Did DMK push Tamil Nadu into debt as Vijay alleges? | Talking Sense With Srini

追加: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]Tamilnadu has a new Chief Minister, C.

[00:00:02]Joseph Vijay, and when he took oath as Chief Minister in a signature style, he also did something every incoming government in India does. He said the previous government made a mess, to be precise, a mountain of debt of about 10 lakh crore rupees. But is that the full picture? And with the DMK, the custodian of the Dravidian model for decades, now in opposition, does this election mark the end of this economic model that balances growth and social indicators?

[00:00:24]On Talking Sense with Shweta Vinay, we dig into the economics the fault lines.

[00:00:29]With me today, as usual, is the Federal's editor-in-chief, and along with him is also our special guest, economist and scholar of the Dravidian model, Professor Kaliyarasan.

[00:00:38]>> [music] [music] >> Okay, so let me begin with Shweta Vinay and sir first. You know, Vijay in his inaugural address at the Nehru Stadium blamed the DMK government for leaving the coffers dry of about debt of about 10 lakh crore.

[00:01:00]You think he's making a legitimate allegation here? Yeah. Let me begin this congratulating you because you are from Gen Z.

[00:01:06]>> [laughter] >> This seems to be the case with you and you're a namesake, too.

[00:01:10]So, it's interesting times.

[00:01:13]Uh but then his speech was extraordinarily different. It had all the imprint of a non-political speech. It was almost like a audio release in a large stadium where I'm sure he's used to in the past also he must have done lots of audio releases. And he, you know, interestingly, he spoke very dramatically, which is all very unusual.

[00:01:35]Lots of >> the governor had to interject. But one thing he said, which is very usual to politicians >> That's right. to kind of a caveat, "Look, you know, your expectations are large, but then I'll have to fulfill, I have to do a lot of work, but the previous government is leaving the coffers empty. So, that's why I probably he said 10 a crores debt. I'm sure a bureaucrat or somebody has slipped in this point for him to say there is a rear guard action. Mhm. But I think this is becoming usual practice in the you know if you remember when PT Palanivel Thiaga Rajan took over from ADMK government he made a similar remark and he said you know I'm going to come out with a white paper and he did. This government should also do something like that. So I think I would discount that it's a more of a political statement which he made. Otherwise I feel Tamil Nadu finances aren't that bad though they have a whole lot of programs continuing and he himself has announced a whole lot of things. I mean I was asking some of our colleagues so they were saying you know what attracted them one said you know free bus ride.

[00:02:44]I said this already exists they said all over the state and then increasing the stipend for women from 1,000 to 2,500 rupees per month. The announcements look very nice but when it turns and take shape of a scheme then you would see something different. Okay Professor Kalaiarasan your thoughts on that? No let me join you both in congratulating new Chief Minister Mr. Joseph Vijay and it's really remarkable. I think it's a probably unprecedented I would say in history in recent history that that kind of scale of victory won and second the support that he enjoyed across sections of population. I think it's a very very remarkable. We must congratulate him on this and with respect to the question of whether Tamil Nadu government is indeed in a fiscal strain yes but his statement of white paper I think should be we should welcome that. It is because it's a transparency. It is act of you know bringing your government or your fiscal condition clear. So it's every government must do. I think the previous government as uh Mr. Srinivasan mentioned that it's a previous government did it PTR when uh when DMK came into power in 2021 and the white paper came and they actually said that the previous 10 years of the ADM ADMK regime uh or made things worse tough. I mean, the fiscal condition was really bad. So, now with the last 5 years uh I think now we have another cycle. I think it's good to It's kind of stock taking. It's kind of auditing of of you are actually getting into the new government. So, obviously you should do what is available, what is there, everything is in order. You just you are doing a stock taking. It's good to have that. And it is in fact helpful with students the citizens should know what is the condition that the previous government left and now what you are going to do given our promises, given our challenges, this is what within which we have to operate. I think I would welcome that uh uh statement of white paper and white paper should be brought out and should be discussed threadbare as to what it what what actually how the financial condition and both both in terms of revenue and expenditure pattern too. And because there is concern that many raised that whether some of the policies, some of the schemes came at the expense of other kind of, you know, productive investment. There are a lot of debates around about that among the economists. So, it's good to have I would say of the white paper and we'll welcome this this kind of interventions, I think. I would take that, yeah. All right, sir. But what do you expect in a white paper? Just for our viewers to understand, what exactly is a white paper? What do you expect there? White paper is kind of a, you know, just that it gives a statement of all the you know, it's kind of an audit. Uh it won't be a serious forensic audit, but largely what is the things which have been done in the past, what were the promises made, how much delivery was, and what are the various macro indicators which they promised and how much they couldn't fulfill. And also they would say how much of debt is on the papers, what are the various departments dues are. If they are able to go into more details, they'll also be able to say that how much of resources generated by this internal resources generated by this government as how much came as a aid from center and those kind of a broad definition of what happened in the last 8 to 10 years and various outcomes. I think that's what largely a white paper is. It's more of a CAG report. No, CAG report is something different.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah, it's a constitutional body. CAG does is a constitutional body. It's auditing of the official auditing. This is here is a kind of a stock taking of the house in a way of you leaving from one government to others by the government here but that is a different that is a constitutional body. But do we have these kind of mechanisms at center as well? No, well there is no formalization that any government outgoing government should present a white paper. There's nothing like it.

