Heart Rock Cafe | Women In The Work Place | Episode 6

Added: 2026-05-15

[00:00:13][music] [music] Welcome to another episode of Hot Rock Cafe where we have heartfelt conversations over the solid rock of faith over cups of coffee. Today we're here to talk about women in the workplace, all its multiple facets, its nuances, its wonderful um fruits and gifts and also the challenges that we face. But basically, we're here to say how we can be rooted in faith and rising in purpose as women in the workforce.

[00:00:53]With me as my co-host is Kanisha. I'm Mela. I've been in the workforce for about two years now. I work in software in tech. Uh I've also been working in the banking field for about a year or so before this. And I'll pass it on to Canister to introduce herself. So I've been uh in the content writing field for about a couple of years now. And um I'm also into news editing currently. I work for an organization called Catholic Connect, but I also had the spiritual content section. And with us today, we have two incredible and inspiring ladies as our guests for this episode. And I will now uh hand it over to them to introduce themselves.

[00:01:35]>> Hello, I'm Jean and I have from the healthcare sector, worked for almost 28 years, married for 23 years, and it's really a pleasure to be here at the Heart Rock Cafe talking about faith and women and how we grow in our workspace.

[00:01:52]Hi, I'm Roina. Thanks for having me here with you. I thank God for giving me this opportunity.

[00:01:59]I'm at the moment working in St. Joseph's College of Law as a student counselor, full-time student counselor.

[00:02:06]I started off doing many things.

[00:02:08]Initially, I didn't want to even have a career. Uh though I got uh you know um 94% in maths, I didn't take maths for my [laughter] uh PU. I didn't take maths.

[00:02:18]And I was very clear I didn't want a career but still I'm here. So that's how life took me. I did um um I editor I was an editor in medical transcription for a while. After my kids came I took a break worked uh did the hybrid kind of a thing those [snorts] days but I could work from home also. Then I tried working at office for a few hours and then working home. And then when my second son came, my second child came, I decided to do night shift and that's when I I thought the brilliant idea of you know having a baby, newborn baby and taking care of uh work you know that didn't work and I spoiled my health and so I took a break complete break and started taking care of myself and started learning things to take care of myself and that's how I landed in um doing psychology and working in St. Joseph's. Now >> that's so incredible. I'm just going to interrupt really quick to uh ask how many years both the both of you have been married, how many children you have.

[00:03:14]>> So I'm married for 23 years. I have two incredibly beautiful daughters.

[00:03:19]>> My elder daughter is doing international relations and public policies in uh OP Jindel in Delhi and my younger daughter is in ninth standard in Bishop Bishop Cartins. I'm married to a businessman.

[00:03:30]So that's a different challenge at home.

[00:03:33][laughter] [gasps] So I'm married for 22 years. Uh I have two children. My daughter is doing her second year in um engineering. Yes. Son is in ninth. My husband has definitely been my backbone, my support. He's allowed me to do this roller coaster, try these things on and off. You know, you want to work, you work. You don't want to work. You want to be a stay at home mom, you do it. He's given me that uh freedom. So So that's how my family is.

[00:03:59]>> That's wonderful. So Jean, would you like to um take us through your journey?

[00:04:02]You've been working for 20 plus years.

[00:04:04]So, how has your career trajectory been so far?

[00:04:09]>> Yeah, that's um a really interesting story and I tried to sum it up as as in in a short nut nutshell. I started my career uh actually doing accounts you know closing accounts for a direct sales executive a company where you know I was you know uh selling sa savings account and current account and uh mutual funds.

[00:04:35]Um from there I wanted to fund my education. So I was funding my education through my care through my job uh post which I got this opportunity uh in in in the night uh the call center. So I used to do night shifts and I used to go to college in the day. God led me to Hyderabad and that's when I joined uh another call center and then slowly moved into HSBC uh where I did projects in planning and with HSBC I I headed four projects uh which which was completely different from what I studied. I studied MSE clinical nutrition and dietetics but I was working in the field of economics, commerce and finance. I was audit I was auditing banks. So uh post which I took a break where I during my journey with HSBC is when I got married and uh when I was going to have my first child I took a break and I was a full-time mother u I moved to Bangalore back and I took up careers in the field of education and aviation I took up uh the field of uh healthcare and then retail government retail uh I was heading Fab India and Rutakumar two prestigious um [snorts] uh retail brands and then my heart always called me back to healthcare and that's how I moved uh I I stabilized myself I I into healthcare and I've been there for almost now 10 to 15 years uh I head hospitals which are 100 bedded and uh I work with a team of 150 to 200 founded members. Uh this has been my journey and I have gone in and out of various industries and I think that's how God leads when you are completely dependent on him and not on your own qualification your capabilities what uh talents you have uh you possess. I think the best thing is to rely on him because he is the rock and he is our provider.

[00:06:50]So I think I relied on him. Every time I went for an interview, I had interviewers ask me, "What do you think?

[00:06:57]How do you think you qualify to be in this industry?" And I said, "No, I don't qualify to be in this industry, but I think I can do what you want me to do."

[00:07:04]And how I did what I did or I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish is because I kept God as my boss. I didn't work for man, but I worked for the ultimate boss. uh with the fear of the lord. I think that's my humble uh you know journey in my career.

[00:07:24]>> That's so beautiful. Uh I think we have more than qualified guests on our panel or today joining us here to all our viewers. [snorts] I am I feel so lucky and I'm sure Kisha feels this too to be sitting here with such incredible women.

[00:07:38]I hope you feel as lucky as we do too.

[00:07:41]Uh but kind of to get things kicking off, uh the both of you spoke so highly about your families um in tandem with your work. And I think something that already as a young woman in the work field that I feel like is important to me is to try to strike a balance between work and life and you know my family and my personal obligations and all of these things. But I struggle with that. Right.

[00:08:09]Do you think that there is a sort of balance that can be found or is something that you constantly have to compromise between one or the other?

[00:08:17]>> So yeah, it is work life balance is a topic that all women struggle with at the workplace. But I think acceptance is the best solution to this when you have to stay back and do the duties of a woman towards your husband and your children. I think that break is justified >> and uh well it was not justified a few years back but today when women come to interviews after their maternity break or after their uh uh you [snorts] know break because of you know certain family members falling sick or anything. I think we have to accept that break because they have not uh they have they have been able to justify their role in in a different uh perspective.

[00:09:06]So I think corporates are now uh beginning to be open about sbatical breaks and I think that's the way forward for women to get an equal standing in the corporate world else it will be very skewered towards you know gender and and diversity can never be achieved >> be it politics be it corporate or be it any any field >> so yes there's always a struggle between work life balance and as I said acceptance is the Women should not push themselves towards the edge where they are, you know, losing their mind over their career or losing their mind over the family.

[00:09:47]>> That is important to know when to take a step back and and recoil. And when you recoil, try to invest your time uh or your money into something that will enrich you when you hit back, when you enter the corporate world. uh fortify your qualification, learn a new skill, energize yourself, justify your sbatical clearly to your uh new employer and I think that should take you forward.

[00:10:19]That's so uh that's honestly such a refreshing take because I think today's world is very driven by this idea of hustle culture and no matter what you kind of have to do what is best for your career over everything else and I think especially as a counselor uh Ravina you you might also be seeing that even though it's from the perspective of still a student base that I feel like that's still something that's embedded in especially in Indian culture from the time we were students that no matter what your grades are what comes first.

[00:10:51]Your job is what comes first. It doesn't matter if it takes a toil on you physically or in your personal life.

