Black femicide is the gender-based killing of Black women and girls, shaped by the compounding effects of race, gender, and class oppression simultaneously. It encompasses intimate partner violence, state violence, missing and murdered Black women, and structural impunity through police failures. Black women are six times more likely to be murdered than Black men, with 74.7% of Black women killed by Black men in 2023 killed by firearms. The term 'femicide' is often misunderstood as requiring proof of personal intention, but it actually refers to structural behavior patterns of male dominance enforced through violence. The presentation critiques both Africana womanism and African womanism for not adequately addressing the specific harms Black women face, arguing instead for a framework like 'bombarism' that centers Black women's liberation as a prerequisite for all liberation while addressing the conditional benefits Black men may receive from patriarchy.
Dare 2 Struggle Dare 2 Win (E47)Hinzugefügt:
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[singing and music] >> [music] >> My bad. I had us mute. Welcome back to Dare to Struggle, Dare to Win. Gi Yousef, Sheree, how y'all feeling?
Um, you know, live black, [laughter] >> man. Feeling like a nerd. Good brother.
>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
>> Looking like a nerd, man. You look like a student, man. I mean, a professor.
>> Something like Yeah. I appreciate I appreciate that, man. Thank you. Thank you.
>> He be all on the news and stuff.
[laughter] funny.
>> Yeah. [snorts] >> So, listen, we got a treat for y'all today. Y'all welcome into um Dare to Struggle, Dare to Win. And we have a um a continuation from last last conversation um with Sheree doing a presentation. But um before we get into that, we want to make sure you uh copy paste and comment and share with some folks that you want to invite to this conversation. Um yeah, let's let's uh before we do that, wasn't didn't you have some check-in, Sheree? I'm sorry.
>> Yeah, I just thought we'd just check in like what's been happening in everybody's life. I know we took a break last week. we um able to kind of have a good uh collective meeting about some of the upcoming shows we got planned for y'all. So excited about that. But um but yeah, I just wanted to kind of see what everybody's been getting into. I know I've been getting into, you know, creating this presentation [laughter] that um you know, and the events that took place leading leading us here. um you know but um yeah I mean that's you know kind of been last couple of uh days for me and uh you know still working still um yeah just processing and learning and creating in real time and learning patience with myself um oh thank you thank you Leia thank you I appreciate that or Leah I always say it's it's Leah I don't know why I say Leah but it's Leah Right.
>> Leah.
>> Yeah. Leah.
>> That's how Dr. Dennis was pronouncing your name. [laughter] >> That's right there. [clears throat] He was like, "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry." And then I tried to I tried to give him this the the way I say it like in um pronunciation where I put like Sheree and then like it it always does that autocorrect. And then he he it changed to a D and he started being like shared.
[laughter] I was just like, "Oh gosh, I can't win. I can't win."
>> Yeah, I was I was there for all the comment responses. That's what you >> I ain't making I ain't making no excuses, but uh when I look at your name and then I think about Dennis from Baltimore, there's a place called Char Cherry Cherry Hill, but they said Char Hill. So I wonder [laughter] I wonder if he got so used to saying Char Hill that he could not even get the >> Yeah, because I hear that Baltimore was all in the D of it, you know? I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that little nasty accent."
But um but [laughter] but all love, all love. But um but yeah, I don't know what if you want to talk about what you've been getting into, Gei.
Um, I just been uh we've been trying to get this uh uh curriculum done. Well, I mean the syllabus done for uh the summer program in Baltimore and then uh getting some other things associated with that and then really trying to find the next thing to to get into. So So I've been doing that most of the time.
>> How about you?
Uh man, you know, just just working u navigating that uh starting preparing what I'm going to launching the Mama Cool Community House, our summer summer activities and things. And then personally, this this time of year, you know, I'm going have to show y'all some pictures of my yard, you know, my green my green thumbs and getting my yard together.
>> No, there's a there's a Sheree who be green thumbing over there. You doing it or Sherry though? Well, Sherry Sherry set the set the the groundwork for me and I've been building off of it, you know, over the last couple years.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh, that's why you now it makes sense.
That's why I used to be struggling my name sometimes. That's be like people know somebody named Sherry and then they meet me and they always be going back and forth mentally like which one is which. So now it makes sense. That be happening all the time.
>> And also I I am terrible with pronunciation of names. No, I mean, but my name is confusing because it's French and so it is technically Sheree, but it's like we say it the American way.
So, it's like Sheree, but >> So, it's like that weird, you know, >> based on where you are because if I was, I guess, Haitian or um or born in France, I would probably say it differently than I than I do.
>> And every time I try to pronounce I try to think about that Stevie Stevie Wondersstone.
>> Yeah, that's what I was named after.
That's one thing people >> I didn't know that.
People always think I'm like Haitian because of my name, but my parents literally got it from um from the Stevie Wonder song because they like some Mottown um heads. So that's what they they that's where they got my name from.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> All right. Well, I'm excited uh all this work that you put into this this piece and the conversation afterwards. So, >> yeah. Um I'm excited, too. A little bit nervous, y'all. I've been working all day and I I didn't go to sleep last night, which was very bad of me.
[laughter] So, I haven't re reviewed it since last night 6 a.m. or this morning 6:00 a.m. when I decided to go to sleep and then turn around and start doing calls for my job at 10:00 a.m. So, [laughter] and I didn't even have coffee. But I think the energy of the revolution is keeping me alive. It's sustaining me.
So, you know, I'm just ready to get into [laughter] ready to get into it. Um, but basically um I don't know how hip everybody is to like I guess what's been happening. I don't want to go too deep into that, but a lot of conversations took place after the week before last week's um um episode and uh within the comments within the comments on a clip that was posted as well. And then there was some back and forth between a friend of the of the I guess um channel um Dr. Dennis and I. We had some back and forth um that ended up being pretty cordial.
Started off pretty you know with the rah but I mean yeah you know God's not done working with me yet. Um my ancestors are still um you know preparing me for for what is to come. So I have my moments.
Um but [laughter] but I think the nook of it is is you know like I said there's a lot of misunderstanding of words and that was I guess the root of the conversation that um took place or from the clip uh that was shared was we had this conversation about femicide which I've always talked about in a particular context of race, gender class. Um, ever since I've heard the word and kind of had a consciousness of race, gender, class, I've been always talking about it in that context. And I, with me, I'm somebody that's still getting used to like always um, you know, like having to have like exact definitions, but I am understanding how important they are because with me, I'm the type of person everything is feeling. And a lot of my life is like speaking in um speaking about words within context clues. And sometimes I don't always know what embodies um a word and or what um or what just what is it typically associated with. So that's was my struggle with femic where I was always talking about it within the context and even with the um previous episode I still was talking about the word within the proper context but I never knew what was included within the definition. similar to words like racism. I don't always, you know, know if I because typically when I talk about racism, I'm talking about systems and things, but I don't know if that's the, you know, standalone definition of racism or if you have to add systemic racism. So, that was kind of like my confusion of it. But yeah, I got kind of brought into like a bigger thing of definitions. So, I took the time um to kind of dialectically break down femicide, how it relates to a larger conversation we've been having on the platform. Um, and I also took the challenge that uh because I think one of the heavy critiques of femicide is that it comes from feminism and um and from feminist thought and there's always been, you know, critiques of feminism on the channel, which, you know, is valid with. And as a somebody that considers themselves a radical black feminist, I um have always been very open and try to very much attack those um critiques of femicide. I mean, not feministic, feminism. Feminism. So I won't um so so so that you know we don't just you know be like get very um what is it? Domatic with specific frameworks. So I'm always trying to critique um feminism as well um you know as that is the the the yoke of of black feminist like scholarship for the most part. So um so yeah so with that um I I decided to I was also challenged to um come up with my own framework because that's another thing that's emphasized so much within the community of black women coming up with new frameworks. people being like feminism is tired even if you throw radical black feminism on top of it like can you come up with a new framework and for me um yeah so for me I I did challenge myself by doing this and um I guess I'll kind of get more into the descriptor of everything um once I go into it but that was just kind of a little preview of what I wanted to get into but before we start I guess through all of these conversations um >> can I can I add something real quick for you >> just slow down a little bit just Okay.
Yeah, got you. Sorry, I am nervous, guys. So, my bad. Thank you so much.
>> Take your time. Take your time.
>> Okay. Yeah, so much to get into it. I just want to make sure I don't miss anything. Um, but okay. So, let's slow it down. And um the before I get into my presentation, I want um uh Gichi and Yousef to have a chance to talk about like two two questions before I go into it or two trains of thought they want the uh the chat and the audience to think about as I go through this.
>> You got yours ready? [laughter] throw me the alley who um I mean I think for particular black men um know anytime we're we're talking about the relationship between black women and black men and and centering fe feminism [snorts] whether you agree with it disagree with it uh to to challenge yourself to sit with it um not not the ideology the conversation um about what what's being said and what's being heard and to to explore before you react.
And then with black women to also to engage yourself beyond the the the what you're hearing as well. I mean even speaking broadly from your perspective or your lived experience. Ultimately the show is about dialectical. So dialectically where do we meet in where do we meet in the middle? Ultimately uh for me the framework is about black liberation and how we move out of our out of our oppression. So that's it's more of a framework than a question.
Um, for me, I want to uh give Sheree a shout out for agitating the um the environment to uh dig and um be more I guess I guess dialectical around uh topics that most of us say we have a politic about but we don't we don't we don't uh uh we don't become eager at participating in the public dialogue of those things like and um so thank you for um making sure that this space uh has had those conversations um I think it has created a ripple and a good ripple like we I mean we've all had conversation we had the meeting you know me and Loric talk and then I'm I'm having a com I'm having a conversation with multiple people about like the con the dynamics in uh in general and yeah like so I encourage people to just be open um there's always a way in a reason to critique and there's sometimes you could be more curious and I I plan to be more curious but I also um yeah like uh yeah I just think we should be open as we engage in this conversation and realize that I think we in a room among people that all trying to get to the same place. Um and so yeah, I'm looking forward to your your conversation.
>> Okay, guys. So, I'm gonna um start. I just want to tell the chat I'm not going to be looking at your comments because I be sucking at looking at the comments and this is just going to be too much.
I'm gonna be looking at my notes and trying to stay focused. Um, Gi and Yousef will be able to be involved in the comments and, you know, hopefully after we can bring up anything that like stood out in the comments and and whatnot. Um, but I'm going to do my best to not [laughter] try to look at the comments. Uh, and I will be turning to the next page. Um, if anything crazy happens like all of a sudden I have lipstick on my teeth, just yell stop and I because I'm not looking at myself. So, you know, I I trust that y'all let me know something weird happened. If a lot gets out of line, just let me let me know. Um, okay. So, um, yeah, the dialectus of black struggle is the name of episode. We're we're starting with the circle back to femicide. So, that's why I, um, named it that, I guess.
