Christian Anarchy and Gender. How to Create a More Beautiful World | Mae Barnes | TNE Podcasts

Added: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]Hey, what's up, friends? Welcome back to the show. Today, we're kicking off Pride Month.

[00:00:06]It's going to be a great month. We have some great guests coming on, some of which some of which you might already know. Maybe you heard of their work, some you haven't. And I'm guessing you maybe have not heard yet of our of today's guest, Dr. [music] May Burns. She is someone doing amazing work. She's also a Christian anarchist, and she connects that to being trans.

[00:00:25]And this is a very thought-provoking conversation. I don't do a lot of talks on this podcast about, you know, [music] economics and like how we structure things, but I think that is a huge part of understanding Christian nationalism and giving people a better path forward by exposing them to different ways of organizing as a society. So, this is a great conversation. I think you're really going to like it. As always, friends, thank you so much for being here. If you want to get plugged into our community, make sure to check out TNE Connect. There are so many amazing things happening, especially during Pride Month. You can download it for free on the App Store or on the Google Play Store, or you can go to the new evangelicals.com/connect and access it right right from any web browser that you can get your hands on.

[00:01:06]So, definitely check it out. It's totally free, and I appreciate you being here. Talk to you later. Enjoy the episode.

[00:01:21]>> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> All right. Well, Dr. May Burns, I feel so honored because we're we're recording this the day before you graduate with your PhD. By the time this comes out, you'll have your PhD. So, I kind of feel like, you know, a special I I was the first person publicly to say that. But, welcome to the podcast. It's so good to have you. Um welcome in. Thanks for making time.

[00:01:58]>> It is a delight to be here. Thank you for having me on the show.

[00:02:01]>> Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, you're I when you first sent over an email, I was like, "Wow." Uh, you have a lot of a lot of things going on and you you do a lot of things. Give us a little snapshot.

[00:02:14]>> So, uh, I am graduating with my PhD in theology and ethics, uh, from the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, so out in far left California, uh, in the shadow of Silicon Valley.

[00:02:25]>> Yeah.

[00:02:27]>> And, uh, so my focus was in disability and the church. Um, but I had a whole life before that. Um, long before that, I was a pastor in the United Methodist Church. I, um, was, uh, in the process to be ordained and life took some turns and I decided, "You know what? I want to pursue my PhD while I have the time and while I have the the youthfulness to get it done."

[00:02:50]So, I did. And, uh, came out west and, uh, decided, you know, this is much more my speed. And so, here we are now. Um, and so if you if you must know, and in the process of sort of getting away from leadership in the church and more in time to do academia and things like that, I had a lot of time to do self-reflection and, uh, came out as trans. And so, all of that kind of happened within the span of the past 8 years. So, >> Wow. That's a lot of change.

[00:03:22]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:23]>> Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah.

[00:03:25][clears throat] You know, you mentioned that that you and I saw your Substack, you talk about anarchy a lot >> I do.

[00:03:31]>> to be honest, that is, you know, I think for even for me it's a little bit of a scary word. I mean, I I I think I have anti-authoritarian tendencies as someone who lives in New Jersey, is close to Philly, it's a very punk rock kind of city. And I, you know, I I was a punk rock kid, mohawk and everything. Talk to me a little bit about this idea of anarchy because we're going to kind of connect it to as you said earlier, you know, transness. Like how how do you introduce someone to the world of anarchy?

[00:03:59]>> Okay. So, the way I'll just talk about how I got into it, cuz I think a lot of people can resonate with it. Okay. Um I am a millennial as many of your listeners probably are.

[00:04:10]>> Yes.

[00:04:11]>> And so, I graduated with my bachelor's in 2008, in winter of 2008.

[00:04:18]So, as the economy was collapsing, I was graduating into the worst economy that we had seen since the Great Depression.

[00:04:25]>> Yeah.

[00:04:25]>> Um good times for all of us.

[00:04:28]>> Great [laughter] great times. So mhm, perfect timing.

[00:04:33]And from there, I continued to experience both within the church and within the business world a series of slamming doors.

[00:04:42]Um and people making decisions that did not make any sense. And the more you try to question and figure out why they were making those decisions, the more you understand that well, things have been this way for an awful long time.

[00:04:56]And we fool ourselves into believing into these structures of hierarchy that our world is built upon. And so, when I talk about anarchy >> Yeah.

[00:05:09]>> there is a big scary word that has been used since Thomas Hobbes way way way back in the backpack. And of course, people think anarchy means lawlessness. When that's not necessarily the case.

[00:05:21]>> Anarchy is basically um a philosophical strain in which hierarchy is questioned and primarily the use of coercive force upon people.

[00:05:33]So, in terms of the state, for example, um states only uh started existing in the way that we understand them since about the early 1900s.

[00:05:46]>> Mhm.

[00:05:47]>> Um and so >> Yeah.

[00:05:49]>> because of that, before that, there were I mean there was obviously kingdoms and fiefdoms and nations, but but but the point of it is that the way we understand the state as it is right now was not always the way it was.

[00:06:07]>> Right.

[00:06:07]>> And in fact there is a long tradition of people questioning Why does the king get to be king?

