'Pak Grooming Gang' Whistleblower | Margaret Oliver, Ex-UK Detective Constable Breaks Silence |WATCH

[00:00:00]Margaret Oliver, former detective constable, is now joining us. She's been at the forefront of exposing uh or leading a crusade against the the park rape gangs in the UK. Miss Oliver, thank you for joining us on Times Now. I want to begin by asking you what did you see?

[00:00:20]>> Well, I was a police officer. I was a detective um in Greater Manchester Police and my first experience of what we call grooming gangs or rape gangs was in 2004 and five. Um and I was completely shocked at what I saw. Um I worked on a on a job for about 18 months. Um and in that time we'd identified 97 child rapists. Um over three dozen children. It turns out now it was almost 70. Um, and my husband was terminally ill and I went off work to look after him when that job was a major investigation. I came back a couple of months later and the whole job had just been buried. It had been closed. None of those child abusers were charged. No prosecutions. The children not protected. Everything just closed down as though it had never happened. And I was in total shock. Um, I did try to get something done. Nobody wanted to listen.

[00:01:20]Um I went back to my normal role which was working in serious crime on murders really not on child protection and then five years later I was asked to join another case that was identical um became the rotale case and even though I was given cast iron guarantees that there would not be a repeat of what I'd seen previously once again I saw that case being mishandled um insufficient charges vict victims being failed, uh people turning away, um even a child who was made pregnant when she was just 13, where we had DNA where we knew who was responsible for her rape. Um he was a 43year-old married man of three. Even that man was charged eventually with conspiracy to commit sexual activity with a child. You could not have had more evidence of rape of a very vulnerable child in a special school.

[00:02:17]And I then had I spent 18 months in the as a police officer going to the chief constable to the home office to the children's commissioner trying to get someone to listen.

[00:02:30]>> You did everything you could but nothing changed. We'll talk about the institutional failures of the establishment, you know, in just a bit.

[00:02:38]But you the reason we are having a conversation with you is to is to you bring to four the rot of the rape gangs.

[00:02:48]Many people are still you know waking up to the to the horrors that are mentioned in the report. As a detective constable what did you see? So someone who does not know how your rape gangs operate.

[00:03:02]What do they do? How do they do things?

[00:03:06]What would you tell them?

[00:03:08]What what they would do on those cases was was pick very vulner they would spot vulnerable children. Now on Augusta those children lived in children's homes. So the abusers would wait outside in a car, pick the children up or pick them up from school and then get them drunk, take them in a car. Those children were already vulnerable. That's why they were targeted. Um and the for me the issue is we will never stop child abuse. But the issue with this kind of crime is that the state protective agencies, the police, the prosecution service, social services deliberately turned away because they for me there were three factors. The children were often from difficult backgrounds. So they were not going to be um there was nobody fighting their corner. The second aspect was that the abusers were almost always Pakistani Muslim men. And if they were not Pakistani Muslim men, they might be Afghanistani, but they were still Muslim is um Iraqi Muslim from Iran. That was the racial um makeup of the abusers.

[00:04:16]Yeah. The profile. And nobody wanted to be accused of being racist. So they threw the children on the scrap heap.

[00:04:23]They allowed the abusers to continue to abuse. And the third aspect that they didn't put the the correct resources in.

[00:04:30]They didn't want to waste money on children that they made a decision didn't matter. I always say if this had been Boris Johnson's daughter or Karma's daughter, this would never have happened. It was because the children that were being targeted by the gangs were um were vulnerable and nobody cared. So instead, those children were criminalized. They were blamed. They were abandoned. their lives were intolerable and they were completely on their own because nobody was fighting for them and and I resigned from the police because I'm a mom of four children and what I saw went against absolutely everything I believe um children have to be protected and as a police officer my job was to uphold the law and >> no I have read about what you've gone through personally you lost your career you lost your income you've had a harrowing time yourself you know in taking up these cases, speaking up uh against the system so to say. Now let me just break break this down uh for our viewers to understand.

[00:05:38]>> I can understand you know when politicians uh fear being tad racist or islamophobic because you know they have to go fetch votes. But when you approached your seniors in the system in the police department, are you convinced or you know are are you of the opinion that they were also under pressure from you know the powers that be to play this down to bury the case?

[00:06:05]>> That for me um that that is irrelevant.

