Queer signaling has evolved from a survival mechanism into a form of cultural expression and community building, serving multiple purposes including safety, identity recognition, and authentic self-expression. Historically, coded languages like Polari allowed queer people to communicate discreetly in hostile environments, but modern signaling has expanded to include aesthetic choices, fashion, and cultural references that allow individuals to express their identity authentically while navigating complex social dynamics. The key insight is that queer signaling is not about hiding but about creating space for community connection and personal authenticity, with the inner child and playfulness being central themes in how queer people develop their unique visual and verbal languages.
Why No One Can Tell You’re GayAdded:
There are thousands of people online saying the exact same thing. Why can't anyone tell that I'm gay? There's fems frustrated that no one clocks them as lesbians and NBs who people constantly assume are cisgendered. It's true that being queer doesn't have one singular look, but is there something behind the desire for queer recognition without being willing to visibly signal? From camp encoded language to haircuts, earrings, gay voice, and queer aesthetics. This episode unpacks the hidden history of queer signaling and how to communicate your identity authentically. Whether you want to whisper it or make it impossible to miss.
>> What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Queer Collective podcast. I'm your host Carbon.
>> I'm Emily and I'm Aonis.
>> And welcome to the show. And this episode is sponsored by In the Closet and Tomboy X, but more on them later.
And with us today we have Ajonis Charlie. they them pronouns who is a black non-binary writer, filmmaker, and comedian based in Toronto. Welcome to the show.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> Let's dig into chapter 1, the secret symbols and signals of queerness. The queer community ranges from like 4 to 10% of the general population.
>> That's actually bigger than I thought.
>> Is it?
>> Yeah. I thought we were like 2 to three.
>> Either way, small. Like how the [ __ ] do we recognize each other is basically my question. Do you guys know what queer signaling is? Well, to me, queer signaling is like that external layer of of symbols and non-verbal communication you use to show to other queer people that you're part of the community in a way that is kind of obscure to the mainstream. And you may be doing this for the sake of >> uh safety. You may be doing this for the sake of just having community, for having an ingroup. To me, it's about like the artistry and the aesthetic of how can we get away with this internal knowledge that we as a community share and communicate it to each other in the way that also like reflects the specifics of our identities, our queer identities.
>> I would just say it also goes into verbal as well. Like there's like secret languages. There's um even just like the way queer people speak to each other and we will get into that, but but it it encompasses so many things. It's more just like discreet in a way that like straight cisgender people wouldn't necessarily be able to clock it.
>> I don't know what that pipeline looks like in a straight brain. So, this is I am I'm curious about like what does the queer signal do to the straight body in the straight mind? I don't know.
>> And it's interesting because I feel in recent years a lot of like straight men have been queer signaling.
>> Oh yeah. perhaps in the desire to the lesbian to get a bisexual and to compete with the lesbian for the bisexual.
>> But I I do feel like I mean we see a lot of these videos online of like style offs between >> between lesbians and and sis men that are trying to pull off looks like wearing the carabiner and everything carabiner boom like special shirt or something. Yeah.
>> What do you think of that as a lesbian?
Well, I'm pro them increasing their like looks and tire >> because it is quite awful when it's likeally straight >> like super like when it when you go all the way to the 10 out of 10 straight kind of look. It's uh it's really bad to improve everybody. We need improvement when you you know monkey see monkey do >> is is what's happening here. Yeah. Does it signal that they might be like cooler than they are? Perhaps, but you know, >> perhaps that opens the doors for them to be exposed to new people and in being exposed to new people then they get there. You know, maybe it's a positive.
I think >> yeah, I think I'm mostly okay with it for the sake of like hopefully yes, this teaches you something about the positives of of what queer communities representing in the best of times. The part that I get a little bit scared of is the capitalism part is when the like straight community takes a hold, grasps our queer codes and then uses it to define their own styles that they're selling to other straight people and it becomes a cycle of commerce and not a cycle of community. And that's where I'm like, here we go again. The life and death cycle of culture. It happens with like black culture. Anything that starts in a marginalized community gets subsumed by the cis, straight, largely white mainstream, >> proliferates, becomes illegible to the community it came from, and then the marginalized community has to find new codes that will eventually get subsumed by capitalism later on. Again, >> that's the cycle where I get a little bit scared.
>> When something reaches Harry Styles, that's when it's time for it to die. the Harry Styles.
>> I'm sorry, Harry. You You I I You might be one of us, Harry.
>> You might be one of us. I can't. We No one can.
>> I got I'm grabbing it. I'm grabbing it.
>> Unfortunately, once something reaches that height of just consumerist culture, it's no longer anyone's in a way that defeats the purpose of coding. I think he is an example of what appears to be a straight man. We're not totally sure where that line is, >> but there's a lot of fanfiction going on there.
>> Accused of uh queer baiting for sure.
>> Absolutely. I mean, I think he does ally really well, but I will say the one benefit I see of this of like the hairy styles, the Jacob Allorties who are like wearing purses and and this kind of thing is I feel like it does stretch the confines of masculinity which is like so suffocating for straight men. So, I think that's one benefit, but I will say you were absolutely right on the nose and correct that it does force us to now create new queer signals. Like the one earring used to be a gay men coded thing and then straight men started to wear it like the Backstreet Boys that's sort of kind of like popularized the gay aesthetic for straight men. They're like, "Oh, that looks cool."
>> But then at that point it no longer becomes usable or legible >> because now gay men are going up to straight men thinking that they're gay and that's a dangerous situation now that you're hitting on someone. So now this doesn't work anymore. So that's kind of the line. I think it's also like a a warning thing because I feel like I have been tricked into thinking these people are queer and then I immediately open up to them because I'm like, "Oh, you're wearing queer clothes. You seem like a safe person to me." And especially while I was like traveling in other countries, I was like, "Oh, this could be a person that I could make friends with." Mm-m, not a safe person.
So, you need to be a little more careful and discerning in that cuz I think when straight people start to use queercoded signals, it is confusing. Mhm.
>> You're confusing the message, >> you know, because these are our secret codes on how we connect to each other.
>> Navigating that is becoming more and more >> tricky. Oh god. And it's it used to be so clear. It used to be spot the straight cut jeans. There you go.
There's the straight. It used to be cargo shorts. There's the stepfather.
>> Lucky for us, queer people are very creative. Yes.
>> So, we do keep coming up with new [ __ ] all the time. It will always continue to happen.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Until we are in a place where we're safe enough to not need coding.
>> Now you look at American politics. Maybe that's not going to happen anytime soon.
The need for codes will continue. And we may as well have a little bit of fun while we have them before they slip away into the heterosexual ether. This is a little bit tangential, but like what of the the straight coated garments can we reclaim to reinccorporate to recycle our cultural? Cuz that's this is the real thing. I think >> actually part of it.
>> Oh my god. Okay. So much of like queercoded history is actually us like reclaiming >> Yes.
>> straight things in a camp way.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm going to get to that later.
>> Okay.
>> Should we pause on that? Cuz that is like a huge part of it.
>> That is the entree. So let's get into the what does it mean then officially >> to queer signal. Okay. According to queer theorist Eve Kazoski Sedwick, queer signaling is a kind of shadow language, which I thought that sounded quite poetic and I liked it. It's a system of communication that allows queer people to discreetly identify one another, express desire, and build community. They are tiny, deniable hints that whisper, "I'm one of you. Are you one of me?"
>> Yes.
>> Mhm. How do we think that queer signaling is connected to gender?
>> Queer signaling is related to gender in the way that like when you're sis, you even have to do your own signaling because gender is so performed.
>> It's a construct.
>> It's a construct. It is a show. Doing makeup every day, putting on earrings every day. These are elements of performing this notion of femininity in this purely heteronormative framework that we live in Western society. We can't just be the thing. We have to signal the thing. We have to know the the mental game of being the the gender that we're trying to present, trans, non-binary, or cis. And that involves signals like deliberate aesthetic choices that you apply to yourself to no matter who's looking, whose attention you have, whether or not it's active or just like passive to communicate at all times. This is what I am. This is what I'm trying to be. So uh the game of gender is the game of messages and signals.
>> Yeah, it is a good point that uh straight people or cis people etc. they're also putting on this performance and signaling of like hey I am >> this person this gender >> straight >> like look at me you know >> we're all constantly constantly it's just like whether it's coded or not.
>> Yeah. Just based on this conversation, I feel like all of us at the table have had a fullon identity crisis when getting dressed.
>> Oh, 100%.
>> Yeah. It's not just me. It's not just you. You're not alone. And for the days when nothing fits, not physically, not spiritually, not genderly, the National Film Board has just dropped a hilarious and heartwarming series on this called In the Closet. And it's basically exploring that feeling, but in a way that's actually healing. Hosted and directed by our guest today, comedian Adonis Charlie, who fully commits to the bit by literally getting in the closet with six of their NB besties. We're talking DJ Mousner, Shella Zaroo, Amanda Cordner, Me McKay, Ben Duza. These are all comedians, writers, drag performers, and you know that they're getting up to some hilarious [ __ ] They swap clothes, unpack identity, overshare, god bless, and somehow make you cry and laugh in under 12 minutes per episode. They get into all kinds of important fashion and identity topics such as how does one dress mask sleeves and what is the ultimate fem top. Spoiler alert, it's a blazer. Expect queer joy, chosen family, and lots of Yes, actually I do look hot in this outfit. Catch all six episodes on the NFB's YouTube channel and stand along. Go watch In the Closet now or after this episode. I mean, stay here, but go watch it afterwards. In their book, Gender Trouble, Judith Butler, the >> Master Butler, >> the master of gender, >> said that gender is not something we are, but something we repeatedly perform through clothing, gesture, speech, posture, and behavior. And queer signaling, if you think about it, exists inside of that performance. There was a historical need for this, and that's really where queer signaling comes from.
So George Chanty, the author of Gay New York, wrote that these systems emerged because queer visibility had to exist in partial shadow. Recognition needed to be legible to other queer people, but deniable to everyone else.
>> Hence the shadow language.
