Why the Future of the Reds could soon change | Riverfront Territory

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]Hey Mason, what do you got planned for next February, March, maybe April, May, June? Anything?

[00:00:07]>> Typically, it's baseball, Trent, but uh I don't know if I want to lock anything in. How about you?

[00:00:14]>> Yeah, I I feel actually pretty comfortable making uh non-refundable plans for uh vacation plans for this for February 2022 because I know I won't be in Goodyear, Arizona. So that's how things are looking today with uh a lot of the stuff coming out for the uh upcoming collective bargaining agreement uh discussions between the we have uh the first proposals from the Major League Baseball Players Association and Major League Baseball. So with that happy stuff, let's uh let's get rolling here on uh Riverfront Territory, part of the Foul Territory Network.

[00:00:49]>> Let's do it.

[00:00:58]Hello, welcome to Riverfront Territory, part of the Foul Territory Network. As I just said, uh I am Cat Trent Rose Cray of the Athletic and he is Mason Eastep of Red's Daily together with our friend Danny Graves who is out on assignment.

[00:01:11]Big big week for college baseball, big couple of weeks for college baseball where uh Danny does a lot of work. So, he won't be with us. But for to get ready for Danny's eventual return, hit the subscribe button below. Uh that way you get the the first uh notices all those ways. You help us out win when uh you get to see the babyfaced assassin when he returns.

[00:01:35]>> Comment that you missed it.

[00:01:36]>> Um >> that's that's something I'm looking forward to is Danny being back. What I'm not looking forward to is labor talk.

[00:01:45]Um, and there's going to be plenty of it here in the next, well, at least till next March at the best case scenario.

[00:01:56]>> And there's already been a lot going on in the past 24 hours.

[00:02:02]>> Yeah. You know, and and we've got our first kind of salvos. Um, the the first um proposal by the Major League Baseball Players Association came out on Wednesday. than the counter by the owners on Thursday. And if you want some good news, we didn't get that kind of back and forth proposal. We didn't get the owner's response to the players first uh um proposal during the last cycle. That would have been 2020 um one. Was that 2021? Yeah, it was 2021 going into the 2022 season. Uh five years ago. So, that is the very little bit of optimism I can figure out from what we what we've heard in the last day or so. Um, how how are you feeling about all this, Mason?

[00:02:58]>> Yeah, I I I agree that there's dialogue.

[00:03:01]there's dialogue and I mean at least they're both putting their you know they're putting it out there where they're at and um you know it's public and um nothing's really a surprise really um these are things that have been discussed many times over many years over you know many different um people in those positions and um I I think uh in a lot of ways you know other sports have been ahead or behind and I don't know there's a lot to unpack here Trent So, um, let's go ahead and dive right in. So, the last 36 hours on, um, on Wednesday, as you mentioned, the MLB Players Association submitted their proposal. Uh, and what they, what they had put in there is, um, that they're looking for the minimum age of free agency. Uh I'm sorry the minimum age the if you're age 30 then you are granted >> and you have five years of service time >> and five years of service time yeah you're granted free agency.

[00:04:05]>> So so really that's not I mean that does not seem like that that that was actually less aggressive than I expected from from the union the players association. Um, I expected them to be searching a lot quicker free agency and and and maybe uh this does I think this is to me one of the more rational things because it's after six years right now, right? But if a guy is 30, you know what? Yeah, you do it a little later because he's a late bloomer. he's probably not gonna have as much time to um to to really recoup that uh the money in free agency because he is older. Um you will see longer shorter terms deals on that next part. I I think that's perfectly reasonable. Um and it's it's one of those things that if I'm the league, I go, "Oh, hey, Les, let's go. I think this is cool. I can live with this. You can live with this." And that's hopefully one of those things.

[00:05:08]And that was the one that seemed most likely to be both sides go, "Okay, we can live with this >> from this uh union um side."

[00:05:17]>> One of the tactics in negotiation or techniques that people always recommend is is get the agreement going. get the get the ball rolling on both sides saying yeah start on the middle ground on the things that you can like you said both agree to and uh hopefully create some momentum which is going to be needed uh because uh yeah there there's other aspects that the players union put out there um they the the big one is um is this the salary cap salary floor is everybody's talking about um they want a salary floor they want $150 million salary floor um or a tax on teams that don't spend it. Um so that's the big ask. Um and then there's the elephant in the room. Um of course the uh salary cap. Um a couple other changes that the union's asking for is a minimum salary going from uh $780,000 to 1.5 million. Um this is nearly double. This is uh requested uh by 2027.

