Roxane Gay Talks 'Hunger,' Romance Novel Writing, And Her Infamous Nemeses

[00:00:00]The one thing that unifies people across political parties is the hatred of women and the um people from every political persuasion assault women and take advantage of women.

[00:00:12]>> Mhm.

[00:00:24]>> Welcome to Reclaiming Roxan.

[00:00:27]>> Oh, thank you Monica. It's great to be here. Thank you really for for coming and being on. I think the first time we met in person, so you tell me. I think we became Twitter friends.

[00:00:36]>> We did.

[00:00:37]>> I think the first time we met in person was when you were being honored at the mothball.

[00:00:42]>> Yes, that is >> and Debbie Milman was there, your wife.

[00:00:46]Um, she wasn't your wife yet.

[00:00:47]>> No, not yet. It was pre-COVID, >> right? Yes. And I do you know I'm sure we've talked about this before that Debbie and my publicist share an ex-husband. [laughter] >> I I love to say that line as often as I can cuz it's kind of amazing.

[00:01:02]>> I I think I maybe knew in the dark recesses of my mind, but that's hilarious. Like the world is small.

[00:01:09]>> It's a small world. Exact. There's there's probably a great title for something in a our shared ex-husband or you know >> Oh, that is a great title, >> right? Yes.

[00:01:20]>> You're welcome to it.

[00:01:21]>> Thank you. [laughter] Thank you. I'll see what I can do with that.

[00:01:24]>> Um but your parents were there.

[00:01:26]>> Yes, they were.

[00:01:27]>> And they were so proud of you.

[00:01:29]>> Yes.

[00:01:30]>> So, it was really um it was actually it was really special to get to meet you in person for the first time with your parents there.

[00:01:38]>> Yeah, they are a lot they are a lot of fun. or now it's just my dad. But um they really have enjoyed coming along and I've invited them. I've wanted them to be there at some of these significant moments in my career or just in my life.

[00:01:53]The moth thing was very fun. Yeah.

[00:01:55]>> Because >> the moth storytellers tell such beautiful and fascinating stories and >> they really the moth itself really prioritizes like the art of storytelling. It's more than just writing and it's really a thinking about the shape of a story and the texture of a story and so for them to recognize my writing in that way was an honor and it was also you know I met Podma Lakshmi's ex >> yes oh that's right they were at our table >> yes they were and I met Padma for the first time >> as well and I just thought look at all these fancy people here [laughter] what is happening so it was a fun Yeah, one of my besties was my date for the night. So, >> yes, my best. He was very handsome.

[00:02:42]>> I know. Very well acquitted and I was like Monica. Yes, >> I know. But alas, he that's for the wrong team.

[00:02:51]>> That's okay though because he's still a beautiful, beautiful man and he had a he was wearing a really nice suit. Yeah.

[00:02:57]And I just remember thinking, what a fine suit.

[00:03:00]>> Yeah. No, he's he's a he's a fine human.

[00:03:02]But I just like getting ready for today.

[00:03:04]There's so many new things that you have going on to talk to you about of your online magazine, The Rumpus, right? Your your book imprint, Roxan Gay Books, >> that you are writing a romance novel with Magic Mike. I mean, Channing Tatum.

[00:03:20]Uhhuh. And so I I want to talk about all the new things, too. But I it felt really almost like to my soul it would feel disingenuous to not start with sort of your work that impacted me >> so much of hunger a memoir of my body.

[00:03:39]>> Oh, thank you. Yes. Um, and I just want to I just want to thank you >> for being so brave and giving words to things that so many of us >> feel, think, and somehow don't know how to articulate outside of the depth of a pain of a of a feeling with that.

[00:04:01]>> Um, >> thank you. I you know hunger was a difficult book to write and people often express oh you were so brave and I was like no no no no I was really scared. It took me a long time to even start writing the book because I was so afraid of making myself vulnerable in that way.

[00:04:19]>> But I remember when I was first conceiving of the book I thought and I've said this in interviews before but I really did think oh the thing I really don't want to write about is fatness.

[00:04:29]And then that ended up being the thing I understood immediately was like, "Oh, that's probably what I need to write about then because the fact that I immediately have this clarity that I never want to write about it lets me know that there's probably something very intellectually fruitful there." And there was, >> but it's also really challenging to write about the body that you're living in, the body that is the subject of public disdain and derision. And it it's so challenging because a lot of times when you write about fatness, people say like if it was really that challenging or really that difficult, you'd do something about the problem.

[00:05:08]>> And there's a not a lot of cultural empathy for fatness.

[00:05:11]>> No, there isn't >> at all. And >> no matter where you fall on the spectrum, >> not at all. And I honestly think in some ways it's probably I don't want to say it's more difficult. I don't think we can compare these things, but I think people who are like on the smaller end of the fat spectrum deal with >> challenges. I think that there's different challenges at each sort of point on the fat spectrum.

[00:05:33]>> And I I think about that a lot [clears throat] because I find that sometimes when someone is I I don't like the word overweight cuz like over what, but um when [clears throat] someone is like maybe 10 15 pounds >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:47]>> larger than they would like to be.

[00:05:48]>> That's chubby. That's like to me that's pleasantly plump. Yeah.

[00:05:52]>> And I, you know, I just think there's a lot of pressure on those people to sort of lose that last little bit to get to some ideal. But then, you know, when you have 40, 50 pounds to lose, people are like, well, you would, you know, you have such a pretty face. And then when you have like 100 or more pounds to lose, if you were even interested in losing weight, people really sort of just dismiss you. They treat you like as if you're not even there.

[00:06:22]>> Or they make a spectacle of you because they're so I think so many people are so just disgusted and so angry at fat people. And a lot of the time I think it's because they deprive themselves.

[00:06:34]And so they resent that there are people who they assume aren't depriving themselves. But most fat people are just as disordered as anyone else, >> which I don't think is a goal. I think it's sad that so many people live in such a constant state of deprivation.

[00:06:51]>> Yeah.

[00:06:52]>> It's just bodies are hard. So yes, back to hunger. It's hard to write about bodies.

[00:06:56]>> Yeah. No, but it's still it was still brave because you could have written it and then you could have said, "I can't do this."

[00:07:05]>> That's true.

[00:07:06]>> I have so many quotes in my little interview map here that really we could just spend all the time me reading quotes.