Okay. So I guess for me I wanted to [sighs and gasps] ground this conversation as well as I'm ground grounding the ideology that I guess I'm developing for myself and others can kind of over time I guess fill in for me. Um uh developing an ideology called bombar bombaraism um from Tony K.
who we did a special episode on um about a couple a month and some change ago. Um I want to say where we had her granddaughter on. And um to me this uh excerpt from an article that was in her book, The Black Woman, that she published that had several articles and poems and short stories from black women issued in 1970. She wrote an article called the issue of roles where she talked about um black men and black women um doing the work and collective work to you know kind of uh for lack of better word. I know we get tired of hearing it but like revolutionary re revolutionary change the way we look at um at gender and roles and and um as far as um you know within the black community. Um so like within within this um um and and specifically within doing you know struggle for liberation. So this is the article um the clip from the article that I want to share. Um she said keep the big guns on the real enemy. Men have got to develop some heart and some sound analysis to realize that when sisters get passionate about themselves and their direction, it does not mean they're readying up to kick men's ass. They're readying up for honesty. And women have got to develop some heart and sound analysis so they can resist the temptation of buying peace with their men with self-sacrifice and posturing. The job then regarding roles is to submerge all breezy definitions of manhood, womanhood, or reject them out of hand if you're not swim not scrimmage um about about being called a neuter. um until realistic definitions emerge through commitment to blackhood. And when I say blackhood, I think um she was more so just talking about a sense of being black. And a lot of us, you know, on this channel associate that with being African people, African people um of the diaspora, Panaffrican, um you know, so just blackhood uh in general is kind of like, you know, it's it's coming from whatever scope you're coming from. if you're pan-African, new African, um, uh, a a black um, nationalist is coming from whatever scope, but just saying that in order to get to any of those things, like this this work has to be done. And I think that's the point or theis of what I'm making. It's never been to have a gender war. Um, a lot of the principles that I was attempting to get out um, last episode was to kind of how can we center this conversation where both black men and black women um, are talking about creating a collective culture um towards redefining these things. And it's not to say get rid of um, you know, men or and we all just come man or woman or become all um, genderless or something. I mean that you know that's a you know personal choice.
But it's saying the breezy definitions um like more fluidity because that's what we had, you know, before all of these um systems we before we got these rigid definitions of a man's role and a woman's role um to just become more fluid. Um but I'll go back to this in my next um in my next slide where I get deeper into it. So I was challenged to come up with my own framework and if I was to do that as a black woman, I would call it bombaraism.
And to me, bombaraism is a framework um that is a commitment to black unity that addresses triple oppression that black women experience through race, class, and gender simultaneously. It centers black women's struggles both systemic and interpersonal while aiming to unite black men and women culturally to demolish the dominant political system of white hegemonic imperialist capitalist colonial patriarchy. Um yeah.
Yeah. And so like it's it's theoretical, it's colonial. I mean it's um it's cultural, it's you know anti-colonial, um it's all of these things and it's it's just like a push to move away from like reactionary gender roles to like understanding that this is the work that we both should be doing. Um to me it pulls a lot from um a lot from what I and I haven't read a lot of Claudia Jones but from a lot of what I see her theory. She never identified as as feminist or any and a lot of people always bring that up but she recognized triple oppression. She was able to see these things and her womanhood and the racism and the classism at the same time without having to put one on the back burner. She was able to constantly antagonize these things and she had a dedication to culture as well that I also think is important because Tony K bombar is a cultural worker. So there's this element of like you know no we don't have control over these large dominant systems but we do have immediate control over the culture we we create amongst our families amongst our organizations amongst our household amongst our friendship um circles. We do have some level of responsibility of the culture we create around those things.
Um and yeah it also pulls from radical black feminism and African womanism. Um because for me I feel like you can have those two identities. I think you can identify with a lot of black radical feminist thought and African womenism and it doesn't have to be like these two separate things and I'll kind of break down how they can support each other as I go on. Um before we get deeper into the conversation, I did want to just go over these um these definitions. I'm not going to read necessarily all of each one um out loud because it's probably going to take um probably going to take too long. So I'll just try to bullet point. Um, but like these are not like dictionary definitions. I like pulled from like, you know, just a lot of theories that we talk about within the black radical tradition. Um, patriarchy is not simply men in charge. It is a system that operates simultaneously with race and class. Um, cannot be fought on on the gender alone analysis. Um, misogyny is the structural enforcement of patriarchy.
um not personal hatred but a political technology that disciplines women who resist. Massage is not racism plus sexism but is distinct um fused form of oppression specific to black women um black radical feminism insists that black women's liberation is not a subset of liberation. It is a a prequiset of all um liberation and Africana um womanism and African womenism are distinct frameworks. Um and that's something that I think a lot of people miss. Um and I was challenged to look deeper into both. So I took that challenge. Um uh both I think you know have a level of importance. Um but I prefer one over the other. Um and we'll work through these um like you know as I go on but um so I'll probably just wait to like dive deeper into that. But I'm just kind of like talking about those things beforehand. And then anti-black racism because that word comes up a lot.
Before I get into any of that, I wanted to like define black femicide in full, give it like more um dialectical thought since like I said, I I was just ready to have the conversation about the specific events that were happening. But I'm now going back to get like clear on the definitions because I think the lack of clarity on the definitions is like one of the hugest gaps that's like causing so much tension within these conversations between um black men and women. Um so femicide is the gender-based murder of women or girl girls typically defined as the intentional killing of females by males because they are female. That's how it's typically defined. But it is the genderbased murder of women and girls.
So that is, you know, that's different, but I know how it's t typically defined, even how I defined it because like I said, I was I was in rush to get to the larger conversation. Um, but it's a gender-based murder of men of of of women and girls. And black femicide is not simply femicide that happens to black victims. It is like a distinct phenomenon shaped by the compounding effects of race and gender oppression simultaneously.
And so I'm saying this to say that um a lot of the things that we think are so separate from femicide as far as causes for why black women may be getting murdered and killed still fall under the thought of black femicide. I think um we have a limited and obviously not understanding uh not unclear understanding of what those things are.
And so we think that we go and rush and say, "Well, what about this and what about that?" without realizing it falls under the definition of black femicide.
Um so black femicide refers to um the gender-based killing of women and girls where racial identity shapes their vulnerability to violence, their in invisibility in data and media, and the institutional failures that allow perpetrators um to go unchecked. Um, so it comes from intimate partner violence, state violence is a part of it. Um, missing and murdered, the fact that black women and girls go missing at alarming rates and get less media attention. Um, that is a systemic structural thing that um falls under the conversation and dialogue of black femicide um as well. um just the lack of media attention because even that is like a motivator and like people understanding that you can kill black women and it not it won't get a uh most of the time it won't get a lot of attention and people won't look for these women if if you kidnap them or something. Um and then serial um predation um where even um serial killers specifically target black women like a similar thing because they feel like it's going to be less uh less consequences. um structural impunity. Um you know like it's it's also sustained by the failures of the police system which we as you know um a lot of us that identify to some degree as a prison abolitionist or people that want um a liberatory framework from like the prison indust industrial uh a liberation from the prison industrial con um complex. We understand that even those can harm black lives, especially black women's life because of just like, you know, the limited resources, um the criminal system that constantly just undervalues black life. Um when black women need help, sometimes that very system that they may be going to ends up harming them in the end. So all of these things can tie under um black femicide um black femicide by the numbers and like and you know and I have kind of the references of where I'm getting the numbers from. Um black women are six times more likely to be murdered than um black women. This was um you know a quote that somebody came to in 2024 based on uh collective data leading up to 2023 um between I think 1999 to 2023. Um and then um 44% of of uh black femicide or black um is done through gun basically like that well sorry for there's been a 40% rise um of gun homicide um towards black women between 2019 and 2023. So we're talking about four years where it's risen because of the gun laws. Um and most femicides are done by gun. That's where I get to this. Um, uh, 74.7% of black women killed by black men in 2023 um, were killed by a firearm. Um, so it's like a very specific type of of killing, too. And, um, I could go on about some of the other numbers, but, you know, this is here to kind of look at. I don't want to stay on it too long.
And then there's one more thing that I wanted to say about the stats is that um pregnant black women are um 11 times more likely to be victims of femicide than non-pregant black women which also makes you think of like you know um it was mentioned in a critique uh you know about femicide about like well what about the kids or what is the specific framework for the kids but like I said as I tried to connect last episode like the the harm of femicide impacts s you know children too and even children unborn um because of all the systematic harm that I think we face in this country and worldwide um because of particular things you know they can lead to black women being pregnant and being like you know more likely targets just because of like you think of a a of a there's definitely a strong I feel like class part of that of like affiliated with that as well when think about black life and the fear of black life being brought into this world and responsibilities and not having resources like all of those things, you know, tie into that. Um, one of the biggest things that I wanted to clarify that was widely widely and is widely misunderstood when we talk about femicide is neither genderbased or gender motivated is rooted in personal intention. Because a major critique that I have continued to hear was how do we calculate femicide? How do we prove it?
How do we know these men are saying I just want to kill women specifically black women because they are black women? And what we are missing is that gender motivation and gender base neither has to do with the person saying I'm doing this because of their gender.
It's the concept of structural behavior um um that uh the structural behavior encompassing a range of mechanisms through male dominance that is enforced through violence against women. So to prove femic aside, no, you don't need to get in a person's head and ask them why they did it. It is structural. It's all these things that we know are are tied to patriarchy, entitlement, punishment, cohesive control, honor and hatred. All of these things, whether you want to say gender motivated or gender based, I was going to say um because I think I even have at the bottom of here that genderbased or maybe I changed that. So, sorry about that. Let me go back. But yeah, genderbased is the is the word because gender based is more broad than gender motive. But neither even if you use gender motive, it still doesn't mean a person's personal intention or that that's what that person was thinking when they did it. So the way that we prove them aside is um a prior history of abuse, a pattern of cohesive control, communications, texts, voicemails, email, uh emails, social media, um witnessing testimony, the relationships that people w the people that were close to them, the things that they witnessed around them. um forensic evidence, um signs of overkill, specific body parts targeted, um rape being a part or associated with the killing as well. Um and then the context of separation, like that's one of the biggest things that stands out to me is 77% of femicide victims in total are killed after leaving the home or breaking up with a man. So, it's like a specific sort of punishment. Um, you know, like even if a person is finally deciding to get out of a situation that is harmful, um, you know, they're not given that chance. Um, unfortunately, um, and then there's a challenge with that with how I with how I described it.
There's a there is a challenge in proving it. Um, many jurisdictions um, lack femicide as a distinct criminal charge. um the proving motive is harder than um proving action. Um so this is something that women um that that care about femicide have to go through even when trying to um classify something as femicide. There's all of these things that they're up against because the system doesn't recognize it as a spec it doesn't recognize it as specific thing for women. It doesn't recognize a specific thing for black women, you know, especially. Um, and then you know like if if you want to count in wars and stranger femicide like all of these other things people you know typically classify those is something else even though they could still be affiliated with femicide. Um and so you know that's what hurt me the most about a response that I got from Dr. uh Dennis was that um the saying that it was overused when the saddest part about feminism is that it's w it's wildly under reportported um you know because it's not necessarily these systems that are classifying it's it's organizations um you know and I'm sure somewhere between liberal and radical organizers that care about femicide um you know are taking the time to go through the files but you know there's nothing structurally that is categorizing it So the numbers that we get are likely less than um the accurate numbers than higher than the accurate numbers. Um but the last time that it was accounted for in total was 2023 just because it's so hard. They don't have the numbers for 2024 2025.
um they don't have those numbers um just because it is hard to classify um because of mclassification at the point of record um institutional indifference and premature closure. The case closes, the the stuff is classified and and people can't get access to um structural invisibility of the most marginalized.
