Afghanistan Talk Series (1) | Book Talk: No Compulsion in Religion: No Exceptions

Added: 2026-05-19

[00:00:14]Good afternoon distinguished guests.

[00:00:17]Welcome to the first session of Afghanistan talk series with a discussion of the book no completion in religion no exception.

[00:00:26]Oh, in Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan and many other society religions has often functioned not only a a faith uh but as an instrument of power uh a tool for control, for order and sometimes for silencing the sins.

[00:00:47]Today's question is simple but answer is deeply constant.

[00:00:54]If the Quran says like then there that's all this religion compulsion comes from this is not a theological um questions which is I believe this is a political historical and deeply human with that I would like to invite Dr. Beli president of roomi house to begin with um he speak about the Afghans and talk service please welcome to Dr. uh distinguished guests, scholars and friends visioning and welcome you all at today's session which I believe is so timely and deeply necessary for Ablam Stone.

[00:01:46]We are opening today a series which is called Afghanistan talk series which uh is a dedicated sl for intellectual forces which is shaping Afghanistan and the region and also I believe it's a bridge between the scholarship and the community to bring the leadership the thinkers the scholars the practitioners to talk with each other and see how intellectually scholarly and practitionary are the solutions for Afghanistan and the region.

[00:02:35]uh especially today's session which is dancing around the totalitarianism in Afghanistan in the region which I believe is impacting the life of millions in our region unfortunately and we are honored that this topic is anchoring around the new important volume uh no compassion uh in religion no exception which is edited by our brother and great scholar Mustafa Cule who is somehow trying to respond the struggles of our region and the text itself I believe is directly talking about the issues in Afghanistan and the issues in our region I would not talk about the book a lot himself is present here. But personally, I believe that Mustafa has tried to show us that faith is not a source of course.

[00:03:44]It is a source of liberation. And through the text especially to a bridge between the scripture and the tradition especially the practices we know how to revisit the foundations of our religious principles and to respond once again with the intellectual approach to solve our problems especially the religious problems that some people are totalitarianistically really somehow trying to monopoly the the societies.

[00:04:22]So uh we are uh so much pleasure to have great scholars today with us. We have uh Mustafa himself of course he has written a lot about Islam, politics, society and history in our region.

[00:04:40]We have uh Ustad Osman Tarit. He is a great Islamic scholar who is somehow trying to again bridge the tradition with the contemporary lifestyle. Uh we have Dr. Omar Sharif. He is a great asset for Afghanistan who is always talking about how intellectually we have to talk about our society and political culture in Afghanistan and the region.

[00:05:10]And of course we have a young moderator who is also a great social asset of Afghanistan in young academia for us. I thank all of you and most welcome. I may not talk a lot because I'm not I'm advised not to talk a lot. So we will listen from the scholars and I hope we have good takeaways from today's uh uh session to see how we can think at least somehow some approaches to resolve the totalitarian issues in Afghanistan and the region. Thank you so much once again and most welcome.

[00:05:56]Thank you Dr. Belelfi for your extraordinary notes. Now I would like to invite um Dr. Um Sharifi to share his thought with us.

[00:06:04]>> So uh thank you for having me today and thank you for this rather very generous introduction. Um I am an anthropologist.

[00:06:10]So um when I was asked to kind of comment on your book on religion and I was I'm not a religious scholar and something at the same time I always looked in my work and my books and my upcoming book and stuff I tried to think about um when I try to think about a tried to explain what happened in Afghanistan for the last 20 30 years when we actually went through the ages of revolutions and ages of wars and everything else I realized it's impossible to imagine a to talk about its history culture society without actually understanding religion without knowing what is Islam on how Islam or the way shapes has how we shaped Islam and what it actually means for us and specifically in a context in which we are no longer dealing with an Islam that is just faith something that we all witness I think in our lifetime that suddenly the concept of Islam something that we knew with we familiar with we grew up with we uh we went from the mosques to madrasas to Sufi circles to households from everywhere that Islam suddenly was no longer just a faith for us that's based in history based in culture and based specifically based on our society but it's something that resembles more and more at least in my lifetime that I've witnessed to something that is looks like more of an ideology and I think about that because as an anthropologist I always like to tell a story when I want to say when I kind of trying to contextualize what I'm talking about especially reading at least the introduction of your work if not all of it and because I was giving very little time and um so I I remember like in 2000 1996 when Cobb fell to Taliban and I went to and before that we had like a years of of of civil war which literally destroyed cobble and most of the country in a sense and it was always happened in the name of this discourse about what is being Muslim and that for us the civil war was less about what type of Muslim we're supposed to be. It was more of a political issue rather than religious. When Cober fell, I went down to the downtown to the uh close to the park short now, the central park and there I the first time I saw these characters that which was with with a strange turban with like a very strange style of clothes and like rather kind of and disheveled face and disheveled hair and obviously I was young and I didn't have a beard and the first thing he looked at me and just says, "Oh, do not shave your beard. Grow it." That was my first encounter with Tala and to me that was a question like and I asked why do I have to do that and I say otherwise you'll not be a good Muslim and I suddenly that kind of that question in a way that particular encounter made me think about what it means to be a Muslim in the years and years of post Taliban and specifically when I went to study and trying to understand what specifically Islam the evolution of what Islam means for us and how it kind of transformed transition from something that was based on my culture, my history and my community to something that resembles what we already experienced before in the 1980s and that was the kind of very hardcore communist Khalki kind of a ideology in which they suddenly for the first time introduced to the age of ideologies and to me the similarities between these two approaches of what the His did in the beginning and then later the Taliban technically taking taking Islam instead of Marxism and and presenting it to us as something that is very rigid.

[00:09:31]and absolutely ahistorical.

[00:09:33]So that's in that kind of sense when I looked about the whole idea of of the book and then I imagined my own during what I how I imagined it when I did my field work in Afron and between 15 16 specifically that particular period maz kahor and other places.

[00:09:51]Suddenly I realized that fundamentally that question of what it means religions is is is is for us is not just about what it means to be a good Muslim or bad Muslim. It's a question of what it means to be living in social harmony or actually constant conflict. So and suddenly I started to see a Taliban out the image of Talibanism as a as a as kind of the Islam of Taliban rather than Taliban but the Talibanism as a context as a concept that it is I'm dealing with a religion that's no longer actually thrives based on a textual tradition based on cultural tradition and based on what we call sense of continuity. For a lot of us as Muslims and when we grew up we never imagined Islam to be something that simply is reading Quran is enough.

