How To Learn French To A Native-Like Level (Don't Go To University)

[00:00:00]All right, guys. So, today we have an interview with a successful language learner, Leila, who studied and learned French up to a pretty like native-like level.

[00:00:21]The goal of today's interview is really to get people to, you know, the people listening to sort of get some inspiration on, you know, how she did this and hopefully achieve this in French or any other language that you're learning, apply the same technique. So, Leila, could you introduce yourself and also talk about what led you to learning French?

[00:00:42]>> Yeah, of course. Well, my name is Leila and I love learning languages. I started learning French in 2015.

[00:00:50]And I'm also studying Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian at the moment as well.

[00:00:56]Um what is my background with French?

[00:00:58]Well, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I started university. So, I took philosophy. I wanted to ask a lot of questions and kind of discover that side of life. Um and I hated it. Um we had to start with the ancient philosophers all the way up to the '80s and more contemporary studies. And it was very difficult for the first semester. Um I wasn't connecting with any of the texts and it was very boring to me. But then in February of 2016, we had to read The Social Contract by Rousseau and my life changed. Um for the first time in my academic career, I was highlighting, I was annotating. I wanted to ask questions about what this man thought.

[00:01:42]But what stood out to me most was his uh pity towards animals and the suffering that they undergo. And it he was the first author who had really discussed suffering throughout our studies.

[00:01:54]And I thought, "I have to learn more about this man.

[00:01:58]So I went to my professor and he referred me to a Russo specialist actually who happens to be at our university. And just as a backdrop, I was studying in Canada, but I was in the Anglophone part. I was in the Halifax, Nova Scotia, so no French around me.

[00:02:14]Um and she turned around. I had given her um my questions and she answered some of them for me and I said, "What can I do?

[00:02:22]How do I learn more about him?" And she handed me a 630-page book and she said, "Read this and then come back to see me." So I thought, "All right, let me do this."

[00:02:36]I started reading it and I fell in love yet again and I thought, "Okay, I need to change my major. I need to study French. I need to read this in French one day.

[00:02:46]Whatever I have to do, I'll do that."

[00:02:48]And so my first French classes started that next academic year, which was the end of 2016.

[00:02:54]And then would you like me to maybe talk about what I how I studied it or what that journey was like?

[00:03:01]>> well, so I have a question first. So you changed your major to French. Um but I mean, I know a lot of people who you know, for any language really, they went to university, took classes, majored in that language, but they end up, you know, speaking the language but not to the level of sort of native likeness that you achieved. So surely you have done something else, you know, apart from university to reach that sort of native likeness. So could you talk about yeah, uh um this whole sort of overall, how did you learn French?

[00:03:35]>> Yes. So I did learn in the classic, you know, go to a um French 101 where the whole class is taught in English and you do French exercises. So that was my first year of French. I was obviously a good student because it was all in English and I was doing all of the assignments that I needed to do.

[00:03:53]But, it all changed when I started my second year of French studies and all of my classes were French.

[00:04:00]Taught in French, 100% in French.

[00:04:03]>> Mhm.

[00:04:03]>> And um I didn't know what to do with myself.

[00:04:07]That first class, I didn't know that the professor was asking us to open the textbook to a specific page. I didn't know what she was asking of us at all.

[00:04:16]And so I cried and I went to her office after class and I said, "I don't think I can do this. I have no idea what you're saying. Everyone in class seems to understand. They're all Canadian. They have the basics of French.

[00:04:27]>> Right. Right.

[00:04:27]>> What's going on?" So, she said, "You have to figure it out basically, you know, use Google Translate, do something." So, I actually had to type in on Google Translate all of my instructions in my textbook, all of the exercises I was doing. It was horrible. It was laborious. It was monotonous. But, I wouldn't change that for the world because I had to catch up to my colleagues around me.

[00:04:55]And that's that was my motivation. I had to be as good if not better than the people around me. And you know, I cried almost every single night. It was annoying. I highlighted so many words in all of my textbooks. I was translating so many things. I would reread sentences and my head was going crazy. But, that really, really helped.

[00:05:15]>> Right.

[00:05:16]>> So, I continued taking those classes.

[00:05:19]I was struggling still every single day.

