Smart Money Just Abandoned Bitcoin Treasuries — Saylor Could Be Next.

[00:00:24]Jack Malers just threw in the towel on his Bitcoin treasury company 21. But he's not the only big name in the Treasury space that just called it quits. Meanwhile, the Clarity Act just got an overhaul that includes banning something that has already made Trump boatloads of money. Washington is quietly rebuilding global trade around neutral reserve assets. Gold is the name that they're saying out loud, but the description does seem to fit something else as well. And the White House is adding more fuel to the fire around banning local open AI models. Shocking numbers on gross doatic domestic income from the Coobei letter and a Bitcoin node implementation just managed to sync in 55 minutes. That's full initial block download and verification and it's not the one you think. So strap in, drop a like. I'm Ben with the BTC sessions.

[00:01:17]This is Bitcast.

[00:01:24]The issue is not red or blue. The issue is between the state and you.

[00:01:29]>> It can be a little bit of a warning sign.

[00:01:30]>> It gives you a tool to empower.

[00:01:33]>> That sounds like a utopia, my friend.

[00:01:35]>> It is. It's exactly a utopia.

[00:01:37]>> With Bitcoin, no one can take it from you.

[00:01:46]>> All right, gentlemen. Uh, I want to start off before we get into things with just a little bit of uh straight out of Malor's mouth uh in regards to him uh stepping down from 21. Uh this was just the other day. I'll speed it up a little bit. I'm not going to play the whole thing, but we'll hear uh a little bit of his reasoning and then uh we'll chat about it. Again, not the only one having trouble in the treasury space. Here we go.

[00:02:15]Hey everyone, I have decided to step down as the CEO of 21 Capital. I wanted to tell you that myself in my own words because you deserve to hear it from me directly. When I helped start 21, I thought we had an opportunity to build something very specific. Not only a company built on Bitcoin, not only a company built with Bitcoin on its balance sheet, but also a company with Bitcoin businesses producing cash flow built alongside of it. That was the vision that I believed in. That is still the vision that I believe in. However, over time, it became clear that the board and I did not agree on the path toward building for that vision. Not in bad faith, not because anyone was wrong.

[00:02:50]The people involved in 21 are immensely talented and committed to what they believe. But sometimes people can look at the same opportunity and arrive at different conclusions as to how to build it, and that's okay. But something had to change. And ultimately, I made the decision to step down as the CEO and exit myself from the business.

[00:03:07]>> So, I'll stop it there. Uh, but I did want to uh bring up this tweet uh from Simon Dixon. Uh, he's saying, "Uh, Jack met the financial industrial complex.

[00:03:19]The FIC wrapped Jack into a security. I explained publicly what that meant. Jack publicly disagreed with me. Now Jack has walked away from the FIC. Moore should do the same. Well done, Jack. Uh, Howard Lutnik, nice try. Um, uh, >> Lucky Lutick.

[00:03:37]>> Yeah. So, I'll get to I'll get to the other troubles in and around the Treasury space in a moment, but I just kind of want to get your guys' thoughts on uh on on Jack stepping down. Was this the right move? Um is it too little too late? Uh general, >> listen listen, he he's not telling he's not being completely honest in the statement number one, okay? The official release from 21 says that his board removed him. Okay? They don't phrase it quite that way, but that's how removing a CEO works. CEOs don't just resign.

[00:04:08]They disagree with the board and the board reigns supreme. He knows that if you work on a nonprofit board, you work on a corporate board, whatever. Like that's how CEOs are removed. They don't just leave. They are removed by their board. Number one. Number two. The other clip you should have played is him talking about how everyone should be buying 21. He's going down with the ship. He's going to be the CEO till the day he dies. Well, the stock's down what? 90% since it launched. I think something like that. 50% over the last little while. I am a a critic of Malers.

[00:04:37]I hope I hope that he gets back to what he does well, which is strike. He he did a great job with strike. It's a quality exchange and he's had a lot of quality I think ideas that maybe he just got carried away and stretched thin or whatever, but he couldn't quite deliver on dating back to the Miami conference, you know, years and years ago at this point. It's not something that anyone should necessarily hold against him, but it is time as a uh as a businessman now.

[00:05:03]He's in his early 30s, I believe. As a businessman now, it's not about long shots on stages and talking about Jeffrey Epstein's banker. There is a time for that. But when it comes to delivering on quality products and being the visionary that, to be honest, he has sold himself as over the last, you know, almost decade now, it's time to start showing up, man. Um, maybe he's getting married in a little while. He'll take some time off, I think, and and uh decide what's next for him. One other thing I will point out and uh I don't know what this means but if you look across the space at guys who are you know big public company players or big exchange players or you know guys who who are you know even in Jack's shoes I think he he may be a little bit of both if not quite the public company player but you know rubbing shoulders with Lutnik. The thing that I think you have to ask yourself if you want to know if Jack is as competent an operator as we all thought or think is why hasn't he been tapped for a bunch of other roles the same way a lot of these other guys have. Whether it's committee roles at the White House, whether it's roles in other businesses, whether it's policy positions or policy input, doesn't seem to get asked any of this stuff. And I don't know if that's because he's saying no. Could be. I you know I I was I'll speculate and say that that's probably not why. But we he does have to start delivering, I think. And I I know you guys may not feel the same, but I I I really do think that he's got some promise, but that promise so far has gone largely unfulfilled in my opinion.

[00:06:28]>> No, fair enough, Joey. I want to jump in there cuz I I hope I hope this is a sort of a new era of Jack. Almost a return to form, a return to the Jack of Years. I would be so so wonderful because one of the things that jumped out of me, one, he said like uh something along the lines of no one is wrong. [ __ ] The reason that you would have got let go from the board or that you left the board is because you thought they were wrong. you thought they were wrong, that you became a pain in their ass. And I hope I hope to God that was the case.

[00:06:51]The other thing I want to talk about, we always talk about, you know, maybe hitting that fizzy on fizzy on me appearance from time to time. I don't know about you guys, but that looked like a healthier jack to me. I've seen some interviews of him.

[00:07:01]>> What happened to Shredded? What happened to Shredded Jack at the NASCAR track with that Playboy Bunny or whatever?

[00:07:06]Like, where's that Jack? What happened to that back? And it looks like that guy's reemerging. He's got the wedding on the horizon. He's leaving Wall Street. He's taking that jersey off to steal an analogy that Bran would probably come up with. He's putting back on the Bitcoin jersey from the looks of things. He's going to focus on it. I hope that this is everything that I want it to be, which it might not be. That's him getting rid of all that [ __ ] and going back to the mission at large. I want to see Jack Malers with Jack Dorsey and Francis Polot on a beach in Costa Rica planning how to take down the stake state and end this fiat reign once and for all. He's such a firecracker and the steak. Enjoy a steak. He's such a firecracker and was a is a one actually was was a wonderful gem in the space. I think he lost his way. I'm hoping that this is almost like when we had um Jack Dorsey on Tim Pool and I felt like that was the beginning of his redemption arc getting away from what Twitter had become. Getting away from the Twitter board and all that [ __ ] I hope this is Jack unleashed that he's going to get married. He's going to knock up his beautiful wife. He's going to get shredded and he's gonna be out there just [ __ ] destroying the enemies of Bitcoin. Walker, your thoughts?

[00:08:09]I like Jack. I think the dude has good vibes just at a basic level. I also think like we all know, well maybe not all of us, you should know as the CEO of a publicly traded company, you're you're kind of handicapped like you cannot say what you think. You like this is Dorsy too. like look where people put their time and what their actions are because if they are the CEO of a publicly traded company now grant you know like you could say like oh well [ __ ] it like just do whatever you want but it's like well you can get rat [ __ ] for that kind of stuff like you you actually have to be careful as a publicly traded company CEO I think that probably you know Jack got in maybe didn't like the direction things were going at least that's what he said I'll take him at his word uh you you know it's it's really easy to nitpick stuff too. It's like it's really easy to nitpick the man in the arena. It's really easy to nitpick the guy who's actually out there doing stuff and it's it's a lot easier to sit in the sidelines, be the armchair quarterback and say, "Well, look, you you you said you were going to do this, but then it didn't work out." It's like, yeah, that's [ __ ] business, man.

[00:09:18]That's anyone who who has done any sort of business at any level knows that there are things you think are going to work out and they don't. And it [ __ ] sucks. But it's a learning experience every time. Jack's still young. Like he's he's I'm the youngest one here and he's younger than me. Like the dude's done a lot for his short years. I think he's been an incredible advocate for Bitcoin.

[00:09:40]>> He Why hasn't he been to Joy's point, why hasn't he been tapped for certain roles? Maybe it's because he calls the most powerful banker in the country uh you know a pedophiles banker. Like maybe that's why like you know like may maybe that could be a reason why he hasn't been tapped for certain roles because he's not PC enough, right? And I don't know, I like the guy. I get a good vibe from the guy. People may disagree. This is just like gut feeling. I think Jack Malers is good for Bitcoin. I think Strike's a cool company. I think that he's still very much early in his journey because he's very early in his life. Congratulations on him getting married. Uh, you know, a good woman can make a, you know, a good man great, I think, as well.

[00:10:19]>> Yep.

