We Left Scientology & Wrote the Truth About David Miscavige

[00:00:01]Claudio and Renata Lugli have written a new book about David Miscavige. It's an unauthorized biography. Claudio and Renata were Sea Org members and Scientologists in the Church of Scientology for many years, but they left 15 years ago. Claudio and Renata became famous clothing designers in Italy and they designed clothing not just for the public but also personal stylists for David Miscavige and his wife Shelly for many years. They also designed the uniforms that they used in the Scientology organizations.

[00:00:37]They've come out with a new book that they've written, David Miscavige, the Scientology leader in the shadow. The book is available on amazon.com in Italian, English, and soon German.

[00:00:50]But Claudio is here today to talk about the book.

[00:00:54]And we hope you enjoy this interview. I think you're going to find it very, very interesting.

[00:01:01]>> [music] [music] [music] >> Hello everybody. Welcome back to our channel, Scientology peeling the onion.

[00:01:24]My name is Mark Fisher and I've got a special guest here today all the way from Italy.

[00:01:29]It's Claudio Lugli.

[00:01:31]He's written a new book about David Miscavige with his wife Renata and it's David Miscavige, the Scientology leader in the shadow. And they've also written another book as well and we're going to talk to him about this book as well as his life in Scientology and now outside of Scientology. Uh he was went all the way up to OT 8 before he finally uh they finally left the organized church uh don't know about 15 years ago and then now since then he's been out in the independent field and he's doing auditing along with his wife. He was a designer, clothing designer in Italy and uh became very famous doing that as well. He was a stylist along with his wife for David and Shelly Miscavige when they were still were in Scientology. And so he's got personal stories in the book and we're going to talk about that. So everybody without further ado let me introduce you to Claudio Lugli.

[00:02:27]Hi Claudio, how are you doing?

[00:02:29]>> Very well, thank you. I'm good. I'm good.

[00:02:31]>> What about you?

[00:02:32]>> Good.

[00:02:33]I'm doing great. I'm doing great. It's very warm here as we were talking. Uh we're over 100 degrees, 104 Fahrenheit and you said it's very warm there in Italy, right?

[00:02:42]>> Very much. Yeah, we're getting you know the winds from Africa.

[00:02:46]>> Well, I wanted to go ahead and get started with your book and tell everybody uh I have a copy right here.

[00:02:51]I'm about halfway through reading it, okay? And I'm really enjoying it, you know.

[00:02:56]It's available by the way for anybody it's available on Amazon uh in Italian as well as English, right?

[00:03:03]>> And and we also translated it in German is almost finished.

[00:03:07]>> Okay.

[00:03:08]>> we find by the someone and maybe we'll do it also in Spanish.

[00:03:13]>> Okay, that's great. That's great. But I want to we'll start with the book and then we'll talk about other subjects as as after we do that, okay? Um I'll tell you what I love about the book. This is a an unauthorized biography of David Miscavige. Of course you and your wife knew David and you Shelly uh as you were public Scientologists in Clearwater and uh like I said you eventually became like his stylist and designed clothing and uniforms for the Sea Org in Scientology and all that. But uh I'll tell you what I loved about the book because I know a lot of the information that you talk about in the book because from my point of view I was working for Miscavige and I was in the Sea Organization. But, what I like about your book is that it your book, in my opinion, takes the point of view of a public Scientologist finding out this information for the first time, right?

[00:04:03]Am I correct?

[00:04:05]>> You [clears throat] have made it right.

[00:04:07]See, we didn't know anything before the big, you know, St. Petersburg time uh situation and the bomb, I consider 2000 We were totally, you know, online.

[00:04:22]We really believed, you know, that he was the one that was chosen by L Ron Hubbard. We believed everything because we thought we were dealing with honest people.

[00:04:36]>> Right.

[00:04:37]>> We thought that.

[00:04:39]>> Right.

[00:04:39]>> It was not like that.

[00:04:41]>> No, and and you wouldn't have known that because, you know, the way Scientology and the Sea Organization were set up is the closer you got to Hubbard or to Miscavige, uh the more you knew what was really going on behind the scenes, but a public person, that was all kept, you know, it was a need-to-know basis. If you didn't need to know what was going on behind the scenes, you they wouldn't have told you.

[00:05:03]>> Yes. I mean, I I'd been I'd been auditing the Sea Org from '74 to '82.

[00:05:09]>> Yeah.

[00:05:10]>> We started in Milano, we went to FSO, we've been, you know.

[00:05:15]So, we know the ins and outs, you know.

[00:05:20]So, most of the people I I write about in the book we also met or knew before, you see.

[00:05:28]>> Yeah.

[00:05:28]>> And I think the book also of course, as you said, there are several of things that are known, you know, it's not everything is new.

[00:05:37]But, it's like a compilation all in one place, you see. That that's where it has weight, you know, because it is in one place you can see them.

[00:05:51]>> No, I totally agree with you. And just for our our viewers to understand, every chapter of the book he tells information stories. And some of it, you know, you'll you'll you would have seen on the internet or you have read from Tony Ortega or other people or whatever. But he's got it all compiled and every chapter has footnotes for everything pretty much everything you say in there unless it's something that you it's all of that. But literally every chapter has footnotes that you can go and see exactly where he got the information from, testimony and trials, declarations from people, uh people's books, people's interviews, you know, and that type of thing. And I so it makes it very powerful. And like you said, it's a great compilation. How hard was it to get all that stuff put together?

[00:06:37]>> It was hard mostly because I didn't You didn't want to We didn't want to bore people, we you know, the usual. In fact, most of the chapters in the beginning are a like cinematography.

[00:06:54]So, I pretend I was there looking at a scene.

[00:06:59]Maybe the scene is not true, is not real. And of course, I say that that what I think or what I imagine is my imagination, but it gets pretty near to what was happening to my belief.

[00:07:13]And then again into also personal thing because I something going on also.

[00:07:21]But mostly I had to be precise, you know, because you are dealing with a monster here. You are not dealing with, you know, uh Cinderella.

[00:07:30]So, uh I had to be very precise in case somebody wants to retaliate, which I hope that they will do.

[00:07:41]>> Yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned that because understand and we all understand that who have been fair gamed and had Office of Special Affairs come after us with private investigators and lawyers and all that sort of stuff. But you basically covered your bases cuz you've got like I said, you you footnote everything that's there.

[00:07:58]>> Yeah, it was legally checked. It was legally checked.

[00:08:02]>> Yeah, yeah, it was legally checked.

[00:08:04]Yeah, and and it is funny too because, you know, our channel um uh Scientology peeling onion You you definitely you use us in quotations from our shows which we should totally fine with it. We totally appreciate. It's several places throughout the book. And um and I I was reading I was like, "Hey Janice, I said we're in the book, you know, he covers this thing we're talking about the free wins with David Miscavige and this and that, you know." And uh we've done over 400 interviews in 3 years, you know, and our whole purpose the same thing is we're just telling the history and letting people tell their stories. They don't come back after us at all. Scientology or also because we're just telling the truth. I mean, what are they going to do? Say, "Oh, that's not true." You know what I mean?

