Video Game Songs BROKE This Music Professor's Mind

[00:00:00]Hey everybody, what's up? Uh, today on another episode of Non-Gamers, I have my friend Rachel Huckenberry, who is a French horn extraordinaire. Why don't you tell everybody like 90 seconds what you do, who you are, >> Marco, it's so great to see you. Uh, we were just reminiscing about how we went to grad school together. So, uh, I'm I'm Rachel Hockenberry and I am the, uh, French horn professor at Illinois State University in Bloomington, Normal, Illinois. I've played French horn since I was 11 years old. Um, and I, um, you know, in addition to to my teaching, I do a lot of performance work. I play in a lot of different orchestras, uh, both in, uh, Illinois and also in Southern California because I spend a lot of time in in the LA area as well. I was just playing with the Santa Barbara Symphony this last weekend. So, uh, I have a kind of prolific, uh, freelance career that spans across a lot of different parts of the US.

[00:00:57]>> That's actually really hard. I mean like I mean how many cuz what there's four French horn uh like members per section.

[00:01:04]>> Yeah, typically.

[00:01:05]>> That's amazing. That's really hard to do.

[00:01:08]>> Yeah. Thanks. No, it's like you know building a a freelance career is it as as you know and as all musicians know like it it takes a long time and and requires a lot of patience and resilience. So I I feel really lucky that I'm I'm able to do what I love for my career. So, French horn since 11, like has it ever waned? Like that love for French horn or is that probably one of your constants?

[00:01:33]>> That's such a a good question. Like, it's definitely not constant. There are definitely weeks of my life where I am like I don't want to look at this thing, you know? It's like anything like when you even though it's something you love, it becomes your job. And we all need vacations from our jobs, right? Um, so yeah, there are certainly um times where I would uh rather not be um practicing, [laughter] but but I always take some time off every year. You know, I always take at least a week off playing during the summer and um you know, try to make sure I I have a lot of hobbies, too, which is why I think what you're doing is so cool. Um because I think it's so important to just have other things that you're interested in and that bring you joy and can kind of get you away from that for a little bit. You know, honestly, when we were in grad school, I I was already sort of on the my it was kind of like just keep doing it. You've been doing it for x amount of years, like, you know, but but I I I think I saw the writing on the wall much much much earlier than I anticipated. So, I think it's good to sustain and and and do this, but I but I I wasn't going to pursue anything related to music ever again. And it wasn't until this channel sort of accidentally on purpose blew up, you know, that that I was like, "Okay, like I guess I get to talk about music again." And it's been it's been fun to to be able to talk about music from an emotional perspective.

[00:02:52]>> Yeah.

[00:02:52]>> And then of course have like amazing guests like you who you know are still like deeply entrenched in the music world and also can understand the ins and outs and the complexities. I mean what does it feel like to be you know the French horn the the most romantic of the brass instrument? You said your partner is a tuba player. That's too bad for them. You know what I mean? Because [laughter] it's not the same.

[00:03:13]>> They play a lot less. Yeah. horn evolved in a different way than the other brass instruments, which is kind of why we, you know, we play more than the other brass instruments in the orchestra. You know, we I won't get too deep in the weeds, but like we had a way to create more pitches on the instrument before the valve was created. So, we we were able to play melodic material before the invention of the valve, which an instrument like the like the trumpet wasn't able to do. Yeah. I mean, we get all these cool orchestral parts um in in everything and uh you know, movie composers love us. Um >> yeah, we we get all the coolest stuff to do. So, it's really great, you know, and the horn just has um for if audience people who don't know, like we use the term French horn and horn interchangeably. So, when when I say horn, I mean French horn. So, yeah. I mean, we just we get all the coolest stuff to do. So it it can be really high pressure because you know if you're playing something like uh Princess Leia's theme from Star Wars like everyone knows that. So like if you miss a note, everyone knows you miss the note. [laughter] Um but you know it's cool. We just get so much cool stuff to do.

[00:04:27]>> That is like a very interesting challenge I think for for soloists in an in an orchestral uh nature of an orchestral nature because you know you're part of an ensemble but then you have these these breakout moments. It was always an interesting dynamic to sing with an orchestra, which is still like probably the thing I miss the most.

[00:04:43]But like we were soloists and the orchestra was essentially the accompaniment, which was a different kind of pressure, but I I imagine like a John Williams, you know, Jurassic Park main theme or something or or Leia's theme, of course. And it's like you got to stick out and you got to go right back into that into the blend of the rest of the orchestra. I mean, that must be like very high stakes.

[00:05:02]>> Yeah, it's super high stakes. I prefer not the solo stuff. I I like to be like second chair horn or fourth chair horn where it's first chair does all the solos and I'm I'm here to support you.

[00:05:14]You know, [laughter] >> I also think it's cool like just how how how much the French horn well or the horn has been around and and how many years the French horn has been around and like cuz you're you're talking about that and it made my brain sort of spin and it's like it's true. I mean I suppose the bugle and and the horn are probably the what the oldest or the horn is probably older than the bugle even.

[00:05:35]Probably. Yeah, I mean they all just kind of evolved differently and like actually a a version of the trombone has been around for a really long time. Um, but it just like for whatever reason didn't catch on in the same way because we had I should have had my horn next to me, but you know, we we stick our hand in the bell. Now it just kind of rests there and and helps the instrument play in tune. But um in in like Mozart's time, they would open and close their hand in the bell in various ways that would create um different pitches that are not able to be produced um on just a what we call a natural horn or a horn without valves. So that's how they were able to produce like actually play all the notes and play melodies rather than just playing like a C and a G and then another C like a bugle would be able to do. So like when you hear uh taps on a bugle, all those notes are notes that are able to be played just on a tube that doesn't have any buttons that you push down. Whereas the horn had this other method that they could do. So that's why like Mozart wrote a concerto for us and Beethoven wrote a sonata for us. these these composers from the 1700s uh you know where they they weren't writing uh for the trumpet um in in that sort of way.

[00:06:52]>> That's so cool.

[00:06:54]>> Does does you do you get tired like having to like do like marchy kinds of music or like sort of like very brassy, you know, brass heavy pieces that tend to be, you know, very structured?

[00:07:03]>> Yeah. So, uh for Frenchorn players, marches tend to be uh like the worst thing in the world to play is a John Phillips Soua march. Uh [laughter] because the the horn has a really boring part in those. We just play off beats, right? So da da. That's what we do the whole time.

[00:07:22]And it's really tiring and you get like no musical satisfaction out of doing that. [laughter] >> I want to first of all uh let me just find this person online cuz they really helped me. Let's see. I looked up French horn video game music.

[00:07:37]>> [laughter] >> The person that came to came to me first was well there's two people. One her name is Alana Yei and she does a lot of Okay, so you know this person.

[00:07:46]>> Yeah, I I've met her once but I know of her. She does a lot of the stuff on Twitch. Yeah.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah. A lot of covers and so thank you to Alana for like literally making content about the French horn and that helped me a great deal. And then there was this other really cool thing by Sheets for Brass on YouTube as well.

[00:08:04]This is amazing. just like I was able to check out like like solos for students or otherwise for like various kinds of you know not normally for French horn solo that I thought was awesome. So I So I'm I'm going to defer a lot to Alana's sort of history cuz it's you know I know a couple but you've played in how like two video game music concerts.

[00:08:26]>> Yeah, two uh one one was just like a a greatest hits sort of thing. Uh, and the other was uh, Stardew Valley Live in Concert.