[00:07:12]>> I mean, feel free. I love hearing [laughter] myself, >> but I just I I want to read this one because I think that it um there are two quotes actually here that just felt like they encapsulated so much. um if there for anybody who hasn't yet read it um and that is I mean hunger is a desire and you don't only have physical hunger you have emotional hunger the story of my life is wanting hungering for what I can't have or perhaps wanting what I dare not allow myself to have >> and those that latter part was so just hit me so deep >> it just hit me so deep.

[00:07:54]>> Yeah. I mean, especially, I think, when you're a woman, >> Mhm.

[00:07:59]>> I think we're oftenimes expected to deprive ourselves and not only of food, but deprive ourselves of authority, deprive ourselves of using our voices, deprive ourselves of being unapologetic or being firm or being powerful >> uh in service of patriarchy really. And h like I think so many of us can just relate to sometimes like the world is of course telling us restrict deprive but no one does that more harshly than ourselves at the end of the day. We are the ones who deprive ourselves the most.

[00:08:38]>> Yeah.

[00:08:39]>> In service of something that we'll probably never get.

[00:08:42]>> Yeah. No, it's um but I think that there is and what you you really sort of pull together so beautifully in the book is is that relationship between the physical hungering, the psychological hungering and the emotional hungering.

[00:08:58]Even though somehow psychological and emotional feel different to me, right?

[00:09:02]>> And they are different. You know, >> they are because like the the emotional hunger is just this this craving, this yearning for satis for this emotional satisfaction to feel fully seen, fully loved, fully appreciated, fully respected. Yeah.

[00:09:17]>> And you know, psychological hunger is just I, you know, it's it's similar, but I find it to be different. Yeah. And then of course physical hunger which you know when you've been on a diet for 49 years or whatever it's just it's constant and you just think if only if only if only.

[00:09:39]>> Yeah.

[00:09:39]>> And I it's surprised me how many people connected to the book over the years and still connect to the book because and how many people in different kinds of bodies. When I wrote the book, I thought, well, maybe a few fat people will find some connection to this book.

[00:09:53]But immediately it was people in all bodies and I realized I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder and that it's just hard to be human. It's hard to be alive.

[00:10:03]>> Right. Wait, say more about the chip on your shoulder. What do you >> Well, because when thin, conventionally attractive women would come up to me during a signing line and say like, "I feel like you were telling me my story."

[00:10:14]I was just like, "Girl, where did you see that?" like [laughter] what what and so it really it surprised me and then I had to ask myself why are you so surprised and why don't you believe this person and you know I realized like we are are all facing different kinds of expectations >> about how we're supposed to be in the world >> and while some experiences might are more difficult than others it doesn't mean that there any of them are particularly easy >> and even men have read the book like five And uh those five men are lovely and you know they also deal with pressures about how to look masculine, how to be physically strong, how to be muscular. And of course there's a more permissiveness for men to live in whatever kind of body they want, but they still live with pressures. And to see people find resonance in the work >> no matter what >> is has been one of the great joys of having the book out in the world. Yeah, it's interesting. I um I just saw uh Death of a Salesman on Broadway.

[00:11:21]>> Oh, Debbie just saw that. I'm going to see it in a couple weeks.

[00:11:24]>> Okay. Well, we'll have to We're overdue for a get together, The Three of Us.

[00:11:27]Anyway, it's interesting because I think what and the performances were incredible, >> but I I sort of had a little bit of a hard time, you know, digesting the messaging of like this is also male, but it's coming up for me right now because I'm thinking about what that >> play reflects so much. What Miller was reflecting was how society puts on us different expectations. And I wonder if with our bodies that's the first thing that people see, right? It's the it's the so wealth you can sometimes see certain things, right? It used to be and and that's the weird thing, right? Where it used to actually be if you were bigger that was the signal that you were wealthy. Absolutely. So like how who the [ __ ] changed that but you know how did that change society? But so that whole thing of of it just the there's so many people connecting to it, it being representative of um like a bulletin board for society. You know, >> you know, one of the things my mom always used to say was you eat with your eyes first.

[00:12:36]>> And that can apply not only to food but to everything. And I that's why we all carry so many judgments about other people and and other bodies. because that's the no matter what that's what you see and it extends to other things like >> I can't separate my race from my gender from my sexuality.

[00:12:58]>> But you are always going to see that I'm black before you recognize any other thing about me.

[00:13:04]>> And so that's always going to be I identify as black before I identify as anything else. And it's because that's how I am perceived in the world first and then probably fatness. Like by the time we get down to the rest of it, it's like well look, I've already heard what you're think about these four things. So like whatever you have to say next is not going to face me.

[00:13:26]>> Um and that's also I think why it's so easy for people to judge each other because like that's the first set of information that we have about someone.

[00:13:35]And for whatever reason, we have attributed qualities to people in different kinds of bodies that may or may not be true >> because people love to talk to fat people about like, "Oh my god, I'm just worried about your health." I'm like, "Yeah, >> worry about your own health. They're drinking McDrinkerson. [laughter] Like, >> don't worry. I'm like, don't worry about me."

[00:13:53]>> Yeah.

[00:13:54]>> So, it's always what I think is interesting, too, and you, you know, I don't want to go into all the details of your trauma from when you were 12.

[00:14:04]Toronto Burke taught me to not ask people to repeat their traumas.

[00:14:07]>> Oh, interesting.

[00:14:08]>> Which I thought was such a beautiful thing. But just that you had had uh to call it an unwanted sexual experience seems mild when you were 12.

[00:14:17]>> I mean, at this point, it's been so long that it's not that I I mean, I'm I'm as over it as I'm going to be. And fortunately, I've had a lot of therapy.

[00:14:28]>> Same girl. And that has helped a great deal such that >> at this point in my life I often wonder was the sexual assault worse >> or the aftermath and I you know I think because you live with the aftermath in many ways forever that is kind of worse than the assault itself which was very bad and so it's interesting to sort of carry that truth. And I've been talking a lot about this in therapy lately. Um there's a bitterness that comes along with that in many ways because >> it's like, oh man, if I had been different, if I hadn't been so young, if I had told my parents, if I had asked for help, if I had known that I should ask for help and that I shouldn't sort of shroud what what I have what happened to me in shame, like what would I have become?

[00:15:28]Like who would I have become if I didn't gain all this weight as a safety protection measure.