Um you know, especially when it comes to even like indigenous femicide to indigenous women. Um there's a lot of just like structural things um about just the fact of that black women and and brown women um all of that we're less people care less or gets less attention when something happens to us.
So it's like I said it just there's so many things a person has to overcome to even be able to classify something as femicide. Um and then community suppression. Um sometimes because of to avoid stigma or to um to hide certain things like a lot of these cases are suppressed. Um so because of the absence of data um and because you have to look in the data and be able to prove the things that I said before prior case of abuse all of these things um pattern of cohesive control. So it's widely under reportported. Um, another thing that I wanted to address was the birectional um, harm issue um, birectional violence um, in black femicide. Um, uh, to me it's a critical distinction. I can say that birectional violence and femicide definitely probably come from the same structural institutional things that we experience as black people. But to combine them within the same category does a huge disservice to black women to me. Um because it's like when you bring up femicide um the numbers and I put it right here cuz uh it's but it's typically brought up and what was brought up against me when I was talking about this was oh well 45% of black men have stated that they've been hit by women in domestic violence and and black women have the same number so it's just both of us. And I just think that that is just like I said, it's widely irresponsible to say because we know already with femicide, I'll say this quote once again, 77% of femicide victims are killed after leaving the home. And then um I can go back to the other number and but it's like about 90% of femicide victims are done through gun violence. So, these are not scenarios where two individuals are fighting and um somebody um probably the male is like, "Oh, um I need to protect myself and now somebody ends up dead." Like, this isn't a back and forth thing. This is either somebody leaving the house um and somebody's coming after them and then however it's done, somebody's also getting a gun and you know, creating the act. So it's not like a oh we're just hitting each other and then femicide happens. Um because overall birectional violence describes a pattern of mutual conflict within a relationship. Femicide describes an outcome a killing you know.
Um and and basically most people that are in birectional vi uh relationships most of those relationships do not end in femicide. And um somebody like a Dr. Dennis knows this because in most of those situations where the violence is for whatever reason mutual um most of the time those couples either you know do separate over time or they go to somebody and get help like the conclusion doesn't usually become like um the woman is dead in the end. Um, femicide emerges from cohesive control dynamics where one person dominates. One person dominates, particularly the man, which ties back to patriarchy.
So that is what I mean where there's two different things. If you're h if you're able to gather evidence and of control dynamics where it is that one person then it's not the same thing as um as birectional harm where like both people are just hurting each other and it often it becomes victim blaming or misidentifying a a black woman as the primary aggressor and that is something in our culture that we we have to actively stand against I believe um you know do the work to unpack Um, a lot of the times because of Massage Noir, um, black women are arrested when they defend themselves against their abuser. We're not typically seen as victims. So, we get higher numbers of of of black women getting arrested for defending themselves against their abuser. Um, the numbers are higher uh, when it comes to black women. Black women are also higher um, in numbers when it comes to killing their abusive um, husbands. Um, a lot of studies have shown that like we more than any other group of women do take matters into our own hands after dealing with systems of abuse from one person.
And I mean it makes a lot of sense when you think about it dialectically because you know um if you if you do something and you you're in a thing with your your guy or whatever, they can also look at you as somebody that's violent too or the same harm that we always talk about where black women are are very much afraid that their abuser could get hurt by the police or that the police will unjustly kill their partner. So instead of going to these systems because we know these systems do not work in our benefit or protect us or help us, we take it into our own hands. So, black women are more than any other group likely to defend themselves or take it upon themselves to defend themselves.
And I think even understanding these things, I feel like it gives you, it should to me give you a greater passion for um calling for like that sort of um uh you know, community control um thing within the community where we are where we are able to have um people that we can turn to um when we're in these situation as opposed to feeling like we're alone and having, you know, only one uh one way out. where we have 93% of women are convicted for killing a uh who are convicted for killing an intimate partner um had been abused by the same person. Um the majority of black women incarcerated for killing someone close to them were defending them were defending themselves against sustained abuse. So I just feel like these equal DV arguments pull away so much of like the levels of harm that black women experience. And it's not to say that um birectional violence isn't a thing and it doesn't happen, but I just think that it's um with the way it's brought up whenever black femicide is spoken about is just largely disrespectful um to what black women have to go through. Um yeah, and so I'm just circling back to the fact that black femicide does um if we're going to talk about it, we're going to talk about it for me from a radical perspective. It does incorporate all these things. patriarchy, class, imperialism, um all the things that I've talked about pre I've been talking about the class and its impact. Um I didn't get too much in the global impact, but I mean you know femicide is a global issue. I mean, you know, and even when it comes to these other countries, we're able to get better numbers in America, but the numbers globally, and I mean the UA, um, but the numbers globally are very hard to prove just because of like, you know, the way gender the gender issues that that impact black women internationally.
um you know are just when you think of war, when you think of like specific gender-based harm and of killings and mass rapes and all of those and assaults like it's just you know and it's going to go unpunished you know if it's through some sort of military action.
So, you know, white, like I said, so it's once again very much like under reportported, but it's to say that like, you know, I think, like I said, the thing or one of the criticisms of black femic aside was, oh, it could be so many other things because people are solely looking at it verbatim as it could mean so many other things other than a person intentionally wanting to kill a woman or it could mean so many other things. this when we're talking about black femicide um as a per other than a person wanting to intentionally kill a black woman but that is the framework that black femicide is that is the conversation that black femicide is happening now I understand that people can be reactionary and it can come and turn into a blame black men and black men just need to do better and I feel like let me slow down I feel like that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to do last episode is because I felt like a lot of the push online was pushing us towards that of like, oh, it's just black guys fault. Black men take accountability. It's you, you removing it from um removing it from all these wider structures. Um so yeah, so that's that's what I'm trying to say here is that the black femicide does incorporate all these things if we if we talk about it dialectically. But I feel like the push back of why is it femicide? How do you prove it? it's something else rather than understanding how it connects to all these things is what makes us end up makes is what makes it a gender war you know um when it doesn't have to be um let me say okay and then another thing I wanted to go back to that is always I guess kind of pushed back against when we talk about black men patriarchy and I felt like I really tried to find like the better words and shout out to Saturdays with Renee Okay, I watched last episode and about dialectical materialism and it definitely helped me.
I'm no dialectical materialism scholar, but I feel like having this framing definitely helped me think about like how can I explain or talk about black men and patriarchy with with um talking about both sides of it and how you can b you can benefit from a system that is intentionally harming you. And I feel like the framework that was laid out in the last episode, um, Lord, I'm blanking out his name, by our Asian brother.
Shout out to him. Um, sorry I be forgetting names, but he's, you know, he's great spirit, great energy. Um, but the core contradiction um that we're seeing um is basically, you know, you have your antagonistic contradiction and then you have your non-agonistic um contradiction. Um the uh antag like I said I don't want to read everything on the page but the antagonistic contradiction is white supremacist patriarchy was constructed in direct opposition to black male autonomy. Their marginalization is a feature not a bug.
The system does not intend to power black men. That's something that we can agree on. The non-antagonistic contradiction is that within black communities, black men do extract conditional patriarchal benefits. So, I'm saying it's a conditional benefit um and that it is a non-antagonistic contradiction to the to the um to the larger contradiction, but but they but they both, you know, are connected. Um and so yeah, so basically and and when I say these conditional patriarchal benefits um domestic labor um being abs uh disproportionately being absorbed by black women and we see that sometimes within churches, sometimes within our organizations, we talked about it um historically within the Black Panthers.
um the social difference um between uh black male leadership even when women are doing a lot of organizing work and and like I said oh I messed up with this I feel like I spelled that I don't I can't go back and change it's okay sorry my bad y'all but I meant to say snick um black panthers churches grassroots or and grassroots orgs today um um being centered as like the default victim of anti-blackness um we talked about like how we had the black lives matter movement then we started say the her name movement because black women were being killed by the police as well. Um, but there was a centering of of of black men, which, you know, there's no shame in, but but be because of these kind of like conditional, I guess, benefits.
Like I said, there's like a centering of like maleness because it's looked at as like male is the head and the leader of the community. And, you know, all of that comes from patriarchal thought. And um, and also, I'm drawing blank and I'm going to come back to Yousef about this because he said it, he brought up when I was on the phone, me and Yousef had a conversation earlier this week um, or last week where we were talking about Ida V. Wells and he also brought up a situation where um where she w where yeah her work wasn't centered um but black men's were or I'm I'm probably getting it wrong but I would like to go back to you for that story but I thought of that as well. Um but yeah so it's a sequency trap. Um so um yeah many black nationalist formations use the premacy of racial oppression to um and definitely defer addressing gender and sexuality. Um, basically it's like a logic of we can't fight each other right now. The real enemy is outside. And that's why I like Tony K. Bombar's conclusion of yes, eye on the enemy, but this is what we've got to do internally um amongst ourselves um or else you know all of you know our movements will suffer. And we have seen that our movements do suffer when we don't um interrogate patriarchal behavior. And it's not just patriarchal behavior of um men um over women even that can be seen within the structure of these organizations about who has the money, who's considered the leader, who has like this dominant sort of patriarchal power and the amount of things that they're able to abstract in ways they're able to manipulate people in the group.
It all comes from a like a patriarchal framing. And even though that you know black leader within your or within your grassroots org may not be um the white man um and benefiting from patriarchy at that mass because we know at any given moment the white man can take the organization away, take the money away.
So we know that the larger um thing is uh you know a white supremacist patriarchy but but within um the framing within our organizations if you know if we have male leadership they they can still fall into a conditional benefit of patriarchy that has to be um that has to be um pushed back on. Um but yeah so both things are simultaneously true.
Black men are victims of a system that uses patriarchy as a racial weapon against them. And they um and they are Asians who produce um I wouldn't say Asians. I feel like I should have took the Asian part out because that's going to be that's too much. I think that even Asians a bit heavy. But they can reproduce the part that I was trying to get is they can reproduce um patriarchal harm within their community. So neither neither side cancels out each other. um the scale of analysis um determines which aspect is dominant in any given moment. Um, so yeah. And then, you know, I'm still understanding how to talk about dialects, but like I said, somebody was talking about being hungry and then like trying to like uh in the episode of of Saturdays with RA, like you're hungry, but then you're trying to go to like a organizing event or something where it's like, you know, the main thing that needs to get done is like this sort of, you know, urgent sort of thing that you need to get done for the community. But the second um non-agonistic contradiction is you're hungry. And it's like you you're not going to be able to be present and fight the things that you need to fight if you're if you're starving um and you can't actively be involved in the thing that you're going to. And like I said, I'm paraphrasing the example that was given, but it was kind and so I think it's a similar mirror of what I'm talking about within the black community where we have to like be able to name these things and have an understanding that two things can be true then that doesn't, you know, Yeah. that that doesn't take away from the larger system. But, you know, we're we're going to be starving if we don't address the non-antagonistic thing. Um, so yeah. Um, I'm going to take a quick sip. I thought I I promise y was only like 10 more minutes. I'm like wrapping up, but sorry y'all. I know I've been going.