[00:10:38]You understand Quran you read hadith but also you read poetry you read the works of philosophers of Islam. You read the monot of Abdullah and you read the books of Ban and Wisan you read hes you read Molano and Mo you read Bkari and you read all the scholars. So the idea of Islam the way at least I realized it among many many people in Afghanistan was not just something that begins with what mas tell us and specifically that in our conscious historical conscious Afghanistan and the region has never ever experienced a regime that was run by the clerics in the course of history almost all every single rulers every single kind of regime that runs while they were Muslim but were never specifically centered around the concept of clerics father saw guardians of of religion. So in this kind of things I tried my my my work try to un my work I try to understand what exactly where is the distinction between the line between an Islam as an ideology where there's very limited space for conversation for imagination and for future and what is an Islam as a faith that's actually has a a a a social media in it. It has like a much larger context that thrives and it it allows a conversation about what it means to be a Muslim more important than what it means to be Islam. So that kind of book and this whole idea that this book now talk about law effort something also touches with this idea of understanding Islam as something that is culturally historically evolved in the course of time and deeply rooted in our minds in our bodies and as part of our subjectivity and an Islam that is fundamentally an ideological force that leaves no space for imagination and technically justifies authoritarianism. Thank you again for having me.

[00:12:32]Oh, thank you Dr. Sherfield for sharing your living experience. Um, now we move closer we move closer to the core of our discussion and I would like let me to invite Mr. Usman to he is a a PhD student in George Mason University and also is a religious scholar. Please welcome to Mr. Alhamdulillah.

[00:13:02]Uh actually this book uh as I went through this is not the end of Sunday. This is a provoking discussion for the start of something.

[00:13:19]It is very rich and it has a lot to argue and digest. I was not able in last one months almost that I had to kind of digest all which is in the book because it needs more human resources in the same time more close discussion between scholars and people. I will start from why we are here. One of the important thing that we have in Islam which prophet peace be upon him mentioned that in each 100 years there will be some people that they will they will devive the religion or devive this this uh the religion for this um for this society.

[00:14:16]What does it mean? Why?

[00:14:19]If everything is coming on norm normal and there is no need for something to go back and revive it then why this had it means that during 100 years many think in action will change and thinking will change new things will enter to the mind of people. The main point is that uh this is a very fundamental hadith that gave us thoughts that every hundred years there is need for going back and comparing the knowledge that we have, the epistemology that we have, the scholarship and the action to compare it with the main sources.

[00:15:15]And this is not only hadith. There is also a versa of holy Quran.

[00:15:21]If you are in differences on something, then go to Allah and to the God and to the prophet because you cannot solve it while you are arguing.

[00:15:39]There is a solution.

[00:15:44]I I believe some people may believe that this is old book old principle it is not working now but that's not the case the principle are working until the human being is living in this earth for that reason we have to go to the principle now the principle one is Quran the main source The second is the hadith and sunnah.

[00:16:18]In recent years, there are some people that they says get rid of sunnah. This is not something to focus.

[00:16:28]That's a misunderstanding.

[00:16:30]And those people who are going in taking any hadith and using it in any places for anything that is also wrong because as the verses of holy Quran it has two context one is the where it's located in holy Quran and one is where it is located when it come to the prophet and revealed to him. If we don't know these two context in the same time we don't know the relation of this versa with the other words of the holy Quran then we are lost as we are now we lost many things we don't know what the Quran in this versa says because we don't know the context of the words inside the holy Quran and also the context in which this was revealed prophet the bigger the bigger in larger uh problem is with the hadith because we don't know for what this hadith came what was the reason and what was the context for that reason the easy way is to get rid of that which is not a good way because if we get get rid of the hadith then we will lose many things that we cannot solve it now I'm coming to the no compulsion in religion.

[00:18:02]This is the principle versa in holy Quran because the holy Quran may have some non-principle uh orders as well but some of the verses are principles it cannot change and this is one of the principles. Now the point is that when you talk to so-called moolas they will easily say yes if someone is coming to Islam there is no compulsion but if someone is leaving Islam then no he has to be killed.

[00:18:45]This is totally wrong. This is against the Quran and against the hadith because normally if we say go to the if this was a killing then that has to be killed. There is no need for the second time coming to become Muslim in the third time. It itself says that uh there is way open.

[00:19:26]There is nothing compulsion on any fate you want to choose.

[00:19:34]But what is wrong with this? They took the wrong inahk. The har says the person who or the persons who change the religion not not his faith who changed the religion then ke not the faith Because uh when prophet was sending this letter to the uh king of the time, he never said amen. He saidlim.

[00:20:24]Why? He didn't say amen.

[00:20:29]He can easily say amen then to where it says tolah.

[00:20:41]Because iman is different. Iman is my own choice.

[00:20:46]I is not connected to to the bigger Islam.

[00:20:52]The bigger Islam is a religion as the current says in Medina in the Islam.

[00:20:59]For that reason if someone want to change the religion as it happened during abati city of radulan they want to change the religion we will pray will not give zakat this is changing the religion this is not changing the faith they had imah they call themselves Muslim but they didn't want to give zakat They were changing the religion for that reason. Even in the mash easily says those who want to change the religion in its kind of explanation of this hadith in the other part of Sahil Bkari for that reason we need to go to each hadith First find whether this is authentic or not.

[00:22:06]Then we have to find the context where this context what kind of context this hadith came otherwise we will lose. One example is the hadith.

[00:22:26]Unfortunately they use it as a weapon against women.

[00:22:32]But that is a joke made by prophet peace be upon him with woman in the day.

[00:22:38]Now if if if these jah people ignorant people they didn't know about this they just used the even they didn't know whether the can be or not because atal is experience of people and process of knowledge atal is not something solid to be taken from somewhere.

[00:23:13]We did a research on that.

[00:23:17]We a group of ama under the Afghanistan scholar research association from last three four years we are working on these topics.

[00:23:28]We solve a lot of them.

[00:23:32]Some of them still in draft.

[00:23:36]That's that's the way that we have to revive this religion and put in front of the people what reality of the religion is.

[00:23:50]And for that reason this book has to be in this area a kind of manual to go ahead with that and explore it more and more and solve some of the challenges that are raised here.

[00:24:06]Because I can see that that this hadith oft this came here in this book that is a worry point but that's not the worry point because that's different.

[00:24:21]The other po point is we are mixing the sources.

[00:24:26]We don't have ranking for them. When it is in the Quran then if hadith is against the the Quran we have to search for this hadith. Why?

[00:24:39]If that's authentic if not authentic then the problem is solved.

[00:24:46]Then hadith these s two sources hadith authentic hadith with the context and why it uh it was said this is the important part. Now coming under that the Sahabah tabi they are like us even the prophet told us brother but they didn't tell brother to those people and he was asked why brother uh the prophet no companion No, the tab.