[00:15:33]>> Like what would I have accomplished?

[00:15:35]Because I know what I've accomplished in this body. Like what on earth would I have accomplished if I was slender? I mean I don't think people want that scenario because I think I would be president. [laughter] >> So >> I'd [ __ ] vote for you. I >> mean I really feel like I would either be a president or an astronaut.

[00:15:53]Something along those lines. And it those questions are not productive, but I think many of us are plagued by them.

[00:15:59]>> I get that. I get that on so many levels.

[00:16:02]>> Well, if I hadn't if I didn't have to have all of my time and my energy occupied by [ __ ] >> Um, what would my life have been like?

[00:16:12]But at the same time, I also recognized that I wouldn't be the person that I am today if I had not gone through what ended up being a very horrifically formative experience. And it's not like I am grateful for the experience, >> but I don't know that I would want to be any other way in the world than I am now. Like >> that's a really that's like a really beautiful thing. Does that feel beautiful to you?

[00:16:42]>> Um it feels hardearned for sure. like to finally it's I don't know that I'm at peace with myself, but I do increasingly recognize that I'm 51, which I love. I love my age. I am excited about the rest of my 50s and even my 60s and half of my 70s perhaps. We'll see. I mean, you know, day by day, >> but I wouldn't want to do over my teens, 20s or 30s. Those were not super great years. And you know, you learn a lot and you make a lot of mistakes and I certainly had my fair share of fun. And so it certainly is not a story like that's all grim and misery. But >> my 40s and 50s so far have been really good. And >> I don't you know like everything happens for a reason and I don't know that I would want to change the trajectory of my life if it wouldn't end me up where I am today.

[00:17:36]>> Wow.

[00:17:38]>> But it took a long time to get there.

[00:17:39]>> Yeah. I don't I don't think I'm there. I think people sometimes ask me is particularly in the last, you know, five, seven years where things have >> started to change in a way for me and >> that thing of like, well, you know, and it's like, no, I would do it differently, you know. Really?

[00:17:59]>> Yeah, I would. I would. Yeah. cuz I just think um >> it's such a privilege to have a life where >> you get to help ease other people's suffering in some way by by those things and at the same time there's still you know these big pockets of grief for the life that I had wanted. Of course, [clears throat] >> you know, >> I think about like you a lot in that regard because we see like even though it's sort of not really related, but it's sort of related when you look at all these women who were victims of Jeffrey Epstein >> and you are thrust into the public eye and it's relentless and you like you were 19 and that's a child. I remember how naive I was even though I had been through some things at that age and to then be forced to remain in the public eye connected to someone who abused power in such an egregious way and then to have your life tied to that for decades. I get why you wouldn't be over that. I do. It's [music] overwhelming.

[00:19:11]>> Yeah, it is.

[00:19:20]Well, and it's interesting because one of the things that you I think it was in hunger that you talk about is the choice of using the word victim over survivor.

[00:19:30]>> Absolutely.

[00:19:30]>> And I've always been the opposite. But as I was sort of going through our map, it made me realize like I think part of the reason I've always sort of turned toward survivor is because I feel like if I were to say victim, I say victimized, >> but if I were to say victim, it feels like I'm inviting judgment >> of people of do I, you know, because I wrote something about who gets to live in victimville, you know, and this idea of like public stories or or in a community, right? Other people are the ones who say, "No, this person's a victim." No, they're not. you know, and so that somehow it was just really interesting for me to think about. Um, but you came to the choice of victim >> how so >> yeah, I thought I think about it a lot and I I if I were to write hunger today, I might approach it differently, but >> I I use the word victim because it's not a perpetual state at all. I I don't even I at this point in my life, this thing happened. It changed me and I will never be free of it. But it is not the predominant element in my life.

[00:20:48]>> But I think of it in terms of what actually happened at the time. And at the time I was 12 years old and this was 198612, not today's 12. Not that this there's any reality in which what happened would be okay.

[00:21:01]>> But I was sheltered.

[00:21:04]>> I was very Catholic. I didn't know I did know like about the birds and the bees etc. I was not that right >> sheltered but I was sheltered enough that everything that happened like I did not know rape was a thing.

[00:21:20]>> I I had no idea that was a thing that could happen to a person. I barely understood what sex was >> and I was call it dating is >> a stretch because I was 12, >> right?

[00:21:34]>> Yeah. But he, the sort of ringleer guy, used dating as like the like, you know, that we were boyfriend girlfriend, which is the way we sort of referred to it at that age cuz like you're kind of dating by walking back and forth between each other's lock, >> right? Slow dancing at parties.

[00:21:50]>> Like it's nothing particularly elaborate. And we never certainly had any sort of date >> anywhere. And if my parents had even gotten a whiff of the fact that I thought I was dating someone, they would have put the kibash on it immediately.

[00:22:03][clears throat] So I just in that context I was absolutely a victim. It was terrible and it was so overwhelming and it was so compounded by the fact that there were so many of them and that they went to school and told a very different story about what happened. And so all of that in some like I was victimized and I was a victim and I was so young and to me like survivor I I totally understand why other people choose survivor and I think it's very apppropo. I think everyone should be allowed to make the decision that works most effectively for them.

[00:22:41]But to me, I don't want to diminish how [ __ ] horrible it was >> and how unjust it was and how young I was. Like, no, that I was a victim and I don't have any triumphant narrative about it.

[00:22:55]>> And to me, survivor kind of implies like a level of triumph, but I think it's well earned for a lot of people.

[00:23:02]>> I mean, the Epstein the Epstein survivors.

[00:23:05]>> Absolutely. And I recently read um Jiselle Pelico's memoir, >> which first of all, I love a French woman. [laughter] The fact that she has a new boyfriend.

[00:23:14]>> I know. I know.

[00:23:16]>> When I got to that part of the book, I was like, "Girl, what?"

[00:23:20]>> Yeah.

[00:23:21]>> But I loved that for her. I loved that she was not going to let >> what happened to her >> keep her from enjoying love or pleasure.

[00:23:30]>> Yeah.

[00:23:31]>> And the new boyfriend seems like he's amazing.

[00:23:34]>> I know. And it was interesting to read her book and to see the way she would be like, "Oh yeah, my husband did this really disgusting thing to me along along with like dozens of other men."