[00:06:18]Um they're looking for the luxury tax ceiling to go up. Um this is the soft cap as people have called it uh from two from 244 million to 300 million. Um they're also looking for uh super two arbitration uh for more players to be eligible. So from about 22% to 44%. Um they're looking for the pre-arbitration bonus pool to go from 50 million to $180 million. So, um, Trent, uh, yeah, a lot going on even just from the players, uh, union. Um, what else do you, what else comes to mind when when you take a look at what they're putting out there?

[00:07:00]>> Honestly, like, and and again, this is going to be me and my perspective and of the two people on this call, one person has paid people and one has been paid.

[00:07:10]So, we will have different little things in our in our lifetime. Um, I I it didn't seem like I don't know like none of the I I felt like the players association their their proposal was real like I don't know about realistic but I didn't just see it it wasn't as extreme as I expected and I think maybe that's a good sign cuz or maybe that's me just being you know on this one side and and not worried about if the owners can buy new yachts. But that's me. I'm But my bias.

[00:07:48]>> Yeah.

[00:07:48]>> So, yeah. So, it didn't sound that bad to me, but um I know it sounded terrible to um people who Yeah. Um to to to the owners.

[00:08:00]>> Yeah. 30 groups in this >> because ultimately this isn't Major League Baseball. This isn't the headquarters in New York. And I think this is one thing we have to remember.

[00:08:08]This is not >> Rob Manfred is the face of all this, but he's not the designer. It's he has bosses >> and there are 30 guys who are his bosses. And to me, the fight inside of that is more interesting and than anything because as we'll see coming up, like some of the things that the owners proposed, I just I I I have a hard time seeing it come to pass because not because the players aren't into it, because the owners aren't into it. And that's controlling all of the television money and centralizing it. Um which is you know that is probably the biggest argument against a salary cap is that hey listen not everybody is the same. You know what you have on one side here is um well that's the owner's c the owner's counter like the owners are fighting for socialism and the workers are fighting for >> free market >> um you know capitalism right like and and and that's the bottom line and it's because those at the top the owners um want to maximize their profits which is so do the players they want to maximize their profits but the the problem for me is you know what nobody's forcing you to sign these huge contracts. Um be better.

[00:09:40]Like aren't the New York Mets, they they spent the second most. They've spent all this money. Aren't they supposed to be the best team in baseball by now? Aren't they you know I know everybody got and again I can understand the reasons but like you know Steve Cohen promised everybody a championship in New York and have we seen that? and the New York fans were pretty upset about it. But like remember this happens everywhere. Um if if you want well and and and this is the thing these are traditionally these three teams you know what these three teams have in common for the last 25ish years they've been three of the most of the smartest most disciplined teams out there. And the difference is they have let guys go in order to maximize not just their profits and maybe sometimes to a detriment to that but to the to winning. Um now the A's have been the last 10 years or so have been a cluster but before that I mean it was the A's that we we learned about Moneyball.

[00:10:47]>> For our audio listeners have just been >> we've got the uh Rays athletics and guardians on screen. Um it shows that the uh Rays are first in the AL East with an $87 million u payroll uh for players. They've got the athletics uh first in the AL West, Guardians first in the AL Central, Guardians at 108 million. Uh athletics at a uh quite a different number, 55 million. But um sorry, Trent. Yeah, go ahead.

[00:11:13]>> Yeah. So everybody in the in the American League, you have your so-called small market teams leading each one. Um, and that's because they're smart. You know, the raise, the discourse I've seen over the last day is like, "Oh my god, they're hitting the ball. That goes against all what you Moneyball people say." Like, no, that's what Moneyball was. It was finding what was undervalued. And contact rate has been undervalued, so they're moving towards that. The hitting the ball on the ground has been undervalued, so they're going towards that. And that doesn't mean that that's the best strategy. It just means it is the way to use your resources differently and not pay for what everybody else is paying for. And so I I think that's fascinating.

[00:11:59]And you know, the point of the Moneyball movie isn't on base over everything.