>> N take your time. You're doing well.
Thank you.
>> Um, so yeah. So, um I know there's a lot of different feminisms, womanisms, but like I said, my focus on here, I just wanted to focus on the main three. And I think it's getting dark, y'all. Let me actually try to um turn on this light really quick. I'm sorry. I I hope I'm because I don't I don't want to go um dark or uh I have a light. Sorry. One second, guys.
>> You're cooking. Everybody say you're doing good in the chat. I say you're doing good. Okay, >> Professor Yousef over there uh twirling his hands with a thumbs up, you know.
>> Okay, sorry guys. Let me just turn this little light on just because I don't want it to um I just want y'all to be able to really see me even though I can't see me really.
>> We just telling you you're good.
>> Okay. All right. And then I want to be able to see for myself too. Um so yeah.
All right. Um, so yeah, I so the main feminisms that I wanted to kind of or women frameworks for black women was black radical feminism, Africano womenism, and African womenism. And I know there's others, but I just wanted to focus in on these three because those were those were what were constantly brought up when um because like I said, the biggest critique of femicide is that it falls under feminist thought, whether it's radical black feminist thought, liberal feminist thought, um you know, that's the critique. And so then because there's a critique of of radical black feminism in general, then like I said, the whole idea of even having a framework of femicide is then kind of pushed back on entirely. Um but and so and then it says we need to come up with our other things. So like I said, I looked at these two concepts that were you know that were original um came out of, you know, frameworks that were rooted more in our African roots. And so I I looked into both of these and I've I've heard of these things. Um, Africana womanism is something that I heard about a while ago when I first read an article about it on Hood Communist. I knew it wasn't for me. [laughter] So, um, you know, but no shade to the, um, the woman that created this, um, Clenora um, Hudson Wells. Um, no shade to her. Shout out to her. You know, we all got to put our best effort forward, but I just have a lot of critiques of it. Um, I think it, you know, one of the biggest things is it is a rejection of feminism. Um, it's a historical argument that mainstream feminist movements um are actively exclude and betrayed black women and and stuff like that and are trained at are are tainted at the root.
And you know, the interesting part is is that's something that black radical feminists have also continuously critiqued and stated in their argument as well. Um but you know the primary argument of Africana womanism is that African people globally um that for African people globally racial domination is the essential threat um gender struggle within the community like and I'm not saying that this is something she said verbatim but I feel like the context in which it's explored these are my conclusions is that it's that it's view to me the framework makes it seems as if gender struggle within the community is a distraction. Um it goes to this idea of who were we before um feminism. Um who are we in Africa?
But it does not have any frameworks that address 400 years of slavery and hundreds of years of white hegemonic patriarchal indoctrination. It just doesn't, you know, have those frames of like of process to me to actually address these issues. Um but yeah but so you know there's other stuff like I said I feel like there's an illusion that we shouldn't publicly air our grievances I feel like in a lot of this and this is just what I see looking at it and you know and other women who have critiqued the framework um it has 18 characteristics um all of these are are characteristics of the women there's not there's no characteristics for what men should be doing under Africana womanism that's why you know so that's another issue that I have with it Um but these characteristics include self-namer, family centered, strong in concert with male counterpart, which once again I feel like if the male counterpart is also a victim of you know hundreds of years of indoctrination like like how are you in concert with that?
like how do you unpack it? The goal is to just be in con in in in concert with the male counterpart and there's no sort of principle that the men need to uphold in order for that to happen. So uh you know but yeah mothering is a part of it but it doesn't really go even even mothering and nurturing and all of this domestic labor and of the mothering the cooking the nurturing it's all ties back into kind of like a gender construct of like it's it's kind of you know back and that's fine. I'm not saying that women um don't can't have these aspects you know I have you know nurturing aspects.
I be cooking sometimes like I'm not saying you know don't do that. Um but to me I just feel like when you um it goes back to the Tony cake bombara you know quote that I um mentioned earlier for my framework on bombaraism is that it's the rigidness. It's like it then kind of goes back to this rigid framing and and it doesn't really think about the diversity that we had in Africa of what a woman looks like before colonialism.
It still is talking about a specific type of woman pre-colonialism.
Um, and yeah, I just I don't think it centers black women because I just feel like if if if you don't have an also equal accountability or framework or anything for the male side to consider or and it's all about the things that women should be called to do. I just don't look at it as something that is liberatory for black women and I don't look at it as something that um, you know, talks about our specific interests. um getting to the larger issue u the larger goal of of cultural unity. Um so yeah uh it it's kind of race first politics which I get why a lot of people that are more on the cultural nationalist side would identify with it because it it's a lot of you know kind of race first um and yeah you know and like I said uh and then there's also an eraser of queer women. And I don't want to repeat um certain things, but yeah, to me, I feel like it's built around black male political comfort. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of men will jump to Africana womanism the second they hear about it because it it's a very com it's a it's a comfort thing. It's like, oh, my woman's supposed to be like, you know, in conversation and in in sync with me. And and I'm not saying that that can't be a final result, but it's like, how do we get there? So it's like when you jump to Africana womanism and you ignore the years of indoctrination we've received as a people, the indoctrination, abuse, everything. I just think it doesn't set up, you know, any a sort of framework to get to that place if that's where you want to go. Um, so that's my issue with it. Um, I was also called to look into Na Dove's contribution of African womenism. And I I honestly I like African womenism. And I mean I know it was also brought um um from NA as like a a substitute for black feminism or radical black feminism but to me I think they can work simultaneously. I know that's not you know the ethics of the person that might have created the thought but I think they can work simultaneously. Some of the things that I like about it is that um you know it does dive into comedic principle. It talks about balance um and and and it grounds into like a lot of the cosmetology which is you know a lot of you know it's spiritual woowoo but I think you know it it still is cool. I like this stuff. I got my crystal right here. So I was like okay you know if we want to look at it from a spiritual p perspective and a political perspective and tie and see how it can connect to African spirituality the political perspective. I think that that's pretty cool because it ties into culture. I think that's another thing I appreciate is that she did talk about creating an actual culture that isn't the same, you know, dominant white hegemonic supremacy that we've been indoctrinated with. Um, so like I said, so it expands upon what Hudson Wilms laid out. Um, it gives a little bit more context. it it does call upon I think because one one thing that I will say when I was reading on it and no I didn't have the time to read any of her like individual books but you know I just kind of quickly researched and then I also watched two lectures that Naub did about this one thing I'll say I caught in the lectures that I think I wish there was because I don't even know if people that say this even understand that this is something that she emphasizes in her lectures but she centers mother and nurturing and womenhood but she doesn't say that gender specific. Um, and she doesn't say but but Maat doesn't necessarily have like a you know because they were say I was say it says right here you know it's like it's still not really a place for queer women because it still is talking about black me men and women balancing with each other but what I I will give her credit for is that she said the nurturing nature the nurturing mothering is not just a thing from women who have children that every woman in the community is a mother or hold some sort of responsibility of care and nurturing for the community for the people But she also said men she said in in I promise you she said in a um in a uh I I'm saying interview but in a speech um that she a lecture sorry in a lecture that she did she said men um can also invoke this nurturing mother spirit that when you center that you have it as a man too and that that is something that I feel like you know um people miss when it comes to like maad and like getting back into African spiritual systems. Um, so I thought that that was pretty cool. But like I said, I still think this without actual frameworks of radical black feminism still kind of it's more of a deadline than it is a transitional um I feel like ideology. So that's why I still couldn't just be like I'm solely an African womanist because I I've seen firsthand I was a hotep for years. I've seen so many people talking about they want to practice ma um and [laughter] that and that they're you know wearing they while beating women's ass.
[laughter] So, you know, and I know I'm talking about personal experience, but I just think we can do our best to get to these things and say we're balancing and we're ma and the ank is life and that's what we're supposed to be a reflection of and all that beautiful stuff. But how do you get to the harmony? How do you get to the justice? How do you get to the truth and the order without any framework? and it's just like go back to this pre-colonial thing. Um, so, so that's, you know, my struggle with it. And so, yeah, so that's why I circle back to, you know, my theory of bombaraism where I think you can, you know, it can be a collaboration of of radical black feminist thought and just radical black women thought period because, like I said, a lot of people like to emphasize that certain um, women that are classified as of black feminist uh, didn't necessarily call themselves that.
Um, and I'm not even entirely sure if uh uh Tony K. Bombar referred to herself as a a feminist or not. Um, I think she a lot of her work falls under that category, but to me, I think, like I said, people still get so caught up in the names and and I I just it to me it's like it's the subject that we're avoiding. And I think we have to be honest with that. like a lot of the framing um whether it's femicide a lot of these things even the things that I'm laying out when I talk about bombaraism it's like if you don't want to talk about the convers have the conversation if the conversation makes you can automatically go to oh feminism it's white and you know and everything else gets thrown away from where it's like I I don't have to call myself a fe I could I could you know vow today to never call myself a feminist again in I would still care about the same things I care about. I would still make the same arguments around patriarchy that I make.
I can call myself a bombaraist for the rest of my life, but I'd still be pulling from black feminist thought.
Like it's, you know, and and I would pull from um African womanist thought and I would pull from women who didn't identify as such. Like, so I just think we get so, you know, we're very quick to throw that title on a woman to dismiss what she's talking about or um the points that are made. And I just think um it's irresponsible. Um but yeah, so I just think it's a combo, you know, what I'm looking for is a combination of of all of those things. We can have the cultural I'm a cultural worker, so I I like the, you know, I love the juju. I love the I love it all. So, and I'm trying to get back to that because I had to separate myself a lot from that because I know when I first got into, you know, African spirituality, even wearing a crystal, it was all from an indoctrinated point of capitalism, you know, I was heavily indoctrinated. So, even my spiritual approach, even though I said I practiced African spirituality, I I still was looking at it through capitalist lens. So, I had to step away because I'm like, I don't even know what to talk to my ancestors about other than, you know, how I'm going to get this money. And so, I had to step away from that, you know, and I'm not saying, you know, I understand like surv, you know, that's not the same thing, but you get what I'm saying. I was, it was very much of like my ancestors reward me through money. I'm not looking at um the rewards, you know, through mental strength to um do this work, to do radical work, to fight for liberation.
I'm not looking at any of those things.
I'm only looking at it through the euroentric framework that I was indoctrinated with. So I just think when we jump into these um these African- centered thought without having a process to decolonize, we end up repeating the same patterns but in African gar. I've seen it in lifetime.