[00:05:21]Um but, I think what helped was the fact that because I was kind of the worst in class since I had no French background unlike all the Canadians around me. I'm from California. Um was that for every hour that we had of class, I had to spend two or three at home doing that translation.

[00:05:40]So, I got to my third year of French and my professor said, you know, you're doing really well. I could tell that you're motivated. You're one of the best students in class, but you can't talk.

[00:05:50]You need to do something about that. You should probably go do a study abroad program. And that's when I started taking classes online. I started um iTalki classes.

[00:06:00]And then I decided, oh wait, Rousseau, Geneva, Switzerland. I'm going to find a way to go to Switzerland and do a little like pilgrimage uh to follow the traces of Rousseau basically. So, to jump-start myself to that, I started taking classes on iTalki. And that was incredible. I had been taking, you know, 3 years of university-style French classes. I couldn't speak. I could barely talk about what I did in the day.

[00:06:27]And so having all of those classes really made a difference. And um so I ended up going to Geneva. Uh I well, I actually stayed in Neuchâtel, which is like a few hours from Geneva.

[00:06:37]>> Okay.

[00:06:38]>> They had a French summer program there.

[00:06:40]And you know, as I'm obviously you know, when you're speaking in a second language and you're first learning it, you feel stupid, you can't express yourself really well, you can't make jokes, you know, so it's really hard to feel comfortable. So I would always resort to English. But I was taking this summer program with fellow, you know, non-Swiss people from, you know, Brazil, other countries. And one of my friends said, "Hey Leila, like we're here to learn French."

[00:07:09]I I know that you really want this, but you got to speak in French. Um you know, stop being so nervous. And that was really I really needed to hear that. And so I said, "Okay, I'm not going to speak any Can I cuss on this or no?"

[00:07:24]>> Yeah, sure.

[00:07:25]>> Okay, I'm not going to speak any goddamn English for this whole this whole program. So I resorted to French. I felt stupid. I felt not funny, all of those things. And after I would say a month spending time there and having 4-hour classes every single day, >> Mhm.

[00:07:42]>> I called my really good friend from um college. She's Quebecoise.

[00:07:47]And we had a conversation and at the end she said, "Do you realize we just had our first conversation blah blah. We had our first conversation in French, right?"

[00:07:55]And it hadn't clicked for me before.

[00:07:58]So, just being surrounded by all of those native speakers, by forcing myself to speak it, um by pretty much wanting to cry every day again, that's what really got me to speaking it.

[00:08:10]Um and then I came back to finish my degree, but that was during COVID. I had applied to become an au pair and go to France um and study and and go there and that was an amazing thing that was so important to me, but I couldn't go because of COVID.

[00:08:27]>> Right.

[00:08:27]>> Um so, at that time I was also learning Serbian and I stayed in Serbia for 3 months. That's a whole other story.

[00:08:34]But once I came back from Serbia, I got a message on Indeed, you know, the job site online from someone looking for a French uh for an assistant teacher at a French school, at a French kindergarten. I had never worked with kids. I had never worked in a French environment, but I had French on my resume. And I thought, "All right, let's just see how it goes.

[00:08:57]I'm going to go to the interview and we'll see what it's like." And that was the best thing I could have ever done in my French studies after coming back. Um I was the only No, I think there were maybe three other people who were American or Brazilian at that school.

[00:09:13]So, I was surrounded by French people and I was surrounded by French children.

[00:09:18]I was learning so many new words every single day. I had a tiny journal in my pocket and I would write down new words as I'd listen to the teacher talking to these 5-year-olds.

[00:09:28]>> You know, cuz you don't learn that in school.

[00:09:30]This is in France or is this in the US?

[00:09:33]>> This is in California. I was uh back home.

[00:09:37]Mhm. Yeah, so I came back from Serbia right after 2020. I started this job at a French school in California. I was there for almost 2 years and I switched to a different French school after that. So that was pretty much two or two and a half years of just working as an assistant teacher at a preschool and a kindergarten. And that is uh now I'm I'm where I am now.

[00:10:02]>> Nice. And so you gave us a sort of the the picture here, but in terms of the timeline of your level in French, just you know, so that people can you know, set some expectations.

[00:10:14]So you started in university and could could you sort of walk us through you know, at what point did you feel I guess fluent? I mean this is more of a I guess a lot of people would never call themselves fluent, but in your case you're clearly are, but could you give us an idea of you know, at this point I was at this level and and so on.