[00:08:36]>> There's a game called Skyrim. Have you ever heard of Skyrim?

[00:08:38]>> I've heard of it. Yeah.

[00:08:40]>> Skyrim has some Jeremy Soul has some truly sumptuous orchestral writing and some really, really, really beautiful.

[00:08:48]Watch it be like trombone. Um, [laughter] some beautiful French horn. There's one track in particular called Far Horizons, which is like, you know, Skyrim is one of these open world games. Open world meaning you kind of go wherever. and and it's of course in the area of dragons and medieval and very Nordic feeling I guess you know you're kind of exploring a forest and there's snow and so this is far horizons it's it's definitely one of the more I mean people lost their their husbands and wives to Skyrim so I mean you >> [laughter] >> Heat.

[00:09:52][music] Heat.

[00:10:05]>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[00:10:28]Heat.

[00:10:36][music] Heat.

[00:10:48][music] Heat.

[00:10:55][music] Heat.

[00:11:09][music] Heat. Heat.

[00:11:51]Heat. Heat.

[00:11:55][music] Heat.

[00:12:07][music] Heat. [music] Heat. Heat.

[00:12:28][music] [music] Heat. Heat.

[00:12:52][music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[00:13:24][music] >> [music] >> Heat up [music] [music] here.

[00:13:53]>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat up here.

[00:14:12][music] What do you think of that piece?

[00:14:41]>> Cool. Yeah, I thought that was awesome.

[00:14:43]The horn there is interesting because it starts off super quiet and then it kind of builds in the middle when when it comes back like how how much is like like a piece like this like how much emotion it are you as you're cuz I actually don't know this like as you're playing obviously you're thinking of the mechanics and trying to not accidentally go off key or flat or sharp or whatever.

[00:15:04]Are you also thinking about like how to express a leap like that? Yeah, I was thinking about that as I was listening to it because it's um it's quite high uh in in the horn's range. Um it it's not too high, but it but it it's in that kind of like prime what we would call like the soaring register of the horn.

[00:15:22]Um a lot of solos get written in that register because it just rings out of the instrument really well. But the way the French horn works is that the higher you get in the range, the closer I'm trying not to get you technical about this, but like the closer the the harmonics are. So it's it's easier to miss notes. The higher you play on the instrument, the more likely you are to miss notes. So, so you have to balance this kind of really intense focus because you have to focus really intensely to to just make sure you're going to hit every note exactly the way you want to while also trying not to get too in those weeds so you can still play expressively.

[00:16:02]>> Oh my god, that sounds my entire life for 14 years. Yeah, 1 million%. So it's and and uh you know because the upper register of the horn is so kind of dicey, you also don't want to move your body a tremendous amount. So like so much of emoting, you know, is like you watch pianists and violinists and they can move like crazy, right? If we move that much, we're going to miss every single note uh that we play because it it's all focused in such a small area.

[00:16:30]So, it's um you want to your body needs to be free enough so that you can feel that emotion. Uh but you have to really be focused on the technique of it as well.

[00:16:41]>> God, that sounds stressful. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's why I'm saying I don't like to be the one who plays the solos. Yeah, I thought that um was really beautiful.

[00:16:51]What I liked about that example was that for the horn, it was mostly the same melodic material that happened several different times, but it was always paired with different instruments in the orchestra. Uh, which just shows the versatility of the instrument because uh, you know, it got paired with the the woodwinds, it got and halfway through a trumpet was playing in unison with it and it got a different sound and then at the end it was with the strings. And you can just kind of hear the way the the horn is able to kind of seamlessly blend in in all of those different instruments, which is really cool. The horn is such an interesting instrument because of the the color because the color is really rich and it has this real like like I don't know I guess well you'll describe it better than I do but when I listen to it it's a very like earthy almost not to glaze the horn too much but there's this there's this sort of like uh ethereal quality that you normally would find in say like um you know a harp or some lighter instruments that we feel like a real groundedness in that horn and it feels transcendental to like or transcendent to like this heavenly Maybe it's because of like how many ortorials I've heard where the horn kind of plays, but I don't know. I mean, like, do do you do you happen to know like I guess why the horn sounds like that or is it just like a well-written piece does that?

[00:18:05]>> That is certainly part of the answer to it, but it's a few different things. So, um the horn is not um inherently as loud as the other brass instruments. Like it it doesn't produce the same decibel. And there there are a couple reasons for that. one, you know, we put our hand in the bell. Um, that's not we're not covering the sound, but it is it's in effect making the bell a little bit smaller. Two, our bell faces behind us, right? So, what you're actually hearing is a reflection of the sound, not the direct sound. So, the interesting thing about playing the horn is my sound sounds completely different to me than my sound does to you, the listener, because I'm hearing it direct. My ear is right next to the bell, and you hear a reflection of the sound because the sound has to bounce behind me and come back out to you. And that sounds very different than a trumpet bell that's pointing right at your head.

[00:19:03]>> Oh my god, that's amazing. So, that's why it has that. Well, I don't know. I wonder how how that picks up on like recordings. I mean, assume I assume if it's like a if it's an orchestral, you know, format, then the microphones are not going to be pointed in the back anyway. They'll be pointed to up anyway, probably or like around.

[00:19:20]>> Yeah, there there are different setups.

[00:19:22]It just there it depends on and I I'm not I should say I'm I'm not the expert on that, but um there are Yeah, sometimes the the mic will be directly in the bell and that's that's a different thing. So, yeah, just all depends on how it's recorded.

[00:19:35]>> That's crazy though. So that means that the because essentially what we're getting is like a well you say reflection but it's like an echo and so the sound is already sort of like shimmering as it's coming back to the audience in in a live setting. Oh my god that's so cool. I had no idea.

[00:19:48]>> Well yeah and and actually like um horn players get used to actually like when we're in orchestra we have to play a fraction of a second ahead of the conductor.

[00:19:59]>> Really?

[00:20:00]>> Yeah. Um so we just refer to it as like anticipating. Um, but if we play what we perceive to be right with the conductor, it's going to sound a split second late to the audience.

[00:20:12]>> Oh my god.

[00:20:13]>> Yeah, >> that's crazy. So, yeah. So, you guys are actually worse off than I was. And I was pretty worse off. I was pretty in rough shape. But, I mean, I feel like horn that's that really requires like >> Huh. Okay.

[00:20:24]>> This is why we're all very neurotic horn players. [laughter] We're just thinking about too many things.

[00:20:29]>> Well, okay. Well, what other music do you like besides like orchestral?

[00:20:33]>> Oh gosh, I I'll listen to pretty much anything. Um I'm not a huge fan of like country music, but you know, I I [laughter] >> I like a lot of um kind of girl rock music, too. Like Paramore is one of my favorite artists. I don't typically listen to a lot of like orchestral music when I'm at home, you know? I I listen to like if I'm if I'm preparing to to play something, I'll have done my homework of course, but like when playing that repertoire is is your job, that's not always what you want to listen to.

[00:21:06]>> No. 1 million%. Yeah, I know. Okay. Cuz I brought mostly orchestral.

[00:21:10]>> Yeah. Great. No, I love it. I love it.

[00:21:12]>> Okay. Paramore. I'm trying to think.

[00:21:14]Hold on. Can I just You just give me two seconds. I want to just I actually I don't think I've ever heard a Paramore track in my life.

[00:21:19]>> Oh, that's not true. You definitely have.

[00:21:21]>> I have. Okay. I probably have on the radio, right? Oh, I absolutely have.

[00:21:25]Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Okay. Well, uh I can't think of a video game alternative right now. It's fine.