[00:06:17]Why does the lord get to be a lord? What gives him the right to be a lord? What gives him the right to have more money than everybody else in the village and in fact own everybody else in the village and charge them for rent on the land that they pour their blood, sweat, and tears into.

[00:06:36]And so you have this thought of anti-authoritarianism that is very very historical. Um and the way that we talk about it, so another thing that I do is is because I'm on a podcast that I started myself.

[00:06:50]Uh it's called an anarchidox. I do it with my friend Bill. Uh he and I are both academics. He actually studies anarchy a lot more than I do. Uh and I study it quite a bit. But he and I started it as well in a reaction to the regime. We started it in beginning of January 2025. Um which was a lot of fun and we've had a lot of fun doing it and we're really kicking our stride right now.

[00:07:17]>> Mhm.

[00:07:17]>> Um all of that is we we've kind of circled in on this one idea is that when it comes to anarchy, it's better to not have a program, but rather a stance.

[00:07:27]Okay, when we say that, we mean like a political platform. We want a government to look like X, Y, and Z.

[00:07:33]Mhm, not necessarily because there are many ways you can organize a society that doesn't reinforce unjust hierarchies, right?

[00:07:41]So what if your organization only has white men at the top of it, why is that the case?

[00:07:49]>> Oh, I know why. Because they're the most qualified, right? Is that why? Right?

[00:07:53]Right? Meritocracy. That's why Pete Hegseth is where he's at, right? He's the most qualified, obviously.

[00:08:00]>> Of course. And and we love our baby Pete. Um [laughter] baby Pete is just is just the best little boy. And so, >> [laughter] >> no, it is it is because the guys at the top said that they believed that they are worthy of it. When, in fact, more often than not, uh you get the best people through I'm going to say some really scary words, diversity, equity, inclusion.

[00:08:24]But, that's kind of on the side.

[00:08:26]I know, right?

[00:08:27]>> My audience is triggered. I know it, yeah.

[00:08:29]>> [laughter] >> Absolutely. Um take your take your take your Xanax. It's going to be okay.

[00:08:36]I promise. I promise. Let me walk you through this. So, the stance is, um observing society and questioning why there are hierarchies in place in which does not serve any other purpose but to keep one one group of people in a permanent underclass and one in a permanent overclass.

[00:08:58]Uh and so what I keep talking about with anarchy is another thing, and I steal this from David Graeber, is that a lot of people, in fact, you, dear listener, you, most likely operate in a kind of state of anarchy already.

[00:09:15]How often do you interact with the state? I Most often it is with a police officer at most, or you have to go into the DMV or something like that. That is about the most contact we have with the state as anything else. In all other parts of life, we operate in a largely egalitarian frame of mind um until it gets to the problem of money and capitalism. And so it people that that can be a a a later conversation, but >> Mhm.

[00:09:50]>> the point is we already in our neighborhoods, in our identity groups, in all forms of life, we tend to operate with the with a sense that everybody else is equal to us. And that is one of the gifts of the enlightenment. Unfortunately, they also believed in capitalism, which didn't work out so great. But the idea of freedom, equality, and liberty um are very very potent >> Yeah.

[00:10:20]>> radically changed society for the better. Um people all the way back when the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution were saying this is basically anarchy.

[00:10:32]>> [laughter] >> Because it was democracy. Democracy was a terrifying thing when people were floating democracy as a potential form of government because the way that they have always done it is there was a set of aristocrats who run everything, and everybody just does what the aristocrats does, and that is the holy and natural order of things. But it's not.

[00:10:52]>> Um Okay. Uh hold on. I'm processing in real time computing what you just told me, thinking about this. I'm I'm going to repeat it back to you and and see if I'm kind of catching it. So it Okay. I I I guess one of the questions I have though, and this is interesting, is so it's not about not having any kind of structure or even to a degree of hierarchy cuz you have to have some level of who would lead when and make certain decisions based on maybe the consensus, but still someone has to people have to at least agree on that thing. So are are are are all hierarchies inherently like not good, or is there a place for certain like ways for humans to form a hierarchy that might actually be beneficial to whatever it is that we're talking about? Because I would imagine it it it it it would have it would be context um you know um appropriate. So like in the government, how you form with anarchy might be different than like in in a small community in like my town, right? Versus like in in my own house, etc. How does that work with the hierarchy piece?

[00:11:56]>> Um so I you're hitting on a really important part and I uh Bakunin once said in term in matters of boots, I will defer to the bootmaker.

[00:12:05]The person who makes boots for a living has expertise in making boots. Right.

[00:12:10]Now, does that person have expertise in everything else? No.

[00:12:13]>> Right. Right.

[00:12:14]>> But they know how to make a good boot and so you would go to someone who knows how to do that with the skills that they have.

[00:12:20]You know, that makes sense. Um doctors, doctors are usually a pretty good one that I point to. Um and I'm not going to say that doctors are perfect 100% they're people, obviously. Malpractice is a thing. Uh but the point is if there is something wrong with your body, you go to a doctor because you trust that the doctor knows more about the human body than you do and can help you.

[00:12:43]Um but at the same time you are free to go to any doctor that you choose. I mean >> Yeah.