[00:10:37]>> Let me think. So in 2016, if I started French then and I did I would say two to three school years of French and I did not arrive at speaking. That was probably that would probably put me only at A2, honestly. It was not it was not impressive, you know, from the college level courses.

[00:10:56]>> at >> It was only >> years, yeah.

[00:10:59]>> So it took at least 3 years before I went to Switzerland in 2019 and that's when I felt very comfortable. So I'd say 3 years.

[00:11:09]>> after Switzerland >> Yes, cuz I was there for 3 months and I was in you know, the French speaking part of it and I was forcing myself to only speak French.

[00:11:20]>> Well, I guess it's yeah, it's a good thing to go to Switzerland, you know, compared to Canada I guess cuz the accent, I mean in my experience I studied in in Switzerland. I went to college there in Lausanne, yeah.

[00:11:32]And so I felt like the the accent is not very strong for the most part, you know, compared to like standard French.

[00:11:40]Um >> Mhm.

[00:11:41]>> And so, could you sort of describe um I guess you you I mean you said that you you were crying almost every day, but could you describe sort of a bad like the typical sort of bad week that you had you know, at this point?

[00:11:56]>> Sure. Um well, I mean I just it depends. Do you mean a bad week when I was first learning or a bad week when I was uh immersed in a language in Switzerland?

[00:12:03]Cuz those were would be different bad weeks.

[00:12:06]>> I guess let's do both.

[00:12:07]>> Okay. Um so, when it came to university, a bad week would simply be doing my homework and doing nothing on top of that.

[00:12:17]>> Mhm.

[00:12:17]>> Um I was very lucky that since it was my major, I had at least three classes a week, so I had technically if I didn't do any homework, at least 3 hours of some sort of input even if I didn't want to do anything at home.

[00:12:31]Um so, I'd say that was a bad week because I wouldn't do anything more than that. I would just be exhausted or I'd be procrastinating, honestly.

[00:12:38]>> Right.

[00:12:39]>> Um because otherwise for a good week, you know, I would if we were learning the conditional, for example, I would go to I had written down Oh, yes, tolearnfrench.com.

[00:12:50]It's a very very old-fashioned website.

[00:12:53]Uh it looks like it's from the '90s. I would use tolearnfrench.com or lepointdufle.com.

[00:12:59]And I would just Google, you know, I would search conditional exercises and I would work on those until I felt comfortable. Um but for a bad week when I was in Switzerland, I'm very curious to know from other speakers that you've had or your experience as well if when you're in an immersion an immersive environment and when you're hearing that other language, obviously your brain is soaking it up and you do get better at the end, but I feel like at the beginning, at least for me, sometimes I couldn't even pronounce I felt as though I couldn't even say a sentence in French. Some days, I felt so overwhelmed that I couldn't I could barely arrive at speaking in English. Has that ever happened to you or anyone else who you know?

[00:13:43]>> Yeah, so in my case, I mean, it it's definitely happened, especially at the you know, at the start when where you're kind of thrown into it.

[00:13:52]So, nowadays, when I study languages, I try to, you know, get some preparation, you know, speaking preparation beforehand, so I don't have to be in those types of stressful situations, but you know, it does work. I mean, you can get thrown into it and just like you benefit a lot from it.

[00:14:12]Um and so, it sounds like in your case, when you went to Switzerland, you were kind of, you know, you started having conversations and it was embarrassing, I guess.

[00:14:21]>> Super embarrassing. Um and I mean, I'm sure you've heard of the comedian, I think his name is Paul Taylor.

[00:14:28]He's an Englishman who's learning French.

[00:14:30]>> Right. I'm not aware of of Paul Taylor.

[00:14:32]>> Oh, he's He has a very good accent in French and he's married to a French woman and he jokes that the problem with having a good accent when you speak a second language is that people will just think you're a dumbass if you make a mistake cuz they might think that you're French, but just that you're stupid. So, I would Basically, I had to get rid of all my shame and I would pretty much start my conversations, unless I was just ordering a coffee, by saying, "Hey, I'm learning French. Please forgive me for any mistakes.

