A personality disorder is fundamentally different from a personality with a disorder; the former lacks an 'observing ego' that can evaluate one's own behavior against ideal standards and take accountability, while the latter can recognize flaws and work toward improvement. People with personality disorders operate on hedonism—doing what feels good and avoiding what feels bad—without genuine empathy or the capacity for self-reflection. This distinction is crucial for understanding why some family members cannot change despite therapy or promises, and why victims of toxic family dynamics should not expect redemption or reconciliation from those who have never demonstrated genuine accountability.
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Boundaries with my PARENTS? CALL IN SHOW本站添加:
This is a public call, all free of charge, but if you could do me a favor and just stay off names and places, I would be thrilled.
>> For sure. You're great to do these. I really appreciate it. Again, >> yeah, sure. So, I'm a fifth time caller, 15-year listener. Sounds crazy. Uh um always love our discussions. I left my family of origin two and a half years ago by writing my mom and dad each a short letter. It was pretty succinct to the point. My mom reaches out maybe once or twice a year, usually via email. Can be a bit nasty sometimes or [gasps] make passive aggressive comments. Dad reaches out out um honestly a lot like via via email monthly. um sometimes more often than that. Usually begging for contact, says he's going to therapy.
He's provided proof of that recently, but none of them ever address anything really that I wrote in the letter. It's just about them, how they feel, how they're feeling empty. They want to see their grandkids. What will your children think when they grow up? What will you say when they grandfather? Afraid they'll never know me. Um you're killing me. I can't I can't live like this. So, I'm curious your your take on this, especially within the context of my parents getting older, inevitable health issues, possible financial things, and then, you know, there's some other people in my extended family. Again, I don't talk to them. It's been a long time, but funerals, my grandma's funeral was a couple weeks ago. Um, I want to be authentic and guard my peace. Um, but I also don't want to have any regrets. Um, so yeah, I guess not that I'm secondg guessing myself. Um, but I just I just wanted to do a little quick sanity check. Um, given that my parents, you know, they they do reach out still.
>> Well, I appreciate that and again, I'm sorry about the whole situation. That's very very difficult, very unpleasant.
[snorts] So, uh, just refresh me and I guess the listeners as well about the backstory.
>> Yeah. So, I'm an only child. Um, my parents kind of split up. They were married. They split up when I was five, got back together when I was like nine.
It was very volatile. Um, and then they divorced for good when I was 11 or 12.
Um, and then I lived with my mom and she went off the rails. I went through a lot of really horrible stuff, horrible, you know, verbal, psychological abuse. Um, my dad didn't do anything to protect me from it. Um, and then it all really culminated in me getting like this like horrible dissociative like actual like disorder. Um, it's called depersonalization. So, it's like basically I felt like it was almost happened in an instant. I was um living somewhere in my apartment looking out the window and then like something just snapped in my mind. I was, you know, I was, it was in 2011. Um, and, uh, you know, it led me on a long journey to figure out like how did this happen, right? Like this is, you know, an emotional sickness probably. It's like the the flip side of enlightenment or something. And uh it took a very long time but two and a half years ago towards the end of 2023 I wrote both my parents a letter um kind of explaining that um and you know my best hope for recovery is to guard my peace be authentic and uh just just leave and and focus on my own recovery and you know mirac I made a miraculous recovery. It was chronic 24/7.
I mean, like living in hell from 2011 all the way until probably early 2024.
Um, and just going through a lot of, you know, your shows, your content, um, the therapy, EMDR, all sorts of different things, journaling, um, everything just lifted and I don't want to go back. I'm not going to go back to to that. But that's the backstory.
>> Got it. Okay. And you're married with how many kids?
>> I have two kids. two young kids.
>> Congratulations. That's lovely. How wonderful. And you said they're in contact with you, your parents, like once or twice a year. Is that right?
>> So m it's like once or twice a year. Um >> Okay. So sorry, we were just uh picking up with your father contacts you a lot more than your mother.
>> That's right. Yeah. So he emails me a lot. um they don't have my number, they don't have my address. And um although I blocked their email address, like it doesn't go, there's no way to stop it from like at least hitting the trash folder. So sometimes when I'm in their browsing, um yeah, I see that he's emailed me and it's just the same exact message every time. And you know, it's like I I I I feel different things when I read. Sometimes I usually feel just disgust like stop at this point. Um sometimes I get angry but usually it's just like this visceral disgust like you need to stop. Um but then again and you know in my letters and I go back and think well I didn't explicitly say don't contact me but then you know I looked at the letters and you know now that I'm a few years out of it um and I wrote them when I was still in that dissociated very very hyper numb state you know they were all business the letters you know they weren't feelings weren't jumping out of the page it was just kind of like here's what happened and here's why.
>> Sorry what do you mean by business letters? Well, the the tone of it was like all business. Like I just kind of listed what happened. Hey, here's the reasons that I'm leaving, you know, my family of origin. I won't be returning to, you know, the state that they lived in. Um, here's why. It's my best hope for recovery from all this stuff. I listed a few little bullet points and I said, "Please prepare for healthcare, financial things." Like, that's it. Um, so it was very matter of fact and I didn't explicitly say don't contact me, but it's been two and a half years now and yeah, they're still they're still trying and I don't want to second guess myself or like go down a rabbit hole of like how I should have worded things or what exactly I should have said, but I also don't want to, you know, ghost, you know, I don't want to ghost my extended. I haven't really talked see to my extended family. Kind of just stopped talking to them because I moved overseas and then I moved back, but I just stopped talking to to my extended family.
And so that's really the thing. It's kind of a two-part question of like, you know, dad's reaching out a lot. I see it from time to time. He's saying he's going to therapy now. He provided proof, but I could tell by the tone of the message like I'm I'm not I'm not judging, but it's the same message every time. and he's not addressing anything that I wrote.
>> What is the message >> from my father?
>> Um, yeah, it's typically like, you're killing me. I I can't, you know, I can't live like this. Like, I'm not seeing my grandkids. What are they going to, you know, I'm afraid they're never going to get to know me. It's a lot of me me I I I um stuff. I did the best I could. I was a good dad. Your mom kicked me out of the house. What was I supposed to do?
Like, she was, you know, she kicked me out. I didn't want to leave. You know, there's just no accountability and it's the whole I I thing. There's been probably 50 or I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 of these emails. The only new thing is, hey, I'm going to therapy. Um because I heard through the grapevine, this is not true, by the way. He's like, I heard through the grapevine that you told someone in the family that if I go to therapy, you'd consider talking to me again. Um, so he attached some receipts and things and he's he's obviously been going, but I I I I'm pretty sure it was just a vent and uh you know, I don't know if it's if he's experiencing like uh epiphies, per se, >> right? I'm I'm really sorry. I mean, it's a it's a very sad situation. Of course, it's nothing that anybody wants in their life. So, I just wanted to first of all express, you know, deep deep sympathies. And what were the major and again I know this is a bit of retread but what were the major issues that you were dealing with before leaving your family other than your own personal dissociative disorder?
>> So I was just really struggling mentally from that and you know in the letter to my dad it was basically three things.
Look you left me with a crazy and dangerous woman mom. You were like so disconnected that you didn't even ask or recognize what I was going through living in this asylum with this woman.
And then you repeated the same situation in your second marriage when he went from the proverbial frying pan into the fire. The second woman was like even way worse. And that's hard to imagine. Um and that was a whole I mean that was just horrific uh threats and just really off-the-wall bizarre stuff. So I that I basically told him the reason. Um and and that was it. I just said I'm not coming back.
>> Okay. And how would your relationship been with your parents prior to the separation?
>> Uh like a very strained on and off causing me stress. Um uh yeah, I mean there were many times I guess maybe like when I was a teenager or like maybe early 20s um like long periods I didn't talk to my mom or I didn't talk to my dad or both of them. then kind of started talking to him again and very on and off. But even when my dad would come and visit me, you know, maybe 2020, 2021, 2022, maybe like, you know, a little bit postcoid, you know, we would have sometimes conversations and he'd be asking me stuff and I'm like, look, like my heart is cold. Like I like you're here, you know, but like I I I just don't want to like I'm kind of done like talking about it. [gasps] Um because I tried many times and it was never productive. I've I tried many times over probably a decade and a half with both of them and it's just not productive. So very strange.
>> Okay. And do you miss them at all?
>> No.
>> Okay.
All right. And so your father is saying kind of the same thing. They're separated. Your mother is saying once or twice a year. I guess nothing major, right? you know, more like she's like addressing the email to like my kids saying happy birthday or or something.
Happy Easter, you know, whatever it is.
Um, and like sometimes it'll be like a like kind of a passive aggressive thing.
I don't know what you call it, but like I wish one day your daddy would let me see you type thing, you know, stuff like that.
>> Daddy. Oh. Oh. To the kids. Oh gosh.
>> Yeah. To the kids. Yeah. Like like that's no good.
>> Yeah. And Right. And and the kids are they ain't going to see that email. But um but yeah, so stuff like that. And then like I guess our last um text, you know, maybe two and a half years ago before I blocked my mom, you know, she was there was like occasionally like talking about like her pursuing legal remedies like there's grandparental rights, you can't do this, and I'm just like, okay, delete.
>> Um but there I know in in Japan, but yeah. Okay. I think so. No, only in like extreme scenarios in some states, but no.
>> Okay, got it. All right. So, um what what can I do that would I want to make sure I sort of give you maximum value as usual. So, what is it that I can do that's going to be the most helpful for you today?
>> Well, I thanks for asking. Um, I I I I have clarity and, you know, I don't miss him and I feel good, but you know, it's not like my dad's not doing anything. I mean, he is going to therapy. He heard that I might consider talking to him if he did that. I'm just so jaded. I know my dad. I know he's going in there to vent. So, I'm a little just curious, you know, your take on that and what, you know, and in my letter I said there can't be a real relationship, dad, mom, when there's serious wrongdoing without restitution. So, you know, that's why we can't continue. So, yeah, maybe he's trying, you know, sometimes restitution is not possible. I listen to all the stuff, your fantastic stuff on that. I get it. And um I don't know. I just think it's it's it's been too long. But then I also, you know, part of me is like, "All right, it's good that he's going to therapy." So, I guess I am a little bit curious on, you know, what the road would look like. I don't miss him and I don't want to re-engage because if I did, it would open it would just open the floodgates and he would never stop harassing me. I'm I dread picking up when he calls. It's just the same thing. like it's so but at the same time I I feel in a way not bad but like it's almost like he can't see the right thing to do but it's not my job to teach him. Um you know I guess I feel a bit conflicted about the fact that he reaches out so much seems to really really want a relationship with me but the content of the letters is [ __ ] Um, but then again, he's also going to therapy. So, it's uh so there there's that. And then just, you know, I'm a little concerned that I ghosted my extended family because they know like stuff was going on. I didn't go to my grandma's funeral a few weeks ago and you they haven't heard from me in a long time. And I never really addressed them with my gripes and my things like my parents. And I just don't want to live with any regrets. I want to be authentic. And I don't want to, you know, I I would I don't want to say ghosting is in my nature, but like I got a lot going. I just like don't want to deal with it, but I want to be more mature than that and uh make sure that I didn't abscond.