[00:21:32]We'll we'll we'll get there as we get there. Everyone's like, "PLAY THIS. OH MY GOD, THIS IDIOT." Um actually, I brought two pieces from the same composer on accident, which I was kind of really charmed by. This guy, Wilbert Roier III, um has written the main theme for You've heard of Call of Duty?

[00:21:50]>> Yes. So, there's one Call of Duty that actually I started playing because I used to think they were kind of just whatever, but uh this one's based around World War II and the main theme uh always kind of caught me off guard, but I wanted to play this track for you.

[00:22:04]It's called A Brotherhood of Heroes, Wilbert Roier III. Honestly, I I listened to it and I was like, is this a horn? So, I don't know. So maybe >> it'll it'll be trombones and I'll have deeply offended you and and [laughter] >> let's let's go with it.

[00:22:23]>> Those are trumpets. Obviously >> [music] [music] >> Hallelujah.

[00:23:11]>> [music] [music] >> both [music] horns.

[00:23:29]Okay. [laughter] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[00:23:49][music] Heat.

[00:24:10]Heat.

[00:24:14][music] Heat. Heat.

[00:24:22][music] [music] And then it loops.

[00:24:49]>> I thought that was cool. John Philips Susa could never [clears throat] [laughter] >> Well, I mean, it's not every day that the horns really get like a front and center. I feel like usually the horn is like like usually it's trumpets or trombones that get some of this like like real hit.

[00:25:03]>> Yeah, that No, I agree. Um, and what I liked about that, that was not as um high in the register as the first one we listened to. And you'll you'll notice since it was a little bit lower, that was probably at least four horns all playing in unison. Um, right cuz that that register of the horn that that was like right in the mid register, which sounds incredible, like it has that real like rich sound to it, but it doesn't project as well. So you need more people to have that more powerful sound.

[00:25:36]Especially that was clearly like marked very loud, like you know, it was marked to play loudly. That was several horn players all at once producing that sound.

[00:25:44]>> That's such a I'm like fascinated right now because you would essentially get more body from more horns than you would from like a trumpet or trombone playing. Yeah, I see. So So it's almost like even though Oh, that's cool. So, so basically like because of the way that the horn is, you end up getting a a more distinctive sound than you would if it was just the trombones or the trumpets.

[00:26:07]>> Yeah, totally. And um and some of that was you were talking about earlier.

[00:26:11]Normally there's four horn players in an orchestra. Um sometimes for uh movies and video game music, sometimes there will be more, sometimes there'll be six or eight. So I I don't know for sure how many that was, but it was at least four.

[00:26:26]in the reason that there are four horn players in an orchestra is because um it they were written in two pairs of two.

[00:26:35]So kind of like horns one and two would play together and horns three and four would play together. Again, this was before the instrument had valves and that so this was another way for um for composers to be able to get horns to play more notes. Um is they would have two horns in let's just say the key of E flat and two horns in the key of B flat.

[00:26:58]Um and then they would be able to produce more pitches and make chords on on the instrument. Now that the horn has valves and everyone can play all the same notes. um composers like John Williams. So, they write the horns in unison more often to when they yeah just want to produce like a a big powerful sound because it's like, well, we've got four of them here. Let's let's use them and make a big sound.

[00:27:22]>> That's so cool. Oh my god. I feel like this is really your episode and I'm just learning. I'm not really even [laughter] >> No, I'm learning too. This is awesome.

[00:27:31]Yeah. And like, you know, even with my limited experience with video game music, it's like I know that people really love it and I can totally see why. Like that's a very I'm going to be singing that in my head the rest of the day. Like that's a very singable melody, you know?

[00:27:46]>> Is it I mean it it feels simple, but does that mean that's it's bad?

[00:27:50]especially when it has like I just I I rarely hear French horn like usually and I brought some other pieces that are more like string heavy and it's like you know I mean the dominant force of an orchestra of course is the sheer amount of numbers as the string section but it's interesting how I guess did that feel like a piece that more more incorporates horn as the main thrust as opposed to the you know sort of like the accuch on the side you know >> totally yeah it's like you the horn wasn't playing the whole time there they were brought in for a special moment uh for for a special purpose. And like for me personally, that's the type of music where like as I would be counting my rests leading up to that part, I would be like, "Yeah, it's coming." You know, like that's [laughter] the type of of of material you get really excited to play.

[00:28:40]>> You like a blend of the legato beautiful far horizons, you know, Leia's theme, and then this more sort of punchy. Do you feel like every French horn player has a sort of a similar personality where they're like, "Fuck yeah." You know what I mean? Or like because you know, like when I think of string players, I think like it's so elegant.

[00:28:59]You know what I mean?

[00:28:59]>> Yeah. I horn is like we're kind of the the outlier in the brass family where like I think that's the more stereotypical for like the other brass instruments. But but horn I think you have to have some of that as well. again just cuz like we play such a dicey instrument like you have to have a little bit of that kind of like fear fearlessness and like yeah let's do this thing and that particular excerpt that you just played like again I I love stuff like that I I do think if all a composer ever does is write all the horns in unison I I I think that's that can get boring and that's not utilizing the instrument the way that it could be.

[00:29:41]But something like that where it's again like this special moment. That's something that I get excited to play. Um because you're kind of like all working together to to make cuz you want to sound like one giant horn, right?

[00:29:54][laughter] You don't like four people who happen to be playing at the same thing at the same time. So you're you're really working together and listening to each other to create that unified sound.

[00:30:04]It's interesting cuz it's not dissimilar to coral coral stuff, but at the same time, coral stuff was still like the individual kind of a it kind of feels like the horn has like sort of a coral actually kind of like a coral emphasis because of the limitations of the thing like you were just describing, but then also it's neat to hear how like Yeah, that's so interesting. Cool. Okay. Well, all right. I'm learning a lot. Let's go to Destiny. So, Destiny is a game about space. So, sci-fi. I think think John Williamsesque but maybe a little bit more it's just different. This is the main theme from Destiny and uh this features a pretty sure again a horn very predominant uh in the in the center of it.

[00:31:24]>> [music] >> Heat.

[00:31:36][music] Heat. [music] Heat.

[00:31:55][music] Heat.

[00:31:59][music] [music] I laughed because I heard a false start on one of the horns.

[00:32:52][laughter] >> Did you hear that by chance?

[00:32:54]>> Yeah, they came in like two like a couple measures early. I had never heard that before. That [laughter] Sorry, it's it's not funny, but it's hilarious. What did you think of that piece?

[00:33:02]>> Yeah, I thought that was cool. Um I loved that. Uh like as soon as there was like that kind of power chord from the cello at the start, I was like, "Oh yeah, this is going to be good." I horn and cello go great together. There's a a really famous orchestral work by Ricard Strauss called Einhelden Laben uh which translates to the hero's life and it's one of the most famous pieces for French horn players cuz it um the opening is just horn and cello playing in unison this like very complicated stuff and and it's it's very cool. So I I think a lot of romantic composers utilize horn and cello together. So I thought this was cool. I I love it when um a horn melody kind of comes like builds out of the lower register.