[00:06:34]White paper is more like a kind of a political statement to tell the people that look we are now taking stock of whatever happened in the past and we'll present that to you.

[00:06:45]That's what it means. Okay, so you know so there is no legislative constitutional requirement.

[00:06:52]There's no mandate that there should be a white paper when the new government comes and it should present on the previous government. There's nothing like it. The Dravidian model was the center was the crux of in the DMK's governance there.

[00:07:04]You know, you think DMK is is now out of power. You think it's the end of Dravidian model? No, I think I must say here which has actually been stated in many newspaper and many commentator has been making this comment that is going to have a complete and alternative vision is going to have a great break from the past. I don't see that happening. Why? Because the Dravidian model is not something is uh uh pertaining to particular party. It is not really you know, connected to a particular party. Of course, many party I mean of course within Tamil Nadu context both the DMK and ADMK both can equally legitimately claim ownership to that. So it is not definitely to do with DMK alone. So it is an idea. Dravidian model is an idea where the growth can take place along with the degree of inclusion and development. Why this actually model business came into picture first of all in the debate? It is actually we all know that few 10 years have been I mean like 10 years before a decade before there was a big debate within India about how different states are doing in growth policies or their economic policies. Some states Some states seems to be doing really good in growth but not in development.

[00:08:11]And some states are seems to be doing really good in development particularly in health and education but not in any productive, you know, of industry and you know, having widespread manufacturing all etc. But Tamil Nadu seems to be completely different from this narrative and in from this pattern stands out with a great record that it actually does well in growth as well as in development. So, that is actually is a in a nutshell Dravidian model the definition of Dravidian model all about.

[00:08:39]So, in that sense I don't see this is a clear break from of the past. If If following is strictly its speeches and following is even their manifesto, it clearly suggests I don't see it's a break. In fact, it actually in fact enhances that.

[00:08:54]Its question is there are fault lines in that. When you actually implement any idea, of course you have a different ways of doing >> Now, what are those fault lines? So, the fault lines I would say following. That is actually longer debate in fact to understand even that also tells partly helps us to understand about the mandate of this of this new government. So, what is the mandate of this new government? We can actually track that fault lines from this mandate. The mandate here clearly the youth particularly not happy with the the current model of growth. Why the youth are not happy? That is very clear now. If I would be sociologists would come out and tell us who actually voted and you know, across section, class, caste, all of that analysis we'll get to have later. But for the immediate response we clearly suggest that it is a largely the youth revolt, I would say. So, why the youth are angry? Why youth are unhappy with things? So, there I guess actually one see the fault line, which is in the following way. One, obviously this model definitely has produced economic growth. This one point is a single point as double digit to a lot for last two consecutive years in particular your double digit growth 11% and this year is 11 10.9 or something.

[00:10:03]So, double digit is great.

[00:10:05]But did that growth reach across sections? That's right, yeah. Did this growth generate enough jobs?

[00:10:14]Did this growth generate decent wages?

[00:10:18]Is a question that one has to reflect on. Of course, this government definitely did a good job of the previous government on welfare.

[00:10:25]But the welfare cannot be a compensation to the legitimate jobs that one support one is supposed to get. Because Tamil Nadu is the one state which actually has achieved great in in many ways of educational achievement in the sense of educational like GER gross enrollment ratio. In the sense almost 50% of our youth are in college university. So, which is a really serious this is a dream for many youth. Once they come out with after the college, obviously one would like to go to jobs. One would like to go to the get a job. This we all had this our desire, right? Going to school and going to university then get a job.