>> Exactly. So it needed to be not too subtle that you remained isolated or too obvious that you risked violence. It was kind of like in that sweet spot. Right.
>> Makes sense. Before gay bars and grinder, queer people used a secret language to connect with one another.
>> Is it hankies?
>> No, like an actual literal language. It was called polary. So, this is also the example I wanted to use to say that it goes beyond just visual cues. Okay.
>> Like it's in our voice really. So, Polari was the coded slang that queer people used in Misfits from the UK as a way to publicly communicate or just have a camp laugh with each other. For some it was just a collection of a few slang words, but for others it was much more complex and it made up like a full proper language really like they could use full sentences of it. It was a mix of Italian cochnney rhyming slang, Yiddish and queer subcultural slang. And to make it even more coded, it they would use English words that were shortened and turned backwards.
>> What?
>> Yeah. which is like it kind of reminds me a little bit about making up a secret language with your friends in the schoolyard.
>> Yeah. Or like pig Latin. I could never do it. So I would suck at this I think.
>> What's pig Latin?
>> You don't know pig Latin.
>> Pay atten >> like that. Yes. I can't do it. But >> yeah.
>> I k peak say ig at le.
>> I feel like you would have been great at polarity.
>> You could have done it.
>> I could have. So then where did it come from? It's believed to have started before the 1800s. Obviously, these things are kind of hard to track, right?
It's like a slang language >> made by misfits, but definitely before the 1800s, potentially even earlier. Its origins are traced back to traveling entertainers and fairground people. And from there, it made its way into theaters, music halls, and aboard ships.
So, basically like anywhere you could find a misfit.
>> Oh, >> you know, and that's where queer people would be, right? Right. Like if you can't fit into society, >> you go into ships.
>> Yeah. In theaters, of course.
>> The theaters, of course.
>> Checks out.
>> The ships though, I guess they're looking for queer land.
>> I mean, there's something gay about the way Sailor's dress. I don't know.
>> This is true. So fraily.
>> Yeah.
>> Feminine. The white is a fantasy.
>> It is. It is. It's a serve. And I mean, the linear of of naval travel and queer community. I mean, the cruise ship of it all. Maybe that is a gay space. Maybe >> it used to be. There used to be like a There was a whole gay cruise ship specifically >> and you'd be in a ship with only men.
>> This is true.
>> A dream for some.
>> For some and for some a nightmare.
>> Yeah. I'm realizing, okay, I accidentally went to like a gay men specific rave.
>> Okay.
>> Didn't expect that to happen. I thought it was going to be queer, but I showed up and then I realized I have this internal dream of being a hot gay man.
Oh, so you were turned on when you showed up.
>> Yeah, but I couldn't join. Like, I wouldn't have been invited. But I looked really masculine that night. And like for 4 seconds, like some people would make eye contact with me and then they'd see my sports bra and then they'd look away and I was like, "Oh."
>> But like for it was like 4 seconds of gender euphoria and like the excitement of almost getting invited into the orgy.
>> Like my dream. I didn't realize I had this dream.
>> You might be gayer than you thought.
>> Yeah.
more transer than I thought.
>> Do you all want to learn some polarity?
>> Yeah, >> I think you'll pick it up pretty quick.
>> I hope so.
>> Okay.
>> The stakes are high.
>> So, the word for homosexual was omi palon. Okay. And this was derived from >> roly polyoli.
>> Yeah, it does sound very like pig latiny for sure. Like it's like rhy. And >> I thought this was supposed to be a code. That sounds gayer than saying homosexual. Omi palomi.
>> Yeah. What are you talking about?
>> Palomi.
>> This was derived from two separate words with omi meaning man and paloni meaning woman. So when you flip it, what do you think lesbian is?
>> Palomi Palomi.
>> Paloni omi.
>> Palony omi.
>> Right. It's like man, woman, woman, MAN.
BASICALLY.
>> OH, >> BECAUSE before back in the day, they really used to confuse like gender and sexuality for sure.
>> That's a beautiful drag name. I think >> someone I mean it's a bit literary.
>> Very historical.
>> It's very historical. very inside baseball. But Paloniomi, it does have a ring to it.
>> So once homosexuality was partially decriminalized in 1967, Polari increasingly became unnecessary and began to fall out of use.
>> I see.
>> However, while the need Oh, while the need for secrecy may have faded, queer slang persisted because it serves multiple social functions. Right. So much of queer slang today is often misidentified as Gen Z slang, though.
I'm going to I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that I would say like it originates from black ballroom community like clocket eight serving shade. Like so many people think this is like jenzi internet slang. Even jenz would >> think that would think that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But it's like no >> I don't think that >> the shutter it sends down my spine whenever I see like tea misuse or kiki out of place and just the light >> or people clocking it with these fingers. Yeah.
>> With these. What is this? What? What is this? Teeny tiny.
>> It looks like you touch something and it's sticky.
>> Yes. Yes. Someone get me a napkin, please. Being black. So many Gen Z terms are also like misappropriated from the black >> uh community of like getting popularized now. Sus when sus was popping off a few years ago. I was like, what in the '9s rap are we talking about with sus coming out? Like I was like I and I still am.
And it's something that I truly have to not necessarily get over, but >> let go and let God.
>> You have to let go and let God >> and just and let Jesus take the wheel and let the kids take the words because this is especially with social media amplifying everything >> the cycle of culture that we just talked about.
>> It would be nice if at least when somebody hears something you're like where does this come from?
>> I would and you do like a quick Google search or something. Most people aren't very curious, unfortunately.
>> That's unfortunate. Yeah. Like I was listening to the Bad Friends podcast, Bobby Lee and >> the Ginger Guy. And >> Bobby Lee was talking about he went to Coachella and he was like, I hated it.
Like everyone where I was everybody like it sucks being the oldest guy there.
Like that was so bad. But then Madonna came on and I was like, "Wow, amazing."
Like I love Madonna. But then the girls in front of me were like, "Who's that?"
>> Oh my god. cuz cuz she came on to like as a surprise guest for Sabrina Carpenter >> and then they were like, "Oh my god, who's that with her?"
>> And then he's like, "Oh no."
>> Like I need to exit the premises immediately.
>> I think this is just like intergenerational things though. Would you have known cultural references from like 30 years ago?
>> No. But >> yeah, but I'm also not like not trying to incorporate like um he gibbies into my speech. I mean, now that I say it, >> it could make a comeback.
>> Maybe I am ready for my heebie-jeb era >> for specifically for this like Madonna situation. I'm like, at least pretend to be reverent. Like, at least pretend that Madonna is there's this fun well, not fun. this silly game that I feel like young people, especially Gen Z's these days, do where it's like intentionally irreverent or it's like, >> you know, something's supposed to be something for someone that's like from the past, but intentionally being like, I'm too young to know what that is.
>> That's not First of all, honey, honey, honey, your time will come.
>> Jen Alpha's going to be after you.
>> They're already here. They're at the door. They're knocking it down. I would just hope it's it's that thing of being staying curious and staying interested in where things come from, which is I'm afraid. And yeah, maybe a little bit tangential to the episode, but whatever.
We're gabbing. We're kikiing. This is a proper Kiki >> textbook use of the word, if I might say. My question is, do parents do enough parents play their parent music for their kids and go like, "Hey, look at this person. This is who I listen to when I was young." My parents did that all that's all that I listened to when I was younger, which is why I don't know a lot of pop culture references is because it was just all my parents stuff. Yeah.
>> But now I'm like I'm so happy that I know that. And it made me curious to learn more about it and go and like dig on my own, >> watch documentaries, like listen to their albums on my own, etc. And now I'm like, "Wow, I'm so happy that I have like a more rich story." Yeah. Like I know the history of like where things come from.
>> What do you think the purpose is that queer slang serves today?
>> First of all, it's fabulous.
>> It's fun.
>> It's so fun.
>> There's so many elements to it, right?
Like there's the manurisms. There's the gay tone in voice which is like literally scientifically studied.
>> And going back to the signaling when somebody's speaking to me in like that way in like the queer >> um lingo, it signals safety.
>> Yeah. and it's specific like pop cultural references too. So much of this is like a secret code that it's like it almost feels like we're telepathically communicating. Yeah.
>> It allows you to connect a lot quicker >> to community and like find out who your people are. And I think I'm going to be honest. I think this is actually where the straight man in the coded lesbian outfit falls apart. And this is why I start to talk to them very quickly like that and like I love your gay little mustache. like I just started like really going after them >> and if if they can feed it back if they can feed it back they're actually queer.
You know, >> camp vocal culture and like the the gay slang is something that we see happening across cultures in languages like you're seeing this in like many different countries. For example, in the Philippines, they have sword speak, which is their word for gay lingo, and it constantly evolves just like ours does to stay semi-exclusive and playful and combines tagalog, is that how you say it?
>> Tagalog.
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, beautiful. English and celebrity references. And they include like brand names and humor. A lot of this comes from like ballroom drag communities.
Like the the very important thing about vocal language, I think, is the fact that it can evolve very quickly. It's like while people are stealing the language, it's like, okay, that's old now. We're coming up with something new.
And that's like the really beautiful thing I would say about the queer community, about the black community is like so much creativity. And I mean, the second something goes on Drag Race, it is over at that point.
>> This is true.
>> Because Drag Race, you know who's watching the most? The straight white women.
>> And the straight white women take it to their straight white husbands. Now it's over.
>> And then the straight white husbands.
It's over. It's over at that point.
>> And now it's corny.
>> Yeah.
>> The Rupaulification.
>> The funny thing about it is RuPaul's Drag Race. It started out so authentic.
Like if you watch season two, >> it is so raw and real and authentic. And now it starts to feel like you're getting these gay people who have not been through the same struggles obviously as earlier generations and they're coming in just using the recycled language and it feels not right coming off of their tongue sometimes. Do you ever get that when you watch it?
>> Oh yeah. you know.