[00:33:48]>> It's really fun to play and I think it it does I don't know. I wouldn't say that sounded ominous but but that kind of same vibe. It's like all is not well here, >> you know. Um that that kind of like foroding sense a little bit that I think the horn's lower register produces really well. It's cool because it has that natural stacking as it ascends upward into the heavens, but it like starts from the ground up and then it kind of just like sort Well, let me ask you a question. Like if if someone's listening to a piece of music and they hear some brass and they they can't they can't necessarily identify whether it's a French horn or a trombone or certainly the trumpet's a bit more distinctive, but between the trumpet and between the trombone and the French horn, what are some distinctive factors that people can look out for or listen for? That's a great question and and I would say with this one, if you couldn't tell if it was a horn or trombone, you wouldn't be alone. Um I I think that um the the mid low register of the horn sounds a lot like a trombone. And I and I think that was horn and trombone together in that.

[00:34:54]Um and that's that's where they blend really well. like the the horn and the trombone actually have almost the exact same range, which you wouldn't guess at all because the the horn is typically considered an alto instrument and the the trombone is typically considered a tenor instrument. It's actually called the tenor trombone. It more has to do with the ranges in which we typically play. The horn often plays in like the upper two octaves of our range. So, so while we do have a lot lower notes that we can play, more often you're hearing us uh playing in the mid to upper register of our instrument, whereas with the trombone, it's kind of the opposite.

[00:35:38]You hear them less frequently in that upper register. You're more hearing them in the mid lower register of their instrument. And if I were just to kind of put some like more more [snorts] flowery language to it, I think the horn has kind of a warmer sound, a little bit of a rounder sound, whereas the trombone is is a more like direct and and compact sound.

[00:36:03]>> Huh.

[00:36:04]>> Yeah.

[00:36:04]>> Wow. Okay. That's I swear I didn't know any of this stuff. This is so interesting. Sorry, you're like in professor mode. I didn't mean to be so much fun. And look, if it if we were talking about singing, it would be totally [laughter] >> Yeah. Okay. Fair.

[00:36:19]>> I don't know the first thing. And and for I assume your audience knows this now, but by now, but like just in case you don't, Marco's an incredible opera singer. Like I just I loved I'm going to glaze you for a minute. Like I I just always always love listening to you. I was just so impressed by what you could do. not just your your technical facility, but how great of a musician you are. Um, thank >> I appreciate that. Yeah, it's um >> it's really fun to Thank you, Rachel.

[00:36:49]It's interesting to go back and sort of, you know, assess like, you know, where what I sounded like in grad school, what I sounded like in performance days, what I sounded towards the when I decided to sort of retire and then even now like, you know, how I sound now. and I'll do some covers and stuff and and it it's it's just such an interesting the the music world as you know like as a freelancer like there are so many variables and there's so many ways to carve out a path in music and frankly I kind of feel like I'm just I'm I'm on a different I'm in a different side of the co coin but it's still like a music career which is really bizarre and like you know it's just it's it's great. I mean but yeah I I it's it's cool. I I appreciate that so much. And yeah, no, it's fun. It's fun to talk about music and and so often I feel that people I mean there is an audience for for people to talk about technicality and like and the thing I I was talking with I don't remember who it was now. Maybe it was even my therapist. I I don't remember but it was essentially like composers are composers and composers have are have special skills and are able to create. French horn players, vocalists, string players, you know, we're we're all we all have our proficiencies and we all have our ways to, you know, obviously you were my apparently I still don't really know if this is true, but apparently you were my theory TA, but I mean like so clearly you had an affinity for theory enough to be a teacher's assistant for it. I personally did not.

[00:38:14]Like I was horrible with theory, but that that's because that wasn't where my my interest lied in like the psychological aspects of music. like you know the the the gravitas the emotional weight of like even in the dest to to bring back to destiny like you know when when you when you hear you know how do you find that within yourself and then bring that out now obviously we we can't move our bodies too much as I just learned but it's interesting right how like there is a psychological and emotional element well you and you clarify but like there's a psychological element that goes into maybe the amateur right or like the way that were, you know, you lean into a a certain note, right? It's all that's the nuance that I think sometimes is easy to miss for for maybe non-professional musicians.

[00:39:00]>> Oh, totally. Yeah. Because you um kind of like we were saying earlier, like you you have to be thinking about the technique to produce the sound that you want. But but there there's also an element of like that's the work that's done in the practice room, right? And when you get to the the actual performance or the recording session, you really do just want to be focusing on it's it's like then you you trust the technique. You trust that you've done the work and and then you do just hopefully focus on shaping that phrase and building it, you know? So the way that you you saying that, right, right, we're we're building a phrase versus D, right? Like you don't want to slam the first note and then have no phrase left. So, so you do want to be focusing on what do I want this to sound like and and how do I create that sound? How do I feel that sound in in my heart and in my body and have that be what comes out of my bell.

[00:40:02]>> Wow, that's so interesting. That's so cool. And I think like that's the thing that really always I always have always loved about music is the fact that like you know even phrasing like the idea that like you could repeat a phrase twice but you don't want the second phrase to sound like the first phrase because you've already done the first phrase. So you know it's like a you know you're calling and responsing with yourself or whatever or or or the way that when when you even and I'm sure this is probably more relevant for you but like when you have one note that one note doesn't just sound like one note we take a journey at least. This is all this is the power of music, you know.

[00:40:34]>> Absolutely.

[00:40:34]>> Anyway, >> let's pivot to I actually don't know if there's horn in this, but so this is a two-parter for a series called Monster Hunter. And Monster Hunter is a delightful series of hunting monsters for ecological reasons, of course. You know, we we they're invading. So, the the species are invading and we need to we need to call them. This is a theme um of a of a monster. So, the monster has its like own personality, its own character. It's basically like a character in a movie, but it's a monster like like a Godzilla or something. And then I want to pivot to a very John Williamsesque uh sort of, you know, I think you'll really appreciate it. So yeah, this is Ray Dao's battle theme.

[00:41:11]And I believe there's a horn in this actually. I literally I was like sitting here and I was like horn music, horn music, horn music. [laughter] Just trying to come up with stuff. Um but yeah, this one's dope.

[00:41:24][music] Heat.

[00:41:44]Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[00:42:14]Heat. Heat.

[00:42:22][music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat up here.

[00:43:21][music] Heat.

[00:43:29][music] [music] Heat.

[00:43:55]>> [music] [music] >> What do you think of that piece?

[00:44:09]>> Uh, yeah, that was really fun. I I was laughing at the um the low trombones in there [laughter] just like you know that's um yeah for some of these really powerful like low brass sections like these I can't say for certain what instruments they're using but but sometimes they use kind of specialty instruments. So there's >> um now normally in your like standard orchestra you have two tenor trombones and one bass trombone and the bass trombone's a little bigger. Um but there's another even bigger one called a contrabase trombone.

[00:44:44]>> Um and I suspect there may have been a contrabase trombone in that section uh just just from how low and how powerful some of those notes were. So, oh, it looks like a Oh, and oh, wait. Is the contrabase the one that swoops over the It's like a tuba, but it's all >> So, that that's another um instrument that I was I also suspect might have been in here. That that one's called a chimaso.

[00:45:10]>> But you're right, the the bell um goes instead of going up, it it's more Yeah.

[00:45:15]directional. Points right [clears throat] at you, which >> is [laughter] huge.

[00:45:17]>> Um Yeah.

[00:45:19]So yeah, just just with how kind of like comically loud and powerful some of those low notes were, and I mean that affectionately. [laughter] >> Yeah, I was like, I bet there was a contrabase and a chimaso in there. Yeah, but the the utilization of the horn in that was really cool. It it was a little more subtle like the the orchestration of all that was really thick like like there were a lot of instruments. They were all playing at once, but the horn was almost never playing with the other brass. Um, you know, the the low brass were doing those hits. The trumpets were doing more of a kind of technical like fanfarish sort of stuff. The horns were often playing with the strings. Um, they they would be playing the melodic material with the strings and then would kind of break off at the end into some like power chords, which is really cool.