[00:10:20]>> You know, mine's still trying, uh, but, you know, one of these days. But I don't know. I I think this is a bullish development ultimately because Jack has been consistently one of the most like he's a fire brand guy that they'll actually put on national TV to talk to boomers like that that's a powerful thing like he's a he will go on a mainstream whatever cable TV news program and say Jeffrey Epstein's banker Jamie Diamond like no one else is doing that like he did that you You know what I mean? Nobody else does that cuz everybody else treads the line cuz nobody else wants to close the doors.

[00:10:58]Nobody else wants to be the one that's like, "Oh, I, you know, I don't want to be too too, you know, aggressive because I want to, you know, you never know what opportunities might arise later."

[00:11:06]Somebody who has already made a lot of money has a lot more optionality and can speak more freely than somebody who has not. I don't know. I'm bullish on Jack.

[00:11:15]>> Where do you come down?

[00:11:16]>> He him and the Lutnik relationship Walker is a troubling thing to me. For him to go around saying like Epstein's banker, love the fire. You're right. he is a fire brand, but then he's like he's doing business with, you know, another guy, you know, maybe the most other noteworthy guy in those emails or whatever. Like they're visiting each other for lunch on the island. Like that's a that's the thing, you know, if Bitcoiners spent more time thinking about, you know, like maybe not thinking about, but trying to hold to account some of the heroes instead of like fighting each other over BIP 110, okay, for example. Like I'm sure Jack I'm sure Jack would have an opinion on whether or not he should have been in business with Lutnik. And so I I want to know now, you know, when when we say return to old Jack, old Jack.

[00:11:58]>> Chicken too tasty.

[00:11:59]>> Yeah, maybe. Right. Chicken's too tasty.

[00:12:01]Yeah. So old Jack would get on stage, go to a conference, go to do his podcast, his mailbag. You don't think he's getting that question in his mailbag and and just ignoring it? Does he doesn't have to ignore it now? And I I hope you're right, Walker. And I I actually think that he's got I mean, he's got it in him. 100% he's got it in him. I want I want to see it back out. That's what I want to see. I think every every every human's got it in them, you know, like it's all inside it's it's inside of each man. Uh Walker, go ahead. You need you got to say something.

[00:12:29]>> A quick clarification.

[00:12:30]>> I just double checked. 21 went public on December 9th, 2025. Uh and uh let's see.

[00:12:37]Epstein files like the major dump was January 30th, 2026.

[00:12:42]>> Ah okay. So >> didn't know maybe. Is that the story?

[00:12:46]Yeah.

[00:12:47]>> Would have known less maybe. Yeah. Could have. No. No, no, we didn't. You know, how how could we have, right?

[00:12:52]>> So, like I'm just throwing that out there. Sorry to interrupt, Brandon, but like this stuff is important. Like, it is you can People forget dates. People forget when stuff happened. It's hard.

[00:13:01]Time moves weird in Bitcoin.

[00:13:03]>> They went public, which means all those discussions were happening >> over a year before that, right? And then they go public and then like a month later this stuff comes out.

[00:13:14]you know, >> could have been part of the reason. Love seeing that, you know, like >> definitely didn't.

[00:13:19]>> Yeah.

[00:13:20]>> Reputation, right? I mean, it's at the end of the day. This was I mean, I remember a couple years ago, I I know many Bitcoiners in the space, I'm sure many of the fellows on stage here, many people in the chat. I remember a couple like a year ago, I was on stage somewhere and someone said, "Don't you get sick of making content? Don't you get sick of doing this stuff?" And I said, "The only thing that drives me is getting to the gate someday and and the good Lord saying to me, hey, you had something on your mind. You had freedom.

[00:13:40]You had it right there and you didn't share it with other people. I gave you this gift. I gave you this and you didn't share it with other people.

[00:13:45]That's the only thing that keeps me going. Otherwise, I'd be in a field. I'd be in a farm somewhere. Uh, you know, pissing away all of you guys, you know, all the chat, everyone. I wouldn't be around. That's the only thing that drives me. And so, it's it's good to see that Jack maybe is is back on that chain as well. You know, where are the products at the end of the day? Where where's we talked about this strategy with all these companies? We I know Lynn, we're going to talk about Mark Moss, all this stuff. Where the hell are the products? You know, where are the services? Where is all this? you know, running a treasury strategy, great.

[00:14:13]You're timing the market at the end of the day. You're you're banking on that.

[00:14:15]I I get it from a Bitcoiner perspective.

[00:14:17]I understand you have conviction. Uh that's wonderful. But where does the rubber meet the road? We need more tea.

[00:14:22]At the end of the day, we joke about this stuff. We haha he. We need more [ __ ] tea, you know? It's just [ __ ] Like, where where's mlair out here memeing the [ __ ] out of people and and bending them over backwards, you know? But the chicken too tasty. The fiat too tasty at the end of the day.

[00:14:35]And this is when you're in the fiat game and you you are started from a good perspective, but the fiat is there and you think you keep rationalizing. We're rationalizing creatures. I am just as much as the next guy. We rationalize to oursel this is a good I'm going the right way. I'm doing it for the right reason. And I think there's a lot of people in Bitcoin that have have conf they've conflated things and they've persuaded themselves and rationalized that they are on the the right side of of history at the end of the day. and and the the chicken is too the chicken's too tasty and and and that that'll be seen. Now, I I said to the boys in the back chat again, I'll I'll I'll take the other side that, you know, hey, I would love at this point, I'm not going to lie, I would love to see Bit 110 succeed just to see the crash outs from most of society, just to see just to see Sailor crash out. I I would love I would love it. I mean, at this point, at this point in Bitcoin, I would love to see the biggest players getting in and saying, "I'm I'm against it." I would love to see that. That would be the most Bitcoiner thing there is. Not necessarily the BIP the BIP or not. It would just be are the biggest people gonna put their foot in their mouth.

[00:15:38]That to me would be >> max energy. Yeah.

[00:15:41]>> It is because this is the thing at the end of the day look like >> people don't Here's the thing. It goes back to there were 70 people at Lexington Green. 70 men that said [ __ ] you British. You're not going to come take our [ __ ] 70 people. 70 out of three million people. That's it. And so that to me is what's interesting. Not like, oh, what is consensus or like what is what is more most of society doing and the herd? Where's the herd going?

[00:16:05]That's not interesting to me. I want to know what the pricks are doing. I want to know what the badasses are doing. And I don't know which side that is necessarily. I'm not saying I do or I don't. That's what's interesting to me at the end of the day. And I' I've had extended family. I've had people tell me, "I don't want Bitcoin to succeed because I'm not going to buy. I'm not going to do it just because I don't want you to be rich. I don't want you to be wealthy." I mean, that's how that's how far out in left field people are. Like, this is it's going to take time. It's going to there's no amount of shortcuts.

[00:16:30]There's no amount of BIPS or protocols.

[00:16:32]There's no amount of Michael Sailors or or Lyn Alden Treasuring Companies or Jack Mers. There's no amount of this [ __ ] that's going to like silver bullet people into like, oh, we got 10% adoption in the world. Oh, we got 50% adoption. It's pain mixed with time.

[00:16:45]That is it. And that's that's the thing that to me is the most interesting of all this. We're not we're not going to force other people saying you can lead people to water, but you can't make them drink at the end of the day. So, uh we're we're on one, boys. Ben. Uh yeah, I mean so I'm gonna pile on a little bit here on the uh the sad treasury company train. Uh I just we we need to add a little bit uh here because uh they're not the uh the 21 uh and malers are not the only one having issues here. Uh last year um Mark Moss uh he was appointed as the chief Bitcoin strategist. Come on.

[00:17:27]>> Or Satsuma.

[00:17:28]>> Come on.

[00:17:29]>> Uh well, Satsuma shareholders approved Bitcoin liquidation. Uh they voted to sell the company's Bitcoin, return the cash to investors, and delist from the London Stock Exchange, ending their run as a Bitcoin treasury company after heavy losses. Now, this is of course coming uh the 21 news and Satsuma are coming uh at the same time that Lynn Alden is launching Orange Juice. And I've got to wonder how she's currently feeling about the timing of all this. Uh because it seems like all all the Treasury stuff is just like that the the excitement of the years prior is is gone. I don't think many people are, if any, are interested in this right now. And maybe she's going to be looking at it differently. But again with this with what I'm seeing in general trendwise uh you know not not so great. So I'm I'm curious uh one if you guys have any thoughts on the Satsuma thing. They didn't have that much corn but it was like 600 700.

[00:18:51]>> Oh yeah like 600. Yeah. I wish I just had like 600 corn sitting around the couch. Jesus.

[00:18:56]>> In in in the realm of uh sailor obviously uh nothing. Even in the realm of 21 nothing. But um but yeah, I'm I'm curious. Do you guys think that uh that it's this is done that this trend is this is this the equivalent of uh trying to launch an ICO in like 2018?

[00:19:19]>> I'd be curious to get Walker's thoughts on this, but even before you jump in there, walk, I just want to tag on to it. I was thinking about this today and I'd be interested your perspective.

[00:19:25]there almost seems like a an inbuilt self-destruction mechanism within a treasury company in the sense that you're trying to offer like a Bitcoin product. It has to be usually a little bit outside the Bitcoin space or at least a portion of the equity is going to be held by people outside the Bitcoin space. And I don't think like they it was the the stockholders voted to liquidate their Bitcoin now at 65 or whatever the [ __ ] we're sitting at right now at the bottom of a bare market. The only reason you're going to have the majority of people voting to do that is because the v voting majority has no idea about this [ __ ] And if they did, they probably wouldn't buy the equity.