[00:10:57]>> But the two of you also spoke so beautifully and like you said as well of taking that time like you mentioned taking wanting to prioritize your family. You mentioned prioritizing yourself and your child and taking that rest, right? Um and especially Romina, I want to direct this towards you because you mentioned having a difficult time also when you stretched yourself out so thin by taking on these night shifts and difficult uh times. But in the mo in the presence of that I have noticed that the both of you have given so much credit to your families to your partners especially. How do you feel like the workplace uh comes in tandem with your marriage or your personal life? And do you feel like you know it is important also for the ideas of the partner or the marriage or the family to evolve to be able to accommodate a woman in the workplace.

[00:11:54]>> Yes, that that is that is very interesting talking about work life balance also. know uh Marila I wanted to tell this part that that's a day-to-day process work life you know it's just uh we can't push it off saying that it is for after 3 months or after 6 months not after we get a burnout it is a day-to-day choice that we need to make as you saying it's a choice that we need to make where we decide that we are going to give time for ourselves out time not to do anybody else's work not to do my family's work just for myself and something that I can relate to in terms of rest and when I take rest when I get tired I would suggest you don't take a break don't quit >> but rather you learn to rest >> so when you when when you were talking about the work life that's what that was what I was thinking about and talking about family now through my u [clears throat] you know the different kinds of uh work that I did definitely my family my family is exactly the the reason why I chose this uh kind of a uh variety in my work choice of work was based on my uh family as it grew. When I had my child, first child, then my my uh support system at home was not very good. So I needed to give that and since I was a new mother, new parent, you know, we got married very early at 20 24. We were both 24. So careers were not very big. You know, my husband also was starting off. So it was a choice when I said yes, we're going to take you know, this is the time we need to give her. And I had a girl child. So I needed to give in fact more time and uh and hence my career was hybrid. I wanted to make that choice where I have her I can see her I can see her growing.

[00:13:34]I didn't want to miss that out.

[00:13:36]>> Mhm.

[00:13:37]>> And women work in workspace. You say that the choice the sacrifices that we make are huge and the sacrifices are that we miss out on those moments you know that's a huge choice which I was not able to make and so I chose to work you have that balance of doing work from home and and that's with my child and when my second son came it it happened again the night shift came into play when I thought I could do things so the family the the stage of my family makes a huge made a huge role in my choice of career and my time and that's what I would say.

[00:14:12]>> I just wanted to add one thing [clears throat] like you said Marila we've been blessed with men in our life uh who supported our careers. It might not be the case with all women. It is always a challenge that the partner uh is able to understand your career aspirations allow you to you know do night shifts you know like both our husbands allowed us to do night shifts u there is a trust factor >> which comes into play how do you combat all this how do you that's why I always tell women um you know the Christian women is don't go against your faith Look for a partner within your faith.

[00:14:59]>> Have a premarital counseling.

[00:15:02]It's very important. The premarital counseling that I attended, the person who was counseling us gave us a very clear he told my uh my my fiance he he said she has a career aspiration.

[00:15:16]So will you allow her to grow in that and you should support her. So those became our foundations. You know today I you really to all the men who are listening to this and to all the women who are listening to this make very very clear choices with the man you will spend your life with that is the biggest blessing you can give yourself and if you can choose a man who's in faith I got a lot of proposals I couldn't understand the digest the concept of marrying a guy whom my parents showed me and go and live in a foreign country.

[00:15:54]>> I wanted a man who will kneel down with me and pray when you know storms hit us uh will not be at the bar or will not be with friends or you know but would be there with me and we would pray together. So it's very important to choose a man within your faith circle and also at the same time set clear expectations talk make each other understand what your career aspirations are. My husband has had a yo-yo in his business. I stood like a rock with him when my career when I had to take a break. He supported you know my needs.

[00:16:32]Not only did he supply for the family, he also supplied for the needs that were mine which I was used to because I had surplus money. So whether it's just going on a trip with friends or you know going out you know shopping >> you know just like a me time shop shopping. So he allowed it. He he he he took care of it. I I so again to just sum that what I'm trying to say is that you have to make your choice of a man very prayerfully very prayerfully today what you see in a man might not be there in him 10 15 20 years so look at the foundation faith is a foundation god-fearing man is a foundation a prayerful man is a good foundation to put your life on to build your life on >> thank you honestly so much for those pearls of wisdom I think from the both of you also to see that the way that you've prioritized your life and what's important to you specifically to see how it's been so fruitful now so many years later even when in the start it must have been really difficult to prioritize is really inspiring for me as somebody starting out in my career I'm sure also uh resonates this opinion of mine but kind of to question because I think that this is something that I fear a lot right the worries of like the stress of like feeling the guilt of okay I'm about I'm a woman and naturally when that happens that kind of leads into the question of when marriage comes into the picture when family children come into the picture do you ever feel like there's the notion of guilt for having to prioritize either your work over your family because that your work is your work it's what defines to a certain extent the independence we have as women, but also that instinct of wanting to be a woman of the family, a mother, a wife, a daughter, sibling, right? How do you navigate those tradeoffs and strike a balance there without feeling that guilt or is that something that's natural?

[00:18:39]>> The guilt. Yes, that's that's I think you know [laughter] it's a dayto-day thing that we have to you recover from you know every [laughter] day. Yes, the guilt is there. But then uh the choice that we make [laughter] and now Netflix.

[00:18:57][laughter] So so that's a choice again. It's a choice when you have to remind yourself every day, you know, why did you do this? Why did you choose this? If it's going to be for work, it if it if you're going to um you be a working woman, then okay, my choice was for this because of this. And I know that my children are in the right hands. you know that uh safety that security is there and that's the choice that you made and then when you get back home you know [clears throat] you you have a fresher mind I feel that now since I've been a stay at home mom and at work when I get back home I feel that I need to do more for my family >> then in the 24 hours that I used to stay at home all the time you know time used to stretch >> there never used to be those those routine the routine was not set and the specific time for things time for family time for self that was not very clear but now It's far more clearer.

[00:19:48]>> So I can clearly put this time for family, for myself and work. And the shift is beautiful now.

[00:19:55]>> So that's a choice for me.

[00:19:57]>> Yes. Like yeah, guilt is something that um you know, I'd like to put it like from 2 to 28, you know, there is that guilt, you know, but what I can assure you is that guilt becomes an experience that you will invest in somebody's life.

[00:20:14]Mhm.

[00:20:15]>> So there was a lot of guilt. I I I was due to write my IS entrance and I didn't because I was so blinded in love and I wanted to get married and then um you know there is the the thing of embarrassment you know uh when I went back after my marriage I had this yellow thread and green bangles and mahendi and you know when I went back to work everybody's looking oh my god you look so married [laughter] I was like Yeah. What what does look so married mean? But yeah, I am. But today when women come back after marriage with their judas and you know it's more like celebration you know in the office space you know people go and attend their weddings and they you know HRs are more >> more accepting of these breaks. But yes what I what I would say is the guilt that you go through now can you can you shoot it down? No. It will be there. You will face it. You will feel jealous of your husband who's getting to get out of the house while you are, you know, being required to stay at home to take care of your child or take care of a family requirement.

[00:21:29]>> Um, you will see that he's progressing in career and and suddenly your your life has taken a setback. But today when I sit with my daughters and I give them this uh these pearls of wisdom as you said, it's no more guilt. It's an experience.

[00:21:46]It's it's turned into a an advice or a or something that they can learn from.