>> Well, there there's so much of it that feels mechanical because >> it's it's like we're putting we're saying this slay queen love your suit like bop hit point like yeah the emotional beats like even like the life story beats is like >> okay I'm rehearsing my trauma this is when this is the part of the season where mine comes out this is it's going to it's this is the the music that's going to underscore my drama like boots >> boots house the house down drama the house down and It's it lacks that rais lacks that authenticity >> and it's >> for some I think there's some that are still authentic but there's other ones where I'm like >> yes >> I don't know no matter like you you know what it is as a platform and you you have to know what you're bringing to those eyeballs into that stage and it's just be and it's it's a machine it's it's a mechanical apparatus for content >> build for content for building a fan base for getting money to survive in this economy the evil beast that is content Um, >> content content is a scary scary word.
>> You know, this is why I think that in countries where you have to be like more discreet, more subtle, more >> like keep it hush hush. The culture is so rich once you actually get to the underground culture. It's like rich and embodied and there's so much history to it and they really they they have that thing that we don't have.
>> Yes. On the flip side, it's a lot more dangerous to have that thing.
>> Absolutely. This is like I >> tradeoff.
>> I'm g Jamaican. My mom's from my um biological father is from Jamaica. And those are two countries where homosexuality is still illegal.
>> Is not necessarily death penalty, but especially in Jamaica, there's like a culture. There's a very heterosexual, very religious culture and very puditive culture towards any uh gender or sexual expression that deviates from that norm.
I've never been to other countries and I'm kind of afraid to because of that very thing, but I also want to go because I know how vibrant and and musical and beautiful even the just normalized Jamaican gy culture >> and I know how much further that the queer community takes that in the spaces where they're allowed to be free, but those spaces are so few >> and going to those places in the lens of a documentarian, which is I guess what I am now, Stand on it. Stand on it.
>> I am a documentarian.
>> Even the act of capturing this on camera to show the world what vibrancy can look like in these spaces >> is a scary proposition because you're opening the doors to a community that really needs their codes.
>> To stay hidden. Yeah.
>> They need to stay hidden. They need to be sheltered. So, so that makes the like the tangible aspects of queerness really powerful in these places, but it also makes queer codes that much import more important for yeah the community out there. Not to bring it back to the thing I'm here to talk about to the thing that sponsored the pod, but like in the closet is all about those codes. And what I was trying to do with the series is like how do these codes intersect with these varying parts of specifically non-binary expression? And although two spirit is not non-binary, the world of gender non-conformity encompasses like a lot of these ideas. What does that mean for indigenous expressions of non-bin binariness?
>> Because that is the Canadian story of queerness and queer coding. I think you asked a really good question in that though is what is the purpose for us to be queer signaling like why is it still important for us that kind of >> when there's not so much like danger you mean >> absolutely cuz there's so many places where there is and these queer codes are still like so so important but for people like us and this kind of brings us to chapter two legible queerness why queer signaling is relevant in 2026 what do we think the purpose is of modern queer signaling >> if there's no need for it for survival.
>> I think I mean you correct me if I'm wrong, but like the purpose of queer signaling is vibes now.
>> I don't know the best >> answer to be honest. It's like vibes.
>> I think so. Vibes are important.
>> Vibes are important. It can be very challenging to express yourself as a non-binary person. Yeah.
>> And I have a very distinct vision of myself internally that can be difficult to communicate to >> what is like the the naked eye of the average Canadian, which is just straight, white, and male. The kind of thing that defines Western society.
>> I go by they them pronouns. And I would like if I introduce myself with those pronouns for that to be deer like that is what I'm asking to be recognized as.
I get he him a lot still. This I do not like.
>> I get she heard a lot too. I'm also a they them.
>> Yeah.
>> Also they >> it's something I struggle a lot of.
>> I just I like the way that you said it.
They >> be a them.
>> I do give them a lot actually. I I get them. You get them more than I do. And this is my inner conflict. This whole narrative online that a lot of people who are very supportive will say that it's like there's no one way to look non-binary. And I agree with that.
However, >> it seems like there is a way to look non-binary because Carbon is getting they themed and neither of us are.
>> Yes. Yes. And I wonder >> So what the [ __ ] is up?
>> So exactly. Exactly. Clearly, Carbon, there is a way to look.
>> Give me whatever is in your wardrobe that is making the magic happen. The bandanna on the neck. I need to know. I need to know.
>> Is the misconception that it's like it is androgyny, >> you know?
>> I believe so.
>> I think it's that. But then androgyny, >> but that's not always what it means to me. For example, if you see somebody that has a masculine figure, >> let's say they have it's a masculine figure. They have a lot of body hair.
Maybe they have a little beard, but they have long hair and they're wearing a dress.
>> Yeah.
>> A I think majority of people would be like >> they them.
>> They them.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> No. Or or like in >> or you would immediately ask this person their pronoun.
>> I think the same thing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. What do you like to be called?
>> Exactly. That's that's a great place to start for me.
>> They walk into the room and then suddenly we're all doing a pronoun check.
>> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
>> On the flip side, like if you saw a very feminine figure or >> but then they had short hair and then they had like masculine clothing on. I think most people would assume the same.
>> Yes. So this is one of the challenges cuz it's like >> in that way we're basically creating our own new category where you have to be actively defying both extremes of the binary and to me >> and visually >> visually visually hardcore we're finding this very extreme center which I consider it to be its own extreme >> to be its own category. I see.
>> We're we're we have now developed a trinary instead of >> a binary.
>> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I personally am non-trinary. I can't like we It's like either one extreme.
>> Yeah.
>> The other extreme, one extreme male, the other extreme female or the central extreme, something male, something female. Half and half. Half and half.
>> It has to visually look like half.
>> Yes. where I the the promise that I internalize about non-binary is that this is an infinite spectrum between and this literally what the name non-binary means it is the infinite spectrum so we shouldn't have to extend ourselves to perform in order to get the recognition of what we are inside but then and this is kind of why in the closet had to happen for me it's like if I'm just purely dressing the way I want to going out in the world I want to >> and I'm still getting he him What do I have to do? Do what about myself do I have to change? What about my presentation do I have to change to try to get the response that I want? And does that mean that some degree of performance of gender performance is necessary to actualize this thing? And so it's this weird >> tension and dissonance between what the promise of non-binary is and what the actual actuality of uh performing non-binarity is that I needed some help from the outside world to get some answers. Um, and that question might actually not be answerable. It's truly maybe like there's always going to be some degree of performance when you're stepping out into the world and >> it's always a performance.
>> The most you can do is just entertain yourself with a sort of performance that you're putting on with a genre of of of performance, whether it's drama, horror, or comedy. You just have to live up and enjoy it yourself. That might be an answer. And there is an answer out there where it's like you don't have to care about the that external piece of it, what other people deem you as you know inside.
>> Yeah.
>> Who exactly you are. That doesn't work for my brain. I'm an external validation queen. Give me my thing. Give me my pronouns.
>> I'm asking for my pronouns. Give me my pronouns. So, it's it's an open-ended question that I'm starting to explore with this and exploring a lot.
>> Uh even in this conversation, I'm I'm learning a lot. It's good to be honest with yourself.
>> External validation queen. Most people are like, "Yeah, like it doesn't matter what anybody thinks of me because I know who I am." Or they try to convince themselves that they think that and you're like, "No, no, give me my things.
>> Give me >> external validation. I need that." And you know, most people need it.
>> I feel like performing gender, gender is a performance. You are doing it in some ways for the reception that you're going to receive, but some of it is also for you, you know? But it's like it's kind of like a tangled up mess a little bit.
Who is this for? Like would I be wearing this per se >> if I wasn't trying to get something? I guess get a certain reception. But I would say like in watching in the closet, the thing that I related to most was you wondering if you're performing non-binary correctly because you're constantly getting hemmed. And I'm having the same experience. I'll be honest, I >> am constantly being she heard. And >> at first I was like really I felt really strong about the fact that I'm like non-binary doesn't look a particular way. And I was like feeling that I was just correcting everyone all the time.
But it gets a little exhausting. It does. Like once you've already told people your pronouns and you're constantly correcting it, it >> it gets to a level of invalidation where I think I I got to a point where I stopped correcting people because I was a little tired, you know, and then it starts to it brought me to a head space where I'm like, am I non-binary? You know, >> where it's like I feel I am because the way that you described it of it being it is literally in the name. It's not binary. It's an indescribable like >> the space between >> literally and it could be anything.
>> Yeah.
>> It could it's whatever the f I want it to be is the point. One thing I'm starting to come to in it because I have been exploring androgyny more. I've been exploring my masculinity more too because I started to realize I am having a lot of gender dysphoria. It was starting around being misgendered like around people saying she her. That's where it was like rooted in. And then wearing masculine clothes, I started getting more they them and that started feeling like gender euphoria. So I think my brain started tying the fact that like wearing masculine clothes is like getting the response that I'm looking for and then that is feeling euphoric.
But I think it really is in the pronouns like I could be wearing whatever I want.
But I think I don't know it it brings me back to this conversation that we had with a performer named Gay Jesus on our non-binary episode. And once they started a medical transition and they started to have more like masculine second sex characteristics, they started to feel like they had permission to wear more fem things again, which they wanted all along, >> you know?
>> And it's like this is it's this conflicting thing where it's like your your body, your physical form gives you that permission.
>> It's like what I was saying is like you have a beard, but now you're wearing like a dress. And that's what Gay Jesus is doing now. They they they wear whatever, right? somebody having a a a beard. Now they're like, I can wear the frills. I can have like the most >> camped up dress possible that you could imagine and I will not be she heard.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. The beauty of this is that somebody says something exactly like this in an episode of In the Closet, the recurring themes, the recurring quotes, the recur the recurring ideas are so strong that it's like this is such a defined mode of being.
>> Like this is it is so concrete and that experience of like knowing what the body that you're supposed to inhabit is. And once you achieve that body and then knowing okay now the world is mine like I can go back like that narrative is so >> is one of the touchstones of um I think like a non-binary experience and maybe it's something that's in my future to >> to experience. I'm a shy little baby queen. I'm scared to make any hard decisions. So um >> decisions in what like in what you wear?
