MORMON Discussion on Pre-Existence, Multiple gods, & Works-Based Salvation

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[00:00:00]Okay, so you believe that we all pre-existed in heaven?

[00:00:03]>> Yes.

[00:00:04]>> Is that what you believe?

[00:00:05]>> Yes.

[00:00:06]>> Um would you say that there was knowledge of other people being there?

[00:00:10]>> What do you mean?

[00:00:11]>> Like let's say okay, if you pre-existed, would you be able to recall knowledge of other people being there?

[00:00:18]>> Um potentially, but we believe in what's called the veil, right? The the same way that that you don't recognize being there before in the same way that we don't recognize it, right? And we believe we believe in it's called the veil. And that's because when we were in the in the pre-mortal life, God gave us a He gave us His plan, right? And so He asked us and He was like He He said, "Would you be willing to follow in this plan?" And He presented it to us, and Jesus Christ, right? He came through, and and He was like, "I will be the savior for your plan." Okay? And so that's that's what we know right now as the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

[00:00:52]>> Okay.

[00:00:54]>> And then real quick, can I let me So, and then Satan, he proposed his plan, right? And so he proposed that, you know, there didn't need to be a savior.

[00:01:03]We didn't need to have our agency, right? We didn't need to have the opportunity to go through this mortal life. And so So that's what we believe in before. And because of that veil, God made a promise to us that that as long as we have faith, right? That's one of the most important principles of the gospel, and faith that God lives, and faith in Jesus Christ, then we will return to Him one day.

[00:01:24]>> Okay, so that's a little conflicting because in Genesis it says that man was created from the dust of the earth.

[00:01:31]>> Yeah.

[00:01:31]>> And that God breathed in him the breath of life and he became a living being.

[00:01:35]>> Yeah.

[00:01:36]>> So the beginning of man was on earth.

[00:01:39]>> Yep.

[00:01:40]>> It was never some type of uh eternal realm where us being humans were in heaven and then we got sent back to earth. That's a false doctrine because we do have a beginning.

[00:01:52]And even in Jeremiah, I think you guys hold to a verse where it says, uh "While you were in your mother's womb, I before you were in your mother's womb, I I knew you." Right?

[00:02:03]Yeah, but that's talking about God being all knowing. He knows the beginning and the end. So, of course he would know his creation because he knows the future.

[00:02:13]>> Yeah.

[00:02:14]So, so we believe, right, that that going back into that point, right, where kind of contradicts. So, we believe in a pre-mortal life. So, I'm kind of losing my train of thought. What was the What was the first point that you brought up?

[00:02:30]>> So, I was saying that it's conflicting because your doctrine is teaching that there was a pre-mortal life, but in scripture it says in Genesis that that man was created from the dust of the earth.

[00:02:41]>> Sorry, I just completely skipped what you said. So, dust of the earth, that's perfect, right? So, we don't believe in creatio ex nihilo, right? Created out of nothing, right? And that's what Genesis talks about, dust of the earth.

[00:02:51]>> Yeah.

[00:02:51]>> So, we believe that our bodies were formed, right? And so, so there's a difference. And that's kind of something that that Joseph Smith brought up a little bit, too, is that that changing created to formed, right? We don't believe that we were just kind of just spawned in, right?

[00:03:06]>> Yeah.

[00:03:06]>> Created, right? Formed out of the dust of the earth. But our spirit bodies were always existent, one eternal round, >> Let me ask you this, though.

[00:03:15]Yeah, okay. Would you say you believe in one God?

[00:03:19]>> Uh no. We We believe that in God, our heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ, who is his son, right? And we believe that Jesus Christ is also a being.

[00:03:28]>> Okay.

[00:03:28]>> So, we believe in the three of them in the same purpose.

[00:03:31]>> Okay.

[00:03:32]>> worship anybody else other than God.

[00:03:34]>> But you would say that they're three separate beings.

[00:03:37]>> Yes, sir.

[00:03:38]>> Yeah.

[00:03:39]Uh okay, well, what about in Matthew Oh, no, John chapter 17 if you want to go there?

[00:03:45]>> Of course.

[00:03:46]You read out of the King James version, if I'm correct.

[00:03:47]>> Uh yeah, New King James King James version, that's fine.

[00:03:54]>> John 17 you said?

[00:03:55]>> Uh yeah.

[00:03:59]Uh let me see.

[00:04:02]Um maybe it's in the beginning. Let me see your Bible real quick.

[00:04:04]>> John 3?

[00:04:06]John 17 verse 3?

[00:04:07]>> Yes. Okay, so Okay, yeah, you could read from verse 3.

[00:04:11]>> Okay.

[00:04:12]Uh how do you want me to what to when?

[00:04:15]>> Up to um Uh up to four. Those two verses.

[00:04:22]>> And this is life eternal that they may know that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent. I have glorified thee on the earth and I have finished the work which thou givest to me. Gave us to me, excuse me.

[00:04:34]>> Okay, the glory that that was given to me, right?

[00:04:37]>> Yep.

[00:04:39]>> And then read verse 5.

[00:04:41]>> And now, oh Father, glorify me glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had I had with thee before the world was.

[00:04:49]>> Okay, so before the world was, he had the same glory as the Father, right?

[00:04:55]But in Isaiah chapter 42 verse 8 8, if you guys want to go there.

[00:04:58]>> Can I Can I real quick can I just add on >> I just need to make my point and then I'll land the plane.

[00:05:03]>> You said Isaiah what?

[00:05:04]>> Uh chapter 42.

[00:05:06]>> 42?

[00:05:06]>> Verse 8 and 9.

[00:05:09]>> So I'm trying to save my page.