[00:12:05]It's like, no, nobody was paying for that. Now they're going to get those guys and build a team together. That's what the Rays do. The Rays are smarter than anybody else. Um, the Guardians develop pitching like nobody else. Um, and they've kept some of the core players around. Um, so I I think that's a lot of what you're seeing is these smart teams will continue to be smart and they'll take a while to figure it out in whatever system, but a salary cap and a salary floor isn't going to make everybody all of a sudden the greatest teams ever.

[00:12:39]I mean that I you know I keep missing how the Bengals have won the Super Bowl every two years. Um it's because that's in a cap league, right? Um you have you know the Okay, let's stick with Cincinnati teams or former Cincinnati teams. The Sacramento Kings. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:56]>> They're always winning because that's a that's a cap league and small market.

[00:13:00]They are >> a-ok. Okay.

[00:13:03]Cap has made them good. So when you look at some of the top teams, the perennial, you know, um almost dynasty level, not necessarily winning every year, but at that elite level, um you look at like right now, you've got the the Ravens with Lamar. Um you know, you've got uh Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. You've got Kansas City with Momes, the most recent dynasty in the NFL. So, um, if there is an argument, I think to be said with that comparison, it's that, um, yes, maybe the Bengals haven't been winning, but we certainly have been much more relevant, um, on a league scale than, um, >> than the Reds have been.

[00:13:43]Um, there's a lot of factors. There's a lot of factors.

[00:13:46]>> I mean, they went to the Super Bowl, but that's about it. Um, I would say, you know, every year you get I don't It's always Armageddon around here in the 20ome years I've been here. One team's going to be never going to win again and then the other team's never going to lose again and ultimately neither team has won. However, what I would say to that is football football and basketball these the these so-called um cap leagues success is different. It in football and the NFL you have to have a quarterback.

[00:14:16]If you have a franchise quarterback, >> wow, >> you're going to you're you're you're going to be good. That's why the Bengals are good because they got Joe Burrow.

[00:14:25]They stunk and they got good in the right year. Um, and got Joe Burrow and they made that choice. There were people who were saying Justin Herbert was been a good quarterback. Um, and so Joe Burrow, but no, they stuck with Joe Burrow. You then have to make other good decisions. But once you get that guy, that guy now figuring out who that guy is at quarterback position. I mean, we've seen from one's like Joe Burrow to Tom Brady, everything in between. You guys, you know, I I'm guessing it was a good choice for the or the Chiefs are happy that the Bengals took John Ross instead of Patrick Mahomes. Um, so these are the things that happen, but there it's quarterback in the NBA.

[00:15:10]The Cleveland Cavaliers, they win when they had LeBron James.

[00:15:14]>> Yeah, >> one guy can do that.

[00:15:16]>> Yeah.

[00:15:16]>> In Major League Baseball, in the sport of baseball, not just Major League Baseball, but any level of baseball, >> a star doesn't guarantee you anything.

[00:15:26]>> Two two >> you buy a ticket and that guy can go 0 for four or whatever and it just happens. It's not unusual. You can have perhaps two of the top 10 players of all time in baseball on the same team over a period of time like the Los Angeles Angels, >> the biggest market >> and win jack squat >> being in a big market in the end. Like I understand owners want to get their uh guaranteed revenue. That doesn't guarantee anything. So speaking of guaranteed revenue, Mason, how about we hit a commercial?

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[00:17:10]>> Thank you C Trent for talking baseball and getting us into the nitty-gritty. Um we always appreciate your uh perspective and experience. Um so um look this has been it's it's it's it's interesting.

[00:17:23]There's a lot lot going on. Um the owners again put out what they're looking for a centralized pulled shared equally uh media revenue for the local media. They're looking for everything to begin in the 2027 season. The cap growth to be tied to revenue. So as the revenue rises, so does um the cap. And they are suggesting a 50-50 split with players and owners. In addition to the hard cap, they want a $245 million $245.3 million hard cap salary cap on team payroll. That's the big one. That's the one that it's actually not new. This is not this is not a new thing the owners have uh proposed in. In fact, the first time they proposed a an official cap was in 1990. This was their first attempt.

[00:18:15]It was rejected and it caused a lockout.