>> In in what I wear? I'm very comforttoriented, which >> I think is less of a choice of aesthetics and more of a trauma response of a a need to preserve, self-preserve, and a focus on safety. But I know how I feel when I get to experiment with the frills of it all with with stepping outside the boundary of expectation. And this series actually gave me a lot of opportunity to play in that space, which is one of the beautiful gifts that the that it gave me. Yeah, I need my things.
Please give me my things. I asked for the thing and someone was nice enough to give me the thing.
>> These experiences have been so vital in in informing me that comfort is a good thing >> and safety is a good thing. But sometimes part of being non-binary is challenging yourself to where to see what too far looks like and then coming back and and reressing and constantly being a sort of transition within yourself and even being cisgender is that own struggle because there's always a new way to express binary masculinity and femininity. There's always new challenges of of that gender presentation >> that >> uh you have to negotiate every day of whether you're going to make if you're going to >> work out to make your body look like that, if you're going to get a surgery to make your body look like that.
Western society is wild, y'all. We're all doing uh >> performance, >> the work performance, constantly adjusting what it means to be us. And I think the goal for me as a non-binary person right now is just learn how to like enjoy the process and and continue to challenge myself and go into Aritzia and try the dress.
>> I have not gotten there yet. I've been I've been to the >> Aritzia dresses specifically. You dream of being the clean girl.
>> I I might be the I might be the clean girl. I don't know. Like the thing is I I don't know if I am the clean girl. I need to >> Do you want to bully me? You got to see.
You got to see if it like >> maybe I want to bully you in my original dress.
>> I love it. I am curious though. You sat down with what? Six other non-binary people.
>> Uh five others. Six including me.
>> Six including you.
>> And do you feel like you came to any conclusion of like are you doing non-binary properly?
>> And like what was the was there a theme as well? Like what does it what does it look like? What do you think the takeaway is? Even >> I think the most prominent motif less about being non-binary specifically, but something that's a really strong idea is like queerness and queer aesthetics as an adult are so informed by the inner child. We never got to have so many of us never got to experience.
>> Absolutely.
>> And I realized that in the closet I made like a play place for us to have that vital childhood experience of like putting on going to your friend's house and putting on their clothes and and and swishing and sacheting in whatever they got going on. I never had that as a young person. Definitely not in like an degendered way >> uh of looking at it and the few experience I have had growing up where I was experimenting were quickly shut down just by the cultural understanding that my household had. Um, and also like the need for an immigrant family to assimilate, survive, and just make it.
So, creating a space to let the inner child come out and survive is something I think that happens in every episode >> and is a really treasured experience that I am glad to have captured on camera.
>> Yeah. My like internal goal for the series is like how could I I wish I could have every non-binary person have this experience of like pure joy and indulgence and just letting that young internal self which I think is like a really true self >> be free and be physically manifest in in the body and to share in that experience. We only got the budget for six episodes, >> but I think even doing that for six people, I just hope that if other non-binary people can find the time and the space to let that inner child have that indulgent moment, I think it's really important for us all to experience.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. One way of expressing non-binariness, you think, is like through like playful childlike aesthetics.
>> Everyone is so indiv individual.
And that's another thing I was trying to express with this one. A lot of the representation of non-binary aesthetics on like TV now that we're starting to be represented is like hodge podgeesque.
>> Mhm.
>> And although there is space for that within the spectrum of non-binary, >> that is there's no be all end all of what this can look like. My wardrobe, which is probably the most boring of them all. Lots of neutrals, lots of plush fabrics, a hockey jersey or two in the mix >> because we got to keep them guessing.
Yes, I love the Oilers team.
>> Just showing that it doesn't look one way is the way that needed to be made made clear.
>> Yeah. But I didn't even get all the way with with the six because I really wanted to have a spectrum of everybody's kind of personal back uh background and identity and also um aesthetic. And I wanted to see some younger non-binary folk, some older non-binary folk, >> the boring gay aesthetic. Like there it can really be anything. And we I don't want a conception of non-binary to be defined by septum piercing tattoo crop top. Like there's it can be that. But it's it's it is truly everything.
>> Mhm.
>> So yeah, if there are any like uh hallmarks to summarize cuz I do need a TLDDR. I need to issue a TLDDR for everyone right now. A binding force of non-binary aesthetics is >> the inner child, their hopes and dreams, and how that manifests as clothes, objects, physical things.
>> So much of non-binary to me is also a bit of like a political stance against the gender binary, right? So, I do feel our wardrobes are a way of seeing how that individual non-binary person is unpacking the gender binary. It's like our realm of play within this. Like, how are we visually protesting against it?
Visually unpacking all of this conditioning and layering.
>> Yes.
>> And mixed into that is like gender dysphoria, gender euphoria. Like, there's so many elements to it. Yes.
>> And I think sometimes that can come into looking like androgyny sometimes, you know, >> and I think maybe that's where that idea stems from that non-binary is androgyny.
Sometimes it's hyper femininity.
Sometimes it's hyper masculinity and it can't be way.
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>> Is there a world though in this imperfect world where you dress how you want and maybe people misgender you, maybe they don't, but then you still feel authentic and satisfied.
>> What I've come to in this because I've been thinking about this a lot. I'll be honest because it's been like this like constant sense of gender dysphoria of being misgendered. So, it's like been on my mind so much. But what I've come to is like I kind of have to check in with what I'm feeling that day, like what my tolerance is that day for being misgendered.
>> And some days I am leaning into my own masculinity because I need that in order to feel good in my gender that day. You know what I'm saying? So, some of it is like I'm doing a performance in order to be recognized how I want to be recognized. But then other days I'm feeling stronger in my sense of self and I'm going to wear whatever I want in a campy way, like I'm going to be hyper fem in a camp way. In the perfect world, I would wear whatever I want and people would block me all the time.
>> All the time.
>> It's not like that though. And I've had to come to that realization. Otherwise, I was constantly feeling this sense of gender dysphoria. You kind of have to work with what you got >> because I feel like uh in a totally different way, fem lesbians feel a degree of this.
>> This was going to be another one of my points as well cuz it's like what's the purpose of signaling in 2026 in Canada in America? You know, like what's the point of queer signaling? And another one is like if you're straight passing but you have the desire to be recognized by romantic interests. Like I hear this one the most on social media. like so many clips of fem lesbians being like, "No one knows I'm gay. What do I do?
Like, I'm so frustrated." And a lot of them look like the Aritzia Clean Girl aesthetic, right? It's like very straight. Oh, no. This is the fate the world has in store for me.
>> It's like the straight hetero.
>> This is your woman.
>> This is my path. You're going to see a clip of me so soon being like, >> "No one knows.
>> No one knows. I'm not a straight sis woman."
>> But I think that's a huge one. And I kind of hear a lot of these women like there's it almost feels like there's no desire because there's a way to do fem lesbian in a way that is plable.
>> How is it that hyper femininity signals that you're a lesbian?
>> Hyper femininity is lesbian camp, right?
It's the female body in feminine drag.
Are we following a little bit?
>> I'm following.
>> So to understand this concept deeper, we need to understand what camp means.
Right.
>> Right.
>> How would you all describe camp? Do we have an idea? It's very elusive. So that's why I'm interested to know what you all think of.
>> Exaggerated extreme versions of whatever it is that you're playing.
>> First of all, there's definition A.
>> Camp is a 3-day period where your stepfather takes you to some part of the Ontario wilderness. Yes. And you don't know for what reason why. Definitely my least favorite camp of the two definitions. Definition B, and you're right, it is elusive and it's changing over time. I'm gonna butcher this definition, but Susan Sag has a great essay, notes on camp, which is kind of the the thing that blew the term up.
>> It was very like heavily referenced for the Met Gala in 2019, too. I feel like that's where like got >> yeah it had it got it wave and then the definition kind of changed again but at the time when uh Santag was like really in these like seminal queer spaces of the '60s she came up with the definition of like camp is a sensibility that converts >> the serious to the frivolous and I'm personally going to add can also convert the frivolous to the serious. Mhm.
>> It's like a celebration of excess artifice and eccentricity that is innately and entirely queer and in for it's an ironic and satirical >> approach that is part of queer being queer literature.
>> Yeah. And I think the satirical part is like it's a love of bad taste but in like an ironic way, you know, >> or in like a tasteful way.
>> Or a tasteful way. It's in like it's full of like theatricality and like a love of exaggeration, >> like a love of all things that are too much, you know, which is is very queer.
And it also like transforms seriousness into play, which also comes back to what you were saying about queerness being so much about reclaiming the inner childhood that you never had. Yes.
>> You know, it's like campiness is playfulness. It's childishness. And I think that is part of like the beauty in it and what feels very inherently queer to me. One thing about Susan, cuz I was going to bring her up too, okay, is she was a little bit critiqued. She's queer herself. However, she like she connects it to queerness in her essay, but she doesn't do it >> very strongly. I would say like a lot of people would critique that she kind of stripped it of its like key political and specifically queer dimensions. You know, like she acknowledges its origins in the gay community but doesn't like dig into it in her essay. Yeah. So, in 1994, Mom critiqued her essay, claiming she deayed camp and treated it as a universal aesthetic taste and ignored its role in coded queer communication and survival under oppression. Mayor essentially argues that camp isn't just glitter, drag, and exaggeration. It's a specifically queer way of performing, decoding, and surviving heteronormative culture. So performing a hyper feminine aesthetic is fundamentally queer and separate from how a straight sis woman would perform femininity. Right? They look different. Therefore a different perspective gays. The straight sis woman is doing it in a way that is for the straight sis man.
>> Yes.
>> And the fem lesbian is performing femininity in such a way that you are attracting another lesbian. And it's exaggerated. It's campy. How do you tell the difference?
>> It is in the exaggeration. It is purely in the campiness for me. Like it is um >> what what makes it exaggerated? We talked about this in our butch fem episode and I think PCAT is a really good example of this where it is like glitter. It's like a celebration of the woman of the feminine. And campiness is almost indescribable. You know what I'm saying? And this is where I'm getting a little stump.
