Windscribe's Yegor Sak Explains How C-22 Will Kill Canadian Business

[00:00:00]Today I'm here with one of the co-founders of Windinsscribe, Igor Sack, and he's here to talk about his business, what they do, as well as how they're going to be impacted by some of the Canadian laws that are proposed, including Bill C22. So, um, welcome.

[00:00:18]>> Oh, hello. Great to be here.

[00:00:20]>> So, I guess to start out, uh, can you tell us a bit about what Windinscribe is? What do you guys do?

[00:00:27]I guess the simplest way to explain it, it is a it is a VPN. That's what it is to most people. Ultimately, it's a bit more than that. Can I call it a privacy suite of tools that you can deploy on your devices to, you know, regain a little bit of privacy online u in an everracked world that we're living in?

[00:00:47]>> And for the people who don't know what a VPN is, can you explain a little bit about sort of h what that is, how it works, and why you might want one? Yeah, I think a lot of people already know know given that, you know, there's a lot of advertisements uh that you see particularly on YouTube sponsoring every single YouTube video out there. But fundamentally, what you what you see in the ads is not really true. Uh what a VPN ultimately is is is a trust shift service, right? That that's kind of all all it is. Like if you don't trust your internet service provider for whatever reason, you know, they're collecting your data, they're selling it, they're spying on you, whatever you might feel, or you're on some shady Wi-Fi hotspot and some some place you don't trust the operators of that uh of that Wi-Fi hotspot, you choose to shift your trust to somewhere somewhere else essentially, right? uh and a VPN is that because ultimately uh when you're using VPN in theory the visibility on your traffic is is the same to the VM provider uh as it is when you're not using a VPN to your ISP right so you have to make a choice hey do I trust this entity or that entity more right uh and that's it's kind of in a nutshell that's all it is uh right what does it do ultimately from from the outside perspective you know as you're browsing online your IP address changes uh as as you're visiting with different websites or using different apps. So, the operators of those services will see a VPN IP address or something that belongs to a VPN company.

[00:02:20]It could look like a a data center IP.

[00:02:22]It can look like a residential IP. So, you might look like you're using a different internet service provider or something like that. And but that's kind of that that's the meat of it. uh you know, Windinscribe does a lot more than just change your IP address because ultimately just changing your IP doesn't really give you a whole lot of privacy online given the fact that you know there's when you visit an average website you know especially the news news websites you might think like hey um I'm just loading this thing there's a bunch of text and a bunch of images and I'm getting the news or whatever you want to call that thing uh but but in the background your your computer is making like literally hundreds hundreds and hundreds of uh requests that you don't see. They're loading all these different assets from all these different tracking company servers, advertisements, and all advertisements are trackers. Uh so your information or you know your IP address, your yeah like what your browser fingerprint and a whole bunch of other stuff gets essentially leaked to all these random entities who then collate it and they use it to sell you stuff. In the best case scenario, they use it to, you know, track you on the internet uh in order to see what what what kind of habits you have, usually to sell you more stuff, but not always. Uh these things can be used for quite nefarious things because this data is then sold to whoever wants to pay for it, right? Yes, they do say it's anonymized, quote unquote, but given the shady natures nature of data brokers, you can't really take their word for it and there's no way to uh for them to prove it that it's anonymized in any way.

[00:04:01]>> And the studies have found that even when they get anonymized data, they can deanmize it fairly quickly because you just look at however many unique identifiers and you know you've got a person there.

[00:04:14]>> That's right.

[00:04:15]Um, I also find VPNs are great for those circumstances where you've got um hostile or kind of abusive I like providers. Um, I remember I was staying at a hotel at one point that had free internet that injected like a one-third of your page uh popup onto every page you visited and it was just, you know, switch on a VPN and suddenly that goes away because it prevents those intervening like it prevents them from meddling with your traffic because now it's encrypted. They can't see it so they can't >> inject stuff or >> you know.

[00:04:53]>> Yeah. Oh, I I should add uh again that that's also part of uh most VPN company's propaganda is most like these days especially maybe 10 years ago or more there there were ways to quote unquote strip encryption uh by abusing certain things. Uh in this day and age, most of your traffic is already encrypted. Uh when when you're on HTTPS website, uh which is basically everything online with very very few exceptions. Uh that data is already encrypted between your browser and the destination server. So an outside attacker cannot see inside of what what exactly that you're looking at. Uh and they cannot they cannot modify the contents either because if they could that means they can break encryption and that like underpins the entire internet.