[00:15:03]Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

[00:15:05]Um because I was there on a mission, you know, I had to I still had this Rousseau image in my mind. I went to some different places where he had been. I went to the Rousseau Museum. I think it's in Watier. It's a tiny village in Switzerland where he had been for a while.

[00:15:22]And so, yes, I just had to recognize that I had a goal in mind. I was only in Switzerland for so many months. And if it meant sounding stupid, I didn't care.

[00:15:32]I was there for a goal. And I was just very aware of the fact that I I wouldn't feel very comfortable, but that's what you have to do to start to feel comfortable, right?

[00:15:45]>> Sure, yeah. The I mean, definitely it's been my experience. Um, you know, you start speaking at the start, you know, you your first language is you feel embarrassed, but at some point it's just like, okay, I sounded stupid, I can understand. Next, you know, it's just uh, more repetitions.

[00:16:00]Um, >> Exactly.

[00:16:01]>> So, if you had to estimate, I guess it's kind of hard because you had, you know, multiple steps in your learning sort of process. How many hours in total did you put into uh, learning French?

[00:16:12]>> say if I had four years of, you know, university classes, um, cuz since I changed my major, I had to do an extra year, so I technically did five years of university. So, I had four university years, which would I would say be 120 weeks of classes.

[00:16:29]So, I want to guess that that's, I don't know, uh, 1,400, 1,200 hours just from school itself, from university. But then from COVID up until now, I I took various pauses. Like I had it some different plateaus. I got busy with work. I have a different job now. Um, so I didn't always take 1 hour of French class per week, but that I want to say maybe 250, 300 hours of just one-on-one classes through iTalki.

[00:16:59]>> Right.

[00:17:00]>> So, whatever those two added together would be.

[00:17:02]>> Okay. So, that gives us an idea of, uh, what you had plus some additional exposure, of course, from, you know, your your jobs and so on. And um, also, I guess in these hours, there are hours, I mean, there are there are things that you did that ended up producing not much. Uh could you tell us what these activities are that people should avoid?

[00:17:27]>> my university experience. So, I mean, that sounds horrible, but starting, you know, learning French 101 and having it taught in English, I think is a crime.

[00:17:37]It should be a legal crime because at the end of that, you know, as I said, when I got to second year French, they started speaking French, and I had no idea what was going on.

[00:17:46]I am such a huge proponent now of speak to me using your language, and I'm just going to nod, I'll figure it out, I will use Google Translate, I'll do whatever it takes, but don't speak to me in English.

[00:17:59]That's pretty much my anytime I have a tutor now, even in Serbian, I'm like a B1. I'm not that great at it yet, but I tell them, "Don't speak to me in English unless I ask, please." Because I feel like that is really what helps. So, doing those grammatical exercises, going to classes, that did not help me until I started those one-on-one speaking and listening classes, where it was an hour of pure contact.

[00:18:25]>> Right. So, if you had to cut sort of this whole this whole, you know, not routine, but uh in like everything that you did, you just cut out half of it, uh what would you cut?

[00:18:36]>> I would cut I would cut those university years. Um I love my professors. I'm still in contact with some of them. They have changed my life, but the way in which schooling, I think, in general is structured for foreign languages is so unhelpful. I would absolutely cut those.

[00:18:54]I'd get on a plane. I'd go to a francophone country or whichever language someone is studying, and I would just struggle through it.

[00:19:02]>> Right. Right. And in terms of deliberate sort of learning activities, did you I mean, obviously, you got the whole, you know, university textbooks, but did you have to learn vocabulary through lists or flash cards, stuff like that?

[00:19:17]>> Yes, we had a lot of um quizzes per week, uh which I think was amazing.

[00:19:23]I think that was very helpful, actually.

[00:19:25]Um when it came to getting the basics of grammar, we did have at least a quiz per week on whatever grammatical concept we were focusing on.

[00:19:36]And that really helped solidify the language by being tested on it as often as possible. And also, I just used Quizlet. I know it's kind of boring, but I That's how I supplemented my schooling at that point. I made flashcard decks using Quizlet. And I tried Anki out, but it wasn't it The learning curve, as I'm sure you've heard from so many people, was it was just not my cup of tea.

[00:20:02]>> Yeah.

[00:20:03]>> So, I went for Quizlet. I did that, and then I would always be listening to something in French. So, if I was putting on my makeup, if I was Honestly, even if I was showering, I bought a Bluetooth speaker that was waterproof.