[00:10:57]So, when that is not materializing for a range of reasons. It could be the quality of education. It could be although even the jobs are not available from the growth that is taking place in the sense kind of companies that is coming in now doesn't not generating enough jobs. So, it could be both of the quality of education also also partly of the the the kind of growth that is taking place. It could be both. So, which actually I would think as a single most reason for disappointment of the youth. Mhm. Which is jobs, decent jobs.

[00:11:28]Because I am told the ecosystem on Tamil Nadu our politicians, leaders, statesmen everybody says education is the way of mobility. That is a promise of the Dravidian model. The education is the only way of the problem, you know, mobility given our so many deprivation that the individuals is suffering from which is education or caste, class, etc. So, when you got educated and that education doesn't get you a decent job then that means there's something wrong with that system. That is I guess is the is the anger that the youth is led. I would say something You are right. Let me jump in.

[00:12:04]I will give more political explanation of the continuity which has been happening.

[00:12:09]Which we discussed earlier also briefly, but I would just recall. See, like he says correctly it is growth versus development. There are states like Gujarat which have done probably growth and not development.

[00:12:23]There are states like Kerala which has done excellent growth, but development is somewhere Just for viewers to understand development meaning education and health. Health, poverty, education poverty, education and you know broad-based well-being of Growth is simply increase in per capita income.

[00:12:40]So, so the both have to be balanced. So, what happens in a state like Gujarat, there is you know, there is a good performance as far as the industries are concerned because of large industries petrochemical, this and that.

[00:12:54]You know, Reliance is there, Adani is there. Capital intensive sector. Yeah, but you go to Kerala, they have very nice educational outcomes and HDI index is very high. What Tamil Nadu has done and that is his study only which has actually balanced the both. It's an all-rounder basically. Yeah, basically a better balance, more widely spread balance. So, this is the basis and which happened because of not just the Dravidian rule, it basically comes from the Justice Party legacy. They are the one who first invested in education.

[00:13:24]They wanted to and the first Chief Minister and you know the Congress CM Kamarajar in a way institutionalized it you know by enrolling children in schools with midday meal and other things. Then the next Chief Minister Annadurai and the subsequent everybody carried on that legacy and even if you know Vijay, he wants to carry on because if you remember when the students passed 10th board and 12th board, he actually gave them prizes. So he also wants to encourage education. So there is a certain continuity as far as Tamil Nadu is concerned. There is a unstated agreement among all political classes here that we have to do these things what comes may. So the social policies here whether it is you know equality in terms of education, health or other social indicators which are very good here, you know the birth rate, the life expectancy rate, all these are result of this. And also on the other hand, social equality. That you know the caste lines, you know annihilation of caste as Ambedkar wanted that hasn't happened but at least there should be an equality.

[00:14:37]The society should be more equal. Those kind of things forms a bedrock of Dravidian politics and in Tamil Nadu you cannot do politics by wishing away this.

[00:14:46]This is the foundation on the top of which you can build other things but you cannot go away from this. So Vijay is also not going away from this. In fact he has made it very clear if you look at his various icons he has picked up, he has picked up Ambedkar, he has picked up Periyar, he has picked up Annadurai, he has picked up Kamarajar, he has picked up I think Velu Nachiyar and also the environment Anjalai Ammal. He's picked up everybody.

[00:15:13]So it's a statement which he has made.

[00:15:16]But the difference which this new generation of people Gen Z as we call, what is it they want to see is what Kalaiarasan explained.

[00:15:24]>> Jobs. That, you know, you have you're doing very well as compared to all other states, but it's not enough to compare yourself with Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, all these states. You are, you know, it is admitted that you are ahead of them, but what next? See, there are so many engineering graduates come out of the colleges here, and therefore the gross enrollment ratio is very good. It's 50%. The annual National target is western countries.

[00:15:52]The the national target is 25, 27. We have double of that, but when the engineer comes out, is he skilled enough?

[00:16:00]Can he Is he employable? I mean, those are the questions. Is he quickly able to get the jobs uh which he wants? If not, uh here, somewhere else, and certainly there is a churn happening. AI is coming in. There is a not so much the kind of jobs probably I think if you can also, you know, put this in a perspective. So, what is that actually the youth are upset with?

[00:16:27]I mean, when the state has been doing relatively well with most of the parameters with respect to the other states that as you guys have mentioned of Gujarat or UP, Bihar.

