Sovereign Citizen Says He Doesn't Need a Driver's License... Judge Convicts Him

[00:00:00]uh terminated the representation of the um public defenders office and having represented to the court that he intends on proceeding without counsel. Is that correct, Mr. Fuller?

[00:00:11]>> Yes, ma'am.

[00:00:12]>> Because you're representing yourself as I indicated before, you are held to the same standards as an attorney in terms of um improper questioning will not be permitted and you follow the rules of procedure and rules of law. Do you have any questions before?

[00:00:27]Hi. If you want to come forward, raise your right hand. Talia Spanelli.

[00:00:32]>> And what do you do for a living?

[00:00:33]>> I'm a police officer with the Colorado Springs Police Department. I believe it's July 1st of 2022. I conducted a traffic stop.

[00:00:41]>> What was that traffic stop for?

[00:00:43]>> Um, there was a driver's side tail light out.

[00:00:46]>> And at any time did he present proof of insurance? Uh, >> no.

[00:00:50]>> At any time did he present proof of registration?

[00:00:53]>> No. At any time, did he present proof of his license?

[00:00:57]>> No.

[00:00:58]>> How did you check if he had a license?

[00:01:00]>> So, I was able to find him in our law enforcement databases using the information that he did provide to me. I obtained a digital photograph of Mr. Fuller who matched >> Does exhibit 2 purport to be a certified vehicle record from the Colorado DMV.

[00:01:17]There is a seal on it and I certify it says I certify that the attached are true and correct copies is maintained by the Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles.

[00:01:26]>> Do those records relate to the defendant D?

[00:01:29]>> There is a name. Yes. And the date of birth that I uh located for him. Yes.

[00:01:34]>> Okay. Thank you. Uh your honor, the people would move to admit self authenticating document the DMV records of defendant David Fuller.

[00:01:43]>> Any objection?

[00:01:44]>> Yes, I got an objection. You got this child support in here. They had to pay me back all this money. Why ain't that in here?

[00:01:50]>> That it's it's the a record I'm assuming when a driver's license is suspended for child support regardless of >> there was no driver >> whether or not it's but your driving privileges are suspended for failure to pay child support. I'm so admitted.

[00:02:04]>> Your honor, let the record reflect that the defendant has been served proof of service that the license has been robbed.

[00:02:11]>> And that's part of that DMV packet in exhibit 2.

[00:02:14]>> Yes, your honor. that objection. There's no license. I >> I I understand that you're admitting that you don't have a driver's license.

[00:02:21]>> I turned my license in in 1999. I >> I understand that years ago.

[00:02:25]>> I understand.

[00:02:25]>> You can't charge me for not having a license.

[00:02:28]>> Yes, he can.

[00:02:29]>> No, we can't.

[00:02:30]>> M Mr. Fuller, Mr. Fuller, you and I are going to talk about it and we're going to You'll have your opportunity. Okay.

[00:02:36]>> See, he's trying to bury me in.

[00:02:38]>> Well, Mr. Fuller, >> that's false.

[00:02:41]>> Mr. Fuller, I understand your objection.

[00:02:43]and it is overruled.

[00:02:45]>> No further questions, your honor.

[00:02:47]>> Mr. Fuller, do you have any questions?

[00:02:49]Um, for officer Spanelli?

[00:02:51]>> Yes, sir. I do. What law requires individual to get a license?

[00:02:56]>> Your honor, objection. Uh, >> that's constitutional.

[00:02:58]>> No, she is not an expert in the law. So, she's no ticket for >> No, Mr. Fuller.

[00:03:03]>> Well, I'm going to tell you this like but no, >> there is no law.

[00:03:06]>> Mr. Fuller, Mr. Fuller, we're going to follow procedure. So, you've asked a witness a question.

[00:03:13]She cited you.

[00:03:15]>> She cited you on your ticket under the Colorado Revised Statutes 424 215 42 101 subsection one 231 at Wait a minute. And and that those are the laws that she cited before.

[00:03:31]>> But the law I'm violating is my constitutional right.