>> What do you mean? I know you mean absconded, like ghosted, but what do you mean by that?
>> Like I think there's a lot of folks in my extended family who were like, "Yeah, you had problems with your parents, but what's up? Like you just leave the entire you just leave everyone." And um but from my perspective it's like yeah like I moved overseas and like no one really reached out um and you know when you have a real relationship like you know it's a two-way street. People keep in touch and whatever and then like things happen whether it's funerals or other family events and I'm not going because they're just not like quality relationships and I I'm not I don't say that with any malice or anger. I I just accept it. Um, but I know their perception is like, well, he said screw all of us and you know, or they're bewildered or, you know, they're thinking, yeah, he has a problem with his parents, but what about me? Like, like, you know, I think it's confusing for them. It's not confusing to me really, but I think it's very confusing to them. And I want to make sure that I tie off in a mature way.
>> Yeah. Uh, the problem is it's your wife's fault.
Yeah.
>> Huh.
>> I mean, it's if it's any consolation, it's my wife's fault, too.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. See, the problem is that you actually have someone in your life who cares about you.
>> Yeah.
>> So, that's no good because once you have someone in your life who actually cares about you, everybody else just kind of blows chunks, >> right?
>> And so, I would uh you know, just just blame her. I mean, mostly what we get married for is to have someone to blame, right?
And at least I don't want to speak for all married people, but I would certainly speak for myself that a scapegoat who's also sexy is like the best combo in marriage as a whole. And you have some kids. I assume you'll find your wife sexy. I'm sure she is. So, it's uh it's her. Have you Have you Have you told her?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. We talk about this stuff. I mean, we listen to your show.
We we we're deep and we love talking about this stuff.
>> Okay. But you told her that it's her fault, right?
Um, no.
>> Uh, I no not not in those words. No.
>> Okay. So, let me just talk to her for a sec if if she listens back to this. Uh, my dear my friend, it's your fault. Uh, you care about him. You act in a consistently affectionate manner. You're positive. You're supportive. You're helpful. You're empathetic. You're curious. I'm sure you're a wonderful wife. And, uh, that's um that's spoiling him.
you know, once once you eat at a really great restaurant that then moves into your house, I mean, how can you go back to generic M slop like they'd get in the army, >> right?
>> So, yeah, the I mean, the problem is that she's raised your standards and she's treating you well and she's loving you and and you're like, "Oh, man.
This is what it's supposed to be like.
This is what I was missing." And how are you supposed to go back after that?
Yeah.
>> And I say this, you know, obviously somewhat tongue and cheek, but I mean it's it's very serious. Being loved, like being genuinely loved will absolutely mess up all the trashy non relationships in your life.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, with her, you know, she's not raising my blood pressure. Uh yeah, you know, she asked questions. It's, you know, it's it's lovely. Of course.
>> I mean, she listens to this show >> a lot.
>> My wife doesn't even listen to my No, I'm just kidding. Um, but >> No. So, I mean, I'm dead serious about this. Like, how how are you supposed to go back to [ __ ] sandwiches when you get baked Alaska or I don't know, whatever your particular favorite food is. How How are you supposed to go back to like eating off the floor in in a some sort of sleazy dive when you've got really great food?
>> Yeah. So, yeah, just just if you can tell her, I I'm not saying you'd necessarily tell your family as a whole, but if you can just tell your wife that uh she's put you in a difficult position >> by being nice and loving, >> then uh then again, you can shrug off the responsibility. You can put it on your wife and you can turn her virtues against her uh which is really one of the greatest joys uh and thrills of marriage as a whole. So, all right.
Well, okay. Now we've identified the cause of the problem, we can work towards a solution.
>> Right.
>> So >> I appreciate >> Yeah. Yeah. And what decade of life are you in?
>> Uh 40s. Early 40s.
>> And what decade of life are your parents in?
>> Uh early 70s.
>> Early 70s. Oh, sorry. I don't mean to laugh.
All right.
All right.
Do you know the difference between a personality with a disorder and a personality disorder?
>> No.
>> I mean, there's no particular reason why you would. And I'll just obviously roughly paraphrase it in my own amateur fashion.
>> Mhm.
>> So, a personality with a disorder is a generally functional personality that has some anxiety, maybe some depression, and can be set right. uh therapy, self-nowledge, wisdom, philosophy, love, you know, whatever it's going to be, some combination of bringing the personality to light and reason.
That is a personality with a disorder. And the way that I think of it, have you ever cracked or sprained, no cracked or broken a bone?
>> Uh yeah.
>> Uh which one?
>> Well, I I sprained uh my pinky a few times. I mean, it's not nothing really, but >> you sprained your pinky a few times.
Hang on. I'm drowning in McKismo here.
[laughter] I was thinking of some twist of the tibia or something. Okay.
>> I I never broke a bone. I got into a fight. That's >> okay. So, uh let's let's just look at uh the fruiest metaphor that we're going to freest analogy. I've done it a while.
So, you sprain your finger and then do you go get it x-rayed or do you just ride it out or what do you do?
>> I would say if it's bad enough, you got to go get get an X-ray.
>> Yeah. But what what have you done? What have you done?
>> Um yeah, there are a couple points in my life where uh something hurt like really bad and I hopped over at urgent care. I got an X-ray.
>> Okay. You got an X-ray and they said it's sprains. Try not to move it or whatever they said, right?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. So that is a finger with a disorder. You know, if you if you break your arm, you have an arm with a break.
And of course, the purpose is to to fix it and to return it close to normal functioning. And in fact, you can end up with stronger bones because you've broken your bones because maybe you get into rehab and rehab leads you to exercise and you end up lifting weights or whatever it is you're doing. So you end up stronger because you've broken a bone. Right? So that is an arm or a body part with a disorder uh that can be fixed. Right? Yeah.
>> Now, a personality disorder is not a personality with a disorder. It is a personality that is a disorder.
>> Yeah.
>> And what that is is the way that I view it, again, obviously my amateur fashion is when I'm looking, I imagine being a doctor, right? And I say, "Okay, so this this person's come in. They're they've got blood. They're covered in a sheet."
And I lift up the sheet. And if I see a broken arm, then I will obviously try to uh fix the arm, maybe you got to open it up, put some bolts in or whatever freaky cyborg stuff they do these days. And then the person gets back to using their arm, right? This is sort of akin to somebody's got anxiety. You teach them some sort of stress management or something like that, right? Depression, maybe they're surrounded by jerks and you try and figure that out. However, if it's the doctor, I lift up the sheet and there's a stump and I say, "What the hell happened?" It's like, "Oh, yeah, a shark bit off his arm and swam away." Right now, that is not a broken arm. That's a missing arm.
>> Yep.
>> And what are my options?
>> Yeah. Limited.
>> Well, sew it up, right?
>> Yeah. I I'm not going to I'm not going to put a a spigot on or [laughter] you know some sort of robot arm or a vacuum attachment and just okay you are now a guy without an arm and that arm is not going to regrow >> for sure.
So when I am looking at people in my life or in my past, I say to myself, are they a person with a disorder or are they a person who is a disorder?
And >> the disorder aspect is usually something to do with what's called an observing ego. The observing ego is the part of you that evaluates your behavior and compares it to ideal standards. So for instance, nobody considers you anxious if you feel fear running away from a bear in the woods, right? That's not an anxiety disorder. That's a don't want to get eaten by the beard by the bear sort of non-disorder.
>> And so what I do is I look for somebody who has the ability to evaluate their own behavior and compare it to some higher or better standard. So, for instance, if people are waking up and their heart's pounding and they're sweating, the palms are sweating and they can they're dizzy and and you know, their pupils are dilated. They're like full fight orflight stress responses and they're they're not in any particular danger. I assume that people would say, "Gee, uh, I didn't feel like this yesterday. This is a deviation from normal healthy behavior. I need to fix it." If that makes sense.
>> Yeah.
Now for the observing ego, there has to be something outside the disorder. There has to be a part of you that looks at depression or anxiety or uh rage issues or something like that and says, "Gee, this is not great. This is not ideal. I would like to improve this."
>> I'm sorry for the lengthy explanation. I I promise I can virtually promise. I can't guarantee. a conversion promise would really help cuz I'm talking of course about how to evaluate your parents in my opinion.
>> Right?
>> So [sighs] I'm sure that you and your wife and your children have the ability to observe their own behavior and say how does this compare to an an ideal standard >> if that makes sense.
>> We do it >> all the time.
>> Yeah. All the time. Right. That's that's what we do and that's what healthy people do. Even if we have some stress, some depression, some anxiety or whatever, we say, "Okay, this is a deviation. Um, my my my pinky is swollen, it's hurting, so I need to do whatever I need to do to get it back to some sort of normal or functional state."
So, when looking at your parents, in my view, what you need to do is figure out, are they a person with a broken arm or a person with no arm?
If it's a person with a broken arm, hopefully you can fix it. not as a doctor, but just a, you know, you tell them to go to a doctor, but nobody [clears throat] tells somebody like you meet some guy at a party who's got no left arm. You don't say to him, "Man, you should really regrow that."
[laughter] >> Like, why why haven't you regrown?
Because that would be mean, right? That would be cruel because he can't regrow his arm. There's an old website talked about by Richard Dawkins called God hate Godhates amputees.com, which is God heals everything except things like amputations. People say, "Oh, I had a tumor and my tumor is gone or I had a this and this is gone." And but they he never regrows an arm, right?
There's no picture of some guy who's lost an arm and then look at it's me. I have my right. So God hates amputes. So So that's what I do. And what I would suggest is you obviously have 40 plus years uh experience with your parents.
Think back to a time.
Have they ever said of their own valition, of their own free will, not court-ordered, not mandated, not because they're cornered, not because they're going to suffer if they don't admit something. Have they ever woken up or said something or was like, "Wow, you know, I really did not do well with that. That behavior was really bad. Uh that behavior was really negative. Uh gosh, I need to do better. This is not positive." Uh some sort of wakeup call or some sort of change.
Now, if you think back over the course of your life with your parents, like 40 40 plus years, how many times, if any, have your parents of their own free will said, "Oo, you know, that was not great what I did yesterday or what I did this morning. I've really apologized and I've got to I've got to really do better with that."
>> Yeah. My dad zero times. um my mom a few times, but it was more insulting because the behavior like immediately continued.
So it was more of like a you know like psychological whiplash thing. So uh effectively zero.
>> Okay. So and I'm just curious about that and it's very interesting to me. So your mother, give me some examples of of what happened with your mother.