[00:18:17]Um, it was a 32-day lockout. Ultimately, it was dropped and the season was saved.

[00:18:22]Um, it was then brought up four years later. This was the big one. This was a 232day strike. It took a huge huge amount of momentum out of the game and it took some time to recover. It took the Supreme Court to bring it back.

[00:18:37]It it canceled the World Series, uh, believe it or not. So, this was the the major thing that was in discussion was the salary cap. And by this time um the other leagues and the NBA, the NFL, they had instituted it. The NHL would be the last team to I'm sorry, the last league to institute a hard salary cap, which they did in the mid200s. So here we are in 2026. Baseball, of course, the players make more than any other league when it comes to the top the top players. As far as the overall history, this has been going on for some time.

[00:19:08]The 70s resulted after three different rounds of negotiations. It resulted in free agency. The free agency era began in 77 and um the game has really never been the same since. Uh I know the Reds lost Pete Rose. He was very quick to jump ship to the highest bidder at the time uh the Philadelphia Phillies joining uh Mike Schmidt. Actually Joe Morgan and Tony Perez would end up joining him over there. Very odd. But I know you don't like to make predictions or projections. Um so I'm not going to ask >> I can't see any >> right. But I will say this. I cannot see any way, shape, or form that the Major League Baseball Players Association will accept a cap.

[00:19:49]>> I I just I don't see it.

[00:19:51]>> I don't see why they should.

[00:19:53]>> Right. I don't see why they would. I don't see why they should. I just I know you look at history that is a non-starter. And every oper like at some point, every time the owners come and they start with a cap, players going to be like, "Nope, no, we're good. We're not going to do that.

[00:20:16]I don't care about anything else you say because it is a non-starter." Um, I just don't see that changing and the players have built up a quote unquote war chest.

[00:20:30]uh and as they should have they're you know they will have that there and these guys know they know what's coming and they're going to fight for it and I just don't you know it is none of it has ever a salary cap has never helped the players and I don't know that it's ever helped the fans other than you know it's one less thing to argue about and I say this as someone who has covered the Cincinnati Reds for the last 20 plus years who grew up a Kansas City Royals fan. Um, all my life has been around most most of my attention has been around small market small market teams.

[00:21:13]Um, you know the what number 29 market is San Diego and they just >> they are going to be sold for the most ever like break it and for everyone who's crying poor. Well, >> yeah, >> somebody just bought the Padres's for 3.9 million, right?

[00:21:29]>> You can make your money back. And and like you've seen other teams go up for sale and not be sold. And that's not because nobody wanted it. It's because nobody met the price that they were expecting.

[00:21:39]>> And does that change?

[00:21:43]I would say to owners, and again, I'm no economist. Um, trust me, there are plenty of people who can tell you that.

[00:21:50]But I don't see how the strides, the great strides that have been taken over the last five years. And hey, let's give Rob Manford a lot of credit for a lot of these.

[00:22:07]>> Truly, >> the pitch clock seems to have worked out fantastically. The it's it is like they said, pace of game, not time of game.

[00:22:15]And I I think if you go back and watch a non- pitch clock game at any level, you will notice the huge difference.

[00:22:22]>> Um you get used to it what it is now.

[00:22:24]And there have been growing pains both physically and metaphorically. Um we have had review replay review has gotten much better, much more consistent um as teams have gotten used to it on the field. I think we're seeing that with ABS. ABS has become a great um success for the fan experience.

[00:22:48]>> I don't hear calls for robo rule changes.

[00:22:52]>> Um ABS, >> right? I I honestly >> Yeah, >> I will tell you what ABS has done for me. It's showed me how good the current umpires are.

[00:23:01]>> Because how many of those are you going, "Oh, that's not even close." And then you see the ABS and you're like, "Whoa."

[00:23:07]>> Yeah, >> man. Like, yeah, I I there there are a couple that like on the big screen when they show that I'm still like, oh, did it hit? Did it hit? Right.

[00:23:15]>> And this guy's having to do that live.

[00:23:17]So, like >> for me, ABS has shown me how good the umpires are, not how bad. Um, but I'm known as an eternal optimist, I guess.

[00:23:27]Um, so there's that.