[00:03:34]>> Well, wait. And that's your ar that's an argument and it's not properly before this witness. I'll give you an opportunity to make argument when it's your case and chief. Okay.

[00:03:42]>> Okay. Your question.

[00:03:44]>> See the reason why I asked that question Y. I don't carry a lot. I don't use a license. But she wrote me up for a license I didn't have. How can she write me for something? Because I just explained to you.

[00:03:54]>> That's not a good explanation. Y >> I understand that. But the laws in the Colorado revised statutes.

[00:03:59]>> But it does not in my way.

[00:04:02]>> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You and I you're going to I'm going to allow you to make that argument on the record. And at the end of the trial, I'm going to rule, but she cited you according to what is contained in the Colorado Revised Statutes. Um, and so that's a question properly before her, but the legal or constitutional argument is not properly made in front of this witness.

[00:04:22]So, do you have any other question?

[00:04:23]>> She can't answer why she wrote me a ticket without a license.

[00:04:26]>> Well, she could answer that. She >> That's not required under any not arguing. We're not arguing.

[00:04:34]>> That's not a state law. can answer the question as what what she cited you for.

[00:04:38]>> Okay.

[00:04:39]>> She can >> please answer that question.

[00:04:40]>> Okay. So, Officer Spinelli, what did you site Mr. Fuller for on that day? Sir, I did uh cite you for not having your lamps as required, drove a vehicle without a valid driver's license, failed to display registration and compulsory insurance, and those are the citations.

[00:05:01]When when I went to go pick up my car, there was no lamp out. So I >> question That's not a question. I'm just the facts.

[00:05:08]>> You know what? You will have an opportunity to testify. But you're asking her why she pulled you over and so her answer was you had a tail lamp out.

[00:05:18]>> But she didn't say that at first. She said my tag didn't come back to nothing she recognized. Right.

[00:05:24]I we did say that during the the course of our conversation, >> but you never even said that a light was out to me. You never even told me that.

[00:05:32]I didn't find that out till you noted on the ticket. So why would you make up a statement that you stopped me for a lamp being out and the lamp was not out?

[00:05:39][clears throat] >> Objection, your honor. Badgering witness.

[00:05:42]>> Sorry.

[00:05:42]>> Sustained.

[00:05:43]>> I have no further questions. Okay.

[00:05:47]>> The people call officer Zachary Forester to the stand.

[00:05:55]And did you respond to a call for service on 11:29 2022?

[00:06:00]>> Uh, yes. I responded to a traffic stop initiated by uh, CSPD Sergeant uh, Al Rogers.

[00:06:06]>> And what did you see when you arrived on scene?

[00:06:08]>> Officer Rogers had stopped a vehicle, an SUV with no plate attached, and he had informed me he had contacted the driver.

[00:06:14]>> Were you wearing your body one camera that day?

[00:06:16]>> Yes.

[00:06:17]>> Uh, was it turned on?

[00:06:18]>> Yes. Is this the CD I showed you in the hallway?

[00:06:21]>> Yes.

[00:06:22]>> Are these your initials?

[00:06:23]>> Yes.

[00:06:23]>> Officer Forester, at any time, did the defendant um furnish proof of registration?

[00:06:29]>> No.

[00:06:30]>> Proof of a license?

[00:06:31]>> No.

[00:06:31]>> Did he have plates attached to the rear of his vehicle? To >> my knowledge? No. He He took them home.

[00:06:36]See, he will be.

[00:06:38]>> And on the top of the page there, can you read the three words that are bold proof of service?

[00:06:43]>> Yes. And towards the bottom of the page, there should be a signature box. Can you tell the court how many of those proof of services have signatures on them?

[00:06:52]>> Three of them have signatures. The rest say refused to sign.

[00:06:55]>> Thank you, Officer Fuller. The people would move to admit exhibit two.

[00:06:59]>> Anytime there's police involvement, you'll always find more than one officer. Each officer that is on scene is involved in the stop. Um, he did not stop.

[00:07:08]>> Objection overruled. I understand that he he did not pull you over first.