I've done it many times myself. Um um yeah, and I'm saying there's some people that's already doing this work um that I'm going to look, you know, further into. Um and um yeah um I mean I don't, you know, have to, you know, harp too much on. I think y'all kind of get the point of where I was going. I did want to go into some bonus fun stuff because what I will say because I you know like I said I love the juju and I love I love all these things as well and I think it kind of brought me back to a place of like well how could I connect these things I think that's what na dove kind of challenged me to do with African womanism because I mean ma is cool but we also have the eur the eurora tradition of ea and I have always connected with the um goddess uh the orisha oya And I've always known OA to be a protector of women. Um, a lot of people I feel like in a lot of things from the books I've read of OYA, you know, if you look at what's in writing about what OA is and what she what she's what she's symbolic of, it's a very it's very feminist. Like it's never going to say that, but it's a very feminist um framing. And so I think um when we talk about trying to connect back to um pre-colonial thought, I think there's cool things about OYA that I think encourage me as a revolutionary where she's the goddess of the storms. Um, her relationship with Shango I think is something we can look at because it's not it's it is my aunt but you know it leaves room for her like for her to be the leader sometimes like it it leaves room for like just that diversity of like you know it's not always uh we balance each other out. I have this feminine energy and woos and he has this masculine and we balance you know sometimes it's hey I'm taking the lead.
Hey, I'm the storm and he's following suit. And I just think that fluidity is something um with us as African people that we've like abandoned or that becomes demonized, you know. Um and so I think yeah, that's a cool part about OYA that I I thought about when once I got into this is that she speaks for the radical black woman. She speaks for the warrior black woman, the black woman that doesn't fit into this dimsel feminine um box that, you know, society wants to put black women in. Um that you can be all these things and and you know, and still be centered in your African roots. And so I thought that that was cool. Um, one of the things that uh, yeah, like and I think that's the thing I think one of the biggest things and why I feel like it could connect to bombardism is because um, it's I feel like Oya is a symbol of of death as well. Like so she she governs death um, and she she does not fear it.
She presides over it. And I think that is the spirit of I think of of I think me and a lot of women like me of like we have to freaking kill these things that live within us. We have to kill this indoctrination of of of patriarchy, this indoctrination of misogyny, massage noir, of capitalism, all these things.
There has to be framework to kill these things off before a new system, a new thing can emerge. And so while like I said I feel like um African womenism can land in some sort of result. I think Oya's cosmology as a storm itself gives opportunity for it to be worked through and and torn down. It gives uh opportunity of accountability. It gives opportunity for us to look at uh relationships is not always the woman submitting to the man. Um and and even even that we've seen that so much within our um within our communities and a lot of people will argue well well a lot of the women are the leaders in the center and stuff but it's still been it still has been demonized. That's the thing. It still could be demonized or we a lot of us still hold the energy that that shouldn't be like my mama held it down in the house but that was wrong as opposed to like no like being like you know we honor that energy that warrior energy that um that a lot of us have. So yeah. So, I'll stop here. I know I went over time and I mean, but I'm comfortable going over time as a whole with this episode, but yeah. So, I um yeah, that kind of concludes. Yeah, I think there's nothing else. So, yeah.
>> All right. Um, so where do you where do you want to go next? Do you want to start with us maybe asking some questions or how how would you like the next uh transition to go?
Um, yeah, just I guess clarifying questions or or first thoughts and things. Um, >> yeah, I I got I got a clarifying question. U first I want to say good job. Um, thank you for putting that together. Um, did a really good job. Um, and yeah, I um I would love to see like a lot more, you know. I read I reads um she's an elder so she's not like a young person at all.
>> Yeah. Um, and I kind of remember the timing that she wrote it when she was arguing all those other things. So, I'll be interested to go into that more soon with you. But I kind of want you to kind of go back to a point you made and see if you can um because I I also watch uh the episode when I think you sh you told me about the episode and it and when you went to Dennis show and it was in the comments and kind of that back and forth y'all were having um and then in general I seen you know people's uh conversations within the last few weeks even my conversations. Um, so my question, black women, black women have been killed by their black partners um, at a horrible catastrophic rate even before whoever the the Russell lady coined the term femicide in 76.
Um, and in in this conversation, if you could uh kind of drive home the point that whether you accept this term or not, what I'm what I'm communicating to you is this thing, and I want you to hear this thing and do something about this thing that I'm telling you. Could does that make sense?
>> Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I think, yeah, you're exactly right. Um, before the term was created, it it was happening and it was always happening because of multiple things. It was never just a black men cook something up and decided to target black women. Um, so it's it's it's always been um political structure as to how we get into these situations and um yeah, whether you want to accept that terminology or not, I think we we should focus so much more on what is happening and how do we culturally transform the idea of roles and the culture around roles and gender that we create day to day. um whether it's within our homes, our churches, or our personal organizations, our friendship groups, whatever you're part of, I think men and women have to have a commitment to creating a culture that isn't so rigid on these eurosentric gender roles and ideas of what a man and woman has to be.
um because that is a part of it. Is it going to stop that from happening overall? I am never stating that. I I'm not naive enough to believe that. But I don't think that um I just think it's going to get harder and harder for us to come together.
You said, are you still there?
>> I'm still here.
>> Okay. I think um Sheree uh internet went out for a little bit, but yeah. Um I know uh she coming back, but anything that you want to share or [clears throat] >> um I mean, well, I mean, I commend her uh for putting it together. It's not easy by by no means in the time manner that she did it. So, I salute her.
Um, [clears throat] I mean I'm still it's a it was a lot to process um from feministicide to the different examples of um feminist thought, black feminist thought particular uh I mean like even the term black feminist thought if I'm not mistaken I think uh Patricia Hill Collins is the one coined that um and so >> hit me. They was trying to stop me.
[laughter] It was Yes. Try to get me. [laughter] They said, "Damn, you black woman." I don't know what that was, but I apologize.
>> No, I didn't mean to do that. I I actually I was trying to bring you back on. You was saying something >> and then when you came back on, I didn't know you was I didn't know you was talking. I mean, I didn't know you was going to be talking because I I was hearing him talking. Then I tried to mute you just now and I miss took you off.
>> Oh, okay. But yeah, I Yeah. Yeah, we was we was waiting for you to come back. Um, >> I'm sorry. So, I'm on my work computer, y'all. I don't switch computers. I'm lazy and it's probably not good because I don't Sometimes this computer just be having his moments, but um Yeah.
>> So, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, um I forgot exactly where I was, but all I was trying to say was that we cannot um we cannot um we cannot address these things as far as build the communities that we want to build organizationally if we don't interrogate um or have any sort of framework to interrogate these structures. and ex and and looking at these structures and how it plays out between men and women is just one part of it. It all impacts how men interact with other men. It all impacts, you know, male power within um these organizations and how it how that impacts other men. Um, and so I guess, yeah, I might have got a little lost in my thoughts, but I feel like that's what I'm trying to to say is that all of this, and that's what I was even talking to Yousef about, is like I feel like people don't I don't even know sometimes if people fully people are so used to like just hating or demonizing feminism.
And it's like people don't even sometimes I think take the time to think that like the reason why male abuse isn't taken seriously is a product of patriarchy and misogyny as well because it's looked at as like women are weaker, women are are weak and not powerful. So if one is hitting you, you shouldn't even acknowledge it as abuse or a real thing. Um because um you know, you should just be able to take it in a sense because you're a man. And so and and and that sort of thinking stops men from even, you know, realizing that they're abused, you know, and so it's not just to simply like when we empower women and and cancel out patriarchy, we empower all of us. We empower men to be like, "All right, you're not going to be smacking me. I'mma leave." Like that's not, you know, I can't just look at that as I'm the guy and I take that. We, you know, I It's so many and it's so many things like and like I and I say this because I think I had the funniest conversation years ago where like this guy was so hot. HE'S LIKE, "YOU Y'ALL WOMEN GET SO MAD. Y'all talk about all the stuff that y'all go through and the scrutiny y'all FACE FOR, BUT Y'ALL DON'T EVEN LIKE SHORT MEN. WHY Y'ALL SO MEAN TO SHORT MEN?" AND I was like, "The the idea of of not wanting short men [laughter] COMES FROM PATRIARCHY, TOO." The idea cuz if he's supposed to protect you and pro and provide, be all this stuff and be the defender of you. if you're look if that's your politic you're going to want the biggest tallest guy like but he he was like huh like what you cuz HE JUST COULDN'T REP HIS [laughter] OWN HE'S LIKE BUT NOW THIS IS WHAT WOMEN ARE AND LIKE AND THEY'RE PATRI THEY'RE THEY'RE SUPPORTING patriarchy too and so I just think you know the I just think the more we can just be open to these conversations before just being like uh you know like because a thing is still a thing and I think call me to Ray always um spoke so clearly about that when he talked about gravity would be gravity whether we called it gravity or not and so yeah so sorry um but yeah >> um uh good job uh putting this together in short short amount of time a lot of information to uh to to process um I mean you kind of like took us took us through through the galaxy and and stuff um I mean for me I'm still centered on the the origin of of this where it was born out of the the murdering of black women and um unfortunately we've seen this cross gener different generations and black people in general like I don't want like like black people we we get killed every day in some form of some fashion and particular uh for this this conversation uh lately it was being framed particular black men killing black women and was focus is framing saying like, well, no, let's let's rethink that. Is is this uh mental illness or is this just violence? And and this is where I was hearing it in my in my my sphere of the of the of the atmosphere, so to speak.
>> [snorts] >> And then you introduce this this conversation and [clears throat] and so like the term feminist I I still don't necess I get it but don't get it per se and um something still process but also thinking about Dr. Dr. Bobby E rightight where he said like we we can't continue to use white white theory to define black phenomena.
Uh is there is that could it be a starting point? Absolutely. But can it be absolute? You know, that's the quest.
That's the question mark. Um, and then as recently I said like even not only black phenomenon but but all mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar mar marginalized people using those but then also know Dr. Bobby Aight introduced the word menide and where which means the deliberate destruction of a group of people's mind which contributes to how we function with and within our communities as oppressed as oppressed people. Um, like you talked about culture like you said some for how you word like it's in the culture like for me I I cringe when I I hear the word culture because in and in in true reality we don't have a culture like we like people say hip-hop is our culture like if hip-hop is our culture then we're doomed in my my opinion.
>> Um and then this this uh dichconomy between African and black. I think they're they're interchangeable, but also they don't necessarily mean the same thing either in the sense of black is a political expression of our social and political development, not only here in America, but in the diaspora and even to some degree in Africa, you know, that we identifying as black as a result of um challenging white hijgemony to some degree. and then Africa or African is could be the culture but as you laid out like most of us are trying to go back to pre-Africa which can never absolutely happen. Um as you share you shared with me and Gei Dr. Dennis's um commentary, his his pieces, and one thing that he said that really stuck out to me like when we uphold white patriarchy in terms of criticizing and he was like uh we got to also talk about white m white matriarchy and when he said like damn that that he he is true because of like that both systems are are feeding off each other.