[00:05:38]you know, whoever has that capability can do anything uh on the internet. Uh >> yeah, this this was a bit of a a sort of previous era, I guess, like 101 15 years ago, but it was obnoxious and u >> and you'll get places that for instance will get very interfering into what you're doing. So, you try to look something up and it'll go, "Sorry, that's against our terms of service."

[00:06:00]And you go, "Well, I'm just trying to look up like true crime." Like I try to look up the latest murder story and it's like you searched for murder. You can't do that. So >> yeah, >> you know that kind of >> or you're searching for murder from the wrong country for whatever reason. You can search it from from here but not from here.

[00:06:18]>> Uh yeah, I know people who travel overseas and often find in certain countries that a VPN is basically a necessity if you want to um to see like the internet. Um, I guess one thing that people sort of talk about is there's a lot of sort of suggestion that privacy tools and so forth are solely for for like bad guys, right? That this is stuff that criminals use. Um, is that your sort of take? I assume you're not like having a business to support crime. So, like what are the the legit like what are the reasons like an ordinary person might want one of these?

[00:06:56]>> Yeah. So, ultimately I'll break that up into kind of like two categories of people. uh for I would say most people uh VPNs are a necessity and uh and for others I would say it's a luxury right and the difference is if you're living in a country like Russia, China, Iran and honestly most of the Middle East parts of Africa where uh you know there's heavy censorship online if you say the wrong thing uh the local police will come to your house and put you into prison.

[00:07:30]Uh, and the wrong thing could be anything. It could be arbitrary. It it doesn't matter. If you're an activist or or you want to, you know, access the news, for example, like in Russia, all Western news is blocked. So, if you want to know what's going on, uh, you can watch state propaganda or you could try to access something outside of the country, but you won't be able to, uh, because everything is blocked, right?

[00:07:53]So, if you want to if you want to know what's going on, you pretty much have to use a VPN. You have no choice.

[00:07:57]Otherwise, you are literally in the dark. Uh, and if you want to, you know, be be an activist, uh, show something that's happening inside of your country to someone on the outside, you know, you pretty much have to use a VPN because, you know, if you don't, there's going to be dudes who will come to your house and you will not see the light of day for many, many years or maybe forever. You know, I I have a, you know, a personal example. I'm originally from Barus. my uh and I moved a while ago, but uh my uh childhood friend is is serving eight years right now. Uh well, he's like five years in. His crime uh was he said a mean thing in a telegram channel uh about a local it was I think it was a judge. He was some kind of bureaucrat basically. Uh just said a mean thing about him and it got eight years uh just for that kind of mean >> setting the fact that he didn't use a VPN even though like I totally gave him all the subscriptions. You don't have to pay for anything.

[00:09:01]>> Uh but he uh from what I heard from his dad is he had two SIM cards and he would just swap them saying mean things on one SIM card and swap it back thinking that that would be enough. But it was not.

[00:09:14]Yeah. And I mean, we have a tradition here of, you know, being able to say, you know, mean things about judges and mean things about politicians. We actually say that's some of the highest protected rights. But really, a lot of your protection for those rights is that it sort of fades away if the government can still make your life miserable over it, right? if they um because the first protection for it is to make sure you can say those things without the government for instance you know dragging you out of your house and you know even if you ultimately beat the charges you know you may not have had the greatest of experiences and so I I think it's important and even for the people who are like well I'm in Canada nothing like this will ever happen here which is a dangerous statement because there's plenty of people in bad places that were like nothing bad could ever happen here.

[00:10:10]>> Um the availability of these tools.

[00:10:15]>> Yeah.

[00:10:15]>> Yeah. Know we like historically. Yeah.

[00:10:18]It's like, oh yeah, Canada or you know, most of the West, yeah, you can you can speak your mind and say things even though the government might disagree with it, you are you're free to say those things. But that is slowly changing and you know, as as you're probably aware with all the bills that are proceeding through the House of Commons right now that are literally touching this exact topic right now.

[00:10:42]>> Yeah. And one thing that many VPN providers advertise including yourself is you know we don't keep logs because if you keep the logs then those logs can be demanded by you know some government like you know that wants to harm its citizens for their speech. And so the best way to protect that is to say we don't have them. That way they can't be stolen by hackers. They can't be, you know, like even if they got a spy into your organization, if there's no logs to get, they can't lift them off of your servers.