[00:07:12]Objection overruled. So admitted.

[00:07:14]>> No further questions, your honor.

[00:07:15]>> Okay. All right, Mr. Questions for officer Forester.

[00:07:20]>> What state statute requires a a person to have a driver's license?

[00:07:24]>> I do not know the statute off the top of my head, but I do know is a required statuction. Your honor, that uh calls for the witness to be an expert in the law.

[00:07:31]>> Well, if he he does site, how do they know what to site?

[00:07:34]>> U we use reference guides for the exact statutes when it comes to driving under revoked or driving with or without a license.

[00:07:40]>> Is it illegal to drive without a license?

[00:07:43]>> Yes.

[00:07:43]>> Since when?

[00:07:46]What law? What statute requires me to get your license to travel upon the public road?

[00:07:52]>> It would be uh Colorado Revised Statute 42-2-2061A.

[00:07:58]You're required to drive with a license.

[00:08:01]>> I'm not required to drive. Yeah, driving. I travel. I told you that. I told him that.

[00:08:06]>> Objection. Badger witness. This sustained says >> it's against the law to travel. So, I got to wave my right.

[00:08:13]>> Mr. Mr. Fuller, you have a legal argument that you are dying to make to the court. That is a US Constitution versus state law argument. It is It is not This officer did answer your question. He >> What was the reason the officer stopped me?

[00:08:30]>> This is not a This There's been no >> He can testify against me. Y he should know what I was stopped for. M >> M That's fair.

[00:08:38]>> Mr. Fuller, today is a trial.

[00:08:41]>> See, that's what I don't understand.

[00:08:42]Young, how can you replicate something that don't exist?

[00:08:45]>> I understand you don't understand that.

[00:08:47]>> You can't just sit here and start writing >> any other questions for this witness >> or license that I don't use.

[00:08:52]>> Any other questions for this witness?

[00:08:54]>> Come in. No. No more questions.

[00:08:55]>> Anyone?

[00:08:58]>> No, your honor.

[00:08:59]>> Any other witnesses?

[00:09:00]>> No, your honor.

[00:09:02]>> People rest.

[00:09:03]>> All right. Thank you, Mr. Fuller.

[00:09:05]>> This is your opportunity to testify on your own behalf. If you take the stand, we'll get your testimony. If you if you want to make argument as opposed to testify, then I'll I'll you can rest your case and I'll allow you to make an argument.

[00:09:20]>> Rest my case means I'm guilty.

[00:09:23]>> No. To rest your case means that you're leaving it up to the court to determine whether or not they met their burden of proof. But I'll But if you want to testify, >> then Okay. So So if you're not going to testify, do you have any witnesses? No, I don't.

[00:09:39]>> Okay. So, if you're not going Wait a minute. If you're not going to testify and you have no witnesses, then you are arresting your case. However, I'll allow you to make argument. How it goes is the people will start and then you can make argument and then they'll have a brief opportunity to respond to them. So, you each have 10 minutes total to argue to the court and then I'm going to rule.

[00:09:58]And when I rule, it's not a back and forth. It's not an argument. It is a final ruling. You can always appeal my ruling. It it is not a back and forth.

[00:10:07]Closing argument.

[00:10:09]>> I believe the people have met all of the elements of all of the charges provided.

[00:10:14]>> Mr. Fuller, sir, this is your opportunity.

[00:10:18]>> Driving is making the place of uh making the public roads a place of business for profit or gain. I never did that. Now, it says right here, private automobiles are not required by any law, code, or statute to be recorded. So, I don't know what he's >> Where you getting that? Chicago v Chicago motor coach. But see, they all refer to driving. Driving is making the public road your place of business for profit. Again, you you're using the public road for profit. Traveling, you don't it's not required under any law.

[00:10:45]You don't have to have a license, registration, or anything. Your Chicago v Chicago motor coach 16921.

[00:10:53]The use of the highway for purposes of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived of. They sitting there putting me in a CDL. I don't have a CDL anymore.