Um, and so like let me state loudly like when I hear feminism whether we know you agree or disagree like for me is fundamentally recognizing that women in general in this society are fucked over are exploited in some form of some fashion. So from that definition, my own mind, I can I rock I I rock with feminism just from that definition of of knowing that women get fucked over. Now the methodology of it or whatever I because you there's different ways of it. And I think starting from that that conversation allows us bring us back within the the the framework of moving that because so to your point like I went back went rewatched um Ida B. Wells the other day documentary. So it was her her her best friend who was who was Lynch.
>> Oh, okay. Gotcha. Yeah. I couldn't I was like, you brought up and I wrote it down. I was like, I need that story.
Thank you.
>> And her best friend is Lynch, which is which is a man. And then she begins to >> get on create this crusade. Mhm.
>> And you know, and I've said this publicly, like in and idol I we've always fought for each other, but for but because of how we interpret our struggle through the lens of or the experience of black men by default. We've always put black men to the forefront. We could debate that why and whatever. And but on the same token, quietly, we have done that for black women. not loudly. You know, when you think back historically, um there's never been a movement that was born to um organize around the raping of black women. Not loudly as the the West night, right? Quietly as probably was, but loudly it never merged to the surface.
But also, you know, like one of my professors told me when I was in school, like sometimes we can't take the days lesson and apply it to the past and change the past. That's the purpose of learning from the past because again the analysis that we have now is really about the new information that we have now. So again like even our show and where we at today know Gishi and I we started it and we're discussing like know we have two black men.
Hey, what what about we bring on someone else, you know, particularly a woman and this is how you get introduced into the show because for me thinking like the Black Panther Party, right? And most of the organizations founded by men and was they intentionally being sexist or race, misogynistic? Probably not. But by default, they was because again, you're not including the other part of our of our community. But I learned from that experience to want to make sure that this doesn't happen anything that I'm part of. So that's just like framing like and starting to process continue to process this the whole show and the whole conversation.
>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Um yeah. No, I I get what um Yousef is kind of pointing out when I think um we're talking about Yeah, there is a culture that we have that I don't really think is ours. And then I think sometimes um in this country and and I sometimes I think as a cultural worker I think like I said I do kind of look at as like my spiritual calling to like you know do my best to create a culture that cultivates change because I think you know that internal change within um certain people then can spear towards collective change um towards a a group of people the specific people I'm talking about is you know, is black people and you know, like I said, the way you describe black is, you know, I definitely align with. So, um, so yeah, so I think, like I said, when we come to culture, I think it's, you know, that work of trying to create a culture, um, that goes against the very culture that we've kind of been, you know, indoctrinated with. And even from that indoctrinated culture, we made our own culture that looked like our own, but still has a lot of [laughter] indoctrination of it. you know, you know, it still is very, you know, white in the bottom may look like, you know, this rap. It may look like Kendrick at the Super Bowl, but underneath it is all this other stuff. So, it's like, you know, so I think as a cultural worker, I think, you know, when I think about culture and its impact, I I have to think, you know, um practical, immediate because I know I may not ever be this, you know, as Jarabal says, you can't be rich, famous, and revolutionary, whatever. So, I may not ever be this big um star that everybody knows, but like within thea spaces that I am am in and the power that I do have, whether it be on YouTube, like how do I create this culture around these conversations and challenging these things within myself?
And it's not easy, you know? So, yeah.
>> So, I've been um doing my best to like really listen. Um, shout out to um you too, uh, Shereek. But about to say all of the African women that I've known how and they try to coach me into how I could show up differently. So, I've been trying to like like really listen to what people are saying and like because I know it like when you listen and while you listening, you're critiquing while you're listening, you're going to respond and you might not even be hearing everything, but you and so, but when you listen, you can be like, you can take time to actually like, okay, if you script down all the words and all of the concept and all the theories and all the whatever, like what what is what y what are they what are they And so I've been trying to do that and while doing that when watching I mean replaying our conversation um listening to how Dennis exchange you know me and Loric talk talk as well and then on top of that we know we in this circle we all know each other right you don't know Dennis but I like know Dennis like me and Dennis used to have struggles in Baltimore for like six seven years and you So they even claimed that they ran me out of Baltimore because you know I was giving them Jabari's book. I mean Jared's book and they was struggling with that book and they was mad. So like I know the dude and I know we have like difference of views.
I mean I remember being on the phone him arguing for like almost two hours over I can't remember the word coming out. I don't even remember. Um, so yeah, I'm like trying to listen to what everybody's saying and I really hear like multiple different conversations and I want to try to see if I can like share with you even even in Yousef's response just now. I feel like what you present, what you said, and what Yousef was responding to, they all have their like they exist somewhere, but some they they exist in separate spaces.
So, I'll give you another example. I like again I I didn't study like that, but I know we thought I knew we enough.
So when when I when I heard you make claim when I when I heard you said something about like uh African womanists don't center women >> and I'm like >> Africana Africana right and I'm like what how how could and I'm like thinking and I can and we can argue and we can go into the the book that you quoted. We can go to that book and like struggle through what you read what I read whatever.
None of that's gonna really matter if I can't say like, "Yo, there's a fucking problem with black men or black whoever killing black women." Like, it's a it's a it's a big enough problem for us to fucking do something or even to name it and say that was the fuck is happening.
Those are two different conversation.
One is about like theory and what this means or whatever. And the other one is like if you call it womanism, you call it this with it, whatever. Like, and when I bring this to you, are you going to say, "Yeah, I mean, that's that's a problem and stuff, but like that shit ain't like we ain't got time for that shit right now. We got to do some other shit." Like is that like so I feel like multiple people just having multiple different conversations and nobody I don't even know if we really hearing each other people arguing and there's a like because even even with even with like what I when I told you I responded I'm like well if you you tell me this like and and we all talk about the word and I was like well this me and my uncle and my like I'm just trying to figure out we're not having the same conversation at a time. Mhm.
>> So like, yeah, I I just wonder if there's is there if you have some some thought around that. Um, and again, even with the difference of conversations, sometimes we say something and I might read an assumption, right? So when you was talking, you said something like, "Oh, well men they jump they jump over to African womanism." And it's almost like a man is making a conscious uh effort to not be accountable so he pick up whole other ideologies or it's like that's kind of that's his learning journey. All of us have a a learning journey and >> remember when you was when you was limited was you intentionally trying to be limited.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, completely. I get that. It's like yeah, you jump into certain things and I guess you know the way I speak sometimes I mean I don't know. I think um and that's something that you know I think I have to work on because sometimes I I say like in my mind I think sometimes and and you know not to get too much in my neurody diverency but I just feel like sometimes I look at highlight things like even when like we talking about femicide I'm thinking black women killed and like my brain isn't sit with femicide and duh so sometimes even when I'm speaking like you know I'm I just I'm like some stuff is the because I'm thinking is like a filler word because I'm thinking of a larger thing, you know, or like like the so I'm saying jump, but it could be transition, it could be, you know, but what you're hearing is jump that sounds intentional, but I'm just like I'm trying to say people are going here from there and that is not good, you know, whether intentional, unintentional, you know, the way I first found out about, you know, African spirituality and and I just jumped into all of this stuff before even sitting with like, you know, indoctr think my personal indoctrination or in America or any of those things or any before addressing capitalism or any of those other things. I was like, well, this is this and I know about this now and y'all over there Christianity and I got this now. So, I know something and so, you know, so I I understand like it is all definitely a process. I just think like I said too it you know these conversations is so much too of like language you know that I think uh you know has to somewhat um be and then it's from you know men and women too like you know because I think I you know I hear trigger words you know as like you know and they're and sometimes they're not even as focused on that word but that it's like oh you said that it was you know but you were really just trying to get to this but like you know so that can you know it can be it can come up with conversations. So, I think yeah, I think it's like a constant, you know, commitment to, like I said, transformation was something that I was really sitting with when I stayed up super late reviewing this and was thinking about um, you know, the OYA part. I was like it's it's the transition and the transformation and you know all of these arguments I feel like kind of and misunderstandings happen when it's like you know conclusion is the thing and it's not like transformation you know and I think it's like you know and so I think like I said we hear things and we just automatically our mind you know not intentionally but it just goes into concl inclusion. We don't like how do you try? It's like kind of like when you're first trying to talk to somebody about black capitalism and they're like deeply offended when you start to tell them like black people ain't got no money. Black people poor.
And they're like WELL WAIT NO THIS BLACK PERSON GOT MONEY. THIS BLACK LIKE WHAT YOU MEAN? THEY START TO BE LIKE you know like cuz they think you're downing them or downing the race by being like we don't have no real money or whatever like you know and they automatically kind of go into that before it's even like cuz they they take it as a conclusion of you're by saying I don't have any money. you're saying that like I'm, you know, not working hard or inherently, you know, not measuring up or it it just becomes all these other things where there's not like a pause of like just sit with that. Sit with you don't own the means of production. Sit like, you get what I'm saying? But I understand because when I first hear it's like, well, dang, they trying to put us down. I know some people that got a this nice job and got you get what I'm saying? But so it's it's similar to that, you know?
>> Yeah. I know. I'll let Yousef go. I think even so even to that point right so let's give let's give it that point and then and it's it's ironic right so you you talked about the B the buying power argument that's the argument again we had the we me Dennis Jabari brother brother he uh Jerry like the argument was uh aggressive right but the point right what what what we normally say is black people ain't got no money and then they be like they they they do their rebuttals. In the spirit of dialectical, we're not actually being dialectical when we say black people don't have any money.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And and not only is that, they responding to, "Nigga, I know black people got money. Like, yo, yo, just yo just dropped the bird and blah blah blah." And and they know black people got money because they got money and they got a big ass grant. They got they got a house. And so, >> yeah, >> they might can't do certain things with the money and there might be limitations, but you didn't say that.
You said black people got no money and that's what they responded to.
>> Yeah.
I agree. That's good. That's a good point, GI.
>> Well, picking back off that conversation, I'm glad you acknowledged the the lack of dialect that we that we approach our conversation with and what I interpret that is um we're talking to people when when we're interjecting uh and this is not an academic term when we're interjecting struggle language, revolutionary language, black national language does which does not translate to everyday black people. So this leads to the conflict. So I think even with this con the context of what you presented Shere and and overall is there's there's different levels of understanding that that we resist that which leads to a lot of the conflict um the triggering the gender wars etc. which prevents folks from um from sitting with things to be able to see because ultimately like you [clears throat] said at some point in the presentation that the ultimate goal is to be a better human being. like how like so so she cheer say like >> to create a new society you have to create new human beings >> and every new every new human being that we create is building the new society and think for so getting to the core as black folks new African people who are oppressed in this country as we as each household each block that we able to build the the ability to address those dynamics because again like you know when we talked off air like GI put the mirror and said, which I I had to remind myself, I learned gender gender oppression, gender dynamics at home. I didn't know that's what I was learning, but that's that's what I learned, right?
