Gender ABOLITION vs. Gender ANARCHY!!!

[00:00:00]I'm more of a gender anarchist is what I would say rather than a gender abolitionist because I think gender anarchy opens us up to yeah play with gender. Do whatever you want. Dress however you want. Get whatever surgeries you want and just kind of roll with it and take the good and leave the bad. Hi, I'm Luxander Moss and I'm a co-host on the line here on YouTube. We have call-in shows just about every day covering topics like religion, trans rights, and feminism from a secular humanist perspective. I thought you would enjoy this call. So, let's roll the clip.

[00:00:30]>> Stephen, he him from Ohio is a gender abolitionist. Um, you are live with Lux and Josie um here on the line. Uh, so what do you want to talk about?

[00:00:44]>> Uh, yeah. Hi. Um, I just want to go ahead and open up this conversation by saying that first off, I believe that trans people are completely valid. Uh I understand this separation between sex and gender as one is a uh biological thing and the other is a social construct and that is actually kind of what informs the uh basis of my position and to sort of get the get this started.

[00:01:10]I have trans friends and um gender identity is sort of a foundational aspect of being trans and that stands at odds with my um philosophy that gender is a sort of outdated social construct that is ultimately at this point in time doing more harm than good.

[00:01:33]there there's sort of a um a uh contradiction there with the fact that I I love my trans friends and it it seems like the two are incompatible. So I'm wondering if I'm approaching my own personal philosophy wrong and I just wanted to hear from some professionals on the issue.

[00:01:57]>> Sure.

[00:01:57]>> Yeah.

[00:01:58]>> Of their identity as a woman and how they understand themselves. Um, you know, and like I said on a call earlier, like if a woman finds out she can't give birth, uh, then, you know, that is sometimes like a big identity shift that they have to go through. Um, so yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just kind of generally of the opinion I'm more of a gender anarchist is what I would say rather than a gender abolitionist because I think gender anarchy opens us up to Yeah. play with gender, do whatever you want, dress however you want, get whatever surgeries you want, and just kind of roll with it and take the good and leave the bad.

[00:02:32]>> Yeah, that that's actually kind of how I feel. I should very much specify that I'm not looking to take anything away from anyone. I I'm saying that the walls between the two are uh the social construct that no longer needs to exist.

[00:02:51]>> Yeah.

[00:02:52]>> I mean I mean I you know it's funny because my opinion since we've had so many conversations with agender people has actually shifted a little bit on this. It's actually pretty interesting.

[00:03:02]Um I I I I'll say where I've started and now where I'm going on on this. Um, it's still a journey, so I don't know if I'm there yet. So, where I started was gender abolition is a utopian point of view of human humanity where like nobody cares about anybody's gender um or nobody has a gender so people can just live the way that they want to live.

[00:03:28]But as I'm having more conversations with agender people who don't have a sense of gender versus people who have very strong senses of gender, is it possible to remove everybody's gender identity from everybody's psyche?

[00:03:45]>> And and so now I'm now at a point and now I'm at a point in my journey on this topic. Is gender abolition the goal of people who are agender and a a world of like most everybody becomes agender therefore nobody cares about gender and what does that do about what you were saying Stephen about the people who have a very strong sense of gender because I can't picture a I cannot picture a gender abolitionist world I can't I don't know how because of my gender is so intrinsically linked to the identity is so intrinsically linked to who I am and a lot of people that I know where it's like I don't even know what the if and and this comes about with the philosophical point of view because gender abolition is a phil philosophical concept in my opinion if I was to wave a magic wand tomorrow and we have a a gender abolitionist world >> would anything actually page.

[00:04:51]And and and it's a really really weird like concept because without removing the the um wi without changing mindset in that magic wand, can we actually get there? So So I don't know. I I'm still on this journey of what gender abolition actually posits as the goal with >> um it's it's a for me um this idea of gender abolitionism is we sort of we take a journey back through human history uh civilization gender is a social construct. what man and woman has meant throughout history changes wildly depending on the culture, depending on the time period, depending on everything. So, we can nail down that uh gender man and woman. Um while there that dichotomy has existed, it's not always such a a clear dichotomy because there are cultures that have a third gender. Uh and while it is usually socially linked to your your biological sex often from from what we can >> but it's still an identity >> in my opinion >> that's still an identity though even that third gender in that in the context you're speaking is still a gender identity.

[00:06:20]>> So so the abolition the abolition of gender means that nobody has an identity correct of gender. Um, I I I think it's more I don't think it's that nobody has an identity. It's that we have essentially billions of identities.

[00:06:40]>> I mean, that's everybody has their own.

[00:06:42]>> That's that's kind of already what we do. Yeah, that's kind First of all, that's kind of already what we do. Every person defines the gender as the way that they understand it. Like, even if you look at three or four different cis women, they probably all conceive of womanhood a little bit differently from each other. And also, as Josie was saying, I that's like more like anarchy than abolition, >> right? Um I I was I I was driving towards a point though I interrupted, but basically what I what I've been saying is >> throughout history we we can see that it's um basically informed a hierarchy um where one one gender does this and the other gender does that. And it it's not it's not always just um limited to uh self-actualization.

[00:07:31]There are societal expectations and demands placed on you based on man or woman that um you know some people are happy with them and some people are not. Like in in very recent history, we we have uh the idea of the traditional household where you have the man who's the bread winner.

[00:07:56]He's the the stoic person who never shows emotion and slaves away at his workplace making his boss money. And then you have the the housewife who uh has extremely limited autonomy and her role is to stay in the house, raise the children, and be the homemaker. And this is a rather extreme example and possibly even a an oversimplification, but it's one example of the way that gender has sort of structured our society in ways that while it causes society to run, it doesn't produce happiness.