>> We got to we got to describe it a little though. We got to give it something to cling on to. It's what you make of it though. I feel like it's up to the individual in some ways. So that's why it's hard for me to describe. This is what why nobody knows how to queer signal cuz we can't define it guys.
>> But no, but it is hyper femininity. Like it is like like how do I describe hyper femininity though? It's up to the individual how they >> conversation. I just want to say I'm having a thrill. The critique of S tag in this moment is absolutely right. What was the name of the um >> M first of all beautiful name for a baby girl. Second of all, oh great name.
Second of all, completely right. Third, where Santag actually kind of uh nails it on the head is that uh she describes uh camp as a a sensibility and that it's inscrutability and inability to be concretely determined is part of what it is. Yes. And that's why it's hard for her to that's why she's it's it's easy and difficult for her to uh have a concrete idea of what camp is cuz when you're in it when you're in the queer community defining camp, you kind of just know and it's always hard to describe and share knowledge. You just like you just you just feel it.
>> Other people queer people just feel it.
And >> this is kind of one of the magical things about signals is that it's just there and you just know. Can I give an example of like let me visualize a woman.
>> Is this a lesbian?
>> Perhaps the way I would do my hyper femininity. Yeah, this is like a minikrt. Maybe it's maybe it's pink and she has a pink carabiner tied to the side and it's covered in silly little trinkets that have almost no practical use. Maybe there's one lip balm. Maybe that's the only practical thing on there. But everything else it's like maybe like a little doll head like other just silly things. You know what I mean?
Like it is playfulness and that is like the campiness and then it's like these big chunky furry boots perhaps, you know, like it's just like a caricature of femininity. Are we seeing it?
>> It is the the most. It is doing the most.
>> It's doing the most. My issue with that though is >> it can be okay. This is hyper feminine lesbian camp.
>> Yes.
>> Or it could be somebody in cosplay >> for sure.
>> Yeah. But I mean straight. Either way, they're alt.
>> They're super alt.
>> They're super.
>> I mean these I feel like an ally surely.
You know what I mean?
>> For sure. But when it comes to the dating game, even if you think back to when we were talking about Polari, like the people who would be involved and knew the language weren't only queer people. They were like the outcasts as well, right? The people who are in these spaces, they also spoke Polari. So, >> sounds like a combination of things then. Sounds like it's not just a visual signal. It's like maybe you visually signal, then somebody comes up to you and then it's now getting to the other signals. How are you speaking? What are your mannerisms? Like >> so many. What are your references? I would say it's the even the straight girl who's dressed like that is a safe person to hit on. You know what I mean?
And just get rejected by.
>> I don't think I don't think she's going to hate crime you.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. That would be interesting to see.
>> I haven't seen it in those boots. Call me thatler in those boots. Okay.
>> I actually had that happen recently.
Okay. I was wearing a dress that caused a lot of controversy in a recent clip and a a a gaylooking man with pink bright pink hair who looked really alt.
I went and lurked his profile said the meanest thing about my dress.
>> And I was like, from you? Like what in the Jeffree Star is happening to me right now?
>> Okay.
>> You know what I'm saying? So it's like occasionally that happens, but I feel like you can just live for the moment and be like flabbergasted about that, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> You're like, "What?" Cuz you guys had a lot of Yeah. It was an alt dress.
>> It was >> I think that dress would have been your you would have per been performing fem lesbian.
>> Thank you. On the note of camp, can we think of any other examples of how camp functions as a queer form of signaling >> camp aesthetics um the extreness the adjacency to kit is its own like functional artistic aesthetic. Like art neuvo is very related to camp. An object like a lamp shaped like a flower.
>> Yum.
>> Could be considered camp. And if you have that in your home, I'm going to be thinking, >> "Okay, something's happening in this household.
>> Something fruity.
>> Something fruity is a foot."
>> Yeah.
>> Just having a space of campy objects can tell me so much about the person living in that space.
>> And sexuality and gender is a whole part of that conversation. Most of queer aesthetics is not camp because like camp is a very specific mode, but when camp is there, it can tell you a lot about the person uh in question.
>> Mhm.
>> And most of what it's going to tell you is gay.
>> Yeah. And you know what? I feel like these days it doesn't take much to be considered camp because the way that like the >> I don't know if you've seen this online but like the the millennial turn of interior aesthetics where it's like everything's gray and I'm like that's on some heterosexuality but also like it raises like seeing that visually >> it's like it raises some concern of like are you okay? Are you happy? It only takes a little bit of color to even go super outside of that.
>> Yeah.
>> Like an accent of sorts.
>> Like some throw pillows in the space would save a lot.
>> Hella gray everywhere.
>> Yeah.
>> White, black, gray, and beige.
>> Beige.
>> Can I give yall some more examples?
>> Okay. So, I mean, beyond exaggerated femininity on the other side of the spectrum, very easy. Exaggerated masculinity. Absolutely. Especially if we're thinking about gay men the way they do like >> the like, you know what I mean? It's like it's a camp version of exaggerated masculinity >> shorts.
>> Yeah. It's like even like the leather like the the mustache, the butch, you know what I mean? But they're doing it like and then the gay voice comes out and it's camp.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Right. It's like it's a performance of masculinity in so many ways. And I think more examples are gay voice. so campy.
Camp humor, like even just like the gay slang that we were talking about earlier in this episode, that is so campy. It's so exaggerated and theatrical, >> you know, diva worship is also a little camp. Not being obsessed with become a diva unless you're extreme. Yeah. You're one of one. Absolutely.
>> And I would say these are also like not random stereotypes either. Okay. My question for you guys is, was there ever a point for either of you where signaling your queerness started to feel inauthentic or performative? Because I think the strange tension here is that gender is inherently performative, right? But there's a level where you can do it where it feels right for you or inauthentic.
>> You know, this brings me back to that whole like lesbians freaking out that nobody knows that they're gay thing. I think when you're authentic to yourself, you will attract the people >> that you want to attract.
>> Because when I was performing outside of my comfort zone and like I said, everything's a performance, right? We establish that.
>> But there's the performance that feels good to you and then there's the performance that really does not feel good to you. Yes.
>> Right. When I was performing outside of what feels good to me and feels like the character that I want to be when I'm outside in the world, That's when I would attract people that I that weren't for me or I just wouldn't attract anybody.
>> Right. You can almost read when someone's >> like it almost feels like a costume when somebody's wearing something that you can tell is not >> Well, everything's a costume, but some costume fits and some don't.
>> Yeah. What did it look and feel like when you were in that more inauthentic phase >> for you?
>> So, there's two sides of it, which I guess like is why I get called non-binary so much. When I'm being too feminine or like visually signaling too feminine, it feels inauthentic. But also, when I'm visually too masculine, >> it's inauthentic to me.
>> And both of them feel very uncomfortable. M.
>> And it's >> so Androgyny is your sweet spot.
>> Androgyny is my sweet spot.
>> Although sometimes Mexican gangster is my sweet spot, too.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I get I get compliments by the Mexicans. They're like, "Yo, what's up?
That looks good." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah.
>> Oh my gosh."
>> Would you ever perform Mexican Gangster at all? Do you ever >> Oh, I do.
>> Okay.
>> I do. It's a It's a a thing that I practice, you know?
>> Okay. Jonas, was there a moment where you were like inauthentic in your I feel like this happens usually at the beginning of people's queer journey. I think I generally have no choice but to be this specific set of things. Like it's a very specific set of interests and niches that have never quite fit into a category. So I it it's hard. It was always been hard for me to even try to be performative >> cuz I'm just it's always off like a performative blackness. I'll never do.
No, I sound like this. I very assured in my historical knowledge in the rituals and traditions that I personally follow in the heroes and icons that I look up to. I'm also, yeah, I'm also 5'4, AAB, and like I'm already kind of defying a certain amount of very traditional racialized expectations of what a a black person should be. So, it's like I can't I cannot even like I'm not going to fit there anyway.
>> Yeah. I'm not going to just all of this in combination with each other, it's not there's no way. I just can't do that.
when it comes more to querness and non-binariness. Well, for non-binary specifically, it's like I first got the terminology for this gender identity in the pandemic.
>> And I think I would have been performative in that time if there were people to perform to >> truly >> because that was your experimentation period, right?
>> That was my experimentation phase.
>> So, it's me. It was just you in your room >> literally in a shoe box condos literally the size of a closet just like wearing whatever ordering new clothes from like vintage or consignment stores like just trying on the new me and >> uh accepting it. And I just I just I think I naturally just chafe >> so much at inauthenticity that I'm like I'm not going to use words that I don't feel >> um are organically coming from the just the the vernacular that I've developed in the communities that I'm in. I'm a weird specific set of obscure film references um R&B music and overly competitive video games. Like this is this is the thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Trying to perform that is already work enough. I remember when I first >> came out as bisexual, lesbian, I don't know, there was a mixed journey going on in there >> and as I was trying to attract women, I was doing masculinity in a way that was like not um authentic to me whatsoever. You know what I mean?
Like I was just trying to wear the standard mask lesbian outfit and I just put it on my body and it felt like a costume. I don't know, maybe other people didn't perceive it that way, but I felt like there was like an inongruence. And I think a lot of people have this phase, right? Like the rainbow flag phase.
>> The rainbow flag. Yeah. Yeah.
>> I'm out. You're like holding it up.
>> Yeah.
>> See me. See me.
>> One thing I have noticed is that I wasn't getting too many dates during that period. And I think it's because people can like >> sense like they're attracted to an authentic aura. You know what I mean?
It's like someone who's like fully realized because I feel like I attract more people now as I have a full realized identity going on, right?
However, I don't think this is inherently bad. I think this is part of finding yourself and you need to go through the experimentation phase like you need to be the egg and you need to try things out. If you're shy, do it in the safety of your bedroom. Take some photos. Like even take a video of yourself. Spin around. See how it looks.
See how it feels. like really take it in. Go try it on in a space that feels like a safe space to you with your close friends. Get some feedback. You need to try things.
>> Even if you bring it down to like what colors look good on you, like what silhouettes look good on you, how to dress your body. It's like these are learned things. You don't automatically know this.