>> Uh yeah, that's easy. go just like crazy blood curdling psychotic screaming and ver verbal abuse and calling me all sorts of names and then like she'd snap out of it and then she would just like profusely apologize um and say well even though I said this like you know I don't mean that like like they're just words I don't >> sorry that's not apologizing that's minimizing >> yeah for sure for sure >> no no don't say for sure that's a different thing >> yes >> different thing to apologize is to excuse. The moment somebody makes excuses, that's not an apology. That's minimizing. It's quite the opposite.
It's saying, "Well, I didn't really mean it." And if you're upset, then clearly you're the problem.
>> Yes. She wanted an eraser. Uh, not repair. That's right.
>> Okay. Sorry. I thought you were there was more. So, it sounds like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so of course, if I'm incorrect or inaccurate, please correct me as always.
So, it sounds like she went too far and had a panic and needed to do some kind of damage control.
>> Yes. Yeah. It's it's it's hard. I mean to even think because it was so so night and day. Um you know it just confused me and the next day she did the same thing.
So like her words didn't mean anything.
Yeah. She thought it was damage control.
I mean I don't know. I guess >> she didn't apologize as far as I can tell. She said uh I I didn't mean it.
You know but but that's that's not an apology. She has uh she has said I'm sorry like like you know these prefun it's it's words you know it's >> well I'm but I'm sorry for what anyone can say I'm sorry.
>> Yeah I mean she's she's said I'm sorry for calling you those names. Um you know when I get in a state like that you know I I don't mean it but I can't >> that's not an apology again. Sorry to be I'm sorry to be annoying. I really am as usual.
>> No I I I don't disagree.
>> I didn't mean it is is not an apology.
>> Yeah. Um, right. Right. So, no. Yeah, there's no accountability and that's that's a good point. So, no, zero for each.
>> Okay. So, if your parents have gotten to their 70s without having observed their own behavior and comparing it to any ideal standard, then they are not people with a problem. They are people who are a problem. There is no outside ego or outside agency. and certainly no higher standard that they are willing to compare their own behavior to find themselves wanting to and work to improve >> without question. And you know, knowing about my mom's childhood, >> no.
>> Well, no. Oh my gosh. Don't don't domino me, bro.
>> I wasn't going to say I wasn't going to go perhaps where you think I was going to go.
>> All right. But certainly happy to let you take me on a journey.
>> Fair. Fair. Um, yeah. No, I wasn't I wasn't saying that to uh to excuse them.
Quite the opposite. I was saying um knowing how they were raised, it makes perfect sense to me. Um why there would be uh a stump and not a sprain. So, it just provides clarity. Um >> no, you said exactly what I thought you were going to do. [laughter] >> Sorry again. I apologize, but you did exactly what I was afraid you were going to do.
>> Go on. Well, you're saying that they are the way they are because of their childhood. That they are a stump.
Because of their childhood.
>> Well, I was going to say they chose not to to take any action to to remediate it or to to I mean, I I've gone on a tremendous journey of personal growth.
It's a process. They've done none of that, you know, >> right? They have chosen they have chosen to justify their own behaviors rather than work to improve. Right?
Everyone has um what do they call it? A sliding scale or something like that or a bell curve.
No, no. A grading curve where it drove a friend of mine nuts in university when he took a math and physics double major and people would get 20 to 25 degrees on an exam and then they'd all get graded up to 75. Like you just [gasps] adjust the grades so that people would pass. And he said, I'm, you know, the professor said, I make the exams crazy difficult because nobody minds being graded up, but everybody hates being graded down, so I can't make the exams too easy. So, uh, so it's not childhood and unless there's, you know, physical brain damage or something like that, right? But it's not childhood.
It's a fork in the road. a fork in the road where everyone has to say do I improve myself or do I justify and attack because these two things always go hand in hand. I mean, I'm sure you've heard of this uh up until quite recently, there was this before, there was this body positivity movement, right?
>> Right. And so people are uh obese and that's unhealthy. It's bad for the environment. It's bad for just about everything and bad for fertility and so on. And what they did was they could say these people need to lose weight. It's unhealthy and it's wrong and it's greedy and it's a sin of gluttony and there may be psychological trauma which you know needs to be dealt with but you don't deal with it by eating right. So [clears throat] what did people do? They redefined, right, that I can be healthy at any size.
>> And then they [clears throat] attacked as fat phobic anybody who didn't accept this explanation, right? Because it wasn't an explanation, it was a justification. So when you are in a state of negativity, in this case it would be obesity, you can either say, "I'm unhealthy and I need to deal with whatever is causing me to overeat and I need to get to a healthier weight." Or you can say, "I'm perfect. Nature loves me the way I am. And anybody who has a problem with me is fat phobic, and I'm going to attack them."
Now, does that get commanded? Does that choice get commanded by childhood?
>> No.
I mean, I'm sorry to be annoying because I I can imagine some scenarios where, I don't know, someone is like raised in a basement and subjected to all kinds of torture and assault. Like, I can imagine that there could be extreme situations where it would be fairly impossible. But even then, even people who've been raised in the most appalling situations can often have >> uh warmth and and humanity and so on, right?
>> Mhm. And so it's interesting to me, of course, as usual, that when I was talking about your parents not taking responsibility for their own lives, the first place you went was >> childhood >> in order to in my in my mind I mean in my mind, as I was saying it, it's not to defend. I mean, I I I'm angry at them and I don't want to defend them, but it was a process of me thinking through is this a personality with a disorder or a personality disorder. And then I'm thinking, you know, going back to the past, not not in a sense to defend or justify, but to like understand like the ideology of it and and where it came from. And then you get to a certain point where you're an adult and now okay you have had 50 years to uh observe yourself and and do something and hasn't been done. So my reasoning only took me halfway through um that. So um you know I'm a longtime listener and that that all makes perfect sense. I was just kind of trying to to to to look at a a narrative to figure out is this a although I know the answer. Is this a personality with a disorder?
>> Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. So, and and what I understood, and perhaps I jumped the gun, too, so I'm sorry if I did, but what I understood was when I was talking about people who have personality disorders and you go to childhood, my understanding was you're saying this is where the personality disorders come from. Is there about childhoods?
>> Uh, yes, that that's that that's correct. That is what I was thinking.
Yeah.
>> Well, and that's a excuse. Well, well, >> would I mean, unless I misunderstand something, I'm certainly happy to hear uh another explanation.
>> Well, you know, I'm I'm just I'm just trying to uh reconcile two different things.
So, what you just said, but also, you know, this idea that again, I'm not an expert. you're not an expert in in in psychology and mental disorders, but you know, some some folks believe, you know, mental disorders are really emotional disorders. And uh the roots are are are in childhood. Um and uh again, this is I'm just sharing this subjectively. I'm not saying that this is I'm not saying it to offend anyone. I'm trying to reconcile the two ideas that a personality disorder doesn't have its roots in childhood, but a mental or emotional disorder would. Um maybe you can help explain that a little better.
>> Well, we're dealing with your parents in their 70s.
>> So, it certainly is the case that people with bad childhoods have emotional difficulties and significant cognitive and psychological >> challenges.
>> And then you have 50 years out. I get it. Okay. Yeah. Got it.
>> So, the question is and to to revisit our broken bone analogy, it would be something like this. [sighs] So if your bone is broken as a child, uh let's say no, let's not make it a child.
You break your bone. You break your arm as a young man and you know that something's wrong cuz your arm is painful and funny or whatever it is, right? It's looking funny, sitting funny.
And then either you go and get it treated and you recover your arm and you you recover your mobility and you and all or you leave it untreated and then eventually your arm has to be amputated.
Now what is the cause of the amputation?
>> Not addressing it soon enough, >> right? It's not the broken bone. Now it's necessary but not sufficient. In other words, you wouldn't have your arm amputated if you didn't have a broken bone. But the broken bone does not cause the amputation.
>> Yeah, it's a perfect analogy.
>> Yeah. So, when I say your parents' arms are missing, you say, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense because they had their arms broken when they were kids." It's like, it's not it though because as I said earlier, >> and I think this is probably the case with you and I and you know, if your wife had a bad childhood, something like that with her. But if you get your arm broken, as I said earlier, and just cuz I said it doesn't mean it's an analogy. It doesn't prove anything. But if you have your arm broken, you can end up with a stronger arm.
>> Sure.
>> So, a broken arm does not mean your arm gets amputated. But if you don't treat it, >> then it's amputated. Now, of course, the problem is So, your parents had you in their 30s, right? Early >> Yeah. 30.
>> So, the problem is by the time you meet your parents, they have no arm. They're missing their left arm, let's say. Mhm.
>> And it's all healed over, right?
>> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Maybe they have some kind of prosthetic or whatever it is, right? And so for you, you meet them when they're missing an arm.
>> Mhm.
>> And then you find out that their arm got broken as a child. And you say, "Oh, that's why they don't have an arm."
Because by the time we meet them, the arm is gone. It's all healed over. And we don't see the process of failing to treat it that ends up with it being amputated. we just see the after effect of it not being treated if that makes sense.
>> Yeah. No, it's very illuminating.
>> So the reason I'm digging into this particular topic is because if you say my parents have intractable psychological issues because of their childhood, what emotion will be blunted the most from that perspective? my rage, my anger.
>> Right. So, tell me about that.
>> Yeah. I mean, uh yeah, you know, I I was I was so numb. I couldn't feel anything.
I mean, nothing. I mean, I used I used to have to envision wild, heinous scenarios just to get just to get a rise, just to feel something like just to see if I could still feel angry. And then, um you know, so so yeah, I've done a lot of therapy. I've talked to you a few times as well. um just you know to chat and um so I wrote them the letter um and then it and then it was after that that that all the rage you know started I would say all the rage ra you know rage and feelings and anger started coming back. I started to uh to feel again and step into authenticity and and um a lot of emotions and it felt uh it felt it felt great. Um but you know this perspective you know bad summary of what you said but you know that they had 50 years to fix this thing um it just wasn't worth it to them um it provokes rage a new for sure um but um yeah to just never take accountability and you know I guess at first I viewed it as a bit conflicting like oh like my dad going to therapy. I want to change. I'm doing this. I'm doing this. Like, but the only reason he went is because he heard from someone that that I talked to him if he did it.
And it's like a checkbox and like you need to do it now at 70. Like our relationship was strained for like 20 years. Um so it never mattered to you and until I made a you know quite declarative move you um so uh no that's uh yeah that's it's just it's just really screwed up. There's there's no observing ego. There's no like um there there there's no ideal that he you know I could never envision my parents saying look this this would have been ide like they they can't make that comparison um because they because you know for example my dad thinks his own childhood was idilic and perfect and um you can't even talk to him about it so um it's just uh it's insulting >> sorry It's insulting. What do you mean?
>> That you have a strange relationship with your kid for so long and you know the the only time you even make one step you know as as a formality um is you know 20 years you know 20 plus years after the problems started. It's uh you know it communicates that uh I'm not that I that I just wasn't worth it.
You know what my gripes were not real.