[00:23:46]But, you know, our marriage wasn't all bad. And then she would proceed to say something that was like, "Girl, your marriage was horrible. He was a terrible husband." But she still gave herself that space for her memories and to and like you could tell like >> she sort of created space to be both a victim and a survivor in that book. And I really admired that because I don't know how she has the fortitude to have been so graceful throughout the public trial and the way that the entire world has been talking now for a couple years about something so intimate and so unacceptable >> and that she was not going to let it hide in the dark was very interesting.

[00:24:32]And so I think about now after having read that book, I've been thinking about like how sometimes you can hold space for both labels.

[00:24:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting cuz I I wonder well two things with her. One is I am really hopeful that I know this is so commercial, but that um some makeup company hires her to be a spokeswoman >> because I think she embodies beauty >> in a way that we don't get to see very often.

[00:24:59]>> Absolutely. She is. She has a very interesting case.

[00:25:02]>> Yeah.

[00:25:03]>> And >> but but her also exactly all the things you're saying of how she's >> also she's sort of embraced this kind of graceful bravery, you know, of all those things. But I also wonder too, you know, I think I imagine this has been your experience. It's certainly been mine that the the pain, the trauma, the shame, all the all the emotions that they're sort of in these um it's like layers around us and we can only see one layer and and we we get rid of that layer and we're like, "Okay, I've gotten rid of this layer." And then >> soon enough, >> lo and behold, there's another layer.

[00:25:43]>> There's another [ __ ] layer. You know, my theory around it is that we all kind of move through as much as we ca like some part of us knows how much we can deal with >> and so we go through that until we're ready to see another layer. And it sounds to me like that's a lot of what she's done of >> absolutely like and I think that's I [clears throat] trauma is complex and no two people are going to experience trauma in the same way and I do believe that the mind is an incredible and powerful thing >> and that our minds allow us to survive the unspeakable >> and protect us in a range of ways. And sometimes the protection is not like particularly I don't want to say healthy in the medical context but healthy in the psychological context >> and but it it's what h needed to happen for you to survive and I think the way that she has understood her marriage >> as he did a terrible thing but we also had some lovely moments and we have a lovely family and not perfect but like that this is these are the people that I belong to and he is now part of my past and he's rotting in jail and that's that And I think that it's her psyche that gave her this attitude to be able to deal with the magnitude because from the outside looking in there's just so the horrors are so compounding.

[00:27:12]>> Yeah. And I I guess in many ways it's like thank God she doesn't have to remember any of it.

[00:27:17]>> Yeah.

[00:27:18]>> But I could see that also haunting someone.

[00:27:20]>> Yeah. you you've written about and and I thought this way too about the before and after, you know, and then also too so many of the conversations that we have on this show are are about the sort of the person that society the story that society has given you about who you are and finding your way to your own story, right? And and I think there's some of that there too with what she's talking about because in many ways it is that thing of yes, there's this top layer narrative that's so loud about the disgusting thing her horrible husband did, >> but she is trying to say we we contain multitudes, right? Absolutely. And it's so I think it's so important for us to be reminded of that in today's world where there's so much flattening, you know, it's just um it's really >> and that's why I think everyone should read her book. Mhm.

[00:28:11]>> I I I love that she was able to tell her story in her own words because so many of us even here in this conversation like I pro projected my opinions on her marriage and her husband >> and which is my right but like what matters more is her opinions like it is her life and no one should try and take that away from her you like that's her life >> and no I don't think anyone wants to look back at their entire life and say oh it was a whole a lie.

[00:28:41]because to her it wasn't >> and I don't know that it was I I do you know I do think no >> no nobody is any one thing >> well and also we change I mean I think about my own >> my own experiences and my [clears throat] relationship to anger my relationship to how I saw you know abuse of power and that it it becomes this strange formula of the amount of healing you've done with how the world around you is changing and what you're able to take in and hold and >> I don't think I had my first like real pain of deep anger for maybe 10 years after everything happened to me. Like I was angry about what the public did or how I was treated or this person said that or the jokes that were told, but I don't think that I was able to really step into >> my recognition of anger towards Bill until >> probably 10 years.

[00:29:36]>> And what do you do with that anger now?

[00:29:38]Oo. Um, you know, it pops up in ways that it's still in there. I don't think I have dealt with the anger.

[00:29:47]>> I think that what I sort of had to do was >> I don't know why this is making me emotional. Um, I think I had to find a way to build on top of it [clears throat] >> because that was the only way I was going to survive was trying to >> find myself and and >> try to find a life and a purpose for myself.

[00:30:13]>> Absolutely. And so I I look at some of the women who've had similar narratives, threads of narratives >> after and that they've they're either able to express their anger publicly or do all these things. And I think, okay, that's that's what we're all working towards, right? The next person, it's it's different and >> and hopefully easier.

[00:30:36]>> Yeah.

[00:30:36]>> And you know, it's just >> this is the thing. This is the reason why I find I mean I think all violence is abhorentt but sexual violence >> is I find especially abhorrent because or even I mean and there's sexual violence and then sexual misconduct.

[00:30:53]>> Um >> yeah cuz mine was not sexual assault. I I have sexual assault. I I don't even I feel like I can't This is what's so fascinating to me, Roxanne, about the the culture we have around this when I sort of ended up, you know, telling my therapist of many years of of of what I was calling this thing that happened to me at camp.

[00:31:16]And she's like, "That's an unwanted sexual experience." And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no. It wasn't because of this and because of that."

[00:31:22]>> And just all the ways that we don't even feel we can step into it.

[00:31:27]>> Absolutely. and to acknowledge like and I run into this a lot with women and even like myself like when you look back when I look back on some of the things in my 20s >> where I have like bent over backwards to tell myself no that wasn't inappropriate but no it was like hella inappropriate >> you like ran off to San Francisco >> a 44 year old man and like >> I and I do write this in the book like he we never he was never non-consensual to me ever he never forced me to do anything but given 20 26 six sensibilities. What on earth was that man doing with a 17-year-old? Y >> like what was he thinking?

[00:32:07]>> And >> we hung out with other people and people didn't really blink. And >> that's why, you know, these sort of sexual encroachments, sexual misconduct, sexual violence, it's so I don't even know what the word is, but it it reshapes you. and in some instances damages you and you can't ever really get away from it because it shapes your react your inter you know like your interactions with men or with whoever the whatever the gender of your assaulter or your sort of perpetrator was and >> you know there's like it feels like sometimes you're always going to be chained to this thing and again it comes back to like would I be able to have a normal relationship would I be able to have normal sexual desires if this thing didn't happen or like what is normal? Am I abnormal? Am I a freak? Like the fact that I still have sex? Like does that make me bro? Like like I deserved it.