[00:11:18]So, how will bills like how will these bills affect your day-to-day business and sort of what you can offer and what you can't offer?

[00:11:27]>> Well, yeah, though, for for us, it's ultimately existential. uh cuz the whole premise uh you know of privacy is the fact that uh you know we we don't store anything and we cannot be forced to hand anything over because we don't have anything. And some people might think, okay, it's like, okay, this is clearly catering to quote unquote criminals, right? Like, why would you not do that?

[00:11:50]I mean, that's like a very naive way of looking at it because uh for example, you know, do people uh use VPNs sometimes to commit crimes online? Yes, they do. People also uh use hammers from stores to commit crimes. They use cars to commit crimes. uh anything that is a tool can be used to commit a crime. Uh like literally pick anything that is a tool. Yeah, >> you can you can use it to do bad things, right?

[00:12:20]>> And uh from from our perspective, it's not like it's not our uh we don't want to play uh you know judge, jury, and executioner on a on a global scale because for example, what is considered a crime in one country is not a crime in another country. Like for example, western country for for now you could you you for now you can say mean things about the government or you might voice your disagreement. In other countries uh that is a crime right now. And uh if we were to keep logs uh you know can then we'll be able to quote unquote help law enforcement catch the bad guys who are obviously bad you know if you're doing like actually egregious things with these things. Do we want to help abs ultimately? Yeah. like we don't want people using our our tools to do bad things. But if you open that door and you have that information now, you pretty much have to help everyone because we we get subpoenas from all kinds of law enforcement worldwide. And the our answer is the same. We don't have anything. But now we do now. And now we uh can we lie to them and say we don't have it when we do? Well, that is a that is usually a crime in in itself.

[00:13:31]and you know, we're not going to go to jail for uh for a $9 subscription. Uh but then now we're forced to help them.

[00:13:38]And now you have you have I don't know, an activist in Saudi Arabia who said some mean things about the crown prince uh which is a crime over there. Now we have to help them put that person in jail.

[00:13:51]>> And that's not something that we want to be a part of, you know. Well, and even within >> even within Canada, there's countries that view it as their right to police their former like their citizens or even people who are no longer citizens but who were born there or who are sort of and so they'll like try to police people here in Canada and try to monitor their activities such that you know expats and so forth might be punished. Um, the other thing that always occurs to me with all of these logs is that if you're forced to keep logs, those logs become a treasure trove for anybody who might want to use them for ill.

[00:14:35]>> You know, if if I wanted, you know, if there's some guy out there who I really don't like, if I have a complete log of everything he does online, that's tremendously powerful for me to go after him. So it creates this incentive for um for criminals to target those logs if they're required to exist.

[00:14:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know some companies are better suited for storing vast amount of data. Uh you know in fact those are who are suited for it already storing this information anyway.

[00:15:10]You know the Google the Apples the Metas and and all these they're storing quite a bit of stuff. And and let's be honest here, uh this law is probably not a big deal for them because they already have all this information. It's already available and it's uh and it's stored for a lot longer than a year. It's it's stored permanently. Uh right.

[00:15:29]>> So to them, uh it it doesn't really matter. But for literally everyone else who's not in the business of harvesting user data and selling it and using it for advertising purposes, which is, you know, like 99.9% of things on the internet. Now, now they're going to be potentially forced uh to keep this data uh if they're served with a secret order that you cannot tell anyone about. You cannot dispute it in court. And if you open your mouth, you're going to be fined or and probably eventually jailed essentially for opening your mouth.

[00:16:06]>> I mean, that's one of the things that I find really concerning is the fact that they're saying that these orders have to be secret. So that if you get an order that says disclose this, you can't tell me if it's my data and you can't tell the public that they're coming after your data. It's just got to be um and when you start looking at like dangerous governments, one of the first things they do is start acting in secret.

[00:16:31]So, this is very worrying to me. Um are can you because I know in some places they use things like warrant canaries.

[00:16:38]Have you looked into what like whether you'd be able to use a warrant canary with these kinds of laws?

[00:16:44]>> Yeah. So, I briefly looked at it. Again, I am not a lawyer.