[00:06:08]I went to the chief constable. I went to the home office. I gave them all the evidence of what was happening. and the chief constable, even though he knew exactly what was going on, they all knew, you know, I was um accused of being a woman who became too emotionally involved. I'd lost my husband. So, I was basically, you know, losing the plot. I was middle-aged. Um I those were, you know, they they tried to shoot the messenger in me. But by the chief constable saying those things, I I went through a very uh traumatic time. It it it completely changed the rest of my life. I lost my home. Um I lost my career. Um I lost my income. Um I ended up in a little flat with a lodger, you know, with four children. Um it completely derailed my life. But I knew that my children one day, if I'm not here, would put the television on and they would see what had happened. And I wanted them to know that I had tried. So I made the decision that I would go public. But I was threatened with prison. You know, the the information I had as a police officer was confidential. But I faced that fear and I decided that wherever it led, I was going to speak the truth. And I've been speaking that for 15 years. So when I see many politicians now, you know, talking about what's gone on, this is not new. Um what is new is there is now an international spotlight on it. But it, you know, what's come out in the last few weeks, um, I've been speaking to people and supporting, uh, victims for 15 years. My charity, um, I set it up, the Maggie Oliver Foundation to support victims and survivors of all kinds of sexual abuse. We've helped 5,000 since 2019. This is not new for me. But >> would you would you like to, you know, tell us about the specific patterns, if any, of how the the park rape gangs operate or operated?

[00:08:13]>> In the past, as I say, they would, you know, the rapists would turn up at outside school or outside a children's home. Um, usually a young younger men, young men would pick the children up.

[00:08:25]They would um target them because of a vulnerability, but then they would take them out for a pizza or give them a bit of jewelry or give them some fun. And these children were starved of affection. Often many of them on my first job, all of them lived in children's homes. They had no family around them. They had no love. So the men offered that. But then as they befriended them, they would bring in older men and then it was time to pay back. And you know, some of the girls have said they've been in a room. Um, one one girl in particular, one of the Rodale girls said that, you know, one white girl would be in the middle of a circle and the men would pass around like a ball. So maybe 20, 30 men would rape that child in one night. They would give a vodka and so much alcohol and the children would eventually start to use the alcohol as a way to numb the pain.

[00:09:19]And when they did go to the police, the police would uh would more often than not blame the child. You know, they were making a lifestyle choice. They were sexually promiscuous. These were 12 and 13year-old children. And when I saw that and and how they were being treated as as I didn't have to be a police officer to know that that was wrong and I was completely horrified. But that has continued and still to this day none of those senior police officers or even home secretaries because this went to the top of government. Um none of them have been held legally or criminally to account. Um and for me that is unforgivable. They are responsible for the destruction of so many.

[00:10:05]>> Absolutely right. the enablers you know all these people that you're talking about who are part of that you know the chain of command must be named shamed and the harshest punishment under the law >> must be handed down so that you know a message is sent now Miss Oliver tell me something you know one can understand patronage but you know would it be wrong to say that there was there were also cases of money exchanging hands you know the local the the local you know so-called uh uh the most influential leader of that community go to the police and say that look you know these are our men you take what you want let this go I I don't I mean I am aware of police officers being involved in the abuse I'm aware of money being exchanged to buy the children so I on on the Rodale case for instance we had um a premises that had a long list on the back of the door with all the abusers named. Um, and every time that abuser took a child to that house to to rape, there would be a tick and at the end of the month that man would pay the the the man who ran the apartment a certain amount of money or he would charge money to pass that child around to other abusers. So, I'm aware of money being um exchanged like that. What I am aware of is that um we in England we have these groups or we did on Augusta called independent advisory groups and they are meant to work with the police to help keep um co you know community cohesion to stop there being tensions within the community and I do know that the police were speaking and working with those independent advisory groups which were of the Pakistani Muslim community and they were being told, "Look, we'll deal with it within our community." And so the police were quite happy to just let them go away and deal with it themselves. And of course, it was covered up. Um, and it still continues to be covered up to this day. We still don't see adequate sentencing. They are getting better.

[00:12:13]>> This was nothing to do with community.

[00:12:15]This is a criminal activity and the law of the land must have, you know, come into >> that was always my that was always my opinion. Um, and it has not changed to this day. You know, whether somebody, you know, I often say, I mean, in England, we've had scandals with like Jimmy Savile or with there's been Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein.