[00:11:08]Okay. Thompson B. Smith. The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highway and transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which the city may prohibit or permit at will. But a common law right which he's has under the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. See, I I I quit using the license in 1999. I never had this problem before until I come out here and these these prosecutors don't seem to understand the difference between travel and driving. That's two different things. So he want everybody to be drivers on the public road. So if you want me to get a driver's license, we got to set a contract and I got to get paid. That's what a that's what a driving license is for. That's why you got truck drivers, bus drivers, the the guys that drive the train, they get paid to be drivers. If you going to tell me I got to go and get a driver license cuz you say so or the state says so. Now you got to pay me for that. That's a contract. And the only way you can tell me I can't do it is you got to lawfully amend the constitution.

[00:12:03]Is that it?

[00:12:04]>> No. And then you got Kent versus Delies.

[00:12:06]Travel is a part of liberty which a citizen cannot be deprived without due process of the under the fifth amendment. Then you got Saturan versus Delies. The right to travel is well established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as natural rights. And you know states can't diminish my rights. They they say well you you drive. I have not driven a car lawfully since 1999. I've traveled in a car. So you don't agree with that young. You're shaking your head.

[00:12:38]>> I don't agree. But go ahead. I'm >> But but that's federal that's state.

[00:12:41]That's that's my right. See to to look for free people have the common the common law and constitutional right to travel upon the roads and highways that are provided by the governments for that purpose. Licensing licensing of drivers cannot be required of free people because taking on the restrictions of their license requires the surrender of a [clears throat] inalable right. So I'm not giving up my rights. But you telling me I got to go get his license. So you forcing me to give up that right? My rights cannot be diminished by by the state. It can't be diminished. That's called fraud. Cuz you can't revocate anything. You can't tell me. They can't tell me I just can't use the public road. Nobody. You you you can't you don't own a public road. Travel is not a privilege requiring license, vehicle registrations, forced insuranceances, a Chicago v Chicago motocross.

[00:13:34]>> What's the year on that?

[00:13:35]>> 1929.

[00:13:36]>> 1929. No, it's been revised.

[00:13:39]>> It's been overruled.

[00:13:40]>> It has.

[00:13:41]>> It has been still been they still me. We still use it.

[00:13:45]>> Right. Right. Well, it has been overruled. But go after that.

[00:13:48]>> So you telling me we got to go and get wave our rights to get your license?

[00:13:52]>> I'll tell you in a minute.

[00:13:53]So that's the way that's the full argument. You have 3 minutes left.

[00:13:57]>> Miranda versus Arizona. When rights secured by the constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which arbit arbitrates them.

[00:14:06]So you overruled that one that been overruled. No, you use it now. Me the claim and exercise of constitutional rights can be cannot be converted into a crime. So you can't tell me I got to go get your license and charge me or you driving without this. I don't drive. I travel everywhere I go. Are you telling me I can't travel?

[00:14:23]>> I don't I don't disagree that you can travel from state to state. Yep. That is a constitution >> and it doesn't require anything.

[00:14:30]>> Right. You don't need permission.

[00:14:33]>> License a license is permission. What is it then?

[00:14:36]>> Driving is different. Driving is a privilege. It's not a right.

[00:14:39]>> That's right. I don't have to have that privilege. Traveling is a right. Right.

[00:14:42]>> I suppose on your gear shift there's a T instead of a D.

[00:14:47]>> Lamp.

[00:14:49]>> What? What? I didn't hear you. as it >> no license and registration is required right so you got a limit that's a right you can't take my life >> um and you are out of time you have seven reserved Mr. She >> so first your honor the 10th circuit has consistently held that the fundamental right to travel applies only to interstate movement and not in intrastate travel. So within a state may be regulated under McGra versus city of Oklahoma. Moreover, Colorado courts have repeatedly confirmed that driving is not a fundamental right. In Crocker versus Colorado Department of Revenue, um the Colorado Supreme Court held that quote, "The right to drive an automobile on the state highways does not rise to the status of a fundamental right."