[00:12:48]>> in the absence >> [laughter] >> in theory. The American health care sensor system is a nightmare. But the point is if you don't like a doctor, you usually can find a way to go to a different doctor.

[00:12:59]>> Right.

[00:13:00]>> Um and so that is a is a kind of hierarchy but it is voluntary. It is voluntaristic.

[00:13:07]It is I have chosen to recognize your authority in this matter.

[00:13:14]>> Mhm.

[00:13:14]>> And in other matters, I will defer to other people's kinds of authority. But that doesn't mean that they have authority over everything. I'm not going to go to a medical doctor if I want to know how to build a nuclear power plant.

[00:13:28]I'm not going to go to >> a doctor if they have no experience in catching fish.

[00:13:36]>> Right.

[00:13:37]>> And I would go to a fisherman who has lots of experience in catching fish.

[00:13:41]>> Right.

[00:13:41]>> Um So, in there there there is a there is >> Hm.

[00:13:48]>> volun- volunteering your relationship is a key aspect of anarchy.

[00:13:56]Volunteering yourself with other people, voluntary free associations, what we called it.

[00:14:02]Um >> Yeah.

[00:14:04]Hm. So, >> Yeah. I I see you're still rubbing your chin.

[00:14:08]>> Well, this this is my thoughtfulness.

[00:14:10]You know, I'm trying to look real impressive and academic as a former home schooler who didn't actually go to college. You know, I'm trying I'm trying to keep up here. Um what about in government though? Okay, this is this is Audience, this is a selfish um a path that we're on. I'm curious now.

[00:14:25]Okay, so if you're not I'm sorry, but I got to do it. In government anarchy, how would that work? Cuz I do think about the notion if we strip down all the attached racism and patriarchy and all the all other bad stuff, the term law and order makes less sense to me, right? Like you have a society that has laws that we agree to and there's a sense of order and we and we structure our government in in such a way that is able to enforce these things that we agree upon because that keeps things order so it doesn't you know, devolve into chaos and people aren't doing all kinds of whatever we might think are bad things, right? So, I I can see why maybe a hierarchy in the government could actually be quite necessary. So, the the mass majority of people in in the current nation state are able to live their life without without the general fear of you know, it it's evolving at any given minute. So, in an anarchist framework, how would a government function?

[00:15:21]>> So, government then would be a matter of Let's put it this way. Every community is entitled to come up with a set of governing rules in order to keep their community safe and functional in a kind of way.

[00:15:36]>> Right.

[00:15:38]>> The bigger that community gets, the more difficult it becomes to actually do that, right? And so um a lot of times anarchists, like myself, will say focus first not on the national government because that is something that is very complex and takes a lot of effort and coordination to do.

[00:15:59]>> Right.

[00:16:01]>> Focus on the local. Get involved in your local city government get or any organization you're part of, your union, your workplace, your your church, um and get involved. Get involved in the leadership and and make it so that those organizations are forced to reckon with the people as opposed to just one person whose idea is I'm going to run it the way I want to run it.

[00:16:29]>> Hmm.

[00:16:29]>> Um so, every in the national scale I would say that I am far more of a I would call myself leftist. I would call myself probably close to closer to a socialist or a democratic socialist because that is about as far left as American politics will get.

[00:16:49]>> [laughter] >> Which yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:16:53]>> a very practical person. I'm a very practical >> I'm the same way. I'm the same way. Very pragmatic.

[00:16:58]>> And so, like ideologically I'm more anarchist, but like when it comes to matters of actual government, democratic socialism would be the ideal uh process by which governance would take place. Uh that would be um less in less emphasis on um inherited power, less emphasis on capital as a primary engine of government, and uh collective ownership of government by and for the people with more direct democracy than what we see right now. Um >> Yes.

[00:17:35]Yeah, it's funny. I It's funny. I was reading today. Sorry, I didn't read. I was listening to for the first time in my life Richard Wolff.

[00:17:42]Um uh and I never heard of him before.

[00:17:44]Someone's like, "Hey, if you want to know more about like just Marxism and other ways of of thinking about the economy and culture, listen to this guy." So, I'm going through and all It's a 13-year-old speech. It's I think that the video title was like is like introduction to Marxism. And I'm listening and I'm like, "This makes a ton of sense. This is things that I thought about." Because, you know, the the the promises of capitalism, you know, I think a lot of us are finding out, especially in the way it's structured in America, this like very corporatized sense uh of capitalism where these companies and people are getting so exponentially richer while the rest of us are continuing to struggle despite working all the time, right? And just trying to hustle in this in this uh in this gig economy. And it's funny, I used to work for a large tech company. You might have heard of them, they're called Apple. And um and I used to work in their store, and one year I sold a million dollars worth of iPhones for them in a small store by myself, okay? A million. And I got none of that. My base salary was still like unlivable, even though I sold a million [laughter] dollars worth of their product. And that was one of the first moments where I'm like, "They're profiting billions every quarter.

[00:18:54]They're not netting. They are They're They're They're not grossing.

[00:18:56]They are netting. They are capturing and making money in by the tunes of in the tune of billions, and I still can't get an affordable paycheck here, right?" And that was kind of my first wake-up call of like, "I don't know if this is actually fair, because I grew up very conservative, as I'm sure you can imagine, and was told, 'Well, if you don't like your job, go find another one. Just work harder. You know, uh all of these billionaires, they took a big risk that paid off." But, that's not true. Jeff Bezos didn't take a huge risk that paid Tim Cook didn't Tim Cook did not take a big risk that paid off.