[00:33:06]Like there's so many questions that you continue to ask yourself that it just becomes like you think, oh man, you like these things are really horrible.

[00:33:15]>> Yeah.

[00:33:16]>> And most of the perpetrators of these kinds of crimes a get away with it.

[00:33:20]>> Yeah.

[00:33:21]>> And are [clears throat] able to live their lives.

[00:33:25]>> Mhm. Like, yeah, the story might >> Hello. Look at Epstein files. I mean, what the actual [ __ ] >> Can you believe? I mean, every day I think is today going to be I can't believe it hasn't been leaked yet because this White House is leakier than a piece of Swiss cheese.

[00:33:40]>> Yeah.

[00:33:41]>> So, you know, there are some really big names in those >> and they must and it must be both parties. Correct. That is the only thing that is upholding this.

[00:33:52]>> Well, I've been writing around this lately. Uh the one thing that unifies people across political parties is the hatred of women and the um yeah people from every political persuasion assault women and take advantage of women >> and some men quite frankly. I it's not I mean it's primarily women but we cannot >> omit the men who have been sexually taken advantage of and sexually abused and sexually assaulted. It happens. But the perpetrators by far are I don't know what the numbers are, but it's in the '9s. Yeah.

[00:34:29]>> It's mostly men. Yeah.

[00:34:31]>> And this like they have this great unifying thing >> that we're going to do this. We're going to continue to live our lives without consequence. Even when I look at Jiselle Pelico's case, >> it's because France has a reasonable justice system that any of this went to trial. If she had been assaulted in the United States, >> oh, >> the trial wouldn't have happened yet.

[00:34:53]>> No, >> let alone that those men would be in prison and that so many of them went to prison. Like that's where the justice system, it was not perfect, but it worked.

[00:35:03]>> And there are consequences for what those men did and this will follow them for the rest of their lives and hopefully they will never be able to sort of have peace ever again. But when you look at the men involved in the Epstein files, they are across the political spectrum getting away with truly egregious crimes.

[00:35:25]Epstein's Island was as [ __ ] popular as a city bus. Like everyone was sort of hitching a ride down there, including our faves. And I a lot of people really need to grapple with that. like all of our f not all thankfully, but most of our faves were popping on down to to Epstein Island.

[00:35:44]>> And I I do think there's probably a spectrum of what people knew.

[00:35:51]>> I I agree. I agree. And and but I think that there was probably one of those things and and I've done this in situ different not that but different situations where I've I've caught myself and I've still let it go where I'll say I know there's probably something wrong here. There's like this whole thing doesn't add up. The whole thing doesn't pass the smell test but there all these other things that >> that I I consider valuable in the moment that I'll allow myself to not see that.

[00:36:22]So, I think that there's that, but but by and large, there are so many men. And I I think about, you know, it's interesting. I hadn't thought about this until 5 seconds ago, but what I like I had thought of the blast radius, obviously, the collateral damage for those of us who have experienced different kinds of assault. Um, and but I'm thinking about how young they were and what that would have done to people like you who had their that that's a whole other layer >> Yeah.

[00:36:53]>> of connected trauma of just the the the and the >> the re what's the word the um >> retraumatization.

[00:37:01]>> Yeah. Thank you. My I just started estrogen patches and they're not working out. So [laughter] >> I started those about six months ago.

[00:37:09]>> Okay. Highly recommend.

[00:37:10]>> Okay. Good. I'm like, "Let my words come back to me, please."

[00:37:14]>> Yes.

[00:37:15]>> But the retraumatization that happens from the injustice, too. So, it's not just the the hearing the details. It's a [ __ ] injustice.

[00:37:24]>> It's and it's ongoing. I I you know, >> may Virginia Grey be resting in power and may may she still receive justice.

[00:37:35]>> Well, I understand. I understand why she sort of just said enough. I think that you can only tolerate so much >> and what's so gling about the Epstein files, but it happens in every instance.

[00:37:49]We see it in communities with like, oh, the local sheriff was arrested for doing this, the local priest, the local pastor, >> um the local boy scout leader, the local teacher, >> just people in power abuse it. And it's particularly I just think we have to say it, but men in power for whatever reason. And it's not all men, but it's enough that we should be concerned.

[00:38:11]>> They abuse that power in a range of ways, and most of the time they direct it towards women, and most of the time it's sexual in nature.

[00:38:19]>> I think women have been grappling for it as as long as we've been alive. But as a culture, when are we going to draw the line and say enough? When are we going to stop serving up young women and expecting that, oh, that's just the price of doing business, >> right? When you think about all of the power and all these powerful men who are like old, nothing wrong with being old, but you are gross. When you are trying to be a predator with a 13-year-old and you're 60, something is wrong with you.

[00:38:53]you should be shamed forever and that these men are still roam okademics who were like ping around with Epstein and again we see that it's not only power it's wealth which is >> translates into power wealth has smoothed out a lot of this >> where a lot of people were like well I know some weird things are going on on Epstein island But I didn't visit that part of the island and I was only there to get some money for my lab.

[00:39:28]>> Like you are complicit.

[00:39:30]>> You are all complicit. Larry Summers.

[00:39:32]I'm so glad that he is now I I think he has not suffered enough, but he is now professor ameritus and has to had had to which is an honor and he doesn't deserve it, but he's had to step away from the classroom >> because his emails were so benol like oh I'm going to try and make it with one of my mentees and like >> you're admitting this to another person and you're trying to get advice on how to cheat on your wife and [ __ ] your student.

[00:39:58]What I find particularly gling is this idea of okay, this horrible thing happened and the people who were a part of it and now it's been somewhat exposed, not completely exposed. here's this opportunity to to rectify what I mean even though you can never fix what was broken in that way >> and yet no no one who was involved has stepped up and said >> I I'm so ashamed of myself that I was involved with this I don't even know how I can live with myself but I am >> but I am going to lead the the the I don't know parade if you will of of making sure justice happens we We haven't even [ __ ] seen that >> and we're not going to. And I I wrote an essay about this that ended up I just put it on my newsletter, but the number of people that were in those late letters that first of all who had they had a lot of free time >> to be emailing that much.