But even learning that and now my conscious understanding like the context to know black men who my mother dated came home know taking their their frustration out on her to your point wasn't personal. But who else do I take it out on? And and and not realizing because I see her weaker or whatever, she's she's it's there's there's a condition, right? And then to your point, there there's ultimately there's a response. And one of those response at one point my mother grabbed a shotgun and shot the shit out the motherfucker.
And fortunately enough, she didn't she getting get incarcerated. But like there there's that's the dichconomy on both sides. And I think like for me in this convers how do we put that in these two behaviors and they don't they shouldn't compete with each other because because ultimately um like to the term black you know I talked off air about black blackhood right to be my my best self I had to analyze myself in relationship to you and vice versa cuz ultimately to to to brother Dennis which I I adhere to a African way of thinking but to get to an African way of thinking I first had mother understand my African self to overstand your African self and seeing where we where we compliment each other and where the where is antagonistic but some of the antagonistic is not natural it's unnatural and we have not realized and examined the unnatural that contributes to what you what you've laid out the femicide and vice versa but it's all tied to our oppression and so some of us here but most of us don't even understand that we're oppressed to be even comprehend the conversation unfortunately So, back to that uh Bambara uh quote um about how she said the brothers have to but the brothers have to develop something and the sisters have to develop something on their way to the developing uh appropriate response to both of their conditions. Um so sometimes I feel like we're in the right rooms. However the conversations emerge, we're always that's just where the fuck we go. this how that's what's going to happen. We're going to struggle. We're going to get there. But then at the same time, I would say like sometimes we we just need better facilitators in in different rooms, right? So certain conversations need to be having in this room and other conversation happen in this room. So us as uh people are involved we especially let's say for instance if this was you're presenting how I could be as a comrade is um making sure the stuff that the stuff that I did after all the little conflict happened I could have had that brain on where I'm listening to people what they're saying and then for instance if you're presenting and somebody's getting off of the topic I can redirect this person and be like well this is at this is at the root right because again even as we think about African center which I the best example is this one Baba Amos Wilson who all of us love right and we always have this struggle in Baltimore with Jabari and all the rest of them we always had the struggle People know me as Larry Shaw. Oh, you need an African name. Or this person need an African name. No, you need to change.
You need real change your African name.
And everybody used to have all this talk around like we had an African and and Mama Mima Ani who I know personally and I'm like yes have an African sound concept. So I use utamawazo uh um utamar rojo aili right because it does give me a framework to like explain >> concepts or names >> huh >> what you just what you just named was those concepts or names >> those are those are concepts right so the uh is like the culture the the germinating seed I ain't going to go through all of them but they all have like concept and it's easy when I think about it it's easy to explain things in that way like all cultures do these things and you get to break down culture.
But no matter what uh happens with these names and whatever, Baba Amos after every lecture and he recorded on books and you can see the audio after every election. Some people cut it off. Somebody somebody cut it off or whatever. He let people ask him Q&A and somebody was kind of pushing him was like, "Well, you talk about all this other African shit. Why you ain't got your African name?"
He was like, "Well, I mean, intellectually I'm struggling with that.
I mean, I think I I mean, but like at the end of the day, like you can have African name, you don't have power. You can't do shit with African name. So, like I I mean, and there's going to be people who are getting more work done without an African name than you do with your African name and Mbuntu got an African name." Like, so it's like looking at the concrete thing.
I I I wonder if Sheree if you can share again we all in this big struggle that we're talking about and we all trying to develop frameworks so that we can analyze it and use those framework rights to go into practical skills and build organizations to achieve we all trying to do this so we said right in that thing we all trying to fight on things like this is more important I think we need to worry about the seeds and the you know eating seedless watermelons and shit I think and somebody saying, "Well, we need to take a look at this because black women adopt." Like, what is what is what is being said that you have heard? You just been saying this and people were starting conversations about something else or might be attacking you. Even if we can't explain femini fe uh feminide at at the beginning, what what what is what is being said about what's happening to black women and then your response to the president and now what are you going to do about it or or or what is there to argue about? Does that make sense?
And you muted.
>> Let me make sure I understand the question. Um, so you're saying what do I think is being said when black women bring up femicide and the like what do I think is the response that black women are responding to in a sense? Is that what you're saying? Um, >> so so there was this big response about it and and you was like you don't you don't really know the definition then you don't need to know the definition or whatever to know that you're bringing up this thing is happening. The thing is, black women are being fe uh uh femicide, >> right?
>> And you're bringing that to the person's attention because you want them to hair or do what?
>> And for some reason, they having a whole another conversation.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I mean, [clears throat] it's one of those things, right, where it's like I don't after hearing Dr. is like even for example hearing him speak like you know I don't think he's somebody that um you know is intentionally trying to do anything bad um but I think like I said I think there's a missing because there's I think when you have these different frameworks that that push back on the word feminism because it's like we need something African feminist that's we need something that's African and not feminist and it's a white word and you can't have that without its white roots.
Um I think um when you go there in instead of like identifying the problem or or or thinking about the issue first, you misunderstand.
Um, yeah, like you misunderstand what the person is even trying to get to because you're so used to like hearing that word as like a trigger or like or or associating it with somebody that is trying to specifically um uh I guess categorize a negative thing on because I think even that was brought up in one of his episodes of like it it's bringing a sweep to black men or it's making a general statement.
about black men um in a sense when it's like femicide is about black black femicide is about black women and so it's like there's nothing in there that is specifically like you get like it's like it is a framework that is about something that black women are experiencing and it's like a you it's the not even looking at it from that but automatically going to how does this make black men look and and I think or how does this impact black men?
That's, you know, like I said, that has been and like I said, it's not saying that anybody's intentionally doing this. I think it's a a gut reaction because you see the way that people are censoring, oh, black men this, black men that. You see that a lot. So, I I get that. I I hear a lot of negative things about black men, too. I hear negative things about black people, but like I said, it's like it's it's the missing of maybe us being more and that's why I took the time to try to be more dialectical um you know this episode because like I said when I brought up that example earlier of like you know you're literally just trying to be like yo look uh some black people have money but overall like we don't have money and but they like I said they're hearing it as something else because you're not taking the time to really dialectically explain to them um you know like like black people are under harm first. And I think it's like a centering of the harm as opposed to like then what does that mean? But that's a framing that black women have seen or lived with for like so long at the most liberal mainstream scale. like anything anytime a black man is in trouble. Even if it's a black man that doesn't give a f about the community, it's always our you know what a certain black woman has experienced is now painting a bad light on black people and black men by speaking like um they were talking about Anita Hill and a lot of the stuff that I was bringing up.
It's like and the the guy um what's what's his face that did this isn't even somebody that was anchoring for the black community. a similar thing with Bill Cosby. It's like people talk about the white way. He harmed black women, too. And I'm I'm bringing up popular figures, but it's like that is a constant I just feel like people don't know what it's like to to and and not and obviously like we have different experience, but to I think what black women are saying is that is that at any point, you know, throughout this journey, it's like having to constantly see that and like the amount of weight that it tells you as a black woman and shame that it puts in you as a black woman of like if I experience some sort of harm arm from somebody that looks like me, like I know it's going to automatically be perceived as me putting um me putting down the race, me putting down another black man, you know, and and and we always have to kind of vice with like that sort of fight. And so then when it's even and I think a lot of black women just are desiring like a a we see you, we acknowledge you, we can have this conversation, but it's like before it's even that it's you use this word, you didn't know this word, what what what is the root of this thing and you know and I think it's not um there just and like I said, we talk about care and I'm not going to say and say I'm not always this angel I'm not an angelic caring fairy person. I cuss niggas out and get upset, you know. So it's like I, you know, I criticize myself in this too. So I'm not saying that it's not within men and women to, you know, jump to like defense before like how do I approach this thing with care, but I just think um yeah, like I just think it's a lack of uh it's a hearing harm towards a particular thing and and and the intentional or unintentional jump to how does this now hurt harm me in my image that is just Yeah. It's just it's harmful and it puts black women in a very icky position of like, >> you know, Yeah. I don't know. And I'm [laughter] still I and I'm still working on how to talk about these things. I don't know if I got repetitive, but sorry if I did. Yeah, >> that's good. Yousef, uh, you got anything?
>> No, we about to wrap.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I got two points. Um, what you was talking about like the uh and it's actually um Dr. Amos Wilson, his book, Foss, what's it called? The falsification of >> the African conscience, right? You was kind of like I think u we we as oppressed people, we get it, we get into extremes.
Um and it's easy to do that. Like so they say like when you first when you first gain knowledge, you go through that rage, that mad stage. And you know, you look at Malcolm X, what what the beauty of him is is his continued growth, his continued evolution.
of outgrowing the Nation of Islam and begin to develop a nationalist re revolutionary perspective and but I think we don't look at particular New African people in America our social and political development is uniquely different and and wherever wherever we find African people is uniquely different to that to that uh demographic right and there was this article or this um I don't know if it was excerpt something that Alice Walker wrote and she's And it's like a it's a fictional piece and where uh this black woman and her her boyfriend comes tends the u barbecue and she's no longer Jane. He's no longer Joe. It's it's Abdullah and and and Queen Latifah, right? And and she's having a dialogue with her mother. And her mother like, "Okay, I can respect your name, but" and she like, "I don't have that white person name." Like, well, that white person name I named you Sue. No, Sue after your grandmother.
[snorts] But because we have not learned how to absorb our our lineage here, we we we we our struggle is still diluted because it's still intertwined with with white oppression. What makes us devalue who we are? But it's it's that is it's in that dichconomy, right, that we have to go back to to think we have to go back to traditional African names. And I'm not saying it's like we shouldn't. I think we should, but also there's an opportunity for something new. So like my middle name is Bunchie. It's not an African name by no means, but Bunchie Carter created a African experience on this continent that that's that's worth honoring, worth embracing. But also when you think about particular uh you kind of alluded to your your point Sheree in your presentation like when we try to become this this new human being we want the most diabolical the most incredible and scary name that's just going to when you hear my name it's going to make motherfuckers stop and they block they they but that's that patriarchal >> theme [clears throat] that we're we're we're trying to hold on to instead of having my name Quasi I'm born on Thursday.
>> Oh, that's dog in the motherfucking versus my name [snorts] Yousef. And I'm, you know, I'm like Hannibal. I'm I'm the re recarnation of Hannibal. I'm about to ride the elephants and and kill all white people. And that, you know, we're we're searching for this affirmation beyond just being our human selves. And that could lead to being doing some really some very dominant extreme beautiful things. And this this is the part of the process of still going through these type of conversations. You like how even I may not still struggle over what feminists are, but it doesn't doesn't dispute like the the the essence of your point is I mean I totally opposition of of the harm of black women, the harm of black people in general. And I think like you and Dr. Dennis, y'all got in the same room. Y you principally y'all agree on that >> that you both want to >> support and protect black people. And and this and I'm saying like and this is what Gishi always trying to reminds us of. This is the ideological struggle >> but it gets trapped into other things that we miss the ideological struggle and and they're healthy they're healthy discussion they can get intense you know the you know the hood shar can come out and all that [laughter] little know calling calling calling motherfuck idiots and little boys >> I feel like cuz you can't really curse on the stuff. I'm like, I said some other stuff, but then it wasn't showing up. So, I was like, >> for real, that's funny.