Um that uh you know they're just self-absorbed [ __ ] and uh you know that I and again having kids you know I look at the way I relate to my kids. Um every day that goes by with my kids I get angrier at my angrier at my parents.
um that's been a running theme now for like the past two or three years. Um so yeah, it's [ __ ] >> right? And there's one sort of final wrinkle which I can deliver fairly succinctly. Well, who am I kidding?
Somewhat succinctly >> about the people with no no arm.
>> They don't know that they don't have an arm. They look down and they see, you know, these phantom limbs, you know, people Yeah. It's like, but they look down and they see their they see that they have an arm. And most people treat them as if they have both arms. They mime handshakes. They uh pretend that they could do cartwheels all together.
They like most people. And so not having the arm is not having empathy, but they think they have empathy. They think they're kind. They think they're nice. They think they have the arm and everyone treats them as if they do.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you come along and you say, "You're missing an arm." And they're like, "What?" They look down. I'm like, "What are you talking about? I can knock this arm. I can knock both arms on the counter." Like, "What are you talking about? Nobody else has told me I don't have an arm. Are you crazy?"
>> Yeah. It's like talking I mean, especially it's my dad is just talking to a brick wall. I mean, it's it's it used to be so frustrating. Um, so frustrating, >> right? And then, and then they say, "Hey, um, I want to be on your baseball team." And you say, "You can't be on my baseball team. You only have one arm."
>> We're full.
>> I'm sorry.
>> I said, "We're full.
>> We're full." Yeah. And they're like, "Well, what do you mean I can't be on your baseball team? I'm good. I've been on other people's baseball teams."
Or it's sort of like some, >> you know, when you you've got kids, they do drawings and you're thrilled that they they're the first lollipop. Oh, that's beautiful, right? First lollipop people they make or whatever, right?
>> And you're supposed to have that kind of ridiculous cheerleading enthusiasm for your kids when they're young. And then of course, as you get older, you're supposed to be more realistic, right?
>> Mhm.
>> You know, the first time your kid sings Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, it's beautiful, right? Now, it's quite different if they want to become a professional singer. then you have to have sort of slightly different standards because you got to be realistic, right? So, >> Mhm.
>> It's like those really bad singers that run up against the judges in those singing like Simon Cowell, I think his name is or whatever it is, right? Well, I am like he's like, "You're terrible."
Like, "I'm sorry, you're terrible." But they've been told that they're great.
And it's so to go back to the arm analogy, your father wants to go fishing with you and he wants to play well I guess you can play tennis with one arm um because you have back hands or whatever but you know I don't know whatever sports you need that need two hands maybe basketball or baseball or some or something like that or football you got to catch with two arms or whatever right and he has been treated his whole life as he has two arms everybody's faked it for him and then he wants to join your team and you see that he's only one arm and you keep saying no. So what's his response? What how does he react?
>> Bewildered >> and well he doesn't do this. I mean in this situation he's not gotten angry and like erupted or or or that but you know yeah he'd be like what the hell? What are you doing? Like what's going on? They would get angry.
>> Right. And your mother [snorts] >> yeah she kind of >> sounds like she has no arms or something like that. And so everyone is pretending that these people have arms and you see that they don't have arms and there's a contradiction, >> right? There's a contradiction.
>> Yeah.
>> And how do they handle that contradiction? Well, if if somebody came up to me and said, "Steph, you have only one arm." And I'm like, "No, no, knocking on the table. I'm, you know, I'm juggling. I'm like, check with my wife. I look in the mirror. I go to the doctor and everyone says, "You have two arms." What do I think of the person who says, "Bro, you have one arm."
>> Crazy liar.
>> Right. And how do your parents treat with or treat or deal with your criticisms with them?
>> Um they they they don't even address them. They they they just they just dismiss them. Like they just want to erase it and like forget it.
Um or or they they blame like other things like like oh you took like some pill for your skin and it made you like crazy when you were younger like [clears throat] >> like Accutane or what like for pimples?
>> You nailed it. Yeah, you nailed it.
>> Yeah. Oh, so they think that Accutane gave you the illusion that they have only one arm.
>> Well, no. Well, >> or that you That's why you're criticizing them because you took Accutane. Well, they they'll say, "Oh, I had these uh these dissociative issues, depersonalization, derealization, the the these these crippling chronic 24/7 uh things. You feel like, you know, you're smoking weed. You feel like you're on on drugs every day." Like, you can't even determine reality. Um Oh, that was because it it was the catalyst the first time. um when I I I took this is just a sidebar, but I took the medication and it was the catalyst, but but but what sets the foundation for someone to have that type of response.
So, um but yeah, they continue my mom continues to uh say, "Yeah, well, you know, uh that really was it was more the pill, you know, that that that gave you a lot of problems and you always kind of fought with that over the years." And I'm like, "True, yeah, it did cause problems." That's not debatable, but um there's plenty of people, you know, what about the what about the tenuous foundation that was laid um you know in the years prior all that. So it's just a sidebar, but to answer your question, um yeah, they take no accountability and they uh to use your your word, they scapegoat, >> okay, >> in a bad way.
>> So So is that a side effect? I I don't know much about >> Accutane. Is that is that a side effect?
>> Depersonalization.
Uh yeah, they banned it. They banned the uh medicine. Yeah, it's it causes there's a lot of bad stuff uh that you could read out there. Um ruining people's lives. A kid um flew a plane, young kid flew a plane into a building while he was on it. He was freaking out. So, uh yeah, I had a had a horrible reaction, but like it's just Yes, I did, but it's just not relevant.
This is not we're not talking about pharmaceuticals like uh that that's what I would say to my mom, right? So, um, so yeah, I'm with you there. You know, they just try to put it on other things. They want eraser, uh, not repair. That's how I see it. So, um, that's interesting. I mean, I just looked this up and common side effects, less common but notable, and then more rare mood or psychiatric changes, depression, anxiety, irritability, aggression, psychosis, suicidal thoughts, behavioral changes.
These have been reported. Some resolve after stopping, but monitoring is essential. Not everyone experiences this in causality is debated.
So it doesn't seem to be that it's directly >> I yeah >> nasty there's some nasty side effects of this thing. Holy crap.
>> Well, that's a whole another thing. But yeah. Yeah. So um and I also I doubled up on the dose when I was 17. I think I took extra cuz I hated having acne and I took too much and that really put me over the edge. that that that's um again I don't know but um yeah I was taking two months I was I was taking double >> it's still available so um >> well certain forms of it where like boundary continued in certain certain regions but I think uh there are probably probably places you can get it it's just just retinol vitamin so there's probably original brand name Accutane was discontinued in the US in 2009 for business reasons not safety or efficacy issues [gasps] uh [sighs] generic versions of isotinone isotin.
>> Got it. Interesting.
>> Um so she'll occasionally bring that up.
Um and then on my dad's side, you know, when when the f like he he he likes to play the victim to the family. Like again, I haven't talked to these to them in a very long time, but up until like I would hear through the grape vine like friends of the family like, "Oh, your dad's always saying like he's like I was the perfect father. Like what? Like I can't it's killing me inside. I want you know my son back in in my life." And he's still he's doing the same thing like what's going on? Why won't he? And he's and he's like tracking down family members to like get to me. Uh it's at the point where every time I get an email I'm like this is harassment. I even talked to a lawyer and um I was like what can I do? I don't want to reach out because that's just going to embolden him to like keep sending more emails. Um but like I was like are there any legal remedies I can pursue? Um because I mean it is harassment. Um because it's just so often and I and like years I told him like don't like stop. [gasps] Um so yeah but to get back >> sorry I may have misunderstood you earlier. I thought that earlier you had said that you had not told them to directly to not contact you.
>> That is true. I didn't explicitly say I mean like after I sent it like months later I I occasionally go back and I and I read the letters that I wrote and um the first thing the first letter I was like ah I it didn't explicitly say don't contact me and I was like I should probably put that in there. But um I don't know I think it was more than implicit. Uh I said I'm not returning to that state. make arrangements for your healthcare, finances. It's two and a half years now and all the extended family like they know like they they know very well like I have moved on um and I'm pursuing more genuine relationships. So I didn't explicitly say it but it's quite obvious I >> Yeah. No, that's that's fine. And what did the lawyer say just out of curiosity?
>> Um he said that there's really nothing you can do. He said you can like I was like well well can't can you just write something on your letter head so it like seems like intimidating like seriously stop. He's like, "Yeah, yeah, but it's not enforceable at all." He's like, "I'll do it for you, but it's like totally meaningless. Um, but if you want me to do it, I'll do it." He said, >> "And they'll just run it through AI and I will tell them it's totally meaningless and all that, right?"
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I still see in my trash bin uh in my email, you know, from from time to time. And >> And is that right? Like, you can't block it source.
>> No. No. There's no way. I I've tried I've tried and I could change I want to change my I mean I could have >> in outlet sorry not outlet in in Outlook uh my understanding is that you can say if it's from this email address permanently delete it from the server.
>> Yeah. Well I I uh I'm not out on the on the platform I'm on. Um you can do that but it's but it still sends it to the trash. Um, but again, I can just >> I'm sorry to be annoying and I'm sure you've thought of all of this stuff.
You're an intelligent fellow, but I mean, why not just change the program you use? Look out for programs. Look out for programs that can delete stuff from the server without ever downloading it and you never see it.
>> Yeah, I mean, I changed my phone number.
I mean, I moved overseas, but that like that solved that. U and and it's easier with the phone, but but um yeah, I have some I mean, I just uh I didn't want to change my email cuz I it's just like it's is that that email address is very important to uh >> No, I'm not saying change the email. I'm saying change the client service provider or the server provider so that if it's from such and such an email, permanently delete it from the server and don't download it. Um those are options. Anyway, I you can look into it.
No, I mean I look Yeah, I mean I I hear what you're saying. Um I I didn't like the most aggressive option was um like do not ever allow any mail from these email addresses. And I did that and it's still hitting the trash. So I mean I have willpower. I don't need to be digging through my trash. There's nothing, you know, spam. Okay. But uh it goes to the trash directly. So I don't need to do that. But it does feel like harassment at this point when when he's just like he never stops. And >> And how many emails are you getting on?
I mean, like usually on like Sunday night when he's lonely. Um I don't know, like uh one or two a month and they're just all the same. They're always the same and I either get disgusted or like it really pisses me off. Um because it is it's like harassing me. Um so, uh maybe I just need to uh stop rummaging or pursue a a different or look deeper into it. I thought I got to the bottom of it, but >> all right. I'm just having a look here.
And again, um, [sighs] >> okay, here's a clear list of email programs. Desktop client >> Gmail.
>> Yeah, it's Gmail. So, I don't know if there I'm not like a tech wiz, but if there's a way to do it on Gmail, it's >> you just all you do is you use a program and tie it to your Gmail account.
>> Oh, like a plugin or something. Okay.
>> No, no, it's just like Outlook can receive Gmail, Gmails.