[00:08:45]It's just like it's not like we're making stuff up.

[00:08:48]>> I'm telling you something that maybe you don't know, you know, because you you see the book, you see it by all means.

[00:08:55]How comes that we did the book?

[00:08:57]You see, it's not that I >> Yeah.

[00:08:59]>> woke up one morning and said, "Okay, I'm doing the unauthorized bi- biography of David Miscavige."

[00:09:05]I tell you what happened.

[00:09:07]I was there just browsing, you know, my mail and I get my provider saying, "Okay, you can get a a website for free."

[00:09:16]>> Mhm.

[00:09:17]>> I said, "Okay, who cares? I have my website. I don't need a website." But then I said, "Well, let me check, you know."

[00:09:25]And just for fun, I wrote www.davidmiscavige.it.

[00:09:33]I was sure it was taken, you know, because Of course I would.

[00:09:37]It was not.

[00:09:39]>> Ah.

[00:09:40]>> So he said I buy it. So I bought I bought David Miscavige.org. IT.

[00:09:48]>> Yeah.

[00:09:49]>> Okay.

[00:09:51]Then I said, "Okay, what am I doing with this David Miscavige.org?" So I decided since you know we have a son in the field.

[00:09:59]Yeah. Flavio.

[00:10:00]Flavio Lulli.

[00:10:02]And we tried in every way in every way to you know get to him and etc. It's a long story, but What do we decided? He said, "Okay, I send a message to Miscavige through this site."

[00:10:18]>> Mhm.

[00:10:18]>> Yeah, that's right.

[00:10:20]So I wrote we wrote the message like we can we can make a deal here, you know, because your office of special affair flunked because your site in Italy is not protected. It's mine now. So your name is mine.

[00:10:42]>> Yeah.

[00:10:42]>> So we don't want any money, anything. We just want you know a gentleman deal, you know.

[00:10:49]Just send us back Flavio. We give you back your site.

[00:10:53]It doesn't cost you anything, you know.

[00:10:55]You just want your member out there whatever it left there, you know.

[00:11:01]>> Yeah.

[00:11:02]>> [clears throat] >> Hey, but if you come back home So willing to be back home after that.

[00:11:09]Of course, we posted this on our Facebook. Of course, somebody saw that.

[00:11:14]I don't know if David Miscavige saw that.

[00:11:17]Maybe not.

[00:11:18]You know, I don't know if somebody is filtering the situation.

[00:11:23]So it's very strange that nothing happened. I mean, something happened.

[00:11:26]After 2 days, someone wanted to buy the site.

[00:11:31]>> Uh-huh.

[00:11:32]>> We were contacted by a company saying, "Okay, we are interested but We say, "We are not interested.

[00:11:38]We just want there is written on the side what we want for the site.

[00:11:43]We don't want money. We We're not interested."

[00:11:47]Then, what happened?

[00:11:49]We wrote in the site, "I'm going to write your unauthorized biography and I'm going to post a chapter of the biography every day or so till all the deal is through or the biography becomes a book."

[00:12:11]So, after 3 4 months, I don't know, whatever it took, there was no communication, nothing.

[00:12:20]Even if the site was monitored by Church of Scientology International, church in Milano, church of everywhere because, you know, you can find out who goes in the site.

[00:12:32]>> Yeah.

[00:12:33]>> Daily was monitored to see what we were writing and what not.

[00:12:38]But, nothing happened. So, we wrote, "Okay, we do the book."

[00:12:44]So, we deleted all the chapters >> Mhm.

[00:12:49]>> and we made it as promised in the book in a book.

[00:12:53]Nothing happened. So, there are two possibility. Maybe you know and you can give me your evaluation on that.

[00:13:02]Or he doesn't know about it, which is one hypothesis.

[00:13:08]Or he doesn't give a [ __ ] about it, which is a second hypothesis, which maybe is that because he's not into that anymore. He's into, you know, million and billion and trillion of dollars. You see what I mean?

[00:13:22]>> Yeah.

[00:13:23]>> Other games besides his reputation. He knows his reputation >> So you think >> Well, you know, he he is a narcissist and he has a huge ego and in my opinion, he reads everything that's written about him because when I worked for him, anything that was written about him or he wanted to know about everything.

[00:13:42]Every decision down to, you know, what color fabric was going to be used on the chairs in his office or to whatever, you know, or down in the Oregon in Milan, he has to approve it. So I guarantee you he knows about it.

[00:13:55]Uh whether he cares or not, I don't know.

[00:13:59]>> I don't think he cares because he I mean, it doesn't cost him nothing, you see.

[00:14:04]I would have liked to have a book published on me.

[00:14:07]>> Yeah.

[00:14:07]>> With all of this. I wouldn't like it.

[00:14:09]You see what I mean?

[00:14:11]>> I think though, just now thinking just now, now that you brought it up, right?

[00:14:16]I think he he's already checked out. I think mental I think he is already, like you said, into the millions and billions and the real estate. I mean, he literally that is his focus, in my opinion.

[00:14:28]Um because, you know, he's 65 years old now. You know what I mean? I'm I'm 67.

[00:14:33]I'm 2 years older than him. We're all going through metal medical and health issues now. You know what I mean? How much longer does he really have? 10 years? You know? I mean, this is a guy who chain-smoked Camels unfiltered, cigars, drank whiskey, you know, you covered that in the book, you know, and uh doesn't, you know, he exercises and tries to look good and this and that, but hey, it catches up with you. Plus he had asthma this whole life, you know? So I know how paranoid apparently he was during COVID, you know what I mean? Like the organization was shut down and, you know, so uh you know, who knows? Who knows how long he's going to be? And maybe his goal is just he's just trying to live out in hiding and avoid lawsuits and everything else that's going on.

[00:15:16]>> Lawsuits.

[00:15:16]>> Yeah. I mean, I did what I promised I was doing here.

[00:15:20]>> Yeah.

[00:15:21]>> You know, that's the product. The product is the book.

[00:15:23]>> What's been the reception of the book so far in terms of I imagine you have a following or people in Italy and things like that that that follow you.

[00:15:30]>> Amazon for an Amazon book is not bad.

[00:15:34]>> Yeah.

[00:15:35]>> It started of course very good in the beginning. Now it is slowing down, but without any advertising or whatever, keep keeps going. You know, that's the >> Yeah.

[00:15:48]>> I like that. And we did it we we don't do it for the money. The book is $15 and you know, it's 300 plus pages. And the ebook is $4 or something like that.

[00:16:00]So >> Yeah. And the thing is it's available on Amazon everywhere, just so you know. But the thing that's great about it is like for instance on our on our channel, right? We've got 11,000 subscribers. Who knows? I mean, we we get 1,500 2,000 views on our on our shows every time we do them. Well, there's going to be a lot of people that don't know all this information. And like you said, you've now compiled it into one location. So, if they want [clears throat] to spend the time, it's not that didn't take that long to read, it's a perfect perfect reference. You know what I mean? It's like literally, if you want to you want to talk answer somebody's question, you've got the book as a reference. So, hopefully some of our viewers will be buying it from you. And uh I'm sure others will as well, you know.