[00:25:30]No, he said that my brothers are those who didn't see me but believe me.

[00:25:39]We are his brother, the prophet's brother.

[00:25:43]The other hadith says in that please take what I say to other people because the other people might be more intelligent than who giving this hadith then let's let's work on it for example is not a worry for me I imanifi in other imams and they did a good work but people now condemn them which is not good but they are not complete they may have mistakes we have to fix it because we have to revive this and go back for that reason we need a lot of work thank you uh Dr. gruel for your work with other colleagues and I appreciate it. Uh I I am really I am day and night working.

[00:26:44]This morning I had a discussion with Ma in Afghanistan. He asked me different question and I responded. He finally when I was talking with him on the and I said there are three mistake in taps from jar to kas to they all made mistake in this war.

[00:27:11]Uh then he told me what are these I described it that this doesn't say It says that stefast they are steadfast to provide for women. That's that's the meaning of it. But they change it. We have to keep it. We have not to escape from this controversial day. We have to face it.

[00:27:40]And that's the way as they face it.

[00:27:47]Thank you for your extraordinary thought which is I learned a lot. Now it's my pleasure to invite and introduce Mustafa Akuler present the central argument of his book. Mustafa A is a senior field at KU institute center for global liberity and prosperity where he focus on intersection of public policy Islam and modernity. Al Mustafa is writing several books in English and Turkish. Mustafa floor is yours and you have here the >> Malamikum and good evening and thank you very much for graciously hosting me at the Hana Mevlana Rumi House and uh first of all thanks to my good friend Minister Midrise Bali for organizing this event and we were together at the Ko Institute when we were actually launching this book and it's of course it's an honor to be at the presence of great scholars like Muan and others who you know joined us today. Now uh we all know that Talib since Taliban came to power five years ago in Afghanistan. It is dictating its own understanding of Islam to all Afghans.

[00:28:57]Uh they have this famous ministry or infamous how you recall it ministry for the propagation of vice or virtue as they call it in English. The Arabic term as I assume is the the ministry for commanding the right and forbidding the wrong which is a Quranic concept. Uh and of course actually Taliban is not the only group that is doing this in the in the world today. If you go to other places like northern Nigeria at the Acha province of Indonesia uh the Iranian you know Gasters the morality police had similar prospects.

[00:29:34]So there are some Muslims who think that they should make other Muslims better Muslims not by preaching but by forcing them to wear a hijab to leave a beard as they told you to not listen to music to go to the prayers and if you don't go they will force you to go to your prayers right now this is going on and when this happens a lot of Muslims intuitively say this is bizarre. Like if I'm going to the mosque because you're telling me to do it, not because I want to worship God, there's something wrong with this because I should worship for God or a Muslim lady should choose to wear a hijab as a sign of her piety and we totally respect that. But if it is she's forced to do that by a government, is that a good idea? So Muslims are thinking about this and a lot of Muslims intuitively say this is wrong and no wonder the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion but no the Taliban would tell you because the compulsion in religion doesn't mean that as Osman said they would say no compulsion in religion only means that if you're not a Muslim if you're one of the Jew or Christian if you're an atheist that's not even probably considered but if you're a Jew and Christian you stay in your religion under Muslim rule. So that's the amount of no compulsion in religion that they they allow. But once you're in the religion uh actually you can be forced to practice your religion and if you leave the religion you will be killed for apostasy which the point that Osman uh rightly pointed out based on interpretation of one hadith a few hadiths that you know they refer to. Now the scholars who wrote this book uh and who wrote parts of this and I brought them together and I wrote many parts of it and and chap certain chapters of it.

[00:31:29]We are pushing against this coercive understanding of Islam as we call it.

[00:31:35]We're saying we should take as a broader principle not just for the non-Muslims. It's nice that we don't coers them but also for our fellow Muslims too. Right now there is one chapter in the book that I want to a little bit especially speak to you about because it's a chapter about how this verse was actually used in the classical period in this broad sense and it was used against a group which very much is like the Taliban.

[00:32:11]It was an Ottoman group called the Kadisad.

[00:32:14]Has anybody heard about them before?

[00:32:18]Yeah. Kaduad was a Kadu Zade. He is like the son of a Kad was a Kadi Ahmed was a preacher in 17th century Ottoman Empire. A very fiery preacher and his views ultimately created this group called Kadisadis. And they created a big influence. They they had a big influence. They created a big chaos in 17th century Ottoman Empire. Some scholars called them proto Wahhabis that they sim they had similarities. I could call them the proto Taliban too.

[00:32:56]So but but the conversation between the Kadisades and the scholars who opposed them are very interesting. That's why I I wrote a chapter on this book and I think it gives some in insight to current discussions.

[00:33:08]Now uh this was the time the 17th century maybe you watched Ottoman soap operas Turkish ones are very popular magnificent century you know can sultan the Ottoman Empire had this great time like they were the superpower of the world in the uh 1500s like that's the 16th century right >> but when you come to the 17th century 1600s the Ottoman Empire starts to lose some of its power they're not victorious that much in the battlefield anymore Europeans have better technology ies and you know they're trying to come up with better techniques and military techniques and developments and infrastructure. In the meantime, the Ottoman Empire starts to have problems with it. There are rebellions. The bureaucracies not efficient. So the Ottomans are sensing that something is going wrong in the 17th century. So what is going wrong? Two Ottoman scholars wrote very thoughtful article essays or books on this resale or like short books. Uh one is Kochibbe the other one is Katip.

[00:34:12]And they pointed to problems like problems in the taxation system. There was a very heavy inefficient taxation system crushing on the population. Let's fix that. Or there is corruption in the military or bureaucracy. Let's fix that.

[00:34:24]or Kathy criticized the decline of rational sciences in the metrices like geog geometry or geography and all that kind of thing.

[00:34:38]But Khadisad this very puritan group they had a different idea. They agreed that the Ottoman Empire is going down. But I said the they said the reason is guess what?

[00:34:52]Bida innovation but bad innovation. It means heretical innovation. So they thought that there are bida in in Ottoman society that the government allows and these heresies are the cause of the decline of the Ottoman Empire. What are these bida? Sufism number one. They thought that Sufi practices room definitely would not be popular with them. Uh Sufi practices like me levies turning you know around the verling dervishes or any music and chanting and Sufi orders. They said this is allida and they have this has to be eradicated.