[00:21:52]And I tell them, you know, I took uh marriage over, you know, a a very important exam.

[00:22:00]>> Mhm.

[00:22:01]>> Uh what would your choice be? you know not imposing mine but what would your choice be I've done well in my career I have nothing to regret but still today if it was that path what would it have been so are you going to make a similar sacrifice and if you are going to make that sacrifice >> you should not be regretting it later [snorts] so yes there will be times of regret guilt embarrassment but then when you come to this side 28 years 25 years I think it'll become just a beautiful memory that you will share and you know laugh over it and then say well as far as you've relied on God for your provision and for your providence and for your path you'll be happy you'll definitely be be very happy.

[00:22:50]>> Mhm. And as a as a daughter as well, I'm so so so so grateful for the sacrifices that for instance my mom has made for me, right? And it's definitely a sign of the things and the life that I want to lead in the future. So to to the two of you, to my mom, to Kenisha, >> Kisha's mom, uh, and to moms out there, like we really love you and appreciate all the sacrifices and the innumerable feelings that you have to go through to be able to like deal with us. And sometimes [laughter] I know that's not pretty.

[00:23:21]>> And I recently read an article that girls or young women who have been motherthered by working women come out to be stronger. I think when I read when I read that article I said yeah I think Delhi Shanan you're going to do really well because you saw a working struggling profitable and providing mother. So >> yes.

[00:23:45]>> So thank you.

[00:23:46]>> Yes. Adding on to that note what uh Jean was saying when when I was a stay-at-home mom and my children were there you know I was at their beck and call for anything you know I was there I found that they were getting so dependent on me and their independence was so compromised and I felt as a kid I was far more because my mother was a working mother I was far more independent at that particular age and I felt what am I doing the point of the whole sacrifice was for the children and I didn't see that you know in them I thought as when my mother was working I could do so much more at home you know be independent on my feet and that's when I said okay no I should slowly transition myself and I started doing church work when I had to be out of home and children had to figure out how to you know uh feed themselves and so those things small changes happened and then I transitioned to proper work so so that's a difference >> absolute kudos to the both of [laughter] you [gasps] >> yes um thank you both of you I think it was such a positive approach to a subject um something like guilt. Yeah.

[00:24:49]So I think that also leads us to another topic which is so widely spoken of today and that is mental health at work. So um I think from your personal experience what I would like to know and what I think would benefit the users is um how will how can you uh individually um identify early signs of that your mental health is going for a toss like Roina how did you identify like when you're doing night shifts so if you can give some practical tips I think that would benefit all of us >> the biggest thing I think is being snappy you >> [laughter] >> small things will just trigger us. You know, things that you wouldn't mind on other days. If if you had been on a holiday, those things wouldn't have mattered. But then on on days when you're really stressed out, those small small things, you know, things that people simple things at home like not keeping the things back in their places, not keeping the cup, not tidying, that would get so irritating and annoying on us. And that's where I felt that's when I, you know, you need to take I need to take care of myself. My cup was already full and even a small drop could spill the whole thing. I could feel that and um there was a time when I had actually I had a blackout on my 38th birthday. I wanted to have whole pizza for myself.

[00:26:09]You know, I didn't want to share it with anyone. [laughter] I say I'm going to have it for myself.

[00:26:15]Ordered it and had it and I had a blackout. I just uh fainted and that's when I realized my night shift was not doing good on my body. And uh the transition happened then please don't wait for that time you know start taking care of yourself in these small small things when you feel tired when you get irritated irritated over small things that's when you know you you need to stop take the break and then recoil and get back yes um [clears throat] like I said even in some time back um your health is your priority and I think more than your physical health your mental health is your first trigger point and the day you feel that is all taking too much of a toll. Um I remember there were days when I would you know I I was heading the south of India for Kaya and later for Fab India and later for Ritukumar. So I had to travel a lot within the south of India and then for my corporate meetings I had to go to Delhi and Bombay and Kolkata and you know so there were times when I had to swap uh suitcases at the airport and take my next flight. So it when it took a toll I I said okay you know what I'm just going to take a break recoil before I get that get back there.

[00:27:37]There are days when you have very when you know you've expected a promotion or an increment or you've expected that a project will come out the way you intended it to be it it will disappoint you that the outcomes were totally against what you expected how do you deal with it can you do anything about it what I've realized now is I couldn't have done anything about it you know maybe uh the screaming and shouting and coming and showing that anger at home will not help. Leave it there. It's okay.

[00:28:15]Even if it were to, you know, you were to get a letter of warning or a letter of uh, you know, anything or it's it's just your own disappointment.

[00:28:26]Just leave it at at at at the office.

[00:28:30]come home fresh, sleep well, maybe take a day off, spend a little me time, you know, maybe um just go out shopping or maybe if if if today what I do is I just maybe take a day off and maybe just sleep, get up, read my Bible, spend some time with the Lord and worship a little bit and then just go out in the evening for a long walk. So that's how I deal with it now.

[00:28:56]But back then, yes, there were a lot of tantrums, you know. Uh, and especially when you know that you cannot come home and throw a tantrum because your husband's watching you and your kids are like looking up to you for something and you you're bottling it. That's even more bad. So, I think just drop it. You know, it's difficult. It's easier said than done, but then yes, I think my [clears throat] my learning over these years is I should have dropped certain things then and there. And yes, especially when I had to choose uh you know I was getting a promotion but then the promotion was in a different city. I had to go to Mumbai. I couldn't do that.

[00:29:34]I was so hurt. I was like I'm taking it.

[00:29:37]It it really affected me because all of all my colleagues who were with me went on to taking those promotions and now they are in much bigger positions.

[00:29:50]It really hurt. It felt bad. But then uh I think all those wounds, all those hurts will somewhere get you know um taken care of if your ultimate trust is in the Lord that you know these sacrifices were made for a genuine reason. And yeah a lot of single women are now working you know they're either separated you know um single parenting it is very difficult you know you don't have the luxury that you [snorts] know when two incomes are coming in you're you're more comfortable with your finances with your with bringing up your family your children but what does a single woman do I think that's where you know the church or the society should help and I I always encourage um a small group in the workplace that will help these kind of women and help them to come up um keeping in even though they're having these struggles and these setbacks in life. So I think one should hold on to another and >> yes and um I also wanted to um ask you about uh women who are married. Yes, we spoke about the both of you who are gifted with wonderful partners and single moms, but what about women who might have to face some silent struggles at home or in their families? How do you think they can deal with such invisible struggles which are not able to express either at work or at home?

[00:31:26]>> Invisible struggles. That's that's a very um nice way of putting a very sad thing rather.

[00:31:33]People go through so many struggles each one the woman as such and as you said invisible that which makes her hide anything women are very very used to it I think you know masking our feelings wherever it is in front of our children in front of the society we are so used to masking our feelings and the invisible struggles would be I feel at the basic level where it comes in the hierarchy of the family itself where we so used to having as a child you're used to having your father listen to make the decisions control make the decisions and then when it comes to the married life and it become it is it's your husband and how do we allow ourselves in my case my husband was my same age >> a few days just 22 days older than to me so it was a huge struggle for me to actually submit myself to him >> because when we were in college it was uh uh we were in NCC together and I was a higher rank actually but when in marriage that doesn't work in a Christian family that doesn't work and so that was a huge um you know where we have to remind ourselves God is there and is the initial person that we need to uh be under person and then yes under him we have our husband and if in cases when we have contradictory opinions about the decisions of the husband who is supposed to be you know the rock of the fam family then I I think it's the it's a choice again that we need to make that [snorts] where we need to step into the role if I'm if I'm okay saying that um to make the right decisions I think that's left to us to withhold the family at that time when we need to make the right choice and stand just not for ourselves but for the children and for the family that we made the sacrifice for and we step into that role and make the choices that we need to make, the decisions that we need to make.

