Debating Infant Baptism: Church of Christ vs. Eastern Orthodox

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]What comes to your mind if you're Paul and you hear circumcision? We're hearing it here.

[00:00:07]We agreed. The New Testament gives a sense in which these things are the same cuz they're not one-to-one. The New Testament will tell us how they're the same and how they're different. So, what would come to mind is what the New Testament says about how they're the same and how they're different. Does the Bible teach infant baptism particularly in Colossians 2? I would argue no. This is a clip from a full conversation that I had on infant baptism with Travis Byers of the Iconocorder. He's an ex-member of Churches of Christ. I'm in Churches of Churches of Christ. So, the conversation was very interesting. If you want the full version, it's on Patreon for as little as $5 a month or you can just watch the entire live stream. That link is in the description below as well. First, I'm going to show you some clarifications we made in the very beginning and then the Colossians 2 section itself. Let me know what you think about this conversation, who's right, who's wrong. What are your thoughts on this? How could you add to this conversation? Let me know. One thing I I I want to ask you, do we have agreement on this because I I agree with mo- like the vast majority of what you said about like the Old Testament salvation covenant stuff. I I pretty much agree with all of that, I think. Um just thinking about all of that in my head.

[00:01:11]Um I want to ask a couple clarifying questions here. Okay. Uh do we agree that like uh something like circumcision and baptism, they're obviously not one-to-one, right? The same thing.

[00:01:27]I mean, even on the most basic level, they're not one-to-one, the same thing.

[00:01:30]I mean, they're not you know, one's physical and one's spiritual. Right.

[00:01:34]Right. Okay.

[00:01:34]>> But but in terms of the meaning of it being covenant to covenant, entrance into the covenant, I would say it's one-to-one in in how one enters into a covenant. Well, yeah, I'll make it like even easier like in the sense of like um circumcision's males and then baptism's not just males. Like that That's what I mean. It's not one-to-one in terms of like what it is.

[00:01:54]Circumcision and baptism are two directly different actions, two different things that you do. And I really love that I'm under the new covenant not the old covenant because I much rather submit to being dunked in water than >> [laughter] >> than like circumcision at 99 years old.

[00:02:11]Yeah.

[00:02:12]Yeah, okay. So I good um so do we agree with this um that the New Testament does give the sense in which types are fulfilled?

[00:02:25]Yes. Like New Testament's like oh this is what that meant, right? You talked about shadows and then fulfillment of that.

[00:02:30]>> Uh so like we agreed in that like the sense in which an element of the Old Testament is connected with an element of the New Testament is dependent primarily upon what the New Testament says with the benefit of hindsight.

[00:02:46]Uh that was wordy. Like um whenever the New Testament's like oh this is just like that thing in the Old Testament.

[00:02:52]Mhm. It the way that they're connected is dependent upon what the New Testament says is the connection with the benefit of hindsight because they're not literally the same thing. Like shadows and fulfillments are not literally the same but like the way that they are the same is spoken by the New Testament.

[00:03:09]Yeah, like for example you have 12 apostles and you have 12 apostles and the reason you had 12 tribes was because there was going to be 12 apostles. It's really reversed in kind of how we think about it but because there were going to be 12 apostles there were 12 tribes.

[00:03:20]Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:20]>> Not one to one but it but it definitely is the the the image. Yeah, like the New Testament's like this is what that means or this is well this is in in that sense these things are connected, right? Um okay. So like yeah cuz like if the Old Testament mentions a flood and the New Testament says baptism is like that like that doesn't mean that baptism is via standing in a baptistery and having gallons poured on you until you're completely submerged. Like we wouldn't say every single aspect of that is now here like you have to literally slowly like rain on the person or something like that, right? Or [laughter] or something like that. Like we wouldn't say that. For sure. Yeah. Um That water water is there. Water is there. Eight souls are saved by water. Right. Like 1 Peter 3:20-21 says, "They're connected in as much as we are like saved from sin through the water, through the new life of Jesus, the resurrection, right?" Um Um that's generally the sense in which these things are um connected with one another in that passage at least. I know there's more to it that that you would argue, but like that's just an example of one way that the New Testament gives the sense in which these things are connected.

[00:04:26]Sure. If I could go back right in this moment, I would have mentioned the fact that for as little as $5 a month, you can support the channel on Patreon to get the extended version of this and every video that I do and other perks as well. I love you so much. Did we get to talk about Colossians 2 at all? No, we never did Colossians 2.

[00:04:41]>> Okay. Maybe this will help actually for the discontinuity thing here.

[00:04:44]Circumcision, right? What does that do?