[00:23:29]>> Yeah. No, it the changes have been great. Um, you you mentioned obviously your background as a Royals fan. Bobby Wit is someone that comes to mind as representing how things were done just as recently as two years ago. He signed he signed a big old contract 11 years, $288 million. You know, it locked him up through his prime years and and and beyond the arbitration years and, you know, way into his into his free agency until he's 34. So, as as Reds fans on the Reds fan side of things, you know, how does all this potentially affect the Cincinnati Reds? Well, Ellie de la Cruz is somebody who you Jeff Passan, who helped break some of these uh some of this news, said that Ellie may be the next domino. U he may be the next $500 million man. This is all speculation.

[00:24:12]Anything can happen. But um you've got contracts that have been signed recently. Vlad Guerrero Jr. Um a $500 million behemoth. Of course, the the famous Otani $700 million contract with seemingly, you know, I don't even know a billion deferred. Who knows? I don't remember off the top of my head, but the deferring was was an interesting wrinkle. But Juan Stoodto uh $765 million in 2024. I mean, these are just astronomical numbers. But this is something that is top of mind because Ellie de la Cruz is one of these potential guys. And he was offered he was offered by the Reds more than they have offered to any player in the history of the franchise. This is news broken by cat Trent Rose Crayons. He's got he's got the notorious agents. That was that was a couple months ago. It's not new, by the way. So, it was it was I published it, so like I don't Yeah, but yes, continue. Sorry, I'm not I don't want to take more credit than I deserve.

[00:25:07]>> It was definitely noteworthy. And Ellie de la Cruz enters his arbitration in 2027. He's going to be eligible for free agency 2029. So, this is typically where the team can offer more than he would have received in arbitration to help offset what he can make in free agency.

[00:25:25]And it just kind of levels it off a little bit. And for a team like the Reds, you can look at Hunter Green. The Hunter Green contract is a great example. We got it done pretty early and it bought through I think what a couple seasons of of free agency through his arbitration for sure. Something like that would have been of course great with Ellie, but he's got so much potential. So Ellie's contract negotiations are partially why this is so relevant for Reds fans, but also there's a there's another player on the Reds, Trent, that we've been hearing a lot of calls for contract extensions. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. We don't know what's being offered or discussed or if things are being discussed, but South Stewart is somebody who other teams like the Brewers locking guys up and the Pirates before they even play a major league game. South Stewart comes out through the gate so hot would seemingly be a candidate. And when you look at the years uh coming up for him that are relevant pre- AARB in 20 this season through 2028 29 through 31 he'll be eligible for arbitration and free agency in um 2032.

[00:26:26]So with all that being said, Trent, where do you think they are with with these negotiations? Is this something they're waiting just to wait and see?

[00:26:37]Are they hopeful one side or the other?

[00:26:39]Oh, no. They've they've reached out like there's there's no question they've reached out and said, "Hey, would you guys be interested? There's all this stuff." I mean, I think I've talked about that and I believe I've it's been reported. uh it takes you know both sides want going to want to have to do it and there is so much uncertainty that you know I think some guys are jumping at it and some aren't you know and you talk about LA de la Cruz is a client of Scott Boris who is you know the the the the very top of that profession and he has done he has given a lot of good advice to a lot of players and made a lot of people a lot of money. Um if if if Scott Boris called and said, "Hey, Trent, um I'd love to um represent you." I would be signing that in a heartbeat because his track record says people get paid. Now, um you know, Sal Stewart's guy is no sloucher. Uh that's Dan Lozano uh who you know was the agent for another Red's first baseman who signed uh two extensions before he reached free agency and that would be one Joey Evado. So like I just don't see it as oh woe is us. It's more like hey there's nobody knows what it's going to look like. Nobody knows what the landscape is going to look like after this year. Um, I don't know that either side is rushing to be tied to something long-term towards rules and regulations that they just don't know what are they're going to be. So that's kind of where I feel that's why I mean I think a lot of things were done before this season. uh some of those locked up extensions because players like may not get any better than this and whatever and owners may you know the management side was kind of saying the same thing and at this point I think there's even more uncertainty than there was then and um I don't know that I expect to see much of any more of that uh between now and the end of the season especially when there's going to be a lockout almost assuredly on what December 2nd so Yeah.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah. The Yeah, that's what it comes down to. It's it's uncertainty, risk tolerance, and that that goes to both sides. And like you said, basically, you know, they have to come to the middle.