[00:33:35]>> That's that's going to be >> Yeah. Just to give you an example, I had a I had a lady in my office who was going through divorce and [snorts] uh she didn't mention it for a very long time until it you know it showed up a little bit in her work >> and that's when I picked it up and you know when when colleagues were like no it's not like before she's you know these are the issues that are coming up.

[00:34:02]So I just one day we finished work and I took her out for a cup of coffee and I said no is there something changing like no just let me know [snorts] and when she narrated it was a very very sad you know situation that she was going through. It was it was multiple people trying to curb her career her career. Um you know there were there was slightly something to do with financials that had to come from her maternal side and um you know she was forced to you know give up a lot uh you know there was a lot of nagging and things like that [snorts] and there was some kind of a phys physical abuse as well. So with all this you know it it it was very difficult for her to contribute at the same level that was but does that make her any less? No she is still a potential woman. So then I had to take her give her a little lesser responsibilities add somebody to her team. give her a little bit of support for the next 3 to four months that she has to go through this tough situation and then you know uh uh and I I was sure she will bounce back which she eventually did.

[00:35:16]Uh so these invisible struggles you know I think women should find situ uh opportunities or find somebody to talk about it and yeah not trust everybody because not everybody's worthy of the trust especially in today's world you know trust is the you should it should be the rarest commodity in your uh basket >> but yes maybe you know find some, you know, even if it was to take a counseling, you know, uh, talk about it and and and the moment she spoke about all of it, she felt very relieved and [snorts] it helped her that okay, there's somebody else supporting me. So, yeah, you know, many girls resign because of marriage and you know, what are they going to do after marriage? Maybe just be at home, ma'am.

[00:36:10]you know I just need to take care of my family and well at that time I always leave them with a word saying that you know if ever you want to come back just give me a call you know I think that's where we have to show that we are there for their those invisible struggles >> I think I just want to interject at this moment and I know this is something that we're going to touch upon maybe a little bit later in in depth but it's really shining through in this moment And the beauty of having women who support women in the work space where you're able to lend a shoulder when you're in a position of power to be able to to afford support to women.

[00:36:52]If anyone is ever having second thoughts about being a woman and like being hesitant about moving yourself into the uncomfortable cuz it's uncomfortable, right, to be in the work space and to be vulnerable >> with women like the two of you and hopefully like us as well in the future >> pioneering that support. It's such it's becoming such a warm field for and warm welcoming field also for women to to come up and to be successful not just to do okay but to be successful. So I I just wanted to take a moment to say that that's really coming through like through your message and now also I want to lead it up with like you know it has taken a lot for the two of you to reach this point right and a lot of growth a lot of pushing and I know that the work space right now is a little bit more diverse and forward than it was [clears throat] maybe let's say 10 15 20 years ago right and one of the biggest things that in spite of all the advances that women still face today is this power struggle or this inequality especially in the context of gender uh where women feel we feel and to some extent to me me as well right even though that's not necessarily I should be feeling that or have been made to feel that I think just inherently society and stuff makes us feel like we need to be present ourselves as more meek or demure or less um outstanding than we naturally naturally are. And have you all had those experiences of um where gender has been something that you've had to combat or because you're a woman uh you've had to fight harder to push yourself forward all the time. [laughter] I think I answered it all the time.

[00:38:49]With all due respect to men and being married to a great man myself, uh, but at the workspace, you're not going to find always a man who will support you.

[00:39:01]>> Mhm.

[00:39:02]>> So, who then will support you.

[00:39:05]I think I would encourage every woman, support yourself.

[00:39:10]Keep yourself ahead.

[00:39:12]Do your study. Make sure you're very very well prepared before you go for a board meeting. Make sure that you are taking time to talk.

[00:39:24]Uh do not let your uh gossiping nature dilute your personality.

[00:39:31]>> Mhm. You know, it's always nice to sit with friends or a cup of coffee and chat and say this one did that, that one, but you don't realize that the other person, however close to you, is judging you and judging your conversation, your words, and that message somewhere is going to get carried for carry forward as your personality trait. So I I've learned it the hard way and I'm sharing what I'm sharing after a lot of falls and wounds and bruised knees and [laughter] bleeding.

[00:40:03]Now I I am on the top. I I'm my position is of a chief operating officer.

[00:40:12]I'm very alone on the top. But that's okay. Mhm.

[00:40:16]>> Um it's okay because I need to keep my position very stable and consistently performing.

[00:40:24]>> So if you are giving up a a corporate dinner night, you know, where there is >> that you know there's going to be a lot of fun. It's it's okay if you have to sacrifice that. I think that's the sacrifice you have to do to keep your nose high in in your >> and yes investing in your read a lot of books u read and understand the new trends that are coming up like uh today there's AI taking up how many women are actually investing in AI >> how many in women want to learn that this is you know why look at AI as a threat look at it as a as a as as a boon to your you know career especially when we are facing smart women like you who are coming into the work workforce. So we need to be able to stand tall and say hey listen you know what you can do this better by using this and then they look up to you. Mhm.

[00:41:22]>> So coming back to the question, it it is important to make those um uh you know uh very very uh strict statements about yourself, about who you are, how you will position yourself.

[00:41:42]Don't let people talk over what your word says. But is your word uh scientific and thought through? If it is, then stand on it.

[00:41:54]Um, maybe a little nasty advice, but yes, I still give it. I've been a woman who's not let even if I'm wrong, I've not let allowed men to step over my decision. And especially if there are times that men when they know that they can't break you intellectually, they'll try to break you morally or by making a sly comment or about your dressing or about your, you know, like there was once a guy who made a a comment on my curly hair, >> you know. I said, "Oh, you know, you're very disturbingly sitting in front of me." I said, "Then I think you should step out and drink a cup of hot coffee before you come in." So I think taking the if you take it lying down once >> Mhm.

[00:42:38]>> you know or sub surrender to those kind of comments.

[00:42:45]Forget that it'll become a normal thing.

[00:42:48]You yourself will start accepting it. So from day one never let a man tell you that you're wrong or don't be arrogant about it but know your position in the company. Talk when you have to talk.

[00:43:02]Mhm.

[00:43:02]>> But if you are not invited to talk, just stay back. There will be a time when God will make you shine. I'd like to take the story of Esther here. Esther was a small young little village girl, you know, being brought up by Morai. I'm sure Modi was not investing too much time in her life. But when he when she got the opportunity to be at the king's court, [snorts] you know, she invested in herself. She went there and stood for the entire Jewish nation.

[00:43:32]So there will be a time when you'll have to stand up for yourself and take a risk of going into the king's court without being summoned. And I think you should be you should be bold.

[00:43:43]>> Mhm.

[00:43:44]>> And you should rely and and I just like to mow with the stuff that she did before she went there. She fasted, she prayed and she asked for her entire nation to pray for her. So I think having a prayerful community, I have a small little women's group who prays for me and I pray for them. So we have a prayer community which I grow over the period of time and um I I make sure that before I go for a a very important interview or a or a board meeting or a management committee meeting or a or a or I'm going to take a very important decision. uh I take some time to rest myself in the presence of God and then help me take that decision. So if you're looking at job changes, take a day off, pray over it, look at all the offer letters in front of you and prayerfully choose. And I I'm sure God will have kept that right job for you and you'll have to prayerfully surrender to his will.