[00:19:55]They would just buy the underlying asset. They would just buy the Bitcoin itself. So I feel like >> But the people, they are [ __ ] Basically, >> the people are [ __ ] And I feel like the Treasury holders more or less will always be more [ __ ] with regards to Bitcoin than this the Bitcoin holders.

[00:20:09]And so at some point in time, they're going to make a dumb decision like selling at the bottom of a bare market.

[00:20:13]But I don't know, maybe there's something else I'm missing. I think you may talk to Lynn today too, Walker. I'm curious your thoughts.

[00:20:18]>> I I just recorded with Lynn today. Uh, and so first of all, I think something that people like if you haven't looked into what OrangeJuice is doing, you can go to orangju.com.

[00:20:29]Yes, they got the domain orange juice.com. Uh, which is pretty badass, honestly. Uh, >> that probably cost at least a few coins.

[00:20:36]>> Well, I I know I know that it was paid for entirely by the founders capital um because they they were like, we're going to we're going to get this thing. But so first point is this is not a quote Bitcoin treasury company. They're not trying they have no plans to go public anytime soon. This isn't a rever you know a spa type deal where they're trying to raise a bunch of hype and then go public and then you know pump and dump. Basically they're trying to buy cash flowing and like you can listen to the episode when it comes out. Lynn will explain it better, but so apologies Lynn if I don't get this exactly right, but cash flowing AI resistant businesses like real brickandmortar type businesses, you know, like whether it's a and this could be it could be any vertical, right? But businesses that are uh going to be bought for low multiples, not have a ton of growth potential, but have high cash flow, they will divert a portion of that cash flow into buying Bitcoin for the holding company. They are not PE hacken slackers. They are trying to buy businesses that are profitable real businesses and then use the cash flow from those businesses to buy Bitcoin and create a treasury. The treasury itself is what creates the growth multiples because Bitcoin is going to go up forever. So, it's a fundamentally different play, I think.

[00:21:57]And I think it actually makes it way more sense than any of these pure play Bitcoin treasury companies that have no business, have no cash flow, have no nothing, and are just basically playing fiat games to be able to raise capital.

[00:22:10]Like to me, this is a I think it's a really smart move. If you believe that Bitcoin is going to be successful, which all of us do, most people in the chat do, unless you run BIP 110, uh then you believe that Bitcoin is going to go up and to the right forever in fiat terms because fiat's a terrible measuring stick. And you believe that every business will eventually hold Bitcoin on its balance sheet because it's the prudent thing to do to make sure your business stays solvent, right? Also, Orange Juice will be able to buy Bitcoin when Bitcoin is low instead of trying to just raise capital to buy Bitcoin when Bitcoin is low. They'll be able to buy Bitcoin with free cash flow. Like, this actually to me makes a ton more sense.

[00:22:52]Supporting brickandmortar businesses, or maybe they don't have brick and mortar, but they're at least real businesses that have cash flow and using that to buy Bitcoin. To me, that's a great value prop. It's also the exact same team from Ego Death Capital who supports like Bitcoin businesses as a venture capital fund. It's Jeff Booth, it's uh Andy Pit, uh Nico Luga, and a couple others that I'm probably forgetting, but like to me, I think this is super bullish. I think every business will eventually hold Bitcoin on its balance sheet because of course you will. It's the prudent thing to do. So to buy a bunch of those businesses that are profitable that are not trading at a 50x multiple but are trading at a couple, you know, couple times uh multiple and using the proceeds from that free cash flow to buy Bitcoin and use that as a consolidated treasury.

[00:23:41]I think that makes a heck of a lot of sense personally and I think it's fundamentally different from all of the Bitcoin treasury company plays that are out there right now.

[00:23:49]>> Yeah, I I think that and we've talked about this over time as well. um all not every treasure company is made equally.

[00:23:56]And if you have a profitable business and you're stuffing that into Bitcoin, the the excess or whatever, then yeah, that's great. And that's what we everyone talks about. Every business needs Bitcoin. Every family, every country, this is that's the way it should be at the end of the day. And this is what confuses me as an old real estate guy is how how more real estate people aren't doing this. how people aren't going down this road of, hey, I've got my cash flows for my business or whatever is going on. Then I'm putting it into Bitcoin and really leveraging this vertical leveraging of of the cash flows and the Bitcoin and then, you know, you can loan against it.

[00:24:25]You can do a lot of uh stuff that maybe the average person isn't doing, but again, someone like Lynn or there people out there that can that can do this. Um, you can raise money, the Burr strategy, if people are familiar with it in the in the real estate world, which is really since 1971, since the money really became debt, that is a strategy. That's the old Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, all this stuff. and his rich dad writes them right and he's in Vietnam and says hey uh the everything's changed in the world uh the dollar is no longer backed by anything and that's when everything does did change and it's a debt based society we're not in an equity based society anymore so everything changes until you get back into this world where it's based on equity so that to me is what's interesting um so hopefully hopefully you know Lynn's successful you know for her sake I mean you know it is what it is the treasury plays again the the Mark Mos stuff and all these things going on just based off Bitcoin again I get it when you're doing the the numbers and you're crunching the numbers of financial engineering. You're bombing the village to save the village, you know, hey, that's I'll leave that to Nolan Bower. I'll leave that to the other people who are going to say, "Hey, we need to do that to implode the system, you know, whatever." Uh, but to me, Lynn, if that's what they're doing and that's what it that it is, it's the bur strategy type of thing. That to me makes sense as a business owner and operator, that's what I would do. I would stuff cash flows into Bitcoin and then just kind of rinse and repeat.

[00:25:36]Joe, I want to get your thoughts on there, but I just want to also quickly add um when we're in a bull market, all those numbers pencil. Like every time I'm like, "Oh, I have a stupid idea during a bull market." It all seems like, okay, if this just continues for six more months and and ultimately Bitcoin always wipes you out. But Joe, your thoughts there quick.

[00:25:51]>> Look at Swan a couple years ago.

[00:25:53]>> I mean, they tried a lot of things.

[00:25:54]Yeah, they Yeah, I don't I don't love the idea, honestly. I I'll have to listen to what Lynn said on your show, Walker. I know you'll you will have asked good questions, too. So, I'm you know, I'm interested in hearing what what she says. My instincts tell me this is not going to work. And there's a couple reasons. I'll tell you the reasons I like it first. The reasons I like it is because are are because you know principally what you see especially in the United States and Canada are AI resistant businesses which by the way is just Lynn saying things that boomers built that they know how to do well that are not going to be conquered by AI.

[00:26:26]Everything probably short of prostitution, right? Plumbing, electricians, stuff like that. These guys are not going to get clotted out of business. The problem, the the first problem is that a lot of businesses, especially thosememes, fail when the founder leaves because running a plumbing business is not the same as running a Bitcoin treasury business. And so, you have to think about that angle first. I want to see them have a couple of successes. Now, that is a nice dubtail to my second concern. I think they raised like 40 million or 50 million. What was the number? Do you have the number? 40 or 50 million.

[00:26:59]>> Pull it up. That's like three pretty solid businesses. And I think part of her pitch was that they don't need outside capital. You do need outside capital unless you start to sell the Bitcoin you've accumulated, you sell the businesses, or you you find some other way to raise funds to buy more stuff, especially if >> Yeah. So like >> they're trying to buy 1 to10 million businesses. So they're so they're really punching down on the chain which is my third concern that I told you guys um you know in the back chat that those small businesses are just not sitting on big sums of money and so that the the melting iceberg thesis works really well for someone like Sailor someone like you know Steve uh um let's face Steve Balmer you know you know when he was running Microsoft or Tim Cook at Apple or whatever like like these guys have a ton of money and yeah if they don't find a way to grow an already like monolithic business the money bleeds out, there's an inflation problem, they buy short paper, they may not love the short paper or whatever. So, like that without having a big like a big treasury, I don't love taking the the treasury you have and putting a bunch of it into Bitcoin because let's face it, the same way that we talk a lot, you know, in our personal lives and and on podcasts and stuff about you don't buy Bitcoin with money you can't afford to lose, right?

[00:28:15]Because if you need that money sometime to do a repair on the business, you have a legal issue for example, especially in something like electric plumbing. I'm using these examples because they fit my I'll be honest, they fit my view on this, but I'm sure there are others that I'm not thinking about. You need that cash. And that's a difficult thing to kind of, you know, figure out. Um, and then the other problem is that there is like this kind of split, especially at that low level uh of business. And I I don't know what you guys think about this, but if the businesses are such good investments, why buy the Bitcoin?

[00:28:46]And if the Bitcoin outperforms, why buy the business? Like this is the problem.

[00:28:50]>> And why are they mutually exclusive?

[00:28:52]>> That's the whole point that they're not.

[00:28:54]>> It's not. It's not. No, no, hold on.

[00:28:56]This is this is really interesting because this this was I was going to say this to you guys earlier in the back chat and I was going to say this a minute ago and I didn't. Alex Hermoszi, right? Like a highle operator, right?