[00:16:37]See, so as a one of the pioneer in terms of this comparative what they call as a comparative political economy or comparative subnational political economy, it is a great idea to do an academic comparison as to why some states are able to do in a particular way of doing growth and development as compared to others. As far as that, it's great. In the that that level, it's okay of having this what is your parameters of education, health, industry, whether you are going simultaneously growing or it's there's a divergence.

[00:17:09]But when you do a when what actually youth are concerned in the state are the large population concerned is not this comparison between what how other states do. They are more concerned particularly with this what you how you do in relation to your neighbor here.

[00:17:25]Here, now, then.

[00:17:27]So, which is actually more important than what people do in Bihar and UP? Whether your education gets your job, whether your health institutions are better, whether your governance is good, whether you are able to do things that you want to do, and the things that promised has been whether delivered.

[00:17:47]Also, these kind of questions are the more important too. That's how you you would relate to. You will not be relate to the abstract idea of what Tamil Nadu does vis-a-vis with UP and Bihar. That is good, but that is for good and academic exercise or a policy exercise.

[00:18:01]But end of the day, it has to translate into the people well-being, and that has to resonate with their lives. These ideas of comparison, ideas of Dravidian model, ideas of this Gujarat versus Tamil Nadu, Tamil Nadu versus UP Bihar has to End of the day, that's what I would say.

[00:18:16]>> to remind you something again, and which you know that we went to the book release of Arvind Subramanian, and spoke to him. Arvind Subramanian pointed out something. There are two kinds of India.

[00:18:25]In the '80s, if you see compared India with China, we were our development we were at comparable. We were at the same level of development economic.

[00:18:33]>> Per capita income same. Same. Almost India but Today it's seven China has gone far ahead of us.

[00:18:38]>> Yeah, seven times Seven times per capita. But he did point it out. There are two Indias. There are some states in India which clicked the same kind of growth.

[00:18:46]>> Yeah, yeah. There are Chinas within India, he said. So, there are Chinas within India, he pointed out.

[00:18:50]>> Very much. It's just And what I would say is Tamil Nadu is not a China within itself. Tamil Nadu would any day qualify to be on the same range of what you call as a track record of China relatively.

[00:19:00]And given our manufacturing base, given our you know, of growth drivers. But yet, what actually Tamil Nadu suffers from is of the what I would call the second generation of social policy. Which is the first generation of social policy is ensuring you all your kids are in school.

[00:19:18]Ensuring you get an access to higher higher education. Ensuring you get your food proper. You don't suffer anybody Nobody suffers from the basic food. What What economists call as an absolute absolute deprivation in the sense you don't have food, you don't have school, you don't have health. So, first generation reform all of first generation policy all of them been addressed. In the sense you get a school you go to food. You get your access to school. You get access to health center.

[00:19:41]Even probability of getting into higher education is much higher. Even after job higher education even probability getting job is job is still better. But what actually Tamil Nadu requires is not enough. That is not enough. Now you need to get the next level which is whether the school is good. Whether the learning is happening in the school. Whether the college that you go it teaches you good skills. Whether the skills enough to whether those skills taught at the school colleges are enough to get a job.

[00:20:08]Who's that actually matters now. Whether it's not having access to health. It is not having a immunization that we used to be one of the main concern for the most of the state even in the North India. But that is not concern here.

[00:20:20]Here the concern is the quality of the health. Remember our Tamil Nadu is also society of aging society. There's a different demographic structure. Yeah.

[00:20:27]So, it has a different set of problems.

[00:20:29]We cannot be thriving on our old debate understanding that where does Tamil Nadu stand vis-a-vis quantitative parameters. We need to move from that to see what it actually means to the people's lives. What it means to the quality of lives. So, that is actually more important. Then I think that is what drives it. Again, you should also understand there's a generational gap. So, probably this Gen Z the generation that the youth actually their parents may be knowing what actually made them possible to make the you know kind of the person the people they are now in the sense of becoming middle class or you know the mobility upward mobility they acquired. But these kids don't have they have only they they they see it's all given. All of these you know, you're supposed to give all of this of education, health which is I don't think it's a struggle even your your other social policy of you know, social justice or reservation policy range of all of this actually is is for for youth it's given.