[00:44:45]>> Mhm. I think Jean, you've said it all [laughter] and you're the right person to say all this.

[00:44:54]In my my profession as such, you know, in as a counselor, I think it's more of a woman's kind of a, you know, where you see the woman figure there, the nurturing kind of a person for this job.

[00:45:05]So, so I haven't yet felt that. But in working in a law college, I I find it very comfortable there because our principal is a woman >> and she took her she in fact did her thesis a PhD thesis I think uh when she was uh just after she delivered her second child.

[00:45:23]>> Wow.

[00:45:24]>> And she came back to work I think in 1 month. [laughter] So you know I'm I'm working with those kind of people and it's so nice to see and I in fact now I even have a pregnant uh professor >> you know for every hour she has to go and uh puke and come back but she's back there she's back in class and to see that you know it I'm I'm really aruck by seeing the women there and advocates our professors are advocates and the way they are clear in their speech they are clear on what they want what they don't want Yes is yes. No is no. And it's it's I'm learning from them that [clears throat] I'm learning that staying in a law college.

[00:46:03]>> Now earlier how it was in being an editor in medical transcription night shift. No.

[00:46:08]>> Mhm.

[00:46:08]>> That was very bad because it was like a dog fight. You know it was like whoever grabs the files first you know you get to do it and the easy files the men will take. They'll be sitting and waiting and they take it away.

[00:46:19]>> [snorts] >> I would rather I would have gone to take care of my son probably put him for put him and give him feed him and then but I would have missed out on that and that's when the men used to come in that used to be very annoying irritating [snorts] and that's how that that profession worked so so uh Jean Jean had the great advice for everything and uh young women definitely that's what we are going to face there's no shying away from the fact [snorts] and our gender per se is a nurturing gender Where whereas the woman the the men on the other side is a protective gender you know that's how they are going to function that's how they are going to think and that's how we >> protecting their own interesting >> yeah their [laughter] ego also >> but we you know we we are comfortable when we share when we talk and then that's how you said the trust matters all these things definitely all these things are pearls you need to you you keep it with you and use it and definitely that is what we're going to face every profession I guess that's what you girls are going to face.

[00:47:19]>> I always tell sorry ma I always tell you can choose your husband but you can't choose your boss. [laughter] >> So [gasps] you know you you are just that that person is just thrown on you. So you learn to adjust, understand but yes uh it is a universal uh truth be it India or a foreign country um there is always a suppressing attitude to a woman's career and I think there are sometimes I've been very blessed to have a man as my boss and uh you know uh shine in my work and I've also been sometimes had a woman as a boss and I've said I think I'll do a better job when I am a woman boss.

[00:48:15]>> Mhm.

[00:48:16]>> But at the end of it like I said even in the past um you should understand who's your boss.

[00:48:23]Your ultimate boss is >> God >> the father in heaven. And if you are working for the Lord Jesus, I think and if he's by your side, the devil can come to kill, steal, and destroy. But when he's there, you can be sure your carrier is eternal.

[00:48:40]>> Firm foundation indeed. [laughter] Um I just want to get see because so truly and rightly the both of you spoke and it comes with so many different facets but one like um common thread that I heard in what both of you are saying is how you present yourself as a woman with confidence >> and with assertion. It doesn't mean you come in all aggressive but you be assertive of your worth and your value for yourself first before you put it out there because that reflects. Do you have any practical things that could help your perception of confidence and that self-worth for yourself and for others?

[00:49:20]For instance, let me give you uh maybe for an example, right? Um my mom and even my dad have always taught me to be um well-groomed in the way that I speak clearly, in the way that I present myself, groom myself. And those are things that I know have helped me feel confident about the things that I'm saying and putting out there because I feel confident in the way that I am. Is that something that you resonate with?

[00:49:48]Is there something that you would like to add over onto that? Uh is that a shared experience or maybe that's just me?

[00:49:56]No, I I totally agree with what your parents have invested in your life and that's the same thing my my grandmother and my mother invested in me too. And um being wellgroomed is very important because 80% of your judgment is done in the first 5 seconds of having a look at you.

[00:50:15]>> Mhm. So carrying yourself well and I'm I'm again like you know I give a lot of credit to my husband you know he's a extremely well-groomed um you know man you know crisp shirt and so he always ensures that I am that way at my workplace and I also encourage women when they come to work I said pay a little attention to your clothes to the way you carry yourself a light makeup a light uh you know uh a good language thinking before you talk, >> using vocabulary. That's why I encourage women to read whatever you get a newspaper, a magazine, you if even if you're able to add one word every day to your vocabulary and use it five times, I think it becomes a part of your uh diction. So you need to make these small investments. You might be a B, an MBBS or a big doctor, but if communication is compromised, you will never be able to succeed. Mhm.

[00:51:14]>> And without being a doctor, sometimes, you know, when I explain a doctor's prescription to the patient, it's like, "Madam, you said it so neatly and so nicely, you know, but I didn't get the same thing from the doctor or from the, you know, the other person." So your investing in your communication, I would encourage all women, you know, in invest in your communication skills, effective communication, assertive communication.

[00:51:40]I'll give you an example. There was a time when a my boss I was I was supposed to go to Hyderabad for a very big issue which was that I'm Andra and Telangana where were you know splitting and [snorts] he wanted me to you know uh actually go and do something in another city which is basically his job >> but uh by pushing me there he was just trying to you know u >> offload >> offload his work. So I had to you know write a very strong and a very assertive yet humbling mail saying that I think at this point of time since um this is a pressing political issue I'll have to be there to make revenue based decisions >> progressive decisions for the organization and decisions that will involve uh you know a a lot of outcomes in the future for the organization. So well I feel that this is the priority and that can come in next. I will definitely go and take care of that but once I've taken care of this. So being very assertive [snorts] sometimes men make comments on you like I said having a very assertive oneliner you know to kill it or nip it at the bud is very important.

[00:53:06]>> So that's assertive communication. And how did I learn it? It's only by reading books, reading the Bible. You know, it's so important. You see the way Esther spoke, the way um you know uh you know, the way Nathan spoke when he was reprimanding what David had done, you know, how Nathan put it forward, God's message in a very very crisp manner to David saying there's there is no forgiveness until you repent. So communication again Bible is a source a lot of other books written by lot of many good authors I'm not getting anybody in mind right now but then yes there are a lot of books available in the market which I think women should invest in.

[00:53:51]>> Mhm.

[00:53:51]>> I think um >> yes >> Jean I do have a follow-up question for you since we are talking about confidence in the corporate world. Um, what uh practical advice would you give to women who know they're putting in the work but are not getting recognized?

[00:54:07]They're not getting a raise and they don't know how to put it forward or all the projects are just being um passed down to somebody else or if your boss has already made up your mind that she's not going to be able to do it even if you constantly upskill yourself. So what are some practical um tips that women can do to to prove their work and at the same time convince the other side?

[00:54:34]>> Um so I will divide this question into two halves. One is the professional and uh professionally how you should handle it and religiously or prayerfully how you should handle it. First is uh the the scenario that you're talking about is something that all women face. You know if if it if it's your if you are submitting something and there are two other people submitting it it could be a man or a woman uh it there are times that yours gets you know shunned out. There is a little bit of prerequisites you know asking if if a project has been given to you ask a few intellectual questions look like you are invested more than others and that you are preparing for it before you come up with a final uh you know presentation >> show that you are show there's a this is a world of shusha right show you know there's a little bit of showing that you have to do a little a a little uh trailer that you have to run before you project your work. You know, tell your boss, you know, oh, you know, I've been working on it. Uh you know, from the day you mentioned it, you know, I would like to have a few initial conversations with you before I um I you know, come up with a final presentation. Show that you're more qualified to do it and you are further qualifying yourself to do it.