[00:41:03]>> I am fascinated by that. Like where did you guys find the time to be doing all this emailing?

[00:41:08]>> Nam Chsky.

[00:41:09]>> Mhm. Gnome Chomsky, like you could knock me over with a feather.

[00:41:14]>> All of these people who have claimed moral high ground for decades now, and we find out that they are down in the muck with everyone else, and that not one of them has even have been opportunistic enough to say, "Let me go in a different direction here and be a beacon of restorative justice, even if it's not real, but let me at least purport to advocate for something like that." I'm fascinated by that. And again, it comes back to the hatred of women >> because if it was other kinds of crimes, I suspect someone would have stepped forward. But there is something in our culture that has let these men think, oh, I just got caught with my hand in the cookie jar.

[00:41:55]>> Like, oh, I've been a bad boy. I'm like, no, you've actually been a criminal >> and you're not a boy. You're a old man.

[00:42:02]You're the opposite of a boy.

[00:42:04]>> And so, it just is infuriating. Yeah.

[00:42:08]And I have to believe that someday we're going to see all of the files. But I also think I'm deliluding myself a little because if they haven't been leaked by now, I don't know that I whatever's in there is so incendiary that they aren't going to be leaked.

[00:42:28]>> Mhm.

[00:42:29]>> Because people in power are being protected.

[00:42:32]>> Mhm.

[00:42:33]>> It's a shame. It's more than a shame.

[00:42:35]It's a disgrace.

[00:42:36]>> Mhm.

[00:42:36]>> And it's frustrating. [clears throat] >> I mean, I wonder if in time, decades to come, that we will see a reckoning like what happened in the church.

[00:42:46]>> You know, >> I do think we'll see something.

[00:42:50]>> You know, it just is. But whether it will be in our lifetime or not, I don't know >> that. I don't know. And I also don't know when because we are seeing such a retrenchment of progress right now >> across many different realms. And so right now women are being devalued and I mean we've always been devalued but we're sort of a lot of the gains we had made we're losing those gains. And so I do think it's going to take quite some time to get to a point where people are like oh you know what let's actually protect women. Let's protect girls.

[00:43:25]Let's have a no tolerance policy for sexual predation.

[00:43:30]>> Um, and like let's be consistent about it.

[00:43:42]Do you think if and and I might be getting my timelines wrong, but do you think if Rorow had not been repealed?

[00:43:51]>> Do you think that the Epstein file thing might have unfolded differently that there was something about that happening that was like, "Oh, look, we did it. We we we broke into the house and we stole the thing without getting caught."

[00:44:04]>> I think it would No, I don't think so. I think the thing that sort of the the the sort of turning point or turning moment was Trump being elected a second time.

[00:44:15]>> I think the Epstein files would have played out very differently if Trump had lost either 2016 or 2024.

[00:44:25]>> Like under Hillary Clinton, I I do this is not fantasy. I I do believe we would have seen something >> with regard to the files. I do.

[00:44:35]>> Right. I don't know that we would ever see all I don't know for sure but I do believe we would have seen something at least the performance of >> let's get into this >> not because I don't you know I don't I don't have I don't have any idea about like what bills the extent to which he was involved. So I don't I don't know that that would have happened in 2016 100% had Trump not been reelected in in 2024 >> which yeah the 2024 was really the the >> pushing edge because I also I also think under Kamla >> right >> Harris we would have absolutely seen some movement because like it or not she was in law enforcement.

[00:45:18]>> Yes. And I mean, all cops are are bad, but I do believe that she would have been able to make it one of her marquee platforms >> because she's a woman, >> because she believes in the law, right?

[00:45:32]>> And because it is bipartisan unpopular.

[00:45:37]Like even some of the diehard Republicans are like, "Oh my god, we're not going to do anything about this sex trafficking ring." And when you can get those extreme Republicans and most liberal people and Democrats on the same page, you know, you have gone astray.

[00:45:54]You have made some mistakes. And so the past 10 years have been very volatile >> and very challenging. And again, it we can also it comes back to m misogyny.

[00:46:09]Like this country is really hellbent on not electing a woman, which surprises me. I shouldn't be surprised as a feminist, but I'm I I was surprised in 2016. And >> I was a little less surprised in 2024 because Kamala was also a woman of color. Mhm.

[00:46:28]>> But >> and also I think that there was I don't >> you know I don't we'll never know really. I mean what would have happened had had it been a very different you know passing of the baton.

[00:46:42]>> Correct. And I I am so frustrated by the way that establishment Democrats continue to hoard power >> among a certain few chosen people >> and to make it more dynastic >> than electoral >> to our very grave detriment. Because now we're looking at 2028 >> and most people don't have any idea who we can run on the Democrat side cuz Gavin is not going to win >> the presidency. He might get the nomination and I still I don't even think that's possible. M so I am really worried about 2028 and I'm also disgusted because we have had ample opportunity to elevate some other politicians who are not old Christian white men.

[00:47:43]>> Uh and I don't care about the Christian part like sure whatever it's a Christian nation primarily so >> do that but I mean what about Jewish people? Can this country even elect a Jewish president? I don't think so.

[00:47:55]>> Probably not. right now.

[00:47:56]>> I remember what they did to Joe Lieberman who ended up being kind of a mess, but >> Bernie Sanders, like time and time again, you have these people who are reasonably wellqualified.

[00:48:06]>> And there's something that keeps people from voting for them.

[00:48:10]>> I also think though part of the problem we're looking at right now is also generational. I think boomers have not wanted to let go of their power.

[00:48:19]>> Oh, no, they haven't. And I take them to task all the time. Like I have my foot on Nancy Pelosy's net about this because like why was she still running? Like ma'am and and credit all credit to her for what she accomplished in Congress.

[00:48:34]>> She wielded power very effectively. She was very good at working >> the system and working with a range of political opponents >> and getting things done.

[00:48:44]>> But then there came a point where it was just like, wait, why are you still running for senator when you're worth like $300 million? like and you're in your 80s.

[00:48:55]>> No, there there really should be an an age limit. I Oh, and only term limits term limits, but also the age limit because it's not fair to the younger generations to have someone who's four or five generations above them. I don't know if I'm doing the math right, but whatever. Making the decisions that impact the rest of their lives, you know.