[00:46:06]So, yeah, it's, you know, the the composer clearly knows how to utilize the horn really effectively, which is cool. so much fun when you hear like the I mean do you have a a preference when it comes to like is sharp stuff like that more interesting sometimes or is it just it depends on the piece like what what's sort of like I guess for a horn player like what's your what's your desired now everyone's different obviously but what's your desired sort of like musical writing? Yeah, I think um that type of writing um is fun to play for a while. Um but it it does get physically tiring like like playing especially when stuff is like very loud for long extended periods of time. It can be physically very tiring to do. So it it depends on is like is the whole piece just really loud playing like that? then the the novelty wears off a little bit and and you have to go a little bit into like survival mode like okay how do I get through this without uh you know making sure my technique is still good making sure I'm not you know because the our our mouthpiece is just made of metal and we press it against our face right and and um you you want to make sure you're doing that in a safe way and that's not going to lead because we can injure these these muscles and the tissue here and that can be really problematic. So, uh, when when you're doing a lot of like loud playing in the in the mid and upper register, that that can kind of be the danger zone for that. Um, so you do have to be careful. Um, and and you don't you Yeah, when a composer writes in that too much, it's a little like, >> oh boy, like I how am I going to get through this? Well, especially if it's a full, let's say it's a, you know, a full concert event and there's, you know, piece back to back. It's like, okay, like five minutes maybe. But I mean, I imagine, you know, it's funny because when I was in undergrad, we had to take like classes, you know, for for, you know, studying other instruments, at least getting some understanding of how they worked. And I remember it didn't matter what it was. Actually, it might be a a brass allergy itself, but putting the the metal up to the the vibration actually is really even that alone, it can be very if your lips are not trained in that, it's like it kind of hurts actually.

[00:48:32]>> Yeah. I mean, you have to um you have to build up the endurance to do it. And yeah, you know, obviously that takes many many years to do and and to be able to do that, but it's also like playing loudly.

[00:48:48]You can't really play soft with bad technique. Like you have to have good technique to play soft and and have it sound good. Uh you you can play loud with bad technique. Like any [laughter] anyone can pick up a brass instrument and make loud sounds on it.

[00:49:04]>> Yeah.

[00:49:05]So, like that's that's why I say it's a it's a little more dangerous because you you have to really be checking in and going like, "Okay, am I producing this sound in a safe, efficient way that's going to, you know, make sure I'm not injuring myself here?"

[00:49:18]>> That's super cool. That makes a lot of sense cuz it's it's very easy to injure yourself with anything. I mean, even even singing too loud. Ah, you know, I do that too many times. that this is the thing that I think like it's very easy to to not think about like the the little in between processes of like creating music and becoming proficient at an instrument like that there's years and years and years of skill and training and and understanding and it's an amazing thing. I mean, when I, you know, I was thinking unrelated slightly to what we were just talking about, but when when you're listening to a piece of orchestra, uh, like an orchestral piece, do you automatically like cuz I was doing it while listening cuz I was like, is this brass or is this horn? I was actually thinking lower in the in the sound font to try to hear where the brass is cuz you know how the I I because of the positioning of the the brass like usually the range of stuff for the horn. I was actually like I was finding myself skipping past the strings and going down to the br you do that when you're listening to pieces.

[00:50:21]>> Uh yeah, I I think so. I think you're you're always kind of listening to Okay, where where's my part? Yeah. [laughter] Um and how it fits in with with everything and and yeah, like to the point where maybe you don't always because horn's not always carrying the melody. In fact, a lot of times we're playing more more like counter melody or harmonic material and stuff. So, so sometimes I'll I'll be more familiar with that before I'm I actually like know what the melody is. [laughter] >> Well, is that is that that's actually a fair point, though? Like, do you find that when you're listening to like a piece or you're in a in a in an orchestra situation, do you find yourself like being open to hearing the other parts and hearing the strings if they're dominant? Like do you view yourself as a part of a whole or do you view yourself as well you probably do because you said you don't like the solo bits but like I feel like it for a long time for me it was like the tenor the tenor the tenor you know but then I never really appreciated soprano singing throughout my career because I was like well the tenor you know it's like such a tener thing to say by the way >> [laughter] >> u do you feel like as a as a part of an ensemble like you you like just like really good orchestral music it doesn't matter what it is >> yeah I would say so and and I think the the most fun in an orchestral experience uh yeah experience is when you can just kind of listen to everything that's going on around you and and be a part of that and and I think that is what is so powerful about being an orchestral musician too is that it when it's working the way it should you're all you know 60 to 80 people on stage working together to create this one kind of unified beautiful and powerful moment.

[00:52:02]The most like memorable performances of my life are when you know that that's happening.

[00:52:09]>> The synergy. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That's cool. All right, let's pivot over to this John Williamsesque proof of a hero.

[00:52:15]Actually, let me ask you a question. So, because we're doing a lot of talking this episode, but it's fine because I'm learning and also, you know, you're you're a really great musician, so you have a lot of insight. But when it comes to I got randomly mad in the car the other day [laughter] as one does and uh not at other people at like just life and as one does. I was thinking about this and like you know how John Williams obviously as a French horn player like John Williams is like done great things for the French horn, right? sometimes I get a little bit grumpy about is the fact that like there are still people within the classical space that feel that you know there's classical music, there's film music and there's game music and we end up siloing these things or or that there's even if no one ever says it, you still kind of feel like are you saying that film music is not as meaningful as or like you know cuz I was I was thinking to myself I was listening to Shopan Doctrines but then I remember someone once being like well Mer is like the peak of the whatever and so like no film or video game music can Trump Mer or Strauss and since you you play everything like and especially you know you're just talking about that that Strauss piece do you feel like there is a delineation like is John Williams like cheaper than a Strauss piece or maybe cheaper is not the wrong word but you know what I mean you understand my question >> yeah I totally understand and that frustrates me to no end that they are treated like um these separate and unequal things >> they are right they are right >> yeah even from the standpoint of like the rehearsal schedule for an orchestra.

[00:53:44]So, normally for what's typically called like a a masterworks series, which is when we would play the Mozarts, the Beethoven, the Strausses, like um >> those um concert sets will get more rehearsal time than a concert set that's all John Williams music or if we're playing Harry Potter 7 live to orchestra. like those will only get two to three rehearsals where whereas uh master works would get like four or five rehearsals and and that always drives me nuts cuz it's like this this music is not less important. In fact, this music is going to get a bigger audience and more people know this music and so and it's hard like it's it's not any less challenging to play most of the time.

[00:54:35]You know, sure there's an outlier here and there, but like um yeah, why I I hate that the classical music world in general still treats like silos them as you say or or treats them like it's it's not serious music. Like it is serious music and it's music that people love and is going to get people in the door.

[00:54:59]like, you know, these two video game music concerts that I've played, full houses, energetic audiences. [snorts] Why wouldn't we want that? Why Why wouldn't we treat that as something that's valuable and important and that we should give the the same weight to >> Yeah. I don't know. I I don't know why because, you know, my dream is like just combine all that [ __ ] >> Yeah. just put John Williams, you know, in in a in in a program of Mozart. Like, why are put put, you know, video game music in in a mixture. Not obviously not every piece, but like but there's plenty of pieces that like can work that don't have like, you know, or or that that don't have like um you know, electronic components or synth components that you can mix and match. And I and I I don't know why that is. And the thing is is like it's so subtle, but it it's like it's like the slightest bit of like elitism that I still think now to be fair, Mer's symphonic works are, you know, Strauss's symphonic works are truly like, you know, next level.