[00:19:26]He didn't start Apple, you know? So, I do think about what you're talking about a lot of like I'm I'm not sure what what the alternate solution is, but I do know, and this is the point that Richard makes, in America, you we can question everything. America has thought about what is marriage, right? We we we we we we've expanded definition. One thing we can't talk about though is capitalism.

[00:19:47]That is still a conversation that we cannot think about because then you're a Marxist, inherently atheist, and inherently bad. It's just very interesting that we're having this conversation on the day I listened to him, and you're saying things that like I I'm hearing in that conversation.

[00:20:01]>> Look, the Holy Spirit um is a prankster.

[00:20:04]I I like to call I call her a prankster because she's very funny, and will often do things exactly like that all the time, and it is very annoying, honestly.

[00:20:14]Um but, I digress. That is something to take up with the Holy Spirit. She's got a lot more influence than I do. Anyways, all of that being said, um capitalism is I would say the final evolution of empire.

[00:20:30]And this is going to be something that goes all the way back. And I'm going to start intro- introducing the Christian angle to it because I am a Christian anarchist.

[00:20:39]>> Perfect. I love that. Let's go.

[00:20:41]>> So, there are plenty of anarchist philosophers you can read. Kropotkin is great. Um he's he's actually really accessible. Um talks a great deal about exactly the phenomenon you talk about in that if you work for a wage, it's because your boss has determined that what he pays you is the maximum amount you will allow him uh you he can get away with >> Right.

[00:21:04]>> uh robbing you blind.

[00:21:06]>> Right.

[00:21:06]>> And so, like he talks about that in great deal, but he also talked about mutual aid.

[00:21:10]And when I started reading about mutual aid and, you know, offering to the community that what you have and taking what you might need, that all very much rang very true to what I read back when I was in seminary, um, in the book of Acts, when they held everything in common and, um, shared resources and lifted up the community and all of them had what they needed, uh, because they were able to share all of their resources together.

[00:21:39]>> Mhm.

[00:21:40]>> And so, I like to joke that when I went to seminary, I read the Bible back to front and, uh, um, I became an anarchist as a result of it.

[00:21:49]Because as you read the Bible, you see that there is this strain of resisting the way that the rest of the world works. Um, one of the watchwords of Anarchodox, the podcast that I'm on, is that is the passage from, um, First Samuel, in which the people of Israel say, "Let us have a king like all the other nations."

[00:22:16]Um, and then, of course, Samuel tells the people and says, "Do you really want a king? Because a king will steal from you. Well, he will force you into military service. He will often, uh, take all that is yours and only leave you just the enough to survive."

[00:22:34]>> Right.

[00:22:35]>> And they were all like, "Yeah, no, we still want a king like every other nation." I was like, "Okay, I guess you'll get Saul."

[00:22:42]Um, >> [laughter] >> and Saul was good for a minute and then he was a king >> [laughter] >> and did exactly as Samuel said he would.

[00:22:55]David, man after God's own heart, did exactly as Samuel did as Saul did.

[00:22:59]All of the subsequent kings did unjust things and abused the people because they had the power to do so.

[00:23:08]>> Right.

[00:23:09]>> And so there's also a tradition in the Old Testament of the judges in which someone would come to power for a season of time and then once they were no longer needed they would just dissolve back into the world.

[00:23:24]They would go back to doing whatever they wanted to do.

[00:23:26]>> Right.

[00:23:27]>> Instead of running the country and their power didn't get passed from person to you know to their descendants.

[00:23:34]So there's already a model that was kind of working.

[00:23:38]>> Yeah.

[00:23:38]>> But every other nation had a king and they're like we kind of want one of those.

[00:23:44]You don't know what you're asking for.

[00:23:46]Too bad you got it. And so we have maintained that um unfortunately a lot of us throughout history have just reapplied that same logic to let us have a state like all the other countries so that we can be on level playing field with them. Um Okay, if you have a state well this is what states do. They are necessarily expansionist uh militarily unjust and often enforce laws at the end of the gun.

[00:24:17]>> Mhm.

[00:24:17]>> And so there is this resistance to that. When you take seriously the words of Jesus when he says those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

[00:24:28]>> Yeah.

[00:24:29]Yeah.

[00:24:30]>> And if you perpetuate violence in this world you will eventually become a victim of that violence.

[00:24:38]>> Mhm.