[00:49:15]>> And I I imagine the younger politicians must feel very stymied.

[00:49:18]>> Yeah. and resentful. But eventually they seem to all get in line.

[00:49:22]>> Not all of them, but many of them are just seem to be like, uh, I guess some my day will come and then I too can hoard power and stay in office way too long.

[00:49:31]>> Especially Especially I think too like the whole, >> you know, RBG thing. It's like did we not learn like what could have been a bigger lesson for the Democratic party than RBG?

[00:49:43]>> And that lesson is being learned over and over again. And but nothing is being taken away from it. People are just like, "Oh, well, maybe it won't happen next time." Like, and then it happens again.

[00:49:52]>> Yeah.

[00:49:53]>> You know, RBG, what a way to >> like She truly did accomplish amazing things. Not a perfect person, but she accomplished a lot. She was >> Yeah.

[00:50:02]>> She she broke ground for women in law >> for time and time again.

[00:50:08]>> Yeah. Like many times. and also for the most part ruled on the right side of the law as far as I'm concerned and was a genuine sort of interesting thinker. Her opinions were really well written >> and really engaging. So why I I mean I remember thinking in the last several years of her life like news reports would be like, "Oh yeah, she got cancer again."

[00:50:32]>> Yeah.

[00:50:32]>> And which is terrible. I mean to get it multiple times, but then like none of that was a sign that maybe I should go take care of myself and hang out with my amazing kids and grandkids >> and pass on my beautiful collar >> to another person. And now we have this really horrendous Supreme Court. And the Democrats are not going to expand the court. Mhm.

[00:50:56]>> They keep talking about it now, but they're not going to do anything because they are cowards and they never really seem to do anything that really challenges power. They just do the exact same things and act very passive like, "Oh, even though I'm one of the most powerful people in the world, what can I do? I cannot possibly stop any of this stuff that Trump is doing. I'm actually going to just approve his nominations."

[00:51:18]>> Really, I mean, like, they don't want me in Congress because I would vote no on absolutely anything that came across my desk. Like why would I vote yes for anything put forward by a Republican congress person? I know >> it's it's like I there's not enough pettiness in Congress as far as I'm concerned.

[00:51:37]>> Um Roxan, I I I want a hard pivot.

[00:51:40]>> Yes, I love a hard pivot.

[00:51:41]>> A hard pivot to the romance novel you are writing [laughter] with Channing Tatum. Do tell what you are allowed to tell. And also is it true that you too were Sweet Valley High?

[00:51:53]>> Oh, I love Sweet Valley High. Oh, me too.

[00:51:55]>> Me too. But so is there is is that is there overlap there at all?

[00:52:00]>> No. But >> I mean, shout out Sweet Valley High.

[00:52:04]>> Yeah.

[00:52:05]>> Every once in a while I go back and like read one of those books and I I remember as a kid like I would read that book in a day, >> but now I can read those books in like two hours. That is a good little like literary snack.

[00:52:17]>> I I'm going to go back. I have not done that.

[00:52:19]>> Oh, you should.

[00:52:20]>> Okay.

[00:52:20]>> They are like as an adult. Oh, those books are rough. Like I What was I loving there? But then I'm like, "Oh, what's going on with Jessica and Elizabeth?"

[00:52:30]>> Yeah.

[00:52:30]>> And and Enid.

[00:52:32]>> Oh, yep. Yep.

[00:52:33]>> I know. I'm more now as an adult, I'm Regency era romance series. I'm like very deep and heavy into them.

[00:52:40]>> So, are you into the Bridgetgerton of a doll?

[00:52:42]>> Uh, yes. I I like to My calling card is that I never could have done as good of a job as Shondaanda Rimes, of course, but I was pitching that as a series in 2010.

[00:52:53]ahead of the time. I know you're just You were just early. You were just early.

[00:52:56]>> Exactly.

[00:52:57]>> Um, >> but I am writing a romance novel with Channing. I am hoping to finish it this summer. And we we were working on it together. We outlined it several years ago. It's a great idea. It's called Down to You, and it's about two best friends.

[00:53:11]You know how you make a pact with your friend? Like, if we're still single at 40, >> let's get married. They actually do, and then they fall in love. Oh my god. It's about like how they get to know each other, how they navigate the relationship, and how they fall in love.

[00:53:25]>> And they do. It has a happy ending cuz I wanted a happy project. So much of what I write about is >> I I love what I do, but I write about a lot of difficult and sometimes very depressing things and very traumatizing things. And so it is nice to have a project that will not have a lick of trauma in it. like it is going to be set in that sort of New York where you can have an amazing apartment with floor to ceiling windows and it takes up a whole floor and the rent is $2,500 and you never have to go to work.

[00:53:53]>> Yeah. Um and and talk to me a bit about the Rumpus. Yes.

[00:53:56]>> Like what you're doing there.

[00:53:58]>> Yeah. So last year [laughter] like what were we thinking? But my wife co-owns another magazine called Print Magazine.

[00:54:06]>> Okay. And she she hosts the the amazing podcast Design >> Design Matters which I highly recommend.

[00:54:11]So, if you haven't listened, check out Design Matters. She's incredible. She is probably one of the finest interviewers in the country, if not the world. And shout out to her.

[00:54:19]>> Um, >> and so we were walking our dog in my parents' neighborhood cuz we were hanging out with them. And this was right before my mom died. And so it was kind of somber, but I mentioned, "Oh, by the way, I told them no because I don't have the brain space to deal with it now, but you know, someone wants us to buy the rumpus."

[00:54:37]>> And Debbie is a Scorpio.

[00:54:40]>> [laughter] >> I did not know that, but that makes a lot of sense.

[00:54:42]>> Yes, it does. And she said, "Oh, we're buying it."

[00:54:45]>> And I was like, "Oh, we are." And so we did end up buying it. In many ways, it was kind of a literary coming home because I worked for The Rumpus for several years and I used to be an editor there many years ago. I didn't realize that.

[00:54:56]>> Oh, yeah. Um, I actually kind of got my start there and sort of the when I started to move beyond like HTML Giant, which was amazing. Mhm.

[00:55:04]>> Um, and my blog, my the next step before I got to The Guardian was actually The Rumpus.

[00:55:11]>> And many of the essays in Bad Feminist were published originally in The Rumpus.

[00:55:16]And so it felt very full circle for me.