[00:16:41]>> Why not?

[00:16:43]But I mean, the book also is for Scientologists because it reveals a lot of things.

[00:16:50]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:16:50]>> Also for non-Scientologists because it exposes who is really behind, you know, is the the leader in the shadow. He's a it's a leader in the shadow.

[00:17:01]>> Yeah.

[00:17:02]>> You don't know his powers, you know what I mean? He knew you are under his thumb.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah, and it's pretty amazing too cuz I mean, I met him when he was 16. He just joined the Sea Org 30 days before and we We roommates. I 17 just had graduated high school.

[00:17:18]And to see the evolution from what he was then to what he is now, it's it's a fascinating story. It would make a fascinating movie. You know what I mean as far as the villainous, you know, and and that type of thing because he he literally like you definitely lay it out about his ability to powerfully take over power and get rid of anybody who he perceives to be a potential threat. Internally, he got rid of, you know, anybody who was basically close to Hubbard, he got rid of them eventually, you know. And that's how he consolidated his power. And then he all he had to do was go up there and talk to, you know, at all the events as the master of ceremonies and and basically take all that adulation that used to go towards L. Ron Hubbard and then away you go.

[00:18:02]>> [laughter] >> I mean, this is something that I think this is and he said about at the end of the book, which is the main crime from my point of view.

[00:18:19]He really was a it he did an act of treason of gigantic, you know, dimension toward Scientologists that believed that they were doing something to better themselves and to better society and to better the world. And then this guy comes along. You see what I mean? And you can say anything you want about L.

[00:18:45]Ron Hubbard, you know, that he was paranoid and he was this and he was that. But I think he he was in a bonafide in his research, in his willingness to find something that could help people. I think he had good intentions. He's He was a bonafide researcher, a bonafide uh philosopher. Miscavige is just an an opportunist. He As as you said he's an narcissist and so he's very dangerous.

[00:19:15]>> Yes.

[00:19:16]No, he has no interest in bettering things. He has interest in controlling money and power. I mean literally, I mean you can see figures like that throughout history that that's all they're interested in is themselves.

[00:19:30]He's not interested in clearing the planet like we used to say. You know, I mean I'm sure you I read Here's the other book I was going to mention as well that you're that your wife wrote that I also read and this one here and it's I read it last year and it's a fast it's a fantastic book about her time in Scientology and why she got involved.

[00:19:50]>> Yeah, and why she got involved and what was so powerful about Scientology and how basically it was all stolen away and I think I agree with you. I think his trees and his act is basically for the viewers out there who don't know.

[00:20:04]Anybody you talk to who was around in the 1970s or 60s or whatever, Scientology was on a roll and and it wasn't like we're trying to take over the planet. It was more we were trying to help each other and help society just like you said, right? And so that to me also was the biggest ARC break as we say in Scientology for me when I left was that I I felt like I'd lost that purpose. It would been taken it had been stolen away from me.

[00:20:29]>> Yes. At least this is what he did and his friend Pat Broker did.

[00:20:35]It was a huge act of treason because okay. Ron Hubbard did whatever he did.

[00:20:41]He reached the he developed whatever level he developed.

[00:20:45]We didn't we couldn't fly, you know.

[00:20:49]And move to other planets. Fine. Okay, but we have a a better and greater understanding of life if you study Scientology.

[00:20:58]That said, they should have said that Ron Hubbard died.

[00:21:03]That's it. Not that he died and he left the body and he went to you know, Oh, oh yeah.

[00:21:16]So, but the other act of treason, huge act of treason, was that he compiled everything that needed to be compiled up to whatever. You see, what we were going after was total freedom. That's was the promise, which was not kept, but at least we were going toward it. But, one should have said, "Okay, Ron Hubbard died."

[00:21:43]He didn't leave anything written.

[00:21:47]No. Sorry, boys. You see what I mean?

[00:21:50]Maybe the church would have disbanded. I don't know the the consequences, but at least it would have been honest.

[00:21:57]Ron Hubbard died. He left nothing. Now, we have those, for example, I'm just, you know, making Yeah.

[00:22:05]an example. We have these 12, 15, tech specialists, and they will see whatever we can develop.

[00:22:17]Okay, go forward. You see what I mean?

[00:22:20]Yeah. But, you put the carrot in front of the donkey, you know?

[00:22:27]Donkey.

[00:22:28]And so, we went for the carrot. And the carrot was the promise of Pat Broker and Mr. David Miscavige. Pat Broker was taken in over by, you know, the power. So, Yeah.

[00:22:44]You know, what's funny, too, or they could have also then said, "Hey, El Ron has already laid out all of this technology and all of these levels and everything. Let's go out and deliver them to the people who aren't in Scientology. How about that?" Do you know what I mean? Like, like let's really change the world, cuz it's changed our lives, you know what I mean?

[00:23:00]Let's change the world. They could have come out and said that too, but they didn't really do that.

[00:23:05]>> I I wrote it in the book, you know, when when he started with the you know, the big idea ideal orgs, you know, which is totally contrary to a policy that Ronald wrote, which is called ideal org. You read ideal org policy, it's totally contrary to what David Miscavige is doing.

[00:23:24]>> Fine.

[00:23:26]>> So, when they were coming to us to try to get money from us, you know, for the ideal org, and it was in the beginning, you know, and about it was this, you know, urge, okay, we we have to make ideal orgs and you people behind it and reges and whatever you you name it, you know, lots of staff members.

[00:23:47]And I talked to the in charge of the situation here in Italy.

[00:23:52]I said, "Listen, but why are you wasting all this time to buy buildings?

[00:23:57]Why you are not wasting the same time to train auditors that go out and audit people?"

[00:24:07]>> Right.

[00:24:09]>> He He couldn't explain, because there is no explanation.

[00:24:13]There is an explanation if you understand what one is going after, and Miscavige is just going after the money.

[00:24:21]>> Yeah.

[00:24:21]>> No, it's not more of a philosophy, it's no more of a philosophy. Scientology is just a business, you know, a a real estate business.

[00:24:30]>> Right.

[00:24:31]That's it. That's what it is right now.

[00:24:33]It's donations and real estate business.

[00:24:35]They got money offshore and they >> very revealing what when you interviewed Bitty Miscavige, you know, she was the one doing it.

[00:24:44]This was very revealing. Nobody knows that. You see, nobody knows that.

[00:24:49]And it's full of information there. You see what I mean? And what he said about the lawyer, you know, in the conference room, they said, look at >> That's right.

[00:24:58]>> You go, you know, we do the same that we did.

[00:25:01]>> No, and it was purely coincidence that I was in that meeting. I had no purpose in that meeting other than I was in Los Angeles that day and was with because I worked for David and Shelly Miscavige at that time. And they said, "Oh, why don't you come in and sit in on this meeting?"

[00:25:16]And I happened to be there.

[00:25:17]>> own information. I mean, their lawyer is suggesting, "Okay, let's get some money offshore."

[00:25:23]Okay.

[00:25:25]>> [laughter] >> The key point was we never got any refund requests from the Safe Environment Fund for the Snow White and Mary Sue. We And that was the whole thing. But this is a way to protect money. That I mean, that was it.