>> I think my version of this journey is with makeup specifically.
>> Come out.
>> Yeah. Constantly chopped.
>> America's Next Chopped model was always though it's play. You have to experiment.
>> You have to experiment. You have to let you have to do too much. You have to do too little. And then you have to find your middle ground. And then you just kind of have to constantly push and play >> and feel comfortable in that play. That is such good advice for >> the baby non-binary, the baby egg.
>> And I think if you're trying makeup, >> pre-show makeup. That's what I do.
That's how I got better. Beat your face right before you're going to take a shower.
>> Why?
>> You're going to clean it off. You're about to get in the shower. if something is going to get painted over or if it's just feels more casual. It allows you to like experiment and be more playful, you know? So, it's like when the stakes are low, you don't have to go out in a second because oh my god, the panic of like having to do a full beat for the first time ever and you have somewhere to be. It's going to turn out bad. It's going to turn out bad.
>> Only ever in that situation.
>> Don't do that. Practice before the shower and then repeat it.
>> I'm out here taking notes. Okay.
>> But you had your you had your moment.
Did you go out in public and you felt like it wasn't right or what was the moment?
>> Less that it wasn't right but more the fear that it's wrong. First is just getting used to the tactile feeling of application and it sitting on your face and then the concern of like what if it's smudging and what just literally explaining the most basic sensory experience of wearing makeup. But it's something that being socialized male and then just literally becoming non-binary.
It's like I have to experience this for the first time. I have to learn and I have to let it feel not necessarily uncomfortable, but it I have to let it feel new until it becomes part of my system. Still in it.
>> We're all still in it. I feel like uh we always have people that we kind of aspire to look like or, you know, use as like a reference or like, oh, if I could look like this, it'd be great. Dame Judy.
>> Mhm. When I was younger, I was like, I want to be Zack Efron.
>> And now, >> mission accomplished, >> actually. Yeah.
get me a basketball. But uh I I constantly have people that are like in the rotation um or switch them out new rotation where I'm like I want to look like this, I want to look like that. And I take like little things and I'm always I think I'm constantly evolving into the person that I want to >> be, but also look like, which is like kind of a different thing. In terms of like visual aesthetics, there's always something or someone that I kind of want to look like more, >> but what I look like now is what I wanted would have wanted to look like >> 5 years, 10 years ago.
>> And then so going back to the question >> that I kept bringing up, which was, what if nobody knows I'm gay? Well, there's many factors into that.
>> Yeah.
>> For example, how into your journey are you?
>> Have you experimented?
>> Does what you look like, what you sound like, >> your vibes, does it all feel authentic?
Like, how far along? Is there a level of desperation underneath all this?
>> Because if there is, nobody likes desperation.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> Your problem might be a different problem. Maybe they know you're gay.
They just think you're gay.
>> Maybe they're just like, "No, no, no. I know you're gay. I just don't want that."
>> Oh, no.
>> I don't know. I don't know. There's more questions to be asked.
>> And maybe it's not because you look a certain way, >> right?
>> One, >> maybe it is. But >> one thing I was going to say, okay, I'm to preface this. I'm a Taurus. I hate being out of my comfort zone. I love the comfortable, right?
My equilibrium at home is constantly pushing myself out of my comfort zone because I think that's how you grow and evolve and become the person that you want to be, right? Is like constantly being a little uncomfortable. And I think discovering your queer identity >> is a process of putting yourself out of your comfort zone constantly. Seeing it as not a bad thing. I see it as a good thing. Like being uncomfortable is good and it can have good outcomes because it expands your comfort zone and it brings you closer to your Zack Efron >> and closer to yourself Efron.
>> Closer to the man up there.
>> Closer to God.
>> Closer Efron, closer to God.
>> Let's jump into chapter three. And this is us digging into the camp performance of queerness and how to authentically signal your querness. And I would say it's really time to lock in and start customizing that applic.
>> Yeah.
>> If you want to signal, you got to lock in.
>> Be serious. If you're not serious, click away. Just kidding. Stay.
>> Okay. Bringing us back into kind of like the aura of camp because I would say one level of signaling your queerness is your campiness. That playfulness, that campy energy, the queer energy and aura is part of what makes an outfit feel authentic, I would say. Right. Like if you're putting on the gay costume but you don't have the gay aura, >> there's something inongruent going on, you know? And I think that was part of what was inongruent for me when I put on my mask uniform for the first time is like I didn't I wasn't fully embodied yet.
>> And it takes a little bit of practice, but I'm wondering both of you have a campy essence. Was this always there for each of you? How did you get there?
>> I'm not going to lie.
>> Mhm.
>> I have never once in my life perceived myself as campy.
>> Really? I feel you have that aura when I was watching the show at least. I don't know if that was like your stage persona, but I feel I felt a campy aura from you.
>> This part goes back to the thing of like one campiness being hard to describe and two there.
>> Not to get deeper into the sag, but she kind of divides campiness into two camps.
>> Yeah.
>> There's like intentional camp and naive camp. And she prefers the naive camp for the record.
>> So perhaps you're doing naive. I think I'm doing naive camp cuz now >> I had to reress like following this new knowledge of my understanding of camp which had honestly taken on a derogatory tone because I was thinking of camp in the post RuPaul era where I think I'm informed of the term as it is applied on the show which is kind of devoid of like an artfulness and a tastefulness and is just simply leaning into that too much definition just about extra I think it almost feels like also the metgalification of camp too where it it was just becomes an aesthetic rather than a queer culture specific term.
Right.
>> Yeah. You know, >> it's the same thing that happens in this uh sag essay. It's it's becoming divorced from the subversive nature >> of camp. And the thing I do consider myself is subversive >> in in various ways. And in that way it does make me camp. But I had to I had to go through this me whole mental journey of being like wait I'm campy.
>> I'm not campy.
>> Is that like when you received these questions and I called you camp in the question? You're like >> I was like wait a minute.
>> Huh?
>> What is actually camp anyway? Oh camp is really cool actually.
>> I am camp. But I think what's really important here is we proliferating the understanding of like >> camp isn't just ridiculousness.
It's ridiculousness served >> on a golden platter with silver utensils >> in a barren room where you can't afford the furniture. It's the performance of excess and and frivvality coming from a marginalized community that actually tangibly has very little. And that act of subversion, that act of performance is the point. It's the it's the humor.
It's the irony. But for me to find the style that I now accept as camp, it is camp. We're camp took a day.
>> It took a day. You received the question, you processed it.
>> It took about an hour.
>> It No, it just had to interact with certain other parts of my brain that I didn't know were connected. I'm like, yes. It comes from just the reality of being like a visible like black queer person and knowing >> just kind of existing is going to be on some level subversive to >> the quotidian western life, the average uh white Canadian experience. There's going to be some tension that this body and this perspective brings.
>> How can I have fun with that? How can I play with that? How can I bring a sense of joyful rebellion in the way that a black and queer life has to be the way that that life breaks the rules of what we expect here? Having more of an anti- capitalist politics, having like a rehabilitative restitutional politics, a sense of politics of no shoes in the house, >> no outside clothes on the bed, >> no outside clothes on the bed politics.
All of those things coming together to form this core identity >> that interacting with uh having the means to now experiment with queer aesthetics happens to equal camp for me.
>> It's an unconscious process. Yeah.
>> Is what you came to, you know, and it it was for me too. Having created this essay, I'm like, okay, I feel I've almost arrived to it. Like you said, Carbon is it's a constant evolution. And like the goalpost keeps moving as you like see someone where you're like, "Oh, I love how embodied your querness is. I love how embodied your like authenticity and and identity is and you have a new goalpost where you're like, I want I want to go further. I want to like play more."
>> I think something that's like really helpful in the development of your avatar, of your character, is surrounding yourself with some sort of queer exposure.
>> Yes. Whether it be TV or like a podcast like this one, like honestly, every single conversation that we have >> on our episodes, I learn something new.
And in that thing that I'm learning, I unlock the next like customization of my avatar.
>> Even just having this conversation right now, I'm like, I feel like I want to get a haircut.
>> So much of camp is cultural references, you know what I mean? So you need to be either in community or if you don't have access to that consuming it in some way, right? Through a podcast, through TV show, through queer content. It's like finding your reference like what feels authentic to you. And I think that's how the camp becomes authentic is customizing it to yourself and your own interest and how it feels right, you know? Like follow what you love, follow what you're passionate about, perhaps follow what you loved when you were a child, you know? I think that's one of the messages, too.
>> I want to be a cowboy this summer.
>> Yeah. Oh yeah.
>> Wait, >> I think I want to be a cowboy this summer.
>> Wait, I think I want to be a dame in a saloon. I think >> beautiful.
>> Wait, >> I just want to cover myself in silly things. This is a good question. What do I want to be this summer?
>> I feel like it's camp to even say what I want to be just this summer.
>> Yes, literally the question.
>> It is cancer. stupid >> cuz a lot of people the gray interior design population >> they're just like this summer and the winter and the fall and the spring it's all the same gray gray gray >> a little bit of beige for us we could be like who what character do I want to play this summer I think I want to be a cowboy >> but then if I get chaps especially if it's black then I could turn it into like can I be like >> a rave >> like a rock and roll No like a rock and roll.
>> No. No. Who are you? Sorry. Sorry.
That's me.
>> No, that's you. Yeah. You know, like black boots, black chaps, black like like leather and like freaking >> And that's a good character for the winter.
>> That's a winter character. I'm planning I'm planning.
>> Oh, your seasons are laid out. Spring, summer, fall, winter.
>> They can be queer essence for me. I'm trying to think about it. Like, how did I come to it?
>> It's through living a little. I think you can expedite it surely because I think if you make queerness your special interest the way I have then it'll happen faster you know talk to more queer people engage in it and and that is how you find it. I think you got to disappoint some people.
>> You think who are you disappointing?
>> It could be anybody. You could pick you take your It could be your parents.
>> Your parents easily.
>> Easily. That's the lowest hanging fruit actually. Absolutely.