[00:04:46]It's cutting off the flesh. "Circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ." Okay, so how you want to tell me and you kind of did I think a little bit, but I don't want to misrepresent you how you understood what this part means in terms of circumcision, physical circumcision.

[00:05:11]>> [snorts] >> Um and and now the fulfillment of spiritual circumcision. What is putting off the body of the sins of the flesh for you? I'll tell you what it is for me. Before we get there, we got to we got a lot to cover right there. That first 11, right?

[00:05:24]Sure. Yeah, this is 11. But So, you are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, right? Yeah. So, this isn't going to you priest, right? And it's really what Moses said in Deuteronomy 10:16.

[00:05:40]Remember what Deuteronomy what Moses told the the people in Deuteronomy 10:16? He told them to circumcise their hearts.

[00:05:46]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:48]So, even he's giving them a Yeah, he's giving them a preview. Like you're going to have to You have to circumcise your hearts. Yeah, there's stuff like this, like gird up the loins of your mind.

[00:05:56]Like there's that language of like a physical action, but you do it internally. Yeah. Yeah. So but who is circumcision for historically?

[00:06:04]Uh the the the Jews. Okay, but who specifically?

[00:06:08]If you say the Jews, who is it specifically for? Oh, males, yeah.

[00:06:11]Jewish males.

[00:06:12]>> Okay, at what age?

[00:06:13]Eight days. All right, so this is for infants. Circumcision is for infants.

[00:06:17]>> [laughter] >> There you see, you just admitted.

[00:06:20]Physical physical circumcision is for infants. Yes, the training wheels circumcision is for infants. I will love I mean it's for males, right? But um ideally it's for infants. But it's just for males in general. Again, 99 years old, right? We talked about that horrible horrible idea.

[00:06:35]In terms of like what that would feel like. Okay. Okay. By putting off of the body of flesh by what?

[00:06:41]>> Sins of the flesh. Sins of the flesh. By the circumcision of Christ. Yes. Sins of the flesh. By what?

[00:06:47]Uh the circumcision of Christ, yeah.

[00:06:48]Okay, so what is the circumcision of Christ?

[00:06:51]I want to ask you that.

[00:06:52]>> tell me what you think about that.

[00:06:54]>> We know what it is because it says verse 12. Verse 12 tells us what it is.

[00:06:59]Yes, yes.

[00:07:00]We're buried with him in baptism, so he's correlating circumcision with baptism, right?

[00:07:06]And you were raised through the faith in the working of God.

[00:07:11]So that is either the sins of your flesh, which is pretty self-explanatory, right?

[00:07:18]>> [snorts] >> So when he says >> that or what?

[00:07:23]Do what? Uh you said it's either the sins of your flesh, which is self-explanatory, Or the result Or the Yeah, or the result of sins.

[00:07:34]Mhm, where do you get that idea from, I wonder, in this context?

[00:07:39]Okay, so we go back to that point we made at the very beginning, right?

[00:07:44]Adam introduced sin to the world, right?

[00:07:48]I said in this context, but This is in this context, hold on. Adam introduced sin to the world, right? I don't >> And because Adam introduced sin into the world, we all die.

[00:07:57]We're all guilty of that.

[00:07:59]Right?

[00:08:01]I We're guilty of what?

[00:08:03]We're all guilty of we're all going to die. Not Not Not guilty of Adam's sin.

[00:08:06]Like we're not We're not Roman Catholics.

[00:08:09]I've never heard someone say guilty of dying.

[00:08:11]>> Maybe Maybe guilt isn't the right word.

[00:08:12]We're all going to die because of it.

[00:08:14]Yeah, we're all like subject to death.

[00:08:15]>> Maybe Maybe guilt isn't the right word, but we're all going to die because of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:20]So, we're all under that curse. Infant to adult.

[00:08:24]>> [clears throat] >> Separation from the garden, tree of life, we die.

[00:08:28]So, there is a need to be reconnected back to life, right?

[00:08:37]So, we're putting off this flesh so that we can get the life.

[00:08:44]>> [snorts] >> Cuz you're born to Adam, right?

[00:08:46]Would you Would you agree to that?

[00:08:47]You're doing this thing again, man. I asked you to show me in the context I'm showing you. I'm I'm asking you to give me responses back. I don't want I don't want it to just be me answering questions like this.

[00:08:58]>> You're doing the Calvin Well, see, I asked you one question about one phrase, and then you started off by saying, "Well, let me give you a list of questions before I tell you anything."

[00:09:06]>> But No, I'm These questions go along with it. So, Adam >> right now like the like the the thing that like I have a problem when like a Calvinist do this to me, where like I'll ask them about it like a baptism passage, which this is, and then they'll be like, "Well, let me tell you about Romans 4."