So here's so I asked list email programs that can delete email from a specific emails from the server before downloading them and uh something called mailwasher pro and there's mailwasher free Thunderbird is free. So use message filters or rules based on sender subject keywords to automatically delete matching emails from the server before or upon download so that you don't uh you don't see them at all. You can do that with Microsoft Outlet, Apple Mail, something called Mailbird. Anyway, um you can >> Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah, I didn't know like I just I didn't think of that at all. So, I appreciate that. And uh yeah, for sure. For sure. I'll look into that because, you know, no sense in uh uh spiking my cortisol, you know, twice twice a month for no reason. So, >> Oh, yeah. No, you don't want that stuff because it's just continually triggering, right?
>> Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, uh um yeah, thanks for that. Uh um u many email providers Gmail.com also offer serverside filters or rules you can set up via webmail. These can delete or archive messages before any client touches them.
>> Oh wow.
>> So anyway, you can uh Gro is usually the best AI. You can you can do all of this and you don't need obviously smart enough to do all of this yourself but yeah you never have to see the emails.
>> It's it's appreciated for sure. So, so you know my my my last little offshoot question um and it's it's related but uh could I ask you one more thing um about down the line a question about you know I don't know how to frame it because I don't it's not the morality of it but terms of like things like an inheritance or um funerals or you know it it just I don't want to have any regrets. Like I said, I want to guard my peace. Um, but I've the last lingering last niggling thing in my mind has always been like, well, like I'm going to get a call one day from someone somehow or a LinkedIn message or something saying you got to go back to XYZ and clean out the house.
>> Uh, yes. No, I've I've had that call.
Yeah.
>> Wow. hauling and >> yeah I see some experience on this but yeah go ahead sorry >> yeah yeah yeah and so and so I so my my question is like yeah I would love to hear of course only share with you know what you're comfortable with but your take on that and then also like you know like in terms of like an inheritance or you know if my parents still want me want to leave money to me or probably not me but my you know my kids um issues like that go clean out the house, the funeral. We need someone to do this, buy this, got to sort the funeral. And it it's it's been on my mind for a couple of years and uh I just I'm at a loss. I just don't even know.
Like my only instinct is would I don't want to say ghost, but like you know, just to >> Sorry, you're at a loss about what?
>> At a loss to like figure out the answer that um >> No, but answer to what question? what to do if my parents want to, you know, uh, after they die, if they want to like leave me, if they have it in their will to leave me money or my kids money >> or other people in their orbit asking me to go back to the house or telling me, "Oh, >> okay." So, one thing at a time, one thing at a time. Okay. So, if they leave you money, again, I'm no lawyer, right?
[clears throat] But my understanding would be if they leave you money, then you get the money. it just comes to you through legal channels, right?
>> Fair. And >> if they leave your children money, uh I assume it would be in some sort of trust or something like that, then you would get the money through legal channels through the probate or whatever's going on with the will.
>> Okay, then that makes sense. And I guess my question more is more like I I don't know like it just it feels um like I don't like I don't talk to them.
uh forever. I cut off contact. Um don't want to associate with them, talk to them, but that I'm going to take money from them. Like I'm not saying I have an answer either way, but that that I I don't feel right taking money from them for me or my children after completely leaving my family abortion and disconnecting. I just feel like, >> well, then you can give the money to charity or donate it to a worthy philosophical cause, right? But I mean, if you don't want to take the money, you can give the money to a worthy cause or whatever.
>> Yeah. I feel weird about, you know, taking the proceeds from their house or any or any other assets they would have.
I I I would feel I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I I would feel um I I just it would I'd feel like almost gross like like >> Yeah. I mean, I was offered some money from my father's estate and I said, "Just give it to another relative who needs it.
Right. And you said you got the you got a phone call to uh head back home and and kind of >> No, I can't do that. It was it was co so I couldn't get to the country.
>> That's right. Okay.
>> Okay. Yeah. Um >> but help me understand why it's I won't say tormenting you, but why why is it so much on your mind? And I'm this is not a criticism like oh why are you so obsessed. I don't mean that at all. I'm just this is a you know they're likely going to live for another 10 years or 15 years or you know the average age of death is like mid mid to late 80s particularly for you know maybe people with some resources or smarter people or whatever right so if you're you know 15 years out why is it on your mind at the moment that I mean there's nothing imminent I think is that right or is it >> yeah right yeah no I think I think you're right I I I just wanted some like closure that in my mind I'm sure it doesn't exist but in my mind like I've sorted it all out and if and when I got [clears throat] uh >> when a phone I'll know what >> Yeah. Sorry.
>> That's not an if they're not immortal unless you die first in which case you don't have to worry about that at all.
>> All right. I guess they're not going to merge with the machines.
>> So when you get the call right >> like the fall I I I wanted to like Yeah.
Yeah, I guess it's probably just a form it's it's probably just a form of anxiety where I'm thinking I have to like tie off on everything in my mind.
>> Okay, but hang on. So, but if you've got something that is unlikely to happen for at least 10 to 15, could be 20 years, right?
>> Then what is it on your mind for at the moment? And it's not a criticism. I'm just curious.
>> Yeah. Um, I think I'm dreading getting those phone calls and I'm trying to >> Why are you and I'm I'm curious about this too. [gasps] >> Why are you dreading getting those phone calls or email? No, nobody's got your number. Is that right? So, yeah. Why would you dread getting the email that say um well, let's just say they both die in a car crash or something in in 10 years from now or whatever, right? And there's an email says your parents both died in a car crash. Why are you dreading that?
>> And again, I'm not saying you shouldn't dread it. I'm just curious why you do.
>> Uh I think it's some lingering sentimentality and and thinking it's it's just so sad what happened. Uh that, you know, things are thinking, you know, my my mom getting sick and she's all alone and she's suffering and she's alone and she's scared and sick and um that it ended up that way and and I don't want either of my parents.
>> You mean it ended up that way? What What does that mean?
>> These are all the result of specific daily choices.
>> Yeah. I thought you've got your standards, right? So, I'm not sure what you mean by it ended up that way. Like, if >> if you've got some uncle who smokes like a chimney and you tell him, "Man, you got to start smoking." And then he gets sick. It doesn't end up that way. That's every cigarette he smokes. Raise the odds, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. And um Yes. And logically, I totally know that. Um, but I still feel bad.
>> Okay. And would you like to not feel bad? I assume that's partly why you're calling me, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, that's the last bit. It was just like, yeah, I think you got to the heart of it. Like, it's not all these logistical things of who's going to do what. I think Yeah, it's that I'm going to feel bad. You are concerned about regret.
>> Yes. And there's still things that you and and again, none of this is critical, right? But there's still things you haven't processed about your parents dying that you're afraid are going to hit you after the fact and with regret and oh my gosh, I should have done this and oh, you know, cuz there there's this curse, right? This general curse that's put out particularly against the victims of child abuse. Oh, but when they're dead, you're going to regret it. You're going to regret not reaching out and you'll regret it for the rest of your life. There's this weird >> freaking gypsy curse that is put on >> the victims of child abuse.
>> Mhm.
>> And you're afraid of that curse. It's almost like being haunted, right?
>> Yeah.
>> And you're afraid that you will have bitter regret and there'll be this big onrush of, oh my gosh, I should have, would have, could have kind of stuff, right?
>> It's it's to be honest, I don't it's um it's not so much the second part of it like would a could have, should have.
It's like um I just I I I I I feel so bad for them. Again, I I know it's their choices, but I I still feel bad like the thought of my mom suffering.
It's like cuz she seems have I guess she seems so like like weak. the thought of her being weak and old and helpless and or or even the fact that um if I just went into the hospital, let's just say in the future, I went to the hospital and I held her hand and she could see me one last time to uh like to give her a fleeting moment of joy or talk to her or laugh about something. Um, uh, I don't see myself doing that, but I sometimes think, and I know I'm not responsible to like bring her joy in that way and to like fill the the gaping hole in her heart, but I remember um, a recent podcast you uploaded, super recently actually, I think. Um, and you mentioned about about your dad and and you didn't get the phone call um, and no one gave you the opportunity or something like that. Um, and I don't know if you said that you you would have liked the chance to um see him in his final moments. Uh, can't really remember.
>> God, no.
>> No, I didn't see him in his final moments.
>> I would like I would like to have had a father now. Maybe maybe my I don't even know how he died, right? Maybe he got hit by a bus and but I assume given that his age that he was uh he knew that he was ill. He knew that there was probably at some point the doctors just kind of shake their head and say, "All we can do is make you comfortable and so on." I would have liked to have had the kind of father who would have contacted me, but I didn't.
>> Um, right. Okay.
>> I would like to have had the kind of father where I would rush to his bedside, but I didn't.
>> What would you What would your take have been if he did contact you?
>> What are you talking about? I mean, if he did reach out and say >> You mean if he was an entirely different human being, then he wouldn't be my father.
>> Yeah. Um, >> that'd be like saying, "Well, if if my wife was a man, I'd be gay." I mean, but she's not. Last time I checked.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm trying to I'm trying.
>> No. Help me understand these questions.
What if your father had been an entirely different human being?
>> That's I'm not I wasn't exactly So, I mean, >> no, you kind of were. I'm not offended by it, but you kind of were.
>> Yeah. longer.
>> I mean, I'm thinking I'm thinking like I know my dad's going to reach out or the information is going to get to me somehow like your dad's in his final hours and he wants to see you and I'm going to have a decision to make and um again, it's not an imminent thing. I don't know why I'm thinking about this.
Uh but I know he will reach out and Okay, why would he reach out?
>> To see me or his grandkids one last time.
>> Yes, but but why? cuz he's lonely.
>> So, it'll be for him.
>> Yeah.
>> Will he reach out because he he thinks it will be beneficial to you?
>> He he might say, you know, something like um I mean, he said when my when my grandma passed away a few weeks ago, come back, you know, uh see her one last time. You don't want to have any regrets. You'll regret this. You know, when you're someone saying this [ __ ] ref Yeah.
on you.
>> Um, yeah. And and and it, yeah, it was like an opportunity for him to kind of emotionally manipulate me and use the gravity situation to kind of get me to go back to that state and have the possibility of seeing me. So, yeah.
>> Right. So, would he think about what would be beneficial for you?
>> No. Oh, he he definitely would not.
>> So, then you don't go.
Now my father I think of all the family members did not reach out to me the most so to speak right.
>> Mhm.
>> Now why did my father stay in contact with my brother other people but not me?
>> They were uh not interfering with him observing his ego.
>> Well cuz I'm honest, >> right?
>> I mean I I told him what happened in my childhood. I told him how angry I was at him abandoning me and I told him stuff that my mother had done and I told him all of that.
>> Yeah, same.
>> So for my father again I don't know his mind is now many years dust but for my father for him to contact me and to apologize and to make his peace and so on right would have benefited me if that makes sense.
But it would not have benefited him.
>> Yeah.
>> Because he would have to admit that he did great wrong and he would feel bad.
Right.
>> Yeah.
>> And he would not act in a way that benefited me at his own expense. He would only act in a way that harmed me to his benefit. In other words, it was harmful for me that my father never took responsibility for what happened to me as a child.