[00:56:01]Now, is this unwanted uh you know presentation? It is not you're actually asking for some wisdom from him and you are what you're doing is you are [clears throat] controlling it right from the day right from the beginning right you're trying to get his ideas so that you your work becomes easy and your work is more focused second is when you're presenting it always have a little bit of prefix [snorts] and suffix to what how you have worked on it again that's why I said communication is very important how you present yourself [snorts] uh and then always run through a little sly thing and understand what others are doing. It's always good to do a little homework there. But then yeah, you know, >> [snorts] >> uh these things matter. Now, if I have to how do you deal with it as a Christian woman, I think presenting it to the Lord, asking for his wisdom, you know, uh the the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom and knowledge. I think fearfully submitting it to the Lord and asking for him to give you and believe me I've had some awesome ideas that have come up um in my career like um just to give you a quick one um my this organization that I was asked to you know head they were shutting down many uh uh you know uh clinics before uh you know when I was joining they like they already made up their mind and then I said how do I actually position myself now because this is a very challenging situation that I've put through and I felt that they've put me there only for me to actually fail and to prove to the management that a woman a role this role given to a woman will only result in failure. So now where did this wisdom come from? Where did this discernment come from? It's only because the Lord wanted me to know it. You know, it's it's nothing else. I I have no other way to put it. So, the first thing I said is okay. I said, I see that you have decided to for close four of four branches out of which I vote only one branch to be closed.

[00:58:21]>> Mhm.

[00:58:21]>> And I am going to take these three branches and I'm going to make these corrections.

[00:58:26]Before I did that, I spoke to my boss and I took a a quick run. Why are we closing it? What is the expectation?

[00:58:34]What does the management want to do? If the management wanted to close it, what about the investment that they made? So they were like, "Oh my god, this lady is asking some valid question. There is some 2 crores that each of these branches have we've invested and now how are we going to justify to the investor, right?" So when I ask these questions even they said okay fine and I always tell them uh by writing an email you're moving the monkey from your head to another person's head. So I put it all on documents. [laughter] The monkey was on their head now. So what they did is they they called me to Mumbai. They asked me for I said I want to shut only this and I want to uh you know uh rework on these three and and I prayerfully moved on that part and the lord really gave me so much of wisdom and understanding. Uh I had to gain people's trust. I had to make some modifications, do some recruitment, relook at the policies, relook at the timing of the branches, um remove certain uh you know uh clutter, add in some organized approach to what was happening. So then you know these branches started performing and then you know my credibility was immediately from here went to there >> in less than 6 months of me being in the organization. So investing your time in certain you know in your job is very important. Don't go just in the morning get up you know just go to work and present yourself like I'm doing a 9 to 5 job. Invest yourself truly genuinely and be genuine because today the market can understand fake very well.

[01:00:11]>> So I think that that's my that's my take on it.

[01:00:16]>> [laughter] >> Uh Rava, I just want to get your perspective also here, right? Because especially being in the field of like counseling where you're nurturing people's minds, how do you kind of like do you see these as like in in like women especially have kind of like embedded these things into themselves and how do you like help them deal with that?

[01:00:38]>> Very good one. Actually very recently had a student coming up to me and saying I'm so angry with my father. uh he's just wanting to control me all the time and I just [clears throat] said I can't the way she said it was I telling that to her father in our culture it's like >> yeah [laughter] >> you know >> yeah and it it I then I had to talk to her obviously a lot of anger [snorts] but nonetheless in the corporate world you know you're all trained to say the same thing in a different way you know [laughter] >> 10% is just the words remaining is the tone, the body language, everything comes into play. So a can't saying so rudely can be said probably I would not be able to do it or you know could I do it this way could I do it that way that could be a better way of presenting the same >> can I even think about it things like those you know the way we talk I don't think we are learn taught to do that as we are young you know as I think our culture doesn't do that is it >> are we are we just you know um we're not that polished kind of a talk you know where you can actually say a no you don't have to say a yes all the time it can be a no but a no which which is your you can hear it rather you know friendly to the ear >> when a person of authority you're going to say something to a person of authority then how do you say it with respect but nonetheless let it be a no so that I think you know that that assertive training which is very much available everywhere if we can learn to do that you don't have to be a people pleaser >> you don't have to shake your head all the time to you know say be forced to say yes all the time >> you can say a no but nonetheless say it in a way that the authority can take it.

[01:02:20]>> That's so brilliant because I am a I can be a domat. Uh when people ask me can you do this, can you do this, can you do this, I'll just say yes.

[01:02:29]>> Um >> to the point I remember and bring it back to this thing of like you know teaching yourself like things that are not necessarily taught you. I remember I actually got a book that's titled the art of saying no so that [laughter] so that I can learn how to not um over overcommit to things that don't even make sense to me and that's so brilliant from the both of you right like asserting your boundaries learning to say no so that you're doing work that's meaningful and not work that's just laborious >> and uh just you know just to quickly.

[01:03:07]>> Men like to listen to a yes from >> Yes.

[01:03:10]>> in the in the beginning, you know, like for >> So start your no with the yes.

[01:03:14]>> Yes. And [laughter] >> yes, but >> yes, but yes, if I [laughter] >> So, uh speaking of assertiveness, [clears throat] um how do you think women in the workplace can handle certain uh inappropriate comments that are being passed their way or subtle sexualized um suggestions or hints that are being dropped by um in a very passive manner.

[01:03:42]But you know sometimes it keeps building if we start to ignore them. So how do you think women can handle such situations and uh try to come out of it and at the same time uh try to be uh bold and courageous in an indirect way and say hey you don't mess with me. How do you think um they can do this?

[01:04:01]>> I thought I thought that was [laughter] your 4K.

[01:04:05]Yeah to we we've reading a recent incident about you know TCS you know where it's been happening for a very long time uh sexualization of women at work has been a very very big issue right from you know early days um today there are committees like posh prevention of sexual harassment at work there is a you know HR grievance cell employee Grievian said, I think women should reach out at the very first instant of it. You're not only helping yourself, you're helping a lot of other women who are silently enduring those uh comments and uh uh you know u [clears throat] uh you know the the sexual statements that I made at them. And believe me there there was a time when this was very uh uh it was not very openly done. It would be like you know a boss just making a comment and then if you read deeply into between the lines you might understand that oh this is what it meant. But today men are actually making very open you know without the fear of law and the fear of all these organizations that are there and especially when there is another man governing something like this there's always a flaw in the system. So that's why Posh is very beautifully curated where it has four to five members from within the organization and an external member and posters are supposed to be put all over the organization. It is not only for the internal customers but it is also for the external customers.

[01:05:54]Maybe somebody is just coming in for a business and they are you know facing uh they they faced a sexual uh you know move or a touch uh or a comment or even the there there was there was a time when um uh this uh there was a proposal sent and uh this lady got a mail back from this guy saying that this proposal is extremely beautiful as beautiful as you have are there to present it. I would love to hear it over a glass of wine. You know, we can discuss it over a glass of wine. He and when he was questioned, he said, "She's a forward woman. She's a progressive woman. She's a woman of the uh you know, new gen, you know, can't she understand that I didn't mean I didn't call her alone. It was that her entire team would come." So, he knew how to slip out of it. But having made that very bold statement on black and white.