[00:29:04]Someone who is ingrained in business and he has the whole story of like why don't I just go into I'm trying to get into real estate. I'm trying to get into crypto. I'm all do. But I'm an unbelievable business operator. That to me is what's interesting. And Alex Herozi, maybe a Gary Vaynerchuk, someone who then dips their toes and says, "Hey, we need Bitcoin." Because they're such unbelievable business operators. They don't give a [ __ ] about the money they use. It could be the the LRA. It could be the peso. They don't care. They're like, "I'm so good at what I do." That's what's really interesting to me. And that's when it's like a the signpost in society when you have people like that or of that ilk that are like I can make cash flow no matter what because I'm the greatest salesman. That to me is what's interesting.

[00:29:43]>> Okay. That I think that I still think there's questions. I will I will you know I'll give you guys that. Maybe maybe they're not mutually exclusive, but I still think there's questions about the acquisition strategy that she has to deploy and about the outside capital. Um, you know, the the idea that the idea that you can get the businesses, too. Honestly, like, you know, it's like when you have a a house, right? Let's say you have a house and you don't want to stay in your house, right? You maybe you're going to you're planning on selling your house in 5 years or 10 years. You don't know what your house is worth and someone comes through and offers you a little more than you thought it was worth. What is the likelihood that you sell at that moment to that person? Is there isn't there a greater likelihood that if you start approaching these businesses that they realize they're sitting on something that has some value to what they deem to be like a a modern era investment group and they start thinking about you know no you don't think tell me why tell me why >> because you're you're missing the fact that this is like the largest like part of this huge wealth transfer that everybody talks about right now is all of the boomerowned businesses they need to do something with them.

[00:30:46]Boomers own the businesses right now that they've been developing, especially these sized businesses for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Agree with you.

[00:30:53]>> They've been developing these businesses.

[00:30:55]>> They either need to one pass them on to their heirs, but their heirs might not want them. They majored in underwater basket weaving at some libtard college and so they want to go be, you know, work for an NGO and make 300k a year on the taxpayers's dime, right? So like that's that's maybe not an option. They in many cases have had many of the same employees for decades. They don't necessarily want to have private equity come in and like hack and slash their hire all their people because they actually have loy like they actually you know people give boomers a lot of [ __ ] but boomer business owners have a lot of loyalty to the people that help them build their businesses. This is a fact.

[00:31:36]>> So all this is happening right now. Like there is a massive amount of businesses that people are trying to sell. Why?

[00:31:42]Because the boomers want liquidity. They want liquidity. And like I don't know I personally again I think it's a I think it's a smart move. And I think that if you ultimately like this is what I find funny about and Joy I'm not saying this about you just about Bitcoiners broadly is is like it's like well I I saw people in the chat being like this is paper Bitcoin. It's like bro they're not even going public. They're not going public anytime soon. This isn't paper Bitcoin.

[00:32:07]This is people getting companies onto a Bitcoin standard with a consolidated treasury. They've also got plans to basically help these like many of them are like mom and pop shops but they make a few mill a year to uh help them with the AI transition. And all of these businesses which are AI resistant i.e. people that do real [ __ ] are also paradoxically the most or uh the least you like the smallest users of AI in their business. So, there's a huge opportunity there to actually be able to optimize these businesses, whether that be with stupid things like, hey, making sure you get in front of the right people from an SEO perspective, right?

[00:32:47]Which is so much easier now, like for localizing your your marketing, right? I don't know. I think again it's a good thing for companies to have Bitcoin on their balance sheet. I think this model of again not going public right now guys trying to acquire businesses that are actually productive that do real things in the real world and bring them onto a Bitcoin standard. I don't know how you can look at that and think it's a bad thing. Now you can debate whether or not the investment thesis which I think is what you're doing Joey is is correct long term.

[00:33:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. But like ultimately buying cash flowing businesses that have a history a decade or two or three of proven cash flow and knowing that instead of being a Bitcoin treasury company pure play that folds during a bare market because nobody gives a [ __ ] you get to be the buyer in a bare market because you have the free cash flow and in a bull market you get to buy more businesses. To me that makes sense.

[00:33:46]Maybe I'm off base.

[00:33:47]>> We'll see. I I do an interview with you because I know that you you guys will have a good conversation. I'm going to definitely >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:53]>> I just want to quickly add in there cuz I think this is important too. Think about how much better like even this live stream is because the five of us are all here. Like the value that Walker and Joey and Brandon bring to the table to make this whole thing better. From a business standpoint, if you're a small or mediumsiz business, you're adding Jeff Booth and Lynn Alden. Also, Nico comes from private equity and Adam is a mechanical engineer. What's the value ad of just even having them come in take a look and offer some suggestions? Right.

[00:34:15]There's an intellectual workhorse that's being added to this business as well too that I think is important to look at.

[00:34:20]But that's been a lot. Ben, where are we at?

[00:34:22]>> Yeah. Uh, we're going to go to break really quick. I want to, uh, give hats off to, uh, the chat leaderboard. Uh, I should use eperox. Uh, dethroned BST.

[00:34:35]Lightning.

[00:34:36]>> Why is Joe get that guy out of the top leaderboard? What the hell?

[00:34:40]>> He's in there. I'll sneak him out. Just kidding.

[00:34:42]>> Yeah, he's in there. Uh but on the other side of the break uh again we're going to be chatting a little bit a number of things. Uh Clarity Act latest draft bans something that uh uh Trump has already made a ton of money off. Uh there's some really interesting numbers in and around uh the uh gross domestic income. uh as well as a pretty solid article uh from Zero Hedge about money printers fueling socialism's rise. Uh found that very interesting. Um and uh plenty more to touch on there, but uh we'll we'll just leave it at that. On the other side of the break as well, uh we'll find out uh even more how many buttons Walker can undo on his t-shirt. So uh stay tuned for that. And we will be back.

[00:35:36]in a second.

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[00:37:42]All right, gents. Uh we're back in. And I wanted to chat a little bit here about the Clarity Act. Uh namely the uh latest draft. Uh I found it funny uh what was included. Uh a very specific little piece here. Uh the long- aaited market structure bill would block officials and I have to highlight this and their spouses from issuing digital assets and shields non-custodial developers. Uh about the ethics ban expires in 2029 and enforcement rests solely with the DOJ. I wonder why they had to include and their spouses. Uh >> Walker, was that you? Did you get that put in there?

[00:38:27]>> I just Is anybody hanging on to any uh Melania coin here? No. No takers.

[00:38:34]>> Unfortunately. Uh I mean interesting here. Now I I just want to throw in uh one other thing uh in the realm of shitcoinery uh that uh hit the news uh today as well. Uh S&P they have just launched its first ever crypto index Bitcoin not included. Uh >> have fun staying poor.

[00:38:59]>> That's unbelievable.

[00:39:01]>> That's nuts. But but you know okay so the >> wrecked I guess is you know like >> yeah but so it holds 18 tokens led by ETH BNB Saul >> they got exchanged >> and and hyperlid okay so here's here's >> wow >> here's my take on this this is actually great because the market will have a perfect side by side of just Bitcoin versus this [ __ ] index Fair.

[00:39:31]>> Can you imagine what they will see moving forward? Put just to say like, you know, thousand entry point on the day this launches and then go forward yearbyear. Again, this is what the chart actually, you know what, Nathan, you should uh you should How zoomed out is that? I think >> that's five years right there.

[00:39:51]>> That's nice.

[00:39:52]>> Yeah, let's let's do 10. Show show me 10 because I I know it's up a bit. up 25% in 10 years.

[00:40:01]>> The tracker now, boys. The BTC sessions.

[00:40:04]You got to add this now. E this index versus Bitcoin. You're going have to add this as as going down over time.

[00:40:11]>> But this is this is the story. This is the story time and again. So, you get the this initial launch pump and it's all exciting and everybody's like, "This is going up way more than Bitcoin." And then you get the bare market and it it just gets decimated compared to Bitcoin.

[00:40:27]And then you flash forward to so that was a 2017 pump and then bull run comes along again in 2021 and it starts going up quite a bit and people once again think, oh, this thing's going to outpace Bitcoin. But then it never quite reaches the previous all-time high versus Bitcoin. In fact, oftentimes it's maybe half as much. And then you flash forward to the next bull run and it again the it basically shitcoins have a havinging versus Bitcoin every time. If you look at the Litecoin chart, it's crazy versus Bitcoin. It's it's the exact same thing.

[00:41:04]It's just like you you see this this you know parabolic rise initially and then just a volatile path moving forward from that initial early winnings uh to to owning less Bitcoin. And this index is going to be no different. It's going to be people just thinking that they're geniuser geniuses during the bull run because they see compared to Bitcoin it might go up a little bit faster than Yeah, this is it. And look at the flat line. Look at the flat line.

[00:41:37]>> So hard.

[00:41:38]>> It's the most sad one though. Like it's also the first like thing that I bought in like 2017 because I was like I can't afford a full Bitcoin. Like I can't do that. So I'll just buy a couple of these Litecoins. Well, you know, [ __ ] around and find out. Right. And boy, >> it's But it's so because there's still like two Litecoin guys out there who are like, "Oh boy, Litecoin >> the founder dumped his back in like 20 2019." Yeah, >> that was the best that was the best exit we've ever >> dude. It was Wasn't it 2017?