Yeah, >> but he didn't like taking responsibility because it would make him feel bad.
So to his very grave, my father did what was best for him at my expense.
Yeah. Um that makes a lot of sense.
There was just no consideration. I've seen the dozens and dozens of emails. I hear you on that. Um yeah, it's me me. I I I am having a heart attack. I'm dying.
I can't I'm not going to live. I need this. Me come back, you know.
>> Sorry. He he tells you he's dying >> some he would occasionally he would occasionally say he thinks he's having a heart attack or something like in the early days of of the estrangement. Um yeah he he would um say that there were health issues and things and sometimes they were like super imminent. Um he had a heart attack in the past and he would say my chest is getting tight. I haven't heard from you in months now and my chest is getting tight. I think I'm having another heart attack. Um he did that for a while and >> so he basically accused you of killing him with your distance. you 100% did that multiple times uh shortly after the initial separation.
>> So I'll tell you something about in my view again just in amateur opinion [snorts] the personality disorders is just pure [ __ ] hedonism. That's all it is. It's just hedenism. My father was a hedenist even though he was an aesthetic in some areas because taking responsibility for what he caused in my life would make him feel bad. Avoiding those topics made him feel good.
>> So he just operated as it to me personality disorders they just operate on the pleasure pain principle. They do what feels good and they avoid what feels bad like the lower animals.
>> Mhm. And the reason why we have to have an observing ego that compares our actions to ideal standards is that is the only thing that can counteract hedonism.
>> Mhm.
>> I mean, if everybody just ate whatever they wanted and didn't exercise if they didn't feel like it, we'd all be, you know, fat and sick. Right.
>> Right. Fish eat until they until they die.
>> Right. That's right. So your father doesn't have any principle called honesty or empathy or curiosity or directness. He only has what levers do I push or pull to get what I [ __ ] want?
>> Yeah. I've often said that to my wife.
>> Yeah. So you're like a vending machine and he put his goddamn money in. And where's his bag of chips?
>> And he's going to thump it. He's going to rock it. He's going to reach and grope up. He's owed that bag of chips, man.
>> Yeah, for sure. That's uh that's how he feels, right?
>> And um >> so that's just hedonism, >> right?
>> You know, it's not too hard to get things from people. All you have to do is what?
>> Reciprocate. Intimacy is curiosity.
Explore their inner world. You know, add value. Add value succinctly add value.
>> Yeah, it's it's I've been in sales. I mean, I'm still [laughter] in sales.
call them selling philosophy. It's not that hard to get what you want from people. You say to someone, "Hey, what do you want?" And then you provide it >> and then they reciprocate.
>> Of course. Right. Right.
>> And so, sorry. Go ahead.
>> No, of course.
>> Did your father, what field did your father work in?
>> Wait for it. Sales.
>> There you go. Right. So your father, I actually kind of knew that even before you said it, which is easy to say after the fact, but I just remember thinking, geez, wouldn't it be ironic if this guy was in sales? So in sales, you have to ask your customer what your customer wants and then work to provide it.
>> So he knows all of this.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Was he like a low rent herb tar cheesy salesman or did he do fairly well?
>> Um, he did very well.
>> Okay. So he knows that it is important to ask what your customer wants or anyone and work to provide it, right?
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> So he doesn't want to do that. He's literally like a someone you you go to buy a car and the car salesman says, "If you don't if you don't buy a car from me today, I'm going to shoot my children's dog. If you don't buy a car from me today, I'm going to I'm having I'm having a heart attack, and it's on your conscience." Oh, I'm getting chest pains because you haven't bought the car. Oh, I had a heart attack just two years ago.
Oh, you got to buy the car. Like, that's psycho, >> right? Well, that's the type of car you're looking for. What brings you here?
>> Yeah. Like, you know, let's see if we can find something that's going to going to work for you.
>> Yes. Um, that's right.
>> So, I mean, he really doesn't have any excuse at all.
>> Yeah. It's just harassment and and and spend.
>> Well, just you ask. And you know, I got to tell you, I mean, you're a dad. I'm a dad. I'm a little further down the road, but you've got two. I only had one, so let's just say it kind of evens out. I mean, how attached are your kids to you?
>> Like a barnacle.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like a limpet mind, right? Yeah. It's it's like trying to get free of of I don't know, a teenage boy if you're a girl or some sort of squid or a tentacle or something like that, right? So your kids like do do you realize how much you have to screw up to alienate your children? They're so attached. It's crazy.
>> Right. Right. And the fact that I've been so cold I felt this way for so long. And I've often thought that like wow like how I mean just not missing him at all. Like just completely walled off dead like nothing. And you're right.
Couldn't imagine that with uh with my kids. I mean they're like the most delightful quicksand imaginable.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's an old movie, uh, Brewster's Millions, I think it is, where a guy, in order to get a hund00 million, he has to spend, I don't know, $10 million overnight or something like that, right?
>> And it turns out to be a really hard job. It's really hard to burn through $10 million in one night.
>> Couldn't you just short crude oil?
>> Yeah, these days, right? But, well, you have to do it in a way that the average Hollywood audience would understand. So, it has to be material objects, right? Uh so my point is it's like for parents it it's you are born with such an excess of goodwill as a father your children are born so attached to you so dependent upon you so like jumping up and down daddy daddy daddy when you come home right so thrilled to see you like you really have to work hard to [ __ ] that up.
>> Yeah.
>> It's one of the most if not the most powerful attachments in the world.
>> Right. And uh when my parents separated when I was five, um I've often heard you say what keeps a man married, not the only thing, but one of the main things, you know, postmenopause, you know, getting older, it's the bond with the uh with the child that makes you want to stay for the child's benefit amongst many other things and your wife's virtues of course. Um but there how could there have been any real bond with me if uh uh he left when I was five?
>> Well, but the bond that you had with him is like you know there's weak and strong atomic forces.
>> It's the strongest thing that the bond that children have with their parents regardless of whether the parents have a bond with the children. And in fact, if the parents don't have a bond with children, sometimes the child bond goes even stronger.
>> Mhm.
>> Because they have to kind of make up for that. So, you know, it's hard to burn through that much goodwill as a parent.
I mean, we should never take it for granted, but children will always be happy and eager to forgive their parents. I mean, it's baked into our DNA, >> right? For a for a a teenager or young adult to say, "I don't miss you. I I never want to pick up when I see your your face on my phone.
>> I mean, you know, >> no, >> it's it's crazy. I mean, you've you've gone through this. I I went through it as a a pioneer in this area, [snorts] which is going no contact with your parents is considered what by most of society?
>> Anathema, blasphemy.
>> Horrendous. It's considered horrendous.
And if you go no contact with abusive parents, who does society believe automatically is at fault?
>> Me, us, the kid.
>> No, no, no. You've got to be intolerant.
You've got to learn how to forgive.
>> You must have joined that crazy online internet cult. You know, whatever it is, right?
>> You're too sensitive.
>> You're too sensitive. You know, you have to understand they did the best they could with the knowledge they had.
You've got to learn how to be more kind and more forgiving. and they came from a different era and you shouldn't be too judgmental and boom boom boom right it's just boom boom fists into the solar plexus buckle the [ __ ] down and go back to your parents now nobody says that [ __ ] to women who leave their husbands >> even if their children involved >> did your did your mother get ostracized when your parents split up >> no she was she was >> no everyone comes together oh yes he was terrible dear oh I'm so glad you're out you did the right thing for you did the right thing for the children you've got got to stand up for yourself. You've got to be strong. You can't just be some like they just cheer everyone on. Even though your parents chose each other, we never chose our parents. Right.
>> Right.
>> So, >> yeah, it's a great it's a great way to frame it really. Well, so what that means is that to go no contact with abusive parents or in in this case you had a combination it sounds like of abuse and neglect because people who are that selfish and hedonistic like you can't be a hedonist and have empathy because empathy is that which teaches you to sacrifice your own particular immediate pleasures for the sake of some larger good.
And people who are hedonists, who are narcissists, who are selfish, they can't have empathy because empathy interferes with their hedenism. They might have performative empathy like this virtue signaling or whatever, but they won't have genuine empathy. So you were also neglected because your ch your your parents it sounds like and correct me if I'm wrong of course but it sounds like your parents did not have any meaningful curiosity about who you were as a person and what made you tick and what you liked and what you didn't like.
>> Yeah. I mean my my mom did but not my dad.
>> Your mom did?
>> I mean yeah she was incredibly abusive too but you know it was it was a roller coaster. Yeah. I mean, >> okay, listen. I'm I'm always happy to be surprised in conversations. So, your mother, who was incredibly abusive, was also very kind.
>> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just I'm a bit surprised, but I'm always happy to be instructed and learn new things that I wouldn't expect.
>> If you zoom out, no. Um, were there There were a lot of moments in my childhood for sure that, you know, we would have great conversation and enjoy things or go to movies, have deep conversations. We were into classical music way way deep into that. Go to concerts.
I was practicing music. She was very into it with me. Um, uh, but yeah, it was also tons of horrible moments too.
So, uh, >> so hang on. Is it my understanding, and I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to understand your perspective. Is it my understanding that sometimes your mother had genuine empathy and sometimes she was cruel and sadistic?
>> Right. I see what you're saying.
>> No, again, I'm not I'm not trying to mock you or anything like that. I I just really want to understand, >> you know, how could it be genuine if it was a roller coaster like that?
>> Well, I mean, my mother, we'd have great conversations. We would do the crossword together. She helped me with my books and uh she helped me prepare for my audition for uh theater school. So, I mean, I I don't view that as her veering from kindness to cruelty. I view that when she was in a good mood and wanted to do something, she would do it.
>> And but but if she was in a bad mood or angry, you were in danger. It was just moodiness up and down, not any genuine empathy. Because if you have genuine empathy, then the other person's thoughts and feelings are always on your mind. It's not like sort of sort of, right?
For sure. For sure.
>> My wife like 24/7 she's like, "Is he hungry? Does he need soap?" Well, no.
She knows that I need soap. Um, does he need a nap? Do I need to put him on a sofa for a little while with some headphones?
>> Does he need yet another microphone? Uh, does he need another computer? I mean, Lord knows we only have a computer shop's worth. I'm sure there's more computers that uh he needs. Uh, so it's constant. It's obviously fear-based for the most part. Um, but no, I mean, she, my wife says that like she thinks about the people in her life like all the time. And I do too. I mean, I think about, you know, what would make my friends happier, my daughter happier, my wife happier. And it's not eclipse like where I then want to scream at them.
>> It doesn't come and go like that.
>> It's like saying like like Stalin could be great fun. He was actually a very good singer, a fine tenor, and he liked singing with people. He could be a lot of fun.
>> Mhm.
>> Serial killers have their charms as well. They could be very convivial.
I'm obviously not saying your mother is Stalin or a serial killer. Uh but but what I'm saying is that I I don't think it's like there's a nice side to someone and there's an evil side to someone, >> right? I I definitely >> like a con man will be really charming and convincing and show great interest in your hobbies and compliment your wife and you know hey I'd love to read your short story and like but he's doing that why >> to get what he wants.