[01:06:51]>> So it's now becoming very bold and very crimson and that's where women have to be very very strong in the way they uh you know uh they guard their character and their personality at workplaces.

[01:07:08]If you are going to slide in some way then you have to accept it that you are going to be treated that way. But if you day one put up your personality and your character that when a man reads you he's like okay this woman is beautiful just to look at but nothing else is there will be no no other um compromises from her end they know how to read it you know like Amitab Bajan says in a movie a no is a no you know so day one keep your head high and say no [snorts] this might be a little too much for the younger generation with lot of newer clothing and styles and designs and coming and I'm from the fashion field as well. When you are going into work, just look at yourself in the mirror and say, are you, you know, carrying yourself in a modest way? Be modern, but be modest. You know, there's a time to dress, you know, in a very fun attire when you're on a holiday or a family gathering. I'm not trying to make any pass any judgments on the current style that you know young women dress but then I would this is something that I've learned and I would like to give it as advice take it or leave it is like be modern be classy be elegant but be modest in the way you dress to work and use these these forums that are there in corporates like posh grievance uh so that you are able to uh ensure your uh security and also stand for yourself and for others.

[01:08:43]In relation to this gene, yes, in the corporate field that happens, but at home, no. Are we able to train our children to to make that choice to to uh dress modestly? Nowadays, children are not ready nowadays or rather, you know, on a 80/20 principle. I say majority of the children, they're not ready to take any suggestions from the so-called what boomer generation or whatever. But nonetheless, uh there is an underlying fact of identity crisis. So many other things that are there where we have to somehow get it across to them that your attire definitely matters in the workspace not just your workspace but just like how we teach good touch bad touch we teach all those things are we educating our people our girls to to be ready for the corporate world you know that I think we have to do it at home yeah as mothers we have to do it uh we don't want to get trolled for this [laughter] of being conservative women. But then yes, having said that, uh like you said, it's very important for [snorts] uh us to give that education both in the formal education side and in at the home front.

[01:09:59]>> I wanted to ask uh since you were talking about being assertive, if let's say um yes, we were talking about TCS as an example, but what about women in small organizations?

[01:10:12]they would definitely have some fear that if I speak out. Uh let's say for example the person is your manager. He is undoubtedly more valuable to the organization than you are. The easiest solution is to get rid of you than to get rid of the manager. How would you balance that? How would you play that out? Before you answer, I'm going to quip in because I really uh I really agree with what she said. I once worked at an organization where there was this question of gray area, right? And sometimes um like you said they play it off as very innocent.

[01:10:46]>> I had recently joined the organization and it was one of the first organizations I'm working for. It's not as established. It's not been around for 10 20 years. It is a smaller organization with a little bit you know they're finding their footing as well.

[01:11:02]Yes corporate they're established but not as established. And I I was in the position where somebody not my manager but a senior on the team the I joined let's say on a wetness day and on a on the Saturday uh that I joined I received a call at 1:00 a.m.

[01:11:21]>> which is inappropriate but it fell in the gray area of like you know they could really easily play it off as like oh I accidentally dialed this person I didn't mean to call them and it was my first uh it being one of my first roles as a working woman.

[01:11:40]>> My first instinct was, "Oh my god, do I need to be present at 1:00 a.m.? Is that the expectation that I need to set for myself?" And it was that that was my first thought before. I was like, "Hey, no, that was inappropriate. I didn't like that and I don't know how to navigate this." So, it was this very gray area. So, I really like that uh Kenisha brought that up.

[01:12:01]Uh I can give you an example of how how I handled it. Um and it's for you to judge whether it's right or wrong. The first time I was stepping into healthcare, uh my uh my profile was selected by the top and and I'm talking about a very leading healthcare organization. I was through I was going to join you know it was May 7th and I was supposed to join. Um so I got a call from the HR and she said we missed one person interviewing you. So uh and we actually want didn't want him to interview you but then since it is something that is uh uh you know um necessary now mandatory we need need you to attend this interview. Don't tell him you're joining today but let it look like you're you just came in and you're just willing to join. So this is entire stage that was being uh I said I said I'll play along. So I went and he threw [clears throat] my uh you know profile on the table and he said you've selected a woman for this you know if you this I wouldn't say this is very it was gender you know it was like really being [clears throat] gender biased he said if I call you at 2 2 or 3 in the night and you don't pick your call and you are not here in in this place in less than half an hour the next day what you'll find on your mail is your termination Oh my goodness.

[01:13:29]>> Now I had resigned from my previous organization to join here. It served my notice period and I said if this is the guy I'm going to work for in in any discipline. I walked out and I said I don't want this job.

[01:13:43]I think [clears throat] uh even till date I I I don't regret it. But there are times I sit down and think did I make the right or the wrong decision?

[01:13:53]But it's again it's for the audience to decide. But I said if day one is like this to the extent that from the top they're asking me to stage a drama in front of this guy and day in and day out I have to work with the fear of gender bias or or sexual comments then you know I think this is not what the Lord has put. So immediately I felt that you know there was this um discomfort in my heart and I felt the Lord will not put me in a situation like this you know where having had such a beautiful career not qualified but handling you know DGCA entering into uh you know the DGCA office to present you know working with airlines working with international banks he wouldn't put me in in front of a sly guy like that.

[01:14:49]>> So I didn't take that offer and I walked out.

[01:14:52]>> Mhm.

[01:14:52]>> So I think sometimes you just have to as a Christian woman in the workplace, you have to put your faith in the Lord uh in so much that the situations around you the world around you should not shake that faith.

[01:15:07]>> Right? And I think also what's personally also helped me sometimes like in one of my previous organizations I've had this colleague just ask me hey like when are you getting married like first time it was fine but that question kept coming up again and again and I started feeling uncomfortable so the next time he asked me I just told myself I'm going to be honest with him and say hey >> I'm not comfortable with you asking my questions I have my boundaries I don't talk about my personal life at work >> like um the moment I said that I saw saw him getting uncomfortable, [laughter] right? So, I think sometimes the best thing to do is to just be upfront and say, "Hey, this is not okay with me."

[01:15:46]They make you feel uncomfortable. It's okay to make them feel uncomfortable with your assertive statement sometimes.

[01:15:53]>> And my to all women and especially Christian women, do not compromise on your character or your um you know, for a raise in your job or for a race.

[01:16:06]It's that raise is given by the Lord.

[01:16:10]Trust in the Lord for your for everything and lean not on your own understanding. Right?

[01:16:17]>> So if you are going to make those compromises, then you've let the devil take hold of your carrier. But if it is in the Lord's hand, it's going to be longlasting. Mhm.

[01:16:29]>> Speaking of um faith, how do you think uh Rava and Jean, how do you think as a woman you can um practice your faith at work every day in your day-to-day activities? Uh because it's not easy.