[00:20:15]I was crazy. I was I was going crazy, but I would listen to French podcasts while I showered and washed my hair.

[00:20:21]Um I think I used Français Authentique and Hugo Inner French. Those are the two that I used cuz those are quite beginner level, intermediate level. And I would just always have those playing in my ears, and I would try to maybe read the transcript if those were available as well.

[00:20:41]>> Um and so, I I know about Inner French.

[00:20:44]I I think I I watched some of his videos. I mean, not for learning French, but you know, out of curiosity.

[00:20:51]Um and I think I mean, it's pretty good.

[00:20:54]He talks, you know, in a way that is pretty slow and pretty comprehensible, but at this point, are you able to sort of go on YouTube or Netflix and watch something in French and have I'm guessing that you don't have too many issues understanding what's going on, right?

[00:21:11]>> Yeah, I'd say now after my French program, it wasn't a full-on I didn't take DALF or DELF, but at the end of it we had to take a we had to do a an oral exam and a listening exam and I got C1, but that was again that was in 2019, so it's probably I'm probably not as in tune with it as I was back then with the academic vocabulary.

[00:21:35]>> Mhm.

[00:21:36]>> Yes, I listen to native content almost every day.

[00:21:42]My YouTube channel, my Instagram, most of the content is either in French or Serbian. My computer's in French, my phone's in French.

[00:21:50]Um because since I live in a city where there aren't a lot of French people almost at all. I don't think I've ran into I've heard French once I think on the street here.

[00:22:00]>> Really?

[00:22:01]>> to just Yeah, which is very sad.

[00:22:04]Um I'm very disappointed about that. Um so I have to create an immersive experience myself in in a way while having a full-time job.

[00:22:13]>> Right, which is not um not super easy. I mean, I guess you've seen all the the videos on the internet talking about, you know, you need to listen all the time.

[00:22:22]Yeah, but what if you're working, you know? So uh there's that. I mean, you can use the other hours, but you know, people have families, they have stuff to do. So uh I want to talk specifically about your your accent because you sound very natural and you know, for myself um being in Switzerland, um there were a lot of foreign students who were pretty fluent in French for the most part, but uh in terms of accent, they were you know, uh understandable, but sometimes it did take some mental processing to sort of um you know, adapt to their accent. It's it's not always very easy to understand them. Not only are you are you easy to understand, but you sound very, you know, native-like.

[00:23:07]And which is sort of weird because you went to university in Canada. So, I would assume that you know, that's possibly the strongest French accent that there is. Uh pretty remote from the current, you know, {quote unquote} standard accent in in France.

[00:23:23]So, how did you reach this? Uh was this always something that you focused on or did you just, you know, happen to sound like that?

[00:23:33]>> I I really wish I could tell you that I worked hard on that, but it just came very naturally.

[00:23:39]Um I think some people maybe have an ear for accents.

[00:23:43]Um and I feel that way with the languages that I have learned.

[00:23:47]Um I do have a random anecdote. I don't know if this has any scientific backing, but when my mom was pregnant with me, she was actually supposed to go to France for a study abroad program, but she found out she was pregnant with me and she stayed um she stayed home instead and decided to have me. Thank you, Mom.

[00:24:05]Um but what she did was she said that she put her headphones on her stomach and would play French tapes a lot.

[00:24:13]I have no idea if there's anything related to that, but um I I haven't really had to work on my accent, luckily.

[00:24:20]>> Wow, yeah. That's uh that sounds well, it's worth, you know, a try, but then well, yeah, I'd have to if you if you're pregnant or anything, try to, you know, immerse your baby in the in the language.

[00:24:35]Um but uh it I think you talked about plateaus. Um you took some breaks and so on. Could you talk about this because I I feel like a lot of people reach a plateau sort of at the intermediate stage probably where they're able to talk and so on, but maybe in more, you know, in uh group conversations and stuff like that, they're a bit stuck. What did you do to overcome these plateaus?

[00:25:01]>> Yes, I'm actually working on that right now because um I started my current job about a year and a half ago and I really kind of threw myself into this job. Um I didn't have a lot of time to take French lessons or focus on French and I got quite lazy and I just listened to things that were in English. I was comfortable.