[00:25:37]>> Yeah, I quoted you on that. But I see Yeah. I remember the offshore thing was also when I was there because I remember we were working for Flag in 1978, 79. And Europe money were not going in the US.

[00:25:57]>> Mhm.

[00:25:57]>> Money from Europe were going to Luxembourg.

[00:26:00]>> Right.

[00:26:01]>> So, Luxembourg is not US. Why?

[00:26:06]>> So, >> they were playing with, you know, "Okay, we have money there, money here. You should protect." Of course, you you should, you know, not be naive. Okay, "We are for the goods of the planet." Of course, you are a big religion, you are a new movement, you should have resources to protect yourself.

[00:26:25]But another thing is everything is done to gather money because we have to protect ourselves. And I'm telling you, I was here in Italy in 1980 two when all the orgs in Italy were raided.

[00:26:43]>> Right.

[00:26:44]>> Everybody. Everything was closed down.

[00:26:48]And the IRA and the IAS was already in place in the promise world. Whatever happens to any org, we are here and we will save the org. We didn't see $1 to save to save the org. You see what I mean?

[00:27:07]I think it was maybe 88 maybe 88, yeah.

[00:27:11]Uh so what what happened was that everybody I I me and my wife, we had the org coming to our house to audit and make courses.

[00:27:24]Mhm.

[00:27:26]We raised money from a concert we did with Chick Corea because he he was here on tour and we also did a small concert to raise money for you know, keeping the thing alive. No IRS money, nothing.

[00:27:40]>> One thing I want to say about your book.

[00:27:42]You know, you you cover you know, L. Ron Hubbard and and his final years and basically in hiding and Pat and Annie Broker and the communication line, which we all I knew because, you know, I was involved with it in terms of like Miscavige controlled the communications of Hubbard and then Hubbard that that was how he That was the power was that communication line, right? And Pat Broker was the conduit in between, right? But, you know, the funny thing is this. First of all, let me make one observation then I'll then I'll say anything is that I hadn't thought about this before. You know, we all knew that Hubbard or we you know, we've known over the years that he had some stroke. He had had strokes. You know what I mean?

[00:28:21]And so he was not in great health and when we would get, if you remember, we would get recordings, Ron's journals and stuff, his voice would sound different like, you know, and we would get them and and and it just sounded weaker, you know? And so we thought that there was something wrong, you know, he he was an older man and all that and of course we've now later learned that he basically was like very paranoid, which obviously he already was, right? But, he was even more so paranoid and then he was going he was going kind of nuts, you know? And you pointed out something about dementia, you know what I mean?

[00:28:52]And I just from my own personal experience recently, my mother passed away in January at 95 years old, and she had dementia the last year and a half, right? And you could see her reasoning go, and she would get very angry about things that really weren't important.

[00:29:09]But so Hubbard did the same thing.

[00:29:11]Hubbard would write down based on these reports he would get from management and and Miscavige and all that, and all of a sudden something that was completely off the wall, like you weren't expecting that, he he would be angry about something that you then had to change direction and stuff, and we're all kind of going like, "He's got to be getting false information or something." But I'm starting to understand a little bit that, you know, that the people who took care of him, and also the messengers, they reacted to what how Hubbard was, you know what I mean? They didn't they didn't control Hubbard. Hubbard controlled what was going on. And so they probably reacted to him getting upset about something that literally those were the marching orders that went forward. And so he he his dementia was taking over, and that was what Miscavige and Broker basically knew and and exploited.

[00:30:01]>> on that, yeah.

[00:30:02]>> Yeah. Cuz I had never witnessed dementia before, but it's really powerful. I mean, you know, in terms of the the the decay that happens, and the person that was there before is not the same person anymore. They they've lost a lot of their reasoning ability.

[00:30:17]>> But you see, the point is that for us not in the magic circle >> Yeah.

[00:30:24]>> this could not have been, you know? It's something that cannot exist.

[00:30:30]>> Right.

[00:30:31]>> But for Pat Broker and David Miscavige, they know.

[00:30:35]And then in the book I write this cinematography surrealistic situation when uh Hubbard's son from the vault >> Oh, yeah. Nibs, yeah.

[00:30:49]>> Nibs.

[00:30:50]>> L. Ron Hubbard Jr., yeah.

[00:30:51]>> They mean they I I imagine they mean say oh, the old man has dementia. What the [ __ ] are we doing, you know? Okay, just get some, you know, >> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:31:02]>> digital >> Well, that's the other thing, too. Like that his will was signed like days before few days before he died and that was challenged in court, you know, I mean the lawsuits and stuff because they didn't believe that really he was mentally capable of doing that, you know.

[00:31:15]>> I wanted to stress one thing on this uh in printing, you know, by L. Ron Hubbard age that was accepted by you know, by the judges and as >> Of course, yeah. Mhm.

[00:31:27]>> But you see in there and I'm telling you this because this is used.

[00:31:31]This is the only thing that is used to legitimate >> [clears throat] >> David Miscavige. The line where L. Ron Hubbard said David Miscavige >> He's my friend and he's my trusted friend, yeah.

[00:31:44]>> I will challenge my son when he was here, Flavio.

[00:31:47]>> Yeah.

[00:31:48]>> Because he bought that. You see, he bought that a piece of paper. He was saying the agent thing, you know, Marty Rathbun and all this story.

[00:31:57]So he said, "Okay, but listen, Miscavige was appointed by Ron, you know."

[00:32:02]I don't believe that.

[00:32:04]I just read that he says he's a good friend. But you see, of course, when you're going from trial, you will say, "Okay, Miscavige is a bastard." And then he says, "He's a good friend, okay." But >> I like I liked your cinematic uh portrayal of that, too. Of that it's like, "Oh, why is this in Pac's to David in your in your cinema? Why is this in here?" Oh, it's just, you know, they think it's a good idea if you put that in there.

[00:32:27]>> [laughter] >> He said Cuz he wasn't really preparing. Well, >> Yeah. No, that's right. But uh you know, it's funny though, you know, you also mentioned as well Pat and David Miscavige after L. Ron Hubbard died, I don't know I don't know if you knew this or not or whatever, but you know, Pat Broeker was not there on the property when Hubbard died in Creston, California. L. Ron Hubbard banished him from Creston apparently and so he was at the Newberry Springs property which was about 3 or 4 hour drive away all during that time and the reason Hubbard got rid of him or said, "Don't come back until you get me an all clear." And the all clear is what Hubbard wanted more than anything. And just for our viewers to know what an all clear was, he wanted to be cleared of all the the lawsuits and the potential legal troubles with the IRS and this and that, right? So that he could come back out and do his movies and do his research and public and this and that, right? And that was what That's why he was in hiding. He was in hiding because of the IRS raids and the FBI raids and all this other stuff.

[00:33:31]That's why he left in 1980. But that was what he was after was the all clear. And they failed at that. And you Hubbard died and they failed at getting it. But I was thinking about this when I was driving around yesterday about this, right? What's the difference between L.