[00:24:39]You know it's interesting uh Matthew Taylor um a friend of the show. He has a new book coming out called Defying Tyrants and it's about it's it's essentially a uh dare I use the term biblical critique of Christian nationalism and what a more faithful approach looks like. And one of the points he makes in this book what even though it's not out yet is he makes the point that in Mark's gospel, which is our which is I think generally agreed upon to be probably the earliest gospel account that we have, um when he says, you know, the gospel of Jesus Christ at the beginning, that is essentially a major political statement because Rome would announce the gospel of Caesar to new territories, which was full of conquering and enslavement and all the things that that that he said that kings do. And the whole narrative of Mark, uh which I think Matthew Taylor says is kind of like a hamburger where like in the middle is is like the whole point and it kind of works its way out, you know, is is that this Jesus who preaches the gospel of a king who serves his people, who washes the feet of his disciples, who gave up his life for his people. So, it's actually very like anti-empire leaning gospel account that to that to that audience, if they were reading it, would have thought, "Oh, yeah, I know exactly what they're referring to." You know, this is a middle finger to Caesar and to Rome that that that this Christ is actually king. And what this looks like is completely the opposite of what an empire does. And so, you know, when I I'm reading this, I'm like, "Wow, I didn't know that cuz I grew up evangelical." But knowing that, this makes a lot of sense and it also doubles down, I think, what you just said and also the need to resist tyrannical forces like Christian nationalism, etc. >> Absolutely. Um if you ever get the chance, I would tell you to pick up the book uh That Holy Anarchist by Mark Van Steenwyk. Um she has this it's it's an incredible book. It's very accessible.

[00:26:24]It You can do it in your churches like a book study. Um that's like how it's set up. But basically, it reads the life of Jesus through an anarchist lens. Um and Jesus himself acting as this anti-authoritarian um figure who goes about questioning all the hierarchies that he comes into contact with. Um and it it's it's fascinating because like we think about Jesus Christ and we say like, "Okay, so he is uh King of kings, Lord of lords, etc. so forth." Okay, but what does that mean? If we say Jesus is king, what does that actually mean?

[00:27:03]There is an unspoken second half of that that says, "If Jesus is king, Caesar is not."

[00:27:10]>> Exactly.

[00:27:12]>> If Jesus is king, that means every other person that claims to be king um is lying. They're It's stolen valor, if you will. Um because Jesus is the only one with the authority to even take that name. And what was it that Jesus did um at the Last Supper? Oh, yeah, he put on a towel and started washing people's feet.

[00:27:33]>> Right.

[00:27:35]>> And he fed people and said, "This is my body. This is my blood. Eat and drink of this. Um do this in remembrance of me." And in doing so, in feeding people, in washing people, in taking care of people, in healing people, in fighting for the the rights of the the people that were on the margins of society, Jesus upset a lot of apple carts.

[00:27:57]>> Yep.

[00:27:58]Yep.

[00:27:58]>> Upset a lot of apple carts.

[00:28:00]>> Yep.

[00:28:00]>> And um that didn't didn't win him any favors with the powers that be. They're like, "Hey, he's kind of messing up everything that we're doing. All of this lovely hierarchy that benefits us is being threatened by this guy who is questioning everything and getting an awful lot of people to follow him around."

[00:28:20]Um >> Yes. It's inter- you know, I'll I'll be honest with you, May. It's so interesting talking about the term Christ as king or if Christ is king, Caesar is not because unfortunately, I track Christian nationalism for a living and those two phrases have been hijacked and are used by these people. Uh some of them say Christ is king as a dog whistle for anti-Semitism. Um and others like Doug Wilson will say Christ is king, so Caesar is not as a way to say essentially that Christians like him should be in charge, which again is such a bastardization of what's actually going on.

[00:28:54]I'm just making the point that like what you're saying is so correct. It's so on the money for what we know about Jesus and who he is, which only makes it that much more infuriating when these phrases that actually have beautiful meaning beneath them are hijacked for the very opposite purpose of which they were intended to to to be, right? And it just drives me bonkers that these white Christian nationalists use this these terms in in in in you know the the quest for their authoritarianist uh regime. It's just it's just a little antidote I wanted to throw out there. It just anecdote. It just it bugs the heck out of me.

[00:29:29]>> [snorts] >> It bugs the heck out of me, too. I'm like, oh, oh, they're just We talk a lot about I know. People get very weary when you start bringing up things like the demonic. However, um and I say that with all due deference to people's hesitation to that kind of thinking.

[00:29:52]All that being said, there is something very diabolical in the way that they twist scripture um that feels very much like the same kind of thing that Lucifer did in the desert when he tempted Jesus. Is that he kept on twisting scriptures to suit his purposes so as to put the king of kings and lord of lords into a position of subservience to him. And that is all that these Christian nationalists do. They only ever see the scriptures.

[00:30:24]One, they don't take anything in context. Two, they don't actually know anything about the history of what they're talking about. And three, everything is self-serving.

[00:30:33]It serves their best interests. It serves their pocketbooks. It serves their position in the culture. And it serves them to keep others down.

[00:30:44]>> Yes.

[00:30:44]>> And I fundamentally cannot abide that.

[00:30:46]>> No, I'm I'm right there with you, my friend. All all the way. I I completely agree with with those three points. It is it is mind-blowing. I I did a video a little while ago. I said Christian nationalism is demonic and I tied it into the the biblical motif, you can say, of how demons in the Bible are kind of like agents of chaos. You know, they kind of just sow chaos around like God's good earth. And I I kind of made it like that where I was >> like, you know, that when I say demonic, I don't mean like like how Christian nationalists use it, you know, I mean like like we have the option to partner with these forces that can either bring heaven on earth or hell on earth. And I agree with you 100%. So, I want to talk about transness as you as you said before before before we started recording and how it links into Christian anarchy. Like like I don't even know what question to ask.