[00:25:23]Uh I listened to French music on Spotify. You know, I I have language learning playlists um that I listen to, but I just really couldn't be bothered to study. And so now what I'm doing to get out of that plateau is watching at least a podcast or watching listening to a podcast once a week, discussing it with my tutor on iTalki.

[00:25:43]Shoutout to Elizabeth, she's amazing.

[00:25:46]Um and I use Clozemaster for my flashcards. I do that every day. I think I'm on I don't know, only a 30-day streak. This is very new for me, but I love it so much and it has helped a lot.

[00:26:01]>> Yeah, and with So I want to talk about iTalki, but first let's talk about Clozemaster. So with Clozemaster, I'm familiar with it, but I haven't used it too much. Is this you know, you well, they're close sort of questions you have to fill in the blank type of type of thing. Um does this help you to produce French?

[00:26:22]>> Um I'd say it's kind of like Anki in that it's just you know, for flashcards mainly. Um you know, you see a sentence and you're trying to recall the word.

[00:26:31]There is an option to do multiple choice out of I think four or five options where you can pick that, which is easy mode. Then there is typing mode and then there is um audio mode where you can speak the word. That one has a few bugs and I have mentioned that. I've sent that in. You know, I'm sure as you know with the demonstrative pronouns in French, you know, they can sound very similar. So it doesn't always pick it up. So I do typing. And I do review of 60 words per day.

[00:27:01]And I've been able to maintain that so far for about a month and I have already felt a huge difference. Um because I think when you plateau you know, for example, I feel very comfortable having these conversations.

[00:27:14]I can talk about philosophy or the doctor's office, that sort of thing. But if I want to still really natural and use idiomatic phrases and different colloquialisms, that's something I'm really working on now to feel more at home when I'm speaking French if that makes any sense.

[00:27:33]>> Right. Right.

[00:27:34]Actually, I wanted to ask you about that. We'll we'll talk about iTalki, but I feel like especially nowadays, you know, for me being in Tahiti, which is, you know, French Polynesia, we're technically part of France.

[00:27:46]Whenever I go to France, which is not really often, I'm always kind of surprised by I would say the dialect that, you know, the young people have developed there.

[00:27:57]It sounds um foreign to me and I can understand for the most part, but I'm just wondering for for a French learner, is that something you you understand well or do you have any difficulties with this?

[00:28:12]>> Um I would say that um so I'm not a fan of social media. I don't post on social media. I'm I'm not a a producer of anything on social media, but I consume a lot uh French and Serbian content. And what I love about Instagram specifically is that so many creators put subtitles. So when I do see young people talking, maybe I wouldn't know what they were saying if there weren't subtitles on the video, but after having watched so many videos of young people talking and using different slang terms, um that does help a lot, but I don't honestly really focus on that too much cuz I don't I don't want to sound rude, but I don't really want to speak like that. Um, I'd like to understand it, but I'm not interested in using, you know, phrases like that as as much.

[00:29:02]>> Mhm.

[00:29:03]>> I hope that answers your question.

[00:29:04]>> Yeah, sure. I mean, it's really quite surprising because, um, on YouTube there's a channel, I forgot what it's called, maybe Yeah, in a France or something like that where they have clips of, you know, interviews of people, you know, on the street, but from like 50 years ago or, you know, 60, 70 years ago.

[00:29:24]>> in a France. Oh, my god, I love those videos. I watch those all the time.

[00:29:31]>> Really? Yeah. Well, I'm sure you've noticed that even when they have a I think they had a video about, you know, it was young sort of French people, 18, 20, and they asked them like, "What do you do on weekends and stuff like that?"

[00:29:44]And they were talking about, you know, going to, uh, bars and stuff like that.

[00:29:48]And I was really surprised by like the vocabulary it is pretty much the same, but the way of speaking just sounds so much more like standard, I want to say. Like the what people imagine, you know, French people talk like.

[00:30:03]>> [snorts] >> Yes.

[00:30:04]>> And, um, nowadays it's sort of moved away a little bit from that, but yeah, it's it's really amazing how when just, you know, half a century we we just it just evolved so much, so.

[00:30:15]Uh, >> Yes.

[00:30:17]>> But, uh, I wanted to ask you. So, imagine, uh, this is kind of a challenge. I'm I'm going to give you, you know, $10,000 as a, let's say you're a complete beginner, um, in whatever language, you know, not French, you already know this, but uh, and you have, let's say, a year and a half to get to a, you know, the best level that you can in that language.