[00:33:46]Ron Hubbard in 1986 and David Miscavige today? David Miscavige is living basically the same cloistered life behind security guards and and keeping away from lawsuits and this and that, right? But the difference is is because they got the tax exempt status, that Scientology is a religion. All of a sudden that handles any of the lawsuits or legal stuff cuz now what do they have? They have this whole thing where judges are going, "Oh, we can't interfere. Oh, they have an arbitration policy, good. You go do the arbitration policy." And like you correctly point out in the book, their whole tactic is to delay, delay, delay, not to win.

[00:34:26]>> That's cool.

[00:34:27]>> And and and so Miscavige has the kind of protection that Hubbard would always wanted because they were he would they were coming after him the governments.

[00:34:36]It was It's not It's not a a false thing that he had to leave country from country to country because, you know, it was cuz they were going after him and they were kicking him out. They kicked him out of Australia, out of England, out of Rhodesia. You know what I mean?

[00:34:50]And they kicked him out of the ports and stuff. So, he wanted a safe space. And now Miscavige has that. Once he got that IRS redemption, he can do whatever he wants. Nobody's going to do anything.

[00:35:01]>> The problem is that he is doing this castle of sand full of something that nobody wanted, you see? I didn't want all of this [ __ ] I just wanted to go free, you see what I mean? I just wanted to study uh whatever Hubbard wrote and see if I could benefit, you know, since I did benefit from part of that, I wanted to continue but see the thing, there is a an all different paradigm that can be used if you want to clear the planet.

[00:35:41]And if you want to make people better.

[00:35:43]Now, I don't want to make any comparison with the Catholic Church because it's a bit bigger than as I told you Miscavige.

[00:35:52]But uh organ- organized religion look like looks like they follow the same pattern, you see what I mean?

[00:36:04]They start from a vision, you know, of a founder, of a saint, of whatever.

[00:36:11]And then they morph out into a control mechanism, money-making, and they keeps on saying just [ __ ] You see what I mean?

[00:36:25]So, it's a trademark of organized religion, which is the difference between religion and spirituality. You know, religion they go to church and this and to, you know, pretend you have some morality issues.

[00:36:40]Spirituality is another thing. It's why are we here?

[00:36:44]>> Right.

[00:36:46]Well, and you see it in society, too. I hate to say this, but, you know, back in the 1970s when I was a teenager, you know, we were talking about, "Oh, drugs are going to take over the world and this and that, you know, and and you have crime is taking over and all that."

[00:36:56]It's worse now than it was back then.

[00:36:59]You know [laughter] what I mean? I mean, literally, all you have to do is look around and see the people, the homeless people, the the drug addiction, the the this it's way worse than it was than back then and and Scientology had an answer for drugs, you know what I mean?

[00:37:11]And for education. I mean, I you know, people may laugh at what I'm saying, but we truly believed it. It definitely helped me. And even if it helped a little bit, it would be better than what's going on right now.

[00:37:23]>> Yeah, but you see, you can take it in you know, you're going to have to believe, you see? Faith it's a very low level of awareness, you know? Okay.

[00:37:37]>> Yeah.

[00:37:38]>> Nothing will happen. I have nothing to do with it. You know, I have faith that something Or you can, you know, inquire. You can look. You can And if you do that, and you know, whatever is written in Scientology helps you, good. If it doesn't, drop it, you know?

[00:37:54]Why do you do it, you know?

[00:37:56]>> Yeah.

[00:37:56]>> Well, but if you look at Scientology, I can see it also now, you know, with, you know, people that are out of Scientology. The main issue is mostly a psychotherapy. I can say that 90 95% of the people, that's their approach. I have a problem.

[00:38:13]I want to solve this.

[00:38:15]Give me the solution.

[00:38:17]That's the That's the approach, you know?

[00:38:20]Which Scientology could and can you know, it's like psychotherapy. But then if you need psychotherapy, you go to a psychologist.

[00:38:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. You see what I >> the other thing too that you discussed, disconnection, the disconnection policy, is one of the most the worst policies of Scientology in my in my opinion. I'm sure you agree cuz it tore your family apart and it's tore my family apart and and uh you know, so many different people's lives it affects. And it's so unnecessary. I mean, literally Hubbard's like you pointed out in the book, it's he just he canceled the disconnection. I mean, obviously, I'd tell this to people, if you're in a relationship where the other person's beating the crap out of you, you know what I mean?

[00:39:02]Well, you then you need to disconnect and get away from them, right? Or if they're emotionally emotionally, you know, keeping you under the gun, yeah, you need to disconnect. But if a brother or sister is a Catholic or a Muslim or whatever, you don't disconnect from them because you are a Scientologist or you don't believe in what they believe in.

[00:39:20]You You know, I always thought it was ridiculous after I left it. You know, if I met some people who were like Christian, really heavy duty Christian, and like if you try and try and, you know, debate them about their their religion and their faith, they they just brush it off going like, "No, this is what I believe." And like you said, faith is very powerful for people. I'm I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong.

[00:39:42]As long as you do good works and good things, that's a good thing, you know?

[00:39:45]But then Miscavige took it to the nth degree where he just cuts apart families. And it's a way of control.

[00:39:52]That's all it is. It's just to control people.

[00:39:55]>> But you see even there, I don't know if that's correct, true or not. But it was, you know, a testimony by Robert Vaughn Young.

[00:40:07]>> Yeah.

[00:40:08]>> I I doubt that he had, you know, a fun doing testimony on trial. You see what I mean?

[00:40:16]One usually does it, you know, because one can and should say that.

[00:40:22]So, as you said, Hubbard canceled this connection.

[00:40:27]Possibly because, you know, the inquiry in Australia was too heavy and he had to.

[00:40:33]Okay, so and now because of this religious protection, maybe nobody wants to touch it, you know, because, okay, psychology, religion, blah blah blah.

[00:40:45]But, you see, what happened is that Miscavige ordered Robert Vaughn Young to write the policy on disconnection.

[00:40:56]>> Yeah.

[00:40:57]>> And that's what we have. But, we don't know that was Vaughn Young writing it.

[00:41:02]Nobody knew. So, when you go then when you go on course on doing your DTS SSP course, meaning you have to understand about suppression, bad people, and blah blah blah, you read the solution, which is we reinstated disconnection.

[00:41:19]Huh.

[00:41:19]>> [laughter] >> Before you cancel then you reinstate.

[00:41:23]So, >> Well, and and that's just crazy That's what's crazy about the golden age of technology that Miscavige put out and this and that. You have no confidence that what he put out is what Hubbard had. You know what I mean? Just absolutely none. And it was just a money grab. And the fact that the biggest thing when I heard about this, and you know, cuz you've been an auditor for years, when he changed the definition of a floating needle, I I was shocked, shocked. I was going like, what happened to FNVGI's What happened to like, you know, you know, don't don't trust the meter, trust the PC across from you. You know what I mean?

[00:41:58]I I was shocked when I heard that. You know, needs to have so many swings and this and that. People were red tagging left and right, you know.

[00:42:05]>> Yeah, but he's not receiving auditing with that. Let me see.