>> Then, you know, take u Dr. Dennis, what he said, man. I'mma take the heel route.
I was that was so funny hearing you say that. But, I mean, I just want to like frame that for us. like this this is a great conversation overall but I think there's ability to there's levels and I think you know just moving forward as we explore more topics the ability to break stuff down >> to to to and and the uh the dialectical aspect of academia revolutionary jargon and just basic terminology every day like having and I think that's the uniqueness of our show and what we're do what we're presenting we have the ability to intertwine all those verses where some folks are uh topheavy in one or the other.
>> Yeah. No, that it's so funny. I just because I was literally just having this conversation with my cousin a couple of weeks ago. Um he both of my cousins that are my age. All my cousins are older than me, but so he's older and um my cousins that are his sons um that are closer to my age, a little younger than me, they're you know Kari and Kofi. And he was talking about um how he just discovered like his name is Earl and he didn't realize that like his dad like his granddad is like cuz my granddad's name was Earl and then also his dad on his father's side he had just found out was Earl. He kind of was like dang I feel bad cuz like I was you know I was I didn't even give that thought and you know now there's no like no Earl or whatever to like give to that. He was like well he was like what was I think I was like you was thinking what's the hottest African [laughter] name I can give my son. He was like, "That's exactly what I was thinking." But I think, yeah, we don't take the time to um to think about that. Like even my name, Sheree Danielle, like I um now I have like meaning and stuff to it. And why I probably would keep it just to honor the fact that my parents named me after one of the most beautiful songs ever written. So, I'll probably always keep my name, but um but my last name, I go by my middle name because I just I thought my last name was hard to pronounce and it was so easy for me to toss it away. Like it's that like kind of indoctrination of like my last name is hard to pronounce. I want to be an actress. Danielle flows better. It's more marketable. So I'll keep it that way. And then my dad is just always like yeah your last name bites with anytime he look at anything like but but that's but your last I don't know. So it's just funny you know like when we talk about names and meaning and like intentionality. So I just thought you know all of that was was interesting um to add to that.
>> Yeah. So I and I I and I I only mention that because of again it goes back to the frameworks, right? And so I'm curious Sheree. Um and and again I know we rapping when you're having that conversations with people and you're going back for words and terminology and it's like yo I reject I reject that framing because I believe that thing mean like side and side is like genocide and then no well you talk about do you ever stop that and be like okay what I'm saying is black women are being murdered by their like do you ever go like concretely like that and Then in saying that then your your your question to them is because you're telling them this online you're telling them this maybe at your home or whatever you're telling them them this and then to do what?
Um yeah, call I mean like I said bombarism and that's why I feel like I want to struggle around that because it calls for like you know the action and the and it understands the limitations of the actions you know and and that's what I think with all of this we have to be honest about the framing and what we can do with all this indoctrinating in the society and the larger systems that we live in and what we have to actually build towards and like understanding the like I'm not asking you to black men to go out there and unitedly stand AND WE AND PATRIARCHY NOW ENDS AND HELD HANDS and stood up in front of the White House or whatever and it's like that's just not you know we not it's not no it's like you know I'm just exam I'm you know saying it starts with an examination of you know the family um organizational um church groups and the nature that we're um the nature around us that we're that we do have some level of control over and um and you know being able to openly say this even if you don't want to call it femic side or whatever. Even even the word is just like I it don't sound natural me saying that. Like I just you know we got to stop killing these black women. STOP KILLING HOES IF EVEN IF THAT'S WHERE YOU AT. NO, that's sorry. Even if THAT'S WHERE YOU AT. BUT JUST LIKE SOMETHING OF LIKE no it's not you know and I'm sorry y'all. I'm silly but uh you know hope people don't take that. But if I'm like stop you know just that that's where it starts at and that's what I'm getting to as far as my response. I don't know. I come from an emotional place and I'm a dramatic ass woman. So, I'm going to ALWAYS GO TO YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT MY LIFE AND WANT ME TO DIE. BUT I'm saying I'm, you know, I'm working on trying not to like go there. Last week I had a slip up, but you know, I'm trying to like, you know, not always go there and like go to Okay, I'm pretty sure, you know, try of like trying to give people the benefit of that. I think sometimes like I said for me I felt like I I was being attacked by like multiple people and then I'm always um I'm always uh take so I'm taking in me being attacked by the multiple people then I'm always seeing all these other conversations outside of people speaking to me of just like you know just feel feeling like you know that like cuz I feel that pain regardless of how liberal it is like I know what Meg the Stallion does shouldn't really affect me but I still feel that pain of like people are literally making fun of you know this women that already experience physical harm from a man um publicly are are you know laughing at or getting broken up with like no it's not my political framing but it's like I feel that I'm feeling the femicide and then I'm also seeing like so it's a collective feelings and so when you hear so then all of a sudden when it it feels like it comes towards you and it feels like it's kind of like unprecedented because it's just kind of like dang I still talked about a lot of it and very like good framing especially in framing that I thought was giving black men the benefit of the doubt where it's like cuz I see the reactionary stuff of like we need to leave them get rid of them all together.
It just kind of made me be like well dang here I was trying to balance things out and be like but even me trying to do that it's it felt like you know no you're too and it's like if I'm literally on a platform saying women contribute to it too. There's stuff that we slip up on, you know, culturally and that there's ways that we don't understand because patri and that was another thing. And I'm sorry, I know I'm going on, but I had to stop and sit with the fact that when I was thinking about how patriarchy conditionally benefits black men, I had to stop and think about how it conditionally benefits women, too. Because that is also when we're thinking about dialectically like no, patriarchy doesn't benefit women on a large scale, but it does have conditional benefits. And these conditional benefits are part of what keeps this culture alive. Because I think, you know, people can women can overlook the fact that they conditionally benefit from a system that is meant to harm them as well. Like it's meant to harm me, but I can still conditionally benefit from patriarchy, the idea of being protected, the idea of being, you know, taken care of financially, all this stuff. even if I'm not buying into that, I still, you know, have and other women still have the autonomy to benefit from this specific system and that can stop and that can keep us in alignment of supporting things that in long term harm us. So, it's like so it's like the same it's like the same thing. So, I think um I'm sorry I just I don't went all off, but but I but I caught myself because I I'm saying that um I think I'm sitting with how I respond to these things in live time and I'm still working on I guess like being an empath and like even though I you know I I try to be you know radical and not get feed into like group think like it can still kind of these things can still like impact me when they're paired with certain types of harm. arms. So, I think with that, um, you have to you have to actually take the time to think about different the different like I like when I was responding to people, I was looking at everybody. I'm like, I'm responding for y'all that's making fun of that girl for no reason. I'm responding to y'all that do want us killed and I'm responding to y'all that might want some good, but you just not saying it the right way right now. So, I'm pissed off at you, too. So, it's like it just became one big thing. But um but I do think in hindsight you have to take back and be like okay there are differences here like you know like what you call it I don't think from what I know Dr. Dennis ain't out here talking about some free Tory Lanes type. So it's like there are differences but I don't know he might be if he is then you know then never mind. Like I say I didn't take it back for a reason but anyway um yeah so that's it.
>> I I done told you man once Jabari on this on this camera with with uh who was with him? Sundiata and and Ricardo.
Sundiata work at another barber shop.
And when they on this camera after they start to say they do their little their podcast, Dennis, I mean uh what up?
Jabari said them people over there bing bill and think tank think t think t think t think t think t think t think t think t think t think t think tank. They talking about they be studying and whatever but they don't know Fred Hampton was young. He died young. you know, Fred Hampton, Fred Hampton, he would have matured and he would have been uh uh uh he would have support what he's doing. He probably would have support black capitalism.
>> I mean, and then there and then there lies the issue where it's like you do there is this that thing of like where I'm still trying to measure where it's like you break down things um or you tend to have these like, you know, civil conversations and then yeah, some people are going to kind of still kind of be at a certain place. people may know a little bit more, but then like I said, it still goes back to like, well, if I can't even talk to you about capitalism and socialism because you think socialism and communism is white, like I know I probably have no chances of me like, you [laughter] know, talking about women's struggle and you like, you know, trying to categorize it with some sort of white thing, you know, like um as and like I said, and that's the thing where it gets down to because it's like is it and that's always the question where I don't know. I have to judge the person in lifetime. Is it because it's white or do you just not want to struggle around it? You know, and that's the question that you can't assume. But I do assume sometimes. But you have to kind of ask.
And sometimes you end up leaning a certain way where it's like, bro, like if it don't matter how black I try to lay this out for you, like you just want to be a capitalist. Like you get what I'm saying? Like >> that's [laughter] Listen, man. I appreciate y'all for staying staying in. Um, I think if you ask one of them brothers, like, listen, bro, do you want black women to die or not? Like, make up your mind and let's have a conversation. Uh, Madaya, anything y'all got before we wrap up?
>> No, I ain't got nothing. Good job, Sheree. Great job.
>> Thank you, y'all. I was nervous. Now I finally get to maybe rest because I ain't get no real sleep.
>> Take your ass to sleep.
>> Yeah. I'm like, I gotta I gotta get it together, y'all.
>> Yeah. But thank you guys for and thank you for you know allowing us. I know we were really trying to figure out what format we were going to do and what we but I'm glad you know we let this happen and you know and you know hopefully I look forward to the upcoming episodes and us you know having more detailed stuff you know the I think in the end all of it led to good. I'm sorry some people got to got called names and whatnot but it did end in you know good conversation you know. My bad.
>> Are you apologizing Dr. Dennis? Yeah.
I'm sorry for uh for calling you um the name Dr. Dennis.
>> The name Dr. Dennis.
>> I'm sorry. Um you're you're um >> that man I think he already said it and you know he you know Dennis wouldn't want no apology. He know like the man that's this his work. He work in the field of >> and doing stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
>> I think he appreciate it though. He appreciate the sentiments.
>> We appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. You know it just you know. Mhm. Yeah. I'm sorry.
I'm going just leave it there.
>> All right. Bet, man. Uh, great great show. Uh, look again. Look for the next one as well, man. You guys have a blessed, wonderful evening.
>> Yeah, man. Y peace.
>> Peace.
>> Only if you're WILLING TO FIGHT FOR IT.
>> I don't think that's how it work. Wait, I can't do it. I can't go. I can't go. I can't go.
Black Liberation Media is a collective of black and African organizers, journalists, academics, and media personalities serving black and African masses seeking to further grow in their understanding of themselves, their histories, and the African world through entertainment and news. Please continue to like, subscribe, [music] and donate to the channel so we can further serve you and liberate our people. You can also go to bliberberationmedia.org, [music] get some merchandise, and also become a Patreon member. and a member from the YouTube. Please do what [music] you can.
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