[00:30:43]So, um if you reach a good level, then I'm going to give you the $10,000. If not, then let's forget about it. So, what would be your your routine like, you know, from day one, hour one, what would you start with?

[00:30:57]>> Um well, I'm assuming in this thought exercise that I wouldn't have a full-time job.

[00:31:03]>> Right, you're just Your full-time job is just learning the the language. What we know actually >> Okay.

[00:31:08]>> You know what? It's not really realistic cuz most people have a full-time job.

[00:31:12]So, let's say that you have a full-time job, but you have to do this on the side.

[00:31:19]>> Um well, let's say that a job is remote so that you can travel, right?

[00:31:24]>> Right, okay.

[00:31:24]>> Um I think that I think that is doable for a lot of people. Um I work remote, for example.

[00:31:31]Um first things first, I'm buying a plane ticket to go to whichever country where they speak the language that I'm trying to learn.

[00:31:37]Um I guess I'll use Serbian as an example since that's uh near and dear to me as well. So, I'm buying a one-way ticket to Belgrade, and on the way over there, if I'm a complete beginner, I'm taking the verbs to be, to have, to want, and I'm writing down, you know, I want, I have, I am, and um I I try to memorize those on the plane cuz if it's an 11-hour flight, 10-hour flight, I have time.

[00:32:06]On top of that, I'm going to learn I'm sorry, I don't speak blah blah blah, or I'm sorry, I'm learning blah blah blah.

[00:32:12]Speak slower, please, and can you repeat that? And that's what I'm learning on the plane. Once I land, I'm signing up for an intensive course.

[00:32:21]Um let's say 2 hours a day. If I'm working full-time, I can't do more than that, but I'll do a 2-hour class.

[00:32:29]And then, I do my work, and then once I'm done with work, as I cook dinner, I'll listen to something in that language. I'll listen to something in Serbian.

[00:32:39]Um I'm not going to actively think because I'll have just done a Serbian class for 2 hours and then full-time job and then cooking. So, I'm just listening passively.

[00:32:49]Um and then I'll probably open up my flashcard app before I go to sleep and use some of those programmed sentences.

[00:32:56]Um sometimes I can't be bothered to make my own flashcards, honestly. I do have different decks. I have one of pre-made Serbian ones and ones from classes that I take on iTalki. So, I would go between those two. I'd go to sleep and then I'd start over. And that's what I would do.

[00:33:12]And uh specifically so you said uh 2 hours of classes every day. I guess, you know, if people are not in the in the country, which you know, which is the case for most people. It's not ideal, but you know, it is what it is.

[00:33:27]Um they can take classes on iTalki. How would you try to structure these classes on iTalki cuz you know, you can instruct your your tutor to do whatever you want.

[00:33:38]Yes. Um I have a few mistakes that I've made with those classes that I think might be helpful to share. The first thing is I did mention this at at the beginning of the call, but you know, when you're first learning a new language, you're not fully yourself, right? You can't be funny. You can't say all the things you want to say.

[00:33:56]But understand that um you're not there to necessarily make friends, which I know sounds horrible. Um but I do have some I actually have when I stayed in Serbia, I stayed with two of my tutors. I lived with one of my tutors for a month. It was a whole experience. It's amazing. We're still in contact. I love her so much.

[00:34:15]But I don't take classes with her anymore because we quickly switched to English and we just got along so well that we kept talking. So, stick to not sounding like yourself. Stick to being uncomfortable with not knowing how to express yourself.

[00:34:29]And understand that you will be able to, but don't switch back to your native language as much as you can. Be comfortable sounding like a two-year-old, because that's okay. And you'll be able to sound like an eight-year-old after a few years.

[00:34:43]Um, so that's one thing with iTalki that I highly recommend. The other thing is it really depends on the language. So, with French for example, or Romance languages, I think just having conversation, and you know, uh everybody learns differently, but when I first started doing classes on iTalki in French, you know, we just kind of talked about daily routines. I would uh maybe try to have a journal and say, "This is what I did today. Let's practice the past tense."

[00:35:10]But just through conversation, since you don't get that in classes usually, in school classes.