[00:21:28]But what they are concerned is when you make so much tall promises, you're not able to deliver on qualitative terms in you know, that is actually is angering them. I think that is actually legitimate anger. We cannot say look therefore is it don't don't don't ask all of these questions. Look at where does Tamil Nadu stand visa-vis UP on IMR and MMR and manufacturing. That is good. Of course, we we should compare that but that is for the academic purpose or for some policy issues. That is okay. But as far as the people life is concerned they are concerned about what was your life today or yesterday and compared to yesterday what is your standard today and how much you do how how you do relate to your neighbors. You don't you're not concerned about what's happening in UP and Bihar. I think that's what you need to bring in that. I think we spoke extensively about youth now. I want to focus a little bit on on the mandate what has happened here. If you the Dravidian model the crux of the Dravidian model has always been yellow yellow. Basically subka sath in a way.

[00:22:21]So but if you take a deep dive into the voting patterns, you understand all those minorities are moving away from the DMK to the TBK. That's been the mandate in 2026. You think the Dravidian model has left out Dalits?

[00:22:33]And I I tried asking this question to former Industries Minister Mr. TRB Raja as well. Couldn't get a concrete answer from him because if you look at lots of you know, growth has been coming in from high-end manufacturing. But if you look at the agriculture and the inefficiencies and all that, the growth has been flat. I think you know, again, we have to be very careful while discussing the subjects.

[00:22:52]Dalit in Tamil Nadu aren't the same like Dalits elsewhere because of the last 50-60 years of 60 years of reservation and things.

[00:23:02]Uh whole lot of people have benefited and they also come up up in life. In fact, there is a study by Harish Damodaran saying how a number of Dalit entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs of other communities and castes also come up and he has given a lot of such examples. So, again, it's not a very homogeneous thing within here.

[00:23:22]So, there are Dalits who have done very well.

[00:23:25]Uh yeah, he seemed to have electorally got more. Again, probably because many of them saw the groups like the VCK's Dalit party have not been able to give the kind of benefits which they expected from him. That they're not able to get what they think is due and has not been delivered. So, it's also a question of, you know, non-deliverable coming from them because if you look at the alliance partners of DMK, Congress has no Here I'm little explaining with the politics it. Congress party has broken away from this alliance. It's a neat, clean break.

[00:24:05]And they which is what DMK is calling as a backstabbing. But they did it because one of the problems they are facing is the party was unable to grow on its own and it was always under the shadows of DMK. That's right. And they were also not getting any, [snorts] you know, any place in the cabinet. So, once they get elected they become MLAs, after that their job is over till the next election.

[00:24:30]So, they were not able to expand their, you know, their own appeal, not able to do anything else. And I think this problem is also for other partners.

[00:24:39]Therefore, VCK was also demanding that, "Look, why don't you give us some share in power? Because the the aspirations of a whole lot of people will be fulfilled if the other parties in a coalition also get direct participation in governance, which is not happening." I think that was the one of the reasons that these parties were unhappy.

[00:24:58]And all other formations, whether it is left parties or VCK, were were kind of morphed into a part of DMK.

[00:25:07]So, probably they thought that here is someone else who could be more promising and and also it appealed to the youth. I think that could also be one reason for them to break away from that. And then uh what TVK's apparently got huge Dalit votes as well. Or like you said, minorities and others. I think the expectations when within their own communities, within their own community leaders, are not able to fulfill, they look for new avenues. I think which is natural.

[00:25:34]That's what seemed to have happened.

[00:25:35]Okay. I think we should add to Srinivasan's two points on the respect to the economic aspect of caste.

[00:25:44]So, one obviously, as rightly mentioned, today if you think of in a comparative sense, Dalits in Tamil Nadu would definitely do well vis-a-vis say of Dalits in the other states. If you take take any indicators, even if you take the education GR, gross enrollment ratio, it is around 38% or something or 40% of it, which is in fact better than what upper castes do in say in the UP.

[00:26:07]But that is not the point. Point is how much Dalits do vis-a-vis others here.

[00:26:12]Yeah. What is the gap? It's it's a always we need to think we should be mindful of. When we do a comparative, we need to go and compare to what is the relative variable that you are comparing with. Mhm. So, we have to say relational. So, what is the inequality is always about relational. What one group does vis-a-vis others in the neighbors.

[00:26:28]Not what someone does say in the other part of the state. That's a different but it's that's you that is useful in to thinking. It's like in economics what do you say that, you know, rising tide lift all boat, right? When you have a growth actually, obviously it takes care of.