[00:55:18]>> And so now we're running The Rumpus. And so it has been great a to work with women >> and to be able to pay writers well >> and we have been able to hire three staff members which is new for the Rumpus because before this it was primarily volunteer and we we you know we're doing a lot of the things that we've always dreamed we would like to be able to do with a publication.

[00:55:45]>> It's modest. It's a literary magazine, so people should like manage your expectations about pay, but we pay $500 for pros and $200 for poetry. And >> that's quite frankly more than most magazines. And so we're very proud of that.

[00:56:00]>> And we're also just proud of being a space where people can send us interesting work, provocative work, and as long as it's well written, we are willing to take a chance on it.

[00:56:11]>> Oh, no. It's amazing. Um, okay. Hey, I have a question out of left field before we get to our last question that I ask everybody.

[00:56:18]>> One of the things I loved about you on Twitter >> was all your talk of your nemesis.

[00:56:25]>> How like you you would talk so openly about your nemesis.

[00:56:30]>> Very open about it. I have 10.

[00:56:32]>> 10. Okay. That's what I I wanted to know >> how many there are right now. So 10.

[00:56:38]>> It's always 10. Sometimes people can move in and out. There's my number one nemesis.

[00:56:43]>> Okay.

[00:56:43]>> She is my nemesis.

[00:56:47]>> Uhhuh.

[00:56:49]>> But and then like she is the primary. So most of the time when I'm talking about my nemesis, I'm talking about her.

[00:56:56]>> But then there are the other nine slots.

[00:56:58]>> Some of them are permanent, but some of them are not. Like >> when I feel like I've moved on, I will slot them out and something else immediately takes that place. [laughter] So [gasps] it's it's its thing and I keep it on my um notes app. Uhhuh.

[00:57:11]>> And are you like is it in your will that you that the world will get to learn who your nemesis were number one? But um you know I think people would just be like oh that's it.

[00:57:23]>> But [laughter] not me. It's not who people think it is.

[00:57:27]>> And um I think that's very very funny.

[00:57:30]But there's only one person on there that I think people if they have been paying attention will be like yeah I see it. Uh-huh.

[00:57:37]>> Uh, but it's part it started kind of tongue and cheek like the nemesis thing is real, but the chronicles of the nemesis on social media was partly just kind of like I was just kind of having fun and never in a million years would have imagined that people would like be deeply invested and like start following this narrative. So then it just became like hilarious to be like, well, here's what she's up to today, >> right? And people also kind of misunderstand it because a lot of people are like, "Is Donald Trump your nemesis?" And I'm like, "I have taste."

[00:58:11]Like the nemesis is worthy. It's not someone who is beneath you or who is like just >> it's someone who's like >> either a peer or just beyond peer like >> where you feel like if things go my way, I could achieve what they have. Uh-huh.

[00:58:29]>> But there's just enough distance for resentment to flourish.

[00:58:33]>> Like so. And and also they're very good at what they do.

[00:58:36]>> Why would my nemesis be someone beneath me? My nemesis has to be worthy of my talents.

[00:58:41]>> So yeah.

[00:58:42]>> Do you have you ever broken bread with your nemesis?

[00:58:50]>> I have met my nemesis.

[00:58:51]>> Okay.

[00:58:52]>> I have, but I don't know that anyone knows we've met.

[00:58:54]>> Okay. And do you think if you sort of if you guys were, you know, stuck in an elevator together that you would come out of that with her still being your nemesis or do you think >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because we've interacted multiple times.

[00:59:07]>> Oh, okay.

[00:59:07]>> Oh, yeah. We've DM'd, we've chatted.

[00:59:09]Okay. And we've >> And does she know she's your nemesis?

[00:59:11]>> No, she has no idea.

[00:59:13]>> Amazing.

[00:59:13]>> She has no idea. And people always guess wrong. They always guess wrong. Only one person has ever guessed it correctly.

[00:59:21]>> Oh. And it was a random stranger who commented on Twitter many, many years ago.

[00:59:27]>> Oh wow.

[00:59:28]>> And I just didn't acknowledge it.

[00:59:30]>> But I wanted to tell them, "How did you figure it out?" Because there's no reason why anyone would figure this out.

[00:59:36]It's so stupid and so >> we should know who that person is because maybe they could help solve a lot of crimes.

[00:59:45]>> This person I mean I shout out to this person. I wish I could even remember who it was, but like I think it was a woman and I was just like, [sighs and gasps] "Damn, girl."

[00:59:54]>> Yeah, you got me.

[00:59:55]>> I feel like there could be a whole like a um podcast limited series on trying to figure out who it is, but um >> who is Roxan Gay's nemesis?

[01:00:05]>> Um so the last question I ask everybody is if there is anything you are currently working on reclaiming and we use a very elastic definition here. So it's it it can be a relationship, a hobby, a place.

[01:00:21]>> Oh yeah. Um I came here from therapy, so I actually do have top of- mind answer. I'm working on reclaiming my right to be difficult because I spend so much of my time trying to be a people pleaser and to make every pe person's sort of experience around me frictionless >> and I sort of micromanage like all of these things that are not my responsibility because I just want people to like me. I want people to think I'm, you know, charming and easy to work with and not a problem because so many black women get labeled angry or difficult. And so a lot of us have to work overtime to be seen as like the opposite of that. And even with the working overtime and bending over backwards to cater to other people's whims and needs, it's not enough. And lately, I've just thought like, why am I always putting myself last? And like why am I always working so hard to not be difficult when I have every right to be difficult? And I don't mean obnoxious. I don't mean cruel. I don't mean um selfish or anything like that. But like a right to have standards, a right to when you're dissatisfied with something express that dissatisfaction, >> right? Without having to I think sometimes um like I think of it like a flower without having to have so many petals correct >> around you know around that, >> right? To just be like human and to stand up for myself. So yeah, that's what I'm reclaiming.

[01:01:48]>> Roxan, thank you so much. This was so amazing.

[01:01:53]>> I appreciate how you having me. You're great. So I love coming on the show.

[01:01:56]>> Not not as good as Debbie interviewing.

[01:01:59]Maybe close.

[01:02:00]>> I think you're >> cuz she's my wife. I have to say she's the best. [laughter] And I also I do believe that. But you are a very close second. You're an amazing interviewer.

[01:02:08]This is a good medium for you.

[01:02:09]>> Oh, good. Thank you so much.