>> Uh beyond that, it could be like ex friends that you have. It could be some sort of outwardly public persona that you have, whether it be an online presence, whether it be like familiar, whether it be like, you know, friendship wise. and you're just like, I'm going to >> I'm going to disappoint some people. And then when you disappoint them, then you're like, well, then I don't need to really impress anybody. I can just do what I want.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's freedom. But I think that's almost a call back to the question I asked at the beginning of this episode in the intro, which is like what's behind this desire to not embody your querness? Because there is, like we were saying, a lot of like lesbian, non-binary people complaining online about like not being clockable. And some of it may like maybe that doesn't actually feel authentic to you. That might be like number one. Like maybe this actually maybe you actually at your core are Aritzia gray clean girl, you know, like and that might be who you are.
>> Yeah, >> I will I will give that to you. However, I think like safety concerns, social trauma, conditioning are all other factors that maybe you haven't >> I don't know given yourself the space or time to look at. But Jonas, you speak about this idea in episode one of In the Closet. There was a moment when I was like 9 years old. I don't know. I was just having a little fun with my clothes and everything was always like baggy on me. So, I kind of just did a fun thing where I kind of took this giant neck hole I was swimming in and I just stretched it over one shoulder and exposed some collar bone and the shoulder. And I I like the look. It was It was a fun look for the day. And then my stepdad at the time saw that and was like, "Don't do that. Take that off.
People out there are going to think you're a [ __ ] faggot." And a moment like that just cuts so sharply for someone so young that I think that that kind of atmosphere instructed me to hide. And so even today in the beautiful soft boy luxury pieces that I own, I think that my instinct is to cover up to make sure I can control people's perceptions in that way and feel safe.
>> And I'm wondering if you can kind of speak to the own like your own obstacles that you've overcome in order to like embody your querness.
Yeah, it's like >> kind of for sure a trauma response like having a experience that young having a harsh denial and realizing >> um even like a non-binary aside just the idea of being a gay person is like >> no it's not the person the parents expects the person to be >> right >> this is coming back to disappointed I mean yeah >> it's got to start somewhere and it starts usually starts there so that was kind of the platform that instructed me, okay, we're going to put this away >> for now until I know one day I'm going to have a space to experiment. We're going to have to work towards that and get there. And then when I got to the space and I got there, it just happened automatically. if you're a non-binary person, once you achieve that safe space, like it just it kind of just starts happening because these are the natural internal curiosities that lead you to become that that form your literal identity. Mhm.
>> The reality is is I'm still working through it because so many of my garments are like these safe pieces that that do represent like my political moral beliefs like >> no fast fashion, slow fashion, things that are handmade that are traceable to the people who actually make them.
>> Yeah.
>> If they can be paid a fair wage making the garments like I'm drawn to that before even what it looks like. And then when it's also fashion, that's the best of both worlds >> and Montana.
>> That's what I was going to say. Yeah.
>> And and and think that is the seminal queer literature.
>> But yeah, it started it starts with the trauma.
>> Mhm.
>> Knowing that I need a safe space.
There's also this is a big part of nonbinary that's a throwing apart to talk about. There's an economic aspect and there's a racialized aspect where it's like a concept of masculinity and feminine binaries that we that are related to like whether we become clockable by finding that middle >> is not the same for everyone because of the euroentric ideals of both those extremes in our society. And so for me as a black male presenting body, it's like like I feel like hair is a big part of the journey I have to extend myself on to find a more fem place to get the they them.
>> Mhm.
>> On on notice on on like second one.
>> Is that your next step of wanting to explore like fem hairstyles?
>> Might have to do a documentary on it.
A cropped afro is not necessarily a fully masked like there's like fem presentations within the black community, but within larger like euroentric dominated femininity.
>> Yes.
>> Afro does not play into the the >> white ideals of feminism and >> and the black woman is masculinized in >> white euroentric society. All of that is part of the politics I have to grapple with to still achieve the response I want to get.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, and then the other part is >> economics of like signaling requires the ability to have the stuff, the stuff, the the the aesthetic pieces, the literal clothing and the trinkets.
>> You have to have money to buy the things, to wear the things, to show who you are. And for a long time, a lot of the clothes I had were either hand-me-downs or discount West 49.
>> And I was not into being a skater boy for as long as I had to endure it.
>> Achieving that place of like this personal safety of some sort of economic independence and a racially harmonious space that was my bedroom during the pandemic. That was when I was able to really open the door to just trying and learning and experiencing what non-binary was for me.
>> Would you ever do like some like long cornrows with like little pink accents in them?
>> I would love to. I had >> that would look so cute.
>> I did like two big braids with like blonde extensions even though my roots were black.
>> My scalp got so itchy on the second day I had to take them out right away. I will say very expensive too. a lot of like black women's hairstyles are so expensive to achieve. Um, and then the ones that are more accessible get very masculineized like you were saying like natural hairstyles are do get very masculineized.
>> But yeah, this is also just the continuation of the journey and I'm really excited to speak >> of the non-binary experience is not as someone who's coming from a place of like I've completed the thing. I can give you the answers. I know what to do.
>> I think it's never completed. It's never completed. And so any nonbinary, >> not in a bad way, >> not in a bad way, in a way that can be exciting and fun for us.
>> So exploratory >> exploratory and and this is the point of non-binary. So, if you're a non-binary person out there and you're not feeling entirely set >> in what in who you are and if the world is not telling you you're non-binary enough, >> just knowing that that's a place that so many non-binary people are in and progressing through that and continue to refine and define yourself.
>> That is kind of in this imperfect world that we live in.
>> Yeah.
>> That is the non-binary way.
>> All right. So this next chunk that I want to get into are some ways that people can start to queer code and queer signal. So I have a few examples that are also like rooted in history that I want to share just a little bit of, but then I want to end it off with kind of a brainstorm of how people can start to dip their toes in. I think Adonis, you brought up a lot of really good points of why people might be nervous to start like expressing their querness so quickly. And I think even the financial barrier is huge, too. So, it's like how do we start to dip our toes in >> and cuz I think that's a big way. It's like you can't immediately expand your comfort zone way out here. It's like >> little by little >> got to build up. You got to build up.
>> The first thing I want to talk about is queercoded hairstyles. So, what do we think are the most queercoded hairstyles?
>> A mullet.
>> The mullet. The mullet is key. The mullet is iconic, especially now.
>> Yeah.
>> If you want to get your journey going right now, >> get that mullet going. This is relevant for right now, right? Later on, it might be some it will be something different.
>> It might be very straight coated in the future.
>> We don't know.
>> We don't know how the tides will turn.
>> But in this moment, it is the mullet for sure.
>> Yeah. The mullet, the wolf cut, the shag. I would say some other honorable mentions would be undercuts, colorful hair.
>> Yeah.
>> And then like very clean grooming.
>> Colorful hair for sure.
>> Like clean grooming for gay men.
>> I would say undercuts.
>> They had their time.
out of style.
>> I agree. They're a little bit.
>> Yeah. But there I still think though if I saw someone with an undercut, I'm still reading you as gay. That still is effectively queer coding.
>> Of course it is. Yeah. I just think in terms of >> the mullets and the undercuts out >> what's in style, it's the mullet and >> I would even say that the colored hair, >> it's like, >> you know, there is such a thing as overboard.
>> That's for sure.
I love a girl with full pink head.
>> Okay. Well, that's just what I think. I I love the audacity. Like, I'm like, that's going to be a loud woman. Get over here. Be my friend. You know, like I I'm into it.
>> Okay.
>> Um, >> but I want to talk about the mullet because it is important and it's also really interesting and very campy actually. So, the fact that the mullet was originally very associated with workingclass masculinity, like rural communities, hockey, rock culture, straight, >> it's giving redneck, you know what I mean? Am I allowed to say that? I don't know. Um, >> but like it is it's giving that, right?
And especially in like North America and Australia. So, how on earth did it become like associated with like city center queer leftist?
>> I have no idea. But it's pretty cool that like we take very straight coded things and we're like it's queer now >> and make it better. Now it kind of works.
>> What makes it camp is it's like another example of queer people reclaiming bad taste, >> like the quote unquote bad taste. Like what is it's campiness is like a love of >> bad taste. the bad taste and it's like making it fun.
>> So tasteful because when you wear a mullet with a skirt, it's different.
>> It's so different.
>> Way different.
>> And I would say like the the visual like representation of a very rural potentially conservative haircut >> on a queer body is like that is so ironic and camp.
>> It is hilarious. It's powerful.
>> Yeah.
>> We need more rat tails. We need more cowicks.
Well, the cowboy, the queer cowboy, which is what I'm going for.
>> I'm going for that. This is my summer queer cowboy era.
>> And there needs to be an episode on this if there isn't already.
>> Cowboy.
>> Just cowboy. There's a lot to to unpack.
I think >> cowboys are gay. Cowboys are very gay.
And what's interesting also, I remember I was dating someone whose family members were like rural kind of people and I went to their family gathering with them with this haircut. And one of the people there thought I was from the country.
>> Oh.
>> Oh.
>> Because they read me they read me as country coded because they're from the country.
>> You know what I'm saying? So they read of us. They didn't they didn't understand the queer codedness of it though which is kind of it shows the effectiveness though the shadow language happening >> which is kind of fun I will say.
>> Did you feel like super cool and like an undercover spy?
>> Yeah, a little. I was like how silly and funny that you're not reading this but it just is like interesting information to take in.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> I don't know. Um also like the mullet disrupts gender norms if you think about it. Like I feel like it's a very non-binary haircut if we think about short masculine in the front, long feminine in the back. It's giving androgyny, >> you know, and the idea the idea that it's a haircut that both men and women wear. That's kind of interesting though.
>> Yeah. Gender neutral.
>> Yeah.
>> It's one of the few It's one of the few haircuts everyone can and should and must do.
>> I'm trying to think of other >> the the afro I think the afro is gender neutral.
>> This is very true.
as a child.
>> B that is >> that's that's against your will then No one has ever >> maybe that's what if that's the next mullet >> the bowl cut queerccoated bowl cut >> I don't know if I could go back to that but that would be a side by side of me as a child with the the straight bowl cut across.