[00:16:48]>> Yeah. Uh but like warrant canaries are a thing in the United States and from what I gather the main reason for that is the constitution because they they have a right to not have compelled speech basically because essentially if you if the government ser if you have a warrant warrant canary says hey we were not served with any with any orders or anything secret blah blah blah blah and then you are the government can't force you to basically lie and keep saying yep we were not serve that that would be compelled speech. Canada as far as I understand doesn't have uh such laws against compelled speech. Um so it it is a very gray area. Can uh are we planning to have a warrant canary if put if if this insanity continues? Uh most likely uh and and test the waters. But it's by no means guaranteed to be fully kosher and can with Canadian laws. But again, I am not a lawyer and we we have some folks looking into it right now.

[00:17:50]>> I suppose I should explain for the people who don't really know uh you know th sort of things. The idea of a warrant canary is the same as like the canary dies in a mine but you just post like every day or something. We have not been served with whatever and then if it disappears then people go okay the canary has died they must have gotten a warrant. Uh, I'm concerned that that sort of tactic is made impossible because of the language saying like you can't directly or indirectly reveal it, which um might create the circumstance where they require you to make positive statements that are lies um to your customers, which um is concerning >> very much so.

[00:18:33]And so Windinsscribe has said that they may leave the country and so have several other you know big providers including like Apple has said that they might just you know abandon Canada over this. Is that like a real possibility to say we can't function in Canada anymore?

[00:18:51]Well, ultimately, if Bill C22 is passed in its current shape and form, uh, namely the the data retention directives, if you're deemed a a core provider by the order of the minister, uh, and and the gag orders that are associated with it. These are like the main two things that are really really bad about this. There there's more things, but these are the worst parts of the bill. we would have no choice because we cannot uh offer a service that we've built over the last 10 years.

[00:19:23]We have to completely re-engineer the whole thing uh in order to invade people's privacy. And let's also not forget uh we can't really tell where people are from, right? It's like, oh, it's just with Canadians. Well, we don't know who's Canadian or not because we don't collect like all personal information to use our service is optional, right? You have to give us an email. You don't have to give us any names or phone numbers or anything. You could choose to pay with crypto. Uh and then we literally don't know who you are and where you're from. But in order to enforce this law, we would have to collect this data on everyone in every single country. In in some countries, you know, like European countries, you know, there's GDPR, which kind of says the opposite. So now by complying with Canadian laws, we are in violation of other count's laws and that puts us into a very tough position.

[00:20:18]So moving would be the only option at that point.

[00:20:21]>> You think the government would want to protect the privacy of Canadians rather than undermine it.

[00:20:27]>> So >> yeah. No, it's it's actually quite ironic uh cuz like Public Safety Canada on their I guess on their socials and and their PR push campaigns in the same bre like literally it was like a week ago or week or two ago in the same breath while they're discussing why C-22 is good and how it'll keep Canadians safe. They're also promoting the fact that Canadians should use VPNs when when on public Wi-Fi like literally on the same day all while literally trying to outlaw them. uh in the same breath. It's quite crazy to me.

[00:21:01]>> It's bizarre like just the that that they don't know whether they're coming or going. Like you need to protect your privacy, but we also want to invade your privacy. Um >> yeah, and also take away all the options because I mean like ultimately like right now Windscribe is the last Canadian VPN privacy service that is actually based in Canada and operated out of Canada. There were a bunch of others. they got acquired or or merged with American companies were the last independently owned Canadian privacy service of this type, right? And even though we're based in Canada, uh less than 5% of our revenues are from Canadian uh like we uh from Canadian users. We uh it is an estimate because you know uh this is derived from the Apple store and the Google Play Store where you do get a bunch of metrics. You have no choice because Google and Apple collect them and they show them to you.

[00:21:59]So we can kind of estimate it percentages uh and it's less than 5%.

[00:22:04]For other VPN providers it's likely less, right? So when it come when push comes to shove, you know, if you're not based in Canada and you're like, "Okay, well we're not going to comply with this crazy law." So it's it's it's very easy to just say we're just going to cut cut these guys out and if if you're if you're from Canada, we're just not going to serve you anymore, right? Because of this insane law.

[00:22:23]>> And at that point, >> it's such a tiny market comparatively.

[00:22:28]>> Yeah.

[00:22:28]>> And it seems to me it's got to be impossible to compete. Like let's say you let's say you do add this and you put in all the back doors and all the whatever and then you're trying to sell your product to the world. You'd be competing with people who can offer real privacy when you can only offer privacy asterisk.