[00:31:33]So, so just start talking about it so I can listen and learn.

[00:31:35]>> Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Okay.

[00:31:38]>> What is it? What is it? Help.

[00:31:40]>> it? So, I'm a trans woman, which is great except everybody seems to hate you all the time, which isn't so great. But I limit my time on Twitter nowadays, so I get less of that. It's wonderful now.

[00:31:51]Um Yeah, please. Anyways, uh that being said, being trans um questions a lot of things.

[00:32:02]Um I was very much of the opinions like, all right, I guess I'm a straight white guy.

[00:32:10]And it's just what the what the dice roll was for me and I guess I got to accept that. And then I really kind of did a lot of self-searching, a lot of self-analysis, and was like, why do I even think that?

[00:32:21]>> Hm.

[00:32:23]>> Because it never really suited me. It never fit me. I never I wasn't a very good guy. I mean, I was a good person, but I wasn't a good guy. Like when you think of a guy, >> You were like a bro eating steak and, you know, massive beard and rah rah rah.

[00:32:35]>> [laughter] >> I did have a I did have a beard. I did enjoy IPA and whiskey and like that's about as masculine as it gets cuz [laughter] I was a very I was very swishy and as much as I tried to repress that it's just what it is.

[00:32:50]You are who you are. I say I want to that's what it is. So I accepted myself. I decided on transition. Yes, this is what I wanted to do and that often makes a lot of people very angry because that defies what a lot of what they think about your life.

[00:33:06]Right?

[00:33:08]And so I had to do what was best for my mental health or my physical health and pursue a way of being that one, I didn't feel miserable all the time.

[00:33:22]And two, um I was actually happy for once.

[00:33:27]Um transition can make you happy.

[00:33:30]And and so all of that is to say I run up against [clears throat] all kinds of barriers when I did that because if you are transitioning to become a woman, to be a woman in a world that systematically devalues women, systematically puts women in an inferior position hierarchically in society, you're like, "Hey, what why is that hierarchy there in the first place? Why is patriarchy there in the first place? Why do guys get to do that?

[00:34:04]And why do you guys get to get away with all the violence they bring upon women?"

[00:34:11]>> Right.

[00:34:12]>> And it it is it is it is fundamentally uh antithetical to any concept of justice or fairness that people enforce these rigid things that no, you can't ever change. You can't even ever grow or evolve or become something better than what you used to be. And bringing it back to Christianity, I was like, but like the whole game of Christianity is metanoia. The whole game is transformation and renewal of one's mind, right?

[00:34:45]What is transition if not renewing one's mind?

[00:34:48]>> Mhm.

[00:34:50]>> And so it because of that I it really reinforced that yeah, I'm an anarchist because whatever structure that patriarchy has enforced upon us from the top down isn't working.

[00:35:02]>> No.

[00:35:02]>> see the way the world is right now? It's not working.

[00:35:07]It's falling apart at every level because guys who didn't want to be told that hey, maybe the world doesn't revolve around you.

[00:35:17]>> Right.

[00:35:19]Right.

[00:35:20]>> But here we are. And um >> Yeah, here we are.

[00:35:23]>> So you you know.

[00:35:24]>> It's funny when when I watched my my wife give birth uh twice. Uh I was like, why do we devalue women as a society? Like this is like you know, it was like it was one of those things where I was like, I can't believe that you did this. This is amazing. You are so strong and so powerful and so beautiful. And yet like we have this impression that women are inferior and that they're weaker and that they're like not really worth listening to. It just like it was it was just another moment in in in my mind where I was like, who made these rules up? Like why does our country have to be ruled by usually largely white men and white men when we keep doing it you know, it's it's like what's the old adage? Like you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different and expecting different results. We keep electing mostly old white men with the exception of one person who we most of us liked and we have the same problems. We're in perpetual wars. We're we're always protecting wealthy white men at the expense of everyone else. Like we're doing the same thing over and over again and we're expecting a different result.

[00:36:27]I mean, look, frankly, even Joe Biden, I know people get get get all up in arms when I say this, but not only was he an enabler of genocide in Gaza, he was he was a he was fine, I guess, but like he still did the same thing. That man did not give up power until it was way too late, you know? And so it's like it it's it's frustrating to see that because I I think you're totally right.

[00:36:48]>> Mhm.

[00:36:49]And and so trans you'll find in a lot of online spaces >> Yeah.

[00:36:54]>> there are a lot of trans people who tend to skew towards the left side of the of the of the column, right?

[00:37:01]>> Right.

[00:37:02]>> side of the grid. And um that's mainly because we believe that we are we should have body autonomy. We believe that we should be who we want to be. We should have the freedom to do and be in the way that we would like to be in our communities. Um and a lot of the people that keep us in control are people who are like, "No, you cannot grow. You cannot change. You must be status locked into the place that you have been pre-assigned long before you had any say so in the process."

[00:37:31]>> Right.

[00:37:32]Right.

[00:37:33]>> And um you know, I I grew up in Texas.

[00:37:38]>> Mhm.

[00:37:38]>> Uh I live in California now. I grew up in Texas. And growing up in Texas, I grew up as a Methodist, right? A United Methodist, which, you know, I'm no longer with them, but I wish them well.