>> Yeah, >> cuz I did have that.
>> It'd be kind of sweet. Let's bring that into style.
>> That's pure on parental laziness. I think >> the thing that surpasses the bull cut for me though in that vein is like the short bob. The bob that goes through here.
>> Oh yes. That's my dream.
>> Bob, >> you need to get a wig. I need to get a wiggy.
>> You need to get a little wiggy.
>> I have a little blonde >> a bob a little blond moment. I need to find her.
>> Okay, another piece I'm going to say about the mullet and this is my last thing is that it's a rejection against beauty norms. Also, like you know when people are talking about like man repellent outfits.
>> Yes.
>> I think a mullet is like a man repellent haircut >> in that like it being intentionally ugly >> in a camp way is repellent from like this is straight man.
>> Except not anymore.
>> They've caught on.
>> They caught on.
>> They caught on. They see it as hot now.
>> Yeah. What's the new >> I think that also shows that it's like maybe this haircut is like at the end of its trajectory >> possibly. Quite quite >> and we're about to get something new.
>> Yeah. The bull cut.
>> The bowl cut.
>> Soft launch.
>> Another piece of hair that I think is really important to talk about is the gay mustache. It got really popularized in the 1970s, kind of like right after Stonewall.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That little that little guy going across.
>> Yeah. And it got very popular in the gay community because it was a way to like counter the stereotype of femininity as a gay man like of that being an inherently a feminine thing. So it was like this whole like butch gay man look became very popularized >> tight clothes frilly things but then you got that mustache.
>> I would say >> counter >> the full look actually was fully mask in the 70s. I think it's taken on a new life modern-wise cuz I think the gay mustache is having its comeback for sure. But the full look originally was like tight Levis's work boots, plaid shirts, leather jackets, and muscular bodies. So it was like both a campy parody of the blue collar masculinity and a mechanism of survival too because it was like they were cosplaying as a straight person, right? So, it's like for the unassuming eye, they would see a straight man, but in the gay community, it's like, ooh. And depending on where their handkerchief is, if if that's part of the mix and which pocket it's in, what color it is. Oh, now we know the full story.
>> Absolutely.
>> Did we talk about hanky coat? Well, whatever. Hanky coat is one of the big things. I'm skipped for this.
>> So much a thing now. Not anymore.
It dated out and that's why I didn't bring it up for this conversation is like not too many people use hanky coat anymore. However, >> I still use it.
>> Yeah. Just purple around.
>> But I would say like the gay mustache is having its comeback. But I do see straight men also wearing the gay mustache and I point it out to them every time. I'm like I tell them I love the gay mustache specifically that they're wearing.
>> Yeah. What do they say to that?
>> Some of them like it. Another piece is earrings. This is it. Like I'm talking subtle ways that you can start flagging, right? I think a haircut is like a pretty easy intro. And I think you can slowly get to a mullet. Also, I will say like you can start wolf cut then mullet.
>> I think easier is an earring. If you just wear one earring, it's pretty gay.
>> That's the next thing I was going to talk about. So wearing an earring only on one specific side. Right ear piercing signaling you're gay and left ear piercing signaling you're a lesbian, which is what I do. I wear that constantly.
>> I actually did both today. Oh, >> but they're different colors. One's gold, one's silver.
>> Interesting. So, you're both a gay man and a lesbian is what you're trying to say.
>> And that is correct, actually.
>> But I always signal that way. Like I always I don't know if anyone clocks that anymore, though. I'll be honest.
Like I was said, like through the '9s, earrings got really popularized, so it stopped being a clear signal. But I don't think a lot of people, a lot of straight people especially, don't wear one earring. I think that still kind of works. Yeah, I would still clock it as you got some queer going on. If you have one earring on, especially if it's like, >> you know, not like a hoop earring. If it's like got a little story to it, if I'm curious about your ear, >> a story.
>> Yeah.
>> Any piece of clothing that has a story behind it, I'm like, >> I know who you are. Tattoos with heightened emotional meanings. Okay.
Gender diverse.
>> Another one would be tattoos.
>> Oh, yeah. What kind of tattoos do you think are a signal?
>> Okay, so I think like the patchwork tattoos.
>> Oh, you think that's very queer?
>> I think it's super queer.
>> I would agree actually. I see a lot of it. I think it's the inability to make a decision >> cuz a patchwork sleeve is like >> experimenting. You're just like, I like this and I like that and I like this and I like that and I don't know >> the in the inability to plan and make a decision.
I also think there's like specific symbols you can use like for if you want to do some like sappic lesbian stuff, you can get a beautiful pair of scissors tattooed on your body. You can get a woman loving woman, two female signs.
>> You can you can get gay just across your neck.
>> You can even do the forehead.
>> You could do Yeah.
>> I mean, I know Yas also has literally them or they >> them >> them right on their on their chest.
I'm getting clocked for the rest of my life.
>> Like bam, >> that's them, >> you know? So you could quite literally you could do that.
>> Yeah, you could stamp it on yourself.
>> It's a joke, but also not a joke.
>> But also like a bit practical.
>> It could work.
>> Yeah.
>> I've thought about getting they them tattooed on me.
>> Not right there.
>> You should do it under your lip and be like >> Oh yeah. Be like my hand and be like and someone's like can't do that.
>> Yeah. Sorry.
>> Sorry. Oh, you should get they and then them on the other one.
>> They them.
>> Please, please, >> please stop.
>> I kind of really like that idea, actually. No, no, >> no, no, no, no, no, no.
>> If you're a girl with this struggle, like a fem lesbian, you could literally get girls or like some sort of like um like a fruit like a whether it be a peach or >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> dragon fruit or something like that and then there's like >> a tongue licking it. That's pretty clear. Totally >> game over.
>> Another thing for fems, I will say, is when you have a full set of nails, but two of your fingers are short.
Immediately clock.
>> Yeah, that's that's game over.
>> Immediately I know what your message is.
>> Rings. Wear rings. I don't have any right now, but I think I'm clockable regardless.
>> If you wear the more rings you have, the more gay you appear.
>> That is actually a really good point.
Another very easy in a pin. If you're not ready for a tattoo, get a little pin. You could literally get a pin of scissors.
>> Yeah, >> you get a pin of a carabiner. You could get a pin of different things. There's also carabiners, obviously, is another very lesbian thing.
>> iconic. The origins of carabiners as a lesbian symbol is like in the butch fem community, specifically with butch lesbians who were working very industrial jobs alongside men adopted very masculine and like functional styles, especially like tools to hold their keys and their tools as well.
>> And this included heavy duty carabiners.
And I think the reason that this one has continued on to stay popularized today is because of the crunchy granola lesbian.
>> Mhm. I see >> she is also practically using that carabiner.
>> Yes.
>> You know what I mean? So, it has continued to stay relevant.
>> It does have a practical use >> and it's so easy. I feel these are all very easy things that make you immediately clockable to the queer eye, >> right? Do we have any other suggestions?
Especially for the non-binaries.
>> Septum piercing is very helpful.
>> And you can flip it up.
>> You can flip it up.
>> That's a flip up one. Tattoos also cross over into non-binary very well.
>> Your knuckles. Get it on your knuckles.
>> Get knuckles.
>> That's actually really good.
>> And I have enough fingers for it.
>> Is that It's perfect, actually. Oh my gosh.
>> I kind of want to see. You got to >> I should get I don't have I'm very un >> And you can do like gay wrist when you present it as well. You're like, "Oh, sorry. It's this.
>> If this isn't enough, >> no, do >> Yeah. No, it's like these are my pronouns and then when they misgender you, stop it. Stop it. They're on the >> some recurring articles that came up in in the closet is a lot of crop tops.
>> Crop tops are immediately clockable.
>> But I think not necessarily belining for a non-binary cuz it's it's very simply queercoded, but when it comes to queer signaling, >> we're right there.
>> It makes you go, "Wait a minute. What do you like to be called?"
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And can you hit me with those pronouns just one more time?
>> Got you. Clothes that make you laugh.
>> Silly.
>> There's some some something about silly clothes fits within the world.
>> I would agree >> of non-binary.
>> I think sum it up also this whole discussion. I think the key message is playfulness and inner child. like you were bringing that up like that is such a core theme of like authentically signaling because there's nothing more authentic than your inner child and all of these tiny little things are a good starting place especially if you're in your egg phase you know like you just began and started all of these things could look authentic on anyone you know what I mean like a little tattoo um the way you're doing your fingernails a pin a carabiner your earrings potentially a hairstyle you know like all of those things. It really doesn't matter at what stage you are at. Those will look authentic on you.
>> Maybe not.
>> Grills.
>> Grills.
>> Leave them grills.
>> This is what I want.
I want to try it. So, >> at the bottom, >> a flavor of flame style necklace that says >> for sure. This is what I want.
>> There you go.
>> This is what I want. And a blonde bob at the same.
>> This is what I need.
>> That's amazing.
>> That's my future. That's my summer.
>> Okay. So, that is a great place to end it. Before we wrap it up, plug yourself.
What have you got going on?
>> I have this six-part docky series called In the Closet that is streaming now on the NFB YouTube page. You can watch for free.
>> That's National Film Board and the link is in the description if you want to check it out.
>> I'm also a live performer in Toronto.
Check me on Instagram Charlie. You can catch me doing shows all over the city.
And last thing I'll plug, I'm a staff writer on this CBC sketch show. This hour is 22 minutes.
>> Cool.
>> Long running show. Season 32. It's been on longer than I've been alive. We're making it fun and quirky and youthful now. And that's >> about Canadian content.
>> So, that's everything that we have for you today. And if you want to dive deeper into non-binary identities, we have an episode called Non-Binary: The identity everyone gets wrong. Thank you to In the Closet and Tomboy X. If you want to check them out, they'll be in the description down below. Make sure to like and subscribe. And if you're listening to your favorite podcast app, make sure to leave us a fivestar review because it really does help the podcast out. That's everything that we got and until next time, >> peace.
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