[00:35:28]They campaign on the government to close down the Sufi orders. They physically attacked some Sufi orders saying right because they concede something has been a heresy. They gave them the authority to physically try to eradicate that. Also they said under the prophet peace be upon him Muslims had just one minate. In Istanul you have these big mosque with six or four minates more than one mina right? They wanted to tear down the minates of Sultan Sultan Ahmed mosque or Sulimmania mosque and so on so forth. They thought using spoons is vidat why the prophet ate with his hands. Well, I would tell them well there was no spoon in prophet's time in the desert. So like it was a custom of the time. Uh but they said so using vida. So they wanted to get people leave that and they want they told spoon makers leave this find another vid also they were very worried about a new drink that became popular at the Ottoman Empire at the time uh some scholars were unsure about whether this is halal or haram but it's become popular there are people are getting together and drinking together it was this very popular drink probably we all drink every day today if I do it every morning. It was coffee.

[00:36:50]Kaf as Turks call it kafa from the Arabic original. Now coffee goes back to Ethiopia in origin but it was used in Yemen for many years centuries ultimately became popular in the 15th century Ottoman Empire from which it went to Europe. So actually Europe got coffee from us right uh now but some scholars were not sure. They thought coffee is like intoxicant haram like there were some fatwas against coffee accept this view. They said coffee is ba and haram. So they they wanted to ban coffee drinking also smoking smoking had come from the west tobacco smoking. Now they had these ideas but ultimately they convinced Ottoman Murad IVth uh who was a heavy-handed sultan worried about sedition all all the time to uh actually declare a policy of banning coffee houses in the Ottoman Empire where people were getting coffee and smoking.

[00:37:42]The Sultan was also worried about the coffee houses because it was a place they were talking about maybe politics and so he had a political angle too but he agreed with the khadis idea of this bida and ultimately the sultan murat in 630s declared coffee and tobacco as haram and bida and an excess ex a crime that deserves execution. So just smoking would getting you killed. Drinking coffee would get you killed. And uh this was a ferment you know said to so on the streets and actually there are stories of sultan he changed his clothes at night he was going around the city and if somebody is drinking wine let alone or smoking people would get executed for that. Ottoman scholar Katip Cherib tells how Ottoman among Ottoman soldiers smoking had become very popular. But uh during the expedition to Baghdad, the sultan said if anybody smokes, execute them and a few people were found and they were executed. But the soldiers who executed them also were smoking when they could find a chance. You know, because it has become a very fashionable thing. And Katib Cherabi says men desire what is forbidden. You know, it was such a stupid policy. I believe now this went on for a while and ultimately after Sultan the fourth, you know, this policy changed and ultimately kadiz were obsessed about this. about this policy way and then coffee shops ultimately became popular. They're still in a stumble as in parts of work. But this was a time that the for just for drinking coffee, you know, you could be in danger in the Ottoman Empire, which is they considered as haram. Most Muslims didn't consider as haram, but they were saying commanding right and forbidding wrong. So they were giving them the authority to use government power, sometimes their own aggression, you know, to to go after Muslims who think different from them. Now the question is how could you respond to this with with a worldview like that?

[00:39:30]Well, we find this response in the writings of two scholars. One is Kat Chenvi that I mentioned. I'll come to him. The other one is even more interesting because he's a directed religious scholar. Kathy was a polymat writer about everything on religious issues too. But the religious scholar was Abdul Ganiel Nablusi from Nablus Palestine as his name shows.

[00:39:52]He was an Ottoman scholar who hanfi and maturidi and also naki bendi. So he had a sufi angle as well. He was an Ottoman scholar who lived in Damascus. Damascus was an Ottoman city at the time. And he has a famous book which says making peace between the brothers on the issue of smoking. Like he says well some consider haram some don't. Let's make peace on this like some can drinks like smoke some. He was trying to make things work more in a more reasonable way. He was a reasonable scout now against the Khadis which of course condemned the Sufis too which was he was a Sufi so he saw Khadis as a problem and Kadis were very active in Damascus at the time as well. So Kadisad had a famous text which they were inspired from Muhammed Burggiv's Tar Muhammad Burggivi was a kind of influenced scholar which inspired now he wrote an along like a book which criticizes this book titled Alhadika al- Nadia the dew moisted garden very interest to me now here he pushed back against the teachings And in one passage he discusses this issue of commending the right and forbidding the wrong.

[00:41:10]I don't even care. Now traditionally this commanding right by it's in the Quran obviously we we we don't doubt that but this was conflated with the office of hespah is a police institution in Islam in classical Islam and we know that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him established the firstbah in Medina appointed somebody in the marketplace but its job was preventing fraud in the market so it wasn't making people pray or things like that and it's not reported It was about making sure nobody commits fraud in the market which is necessary I think in any fair society. But so this commanding the right and forbidding the wrong and hpo was conflated. So commanding right and forbidding the wrong was seen as a police function in many classical texts.

[00:41:58]Uh and this is the idea that the khadis are using. He pushes against this. He says his play is a police function. But he says commending the good and forbidding the wrong is a matter of the tongue. It's a matter of speech and advice. And he says this is the truthful opinion. So is a police thing and yeah police in every society you need police against crime or fraud or murder or stuff like that. But when it comes to religious issues of preaching on which there are different opinions he says commanding the rights and for the wrong is a matter of the tongue there. Then he continues because he says God Almighty said the truth is from your Lord.

[00:42:39]Whoever wants let him dis let him believe and whoever wants let him disbelieve. He quotes the verse 1829. He continues and says the meaning of this verse is not to force people obey the command and avoid the prohibition.

[00:42:55]He quotes in other words uh God Almighty said to his prophets do you want to course people until they become believers and he quotes and God Almighty said no compulsion in religion.

[00:43:09]So this is a very interesting classical case where we have a Ottoman Sunni scholar quoting the verse against coercion within Islam not just about and so on so forth. Why this is important you may ask? Because actually if you look at traditional interpretations of no compulsion in religion you see that unfortunately some of our medieval scholars minimize the influence of this verse.

[00:43:38]They actually rendered it ineffective in some like they actually said it's abrogated.

[00:43:47]It's in the verse it's in the Quran but it's abrogated. Abregated by what? The verse of the sword. They thought that some verses on jihad actually abregate no compulsion and religion. The other verses that I just read, they consider them as abrogating. This was their opinion. We don't have to accept this. I mean the whole theory of abrogation has been rightly criticized in the modern era. Second, most scholars limited to just not forcing people to enter Islam.

[00:44:11]But here al- Nablusi uses it within Islam.