[00:15:40]Similarly, in Mayo versus National Farmers Union Property and Casualty Company, the court stated that household insurance exclusions did not infringe on travel rights because they quote at most inhabited end quote decisions to travel together by automobile, but imposed no constraint on separate travel by automobile or joint or separate travel by other means. Federal courts have agreed with the district court of Colorado in Meisman versus Fremont County in which noting that requiring driver's licenses is a valid exercise of the state's police power and that conditions precedent to granting a driver's license, car registration, or license plates do not infringe on constitutional rights. They reciting Supreme Court President B. Buren.

[00:16:25]>> Thank you.

[00:16:26]>> Everybody say it. Oh, so we're going to go back to the 10th amendment. Provides for certain enumerated rights as belonging to the federal government.

[00:16:34]Anything that's not enumerated or implied is reserved for the state governments. States have the authority under the 10th amendment to regulate the operations of motor vehicles on highways, public highways, public roads within that state. No, I'm not. This is my ruling.

[00:16:52]You You've been asking where it all comes from. I'm telling you where this all comes from. And you are right.

[00:16:57]Traveling is a right, but driving it's a privilege. So, Mr. Fuller, the laws of the state of Colorado, the court is finding were violated. They are laws that are constitutional. Therefore, the court is finding conviction enters. you repeatedly indicated to the officer that you did not you showed a madeup license um but you did not have a Colorado state or or any other state license plate and that you drove your motor vehicle after >> not registered it can't be a motor vehicle y'all m >> Mr. Polar, I I appreciate your arguments, but they are they are flawed that you uh continued to operate a motor vehicle after revocation of your license by the Department of Motor Vehicles was in effect. You had notice, >> but I never had a license in Colorado can't revocate a license that don't exist. M >> Mr. in 34 years.

[00:17:53]>> Your your argument is flawed in that because you continued to drive and because you continued to pick up points, even though you didn't have a valid license, a valid license is not something that it's held and you put little checks on it. Even though you may have turned your license in, you had enough points that your driving privileges, >> that's what I want to your driving privileges were points when I have nothing by the state of Colorado according to your DMV packet here. There is enough in here to prove to this court that your license was in revocation status and that you had notice of the revocation and either signed or refused to sign um the notices and proofs of service. You failed to have properly affixed license plates. You failed to have a valid registration and prove valid registration and that you were driving after revocation of your driving privileges by the state of Colorado. You had a tail lamp that was um not properly working and you failed to provide a valid policy of insurance. You said you had it, but the law the law is that you provide proof.

[00:19:10]>> She said it was no good. It was on the phone.

[00:19:12]>> You said to her, "I'm not going to show you."

[00:19:14]>> You told her when I was >> You said to her, "I don't have to show you."

[00:19:18]>> I don't have to show you.

[00:19:19]>> But I showed it.

[00:19:20]>> You said, "I don't need a license."

[00:19:23]That's a [ __ ] right, lady. You got to learn the law. Um, and and I know you're not debating that. So, >> but I got a question for you. When is the revocation going to be lifted?

[00:19:32]>> You have to go to the Department of Motor Vehicles and ask them what the status of your license is and what it would take for you to get a license. I can tell you now, you just amassed a whole host of points. So, I would venture to guess you just put yourself in a situation.

[00:19:48]>> I haven't had a license since I come from Iraq. I I understand that, but you must have a valid driver's license. If you are a resident of the state of Colorado, you must have a valid Colorado driver's license.

[00:19:58]>> Transportation and commerce in the state of Colorado, >> you are citing a definition that is not recognized by this court or any court.

[00:20:09]If you're you're arguing that it is a commerce clause argument, however, >> but regardless, your honor, it's still a contract, right? It is not a contract.

[00:20:21]>> So I don't have to go through >> for financial gain. It you need a driver's license from the state of Colorado. Whether you're visiting Aunt May or going to the store or going to court work, >> it's free, right?

[00:20:35]>> It is not. And it does not have to sign my name to it. You know, that's a contract.

[00:20:40]>> The state of Colorado has the authority, as I've repeatedly cited, to enact laws that require a driver's license in the state of Colorado. And so for that reason, u Mr. Fuller, I appreciate your arguments. It is not an argument that will get you anywhere. But >> I see that >> in trouble.