[00:12:38]And actually, there was a lot of abuse in the Catholic Church, particularly in Ireland. For me, >> a child abuse or wherever he comes from should have the full weight of the law.

[00:12:48]So, I was able to make this argument with a completely clear conscience.

[00:12:52]There are good and bad people everywhere, but any ch any man who rapes a a young child is bad and the law is there to be used to prosecute.

[00:13:02]>> So Oliver, you know, when you when you uh share this example of this apartment that you were talking about that had on the door a list of abusers or you know potential rapists and every time they would take a girl Yeah.

[00:13:17]>> they would put a tick mark and at the end of the month you know money exchange hands etc. etc. >> That means that all of this was highly organized. You know, it ran like a professional business of exploitation, industrial scale at that.

[00:13:32]>> Absolutely. It it was it was systemic abuse and it was a very organized network. Um, and we now know when I was first on that job in 2005, I didn't know this crime existed. I know now that even 10 years before that, it was well known.

[00:13:50]But the networks built up through um family connections. So there might be I I believe Bradford was one of the places that this abuse first started. And then they would have a family member in Rotherham, in Rodale, in Telford, in the West Midlands. And so the children would be trafficked, so taken in a car from Bradford to Rodale where they would be abused in a house there. It it was a really sophisticated network. But back 20 years ago, it wasn't as sophisticated as it is now because this crime has been allowed to um to >> So, Miss Oliver, are you saying that this is still going on? Nothing has changed.

[00:14:33]>> It's absolutely still going on. Um I think that the way that children are um now um groomed has changed in that often that's now done online. So a child is befriended online often by somebody who pretends to be their same age. The reality is that when that child goes to meet that person, it can be somebody very much older. And by that time, often there are perhaps naked pictures of that child, the child is then threatened. If you don't do what we want you to do, we will tell your parents, we'll share those pictures with all your school friends. And that child feels trapped.

[00:15:13]And because the trust in the in the police and in the system is so broken that child has nowhere to go. Um and in fact I'm aware of cases where a family a family came to the foundation to my charity their 11year-old had been groomed online um and the the father took the phone off his daughter. She was only 11 at night because it kept on beeping um and it carried on beeping next to his bedroom. when he looked there was all these pictures and all these messages. He went to the police and the police turned up and told the child that she was guilty of criminal activity in sending those pictures through her phone. But if she deleted everything um that nothing more would be said that father came to the foundation behind that that one man messaging was a gang of about 36 men. So the the the nature of drawing the children in has often now changed, but what happens when they meet that child is still the same.

[00:16:15]Um and until we see proper >> So you're saying they're lured online, you know, and then befriended and then uh >> they, you know, drawn out >> out of their >> threatened.

[00:16:29]>> Yes. Threatened and then taken to a place where they violated rape. Now, Miss Oliver, you know, are you aware of cases where, you know, people of the police department or the social service staff was part of this rape gang where where they were actually raping the girls?

[00:16:49]>> Yeah. Yes, I am aware of cases like that. Um, and I think that's part of the scandal. Um and it it you know I have got questions in my mind particularly in relation to one of the cases that I that I know about um as to whether that case was closed down because of that because police officers were implicated. Um so that there's still a lot of work to do to bring accountability. That's what we now we've got awareness.

[00:17:20]We have the public are aware of what's happening. the the the the state can no longer pretend it isn't. What we still don't have is accountability for those public servants that have deliberately um and knowingly turned away. That's what I want to see because I believe that that's when we will see change.

[00:17:42]Every time you know someone like we are having a conversation and you've used the term Pakistani Muslim men several times every time a survivor or people you know like yourself uh they mention this phrase Pakistani Muslim men eyebrows are raised and that's part of the problem.

[00:18:04]>> Well I don't raise my eyebrows because you know I've had conversations with hundreds if not thousands of children who have had their lives destroyed. It's my duty to speak the facts and my charity is actually taking the government to a judicial review because we had a seven-year national statutory inquiry where 20 recommendations were made um four years ago and they're still sitting on a shelf gathering dust. One of those recommendations um as 7,000 victims participated in that. One of those recommendations was that the ethnicity, the religion, the culture of abusers must be recorded and still that doesn't happen. So, it's my duty to say what I know to be the case. And if the facts are gathered, we're not having to um tiptoe around it. If if the facts are completely different, they're not. But if they were, the facts would show it.