[00:42:10]It was after a peak. It was after he he like was the top at one point in time and just just liquidated everything and now people are still >> I don't know. Everyone's just out there gambling hoping something else will be the next Doge. The only reason you'd hold this crap is because you think like Melania is going to get another pump or Elon will talk about Litecoin at some point. There is no use case. There is no value going forward except for like far like flung hail Mary throw. You guys know that between 70 whatever maybe Brandon Walker you guys know between like 70 and 7475 the US basically like moved to classify classify sorry I got a princess sticker on my shorts here uh >> gold from a commod from a money to a commodity right something of that nature and people were insulted by that too right the gold bugs you got to think these guys spend all their time talking about gold is the only money you would have thought you know on on Bitcast circa 1975, you know, five guys, five gold guys get on the show and they're like, "This is crazy. Now we're going to have a nice, you know, thing to compare gold to as far as like whether or not we're money." Gold gold 15x like like maybe this is the okay, they're they're telling us Bitcoin is not this thing. That means it actually is this thing and we're going to see that it's definitely not the same as these other things that they're telling us are the things that we should be buying or looking at. some hope. There's always a silver lining. And you know, as much as I don't love to compare to gold all the time, there's some good good lines to draw between uh the gold rock and us, we've we've gone through some of the same struggles, you know, in the early days of uh adoption.

[00:43:45]>> Brandon, your thoughts?

[00:43:47]>> Yeah, I mean, this this is the um it's just it's the new world, right? I mean, gold and silver around for thousands of years, and that was the best we had. I mean, we we talked this before, too, with the the kings and the social media.

[00:43:57]But with all the ills of social media that you have, obviously the good that comes from humans being able to communicate and talk to each other around the world, you just you just didn't have that for thousands of years.

[00:44:05]The king could get away desperates, tyrants, dictators, prime ministers, president. You could get away with whatever. And no one could communicate.

[00:44:11]So how are you going to say, "Oh, hey, you're dealing with this over here and I I am too. Like what the hell what the hell is going on?" Now we have something different. And and I think the struggle is that we just this doesn't happen overnight. So I had tweeted something kind of paraphrasing the other day like again and I kind of mentioned in the first second there's no amount of shortcutting this process like there's no amount of Litecoin you can buy you can't you know un unless you're maybe you know some quant you're lynalden or you've got some high frequency trading algorithm and you're Warren Buffett you're on the inside and you own Moody's or something like that and you're like you're in the good old boys club maybe then you're the you're the cantillionaire next to the printer maybe then you can tell me hey Brandon I won after 50 years of suckling at the tea I won in the fiat system. Okay, you know, great. But that doesn't help the other eight billion people. And so, >> quickly, Brandon, was it you? I don't remember who I was listening to. It might have even been you at some point.

[00:45:02]Someone was talking about Warren Buffett and when the insider trading loss came into effect, his performance just basically tanked.

[00:45:08]>> It was on this show. I said it. Yeah.

[00:45:09]>> Was it you? I remember who the hell said that. Yeah.

[00:45:12]>> Yeah. Shocker, right? Who could have guessed? Yeah. He's not He's like not beating the index since that lock.

[00:45:16]>> He's not the oracle of Omaha. He's just the trader of Omaha.

[00:45:21]And it goes back to what we said in the first segment too in the sense of like rationalization like we and we all do it. We're all we're all susceptible to cognitive dissonance. We're all susceptible to the rationalization because that's who we are as human beings at the end of the day. So and and again we mentioned Nolan our good friend of the show Nolan of our earlier in the first segment too. He's he's the one that years ago said hey you know what Ethereum needs to grow to a thousand times the size so that way it can just completely implode Wall Street. Uh so you know again I'm a kind of a fan of that. I've got a little bit of accelerationist in me. I've got a little bit of the Ethereum. I've got I hold a special place in my heart for hey if Ethereum wants to go you know 10x,000x and get into Wall Street and Larry Frink wants to get in bed and all this stuff to implode it bomb the village to save the village then hey so be it. Touch a stove.

[00:46:02]>> Ben.

[00:46:04]>> Yeah. Uh J I I I'm gonna pivot a little bit here. I wanted to talk about uh uh this uh this post from the Coobei letter and then um an article >> blazing them a lot lately.

[00:46:18]>> Yeah. We are We are um >> you know it's the city of >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:24]>> Of course.

[00:46:24]>> At least it's not the city of London.

[00:46:26]>> Well, I was going to say we're the city of London >> we're getting.

[00:46:31]>> So, I I want to go through this thing about uh gross domestic income. So, a smaller piece of every US dollar earned in the economy is going to workers. The proportion proportion of wages and salaries in the US gross domestic income or GDI is down to 43% near the lowest since records began in 1929. Gross domestic income measures the total income earned across the economy including wages, corporate profits, and investment income. The metric has been a long-term in a long-term decline since peaking at 52% in the 40s. By comparison, between the 40s and the 60s, this percentage never fell below 48%. In other words, a larger proportion of economic income is now flowing to corporate profits and investment income rather than paying workers. The gap between corporate profits and labor income keeps widening. Now, this is a thing that and I'll bring up the next article in a moment. Uh but this is the thing that a lot of people they don't realize why this is happening. All they see is corporations making more money companies bad and that and that's just as deeply as they go. And so um there's this article on uh over on Zero Hedge called the money printers fueling socialism's rise. And so here in the article it says during the last three decades the national savings rate uh has essentially collapsed having fallen from 6.3% of GDP in 1997 to 0.5% of GDP in 2025. Between the same two dates however the net worth of US households blue line has soared from 4.6 uh times personal income to 6.5 times personal income. In economist jargon, the question would recur as follows. How in the world over a three decade period did the stock of wealth soar when the flows of savings virtually evaporated?

[00:48:33]Or in plain English, how did so many Americans get so damn rich while living high on the hog? And we do mean wealthy.

[00:48:42]According to the Fed's flow of funds data, household net worth erupted from 32 trillion in 97 to 169 trillion at present. These figures amount to an average of 320K per household in 97, which grew to an average of 1,250 uh or 1.25 billion per household uh million. No. Yeah, sorry. 1.25 million per household 28 years later. Needless to say, some substantial part of that gain is reflective in reflation in inflation. But even uh in constant 20-2 $25, average net worth per household has virtually doubled from about 630K to the affforementioned uh 1.25 mil. Um so when I chat about kind of this inability to save with people um in relation to inflation and companies being able to uh stock away more money again it's it it is downstream effect of the money printer and I I think of you know the last people to kind of get their hands on newly printed money are and to have any recourse course uh on adjusting to the state of newly printed money are the bluecollar workers, right?

[00:50:04]You're in a position where when you enter into a an employment contract, you make an agreement saying my time, an hour of my time based on my knowledge of what I can buy with a dollar is worth the following amount. However, that number is almost instantly reneged upon because the amount of money grows and so the purchasing power of your dollar dwindles and your understanding of what you can buy with your hourly wage dwindles more and more. And so it's up to you as the individual to then beg and plead with the employer whose job is to be as profitable as possible to beg for a pay increase to maintain your standard of living. The inverse is true in a system where the money is finite. You enter into an employment contract, your standard of living continues to go up at the same pay rate. Now, the employer is tasked with the idea of is this person with all of the advances of tech in technology and our ability to produce more with less work. Is this person still making enough uh or do I need to argue with them to decrease their wage knowing that if I try to do that, they may leave and I may need to sink more money into training replacement. It puts, I think, the power into the hands of the bluecollar worker and it tasks the company owner with figuring out that balance of do I need to reduce wages? Do I keep somebody where they are? And yeah, I I think it it tips the scales in in a better position. But this is this is the reality of it. Every company, they want to be as profitable as possible. it's in their best interest to leave wages be until there's a reason they need to raise them. Um, and that's a lot easier to do that when there's this hidden tax of uh declining um standard of living just because your money is is able to purchase less.

[00:52:08]Anyways, end of rant there. Uh, I'm curious about your guys take on this uh GDI and this article uh over on Zero Hedge about uh money printers fueling socialism's rise because people aren't looking deeper. So, uh maybe I'll go to uh Brandon first.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah.

[00:52:31]>> Oh, I just I just lost it. You guys hear me?

[00:52:34]>> We got you. You're golden. You're good.

[00:52:36]No, I was just I was all up in the chat, but uh getting getting on in there. So, yeah. No, I I I I think that that's 100%, Ben. It's it's it's this world where and that's why I was like I was bringing this up earlier too as thinking about Gary Vaynerchuk and and and Alex Ro just to extrapolate that a little bit more. You have a society whether it's like the the capitalist harder bro you know uh Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger where you have these guys where you can't see it because you're like well hey I'm good or it's the boomers like someone mentioned earlier I think it was walker somebody like you have this world where like they're they're passing down the wealth and these things are and you can't see it like it's very tough like well you're telling me my whole life was a lie and that's very hard for the average person to understand or like well I've got it pretty good or I've done pretty well for myself or Alexi or or Vaynerchuk who are in their 30s or 40s or 50s like well hey I can make money in any era because that good. I'm a unicorn or whatever. Um, and then you have the younger generation where it's it's fascinating because there's so many of them where the the answer is so easy that it's almost it's almost hard, right? Like wait, you're telling me it's that easy? Like there's only 70 men at the Lexington uh green that the shot heard around the world.