[00:09:21]And they'll be like, "You You really like every baptism passage is wrong because Romans 4 is right" or something like that. Like you >> is literally in context. Let me Let me tell you context here like from my from my perspective, all right? Again, you're you're saying it's in context, but what you just gave me was not in this context. Like this is a baptism passage.

[00:09:40]Here we have a passage where it says baptism circumcision fulfillment right if if you want to if you again yeah that's what this passage is saying okay.

[00:09:49]Circumcision cuts off sinful flesh.

[00:09:53]So here's a simple here's a simple here's an simple Sinful flesh Marco is not clip it.

[00:09:59]>> [laughter] >> Like right like putting off the body of the sins of the flesh right so it's not like literal sinful flesh. Like this is something I said when I was talking to abandoned father Ronald like I don't think that God hates the sin that he created in that piece of the skin that he created in that piece of skin is going to hell right as gross as that sounds that's not that's not what this passage is putting forth. It's talking about the sins of the flesh here in the circumcision of Christ.

[00:10:26]If infants don't have any sins of the flesh So then there I would argue there's no need for the circumcision. Not to mention the fact that when you read this later that this is done in faith and so therefore baptism is like circumcision in that sense but it is also different in other senses. It is no longer the cutting away the flesh and it is done now in this passage as an act of personal faith like and and there's also that's why I said let me tell you about the context here cuz the context is pretty critical to understanding this as well. Let me just finish reading the passage here.

[00:10:58]By the [snorts] circumcision of Christ buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised with him through faith you Right the Colossians their letter were also raised with him through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead.

[00:11:14]And you being dead in your your trespasses you Right there is no indication here that this is just the the consequence of sin.

[00:11:23]This is your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh he has made alive together with him having forgiven you all trespasses right Your trespasses in this context.

[00:11:35]And then you go back to chapter 1.

[00:11:38]Verses 3 through 8, he will talk about their their their their beginning, let's say. We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ praying always for you since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints. This is their Christian life that they're living because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven of which you heard before, heard John 6:44-45. Here's Here's that same uh I concept here in the word of the truth of the gospel. Look at that, the word of the truth of the gospel.

[00:12:05]Hearing the gospel, the word of the truth of the gospel which has come to you as it has also in all the world and is bringing forth fruit as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth.

[00:12:20]As you also learn from Epaphras, you learn this from Epaphras, a teacher, Jeremiah 31:34, our dear fellow servant who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf who also declared to us your love in the spirit. This is my argument.

[00:12:33]There is zero zero indication of anything like infant baptism here from what he said. Remember we talked about this in the beginning.

[00:12:41]Baptism is like this. There is zero indication of the elements of infant baptism in this uh description here based off of his own explication of how baptism is like circumcision.

[00:13:00]Am I lagging here?

[00:13:02]Nope, you're still there. Okay, cool.

[00:13:05]And scene.

[00:13:11]Oh. I feel like we I feel like we're going to disagree. Like it is in it is in the idea of circumcision.

[00:13:19]Before right now, let's again, rewind. Before the Great Schism, before the Restoration, before the reformation, before everything.

[00:13:29]If you are a man reading this in Israel and you read the word circumcision, what comes to your mind?

[00:13:39]Okay.

[00:13:40]We talked about >> context, in context, what comes to your mind if you read circumcision. You're just talking about circumcision. You're a Jewish man, you've been Jewish your whole life, you've grown up under the covenant, you've grown up under the law of Moses, you understand Abraham, you know about all of that. What comes to your mind if you're Paul and you hear circumcision.

[00:14:02]We're hearing it here.

[00:14:04]We agreed. The New Testament gives a sense of which these things are the same cuz they're not one to one. The New Testament will tell us how they're the same and how they're different. So, what would come to mind is what the New Testament says about how they're the same and how they're different.

[00:14:17]Again, what what we saw here the the people who are who are in in verse number 13, right? Dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. So, just to be clear, the way that it's different >> would come to my mind. Just I want to be clear before you say what you're going to say. I'll let you say it, too. But, what would come to my mind is what the New Testament says about how these things are the same and how they're different.

[00:14:43]>> So, that was a clip from the conversation. If you want the extended version of the video, the link is in the description below for Patreon. For as little as $5 a month, you can support the channel and help the channel to run.

[00:14:52]It all costs money. Help it to grow. I love you so much. Like the video, subscribe to the channel, consider supporting there on Patreon. God bless you. Lord willing, I'll talk to you soon. Take care. Goodbye.

[00:15:03]>> [music]