[00:05:11]>> Yeah.

[00:05:11]>> Go right back to >> Yeah, that's cool.

[00:05:16]Maybe the bookmark will help, you know.

[00:05:17]>> I know. Well, the it's just the wind that >> Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:20]>> You said 42?

[00:05:21]>> Verse 8.

[00:05:21]>> Verse 8, okay.

[00:05:22]>> Okay, this is Yahweh, right? He's saying, "I am the Lord, that is my name, and my glory I will not give to another." I'mma repeat. "I am the Lord, that is my name, and my glory I will not give to another, nor my praise to carved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass and new things I declare.

[00:05:44]Before they spring forth, I tell you of them.

[00:05:48]So, this is the Father saying that he does not share his glory with no one else. But, in John 17, you just saw that Jesus, the Son, had the same glory as the Father. They both shared the same glory.

[00:06:03]So, they're they're both one.

[00:06:05]They're not separate.

[00:06:06]Because it's not a different glory. It's the same as Yahweh.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah, that's a good point. So, the way that that we interpret the Old Testament, we believe that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah the Earth, you know, the God of the Old Testament, right? So, we believe that whenever it talks about God, that is Jesus Christ speaking, right? We know through in Hebrews 3 talks about how God created the Earth through Jesus Christ.

[00:06:29]>> Right.

[00:06:29]>> Creation was through Jesus Christ. And so, when it's talking about in the creation, right? I created all things, that's speaking of Jesus Christ. So, when it mentions God in the Old Testament, that's talking about Jesus Christ. So, this specifically, I am the Lord is Jesus Christ himself speaking.

[00:06:45]I am the Lord, that is my name, and my glory will I not give to another, right?

[00:06:48]That's >> But, that that contradicts because John 17, the Son is saying that the glory of the Father was the one who had the same with him, that they both eternally shared the same glory. They were never separate.

[00:07:03]>> Okay.

[00:07:03]>> Because even in John 10:30, he says, "I and the Father are one." They're not separate. So, it's a false doctrine in the LDS Church.

[00:07:12]>> No, sir. So, the way that we interpret, right? They're one in purpose, right?

[00:07:16]So, that that word one, right? Means that they are separate beings, but one in the same purpose. And the way that that this is written, right? Have you ever heard of a a Hebrew idiom?

[00:07:25]>> Yeah.

[00:07:26]>> So, they talk about in Isaiah a lot, right? I am the one, I you know, there's none other beside me.

[00:07:31]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:31]>> And so, they talk about that a lot. And this is what we believe is Jesus Christ speaking, which goes along with, you know, that that Hebrew idiom. So, when you go to Zephaniah, right? Zephaniah 2, let's see, I believe it's right here.

[00:07:45]So, Zephaniah 2 says the exact same thing. This is talking about the city of Babylon, right? So, this is a kind of a different phrasing, right? But, it's the I am in there and beside me. So, so it's it's Isaiah is written with a lot of idiom.

[00:07:59]>> we're kind of like pivoting away from another point. I want you guys to hone in on the point that I gave you where the Father had the glory, he does not share with no one else, and the Son says he had the same glory as the Father.

[00:08:11]>> Yep. I I and I'm going to answer that real quick. So, I'm just I'm using a point to to talk about that. Yeah, so um says and then also we do kind of have a time frame. So, after I kind of explain this, I'm going to go over this a little bit, but we do have to head out in just a >> Right. I just want to be quick, bro. You know what I'm saying? Let's just speed through this.

[00:08:27]>> So, in Zephaniah 2, right? Verse 15, it says, "This is the rejoicing city that that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am and there is none beside me.

[00:08:36]How is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in? Everyone that pass pass by her shall hiss and wag his hand." Right? So, Zephaniah, it's saying the same thing. I am in and there's I am and there are none others beside me.

[00:08:48]Obviously, we know that the city of Babylon that it's talking about referring to is not the only city.

[00:08:53]>> Right.

[00:08:53]>> Right? So, when it refers to that, it's talking about idolatry, not literally.

[00:08:58]>> Okay, yeah.

[00:08:59]>> to I am this I am the king.

[00:09:02]Don't worship anyone else. Don't follow anyone else but me. This is my glory.

[00:09:06]Follow me, not them. Not not not >> I think that still doesn't really prove them being separate because it's not biblical where in John 1:1, he says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh."

[00:09:21]You know what I'm saying? John 10:30, Jesus is saying that him and the Father are one. They were never separate. You know what I'm saying? And even like in the Book of Mormon, it says that you guys are saved after all you can do and Ephesians chapter 2 contradicts that.

[00:09:37]Where Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8 says you are only saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.

[00:09:43]>> James 1:8 says you're saved by grace or saved through faith.

[00:09:46]>> Faith without works is dead. But saving faith will give you a fruit. There will be evidence of your lifestyle. But we depend on the finished work of the cross. If we depend on the finished work of the cross, there will be works that come from that. But the Book of Mormon, bro, and the LDS Church says that after all you can do Ephesians chapter 2 overrides that, bro. So you have to throw the LDS doctrine away. It's not of God.

[00:10:10]But it has to harmonize. And Joseph Smith never harmonized. He even had a quote who said that they will become gods. And in Isaiah chapter 43 he says, "There is no other god, nor will there be nor was there before me, nor will there be after me." There's only one god.

[00:10:28]>> I just referred to, right? Where it's idolatry, right? It's not literal. It's a Hebrew idiom, which is exactly what we talked about in the Bible.

[00:10:34]>> Yahweh made it known that he was the only one.

[00:10:36]>> Isn't that the same deception that Satan has said?

[00:10:44]>> [music] [bell]