[00:53:37]There's only 70 of them or three million people. That's all it takes is to change a whole system. There's eight billion people. There's only a couple thousand maybe uh two, three, four, five thousand leaders in the world and there's eight billion of us. And it's that easy to just change a system. And it's it's that it's the rationalization of human beings and it's the the not being connected at the right times where we think it's much harder than it is and and it doesn't have to be this way. That's the why it's the wildest part. I think that's what Bitcoiner struggle with the most, right?

[00:54:01]And that's where that's where toxic Bitcoin maximalism comes from in a lot of respects where it's like it's that easy. The Satoshi I I don't have time to explain it to you because it's like if you're not if you're not going to help yourself, I can't help you. A lot of human beings don't want to help themselves at the end of the day. They want to rationalize everything. They want to misery loves company. They want to be in a world where they can be a victim. they can be in this place where people can just do things for them and they can just keep making excuses for themselves over and over again because like you said Ben I mean it's it really is it is that simple when in a deflationary world or I should say money is neutral that captures deflation and everyone gets uh wealthier it is that easy and it's actually very logical and it makes sense but when you're in a world where you are you're in the bucker you're in the frying pan or or the pot and you've been boiled your entire life and you know no different how how do you really see it other than just touching a stove and just truly getting burned or you're seeing the Canadian truckers, you know, you guys have lived it. Uh you've actually been it, it's very easy then for someone so to actually get it. But for someone who has privilege or or people around the world that have the the uh the megaphone, so to speak, where there's people in South America or Latin America or in Africa or people all over that don't have the megaphone, they don't have the bully pulpit, but they need it. They want it. The the Nigerians, the Ianra a few years ago just saying, "Yeah, f off." You know, 0.1% of the people said, "Yeah, I'll take your CBDC." They get it. But those people unfortunately, even though there's a ton of them, don't have the bully pulpit. But that changes over time. And this goes back to what we said earlier and you said many times. It's just pain mixed with time.

[00:55:28]>> Yep. Agreed. Walker, curious your thoughts there, buddy.

[00:55:31]>> Yeah, money printing is fundamentally communist.

[00:55:34]>> How do you feel about communists?

[00:55:37]>> Communist chat right now, which there must be. I see some boy, I'm sorry, guys. I was a little distracted during Ben's rant because I saw some >> just >> I'm sure they were well-intentioned takes on America so somebody positive were being thrown >> that America wasn't the greatest country in the world and then offered up New Zealand and Mexico and it's like how do you expect me to take it seriously bro like >> baiting water just baiting is the only Switzerland is the only first world country in the world you want to know why because their immigration policy look it up I'm not going to do it for you you'll be fascinated you will never become a citizen of Switzerland. Uh and that's why Switzerland is a great country. It's a fantastic country. They don't do the lame thing on their water bottles like the rest of the EU does.

[00:56:22]Anyway, uh printing money, uh centralized credit is fundamentally a communist idea. It was posited by Karl Marx as the fifth point in his 10 points in the communist manifesto where he talks about the fact that the centralization of credit is essential to instituting a communist state. Now, a lot of pe like people are like, "Oh, well, I don't know. Shut the [ __ ] up." I I guarantee I've read the Communist Manifesto more than you have. Why?

[00:56:46]Because I like to know the mind of my enemy. And communists are our enemies.

[00:56:49]Why are communists our enemies? Because they advocate for an ideology that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. 100 million people dead because of communism. On the low ball side, right? So, if you're in the chat, I assume that somebody who thinks New Zealand is better than America must be a communist. uh just because like how else you know but like you should really understand the fact that communism is probably the biggest threat that we face. Now the the thing is that like you can say oh well we you know America's fascist or whatever else. America's closer to socialism than it is to anything else right now. That's the reality. Like you look at the amount of our tax dollars that go towards welfare that go toward like that are literally just these entitlements. This is why Lyn Alden to brainer says nothing stops this train because you can't stop paying for the entitlements. It's like our military budget is tiny. We spend more like people are like well if we stopped spending on the military and we started spending on education we spend more on education you dumb [ __ ] Like read a book or don't I don't know to read a tweet and you can figure this out. This is not complicated stuff. So yes, does money printing lead to socialism? Of course. Because creating something out of nothing and promising people free [ __ ] How do you promise people free [ __ ] with money that was created out of nothing? That's what you do. This is what socialists do every time. And socialism is just a proxy for communism.

[00:58:10]It's a step along that path. You promise people free [ __ ] We're going to we're going to freeze the rents and we're the grocery store prices. They won't be able to gouge you anymore on their 1 to 2% margins that they have right now, you dumb [ __ ] idiot. Uh like I'm speaking about Elizabeth Warren here specifically. Um but as she flies in her private jet anyway.

[00:58:32]Socialism is bad because it leads to communism. Communism is bad because it leads to death. Money printing is bad because it creates a market distortion much like tariffs, much like subsidies, much like any sort of government intervention. It creates a distortion in the market that would otherwise not be there. It otherwise distorts the free market of people making subjective value judgments trillions and trillions of times during a day. Right? So yeah, does money printing lead to socialism?

[00:59:01]Absolutely. Because it's promising people something with something that's made out of nothing. And that's all socialism and communism are.

[00:59:09]>> Walker, to your point, Yeah. Walker, to your point about uh uh the the socialism and and uh its effects. Um one great example is as soon as the the government gets involved in anything, it gets worse. So let's look at at education.

[00:59:26]you know, use the example, oh, we need to spend more money on education. As soon as the department of education was established, uh the US uh used to generally rank near the top uh for high school and college graduation rates. However, uh since then, um they it's fallen off a cliff and like the the the reading levels of kids since the establishment of this have have just gone completely out the [ __ ] window. Like it the the state of education in in in the US as soon as the government got their hands on it, it's it's trash. Sorry. Go ahead, man.

[01:00:06]>> The highest spend on indivi on public school education, you can look at you can Google this. Again, I'm not going to do the work for you. Look at the cities that spend the most per student on education, right? And they're not actually spending on the student. They're spending on DEI administrators, right? Look at those cities. They're the lowest in terms of literacy rates in the country.

[01:00:28]Baltimore, Chicago, places like that.

[01:00:30]Maybe there are confounding factors. I don't know. But look at it. The data is very interesting. End of mini rant. The reading the reading thing is funny because uh there was a school of thought this like new reading literacy doctrine that came in the 90s. You guys who are Americans will have to remind me what it is. Uh Panel I think was the person who did it. And basically what they did was try to finesse the literacy numbers at the primary and you know maybe a little bit at the secondary level. Basically telling kids to guess what words were based on the words they saw. And they stopped teaching phonics for a long time. and uh crazy. You can look that up. It's I think it's Supanel who was one of them and then I can't remember who the other lady was, but like completely ridiculous. That's point number one. That's an aside.

[01:01:15]>> The the thing about the shallowing out or the hollowing out of the uh American worker is not unique to America. It's happening everywhere. And I think it's happening for two reasons. Okay. Number one is you have immigration problems everywhere in the modern world except for Switzerland where now American workers have to lower their expectation for that hour of work because they're competing against all of Moadishu for the for the labor you know stacking oranges at the local Publix where they didn't have to do that 10 years ago 15 years ago 20 years ago that it was in it was in the 60s that the US put together this you know idea that they would take professionals at the time from other non-European countries. Couple of significant points in that sentence.

[01:02:00]Okay, you can go back like Walker says, Google it yourself and find out why that's a problem. Uh and then the other thing that's noteworthy is that the the the slice of the pie as far as GDP, do you know what it doesn't account for, but it's another tax that we don't talk a lot about, and it's an interesting piece as to why this is all universal and happening in Canada, the US, European countries. It's health care costs being rerouted from people. And so whether that's your insurance, whether that's, you know, Walker, I saw you get into the pit a little while ago with somebody on insurance, whether it's in Canada, you're paying more and more for healthare through your taxes, that money never comes to you. And so you're you never see that. You are down that money.

[01:02:39]You are down all those costs. And meanwhile, like you're trying to compete with everyone on the planet for work.

[01:02:46]Now, it is a difficult situation for the the uh the average, you know, American Canadian. I I'll add this point. This doesn't even account for something like AI yet. When when you see something like um you know, here in Canada, we just had Tiff Mlam, our our central bank governor, say that the Canadian household is resilient as far as their spending. That is true, but only because the top 10% of households account for like 80% of household production. It's true. Pareto, right? So whe when we when we talk about whether or not households have money, um that's typically what you mean. Those people are making up for the sort of poorest households.

[01:03:21]If AI replaces 10% of knowledge work in Canada, I don't know what it's like in America, but if it replaces 10% of knowledge work in Canada, okay, and let's face it, that's probably a conservative estimate. That's like one in 10 lawyers, one in 10 social media people, one in 10 whatever, right? Our unemployment rate will drop to 10%.

[01:03:39]overnight and those people have no other skills. You know, it doesn't matter how good you did in school uh as a you know whether you have an MBA or you know BCOM or whatever you can't lay a beat and even if you could you got to compete with Javiar before you can go get that job in the factory. These things are around the corner and right now it's a mental exercise, right? It's sort of a an interesting thought that you can have with your friends over a couple of beers during the podcast, but it's coming to your front door inside of a decade. You know, no matter what your profession is, you are going to start to see this. And that's why when people say like have some money saved up, save in the hard assets, save in Bitcoin, say like this is why it's fun for now, the memes, but man, I'm telling you, next little while it ain't going to be that fun. You better be prepared for that.