[00:44:15]So in other words, no compulsion in religion, no exceptions inside Islam, no compulsion as well. Now uh Edmabusi doesn't even stop there and he says something more. He says all these khadis kind of people who try to go after people because they're not pious and so on so forth. He also criticized their motives. He said these people claim to be very pious and the most good best Muslims. But he says that he sees in them an urge to elevate their own very selves. He says they could be driven by, I'm quoting, boastfulness, seeking fame and self-praise, harboring personal grudges, despising others, satisfying their own ego by looking down on them, seeking superiority through that action, aspiring to leadership over people. like he's criticizing these I'm better than you Muslim coercers saying well they're actually elevating their own self right they're putting them to a position of power well I can rule over you because I'm a better Muslim and I'll beat you if you don't do that and you you have to have way so they are elevating their own opinions and their own party so he also underlined that now one more thing the scholar that I mentioned he also has a wonderful book translated into English many years ago misan hak That's the original balance of proof plus the English translation and I use that in the book. He also writes about the kadisad that is he shows how he uses how he uses the term stupid how stupid this whole campaign or coffee at tobacco was because it didn't change anything in people's behaviors. People just did it secretly and if they like it they still liked it. And then towards the end of the chapter on this in Muzan Huck he says he has an interesting passage. He says the most noble prophet Muhammad peace be upon him used to deal kindly and generously with his community. The arrogant men of later time, not seeing the disgrace of running counter to him, label some of the community as infidels, some as heretics, some as proflegates, like sinners for tripling reasons for unimportant reasons without fear of God and shame before his prophet. They bring the people to the grievous state of fanaticism and cause dissension. Most fighting and strife between Muslims arises from this cause. He wrote this 400 years ago about inner strife among Muslims about who's a better Muslim and who can impure dictate what what so Jatene also in the same book makes the same argument that kadisades have a right to preach their doctrine but they shouldn't force it on other Muslims. Now kadisades ultimately lost their influence on the Ottoman Empire but they did a lot of harm. They actually campaigned for the second bi siege of Vienna which which thought that since we're doing a lot of ember mu here we will definitely have victory at the battlefield which turned out to be a disastrous campaign and actually pushed the further empire into decline. Then in the 18th century you don't hear much about them anymore but many Ottomans realized I mean these guys are crazy basically and their influence declined and later the Ottoman Empire got a lot of real reforms. They were not obsessed about bid out like coffee or things like that. Reforming the military, bringing in European advisers for sciences and and military reforms and other things and so on so forth which actually helped the empire a lot. Uh but the lesson from here is this.

[00:47:51]This was one chapter and two Ottoman scholars there openly wrote that this idea of one group coming and dictating on other Muslims what they think as true Islam it goes against the chronic principle of no compulsion and religion.

[00:48:06]It shows their own arrogance but not piety their their lust for domination of other people and it brings nothing but just fight over people. So I think the the lesson I take from that is beginning today. So this most fighting and strife Muslim between Muslim arises from this cause finally let's finish this in the 21st century you mean this this trouble.

[00:48:28]So that would mean in Afghanistan if the Taliban believes for example music is haram great then don't listen to music right very easy solution I mean you don't have to go and break the musical instruments of other Muslims right Muslims have different opinions about whether music is haram or not if you think western haircuts are bad don't that which is actually not a ficky issue but they have that sort of thing okay uh then don't have those kind of haircuts yourself I mean other Muslims don't have to agree with you. So of course governments should have basic fruits that they enforce like security, safety for general and these can be democratically legislated but one particular view of Islam. If you think that a Muslim woman should not go around without a male, good you can preach that and the Muslim ladies who agree with that can always go with a mah. But other Muslims ladies can agree with other preachers who say this whole mahamm issue was about security in a very dangerous environment. It's not relevant to it today. So there's no problem with women's motion. So the issue is can we have governance in Muslim majority countries where we are not enforcing one view of Islam on everybody else like the Taliban does like in other other cases where we basically have general rule of law and security for everybody but people follow are free to follow their own persuasions and I think that'll be a healthier society. There will be less conflict over religion and that would be better for religion because one result of coercion in the name of religion is injustice and a lot of oppression and society and ultimately it harms religion itself. We see this in Iran. The Iranian republic Islamic Republic enforced hijab for 47 years 45 years at least a few years after the revolution.

[00:50:17]It actually ended up having a society where a lot of people hate the hijab and burn on the streets and so on so forth.

[00:50:23]It didn't even achieve its own end of piety. So piety is a wonderful thing when it is genuinely practiced. But Muslims can make their own choices in their own lives and we should respect you know Muslims following their own opinions and and their different different sex and interpretations and we should we have a basis in our scripture which we can take as a principle and those who tell us ifra is abrogated or just limited well we don't have to agree with them and that's why we wrote this book to show how we can actually push back against some of their arguments.

[00:50:57]Thank you so much for all three of you talking. I learned quite a bit. Um, I have written a book called Women in Islam in the Quran, women in the Quran, where I've picked all the verses of the Quran that mentions the word woman or pronoun of she and I put it just in Farsy translation, not of my own, but of somebody that's known as a translator In doing that, I had to actually read about 20 different translations of the Quran in English and Farsy and French and a couple in Pashto.

[00:51:47]And one of the texts I realized is that you know most of us in this room we do not read our religion in the language that it's written and neither do you in Turkey because we Arabic is not our language and most everybody who's not an Ara reads it in a translated form And in these 20 translations, one of the problems was that every translator have different interpretation of verses.

[00:52:32]I find that now okay a 100 years ago the Muslim world did not have many many scholars of the Quran or Islam. But now the world of Islam has changed and we have very many really terrific scholars and also technology has um advanced.

[00:52:57]Could it be possible that we could have some normalization of the translation of the Quran? For example, a minimum definition of what is hij, what is your stand on rule on Ramadan?

[00:53:18]Many there are many many things. Is that possible that we could have that? Maybe not a group like this, but maybe Muhammad bin Salman can collect a group of people that would create this kind of normalization.

[00:53:34]Thank you. And I'm sorry that it's a little bit different from what you talked but I think it's important and cogent to what you all talked about.