[00:37:48]They're doing fine now. Um that mhm the culture in Texas is like you are thrown into a bowling a bowl of hot soup and you are marinated in patriarchy and evangelicalism >> Uh-huh.

[00:38:06]>> from birth. And so you in you absorb into you all kinds of whack job ideas about how sex and gender works.

[00:38:16]>> Yeah.

[00:38:17]>> And so it took a long time for me to figure it out. Took me 35 years to untangle some of that patriarchy from myself. And so, I'm not asking people to do it on a whim, like you can just go off on and learn this on a weekend seminar. No, to to to to question why we have things the way we have them and who we are in relation to them takes a lot of soul searching that can be often very painful and very mhm unpleasant. And so, I I say this with all the love in my heart.

[00:38:51]Gaze into the abyss occasionally because you might find something interesting gazing back that you weren't expecting.

[00:38:57]>> Yeah.

[00:38:58]>> Um in a time that you weren't expecting.

[00:39:00]And >> Yeah.

[00:39:01]>> Yeah, that's that's that's what I tell say to people.

[00:39:04]>> It it reminds me a lot of the the first wave of like social media deconstruction. You know, a lot of us kind of I mean TNE started out of that, right? Where I was like, I don't know where I'm heading, but I got to jump into a void and see what's at the bottom of this thing because I can't stay wherever I am. I think a lot of people when they first jump off the cliff, so to speak, are scared and rightfully so, right? Because these systems, especially when you when you grow up in it as a child, they really like they they they they give you a sense of purpose, identity, a sense of who you are. And when you start questioning those things, it's it's like an earthquake, you know, it's like a skyscraper in the middle of an earthquake. Like it's very unsettling. You don't know if you're going to topple over or not, right? But I found that the further I went it there was there was like there was like a a peak where it got to it to its worst and then it started getting better and easier and I was more curious. I actually started feeling lighter. And now that I'm kind of over the major hump of that deconstruction, you know, journey, I'm like, I couldn't imagine living and thinking how I used to live and think. Like I I I think about 21-year-old Tim and I'm like, "Wow, like I I just can't imagine going back to that way of thinking on any level." I love how my brain processes things now cuz it's more curious than ever and that curiosity lets me hold new ideas without a lot of judgment and then I can decide is this for me? Maybe it's not but maybe maybe it's for someone else etc. >> You cannot pour water into a cup that's already filled.

[00:40:34]>> Mhm.

[00:40:34]>> So at some point you have to empty yourself of everything and every preconception that you have to find water that is life-giving and life-sustaining.

[00:40:45]>> Yes.

[00:40:45]>> Right?

[00:40:45]>> Yes.

[00:40:46]>> Um Sorry, I used to preach a lot so I'm used to like doing those kinds of metaphors every once in a while. Um so I mean but this the metaphor works. You have to be willing to give up what you think mhm everybody expects you to be to find who you are in this world and trans people do that. Um sometimes they're very clear when they're like age three like yeah, I know I'm I'm a boy. I'm a girl and they're like oh, okay and you see a lot of that when it comes to trans kids.

[00:41:22]Trans kids know what they are >> Mhm.

[00:41:25]>> better than anybody else because they're the ones that are in their head. You're not in their head.

[00:41:29]>> Right.

[00:41:29]>> No one else is in their head and nobody's putting these ideas in there.

[00:41:33]>> Right.

[00:41:33]>> A lot of times you will find that they have these ideas just spontaneously out of out of the vapor. They've observed society. They're like yeah, no I'm I'm a girl. I'm boy, you know, and if even if that doesn't match whatever biologically sex they were assigned at birth.

[00:41:51]>> Mhm.

[00:41:51]>> Um they know themselves better than anybody else does. Um you know yourself better than you than than anybody else knows you Tim and I I empower everybody listening to this to check your ego at the door and take the time to interrogate not just your identity, but it interrogate the reasons why everything is set up the way they are. That is the basis of energy. Um, and it can be life-giving. I love interacting with my community now. I love finding ways in which we can build up each other. Um, in in in true solidarity and love.

[00:42:37]>> Yeah.

[00:42:37]>> One of the things about energy that is beautiful is um, the concept of parallel structures. Um, it's often referred to as building the new world in the bones of the old.

[00:42:47]Right? So, you see the society that you've been given and you decide, well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to change the whole thing all at one go. That seems unrealistic, but I can start in my community. I can form a mutual aid program for people in need where I live. I can help feed people in my community. I can help um, protect say people who are undocumented and give them training so that they know their rights, so that they can resist getting to know your undocumented neighbors, so that you can defend them when and if ICE comes to their neighborhood knocking on doors.

[00:43:27]And these are things that you can do. You see it beautifully in Minnesota. You see it so wonderfully how anarchism arrived spontaneously to resist the empire that was knocking on their doors.

[00:43:43]>> Yes.

[00:43:43]>> It was beautiful. And and that can happen. It can work.

[00:43:48]>> Mhm.

[00:43:49]>> And people who say, I often say that being an anarchist is nothing less than simply being a very frustrated optimist.