[01:04:29]>> It's why you got to start a podcast >> 100%.

[01:04:32]>> We know the AI We know the AI podcast ain't replacing us. Okay, >> they're good. You know, I mean, I mean, based on some of the detractors, uh, everybody thinks that, uh, podcasters are absolutely rolling in. Curiously, also, Bitcoin Bitcoin podcasters during a bare market. I don't know where where some of these people think that money is coming from.

[01:04:55]>> I don't know. It's wild though. They think Yeah. Okay. We >> just walkers website.

[01:05:05]>> What are conversions like on this right now? Uh, I know cuz Amazon kicked me out of their program. So now, >> thanks a lot, capitalism.

[01:05:14]>> Thanks, Bezo.

[01:05:15]>> You son of a [ __ ] >> Perfect segue because on the other side of the break, we're going to be chatting about other Bitcoiners also be being booted from platforms, uh, commerce platforms. Uh, we've got a couple of them, uh, that have been screwed by Wise. Uh, so we're going to chat about that. Uh we're also going to chat about uh the other Jack Jack Dorsey's latest project that he's launching. Uh and I want to chat about uh this Bitcoin implementation that was able to sync a full Bitcoin node uh with full verification in 55 minutes. Pretty awesome. Uh so we're going to chat about that.

[01:05:58]>> [ __ ] off.

[01:05:59]>> Oh Jesus. Okay, before we go to break, uh once again, we're going to mention that uh we're looking at doing a Bitcast live potentially in the Rocket.

[01:06:11]>> 19 people, there's 500 people here every night. There's 19 of you guys who click the [ __ ] link. Give me a break.

[01:06:18]>> If you're curious about that, if you uh if it's something you'd maybe like to come to, give that a scan. Let us know if you're interested. Uh you don't have to drop an email. you can if you want updates, but otherwise you can just let us know if it's something that you'd like to show up to. Um, but uh yeah, give that a scan. Uh, give us your feedback.

[01:06:36]>> Tell them again. Free dinner, right?

[01:06:38]Free booze. I think you said that last like what are we talking about here?

[01:06:44]>> We're going to have a room full of the most degenerate plebs. The game plan is that essentially we're going to do the show live. So, you get to hang out with us, do the show live. At the second part, we're going to give you the mic.

[01:06:51]You get to interact directly with us live on the stream. And the third part is we're actually going to turn the cameras off so that you can take part in all the back chat conversations that we cannot do on stream with a pint, with a beer, with some snacks, going to have a good time. So, if you want to directly interact with us, if you want to see what the hell we say when we're not on camera, that's your opportunity to do it.

[01:07:09]>> I'm I'm going to let you guys know.

[01:07:12]>> We'll get some Oh, dude. If you need like the hockey helmets with the full cage, get the gloves.

[01:07:16]>> Yep. Th this thing, by the way, fully funded by uh Walker's affiliate links on that podcasting equipment.

[01:07:24]>> I thought Tether I thought Tether was guys.

[01:07:27]>> It goes right to Ben.

[01:07:29]>> Amazing. Amazing.

[01:07:32]>> All right, we'll be back in just a moment.

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[01:08:55]uh had people asking is that gonna is Bitcast Live going to be in Canada? Yes, it is in communist Canada, but just get out quickly afterwards.

[01:09:03]>> Will they let me in?

[01:09:05]>> A lot of things. I love Canadians, but Canada, >> they have a hard time letting me back.

[01:09:11]America always lets me in. Canada does not like me returning sometimes.

[01:09:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. The the the the biggest [ __ ] border guards I've gotten have been coming home. Uh, >> dude, your border guards are dicks. They were I once told a border guard in Canada chicken. He asked me if I had any or livestock in the car. I was like, "No, all my chickens got murdered by a raccoon." He was like 5'5. Um, and anyway, then he he made us wait and get searched and our entire car ripped apart for like an hour. So, thanks a lot.

[01:09:44]>> And I was telling the truth, raccoons and weasels collired to murder our chickens. So, Oh, dude. Wait, on on the stream that we'll do with the um with the guys who win the leaderboard when we set that up and get it happen, I'll tell you about how I've been uh deported and get harassed in search of the border every time and why.

[01:10:03]>> Uh before be quickly before I bring up this wise stuff, uh I just want uh Mark Fry 5867 to know that anytime anybody uh tells me to get rid of the yellow streak, I keep it for at least an additional year beyond what I would have. So, you know, love that. Thanks.

[01:10:20]You know, >> can you even really get rid of it? Like, you can't really >> Obviously not. Obviously not. I will die. I will die with this thing on my head.

[01:10:28]>> Amazing.

[01:10:28]>> It's forever.

[01:10:29]>> If your wife likes it, that's literally all that matters. We all know anyone who's married knows this to be true. And I like it, Ben.

[01:10:37]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, let's uh let's chat about this wise thing. Uh Peter McCormack here. Uh so wise tweeting uh after somebody uh was pissed about their account uh uh getting frozen for unrelated reasons. They had an account for seven years, blocked me out of my uh out of the blue a few days ago.

[01:10:56]Business account, no prior issues. I messaged support appealed. Uh no one bothers to reply for three plus days.

[01:11:02]Anyways, uh they they had some, you know, oh we sympathize. Sorry, it's going to take some time. Uh, Peter McCormick quoting them, "You literally closed my account without reason and have kept nearly 12,000 British pounds.

[01:11:16]You have not returned. You said it was because of Bitcoin, but I never used Wise to buy Bitcoin." It turned out it was because a Bitcoin company paid an invoice. You froze my account, froze my funds, and have not returned a VAT payment that was sent to you. Uh, they're not the he's not the only Bitcoiner that's uh been screwed by Wise. Uh Isabella uh also Isabella Santos uh who said operation chokepoint two uh chokepoint 2.0 was over. You can't open a business account with the name BTC or Bitcoin in it regardless of whether uh you use w your wise account to purchase Bitcoin. And she got these notifications uh we're closing your account and uh basically go pound sand.

[01:12:02]We're not going to help you. So you know uh such is life. I mean, it's it's still even difficult getting bank accounts as as Bitcoin businesses. Um, you know, all the more reason to uh try and be as much on a Bitcoin standard as possible.

[01:12:17]That's what we've tried to do with uh BTC mentor and all that here. You know, using the channel, uh, all the whole staff is paid in Bitcoin. Everybody that we deal with is paid in Bitcoin. I've been living on Bitcoin and um, you know, it's it's obviously tricky to live on Bitcoin. It's not the easiest thing, but also when you get into situations like this where [ __ ] close down your accounts, you can also navigate it. You you already kind of have the preparation. You you've you've got some rails in place where you understand generally how you're going to navigate it. Not that it's not a pain in the ass and you do still need the legacy system right now because so much is based upon it, but uh you can hedge your way around it. Um so anyways uh any quick quick thoughts on uh you know once again accounts being shut down fiat kind of fiat >> it's it's not just Bitcoiners right like if you remember uh was it Farage in the UK who had his account locked you know like two or three years ago like they it's all political and you know Isabella talk about just like the if you want to if you want to really know what goes on in a risk department at a bank like wise okay it's one thing to close the account of like you know someone who is working with Bitcoin or running a Bitcoin business, fine. You know, they're trying to get something off the ground, fine.

[01:13:36]If they close like the SAT market, you know, expense account at TD, it's going to suck, but it's not going to be that big a deal. Does anyone in the risk department at Wise ever think, should we close the account of people with these massive followings without telling them why? And in Peter's case, lying about it. Does anyone in the wrist department think when Isabella tweets us back, should we message her and ask her to take down the original tweet in plain English before we tell her that we're like they don't these guys don't get it?

[01:14:08]They don't get it. And and it's just like over and over and over again, you hear the same stories, but we know now.

[01:14:14]What is that thing? We know they know that we know and we're all just pretending that like it's just like what are we talking about here, man? I I don't get it. There's people you could do this to. But McCormick, I mean, Isabella's got a big following, but not the same as Pete. You know, Pete Pete probably has a poly market listing for British Prime Minister. Okay? Like, you can't you cannot shut that guy down without hearing about it forever. And and why would you why would you put yourself in that situation? The answer is because you don't get it. And it's not just, you know, the communication strategy. It's not just the risk department. It's everything in these banks. They don't get any of it. they've not tried to get it because their livelihood depends on them them not getting it as the saying goes. It's nothing new. It's going to continue happening and whatever. We can laugh about it, try and shed some light on it, but ultimately, Ben, you're right. You got to be ready because it could happen to you, right? You got a mortgage, you got savings accounts, you got all this stuff. Like, get ready to not have them.

[01:15:05]Get ready to have to do something in 14 days, right? Or less um when it when it comes your way.

[01:15:09]>> Yeah. Uh just so you guys know really quick, Brandon, sorry to cut you off here. Um, uh, we did have some complaints about the diversity of the, uh, of the panel here. Uh, so we will, uh, just just, uh, Stump Eye 17, uh, he did say, uh, love the diversity of this podcast. Four white guys and a [ __ ] I was going to ask who it was, but then he asked Joey if he wants or wants Choo Choo Train or ice cream.