[00:20:59]>> I've never had a license since I was what, 19 years old.

[00:21:03]>> I can tell you I I would >> I don't know that.

[00:21:07]>> Is it a money grab for the state or what? Cuz >> I've never had this problem.

[00:21:11]>> And and look at your driving record.

[00:21:13]your earliest conviction in May of 2016 driving when your license was under restraint suspended and that was here in Colorado.

[00:21:21]>> That's right. Everything has been here in Colorado.

[00:21:24]>> Well, you've got a conviction in North Carolina for driving with a revoked license. You got a failure to appear in North Carolina. You've got to fail to answer a citation in New Mexico. Then you've got a failure to appear in North Carolina. Failure to appear in California. effective brakes, speeding, expired or no non-commercial driver's license in Illinois with that >> in 1999.

[00:21:49]>> Yeah, that's I had my license, >> right? And then in North Carolina back in 1984, you driving wrong way. Expired license in 1991 from North Carolina.

[00:22:00]>> I've been stopped in a lot of states a lot of times and never had a problem.

[00:22:03]>> So maybe Colorado is just not the place for you.

[00:22:06]>> Colorado, [laughter] that's right. You might be right.

[00:22:10]Right.

[00:22:10]>> I'm going to set a sentencing date when you come back to court because you are going to be on some type of probation and required to get a license. So, I'm going to give you some time.

[00:22:20]>> You can require me to get a license.

[00:22:22]>> I can make it as a condition of probation or I can sentence.

[00:22:25]>> Well, then what if I'm not what if I don't qualify for the condition of probation?

[00:22:29]>> I know. Well, that's why I'm going to give you some time to to figure that out. And we're going to come back here.

[00:22:34]You're 9 at 9:30 83 and 22T10889.

[00:22:40]So Mr. Fuller were celebrities. Did you know that?

[00:22:45]>> No, [clears throat] you >> somebody videotaped your hearing and posted it on YouTube. Some organization, I don't know who they are, but but we're famous.

[00:22:57]Maybe that makes us influencers.

[00:22:59]>> I didn't know nothing about that.

[00:23:01]Yeah, [clears throat] I somebody brought it to my attention. Another um judge had been watching. So I I don't know.

[00:23:08]>> How would they do that? Y >> I So when we have to live stream, our legislature requires that we live stream all of our proceedings and then they record these and they post them on their YouTube pages apparently. In any event, were you able to get to the DMV? What have you done since our last >> I didn't know I had to go up?

[00:23:30]>> Yeah. Well, I told you that it would benefit you greatly to figure out this the how what [clears throat] it would take for you to get your license.

[00:23:37]>> I could I don't have anything pending on it should be no problem. But I didn't know I had to go up there.

[00:23:42]>> Yeah.

[00:23:43]>> I didn't hear that. I guess I weren't paying attention.

[00:23:45]>> Yeah, because you know all of these carry the possibility of of jail. I'd rather not throw you in jail unless you want to just go to jail and be done with it. I'd rather have you get your license. And >> see, that's not that's not an easy thing out here. You you have to wait.

[00:24:01]>> You just told me it was easy.

[00:24:02]>> No, but I'm saying the the appointment.

[00:24:04]It's easy to go to the DMV.

[00:24:06]>> That's what we talked about it. And I know we talked about it cuz it's videotaped. So, we could just have one day for an appointment.

[00:24:12]>> I was I guess I wasn't paying attention to that.

[00:24:14]>> I know you weren't paying attention. You were kind of upset. Okay. I'm going to set you out for I'm going to give you a couple weeks. I want you to have an appointment. I You don't need to have been seen, but but you were to have an appointment. The only way you're going to stay out of jail is to get this license. It took two months to get the ID card. Okay. Well, we'll we'll see what happens.

[00:24:34]>> All right. Well, if it's too much of a problem, I'll just we'll just about it then. [clears throat] All right. I want you to come in on July 1st at 11:30.