[00:08:35]>> Taking a short break from that call to let you know that you can watch the full episode linked in the description. And if you want to support me personally, first of all, you can hit like and subscribe, but also you can head to patreon.com/luxander for pictures of my cat and other secret stuff. And you can also head to shopluxander.net to get t-shirts and hoodies and tank tops and mugs of various sizes, etc. And if there's anything you want to see in the merch store, let me know in the comments down below. But it's about choice. Like this is feminism 101 stuff where it's like yeah for some person being a trad wife stay-at-home mom might be restrictive and if well if we force people to do that if we if we drive people to do that then that's >> bad obviously and that's restrictive and depressive but if people choose that lifestyle then that's a good thing. It's like people should be empowered to make those choices. It's like I just don't like I don't know if we're ever going to get to a point where we completely evolve away because every concept of gender that we have in the future is going to carry with it the centuries of baggage of gender that we've brought with us so far. So it's like I guess I don't know what the what the idea is of like if you're like I just want everybody to be able to do whatever they want. It's like okay that's also what I want. We're just calling it something.

[00:09:52]>> Somebody somebody said gender liberation. That sounds >> gender liberation. Sure. That sounds that sounds good. I mean the word abolition means something >> that is very different. What is your definition of of abolition then?

[00:10:05]>> Yeah. What what does abolishing something mean?

[00:10:09]>> Um abolishing means uh sort of doing away with it I guess. And >> yeah by by like force or consensus >> like not allowing people to do the thing anymore. like abolishing ICE means getting rid of it completely in all its forms and starting over from scratch. Um like that's what I hear when I'm when I hear people talk about gender abolition.

[00:10:34]Usually when people are talking about gender abolition they are biological essentialists who want to reduce all of gender down to your sex characteristics which is why I say gender anarchist. uh and I if if that is the case I if by uh using the term gender abolitionism I am uh sort of painting myself as a biological essentialist call change the terminology that I'm using because that is not at all where I am I I >> and I I know what you're saying Stephen >> but let's so so let's let's take it a step back right let's take it a step back because at the beginning you were talking about how gender abolition may affect your trans friends that have fought hard to be the gender that they are.

[00:11:25]>> That's why a lot of people take a gender abolitionist point of view to hurt trans people. That's the point. It's the function. It's the feature, not the not not the bug.

[00:11:36]>> Yes.

[00:11:37]>> Right. and and and and >> that that is why I wanted like a a professional's opinion on this because when I I got the idea that you know we should just not really have gender and everybody should just do whatever they want. I when I discussed this with the trans people that I know, it became rapidly apparent to me that um this sort that the male female gender uh dynamic is actually really important to them.

[00:12:08]And I'm like, well uh now now what?

[00:12:14]Maybe I'm wrong. So I wanted to get an expert opinion.

[00:12:17]>> So Stephen, I have a question for you. I have a question for you. Um, and and please know we're not trying to call you a bad person. I just want to I just want to posit that right now.

[00:12:28]>> Your your heart is in absolutely the right place and I love you for it. I love having this conversation because it is a change up from the conversations we've had all day on this show. Um, which is which is which is nice. Um, so so Stephen, do you have a sense of gender identity?

[00:12:46]>> I I I know I have pronouns listed. he him. Um, we live in a >> But that's not your gender. That's not your gender. Your pronouns are not your gender. Pronouns are more of a gender expression than they are an actual gender identity. I I know I I I do I suppose I do have a gender in if we're talking about the I in strictly in the terms of um how my um my lived experiences as this is actually a really hard question to answer. I >> Yeah.

[00:13:24]And that makes sense, right? Because if you are unsure if you have a very structured strong sense of gender identity, gender abolition makes sense, right? Because it's like, well, it doesn't really matter too much, so why would anybody need it >> if I can just like toss it off of my shoulder into the bin and it's fine.

[00:13:46]Like, then you're great. But like but at this point it's like is that more of a personal point of view of how you experience gender and see your own self inside of that versus the idea of gender liberation or gender anarchy which is like everybody's free to do whatever the hell they want.

[00:14:06]>> Yeah. In particular I think Stephen you mentioned that you don't like the hierarchy of gender and so I think that exploring >> and we hate that too.

[00:14:16]>> Yeah. exploring the idea of anarchy broadly um could be useful because it's like so anarchism isn't opposed to hierarchy full stop. It's opposed to unjustified hierarchies. So like I just don't think that there is a justified hierarchy in gender. Um >> so you know I I think it's like fair to say that like a gender anarchist position is like >> do whatever you want. If it's if it matters a lot to you to perform a gender role then do it. But we don't create a broader construct of power dynamics around the the topic.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:14:55]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:56]>> Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this conversation, Stephen. Like I I because you brought it up, it's kind of really it's kind of really um enlightened my own point of view a little bit myself because I really haven't thought about that in a while. I know. I used to think about that early on in my transition as well. Um, so so yeah, it's it's nice to revisit it now. And also my it's it's funny that uh because tomorrow is my six-year transversary/birthday.

[00:15:24]>> I know it's wild. Six years. Ah uh so so being able to look back philosophically on all of these things and how much I've developed my own sense of understanding around these topics has has evolved over time, too. because time is a beautiful thing. It actually allows or for my case, I need that to be true because I'm turning 40. Um, but uh so so I like time better be a beautiful thing because I got a lot of it now. Um, but it's it's it's it's I think it's a I think it's a really good thing to kind of like reassess where we land on these things.

[00:16:00]So, thank you, Stephen. You got anything else before we let you go?

[00:16:04]I just wanted to say uh both of you are lovely and this has been a wonderful and enlightening phone call and I'm I'm glad I made the call.

[00:16:13]>> Yeah, me too. Awesome. Well, have a great rest of your day.

[00:16:18]>> You too.

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