[00:18:59]But there has to be the question has to be asked is why is there such a reluctance to gather the information to gather the data?

[00:19:08]>> You're absolutely right. And let me also ask you Miss Oliver as someone who's been who you know who's seen this abuse and you know rape scandal up close.

[00:19:17]Someone who's you know stood with the survivors. There is now a dispute on the number that this report talks about. The report by Mr. Rupert says it's the number of survivors is at 2 lak 50,000 250,000. Now there are many independent commentators etc etc so-called activists whatever you want to call them they dispute the number according to you what what do you think is an estimated number of potential victims and survivors >> the reality is that nobody knows and um nobody knows I've been working in this field now for 20 years um that report that came out has no uh legal powers it you know it it it reflects what I've known for 20 years. Um, a statutory inquiry should act, but unfortunately um, the government does not even have to act on recommendations of a statutory inquiry. So for me, um, this is about legal.

[00:20:19]>> No, no, I understand that completely, Miss Oliver, but you know, if you had to put a number, >> do you think?

[00:20:24]>> I guess I I I will be saying hundreds of thousands. That would be my estimate because, you know, even on in in one little town, you know, you've got the thousands. And that was just in a tiny snapshot of when it's been looked at.

[00:20:39]These cases have gone back now for 30 years in in in, you know, dozens and dozens, hundreds of of areas around the UK. So, nobody knows the scale of it. I just know that in my little charity, which I started in 2019, we have helped over 5,000 victims in that time. and they have had to find us. Um, so you know, nobody knows the scale. Um, and we can't undo the damage that's been done.

[00:21:11]What I want to do is to change things for the future so that other children who are young now do not have to suffer the same neglect, the same life destroying trauma that the neglect of the state has caused. That is what is horrific about this.

[00:21:28]>> You're doing great work. We wish you well. you know, more power to people like you, Miss Oliver. I've gone through the report and you know, while the testimonies are disturbing to the core, there is something that I read it, you know, where where the survivor was has narrated that dogs were used, animals were used to rape girls. Can you believe it?

[00:21:52]>> You know, I some of the things that I've seen and heard in 20 years give me nightmares. Um, and that my journey, and this isn't about me, but my journey has been traumatic. Um, but what I always tell myself in the dark moments is that if I can't find the courage to fight on, what chance has one child who has got one voice who is being criminalized and isolated and terrified and abused? It's my duty as a human being to speak the truth as I know it to be. Um, and that's all I've ever done. So, if there's uncomfortable truths there, well, it's tough.

[00:22:36]>> And I'm sure there are many. But, you know, before we before we end, Miss Oliver, I want you to tell our viewers about some of the most uncomfortable, you know, disturbing aspects that uh came out of this child sex abuse scandal. I spoke about the testimony where the girls said that dogs were unleashed etc to rape girls. What else can you tell us?

[00:23:00]I mean, I'm aware not not one of the cases that I've worked on, but not not one of the grooming gang cases that I've worked on, but on on another case that involved um uh an an honor an honorbased situation where a young girl was sent back to Pakistan who had um offended the family. And uh I know from the community and from what happened to her that she was put in a shed in a garden and she was repeatedly raped by the whole community and animals. So I do know that that is a mechanism uh like one of the torturing mechanisms that I have heard of. But that wasn't a grooming gang case. It was another case that was equally horrific. So it's it's not um something that I haven't heard before. and and the reality is that some of the torture that that these children have endured um it is brutal and inhumane to the extreme, you know. Um I I I just can't comprehend how one human being could do this sort thing to another. What I just do want to say though is that for me that there are good and bad people everywhere and there are there are many people within the Muslim community that are good people. What I want to see is those good people in that community join this conversation.

[00:24:24]>> That's right. Speak up for the victim.

[00:24:26]Condemn the per perpetrators. help the law enforcement agencies, you know, get to the perpetrators so that the semblance of justice >> is uh is seen.

[00:24:39]>> I thank you, Miss Oliver, for you know, for all your efforts, for speaking to us, for you know, sharing uh what what what you saw and I just hope that you continue to take up this good fight in the interest of justice. Thank you, M.

[00:24:55]>> Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for having me on. Much appreciated.