[00:22:47]>> Like how would you be able to stay in business in that circumstance?

[00:22:52]>> Well, you can't uh that's that that's the answer. Yeah, there's no other choice.

[00:22:58]>> It's uh Well, and VPN is also an encryption product, right? Because it encrypts from, you know, the one end to the other. So, what about the, you know, the concerns that they're saying that this might require you to put a back door in the encryption? Is that something that's possible to create a law enforcement only back door that can't be abused by anyone else?

[00:23:21]>> Yeah. Know, I mean, there there's there's no such thing as a law enforcement uh secret key that only the good guys have. If if there is a key uh that can hypothetically exist, it it will not be used solely by the quote unquote the good guys. Once you put in a weakness uh and a back door, well, in this in this case, I would argue it's more of a front door than a back door.

[00:23:46]Uh it it's going to get abused uh by shady characters online.

[00:23:53]And I mean even just things like foreign governments, I could see, you know, Russia, China, etc. sitting there and going, "Okay, so there've got to be these secret back doors.

[00:24:03]>> Mhm.

[00:24:04]>> Let's, you know, either apply supercomputers to this or just the oldfashioned thing of identify who would have the keys, >> you know, some police office and just be like, hey, here's a duffel bag full of cash if you give us this key." Um the notion that it's going to stay secret and not get abused just seems to me to be terribly naive, you know, over time.

[00:24:27]>> Yeah. No, and it's it's it's not just hypothetical. Like this this literally happens like uh I think it was a few years ago, maybe even even last year. uh was a a Chinese group. Uh uh basically they've they've breached an American telecom provider and abused the the lawful intercept functionality that all these networks have built in in order to collect data and and spy on on Americans using lawful intercept tools that were built specifically for this purpose for the good guys, but they were abused by a foreign government. And it makes it very attractive especially for foreign governments when it's like hey yeah every single one of these services have this has this cash it has this back door uh and all we need is a way in and once we're there all the data is there for the taking and I mean that that's terrible for anybody who wants to do like a Canadian tech business because their secrets could be exfiltrated um or just Canadian security in general.

[00:25:31]You might have somebody who they want to target because they're a nuclear researcher or a biological researcher or whatever, get all of their data and then, you know, use that for, you know, blackmail and leverage on that person.

[00:25:46]Just, you know, the degree to which this undermines Canadian security to me is just such a a huge u huge issue.

[00:25:55]>> Yeah. No, it it kind of makes us look like clowns on the global stage. Uh and that's not a way to get foreign investments into your country when you pass laws like this. You know, in fact, you know, Canada should love us because more than 95% of our revenue is foreign.

[00:26:13]We earn it in and bring it here. You know, when we employ people here, we spend money here. We're like, you know, it's a net flow of cash that goes into the country and is spent here, right?

[00:26:25]They should love us, but they do not. we we should be celebrating and protecting Canadian businesses, not >> forcing them to flee the country because of, >> you know, these crazy laws that are, you know, a problem.

[00:26:39]>> I guess um you guys are also likely to be a target in this whole age verification push that's coming. Um >> uh yeah, it's it's hard uh first, they haven't released uh the wording of this next gem that they're going to drop on us. Uh but yeah, apparently it's going to be social networks only at first.

[00:27:02]>> And who defines those lists? Uh you know, >> is there some way to identify like a teenager that doesn't identify the adults?

[00:27:14]>> Oh, what do you mean by that?

[00:27:16]>> Is there some way for them to be like, we're only going to collect the ID from the teenagers and not from every adult?

[00:27:22]>> Well, yeah. Ultimately, there's there's no way to know who's a child or not unless you literally ID everyone and you 3D scan their face to make sure the ID scan that they've provided is real. And now you have yet another data cache that uh exists in all these places that you're going to be providing your ID to if this bill actually, you know, become becomes law.

[00:27:47]And it's it's same old story you know uh you know companies that uh you know are offering a service now they have to build infrastructure to do all of this to store this in some safe manner when that's not their business and and and these data caches are going to be breached and have been breached. There's countless examples of the uh of this over over the last >> the the Australian one made it what like 3 days before it got breached. It was uh >> Yeah. No, there there's just too many there's too many to count, you know, like it's these things like should not should not be mandated and ultimately it's not the government's job to raise people's children. You know, parental control tools exist. They're literally free.