[00:35:16]But, oh my god, with Serbian, you can't do that, because there are seven grammatical cases.

[00:35:23]So, you can't just start talking, because there are seven ways to say dog.

[00:35:29]They all have different endings, and then there are three genders. So, with something like Serbian, I always ask my tutors to let's spend half of it working on this textbook that I have, and then let's spend the other 30 minutes talking, and you know, please correct me when I speak and when we're talking about this.

[00:35:48]>> Right.

[00:35:48]>> Um, but it has to be a lot more structured, since it is a lot more difficult than French.

[00:35:52]>> Right. Well, I that's interesting. I I never really uh learned Serbian, so I didn't know it was that hard. But so, you would be a you are a proponent of trying to, you know, speak early, even if you're making mistakes, it's fine.

[00:36:08]And obviously your French it worked pretty well for you, and you still have, you know, developed a pretty native-like um accent.

[00:36:15]I think a lot of people are worried about, you know, speaking early, because they're worried about, you know, sort of having these bad patterns form and and fossilize.

[00:36:26]Um, so that's that's pretty good. And in terms of the flashcard application, you said um, so Closemaster is fairly recent, but you used uh Quizlet as well. Was that Was that helpful?

[00:36:41]>> It was, yes, because I believe at that point it was still doing space repetition. So, it did still um, you know, save a word for me for 3 days later and then 7 days later. Um, so that really helped uh ground me in my classes and and my quizzes so that I could write Oh, another thing actually about my university experience, um, I had to write an undergraduate mini thesis in French, which was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. Um, but man was that helpful.

[00:37:15]I think writing essays is wonderful for language learning and to have a tutor or professor correct that is incredible because, you know, when you're speaking, you you're trying to develop thoughts on the spot. You don't have time to really reflect, but I think if you reflect and you try your best, and I think even just having open book things, like using Google Translator, trying to copy a phrase that you hear on YouTube, it's still going to be incorrect because you're still not fluent, right? So, having a tutor be able to correct that after you've spent time putting that together, I think is really really helpful.

[00:37:50]>> Right. And what do you think of using, you know, AI like ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini for learning languages?

[00:37:59]>> I have mixed feelings. Um, I use it with French because I can pretty much tell if it sounds like ChatGPT when I hear it in French if it responds back to me. I think that sounds like AI. That I don't know if that sounds natural or why are you constructing this verb in this way? But I don't use it for Serbian because I don't feel confident enough in Serbian to know if that sounds natural or not.

[00:38:24]So, for beginners who don't feel comfortable in that language, I could ask it, you know, um, can you make me a list of, or can you find a list of furniture, um, household items in Serbian, so that I can print it out and put it on my cabinets and on my sofa. That I would feel comfortable.

[00:38:45]But anything further than that, that kind of scares me cuz I don't want to use something incorrect if that makes any sense.

[00:38:53]>> Yeah.

[00:38:53]>> Or say something that sounds Chat GPTE, you know?

[00:38:57]>> Right. So, obviously, you know, you had you have a lot of experience learning French and and Serbian as well. And what do you what would you say, well, specifically for French, what is just luck or circumstance, something that people listening right now, they could not realistically, you know, copy or or, you know, sort of emulate?

[00:39:21]>> Um, well, I was very lucky in that when I started learning, I didn't have a full-time job. I was a student. I had the ability to do a study abroad program and get funding for that. And I feel like that is a very, very lucky thing to have.

[00:39:36]I wouldn't have had that experience had I started now. Um, you know, if I could right now, I'd pack up my bags and go straight to Belgrade, Novi Sad in Serbia, and I would spend some time there, but I can't.

[00:39:48]Um, so I feel like that was a very lucky time in my life to be able to dedicate that many hours per day.

[00:39:55]That was basically my job to study French.

[00:39:58]>> Nice. Yeah, definitely a big advantage, but, you know, you did the work and you got where you're you're you are today, and congratulations. So, Layla, thank you so much. This was really interesting. We'll do the French bit just after that. So, anyway, I think this interview was really interesting.

[00:40:16]If you have, you know, comments, put them in the in the comment section. Um I think this was a lot of gold here. A lot of people are going to have, um you know, some good inspiration. So, thank you so much.

[00:40:29]>> Thank you so much, Larissa. I appreciate it.