[01:16:43]See, it might be easier for me because I work in a church-based organization. It might not be so easier for Mela. So, how do you personally [laughter] >> for me also because I guess I think I come under that. I work for a Jesuit institution so it's okay for me to display my faith but nonetheless being a counselor I need to take a secular stand because if I uh exhibit my spirituality or my religion to uh the students then it would seem for the others who are not of the same faith it might seem that I'm fanatic to that partic to being a Christian and they would not be open or ready to share with me about their concerns so I cannot wear a rosary but nonetheless that is that I can I can have my rosary at church a different place at home but at my workplace though we have a cross there I can personally uh practice my faith but nonetheless exhibiting signs I am personally not comfortable because I would look at each soul who comes to me who enters that door the soul which is ready to open up and be ready to heal and work on themselves that is a huge step and I wouldn't like them to think that I'm I'm I'm going to judge them based on their religion. I wouldn't like that picture to come across to them. So I wouldn't I'm I I exhibit a very secular um um front in front of the students. But personally, yes u you know I take each student as a soul who comes to me and and the work I do is just not for the books. It's not for the records. It is it is very it is quality for me. It means a lot to me.

[01:18:24]>> Mhm.

[01:18:25]Um I [clears throat] would like to take uh you know u if you've seen the chosen you know it's it's the it's the Bible really coming alive and Jesus being a Jew himself he was accepted by a few Pharisees he was accepted by a few Romans he was accepted by even many Gentiles.

[01:18:49]>> Uh I think that and but Jesus was Jesus.

[01:18:53]He only looked up to his father and he prayed. I've been in Hindu organizations um and there's been prayers and pujas.

[01:19:04]I've been very u very clear in how I present myself. I'm there but I'm not participating. I'm respecting what you are doing but I am of a different faith and I will guard that. I've been very bold in saying no to certain things. And when I have to start something, I always start it with a prayer. Yes. Uh there are a lot of young women who feel it is it is um you know uh difficult to profess their faith. But I would say show boldly and loud loudly that you carry the cross on your forehead. And there is no shying away from that because what the Lord has done on the cross is for everybody and for you more. So many times I I even advise you know there younger lady women come to me and they talk about issues at home or with you know with jobs and I tell them can I pray for you?

[01:20:07]uh recently a colleague of m of mine said that she was she was uh she was um diagnosed with a certain you know disease and I said I just held her hand and said can I pray for you if you don't mind just just to say quick prayer and I got a message later after four five days saying that thanks for your prayers your prayers worked so I think to stand boldly for your faith in a world which challenges everything it'll challenge even if you don't you will still be challenged so why not stand on the rock and be challenged because you know you're not going to fall because you're standing on the rock u have I shied away from my faith uh from the day one of my career no I have been very clear on a Sunday morning if I don't pick your call I'm in the church >> and I am not I am not there for you to after I finish church I will pick your on a Friday evening I have church or um uh you know uh if you want me to be participating in a in a in a religious activity I will be there because I am a I'm belong to the top you know cad thing I cannot be missing there I will dress as per the religious thing I'll come but but I will be there at the back I will you know I I kept I keep praying you know for them.

[01:21:35]>> Mhm.

[01:21:36]>> And for what they are praying that God will grant it to them because the God who answers prayers is my God above all all else. He is the Lord of lords and the king of kings. So >> I pray for them for what they are praying for. I'm there but I will not participate.

[01:21:52]>> So that's been my stand from day one.

[01:21:55]Otherwise it mella I think it would been very challenging for me to just be a simple MSE graduate you know from a government college to come to this level. I think it's only because I stood on the hard rock which is Jesus Christ.

[01:22:10][laughter] I think uh it's safe to say that the both of us and I'm sure everyone out here who's heard all that you have the both of you have had to say is undoubtedly impressed and inspired. I know I am. Um, and just to just to tie it all in together and maybe to to keep it a little light, if there's one piece of advice that you would tell yourself from 20 or so years ago when you were starting out, what would that be?

[01:22:43][laughter] >> I know it's a loaded question. It's not easy. But >> if it's one thing, what would you say?

[01:22:50]That was a lovely way of putting it actually you know if if I had to tell myself you know 20 years back then I I'm I'm really reminded of this word Elroy >> a god who sees >> you know he's he's a god who sees me from the in my dark place when I'm alone when I'm happy in my peaks in my in my deepest place he is there he is there with me and he sees it not that it is anything that is done behind his back.

[01:23:21]My Lord sees everything that is happening to me. Whatever I went through in life, my children when I did it alone, everything, you know, he saw everything. And I I I just want to tell myself that 20 was like, you know, he's seeing you. He has you, girl. Don't worry. [laughter] >> You're going to get out.

[01:23:39]>> His hand is there for you.

[01:23:41]>> The Lord who fed the birds of the air will feed you.

[01:23:44]>> He's there. It's it's it's not the basic needs, you know. It's just the it's that it's that inside you. you have so much of things to do and you're not able to do and I really didn't know how this opportunity came for me >> working at St. Joseph I just finished my term in you know being the parish council secretary in church and I was very you know I was so busy that time and then not doing anything I was very low and I really thank God I don't know from out of the blue this opportunity came I knew he's a god who sees >> and the god who provides >> and provides and when we present ourselves to others we don't have to put this mask >> you know he is seeing you he knows you he sees you as you are. So, present yourself. Be true to yourself first.

[01:24:30]True to yourself before you tr before you do anything for anyone else, your family, your husband or any society or anybody. Just be true to yourself. Which I I so much want to tell so many other women. You know, you first be true to yourself. You know, you don't have to put on a mask for anybody for anybody's sake to prove anything. You just be yourself. You have everything in you God has given you. [laughter] And you are strong in your weaknesses.

[01:24:56]We are strong in our weaknesses. We need to know who we are. I can't spy. My daughter is is is a basketball player and she has her body physique is is not like Aishwarai. You know, I say that you're made for a purpose. You have the physique to play. Awar is not going to do that. You know, not going to be able to play the basketball that she plays or be the sports woman that she is. She can get [clears throat] up her resilience everything. You know I say so each one is made so beautifully and God has put such beautiful things into each one of us. I wish I knew this 20 years back and I thank God for this realization that I realization that I have now. I thank God for that.

[01:25:35]>> How wonderful. [laughter] >> Yeah. I think my journey has been from a reckless Martha to a resting Mary. [laughter] I think uh I used to get up with anxieties, fears, uh you know [snorts] uh fatigue but I think the Lord has journeyied with me. I have been unfaithful but he's been a faithful God. He's journeyied with me through and through uh in in in times when I might have lost faith or would have you know stumbled a little but he always held me. So I think it's it is to him that all glory and all honor should go and yes definitely a family that supports and career opportunities that came my way where and to all the people whom I worked with the bosses everybody you know it it it's just the lord's curation and I think again I would like to just say this one uh statement there is a time when you'll be the Mara you'll be like restless you'll be you you will not understand and you'll be trying to cater to so many different needs if you are able to take a break from there and rest at the feet of Jesus like Mary did I think you'll be a more organized Martha [laughter] organized Martha so >> thank you so much for those calls that was truly truly truly wonderful and thank you to >> thank you so Thank you for Kenisha and I I think we both feel really happy and blessed to be here and I'm sure our viewers do as well.

[01:27:20]>> Thank you.

[01:27:21]>> Thank you so much Cafe >> and for having me and helping me, >> you know, go through my own journey. I think this has been enlightening to meet as well.

[01:27:34]>> Yeah, I didn't realize I could I had so many pearls in my life, you know.

[01:27:38][laughter] >> Thank you. Thank you for that. anytime.

[01:27:42]I'm sure that with all of those pearls, uh, we and all those who are watching will continue to stay rooted in faith and to rise in the purpose that God has for each one of us. This has been another episode of the heart cafe. Thank you so much for tuning in. Do not forget to like, share, and subscribe to the Holy Redeemer YouTube channel for more such content and even more. Cheers to the Hot Rock Cafe and to women everywhere.

[01:28:09]Thank you. This [music] heat.