[00:28:39]Apple and Google offer offer them free of charge. It takes >> 10 to 20 minutes to set them up. If you don't know uh how this stuff works, ask Chad GPT. It will walk you through it.

[00:28:51]There's videos. There's everything. It's no excuse to be like, "Well, all this is so complicated. The government should just do my job and protect my children from from the internet." that no, it's it's literally your job as a parent to do that. And if you're too lazy, uh uh that's not an excuse to violate the privacy of literally everyone else.

[00:29:15]And I mean, if you start requiring companies to collect this, at least some of them are going to take that and not just collect it for the purposes of, you know, that they've been told, but also start selling it and to all sorts of people who will misuse it. Mhm.

[00:29:30]>> I mean, you know, if you imagine walking down the supermarket and, you know, suddenly an ad kiosk calls you out by name because it's had a camera that can recognize your face that they got it off of, you know, this stuff. You know, it seems to me we're setting the stage for some very dystopian things through the government just, you know, wanting more and more control.

[00:29:56]>> Yeah. No, like I think the combination of all these bills like C-22, uh, C8, C9, and this H verification when I don't know if it has a number yet or not, but together they literally create this horrible dystopian future uh or or rather kind of replicating the things that are done in more authoritarian countries like China.

[00:30:21]China had this kind of stuff for a while now, right? Russia is building up the same kind of things and and here we're doing the same thing because ultimately like uh what what can happen and will probably happen if all of these bills are going to be passed and it looks like they are where you know you say not now you're using a I don't know social network at first but then it's going to be literally any other any service you do anything that the government might deem quote unquote hateful uh and just okay well this is this is some type of hate. Uh they go they go to the provider. It's like, "Yeah, who is Joe below 64727?"

[00:31:03]It's like, "Oh, well, here's their ID.

[00:31:05]Here's what they even look like. Here's all the all the metadata associated with it. Here's the internet service provider. Here's where they live. Uh here here's all the dudes come to your house. They charge you they charge you with some type of crime uh under C8 uh with a ministerial order. you get disconnected from the internet because you are a threat to cohesion and democracy or whatever whatever the excuse is. So while you're awaiting trial uh you're basically offline and and then and then you go to prison in the end for uh for words.

[00:31:42]Yeah. I mean the possibility of like you insult a politician and this gets misused. you insult the police. Like you go online, you say, you know, the police really bungled this investigation and you know, suddenly you get, you know, somebody showing up at your door going, "We know that was you." like, you know, it's going to be a threat to um, >> you know, and it might be that they don't arrest you for what you said because it's like, okay, we got the charter, but suddenly like you can't leave your house without them pulling you over and being like, yeah, we're going to we need to check and make sure every headlight is functional and um, you know, you go one kilometer over the speed limit, you're getting pulled over, you're getting written a ticket, you know, the sort of harassment people like the police can use against, you know, all of that becomes possible if they can identify, you know, who their critics are and who their detractors are in order to target them.

[00:32:41]>> Yeah. And you don't have to like imagine this. This is literally happening in in the UK right now where people are literally going to jail >> for saying a mean thing on the internet.

[00:32:53]In fact, they're jailing so many people.

[00:32:54]I think it's like close to like 10,000 people per year or something like that.

[00:32:59]Uh if you look at the stats, UK versus Russia, Russia jails fewer people for saying mean things on the internet than the UK despite having double the population. Just think about that.

[00:33:12]>> I mean, it's getting kind of terrifying in these uh these things. I also just was struck by how the the language of because one of the concerns the government has is what about these you know internet groups that won't play ball right like if if there's some foreign VPN company or some foreign website you know if you imagine like you know if Reddit or Twitter or whoever else says we won't cooperate with you know this age verification requirement the government has proposed we're going to ban all Canadians from accessing that site by telling the ISPs not to allow those connections, which that's the architecture of the great firewall of China. That's that's, you know, that's how they control what their citizens are able to see and view and so forth.

[00:34:07]It it shocks me that they're looking at those kinds of authoritarian regimes and borrowing the same kind of implementation to bring here.