[00:53:41]>> Thank you for your point. I mean I wish there is more agreement among Muslims on some basic issues. I agree with you on that. But I also think there will be never full agreement on everything and and that's normal. Uh I think Christians don't agree with the Bible means a zillion things, right? Still for look at all the Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox and so on so forth. But curses solved one problem. They were killing each other for from be for being the wrong sect. They were actually much worse than our situation. I mean a few centuries ago, look at this religious wars in Europe. uh Protestants and Catholics slaughtered each other in the middle of Paris and all across the European continent that and out of which they started to think about ideas of religious freedom and toleration and thinkers like John Lock you know played a big role and you know that that's a beginning of liberalism in Europe and and toleration is a part of that religious toleration I think the problem I mean today like what does hijab mean I mean uh there are different views I mean for Taliban it is something close to burka right I for a lot of mainstream Sunni scholars if you go to Turkey it's maybe it's just a headscarf right some people say actually maybe it was a historical thing maybe it's not even there are some modernists who even go to a different direction my argument about is that there will be different views there will different interpretations let every Muslim be able to follow the interpretation he or she finds most persuasive and it can change regionally and so on so forth unless of course that interpretation is a violent interpretation >> we can I mean we can agree on different practices, different different understandings and prayers and so on so forth. What is not acceptable is using violence or coercion to impose one interpretation of Islam on that. Uh now the interpretation of the translation of the Quran into languages at 20th century mostly a phenomenon actually made the Quran much more in brought the Quran to public Muslim consciousness. More Muslims read the Quran today. That's actually a maybe a good development in terms but also to think that this will lead to a general agreement on what true Islam is. I think that's not going to ever happen. But true Islam is nonviolent Islam. I can tell you I mean there's violence of course to defend ourselves when we're attacked but not nonviolent in terms of enforcing the religion or dictating it on other people. One thing I can say about women in the Quran is that when you look into like reading the Quran in context is I think very important what I understand you know as a Muslim who's been grappling with these issues when you look at what the Quran is doing in its own context it's always helping woman in in the in the face of some trouble a woman come and complains to prophet or Aisha about some injustice and then a revelation comes and defends the woman so there are several stories of that so now we might not be in the exact same context so we might need a more interpretive approach to set off these injunctions. But I think we can fairly say that the Quran was a scripture that really elevated women in world history and advanced their rights.

[00:56:48]>> Uh thank you so much. My name is Rashim Yah. But my question is what are what is the exact measurement? I mean what are the measures who can decide who who is the the individual who actually kills who actually uh change the religion and what is the rule of governorhood in this so I think that is more uh important in this society because I mean is it specifically a rule of an individual to do this to to actually decide or it's a government or if it's a government is that a secular government or it should be a shar alone. I think that's more important than contemporary work.

[00:57:29]>> Uh thank you. I mean that topic apostasy is one chapter in the book. I didn't even actually say anything about that but it it's a long discussion that we have and Mu Osman's approach to the hadith is also very interesting and I I value that perspective. Now what we argue in the book what we I mean say Dr. Abd has a chapter on that and I work with him closely and I agree with his arguments. So what is argued in the book in the apostasy chapter is that apostasy should not be seen as a crime. People should be able to leave Islam if they're not convinced by Islam anymore. We don't want that. We're not going to promote that. But it happens. People change hearts. Some people become apostates from Christianity and enter Islam. We say, "Oh, welcome brother. You're we hug him." If Christians went after him for apostasy, we would be probably very unhappy with that. Uh now how can you make this argument when there's a hadith in say about this? Now how we make this argument is first of all there's nothing in the Quran about punishing apostasy in the Quran apostates are punished only by God in the afterlife.

[00:58:39]>> Actually in the Quran I think also mentioned that there is a verse which said those who believe and then and do and then disbelieve and then believe again and then disbelieves. It mentions people who just back and forth between Islam and and it doesn't tell them any earthly punishment. There is simply no earthly punishment in the Quran for killing somebody for leaving Islam as a religion. God takes care in the Quran generally. God takes care of the theological errors or crimes. If there's an earthly crime, there's punishment. There's punishment for theft. There's punishment for for murder. There's punishment for which is dandry. There's punishment for false accusation of adultery or adultery which is a which creates a unknown child and lineage and I think there's a social aspect of it but there is no there are other things in the Quran having false beliefs and polytheism and all that it's it's left to god so now what about the hadith why do then the hadith speaking about that now mutsman's argument is very interesting I will look into that the interpretation that uh we have in the book is something like this there are two apostasy hadiths Uh one is whomever leads his religion religion kill him changes his religion kill him bkari. Another one which is actually also in but in other books uh maybe two says a Muslim can be killed for only three things. One is murder if he murders somebody. The other one is adultery.

[01:00:11]uh third for uh leaving the religion and deserting the community, betraying the community, right? Something like that, which is okay, leaving the religion. But that hadith has an other version again in the Sahib books. Uh which says not, it doesn't say leaving the community. It says waging war against God and his messenger.

[01:00:34]So when you put this and in the context of early Islam, the I think the argument we make is that the apostates they had in mind are people who just just change their religion and peaceful to sit there who leave the Muslims and join the enemy at a time of war and there are cases like that and Abu Becker's Abu Becker campaign on apostasy also is like about state rebellion against the state. So we make the argument that I think the concernment apostasy was about violent threats. You leave your community but you join the enemy. And if you do that in the modern era any soldier you leave this army and join the other army. Yeah.

[01:01:19]They will execute you for that. I mean right that's a wartime situation dealing with treason with a clear implication of threat to the community. That is different from people conscientiously changing their religion. Right? And no wonder in the tradition there are actually views on this. For example, the Hanifies don't give the death penalty for women.

[01:01:43]They only give it to men which reflects the view that men are soldiers and you know they are they are the dangerous ones. Right. Second, some Hani scholars actually initially argued that apostasy apostas should not be executed. they should be just invited to Islam until they come back and that could be open-ended right so we make the argument that apostasy should not be seen as a crime in the modern era so nobody should be you know executed for apostasy if somebody leaves the Muslims and joins the enemy and throw bombs against them yeah that's a crime that will be a crime if he's a Muslim too so I mean that that dangerous element should be separated from religious convictions third I mean the argument there is I mean the traditional view says basically if somebody apostasizes from a stop you should say come back you give him three days if he doesn't change his mind he's executed right >> like what do you achieve there exactly like in this three days the guy says Islam was such a wonderful religion I left it otherwise they would kill me but you know I know I saw the light I mean probably you will end up having a hypocrite actually who hates the religion because you're threatened and which is actually I mean what you see around the world I mean there there's a groups called ex-Muslims right they're generally not very happy with Islam and some of those people go very fanatic and I don't definitely like their you know very biased attitude but we might be causing that sometimes by saying that the punishment for you is a death penalty because you just change your opinion right I think we should not of course promote anyone leaving our religion but if they do it's their freedom of conscience and you know what maybe that guy will live for 10 20 years and then he will say you know what I saw the light again I came back Muslim and we can say hug him and and and if he doesn't that's his choice that's between him and God so that's our approach >> we have examples from the prophet time about those who left the faith >> and one of them is kada he became Muslim then he became non-Muslim and changed the faith during the prophet when when he left prophet didn't send a person to Kelly and never mentioned that mus has to be >> kept until he became a rebel against the governance of Muslim in government of Medina which is the important in this case we have to also remember that Muslim had two situation one is the hijra they have to be immigrated. One is to do jihad is only possible when there is a legitimate elected government in Islam or Muslim society.