[00:42:08]>> No, no. And that that's actually very suppressive. If you want to talk about real suppression, that real suppression.

[00:42:13]>> I can I can tell you things regarding authority levels without getting into any confidential not to disturb anybody.

[00:42:24]But you do OT 7, which is solo notes, which is the same thing as notes.

[00:42:32]>> Right.

[00:42:33]>> Besides the fact that you you do it solo, okay?

[00:42:36]>> You're doing it yourself rather than with an auditor.

[00:42:38]>> It's the same. It's the same.

[00:42:40]>> It's exactly the same.

[00:42:41]>> Then you have some other techniques, but you know I don't I don't even go into that, but I want to stress that it is the same.

[00:42:51]When I was trained in Flag on the golden age of tech >> Right.

[00:43:00]>> I was trained to I want to explain it easily to get the item, which means the situation, the important thing only when was having a certain immediate manifestation, blowdown, F E.

[00:43:25]Okay?

[00:43:27]On solo notes.

[00:43:29]Stress, strain.

[00:43:31]Then when I got out, I started studying and I started auditing. And I had a I'm telling you a very deep inability to understand notes.

[00:43:49]Because notes was saying you do this.

[00:43:53]Solo notes was saying you do that. And notes was saying, for example, the item is the very first fault. When it reads it reads faster, you don't need blowdown.

[00:44:07]>> Yeah.

[00:44:08]>> You know what that means? It's not It's It's like the event situation on a very higher level because it makes it so that if you audit on Solo Lots using that idea, what happens you get you audit more, you over run, you audit more than you should. So, you get a lots of wrong items.

[00:44:35]And you know what a wrong item does.

[00:44:38]>> Yes.

[00:44:38]>> Right.

[00:44:39]>> It's the reason for the decay of cases, etc. etc. So, that's the intention. And I'm telling you another thing. I did my first Solo Lots in 1980 seven.

[00:44:55]When David Mayo, the very real of the world, was there, you know.

[00:45:00]And it was exactly the same as now.

[00:45:02]>> Yeah.

[00:45:04]>> So, then it came with a golden age of fake, you know.

[00:45:09]But you know, lots of people died because of that.

[00:45:13]>> Mhm.

[00:45:14]>> It gives very bad physical decay.

[00:45:21]>> Yes, it can if you get wrong items, absolutely.

[00:45:23]>> Very much. And this is by the order of David Miscavige. It's very technical, so it's like the event.

[00:45:32]It's not easy to argue with it, but you know, I had to really uh take away the ingrained uh instruction that was wrong with it.

[00:45:43]And this is what he says.

[00:45:46]This is what Miscavige says.

[00:45:49]Something is wrong.

[00:45:51]So, >> Yeah, that's crazy. It really is. What do you think What What do you think um the future is basically from Miscavige and Scientology? I Do you have any connections anymore? Are you under the radar or whatever with people that are still involved with Scientology and the in the church?

[00:46:06]>> Yeah, some yes. Some yes. I'm telling you one thing that maybe you don't know, but now we want mission.

[00:46:14]I just got that recently.

[00:46:16]>> What's that?

[00:46:17]>> Missions, they have to have the same qualifications of orgs.

[00:46:24]If they don't >> that mean?

[00:46:26]>> Meaning a certain staff, a certain organization.

[00:46:30]>> to be a size like you can't just be a husband and wife starting a mission.

[00:46:34]>> No.

[00:46:34]>> [laughter] >> If you if you can't, you are cancelled.

[00:46:39]That's the latest.

[00:46:41]>> It's just another way of just tearing things apart. I just so our viewers know, back back in the day, literally you could buy a franchise and a husband and wife or two people could start a mission and just start, you know, delivering Scientology up to through Dianetics and then the people go to the orgs after that, but you know, now it's like, "Oh, no, you've got to be, you know, really big." And it's just crazy.

[00:47:04]>> The new the new thing that I got from somebody under the radar, but I think that the future of Scientology is just till Miscavige dies and another, you know, companion of his goes on because possibly I don't know if somebody is saying or >> Well, I mean I haven't Have you seen I mean I haven't heard of anybody. I mean at any of the events he doesn't He doesn't have anybody that looks like the heir apparent or anything like that. I don't think he trusts anybody. Do you know what I mean?

[00:47:32]>> He when when he will die, maybe 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 20 years, 100 years, I don't know.

[00:47:39]>> Yeah.

[00:47:40]>> Somebody will have to take over because you have a gigantic asset there.

[00:47:45]>> Yeah, you've got you've got finances, you've got real estate, you've got all this stuff. And and in a way I wonder if that's kind of his pattern of what he's trying to do if he is trying to continue it. Kind of like the Mormon church, which is everywhere. Do you know what I mean? They're like they they have churches all over the place, you know, and and uh who knows? I mean, I I don't know if he thinks that far ahead, but you know.

[00:48:06]>> I don't know, but I Well, I think is that he would just continue and die.

[00:48:10]See? And then bits and pieces of Scientology maybe will stay on the net and somebody will be interested and somebody will hold it.

[00:48:19]But, you know, it's a sign sign This is what we are looking at with Miscavige is not Scientology.

[00:48:28]It's a pretense of a religion that is used to finance a project of his.

[00:48:37]Because it has no benefit. You see what I mean?

[00:48:40]>> Right.

[00:48:40]>> Religion organized religion should benefit the community, should benefit the world.

[00:48:47]What is doing to benefit what? Even Narconon, you were mentioning before, back in the days they were saving people. If you want to go in Narconon, it cost you 30, 50,000 dollars.

[00:49:01]So, I what are you saving? You see what I mean?

[00:49:05]So, if you want to save take That's why I was telling you organized religion and making a a comparison with the Catholic Church. I have nothing against the philosophy.

[00:49:19]The Catholic philosophy of Jesus Christ whatsoever. But, you see, you cannot save.

[00:49:25]For example, one thing that the new pope says was, "Okay, we have to let people in." You see what I mean? Like immigrants and We should Yeah. I ain't I have not seen anybody in the Vatican.

[00:49:40]I've not seen one tent in the Vatican.

[00:49:44]When I will see a bunch of uh little houses and trailers and tents filling the Vatican Yeah. Then I would say, "You were a great >> And you go, "Oh, yes, they're they're He's a man of his word."

[00:49:57]>> [laughter] >> But you see what I mean?

[00:49:59]>> Yeah.

[00:50:00]>> are talking. They talk. They, you know, give you a speech and they pretend it's like the politician. You know, look at what happened now in G7. You have Trump that says to the European, "You are son of a [ __ ] Bastard. I ask for your help every day." How do they go? Go to lunch from G7.

[00:50:18]>> Yeah.

[00:50:18]>> [laughter] >> They smile and kiss each other. I mean, this is the world we are living in and with Scientology we wanted to make it better.

[00:50:29]>> Yeah.

[00:50:30]>> Point.

[00:50:31]But then >> And and and for anybody who, you know, what do you say to people cuz this comes up all the time that, you know, "Oh, you've got to be brainwashed, you know what I mean?" It's like, you know, "Why could you still follow this because of Hubbard is you know, he abused this and he did that and you know, all these terrible things. And you know, how could you still believe in it?" What's your answer to that question cuz I have mine.