[00:34:17]>> Yeah. No, unfortunately they want to do the exact same thing. Uh uh you know, they uh social credit system is probably coming here as well. Just uh one step up at a time. They're building the foundation right now and all all of all all of that is is most likely coming at at least uh with our current government which we're going to have for another what like 3 four years or something like that. I mean unless something dramatic changes that's um that's the case. It is kind of telling how as soon as they got the majority the things that they're pushing through or all of these internet censorship and control measures.

[00:34:58]um as opposed to things to protect privacy, to protect freedom of expression, to protect any of these things. It's instead um restrictions and monitoring and spying and you know these kinds of things.

[00:35:13]>> Yeah. And it's like uh I've been listening to all the to to well not all but some of some of the committees and listening to law enforcement and their reasons for wanting things that are in C-22. It kind of like, you know, boggled my mind. They're like, "Yeah, this is going to it's going to help us solve crimes." And it's like, "Okay, well, well, how?" And uh I think it was the uh OP commissioner or I think it was OP commissioner mentioned, yeah, um you know, when investigating a crime, you know, then we go uh do a subpoena and then it takes weeks or months for it to get processed through the system. and by the time it's granted all all the data that we wanted from that particular provider no longer exists or it got overwritten or whatever. So it's like okay so this the solution here is to force everyone to store it for a long period of time. What about >> and that also seems just like a lie to me because they can get a subpoena or a warrant like the same day. That's not, >> you know, I regularly see the police get warrants like within the hour, not within the month. So, >> I mean, if they're selling it on that basis, that's just deception.

[00:36:33]>> Yeah. But even if we were to believe them, you know, it's like, hey, uh, and it does take a long time, maybe in some cases. Well, how about, you know, let's speed up the system, uh, instead, you know, and how do you speed up the system? Well, I mean, you don't have the same kind of offenders going through the system like like a like like a like a turnstyle, right? Someone gets arrested for a violent crime, you keep them in jail, you know, not you don't release them the next day for them to get rearrested the following day. And now now you're just put like you're literally wasting court's time processing the same few bad apples. And as a result of well not not exclusively as a result of that but partially that's why why our system is is clogged up right and keeping violent people in prison will keep Canadians safe like actually >> yeah it's you know we are inefficient therefore you can't have privacy is um >> it's a very concerning sort of setup for all of that. So >> yeah, because I mean ultimately that's like these are just words, you know, and when they say, "Hey, we're going to protect the children with this age verification stuff." Ultimately, they don't care. They don't want to protect your children. They they they just want the data to be there uh for the taking in case it's needed. In case you're ever uh you know, a suspect in anything. Now there's caches of data that well that may uh make everyone guilty of something you know at some point >> whenever the government says you know we're here to protect the children you should be concerned because that's usually how they u how they dress up privacy and rights violations because it becomes harder to argue against. You can't say, "Well, I'm for freedom."

[00:38:24]Because they say, you know, you're, you know, you're just out to hurt kids or you're okay with, you know, kids being hurt. But, um, I think it was Vic Taves who famously said, you're either with us or with the pedophiles. But now that's what our government is. You know, they're trotting out the same um same arguments. So, it's u concerning.

[00:38:46]>> I believe they call them minor attractive persons now.

[00:38:50]Well, u what does it uh it's it's a weird uh weird chaotic world we're in, but um thank you so much for for coming on. Is there anything you want to say sort of as a a last word here just in terms of you know for the people watching?

[00:39:07]Yeah, ultimately if you if you live in a liberal writing, uh talk to your MP and voice your dis dissatisfaction uh with what what's happening because ultimately all that's needed here is just a handful of people. You know, they do have a majority and arguably a stolen majority. Uh you know, unprecedented way to get a majority. I don't think this ever happened in the history of Canada uh for any party uh to quote unquote win a majority in the way that this happened with the floor crossings. But all it takes is a is a is a handful of MPs to say no uh we're not we're not down with this. And >> unfortunately under our whipped uh whipped vote system, it's unlikely that anybody breaks ranks which um >> it happened before. you know, uh, >> we can hope that somebody stands up for uh, for liberties in Canada, but um, >> yeah.

[00:40:05]>> Yeah.

[00:40:06]>> Well, we'll see.

[00:40:08]>> Well, thank you so much uh, for joining me and thank you uh, once again and we'll uh, wrap things up here and um, yeah, thank you so much.

[00:40:18]>> Yep. Thank you.

[00:40:54]HEY, HEY, HEY, HEY.

[00:41:26]HEY,