[00:29:00]Um it's not one way or the other. So, um but something that uh I'm going to have to edit that part.

[00:29:09]>> Oh, you you're trying to get you're trying to get to a uh transition. You're like, but you know what is certain, Mason? There it is.

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[00:29:39]>> Without a doubt. And I'm looking for some of the best seats. I'm looking for that green dot. When I get that, it's a simple plug it in, use your hands, go right on your screen, your phone, whatever platform you can get it on. And it's so simple. They make it so easy for you to do. Even my son can do it. If I ask him, "Hey, Blakester, let's go, man.

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[00:30:06]>> Yeah. And the code for you, you should know it. It's territory 10. It just gets you 10% off your next set of tickets at CQE. 10% off any tickets with promo code territory10. Make sure you click the link in the description, download the app, then the code is automatically added to your account so you can use it later. Uh Trent, hey, listen. I really appreciate your time and um going into detail on your perspective with everything because I really think you have a really uh a unique one being in the clubhouse every day, being around the game as much as you have been. So um this will be very exciting. We want to just report the facts as they come in and keep you guys informed. Uh so with that being said, there are some dates that our fans are and subscribers are going to want to pay attention to. We've got negotiations going on. Trent, in your experience, you've we've both been through a couple of these now. Do you think something's going to get done early or are some of these dates going to be pushed to the limit in the 11th hour?

[00:30:57]>> I I can't imagine anything not going to the 11th hour and beyond. I would be shocked if there's not a lockout. Um, I would be shocked if we had to winter meetings. Remember, like remember what a lockout means, too. They can't do anything with players and the owners.

[00:31:12]Like, if you look at reds.com or brewers.com or whatever, they cannot on those sites write about current players because of the tie-in with Major League Baseball. You saw that last year or last time in 2020 um two and 20, late 21, 2022. Um, you know, you can't have Redsfest.

[00:31:35]You can't have the winter meetings. Um, all those, no Red's caravan, none of the offseason stuff they do. Um, because they can't be tied together. Now, you may go out and try to find some alumni or something, but a lot of those guys fought hard for what the players are fighting for now and might just say, "Hey, uh, no thank you." Um, so I just remember this off seasonason is going to be long and they're going to be missing some stuff. So >> the earliest I can see anything happening is on the same schedule as last time. And that's best case scenario, early mid to mid-March is when spring training starts. And a truncated spring training, you know, nobody I wouldn't buy spring training tickets or plan a spring training trip now um because God knows if they're going to have any. if you're going to do, you know, it could go so long that you would have to go into something like uh the 2020 season where you had camps here in in town. Um and to try to justify it, I who knows there's so much that's on the table and so much unknown that all I know is I don't expect anything to be done quickly or easily or painlessly.

[00:32:50]>> I think it said we have December 1st uh is when the current agreement expires.

[00:32:54]December 2nd is when the lockout, if it occurs or when it occurs, that's when it will begin. So, um, just some dates to keep in mind. Uh, like I said, we will be here to keep you guys updated. Trent, I appreciate you again, my friend. Uh, >> hey, hey, Mason, I got a question for you.

[00:33:13]>> Oh, yeah. What's up?

[00:33:14]>> How can anybody who's made it this far stay updated from us?

[00:33:20]>> That's a great question. The best way to stay updated by far is to is to hit subscribe. Hit subscribe and that helps us a lot. Um that helps us grow a lot.

[00:33:29]We've got a lot of goals and um a lot of exciting things in the works for you guys. We need to see that number going up and you have so far. So um I've been stopped a couple times, Trent, which has been super cool. People saying, "Hey, I love the podcast. I've told my mom. I've told my grandma." Um and that was my sister. So uh >> Oh, good. It wasn't the police.

[00:33:48]>> Yeah. But uh yeah no like honestly that helps so much way more than you know and um it's it's been a lot of fun so far and there's a lot of more fun to come.

[00:33:57]So hit subscribe, let your friends and family know and be sure to check us out next time. We've got a fun episode coming up. I'm Mason with Reds Daily Crant Rose Crants with the Athletic.

[00:34:08]Together we are the Riverfront Territory podcast part of the Foul Territory Network. I hope to see you guys next time.