[01:15:32]>> I'm Italian. I'm Italian, so I'm I'm actually like the most diverse on this uh >> Nonetheless, we will be implementing some DEI DEI uh in in the next episode.

[01:15:43]So, uh you know, we we'll see how that plays out, but uh thanks. We we appreciate it.

[01:15:47]>> Joey's got a lot of diversity. He's a big Roman Empire guy. He's a then Ottoman Empire guy, you know, like I don't like somewhere in there around. I don't know. So, >> diversity of opinion of opinion.

[01:15:58]>> Interesting. I mean again it's it's man we you know we laugh about it because it's you know the Navy Seals right when you're in buds you there's a saying right the only easy day was yesterday and so we joke about these things and again we said this in the first segment the reason we're here is not to make ourselves rich or wealthy or something like that like that's clearly if you've been around for a little bit in Bitcoin that's not something like it doesn't just happen overnight you're not getting wealthy overnight you're doing it because there's a calling there's something inside of you there there's something in your head there's something truly in your heart where you you you're taking a stand. You're the 70 men at the Lexington Green saying, "I'm not standing for this [ __ ] anymore and we're not doing it." And it's all it's all fun and games until someone some black swan happens that no, everyone says it's not possible. There's no way you could be welded into your home if there was a a virus floating around the world that's never happened before. There's never been a virus before. We've never had a plague. This has never happened. And we got to be welded into our home because of this. There's got to be a climate emergency. There's got to be a Canadian trucker event or the Dutch farmers or the Australians. That never happens. And and so it's all fun and games until that [ __ ] happens. And that's what's so frustrating again to Bitcoin is people that are ahead of the curve a year, five years, 20 years ahead of the curve, saying, "Hey guys, look, like this shit's going to happen if we keep going this direction. The debt ceiling, etc., etc. We should probably turn back and go another way." And then everyone laughs at you, calls you an idiot, and says you're extreme. And then sure as [ __ ] the thing happens to 5, 10, 20 years from now. And then everyone's looking around like, "Who could have ever seen this happening?" So again, it's like you have to laugh because you'll cry otherwise. if you don't laugh, if we don't come have a few beers and talk about this stuff and act like we're in the locker room because you'll literally go insane otherwise because you look around you in society and no one gives a [ __ ] They don't care. They they want to touch the stove. They want to get burnt and then they they want to blame you for at the end of the day. They're the ones like Joey or someone said earlier like they're the ones coming for you at the end of the day. You're you're the person like you said Isabella is like the nicest person in Bitcoin. Is there many people nicer than Isabella in Bitcoin and and she's the one getting taken out.

[01:17:50]You come after someone like me or someone like you know Ben or Joey or Walk or Nathan like you don't go after Isabella. Like what are you doing?

[01:17:56]That's the game. They're so brazen and they there's so much that the the legacy world doesn't even they don't even care because they know they have so much power still to this point. They just don't care. And they know there's so few people willing to stand to do anything about it. They don't give a [ __ ] This is the people over in the East Coast during COVID saying, "Hey, are you going to give them football?" It was like the the the lady that led the hell stuff in Virginia or whatever and she's talking to the governor like, "Are you going to give him football this week?" "Oh, okay.

[01:18:19]Yeah, we'll give him football this week." "Okay, yeah, sure." That's what they're doing. Oh, should we should we have a duct tape six feet here or you know three meters here? That's that's the clowns that are leading you and you take it. You take it. You like it and you're just going to get more of your medicine.

[01:18:34]>> You say black swan. You have to say swan of color.

[01:18:41]>> I'm glad I'm glad that Yeah, I'm glad that Walker read the DEI manual. Thank you for being sensitive and uh keeping this a safe space, >> Ben.

[01:18:50]>> Yeah. Okay. I wanted to talk about this really quick. Uh, libitcoin. So, this is an alternative Bitcoin uh implementation. Uh, it is not Bitcoin core. It is not Bitcoin knots. Uh, knots being a basically a a copy of core uh with some changes to the implementation there. Liitcoin uh from scratch uh separate implementation. It's been around for quite some time. Uh Eric Bosll uh is the one that created it. So, um, the Liitcoin developer, uh, Eric Bosll says that the latest version, uh, can complete a full Bitcoin node initial block download with full validation in just 55 minutes. The speed comes from a new GPUbased signature verification system that runs concurrently with normal script validation rather than a se as a separate step. Instead of pausing execution to verify every EC uh ECDSA and Schnore signature, the software captures signature checks, batches them, and then processes them on the GPU while the rest of validation continues. He says this approach achieves about a 99.5% signature capture without blocking validation, eliminating the need for a second verification pass. If a batch signature check fails, the software traces it back to the corresponding block and marks that block invalid. He also claims the design can batch virtually any number of signatures, allowing the GPU to remain ahead of the rest of the validation pipeline and significantly reduce full node sync times. So again, I I'm not technical enough to really be able to dive into the meat of this. And some people are very excited. Other people have uh you know have some qualms about uh the implementation but nonetheless the fact that this thing can sync up in 55 minutes full initial block download the entire history of every transaction Bitcoin has ever had and sync it and verify it in that amount of time is fantastic and I think people need to examine how this is done and you know you know examine the trade-offs as well.

[01:21:04]But this is great and and I want to see more implementation. I think the more choice that we have, the better. Uh right now, this is not super easy for the average person to run like you're going to be doing command line stuff like this. But I would love to see this packaged as like an umbrell service and be able to just, you know, run it on on a a plug-and-play box. So, Libbitcoin is and it's probably not even showing. Uh >> it's one I got one on the tracker. So, let's get those numbers up. Yeah, you do the most nodes. Like what does IBD take on a first world connection? Two weeks.

[01:21:36]>> No, no, >> 36 hours last time I did it as well.

[01:21:39]>> Yeah, it's like it's it's quite it's gotten quite a bit better. Um there's been a lot of work done on being able to sync faster. So like on a on a good decent laptop with a good connection uh I can you know even like you know I I booted up an umbrell uh earlier in the spring plugged it in and the next day I look and it was synced up.

[01:22:02]>> Oh >> so you know and then so it's no longer like Raspberry Pi. I thought the spam was >> filling the network. I know makes more spam than Bitcoin's block size limit allows. Right.

[01:22:17]Yes.

[01:22:17]>> Or no comment.

[01:22:19]>> The issue is that too, like I I still think, you know, it's late in the show to get into this conversation, but I I still think that like the it is much more likely that the block size increases if demand increases than people realize because IBD is faster, bandwidth is faster, hardware is cheaper, like you're going to wind up having this discussion in a real way. I bet you like before, I don't know, 2035 maybe, assuming we get some onchain demand back. Um, >> I'm not getting into that, but I think the opposite is essentially true. But Walker, what's your take on uh on the new node implementation here that has a fast download?

[01:22:51]>> I mean, boy, I don't know why they're not running knots and signaling BIP 110 if they care about Bitcoin because everybody that doesn't is a pedto and a cortards influencer and captured. So, >> pose caster is the new uh lingo I saw in the chat. Poster.

[01:23:06]>> That's all I know. If you disagree with what software someone runs in their own local machine, you're clearly a pedophile and captured is what I've been told by people online with IQ is not much warmer than room temp. So that's my thoughts.

[01:23:21]>> Fahrenheit or Celsius?

[01:23:22]>> Oh, [ __ ] >> No comment. Fahrenheit cuz it's [ __ ] America.

[01:23:28]>> Oh my god.

[01:23:29]>> Okay, I'm going to change change uh gears really quick before we sign off here. Uh the other Jack Jack Dorsey has a new project he just launched uh something called Buzz, a new group chat platform for teams of people uh and agents of all sizes built to reduce our dependency on Slack, GitHub, model agnostic, decentralized, self-s sovereign, open source uh built on Monster apparently. Uh so the website here's Buzz and uh again um Jack just keeps on pumping out new stuff that uh he he's I mean the the the speed at which uh new projects get dropped uh by a lot of people now that that have the gusto to do so is staggering. Glad to see uh a decentralized um kind of team management thing. Maybe we should think about using it for uh for uh the big back chat. We'll see.

[01:24:23]>> Oh, >> we probably like I people don't even necessarily realize like GitHub is owned by Microsoft, right? So that's a Bill Gates own project right there. So I love to see this. I I love the Jack Dorsey redemption arc. Please build more of these for us. I love it.

[01:24:35]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:37]>> Yeah. Anyways, um J, I'm going to leave that there. Uh again, cool to see all all the great stuff being built. Uh plenty more. Um, you know, we didn't even get to, I guess, Open AI, one of their models escaped containment and hacked the hugging face website. Oh, dude. All kinds of >> Yeah, all kinds of crazy stuff. Plenty more to discuss on future episodes.

[01:24:59]Nonetheless, uh, this has been an absolute blast. Uh, everybody that's been here, thank you guys for throwing tons of chairs in the chat. I'm sure none of them have to do with anything Walker just said 30 seconds ago.

[01:25:13]And uh and uh we will be we will be back again uh with our new DEI policies. Stay tuned for those. Uh and thank you guys.

[01:25:22]Uh I am Ben. This was Joey Walker, Brandon, Nathan, and this was Bigcast.

[01:25:31]You know, the world is heading down a dark path. Online censorship, central bank digital currencies, a complete loss of privacy, and it's only accelerating.

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