[00:50:53]>> I mean, brainwash is a very serious word.

[00:50:59]>> Yeah.

[00:50:59]>> But being brainwashed means you cannot think >> for yourself.

[00:51:03]>> yourself and you have to follow somebody else's thought.

[00:51:07]Now, when I was inside the organized Church of Scientology led by David Miscavige, I was brainwashed.

[00:51:17]>> Yes.

[00:51:18]>> When I left the organized Church of Scientology led by David Miscavige, I ended my brainwashed status and I gained my I me, I judge what I judge, especially on Scientology. I'm telling you.

[00:51:33]>> Yeah.

[00:51:34]>> I I restarted a lot of Scientology and and I reevaluated what was important, what was not important for me.

[00:51:48]And I have to tell you that most of the time I have to agree with what Amber says in the matter of procedures and ideas and so on. Some I don't agree. And if I don't agree, I don't agree.

[00:52:02]>> Right.

[00:52:02]>> I have no fear of saying, "Oh, Amber here says, you know, I think that lots of the policy you wrote for the Guardian's office are [ __ ] You see?

[00:52:11]>> Yeah.

[00:52:11]>> And mean, are evil, are criminal, evil.

[00:52:15]>> Yeah.

[00:52:16]>> But I understand also why he did it. You see what I mean?

[00:52:21]>> I do not justify why he did infiltration.

[00:52:26]>> [laughter] >> You know, you know.

[00:52:28]But you see, I understand that he was against the some issues and somebody wanted to crash him down.

[00:52:36]>> Mhm.

[00:52:37]>> He was a son of a [ __ ] but I I remember one policy. I don't know what it is now, but but he talks about high-class bastards.

[00:52:47]He talks about SEAL member being, you know, some high-class bastard. Meaning people that don't don't fear to stand and bring, you know, not by hurting people, of course, you know. Bastard in the sense that I don't know. I I I attributes that I use and I stand on my belief and my issues.

[00:53:15]And you know, he was over a lot of wings, you know, psychiatry.

[00:53:20]Then he said he's exaggerating on psychiatry. Maybe yes.

[00:53:25]>> Yeah.

[00:53:26]>> He's exaggerating on psychologist. Yes.

[00:53:30]I don't see any anything bad with a psychologist if if he is, you know, if he has empathy with his patient, okay, he can do he can do good. You see what I mean? Of course Scientology is more refined. All the thing is more refined. You have the meter.

[00:53:49]But you see he also absorb he was a great uh uh person to absorb a lot of informations.

[00:54:03]>> Mhm.

[00:54:04]>> And extract the very important part of the information.

[00:54:12]This is what I think Hubbard was capable of doing. Then he also invented things.

[00:54:19]And he went further on.

[00:54:21]Because nobody talks about uh past lives. Nobody talks about uh aliens other uh people that lives in other planets, if you know what I mean.

[00:54:37]He thinks that uh this the reason why we are in a situation like this here.

[00:54:47]>> Yeah.

[00:54:48]>> And just to give you a lot >> Yes, yes.

[00:54:49]>> It's funny I was going to say, you know, now AI, right? Artificial intelligence is now all the rage, right? Hubbard in 1983 when we first started computerizing Scientology.

[00:54:59]>> I mean?

[00:55:00]>> Yeah, I don't know if you've ever heard of the CHUG. CHUG advice is CHUG.

[00:55:05]>> CHUG.

[00:55:05]>> Okay. He wrote these long advice these long dispatches to guy named Foster Tompkins who was in charge of the Incom, the computerization about how he wanted computers set up where they basically could run organizations and that basically they would have it would be infinite had infinite information about what is there and could actually, you know, take care of make decisions based on statistics and the information that was fed in. And it's it's he was describing artificial intelligence back then in 1983. Now, he was a science fiction writer and those guys tend to think outside the box, but I mean I see AI now and I'm going like, "Hubbard was talking about this in '83."

[00:55:45]>> But if you say science fiction is science of the future.

[00:55:49]>> Yeah.

[00:55:50]>> You see, you can be sarcastic about, you know, Hubbard is a science fiction writer. Okay.

[00:55:58]What Jules Verne wrote, you know, in his time was total [ __ ] for his time.

[00:56:05]>> Yeah. But >> inexistent.

[00:56:08]You see?

[00:56:09]But we need people with vision.

[00:56:13]You see, we need people that can crack the paradigm.

[00:56:17]The existing paradigm makes us be whatever we are, which is humanoid that knows a little bit. You see, we know a little bit. Now, we are trying to learn more. Now, we can mention AI, we can compare more data, more information, more of this, more of that, but it's always you taking the decision. It's only It's only you that can have a vision in the future or in the past.

[00:56:47]And I think that the each vision of the past, that's a very big difference between any other philosophy and religion.

[00:56:57]And there is a missing step. You see?

[00:57:01]In Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever you want.

[00:57:05]Um Every great mystic movement or study, they try to give you, you know, the freedom.

[00:57:18]>> Yeah.

[00:57:19]>> I mean, there there is a step missing, which is why are we here?

[00:57:27]>> And where are we going?

[00:57:29]>> So, and they enter into a lot of sophisticated situation.

[00:57:36]>> Yeah.

[00:57:37]>> I can tell you I I wrote seven books which are not Scientology but are paradigm of why we are here and what we are doing here.

[00:57:48]>> Okay.

[00:57:50]>> You can you can you can call it science fiction. I call it a new vision, a new paradigm.

[00:57:57]Where of course my study in Scientology helped me out from there. They made me understand what could be there.

[00:58:06]I take the conclusion with these and also other mentions that this is a prison planet.

[00:58:15]Okay, so if this is a prison planet, somebody has to taken advantage of this being a prison, okay?

[00:58:23]So what I develop is a whole theory it's a theory of course. It's a I don't have any proof.

[00:58:30]I I cannot call our you know the people that put us in prison but you can have a vision you can put something there to analyze and see if it can break the existing paradigm.

[00:58:45]The existing paradigm is that we are flesh born out of flesh Darwinian development.

[00:58:56]Also that doesn't work. If you look into it very much it's very it's a different story.

[00:59:02]And what I owe to Albert is breaking opening up the road, you see?

[00:59:10]But then you have to put your feet on the ground and say wait, what do I do with all this?

[00:59:15]>> Yeah.

[00:59:16]>> Am I free? No, I'm not free.

[00:59:20]Spiritually I I understood more but not I'm not free.

[00:59:24]>> Yeah, you know talk about science fiction is is not a coincidence that Elon Musk is a trillionaire already. You know what I mean? He's looking towards the future. I mean, he's thinking big, you know? Hubbard used to say, "Think big. Think outside the box." You know what I mean? And imagine what is possible, not worry about what's happening now. You know what I mean?

[00:59:45]>> Of course, but you are you you are made, you know, you are given these eye eye shutter.

[00:59:51]>> Yeah.

[00:59:51]>> You you look there. Look there. You have you are given problem.