[00:56:05]>> Yeah.

[00:56:05]>> But that doesn't mean that they >> I guess that that's the the question, right? Like where does it how does someone derive an emotional connection?

[00:56:14]Is it is is it is it coming from Harry Potter? Therefore, there's more emotional connection cuz they know the movie and so then naturally they're more wanting to go and watch the symphony play. I don't know. Like it's obviously it's a nuance question, but I just I don't know why we do that.

[00:56:29]>> Yeah. Well, and it's uh, you know, just to use John Williams as an example, like John Williams was hugely inspired by so many of these composers and you can like if you're familiar with a lot of the standard classical repertoire, you can be like, "Oh, he he ripped off Brahms a little bit here." And like, you know, so it's like, yeah, to your point, like why not put some of those things on the same concert? like here's these John Williams pieces you love and here are some other pieces that inspired him and that you can hear the similarities in these pieces. Um yeah, that you know like find the access point and then say here's some other cool stuff that we think you would really like too. It it's like it's like working an algorithm, right?

[00:57:10]>> Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Well, that's so interesting to me. I remember I I did a I went to a concert in DC. It was right before the pandemic and like they got done with the orchestra and the guy was like we came to you now you come to us and I was like you missed the point >> you know you missed the point. Yeah. I mean in theory yes we played video game music now come see the classical music.

[00:57:30]That's true but but even then and this is kind of my problem with like you know I'm okay with video game music concerts.

[00:57:36]Obviously you've played in two of them.

[00:57:38]They're becoming bigger and bigger.

[00:57:39]There's more and more of them. I think that's excellent. However, they're still separate, >> right? Yeah.

[00:57:45]>> So, when do we start to bridge the gap where it's like, let's play some World of Warcraft music in a concert with with with Strauss? I mean, like, what's the problem, you know? Especially if they're like basically the same.

[00:57:55]>> Yeah.

[00:57:56]>> I don't know. Anyway, Proof of a Hero, uh, Proof of a Hero is [laughter] um as John Williams as you can get, and it's just it's just a delight, and there's like literally like 15 variations of it.

[00:58:07]It's just it's a dream. Uh, I think you'll enjoy it a lot as a as a horn player, or at least I will enjoy listening to it again. So, [laughter] Heat.

[00:58:17][music] [music] [music] Heat.

[00:58:39][music] >> [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat.

[00:59:02][music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat up here. [music] Heat. Heat.

[00:59:31][music] [music] [music] Heat.

[00:59:59][music] Heat.

[01:00:13][music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[01:00:41]>> [music] >> Heat.

[01:00:51][music] Heat.

[01:01:01]Heat.

[01:01:22][music] Heat.

[01:01:29]>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[01:01:44][music] [music] Heat.

[01:01:57][music] Heat.

[01:02:09][music] >> [music] [music] >> If I didn't know that wasn't John Williams, I would have been like, "Oh, John Williams composed for video game.

[01:02:31]That's cool."

[01:02:31]>> [laughter] >> Well, I mean obviously it has like so many similar tropes to John Williams, but like were there parts of that that were really appealing to you as opposed I mean the god the motif is just like so good. So it's funny cuz this plays when you're like up against the wall and the the the the like you have like a timer basically for each of these monster fights and they get quite difficult.

[01:02:51]This is like basically like proof of a hero is like the hunter's theme song that plays as like your like right before you kill like the big giant like you know the main battle monster of the of the game and so it's a real like there's a lot of heart and soul in it but did anything really stand out to you there?

[01:03:08]>> Yeah, that that's really cool to know that actually cuz that um immediately makes me think of Sig Freed. Um there's this uh series of of Vagner operas um and and the um you know the ring cycle and the one of the main characters Sig Freed is like the hero and at one point he slays a dragon and when he's slaying the dragon the the there's a big French horn solo going on and it's it's a >> uh yeah throughout the opera that it's it's Sig Freed's um uh like little motive throughout the opera. So that's that's very cool that that that parallel is there. Yeah. And I I think really often the horn is associated with that like kind of dragon slayer type of thing. [clears throat] It it's Yeah. It just is is heroic in I don't know. It just in a way that no other instrument really is. I I think um it brings this sense of everything's going to be okay sort of >> from the outside looking in. There's this roundness that I just feel is so like special with the horn itself. Like there's there's a richness of the of of color and because of the bell obviously, but like there's there's just that feeling of well I guess it's no different than what we talked about with the fact that it reflects off the back and then it comes forward. So like the sound kind of like has this rich warm literal like circle of sound that I it's very distinctive and and and you're right in that like when you hear a trombone it does tend to hit and it does tend to be very like not abrasive but it does tend to be kind of direct to your face whereas the horn has that sort of warm texture. It's so unique.

[01:04:48]>> Yeah. The horn is like wrapping you in a hug. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's true.

[01:04:54]>> Yeah. Trombone is like a pat on the back and >> Good job. [laughter] Yeah.

[01:04:58]>> Horn is hugging you. Yeah. Yeah. I liked a lot of the way the horn was used in that because it did have that, you know, the the fanfare type motive which was was all in unison, but then it it did also break the horns up into chords later on as more of a background texture. Um, and so yeah, it was written in a lot of different ways. So like as a player, I would be like, okay, that would be a really interesting part to play as well. It just kind of keep you keeps you engaged in a lot of different ways. Do you like being a part of like the background or Well, I know you mentioned it before, but like it's it's like there yes, there's the solo aspect, but like also you're you're like the the sort of like skeletal structure of an orchestra. Like do you like being in that position?

[01:05:40]>> I do. I I personally really enjoy that.

[01:05:43]And I think a lot of that's like part of the fun of of being in the orchestra.

[01:05:48]Like I am more often in that position than I am in the solo position. It's two different jobs. like like yes, we all have the job of playing our part well and correctly, but like being in that supportive role, it you concentrate on what you're doing in a different way because like if I'm playing uh in the second chair, my main job is to make the first chair sound awesome, right? A and so I'm trying to blend perfectly with them, play perfectly in tune with them, playing that supportive role so that they can focus on whatever it is that they need to do and just kind of lay that foundation. Yeah, it's a totally different feeling than playing a solo or playing melody. Um, but it's really stimulating to me and and really engaging and it's like a putting together solving a new puzzle every day that you're playing and and I really enjoy stuff like that.

[01:06:45]>> That's so cool. Yeah. No, I mean it's so different from I never really enjoyed coral singing. Part of the problem is that coral singing requires a degree of blending which actually has always consistently hurt my voice whenever I tried to do it like and so I naturally pushed away from coral, you know, sort of solo singing always felt like I was actually able to like fully embody my my body and my sound and really produce something that didn't feel like it was trying to be like suppressed or buried.

[01:07:12]I think there's also the nature of having a a larger instrument, but but but having a larger instrument where where it needs that sort of cushion and space to be able to like soar and do its thing. It's such a interesting perspective to hear from someone in your position who is like a part of a hole and that hole is is is quite loud and quite you know powerful but also it has this this necessary requirement to to be like a foundational part of the of the of the orchestral like you know spine which is really unique.