[01:04:38]Otherwise, jihad is not allowed as well.

[01:04:42]Jihad is not job of a person, not job of a group and not job of someone who is not obeying the head of stake, the legitimate head of state. Thank you.

[01:04:56]>> Thank you very much doctor for this presentation.

[01:05:00]Uh a comment and then a few questions from you.

[01:05:03]>> Sure.

[01:05:04]>> And before the comments, I think you still need another install at least. Are you reading back to fight against the smoking in Turkey at least at this time? I believe this is not the only ayuranim who talks about compulsion in his there are a few other as well >> and for example one this ayah like God himself >> truth has become manifest.

[01:05:34]>> Exactly. Now it's up to you what you want to do but you will be not you will not be left alone. There will be a punishment for you in this word maybe not but in the other word yes that's what the Quran says as well and there is another as well but no if you want there's punishment in the after >> exactly afterward is there because the the government what they do they leave everybody to become non-Muslim that also create a problem for for peace and security as well in the community.

[01:06:15]So what will happen then the government I believe has a choice to push tazir or put tazir we have tazir as well what those taz are about but make it in a nice way so that in order to keep the discipline in the society as well as pave the way for the others to choose whatever they want. The third ayat says that the other democratic sur not only there are several other ayat they live exactly you tied the bit on one of them so there are but the thing is how you reconcile this ayat with the other ayat let's not talk about hadith hadith got compiled after 160 or 70 years after prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam died so all all hadith in is in in Bkari It's really true. That's a lot of uh argument there as well. But let's talk about Quran only.

[01:07:25]>> Yeah.

[01:07:26]>> So there are other ayats so that they somehow does not allow the way for people to to become non-Muslim if they want. Right? So how you reconcile these ayat when those ayat that they give the the permission to muslim to Muslim to whether they become Muslim or non-Muslim the things but my question to for you is other than the person that you quoted in the 17th century who said that this ayat is applied for Muslims if they become non-Muslims. uh you took you you took a name >> let me in the classical era I think Nablusi's use of within Islam among Muslims is I think is an exceptional example Kativ also makes the same argument but he's more of like a sociological argument he says you know people can do their own ways don't don't bother with them he doesn't use in this and Nabusi might be the only exceptional person who used in the classical era in this in the modern era of course Now what you ask about the Quran is very important.

[01:08:35]Now all the verses you read uh 29 to your religion to me mine many of them actually all of them were considered abrogated by some scholars why they thought the worse in surahba uh about fighting the polytheists right uh until you know uh if they have to convert to Islam or you fight them. They thought the verse of the sword they call it like that later many centuries later it was called like that. They thought this cancels out more than 100 verses.

[01:09:17]>> Yes.

[01:09:17]>> Right alone you referring. Yeah.

[01:09:19]>> Uh so they thought they can I mean this was their choice. We don't have to understand the Quran in in this sense.

[01:09:27]Now there's a new approach that we support here. The Quran doesn't cancel each other. The Quran is speaking about different context and different modes. I mean, if you are in a war situation with a deadly enemy, you got to fight them.

[01:09:40]But that fighting command cannot override many other commands that actually says do not fight them unless they attack you. Or we says or which says leave the punishment to God or it says you're not a coercer over them, right? You're not a guardian over them to the prophet. What happened that the Quran took place in a historical experience right in the beginning Muslims started to preach in Mecca the fruits of Islam the message of Islam they just wanted not to be persecuted they said to you your religion to me mine that's it right they just wanted to be left alone if the Meccans left them alone actually there would be no jihad nor no no no the Meccans didn't let leave them alone Mecca was not United States or Canada or Norway or anything like that. They didn't allow Muslims to live and practice and preach their religion. So they persecuted Muslims. They killed them. They tortured them. So Muslims had to go to Medina. Still there were innocents in the city. Their houses were plundered. So they started a military campaign and that military campaign brought new attacks on them. Then that there are 10 years of wars and there are verses addressing those war situations.

[01:10:52]and TB the one of the long the longest surah the last last longest surah of the Quran not longest but very long surah which came towards the very end of the prophet's mission to surah nine that includes this war situation with the pins and also there are the people of the book who are allied with baantium and who are military threat to Muslims so these verses are addressing these very deadly enemies and saying fight them and fight them to take these verses as the universal Islamic approach to other people. This was a decision made by some medieval scholars. We're saying that we respect those scholars. We understand why they thought like that. It was a war of empires also. You know they they war was a normal situation at the time. But today we can instead understand understand as those verses are exceptional wartime situations and we do not abregate any of these verses. So we are actually calling for the revival of the abregated Quran here and all those verses are actually establishing in our view universal principles.

[01:12:02]Does this answer the question or >> well somehow but if they are abrogated what what they do in the Quran then?

[01:12:08]Well, abrogated means it's not taken out of the Quran, but they abrogated means it's in the Quran, but legally non-applicable. That was the argument.

[01:12:16]>> So then we say that the Quran is applicable all all words is applicable on Muslim. If it's not applicable, then what what they do in the Quran? Then that's the question again.

[01:12:26]>> No, first of all, I don't think everything in the Quran is always applicable.

[01:12:32]I mean, there are clearly verses that are not applicable. dos of >> verses about how to talk to prophet's wives they're not applicable today because prophet's wives died a little after him so that that mean there are verses about slavery and concifying that institution has gone away luckily so the Quran is responding to a historical situation I think the right approach is what the Quran is doing in that historical situation it is declaring a principle of your religion my religion I'm not a guardian over When Muslims are attacked, they have a right to defend themselves. They have ultimately a defensive war concept there. And not every commandment in that war I think can be taken and especially taken as a universally binding application which some scholars did. I think we can say that Muslims were Muslims came to a world of war. There was a Byzantine Empire, there was a Sassanid Empire in in Arabia was a war of tribes fighting each other. So if you don't fight them, they come fight you. So you started to think in this in this war. That's why for example our medieval scholars thought that Muslims can be safe and practice their religion only in the Islam, not in the which is the enemy territory. You can't go there. You can't live there.