[00:59:56]But this is only a a situation that develops because it's not because of Trump, it's not because of Putin, it's not because of Those are just product of this situation. Because this is a melting pot or whatever you call it. You see what I mean?

[01:00:16]But one should ask himself why.

[01:00:19]If you start asking why, then maybe you get the wrong answer.

[01:00:24]But the least you try. And I think that what we did with following Scientology in the beginning was trying to get out of something that we didn't fully like.

[01:00:39]>> Yeah, and and to me I was a teenager at the time, but it answered a lot of questions in terms of where the direction was. You know what I mean? And who I really was and who really is God or is there a God, you know what I mean?

[01:00:51]And you know, just in terms of just you know, why are we here? Who created us?

[01:00:56]Did somebody create us or not? You know what I mean? It's like to me it makes no sense that people go like, "Oh, no, you're just you're going to live. This body's going to die and that's it. You know, you're done." You know what I mean? That didn't never make sense to me. And Scientology answered that question for me, you know?

[01:01:09]>> No, no, that's And also what what other thing I want to mention I'm just saying my my own uh >> Yeah.

[01:01:17]>> my own things.

[01:01:19]But there is one one thing that Hubbard mentions. You know, in the beginning he says in Dianetics it's a survival, you know, the drive, the urge to survive, the dynamics.

[01:01:31]Okay, this is what But, you know, we have no urge to survive because we don't survive. We are eternal, we are spiritual beings, we don't die.

[01:01:42]So, we don't need to survive.

[01:01:44]So, it when he developed Scientology, he transferred that to create.

[01:01:52]So, you have an urge to create. And whoever is trying to suppress or tried or did suppress your urge to create because this is the only thing we do >> Yeah.

[01:02:07]>> has been the persons that really made us what we are now. And going back to Miscavige, if you look at what he has done what he is doing now, we wanted to create for us and other people a better life.

[01:02:28]>> Right.

[01:02:30]>> In an easy way, easy.

[01:02:33]He puts there, you have to be rich, you have to go for the money. Wait a minute, in the book I write it, you know, that he asked me when I was a designer, you know, and I was dressing you, you have to become the biggest designer in the world, bigger than Armani. You have to drive a Ferrari, have private jets, you should become a millionaire. Who gives a [ __ ] You see what I mean?

[01:02:57]>> Yeah.

[01:02:58]>> Okay, I can do that if I set that as a goal in life.

[01:03:04]>> Well, that's funny cuz that that says a lot about Miscavige because that's that's an egocentric me me me viewpoint, not we need to handle and help other people. I mean, my I got involved and the reason I signed a billion-year contract is not because of me or what I wanted to do, it was cuz of what I who I wanted to help, you know?

[01:03:23]>> That's the way I found myself in a position which I I gathered a lot of influence because becoming a designer and my company was doing great, I gathered a lot of influence.

[01:03:35]And my idea was, okay, I can use this influence to help other people, you know, to make other people know about Scientology.

[01:03:44]But then is you were that you were bringing to the orgs they were immediately, you know, they >> [laughter] >> Where are they going, you know? Where am I bringing them, you know, in the house of wolves. You see what I mean?

[01:04:00]>> Yeah.

[01:04:01]>> That's the >> No, that's all I got it.

[01:04:04]Well, I think >> definitely be possible.

[01:04:11]>> Well, Claudio, I want to thank you for being here. As we've had a It's been an excellent discussion, and I just wanted to tell everybody promote your book, David Miscavige, the Scientology leader in the shadow, written by Claudio and his wife Renata, and there they are there. And this book is available on Amazon. You can order it. It's paperback, and uh you can order it on Amazon in English, Italian, and German soon, right?

[01:04:38]And and what formats are there?

[01:04:40]Obviously the paperback, but then you also got which other formats?

[01:04:44]>> Also the digital, so you can read it on Kindle.

[01:04:48]Kindle, yeah.

[01:04:49]Also the hard hard cover, you know.

[01:04:54]>> Okay.

[01:04:55]Anyway, so you can order that there. Also, I highly recommend Renata's other book here, and uh this is I can't read it cuz it's so small. My eyes aren't so good.

[01:05:05]>> Prisoner of freedom, my 36 years in the Scientology cult.

[01:05:11]This basically is a different It's the story of our lives.

[01:05:16]>> It's an amazing story, too. It really is. I I don't have time to ask you now, but I was I always was fascinated by you left the Sea Org and you had kids to take care of and you had no business, no nothing and she starts a knitting shop doing knitting and stuff and it turns into this global design clothing design business. It's an amazing story.

[01:05:38]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, and before later than that I was a fashion model. She was earning like a thousand dollar a day and she signed a Sea Org contract.

[01:05:48]Going from 1,000 a day to 20 thousand lira a week, 20 dollars a week.

[01:05:55]>> I It is an amazing story and she of course she she really, you know, she really believed in and uh you know, she's a wonderful person. Uh anyway, I love love the um that story. I really enjoyed reading that book, too. So, anyway, both of those books are available on Amazon. So, order your copies there and um I I know you're going to enjoy them, particularly the one on David Miscavige that they have out there. It And it's a great reference so that we've got it. So, anytime you want to answer or look something up about Miscavige, you can find it all there and it's all footnoted and uh you know, it it's a really really well researched and well written. So, I wanted to thank uh Claudio for coming here. Uh just everybody at The Other Thing I wanted to ask you, if you haven't already, please subscribe to our channel, hit that like button and hit that notification button. That way you know whenever we have new videos coming out. It helps us. If you have any questions or comments about what we talked about here, please go down below and write the questions, write the comments and I will answer them and and uh we look forward to your input on this. If you'd like to support our channel, there's minor expenses involved, but it definitely helps out.

[01:06:59]You can buy us a coffee. There's a link in the video description down below and it's just a way to donate some money to help us uh offset any uh expenses or anything like that. And the other thing I wanted to mention too briefly, Janice and I talked about this. Listen, I'm reaching out to any under the radar former Scientologists or Sea Org members. If you want to reach out to us, you can do that. Please do. You can reconnect with us and old friends, and you don't have to come on our channel.

[01:07:26]Just reach out. You can reach out to Janice at this is her email address, [email protected].

[01:07:32]We would love to hear from you. We've We've had several people contact us over the last several months that have been watching our shows, and it's a great way to reconnect with people if you you know, if you haven't really found the people that used to work with or used to be involved in Scientology. So, reach out to us if you'd like to, and if you don't have to come on the channel. We're just looking forward to hearing from y'all.

[01:07:54]Anyway, Claudio, have you got anything else you'd like to say here before we end the show?

[01:07:58]>> No, really. Thank you very much for having me here and letting me talk about these people we all will be more happy without.

[01:08:08]>> Yeah, and thank you for writing the book. It's a excellent book, and thank you for all that you're doing, you know, cuz you've done a lot and as I know it's really appreciated. It's going to be around for a long time, what you're doing.

[01:08:20]>> Thank you. Thank you for what you do.

[01:08:22]Thank you.

[01:08:22]>> Okay.

[01:08:23]Until next time everybody, bye-bye.

[01:08:24]We'll see you.

[01:08:35]>> [music]