>> Yeah. To rob you.
>> Yeah. Right. So yeah and it was like Jackal and Hyde um in my teenage years for sure. Like that's when my when they got properly divorced. It was just Jackal and Hyde. You never knew what you were getting.
>> Sorry. Five to your teenage years. They separated at five and got divorced in your teens.
>> Um, yeah. So, they separated when I was five. Back they got back together when I was uh nine, but only lasted two.
>> Yeah. And then, um, they got divorced for good. Um, so when the divorce actually happened when I was, let's say, 12. Um, that's really when it escalated.
Um, and so yeah, it was kind of like Juckle and Hide not knowing, you know, which version you would get that day.
>> Well, but it's the same person.
>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.
>> It just depends. And that's a hedenist.
So a hedenist says, "I'm in a good mood, I'll be fun. I'm in a bad mood, I'll be a terrorist." Like they just indulge their moods. They don't have a standard of good behavior. They don't have empathy. Yeah.
>> To moderate their mood swings.
>> It was like adult tantrums really. Um that just got so out of hand.
>> Yeah. You see a kid, they have a tantrum, you give them the candy, and then they're fine, right? It's not real.
It's not a real emotion. It's just a manipulation.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. That's very valuable.
>> So your parents are every day, especially if your father has these sales skills, right? Then your parents are every day choosing and your father is seeing a therapist and I'm sure that the therapist is trying to give him some emotional tools.
>> Mhm. [gasps] And so with his sales knowledge and his knowledge of therapy, he could simply say, "I've been going about this all wrong. I'm so sorry I've messed this up.
I'm realizing that I was not good as a father for you. [gasps] And I chose the wrong mother for my children. And it is with all humility and humbleness that I just want to listen to your experience of me as a father and your mother as a mother and what it's been like for you. I see you doing a much better job than I ever did and I've got to be humble about that.
Something like that. I don't know what it would be, right?
>> Yeah. Well, Haley's comment will come sooner.
Well, so what I'm saying is that he's got a coach now and he's got all these sales skills. So he knows that you have to ask the customer what the customer wants to try to provide it. So the reason why you're sentimental is you think that the abuse, the neglect, the negativity was all in the past. It's every moment of every day, my friend. It continues now. Whenever I would get sentimental about my father, what I would say is this. Every day, every minute, every hour, he is choosing not to contact me. He is choosing not to ask me how I'm doing. He is choosing to continue to put this burden of my childhood on me.
My father not contacting me cost me tens of thousands of dollars in therapy. It had me stuck in bad relationships or not great relationships through my 20s. It meant I had to do all the [ __ ] work myself.
>> Mhm.
>> And it continued.
He could have given me great relief from childhood anytime. anytime over the past I don't know what was I 57 or 56 when he died.
So you know bro had more than half a [ __ ] century to lift this burden from my shoulders and every day he chose not to.
>> That's true. And he knows it's a burden.
I mean >> yeah I've said it a million times before I went no contact. Y >> and he just I mean it's so and that's why I say talk to your parents so they don't have an excuse. Sorry. Go ahead.
Yeah. No. And how easy is it to go to someone and say like, "How do I how do I remedy this?" Or go to a professional, go to a friend who's, you know, someone you know who's got who seems to have it together. Like what do I do? Like my son like will talk to me. Um he Yes. He's going to therapy. And he keeps saying, "Just call me. Just can we just sit down, man? Can we just talk about it?
Can we just sit down?" And >> that's his needs.
>> When has he referenced what you need?
>> That Well, that's right. And that's why, you know, I I I recognize the content of every email for the past two and a half years is all the same except with various various degrees of of gaslighting and manipulation, >> right?
>> Um, >> so let me ask you this. Sorry to interrupt.
>> No, you know what? Let me not interrupt.
You go ahead. Sorry. [snorts] >> Um, >> various degrees of gaslighting and manipulation you were saying.
>> Yeah. So, so I recognize that the content of every message is the same.
So, I think, well, the content is always the same. I don't know what this therapist is doing, but the content is still the same. And so why do I want to reach out? Why do I want to have that man-to-man talk finally? Like the content has not changed. So that's why I'm not doing it.
>> And why has the content not changed although it is not working?
>> Uh because of the hedonism you described.
>> Break it out a bit more if you don't mind.
because there is something that he wants and he's pulling any lever that he thinks will work to get it and content.
>> No, he's not.
>> He's doing the same thing over and over.
>> Right. Right. So, the real answer is um why has the content not changed? It's because um he can't he can't face the truth. He can't face the fact uh he can't face how he neglected me. He can't face how he wasn't a father at all. He can't face um that all of his prior conceptions were lies that he told himself, >> right? [snorts] Yeah. I mean, my father wrote me a letter every week for years and years and years and years and years and years and years.
Now, he had he had atrocious handwriting and none of the contents were of any interest to me.
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> I had to really like sometimes I have to hold it sideways up against the light to try and puzzle out what the hell he was saying.
>> So he didn't ask me what I wanted to talk about. He didn't ask me what would be the most interesting thing for me. He didn't ask me. He would just tell me I went here. I did this. I met these people. I went on this trip and and so and so is doing well. Like in just stuff like that, right?
>> Yep.
>> So, uh it had nothing to do with me.
That's what I always tell my wife like this is not none of these are about me.
>> You you don't show up. So why is he doing what he's doing? Is it because he wants to be in contact with you? No. Because he's not asking you what you need or want or asking his therapist what do you think he needs or wants or if he knows you listen to what I do listening to some of these shows or whatever it is, right? And saying, "Oh, okay. So this is kind of what's needed or this is what's what would help or whatever it is, right?
So, why is he emailing you? Why does he keep emailing you with the same strategy that just doesn't work?
>> Oh, okay. I was going to say cuz he's lonely. But that's not answering his >> No, because if it was lonely, then he'd say, "Gee, what's what's the best way to get him to call me back?" Is to >> No, I was going to say that, but I I now see that's not the answer. on that. It's that he want he's he wants me to crack he's trying to crack me >> and break me.
>> He's angry.
>> Well, he's angry. So, think no, hang on.
So, think of a stalker, right? Some woman goes out on a date with a guy. She finds him really creepy and she doesn't want to go out with him again. And then he stalks her. Why does he stalk her?
Cuz he's angry.
[clears throat] Your father knows you because he grew up with you. You grew up with him. He knows that this is disconcerting to you. He knows that this is upsetting to you. You upset him, he upsets you back. You make him angry, he's going to mess you mess with your head.
>> Yeah, I hear you. And the tone the tone of the It's like maybe you can go deeper into that because the tone is never like like how dare it's never like an angry tone. I'm not saying you're wrong. Uh it's never an angry tone. It's always would you please you said go to therapy.
I'm going to therapy. I'm doing Come on.
Can we please talk? I miss you. I want to see my grandkids. It's It's never an angry tone, but you're saying that.
>> No, no, but that's what would mess you up the most >> because if he was saying you you have an [ __ ] for a son. How dare you? That would be easier for He's doing that which is most difficult for you because he's a smart guy who knows what makes you tick, >> right? He's playing heartstrings >> because it's working. You're calling me.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say this, I'm glad you're calling me. This is, I think, useful and helpful to talk about. But >> he's he's in your head, right? Yeah.
If somebody paid you a million dollars to figure out how not to get emails from your dad, would you have been able to do it?
>> Yes, >> of course. Of course you would have.
>> Yeah, I would change my email.
>> No, [laughter] no, no. And keep your email.
>> Um, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
>> I mean, honestly, it took me 10 seconds and you're easily smart enough to to figure all that stuff out. So, so you're you're locked in you're locked in a bit of a death spiral with your dad and you don't want >> the letters to stop coming and he doesn't want you >> to block him permanently.
>> Right. And I do check the I do catch myself. I do often check it. I do check it um uh to see if you email.
>> Yep. So, you're looking for his emails, which is why you haven't blocked him.
And that's not a criticism. So, why do you want his emails to come >> at some level?
>> Wow. I mean, that's an amazing question.
Um, surface level, I couldn't, but I mean, deep down, it's got to be because I'm waiting for him to actually care about me.
>> Aren't you checking because you think there's a possibility of change?
>> It's the only thing that makes sense because I mean, logically, I don't like logically I know it's not going to happen, but like if you analyze my behavior, >> Yeah. you're waiting for the harm to regrow.
>> Yeah. It's the only thing that makes sense, >> right?
And maybe you were getting close to doing a real block and he sensed that and then went to therapy and is telling you that he's gone to therapy and Right.
So that now it's like he's dangling some carrot that you just keep snapping at.
Right.
>> Yeah. It's I'm having a heart attack then it's your grandma's dying and then it's in therapy. Um you know it's whack-a-ole. He is exerting every piece of pressure, positive and negative. The negative being, I'm dying. Your grandmother died.
The positive being and also you'll be cursed with with regret if you don't do what he says. And the positive is I'm going to therapy. I'm dangling. Right.
So, he is exerting every piece of pressure on you.
>> But he only has power over you if you have hope.
>> Yeah. This made me realize that the hope uh is deep down enough there's uh still there.
>> Well, and I would argue that you don't actually have hope. He just needs you to have hope and you comply because he's your father.
>> Yeah, that's another angle.
>> You're again very intelligent and you've been listening to me for a while and you've done a whole bunch of other selfwork and so on. And your father, as you pointed out earlier, your father has never had a self genuinely self-critical moment in his life. So you don't [snorts] think just in your own brain, you don't think that there's hope that that he's going to change. But when you were growing up with him, you needed to have the fantasy called hope.
>> Yeah.
>> Because without that fantasy called hope, what's your life like?
>> Mhm. I mean, you'd probably be suicidal if you were, you know, 5 7 9 10 12 and you had years and years and years to go and you were in a sort of asylum of cruelty.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you got to have hope. And your father needs you to have hope.
>> Mhm.
>> Because does he uh is he asking for read receipts?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> I don't think so. I don't know.
>> I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if if you can find out if people have opened your email. I know you can, but newsletters, but I think people have to click on stuff or whatever.
>> But he emails like nine of my old email addresses and and like he's emailing like a thousand emails like to like to get to me like not just my main email.
He's like finding old ones and hitting those. [snorts] >> And have you told anyone who might be in contact with him about these emails?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, so he knows you're reading them.
>> He I guess he must. Yeah, sorry. I I don't mean to startle you, but it seems like if you've told his aunt or whatever or his sister or brother or someone, then >> No, it's just it's a friend. I mean, it's it's um Have I told anyone um >> who he could get it out of?
>> Yeah. Yes.
>> Okay. So, he most likely knows that you're reading his emails.
>> Yeah. Even if he only sees that person once a year randomly, like Yeah. The conversation would probably go that way.
Yes. Well, if he's reaching out to you, he could be reaching out to anyone.
>> Yeah.