[01:07:43]>> Yeah, it is. And like to in order I tell this to my students all the time like in order to create a collective loud and powerful sound it has to be in tune and it has to be blended together. So like if there had been one player in that horn section who was like playing flat you know it wouldn't have had the same loud powerful sound. It would have sounded disjunct. Um, so you know, you really do have to move as a unit to create that that powerful sound that you're looking for.

[01:08:16]>> That's so cool. Let's go back to a a Wilbert Roger track. This is the one I mentioned earlier. So, this is another another mil I know military theme, but uh it's another military theme called A Cup of Liberty. This main theme is is really neat and and it follows like the trope, but it's also like a parody on the trope of like the military theme.

[01:08:38]So, it's fun in that way.

[01:08:54][music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[01:09:24]>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[01:09:45][music] Heat [music] up here.

[01:10:13]>> [music] [music] >> Heat.

[01:10:51][music] [music] Heat.

[01:11:05][music] Heat.

[01:11:15][music] Heat.

[01:11:27]Heat.

[01:11:32][music] [music] Heat.

[01:12:01]>> [music] >> I could just see myself like really getting pumped up before that first entrance coming it. It's like, you know, it's in that like we mentioned this earlier to a few times. So, it's like when it's in that kind of mid register and again, you're hearing like all these horns in unison somewhere between four to eight horns playing playing all the same thing all at once to to create this powerful sound. Um, really fun and really singable melody. It's going to get stuck in your head. Um, like that sort of stuff is really cool. What I will say is like going kind of what I was saying earlier like from a player perspective and this is not a critique of the music itself at all. Uh but from a player perspective at a certain point when you're just playing unison all the time it's like can he break can they break into chords at some point? Like can can we put a harmony in there? You know just to just to spice it up a little bit. But yeah still like like very fun, very enjoyable to listen to.

[01:13:14]Very enjoyable to play. I mean, you definitely make a good point where it's like sometimes when when a composer is trying to get across a mood, they may just be like, "Okay, well, we want definitely want horns in here. Let's just default them to this and then, >> right, >> and that's where they stay, which which is effective, >> but I imagine as a player, you're like, okay, >> yeah. Yeah. Okay, we get it." Like, or like maybe on the fifth run through of it or something, you just like add in some harmony anyway, just to like, you know, keep your like keep yourself stimulated.

[01:13:45]>> [laughter] >> But yeah, no, still like I I would have a really enjoyable time playing that.

[01:13:49]>> You know what? I kind of want to do this. So, I've never actually heard this track, but it looked like there might be French horn in it. But either way, it'll be fun to listen to and then we can both talk about it cuz I've never So, this actually by Danny Elfman Before Christmas. I did not know that.

[01:14:02]Uh, and this is the fable main theme.

[01:14:04]So, I guess we'll listen to this together cuz I don't I don't even know what's going on here.

[01:14:26]Oh yeah.

[01:14:49]>> [music] >> Heat.

[01:14:53]Heat.

[01:14:57][music] >> [music] >> Heat.

[01:15:14]Heat.

[01:15:16][music] Heat.

[01:15:31][music] Heat.

[01:15:38][music] [music] Heat.

[01:15:57][music] Heat.

[01:16:13]>> [music] >> Heat up here. [music] [music] Heat [music] up here.

[01:16:47][music] [music] Heat [music and bell] [music] up [music] here.

[01:17:34]I thought that was really cool. I think from a player perspective, I would have really enjoyed that. Um, because there was a lot of different stuff going on.

[01:17:44]It had the the recurring theme of like here's a bunch of horns playing a thing in unison, but it also broke into chords. um and and had more interesting things going on. And um you're you're playing with um with different parts of of the orchestra. It also has an element which I haven't talked about yet, which is the infamous uh French horn rip. Um >> yes, I was I was just about to ask you.

[01:18:09]Yes. Tell me about the riff.

[01:18:10]>> So a rip is is like the wap, right?

[01:18:14]Right. Where there's kind of that like very fast series of notes before you hit the actual note. John Williams writes those all the time is is in movie music everywhere. Um and it just sounds cooler on the horn. [laughter] Like all the all the brass instruments can do it. It just sounds cooler on the horn. So they write it way way more often in in hornw writing and and there were some really great ones there.

[01:18:38]Again, if like if a composer does it all the time, then as a player you're kind of like, "Oh, okay. I get But like that was an effective number of times because [laughter] it was like enough for it to be cool and and stand out and kind of make a point in the music and and that stuff's really fun.

[01:18:55]>> I mean, the whole thing is kind of It's interesting how we took the main theme and then just like placed it in different scenarios. It kind of feels like if you were like to do like a montage of like all the the different things that happen in Fable to the main character or something. You're just kind of putting it in different circumstances, which I really enjoyed.

[01:19:13]Like there was there was that middle section that was like very Danny Elfman Nightmare Before Christmas very like holy what what the hell is going on and then you get the like sort of like slight like like momentum with it sounds like a horse galloping and stuff. So so it's amazing how we go on this journey through basically the trials and tribulations of heroicism and what it means to like choose to be a hero and navigate those things and uh yeah it was fun. I mean it's actually kind of caught me off guard. I didn't expect it to be so enjoyable. Like it was really nice theme.

[01:19:43]>> Do you know like I I definitely didn't know that Danny Elfman wrote any video game music. Are are there is there crossover between film composers and video game?

[01:19:54]>> There can be like Han Zimmer has written some. Michael Joino has written some. Um but in general it really doesn't happen all that frequently. There's also been some really interesting crossover with like Christopher Tin who is you know a wonderful modern American composer and and actually what's funny is that he wrote music for civilization Baba Yetetu is one of the famous ones Dalad is another famous one but he actually while his music was playing the head of Washington National Opera heard it heard her her son playing it and she goes hey who is that and the son goes Christopher Tin and so he actually wrote the most recent ending to uh Puchini's Turan dot uh because of a a commission that you know that came from being a video game composer. Um which is crazy. Yeah, there's not a lot of film composer crossover, but when it happens it's it's kind of interesting. And this Fable is an older game. Uh and the games that uh Michael Jakino and Hans Maro are also pretty old. So I haven't seen a lot of modern, but again it's siloed. You know what I mean? Like it's like, you know what's crazy is that like video game music and film music, like more so video game music in a lot of ways because it's so melody reliant, >> it it really is like to me the forefront of the like modern like composer dream.

[01:21:10]Like I can't like I wouldn't want to write for modern classical cuz like you like even like cuz there's too many like barriers whereas like here you kind of just throw whatever in you want and it just it just works. I mean we've listened to a bunch of stuff. Has any of this sort of surprised you or caught you off guard?

[01:21:27]>> That's a good question. I definitely didn't know like how present horn was in in a lot of these things. It you know it's like it's really cool. I mean, just as I can only imagine being present for when the orchestra became the vehicle for movie music and and now like so that's kind of like what's happening to me in this moment is like really seeing, you know, I I had like a small taste with these couple of video game concerts that I've played of just being like, "Oh, I think this is like a thing. I I think this is kind of a big deal." But now it's like it's really neat just like seeing how big of a role the the score plays in these games I think is really cool. And I can you know I haven't played a video game like actually my partner and I have one of those systems where it's like the original NES and the Super Nintendo >> those things all wrapped into one. So like I play Mario 3 sometimes. Um, but that's like [laughter] my video game experience, you know, and this is like a a a whole new world. So, just to see how important the score is is really cool.