[00:26:43]But have we done enough to address this gap into group inequality [snorts] here, within here? So, that is one important point that we need to So, in most of the indicators actually you would find Dalits are doing better vis-a-vis others. But, is that okay with the respect to other groups here? How much this gap is narrowing down between Dalit versus non-Dalit here? So, even some indicator even if it has come down of course it is there are some indicators obviously one can find education, health, and even the entrepreneurship as you rightly mentioned. But, there's also more than that to inequality because this is again new research is coming up, you know, globally not here. Even if you look at why the oh you'd say whites in in America upset, you know, going with the Trump. Or why in many communities in Europe upset with the traditional left parties and moving to the right. Partly there's new readings coming from say Thomas Piketty or this Michael Sandel Michael Sandel from Harvard. So, some of these scholars argue are the different diamond dimensions of inequality. What is the mean different dimensions of inequality?

[00:27:47]Generally we when we think of intergroup of the caste intercaste, you know, kind of analysis we do we normally think of income, wealth, education access to education, access to health. That's first cut important. But, what what actually triggers the youth these days not just here across the world is also question of self-esteem.

[00:28:08]Question of dignity. Absolutely.

[00:28:10]Question of association life. How actually you are treated in in your society, in your community. How your fellow travelers treat you. Do they respect you? Do they get the corresponding respect. So, that mutual respect, self-esteem, dignity. I think that is what actually drives us of anxiety in most of the society. I think that is also very much applicable with the kind kind of thing that we are here the kind of challenges that we are facing particularly within the Dravidian model.

[00:28:37]I keep [snorts] repeating this because it is not been addressed, it has not been discussed much. While Dravidian model has really done good job with the respect to quantitative indicators or material factors getting access to food education health but it has not done enough addressing dignity it has not done enough addressing self-esteem it has not done enough addressing association life among the different caste and communities so those fault lines continue to reproduce that is why you see if there is a material progress of one community then you see the resentment pull out resentful of the other communities and you see the continuous violence against Dalits it is precisely because that the second aspect of self-esteem dignity association life have not been addressed enough which is not only here it is a global concern and the economies and the social scientists have addressed and defined this I think it is a time now this election also gives I think I would read this as a mandate is partly not addressing that aspect of of the governance which is a qualitative in the sense of the dignity association life and self-esteem I think that is the main fault line with respect to caste or class or even in the generational problems >> All right let's go back to the first question you know before we wrap this up you know the question I asked you at the beginning is what Vijay's allegation is and you know if you look at the the manifest I think both of you agree with the with the idea that the Tamil Nadu's debt levels are still stressed in a way and I think I want to ask sir there you know Vijay's manifesto also screams welfare with a capital W there so you know do you think he'll be able to bring down those debt levels under comfortable zone >> well basically you're asking whether he can manage both welfareism with fiscal balance >> consolidation consolidation or fiscal balance whether he can see there are certain mandates which are provided by the center that like FRBM act and all I think Tamil Nadu is doing pretty good in that it's a question also that our own internal Tamil Nadu's own internal revenue generation is actually far high I think in one of our previous discussions only pointed out that it's 75 25 75% of you know resources we are able to generate on our own.

[00:30:51]>> ability to pay back. No, no. Our own, yeah. So, our own true so that we can finance whatever schemes here are on 25% is what comes from uh you know, from the center and this is inverse for Bihar. That's what That's the data he gave. The for 75% they actually depend on the center only they're able to generate their own internal resources 25%. Is it enough?

[00:31:13]Because again, the aspiration levels are here as we are discussing is far, far bigger. You know, so that's what new generation of youth are pointing out to us that look, all what you have done is fine, but then We need more. We need more. So, can how much he can stress or stretch the finances to provide all that is a big question and how he is able to prioritize that, in what order he gives. Well, those are the big questions which he has to sit down and go to the drawing board and do all this.

[00:31:48]I won't be negative about it. I won't dismiss it. I mean, it's a great opportunity and he also in a way understands those sections very well because they seem to be connecting to him. And the way he you know, connects to them in public meetings and other places which seems that he has some kind of a connect. I'm sure his inputs while framing these policies will be very important. So, what we are seeing is a very different kind of culture emerging here. I I know I know I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to give you an opportunity to go viral here.

[00:32:19]>> [snorts] >> So, you know, Vijay has said that he asked for more time, you know, to implement scheme that he You think he's genuine in in terms of asking for more time?

[00:32:26]>> No, very much. Obviously, since you're forming a new government, you need to know of what is the condition of the house. So, you need to know, you need to get a stock taking of. That is precisely the white paper. No, but in terms of the in terms of the debt level, he says you know 10 crore debt.