[00:43:56]Um, I believe in people. I believe in the best of people and even if people don't give me a lot of reason for me to believe that, I still believe in them. I tend to believe people have a good heart at their very basic essence.

[00:44:15]Um notwithstanding certain people in our government at this time because frankly I think some of them are a little too far gone.

[00:44:22]>> Oh, no, for sure. You're pretty Don't get me started on that. I I agree with you 100%. You know, I was in I visited Minneapolis about a month and a half ago to visit some friends who were directly impacted by ICE. And it was like really powerful to see how the community responded. I mean, even when I was there they had people on every corner watching for ICE. You know, every every home had an F ICE sign or every business said we don't serve ICE. It was very clear and it felt like honestly it felt like it felt like it was like it was like after a war zone happened. Like you you could feel the heaviness, you know. I visited Alex Perry's memorial. It was super just intense. But it was what you said. I talked to my friend who's kind of tied into that to that like activist scene and he was like, "Look, dude, there were groups who didn't really get along who all met to get along and to organize to get ICE out of Minneapolis." And they did. And I just think, you know, as as as as horrific as it is that our own federal government sent armed masked ICE agents into a city to kidnap our neighbors, which is terrible, it's like a really beautiful and uh silver lining encouraging response to see what can happen when a community comes together and says, "No, we're not going to tolerate this. We are absolutely going to organize to get you out of our cities because you're not you're not you're not promoting a world of human flourishing.

[00:45:39]You are bringing hell on earth and we can't have that here."

[00:45:42]>> Absolutely. Um and it is beautiful to see. And what was wonderful was seeing how many religious folks, how many churches got together to resist that kind of fascism encroaching on their neighbors. You saw, you know, Minnesota Lutherans giving out hot dish to people who are hiding from ICE, and it was beautiful.

[00:46:04]>> Yeah.

[00:46:04]>> Um >> Yeah.

[00:46:06]>> But I was also heartened to see a lot of religious figures descend upon the city to offer their solidarity. And I've been very impressed with a lot of um religious organizations. I'm thinking primarily of like Bishop Buddy um from the Episcopal Church, but I'm biased.

[00:46:19]I'm an Episcopalian right now, so you know, I I >> [laughter] >> I have a little bit of a bias.

[00:46:24]>> Just a little bit, you know.

[00:46:25]>> Just a little bit. I'm laying that card on the table just very quietly so nobody notices. Um but you see that people of faith can participate in these kinds of acts of resistance out of a sense of justice and deep faith that Jesus commands us to love the lost, the least, and the forgotten.

[00:46:48]>> Right.

[00:46:48]>> And to protect those who are most vulnerable.

[00:46:51]>> Yeah.

[00:46:51]>> Um >> Yeah.

[00:46:53]>> And really that that is what animates everything. And so you put that all together. Being trans um really reinforced that, "Oh, the hierarchy is all stacked against you." Uh no matter what you're going to do, the hierarchy is going to be a stacked against you because you have chosen to go against the very concept of the basis of their hierarchy, patriarchy, the thing that puts men on top of of every other gender under the sun.

[00:47:19]>> Right.

[00:47:19]>> Um so brother, sister, siblings of all gender, I will say that I think trans people in community with trans people will strengthen all of our communities.

[00:47:30]So um this is my earnest plea. Um get to know trans person in your life and uh befriend them. And oh, hire them if if you can.

[00:47:38]>> Yeah.

[00:47:39]>> We're we're in a pretty precarious place right now. A lot of a lot of um businesses see their HR departments see trans people as a liability because well, what if another co-worker decides to discriminate against them in the office?

[00:47:54]Well, suddenly you have a liability issue. And so they're like side stepping that and just not hiring trans people.

[00:48:01]That is a bit of a side attack, but it is like >> Wow.

[00:48:05]>> It's not like legal. Obviously it's not legal.

[00:48:08]>> Right.

[00:48:09]>> But they're not going to say that. And no one can catch them if they don't say it.

[00:48:12]>> Right. Exactly. That makes sense. Well, May, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing all this. It is a lot to think about. I think this is I like these conversations where even after the recording I'm going to sit on this and kind of process what we talked about because it's very thought-provoking and maybe can help us shape a better world where human flourishing for all is possible, you know. If folks want to follow your work, what where can they do that? Are you online? Do you have social media presence? Plug plug all those all of those things.

[00:48:38]>> Um I'm Doctor May Forest basically everywhere. I'm on Substack. If you go to Mayforestbarns.substack.com, um that's where my writings are. Uh you can follow my podcasts. I have two of them. One is Unorthodox. It is the Christian uh anarchist podcast that I do with my friend Bill. Um we he and I talk about the news and the saints and uh go into deep dives in history on Christian figures and Christian anarchy and it's wonderful. Uh there's the other podcast I do that is not Christian. It is called Fox and the Hill House. Um it is an X-Files rewatch podcast. We have a lot of fun with it.

[00:49:13]>> [laughter] >> And so if you want to hear more of my delightful voice, you can go to those places. Check me out on Blue Sky. I hang out there most often. Um and yeah.

[00:49:23]There we are.

[00:49:24]>> I love that. Thank you again for coming on. I'm sure we'll do it again and I wish you the best.

[00:49:29]>> Thank you very much for having me on.