[01:22:37]>> Yeah. The responsibility of the music is it's interesting because obviously you can't have a video game without a game, but also like you so you need gameplay, you need visual obviously. So, there's that component, but often times the music because the context ends up being super vitally important to the plot and everything. A lot of times the music kind of doesn't get its flowers because it's in the background. And it's one of these things where we haven't really talked about context very much. Maybe proof of a hero, but like what I find interesting is that you know a game has bad music, but you won't necessarily know that a bad game has great music, right? Because of the the nature of like the vehicle. Like like a your average gamer does not necessarily sit down and think about like the music and the how important that is to setting the scene and so on and so forth. So, in some in some ways it's good and bad because the the music is awesome and important and cool, but if you're not playing the game, you're not going to know the music's good. So, you know, it's just an interesting dance. And also too, like I mean, if you think about it, Super Mario 3, you know, is is old. like and the fact of the matter is that like we went from that style, you know, chip tune, uh, then we went to MIDI, you know, and then and then now we've kind of done this big circle where we're mixing and matching, you know, we're using orchestra, we're using and not every game does that, of course, like there's I mean, I haven't really played you anything outside of the the scope cuz I find the conversation about horn interesting, but like, you know, there's so much there's so much. There's EDM, there's classical and EDM, there's pop punk, there's rap, there's there's hardcore. It just doesn't it just depends on the game.

[01:24:14]>> So, it's interesting how like, you know, I can play you eight tracks from a variety of games, but that's barely even scratching the surface. It's just that I wanted to have a horn episode and, you know, because you said you wanted to join. So, I was like, well, let's make it a horn episode. So, naturally, I'm playing you horn music. But, but yeah, there's tons and tons and tons and tons.

[01:24:33]But now I'm starting to think like maybe I should play you some like maybe I should play you some hardcore metal.

[01:24:38]>> Whatever you want, man. I'm I'm here.

[01:24:40]>> Do you like metal?

[01:24:41]>> Yeah. I mean, I'm not like a a connoisseur, but I Yeah, I do like it.

[01:24:45]>> Maybe I go back to an old classic that I love. Tento song. Yeah, why not? Screw it. This is actually I feel really special though cuz this is the second video I have on my channel that has a million views, which is crazy.

[01:24:56]>> Um I love this song. I love this song. I haven't featured in a video in a while.

[01:25:01]So, just uh yeah, we'll just vibe and then we'll talk about it afterwards.

[01:25:04]>> Great.

[01:25:27]>> [music] >> Heat up here.

[01:25:45][music] Heat [music] up here.

[01:26:08][music] Heat.

[01:26:17][music] [music] [music] Heat.

[01:26:40]>> [music] [music] >> Heat up [music] here.

[01:27:00][music] >> [music] >> Heat up [music] here.

[01:27:25][music] >> [music] >> Heat up here. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat up [music] here.

[01:28:15][music] >> [music] >> Heat up [music] here.

[01:28:34][music] >> [music] [bell] [music] >> Do you like that?

[01:29:00]>> That was rad. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

[01:29:04]>> What I get just like kind of being in the profession and and knowing how these things work a little bit. My first thought was like I hope that organist was appropriately compensated for their services because that [ __ ] was hard.

[01:29:18]>> You know, I have to figure out like so Keyen Church is the is the um the musician, the the composer and the writer, but I'm trying to think about if he actually used an organ or not. I should ask cuz I actually don't know.

[01:29:29]But like it cuz it could very well have been. I actually don't know. I I honestly I don't have any idea how I even compose this.

[01:29:34]>> Yeah, >> it's insane, right?

[01:29:36]>> Yeah, it's insane. If if that was an actual organ like that, that was a that's challenging music. But yeah, that that was really cool.

[01:29:44]>> It's just fun, isn't it? It's just like so aggressive. I you know, there's a lot of crossover I feel like between classical music and metal that I didn't realize that like most more often I I guess maybe this kind of metal specifically, but like there's a lot of crossover there between the classical realm and the and the metal realm.

[01:29:59]>> Oh, yeah. I mean there like Bach was all over that you know like I was like Bach Art of the Fugue like >> of all we've listened to today now obviously we listen to a lot of horn stuff and this was even just a small taste of what's outside of the and this is even a very particular example of like what's out there's so much I guess what are your like main takeaways from this experience >> I think my main takeaways like there's obviously a lot of similarities between video game music or like the type of music we listen to today. Um, and film music. I think there's a lot of opportunity there for more crossover probably just in in terms of like like we were talking about earlier with new ways to approach classical music concerts and things like that. You know, I I I think there's a lot of opportunity there that could be tapped into. I'm just like delighted to learn how present horn is in in a lot of these soundtracks. And uh you know for so long like you talk to any horn player and like ask them what got them into playing horn and they'll be like movies, you know, because horn is so present in so many movies movie soundtracks and and I think every horn player has probably had the dream of like playing horn for the movies, right? Um, and I can just totally see that like video game music being the vehicle for that now and like inspiring a a new generation of horn players from, you know, the what they're hearing when they're playing these games. And I think that's really cool.

[01:31:37]>> Wow. Yeah. I didn't even consider that.

[01:31:39]That's true.

[01:31:40]>> Yeah. I think there's, you know, a lot of people started playing flute when Lizo became famous. You know, it's like it's just wherever people are are having it's like the the access point, you know, it's like, okay, I'm hearing these really cool sounds in these game that I'm playing. Like, what is producing that sound? Oh, it's foreign. Like, that's cool, >> you know? And in truth, I mean, the reason why I even got started down in classical music, not necessarily because of it, but certainly had expo was video games because I was exposed enough to a style of music where I used to when I was a kid, I had um I had CDs of of piano covers of video game music that I literally played so much that the inside the back of it was totally scratched up because I listened to it so much. And so whether or not that was the reason for why I went into musical theater and all this other stuff and then eventually opera like not necessarily but like it still was the thing that at least gave me uh I was at least a little clued in >> right >> to how those things could exist. And that's really you know even for my channel like that's really the scope of it. It's like how do we discover music through appreciation rather than necessarily through doing? And then if you choose to go and do like that's amazing. And like I mean I've I've had people tell me that they've gone to music school because of me and and you know it's like what >> that's so cool >> me you know like the guy on YouTube but but that's such a huge win you know like that we and again it goes back to the idea of like we came to you now you come to us and it's like no we came to you now let's all be a part of the thing together you know.

[01:33:17]>> Yeah. Let's all be Yeah.

[01:33:20]>> That's the the thing that I think sometimes gets lost in the sauce which is sad. Well, and the other cool thing about a lot of these horn melodies in this music, not all of them, but a lot of them were very playable from like they're not super rangy. They don't require like really advanced technique to play. So, if there was just like a horn enthusiast who really enjoyed some of these melodies, like they can probably pick it up on their instrument and play it or figure it out pretty easily. So yeah, I would certainly encourage anyone to give that a try, too, you know. Yeah, just >> I mean, there's certain to be said for like barriers to entry, right?

[01:34:00]>> Yep.

[01:34:00]>> That's cool. I didn't realize that.

[01:34:01]That's fun. So, you're saying I could go buy a French horn and I could probably bust out >> Yep.

[01:34:08]>> Oh, you totally could. Yeah. [laughter] >> Well, thank you so much, Rachel, for coming on and spending some time together and, you know, listening to music. I I I'm glad that you had a good time. And thank you everybody for watching. I hope you learned something cuz God I sure did. Thank you Rachel for teaching us all so much. You're a naturalb born professor clearly and [laughter] I'm so happy that you're doing all this stuff and yeah and thank you everybody and uh yeah we'll see you later.

[01:34:31]>> Yeah. Thanks Mark. Take care everybody.

[01:34:33]R