[00:32:39]10 10 lakh crore debt and you know I need more time to implement the scheme that I put forth before you. You think that's a genuine Yeah, which I think I would say if you want today you become a chief minister of the new thing I would say you would like to know of the what is the financial condition of the government previous government whether the promises that you made coming to government whether we implementable within this financial condition.

[00:33:01]>> But critics say look you know you could have done this you could have put forth the manifesto before having a look at That is means you first you do the government then you write a manifesto right? You can't write a manifesto to come to the power. So once you come to the power you need to know what is the condition of the finance. So as certain said I would repeat like the two things I would like to emphasize here. One is uh with respect to uh the financial condition what is actually the concern?

[00:33:24]It is not just about the level of debt.

[00:33:26]It is so Tamil Nadu is actually well growing like double digit growth.

[00:33:29]Obviously the two condition has to fulfill whether the finance is good. One whether it is in the ambit of sustainability of debt and borrowing.

[00:33:37]How do you measure the sustainability of uh debt of debt or borrowing which whether the ability of your income. So if you are able to uh generate enough income double digit growth is okay.

[00:33:50]Second aspect uh is to how do you spend that money? Since you are borrowing money and borrowing with the you know it's every every rupee that is borrowed it's borrowed on our names.

[00:34:02]Yeah. So how qualitatively you spend that money? But if you look at the >> how prudent you are you spending that money? If say for example instead of spending money on X sector compared to Y sector if whether the rate of return is higher there than this are you spending uh in in >> But are you spending on building assets?

[00:34:20]We don't know because the revenue deficit is 1.6 >> precisely the point. Now you need to say one is where that money come from and how sustainable the debt whether you will be able to repay one set of question second set of question, how good you are spending and all the money you are spending.

[00:34:36]>> A lot of these money is going into interest payments. Uh And second is operation expenses.

[00:34:40]>> my point, whether it is going to the interest payment, salaries, and pensions, or it is going to create a productive, you know, of the asset. That is something one has to have a debate.

[00:34:48]It's good to have a debate. So, even if you do a welfare, I mean, if part of this money is borrowed, is being spent on welfare, it's good to have whether this welfare is good better than others. There are many ways of doing welfare. There is no one way of doing welfare. Remember I said >> But how approximately you think it it will take time for Vijay to start these schemes?

[00:35:05]>> No, obviously it's as as former Chief Minister mentioned that he is going to give 6 months time. I think let's have a let's get this white paper out and let's scrutinize that white paper and how the what is the condition of the fiscal condition of the government. Then you will reflect on.

[00:35:22]So, beside this, I also want to make another point, something that senior most staff mentioned with respect to aspirations, Mhm. which is very important thing, which is I think it must be debated. I think it itself requires one full show on it. I think I really urge you to do one full show on aspirations and achievement. Why?

[00:35:39]Because Tamil Nadu again is the probably one state in the country where it actually generated aspirations among the youth that everybody can achieve something in their life. Mhm. Everybody can access as you say all of them there is there is something and something a promise, a social promise, a kind of kind of normative promise attached to the attached to the individuals that you can do something.

[00:36:02]But that promise is not being fulfilled.

[00:36:05]Is something that youth feel betrayed of the aspiration you generated by, you know, of range of intervention, which is good, which are good in themselves, no doubt.

[00:36:18]But the system, the kind of things available both in terms of jobs and other condition is not allowing individuals to our youth to fulfill their dream with this aspiration. This disjunct at the gap between the aspiration and what they achieve is I would say is a anxiety that they are in the drives the youth and some of them get upset and anger. I think that is actually get I would say result in the the mandate. I think it's a great reading. See, I I I did an ideal scenario, we should have discussed all of this very threadbare in a in a much much you know many years before, you know, we should have not even waited of this mandate to come and to discuss about to what went wrong. What is wrong with the Dravidian model? In fact, we should have discussed in threadbare where is what is the aspiration and why this aspiration is not fulfilled being fulfilled and it definitely Tamil Nadu created aspirations among the I think I would like to say one more thing here that you know when Zenzi revolu you know kind of outbreak in Nepal happened and Sri Lanka happened and Karthik Chidambaram referred to that and I think he made an important point. He's a politician, he's a member of parliament. He he pointed out something interesting. So when these kind of things happened, so here the political class immediately pointed out that look these things doesn't apply to us. I mean these are distant I mean we don't have that kind of economic distress or you know problems like there was a different kind of problem in Nepal, there was a different kind of problem in Sri No, I think there's a common I must say here.