[01:13:58]which is very true. In medieval times, you can't go London and open a mosque and they will come and kill you. I mean, there's just there's no sense of Muslims and their rights. But today, we are in what? Virginia, right? We have mosques and and Islamic institutions. We can give da Oh, there's a new concept of law, religious freedom, and so on so forth. So I think our medieval interpretations took place at a time when Muslims inevitably thought that like what's the alternative to living under a caliphate and daughter the Mongols who come and slaughter millions of you the crusaders who come and slaughter millions of you but today actually sometimes Muslims are safer in the right >> that which is what we're doing here right I mean like we're doing better here than in Afghanistan but I mean that's a fact that is not a reality none of our classical medieval scholars could imagine. So their interpretations of the Quran took place in this I think uh imperial militant millio. We respect them but we can today say well we don't have to make the exact same decisions about which verse is abregated versus the other one. I believe the Quranic verses on war are exceptional situations whereas the verses about non-coercion non-aggression are the universal principles.

[01:15:21]>> Um very nice to uh listen to this lecture I and uh that for all the speeches that you are presented have very timely discussion and the question that I have is a little general but not off topic.

[01:15:36]Um I grew up in Malaysia. I studied at the International Islamic University.

[01:15:43]Um that in early 2000s was a place for uh each jahad. They had a very uh I would say modern uh attempt. there were there was a strong attempt in modernizing uh the FEP and um I read about your experience your unfortunate experience that you had there and I have been um informed by my contacts there as well that um the country is moving towards extremist we have political structural uh extremism in Afghanistan we have it in Iran There's some trends in Turkey as well.

[01:16:29]And while the move towards extremism is very political, very structured and institutionalized, we do not have a force for modern Islam that will combat this.

[01:16:47]There are many great scholars that are working individually like yourself and many others that you know I um very eagerly follow that are making this attempt but this is it's not a coordinated attempt and what are some of your recommendations in instit institutionalizing these efforts so we don't have more of the Muslim countries that personally I always regarded Malaysia as as the kind of best place where different religions came and people could practice whatever they wanted in the early 2000s. I'm told it's not the same right now. And and this is very concerning um for the future generations because just like the youth in Iran, they are I would say sick of religion. you know if I say anything related to Islam they will stop talking to me and for us to open the debate in such a way to make Islam attractive interesting for our youth and this is why I brought my daughter with me to this talk because I wanted her to have the other angle to Islam and not just whatever the news that we hear about my country about what the Taliban are doing back there with girls with women and human rights in general. Thank you.

[01:18:13]>> First of all, what happened Malaysia?

[01:18:14]Maybe I should tell people it's a great country, beautiful place. Go visit it.

[01:18:19]It's very nice. I I've been there six times. What happened in the sixth, you know, time was I gave a lecture on the Zabas issue and I said we Muslims don't need to police religion and the religious police arrested me.

[01:18:37]I was defying their job. So, they had a point on that.

[01:18:41]Uh I mean they arrested me one night and you know luckily the next day I was like let go. But you know for that night it was a little bit scary experience. They said two years in jail. You know that's what's expecting um but I mean is Malaysia extremist? Now the term extremist I use it cautiously.

[01:19:00]I use terms extremist like really terrorist groups like I mean ISIS, al-Qaeda, you know, those groups are definitely Malaysia I think don't have that but they definitely have an intolerant approach to some religious issues uh including issues like apostasy. It's a little of a national thing too. I think Malay is by definition Muslim so they don't want to lose the identity as well. And of course they have practices like banning books left. My book was banned right after that. for several years in Malaysia. Uh they ban books by Karen Armstrong who's a very pro-Islamic western writer. But something she says there doesn't fully fit as a something like that. I mean well there might be things in books you don't agree with but then you can write a rebuttal against it and that's how societies grow and mature. Exactly. Right. So yes, there is I think a little bit uh illiberal I would say or intolerant conservatism in Malaysia in the religious ministry jakim you know actually in Malaysia I it's in the book they write with with a parenthesis inside is written like this there's no compulsion in entering the religion.

[01:20:17]So what's the difference? Because if you say just entering the which means you're not going to force you to enter the religion but once you enter there is compulsion inside right that's the point that's why you have religion police that's why apostasy is not allowed or very difficult or complicated in Malaysia and so forth uh Saudi some Saudi translations which is discussed in this book I mean I show those I I I learned that after I got arrested like I I should have known this before uh now how do we deal with this. Now, what you told me about I don't see you.

[01:20:54]What you told me about Iran is interesting because societies learned by experience.

[01:21:04]Individual scholars, intellectuals, writers can promote certain ideas and it's important that they do that. But sometimes societies tilt towards that way after taking some lesson. Right?

[01:21:17]Iran has taken a really bad lesson or g is giving us a bad lesson of religious coercion. Iran did that and as you told me I mean these days Iran is under attack. So that's a different discussion. I don't I hope I hope to see peace there right away without anyone more killed. But other than that I mean they ended up raising a very militantly secular generation actually especially the Iranian diaspora. I mean some really and actually disturbingly sec like fiercely secular people. Well maybe this is a historic experience or imagine like I mean certain Isl groups came to power promising wonderful things none of them really failed. So maybe this this is the time where we are testing some bad ideas. Now that's why it's important to put out the good ideas out there and to promote them. I don't know when they will become more popular or not. these these fluctuations in your ministry go that way. One more thing this conservativism or intolerance is happening everywhere looking in this country some of the Christians in this country. So maybe we are in a kind of a low point in world history with with some turbulence ahead a little bit scary comparing to the you know early 20th century some dramas in the west as well. But I think the best thing we can do is to preserve ourselves, our families, protect ourselves and to try to understand this big picture and and try to look for interpretations of our religion that are really conscientious. Like there should not be a really tension between the religious command and what our conscience clearly tells like I am doing this because God tell me and if that person is doing really something morally outrageous, there must be something wrong with that. and we should be able to look into that. So, it's important to put out those interpretations out there.

[01:23:10]Now, uh how do we do this as a well, I'm working on it. I mean, I'm trying to speak to audiences and work with people and friends. So, this book will be translated. It is being translated into Persian, Udu and Arabic and we will distribute it freely and and through our network. So, we will do events in in other parts of the Muslim world as well.

[01:23:28]I don't travel to Malaysia anymore. I mean, so I'm a little bit after that.

[01:23:32]I'm a little bit careful about my travels like my might ban me from traveling east of orumble is it I mean we're working on it that's what I can say and that's why I think one more thing Christianity move towards religious freedom and toleration also after terrible experiences at the worst time like John Lock is very prominent like in this like he wrote a letter concerning toleration read it it's amazing that he's speaking about our issues almost like back in the day and he went he wrote this only after Christians had terrible religious wars and persecutions. Actually seeing that is sometimes the beginning of going uh forward towards a better future. And I think that might be the case in some parts of the world. We don't have that problem everywhere but in some parts of the bus