>> So, who knows, right? Yeah. So, odds are that he, in my view, we don't know, right? But odds are that he's reading your emails and >> I didn't consider that, >> right? So, so you're in a toxic loop.
>> Feels like it.
>> Yeah. And in my view, I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you in my situation, the big thing was there there's no arms. They're not going to regrow. Waiting for a hug for a [clears throat] guy with no arms is the fool's quest.
>> Yeah.
>> And this level of aggression and acting out is still going on. Isn't I mean, it sounds like since this is what you're calling me about, it sounds like this is probably the most upsetting thing that's happening in your life right now.
>> Yeah.
>> And you got to put a stop to it, man.
You know why?
>> It's >> Yeah. This is bad for your kids. Does it cost you sleep?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I don't doubt it.
>> I don't doubt it. And does it cost you concentration, spontaneity, joy, connection with your kids?
>> It it must.
>> It has to.
>> It must.
>> Even if all it's doing is robbing you of some sleep, that means you're less alert for your kids.
>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And even if it's only the email comes in and I see them in the car and I'm driving home like I I don't want to lose any moment with my kids. I want to be connected and present all the time. They're only young once.
I'm I'm all in. So, why do you want the emails?
Why do you need >> Right. Um >> cuz you're like, "Good God, I'm going to a lawyer. How can I legally prevent him?" It's like, "You're opening them."
[gasps] >> Yeah. Makes >> You're not finding a way to get them never to come to your computer, >> right? Why am I doing I mean, I think the last thing is there's there's still some remnants. I'm a man of action and everything you said made sense and and this is this is great but I I think the reason would be I think there's still some remnants of guilt in uh finally closing the loop.
>> Okay. So the question is why are you in limbo for years? Cuz if you feel guilt you could have picked up the phone and talked to him and see how that conversation went. The question is the limbo. Do you know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> You're not free. You're not in. You're in limbo.
>> Yeah. Why would I want to be in limbo?
>> Yeah. If if you think that there's hope, then why not call them up? And if you think there's no hope, why not block the emails fully?
>> Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more.
>> So, what's the secondary gains of limbo for you? What is the benefit? How does it what does it do for you?
>> [clears throat] >> Maybe I'd love to know your answer. Maybe maybe I can can avoid the backlash from my family like when they know like it's like final final.
>> No, because you could do that just by deleting his emails or preventing them from coming from the server.
I mean, bro has been your your father has been sending you emails that he's going to die if you don't call him.
That's seriously abusive.
>> I mean I mean come on. If there was some woman who's like, "Oh, I have to go see my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend, because he said he's going to kill himself if I don't go over." Would you think that's abusive of him?
>> Beyond. Yes, absolutely. [gasps] And what am I standing to gain from being in limbo? I >> So, so if it if it's to do with not wanting to provoke the family, you could have never read his emails and it still wouldn't be provoking the family.
>> Mhm.
>> So, it's not that.
>> What are you thinking?
>> I don't know. What else you got?
>> How do I benefit from being in limbo?
Um, >> how do you benefit from neither talking to your father nor breaking communication decisively?
>> Maybe it provides some sort of hedge for my own behavior.
>> What do you mean?
>> No, I'm just I'm really just brainstorming. I don't know.
>> No, no, no. I actually I'm not saying I'm still don't know what you mean. some hedge for your own behavior >> like like I don't know I'm not saying this is the case but maybe if I you know if I if if if I'm a bad person I do something bad people can cut me can really cut me off forever >> and truly internalizing that um although I don't think that's what it is just thinking with you >> okay well are you doing bad things that you're concerned that people will cut you off for >> no >> okay so it's not that >> um uh [sighs] it it feels like a toxic loop like you said. I don't um maybe it's um somehow making myself feel better although I say I hate it. Feel disgust and anger. Some part of it obviously probably is shielding me from some emotion.
>> Yeah, there's there's another possibility. I put it forward only as a possibility. Uh which is reverse sadism and torment >> as in massochism or >> no. Uh it means that you enjoy seeing your father suffering, >> right? I actually was going to say that.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That I'm tormenting him back.
>> Well, you're not tormenting him directly, but you're enjoying seeing the fruits of your torment, which is him having heart palpitations and all this other [ __ ] Oh, well, >> you like to see him beg. You like to see him squirm. You like to see him reaching for you. You like to see him, uh, I'm going to die and I'm so upset and I can't sleep. Like, you enjoy seeing the the harm that your exit has done because of your anger.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm I'm not judging it. I'm just saying what it might be.
>> Yeah. There there's something to that for sure.
>> Yeah. It's like it's it's a it's almost like um like payback, >> right?
>> And if he somehow finds that like I am open emails, I know that he'll continue and like it keeps us in the cat and mouse game. Um Right.
>> Right. And you get I mean your father did quite a bit of damage to you, right?
>> Yeah.
>> And he failed to protect you. Ah. Right.
Okay. He failed to protect you from your mother and so now >> you refuse to protect him from himself.
>> Exactly.
>> There you go. Yeah. I think that's it.
>> That hits very deep.
Wow. Yes. Strikes a a deep cord.
>> And listen, I mean, >> I I am I'm the last guy who tells Tim good to tell you that's bad. I I am I don't think about my enemies too often, but I will almost never miss an opportunity to throw a jab in.
Yeah, >> almost never. And so in general, life will punish those who do you wrong. And the less they feel that punishment, the worse that punishment is.
>> Yeah.
>> And so your father's suffering is going to occur. You don't need to see it.
It is an awful thing that he's going through and he deserves every moment of it. If somebody treated one of your children the way your parents treated you, even just for a weekend, what would you feel?
>> Blinding rage, >> right?
Why would your children be more deserving of protection than you as a child? Why should someone be more outraged at your children being harmed for a weekend than you for 40 years?
>> No reason at all. And it's it's uh frustrating. It's still somewhat hard to to connect [snorts] with those emotions.
I mean, yeah, some are back, but to connect with it as deeply as imagine in your scenario, >> right? It is hard. It is hard to imagine. If somebody beat my daughter's head against the metal door to the point where she half passed out when she was three, I would have killed that person and or wanted to. And so why would I want to spend time with my mother?
And does my mother suffer? Did my father suffer? Yeah. Yeah, they did. And maybe there are people out there in the world who can help them. It ain't me. You know, if if some guy rapes a woman, maybe he can be helped by some mental health professional in some way I could never understand. But we wouldn't ask his victim to help him. Right.
>> Right. I accept that.
>> So yeah, your parents are suffering.
That's why we don't do evil. That's why we don't abuse children.
>> That's why we're not hedonists.
>> Because hedonists get a lot of pleasure in the moment and a lot of suffering down the road. That's why hedonism is impractical if you live much beyond the age of 20.
>> Right? And there's no reason to remain in this toxic loop to exact punishment on them because the punishment is here and coming.
>> Right? And here's the thing. You know the old saying that if you want to embark on a journey of vengeance, dig two graves first. Because you're suffering because of your desire to see him suffer cuz it upsets you. It costs you sleep and peace of mind.
>> Yes.
>> To walk away and live a great life and not to to let go of the need for a vengeance you will not act on because there's nothing to act on, right? You can't even block emails from the guy, right? You're not going to go beat him up or anything like that, right? So, if for me, it's like if I'm not going to act on vengeance, then I try to put it out of my mind. I don't engage. I don't follow. I don't write. I don't read whatever. Right.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, the woman who banned I didn't say she banned me, but she oversaw YouTube when I got banned, which cost me like 15 years of my life's work. I completely forgot about her and didn't really think about her at all until a her son died of a drug overdose and then she died.
>> I remember that.
>> And so with your father, he is suffering.
There's nothing you can do about it. You cannot do it any more than you can suck someone's smoke damage out of their lungs if they've been a smoker for 40 years.
>> Yeah.
>> You cannot help your father.
Even if you were to walk in and forgive him, that would not end his suffering.
In fact, it would be one of the most cruel things you could do because it would drive his suffering all completely underground >> and he would be unable to even have the chance to confront it or feel it or deal with it.
>> And so, he is desperate for your forgiveness because he thinks that will ease his suffering. He's desperate for you to be back in contact with him because he believes it will ease his suffering. He's grabbing at you like uh a drunk grabs at a drink, >> right?
>> Exactly. Yes.
>> And so, but but the last thing you should do is give the drunk a drink.
He's going to have to just dry out, right? He's going to have to go through the DTS. He's just going to have to dry out.
>> And so, you cannot help him. Maybe the therapist will, I don't know, but you can't. And you have to look away because seeing him convulsing in spiritual agony >> every time an email comes in and he's begging and pleading and threatening and I'm dying and this like seeing him twist and turn and shudder on the ground from an addiction that you did not cause and cannot cure is a kind of massochism.
>> Yeah.
>> And cruelty. And I I I these are not moral judgments. I'm not saying you're a cruel person or anything like that.
>> I get it.
>> But it's just accepting that you cannot regrow his arm.
You cannot make him whole and you cannot undo the damage of 70 years or 50 let's say since he was an adult of of 50 years, right? Early 20s to early '7s. 50 years of cruelty you cannot undo any more than you can make him 20 again. and send him on a better path. It is all accumulated. It is irrevocable. It cannot be undone. It cannot be fixed.
There is no redemption. Are you a religious man?
>> Yes, Christian.
>> Right. So, of course, I I I'll say this with all due deference to the Christian aspects of your belief system, but there are many souls the devil will not give back.
>> Mhm. And particularly the and this is self Jesus, right? And what you do to the least among you, so do you also do to me. So if your father and mother tormented children for years and refuse to admit fault, refuse to repent, refuse to take responsibility and continue to bully and threaten, you cannot dislodge the demons from their hearts. You cannot dislodge the demons that have displaced their hearts. You cannot make their conscience whole without redemption. and they will not redeem themselves and there's no reason to believe they ever will redeem themselves. There are venal sins. There are mortal sins. There are sins which you can turn back from. There are sins you cannot turn back from. And the decisions that they made to embrace the devil in the way were made long before you came along. And you cannot dislodge that devil. He owns them completely.
They have sold their souls. The bill is due and there's no escape.
You can't undo that signature that was done 50 years ago. Nobody can. That's why you don't do that signature. You are. It's like you're watching a movie and hoping that the ending is going to be different if you watch it again.
>> Yeah, that's how it feels.
>> So, that would be my suggestion.
>> I really appreciate that. Um, thank you so much for listening.
>> You're very welcome. And I'm sorry again about this wretched uh family. I'm I'm really sorry. And uh if there's anything else I can do um please uh let me know.
And also I just wanted to express my sincere honorable and deep admiration for what you've made of your life given where you started from no matter what.
But I mean, you were definitely a a bone that a bone that got cracked that the arm became truly mighty. And I hugely respect you for what you've done with your life and your commitment to your family and and your children is a beautiful thing to see and magnificent.
>> Right back at you and it means the world coming from you.
>> All right. Thanks, brother. Take care.
>> Thank you, Steph. Take care. Bye-bye.
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