[00:37:53]>> But here yeah, so but the here it the the problem may not be the same but then there are symptoms in some other form. I think that's what I think and there was enough time for them to see through this and the the political class here was going through their normal you know doctrine approach if I may say so more theoretical and more intellectual in the sense not able to see see changes probably. I mean in the hindsight, everybody becomes bright, maybe even I am, but I think that could be >> No, definitely. You see, there is a globe that I mean, as I mentioned again, this new forms of inequality that emerges. I think that that we need to be mindful of. That is I think it's being missed out by politicians, even scholars have not done enough in understanding of the new See, as I must repeat again, it is not to say that what there's a completely wrong with the model that been followed are the practices social policy or the public policy or the politics that been followed. No. Obviously, some of this actually really address the core usual hierarchy that that was part of here.

[00:39:00]It's a feudal caste hierarchy, other forms of old hierarchy. But the new forms of deprivation, new forms of issues, which is like as I mentioned, dignity, respect, you know, all of that actually we have not really articulate, we have not really address. I think that is what driving the youth. Youth are actually impatient to listen to your traditional left, right, all those capitalism, socialism, all those package they are not they are not concerned about. They are very much concerned how much it matters to my life. Absolutely.

[00:39:31]It has to relate to my life. Okay, so That's what it matters.

[00:39:34]>> Okay, one last question both of you and you know, lots of open letters are going rounds on social media. Editors of you know, very newspapers writing them, you know, policy experts are writing them. So, you know, I tell you this video first. So, I'm going to come to both of you. Your message for the new Chief Minister C.

[00:39:51]Joseph Vijay, your suggestions, criticism maybe and you know, what do you think that he should be doing for Tamil Nadu? That's correct. One thing actually is a it's a which is which is which is universally tested is to be open to people and be open to critic.

[00:40:07]Because government is a government democracy is a government by discussion.

[00:40:12]Mhm. The discussion here I mean, it is not simply policy coming from the above.

[00:40:16]It is also how policies implemented and how those policies are received by people.

[00:40:23]This information has to happen both way.

[00:40:25]Okay.

[00:40:26]>> Right? So, that is actually is a great if if the moment we do, we all actually learn. It's learning by doing.

[00:40:31]Government is learning by doing. And also must congratulate him even most of them happen to be a newcomers. It's a great thing. We all do we learn by doing things. And many of them happens to be a maybe a first time MLAs, first time ministers. It's good. It's great. So, that's what democracy is all about. But question here is how much we are attentive to, how much we are open to new things and how much we are open to accept the critic. As long as that openness is available, I think we'll do wonder. Mhm. Wonder actually of given our our history, given our you know Tamil Nadu is in a great that way of as a longer history of doing things and improving people's lives. And if you're open enough, I think we can understand the new stuff, new ways, new ways of doing. I think that will people learn from people actually of new ways of doing. As long as you are open, I think we'll do a wonder in that. I think that is the my message to him. Yeah, so I'll be more functional in that. Look, it's very clear that the new the generation is looking at things differently and they have huge expectations from him. Obviously, the expectations are very large and they want him to turn around things. That's why they elected. So, that way he has kind of a all already begin a new beginning by reaching out to you know, he want to end with the previous enmities and all those kind if he could take today's you know, so he goes and visits the leader of opposition.

[00:41:56]>> That's a great gesture. I think it's a great gesture. We should welcome He goes and meets all of them. So, he's probably building a kind of a political consensus. He's trying something new. He gave tickets to all sections of people.

[00:42:07]He didn't restrict to some you know, even Dalits got tickets from general constituencies and won. There are others who got So, his He seems to be doing all this which Kala is also kind of agreeing. But then, functionally, I would say that having known all this, he should now order specific studies, prioritize what he wants to do because that's really important because he has to remember again the Gandhi's thing of look at Daridra Narayan. He has to start from there.

[00:42:36]Because this aspiration doesn't end with one class of people. It starts from there and to the IT company because an auto driver son and an auto driver has voted and as much as an IT worker, both of them I mean, IT employee >> are different, you who's sitting in in AC classroom, he also seems to have voted for him. So, he has a large spectrum. He has to understand that and frame the policies. All right. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Pleasure talking to you. Thank you. Thank you.