South African correctional facilities must ensure that detained persons maintain fundamental constitutional rights including adequate accommodation, sanitation, lighting, and access to medical treatment, as mandated by Section 35(2)(e) of the Constitution and Section 7 of the Correctional Services Act, which guarantee conditions of detention consistent with human dignity regardless of the security classification of the facility.
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Senzo Meyiwa Trial: Ityala lokubulawa kuka Senzo Meyiwa | 21 July 2026
Added:Yeah.
>> Yes, mister.
>> As the court pleases, my lord, we confirm our appearance on behalf of the state. My lord, I notice that accuse number two is not before court as yet.
Is he in court or he's not in court?
>> He's not in court.
>> So he hasn't come to court.
>> So my lord, >> he's not arrived, my lord.
>> And I don't see members of the investigating team.
>> I I I'm informed, my lord, that he's on his way.
>> The person who's bringing him is not here.
>> No, my lord.
and commissioner is here also my I can confirm commissioner is before >> okay just ask if he he came with the rules I just forgot to mention it this correctional services rules the book.
Hey Okay. Are we all together now?
>> Number two is now before courts.
>> Okay.
confirm our appearance on behalf of the state court.
>> I am confirming my appearance on behalf of Mr. and Mr. >> Mub this is the court my lord I still confirm my appearance on behalf of accuse number four Mr. Matisa, thank you.
>> Yeah, Mr. Nissi, can you start about what we are about today?
The radio scientist has has complaints. against the the head of the prisons of the prison.
That is so my that was what was raised yesterday but then the court took the matter further by instructing that Mr. Ker should aade himself today and I've seen him here.
>> Yeah, quite but he doesn't know what we said what was said yesterday.
So he must hear exactly what you said.
through the instructions you received from your client and then >> as it is the court my lord I think I think they have been briefed about what happened at court because >> before I could >> you can we start please can we start like we started yesterday because I see Mr. as it is the court must hear he must hear it for himself.
>> Yes. I may I just before I repeat what I've said yesterday in the leave of court indicate that >> there's a report that has been prepared by what appears to be a correctional services legal officer. I haven't gone through the report as yet because I only became aware of it 5 minutes before I could leave the office. I just printed it. I did not go through it. So I don't know whether this report serves to address the issues that have been raised yesterday or is talking about something else.
>> Who wrote the report? Sorry. Who wrote the report?
>> Um I think it's it's a I don't know whether the entire of the report it's it's it's been prepared by I think it's Miss Nessa Mari. I think is a lady.
>> Miss Miss Nessa Mari.
>> Who is it?
>> Nessa Mari. She's a legal manager legal services at Koshimuru.
>> How does it start that letter address to whom?
>> It says confidential.
It says report to the area commissioner regarding complaints raised in court by inmates appearing in the senior meta trial the second management area region. And then it's a it's a it's it goes on and on.
It's talks about case studies my but as I'm saying um I don't know what the content of this report is my lord. So but >> the head of the president is is are you aware of it sir they say there's a report I just heard now about the report.
>> I'm aware about the report. It's addressed to whom?
>> This address?
>> To to you?
>> Yes. After my instruction.
>> Oh, I see.
>> To you. So, you're going to read it?
>> I'm going to talk to not talk to >> talk to it. So, you don't want Mr. Nissi to repeat what he said in court?
just for to check whether I'm relevant to because what I prepared was the information I received from so if he can repeat so that I can check whe >> and you don't have an objection to Mr. Nissi saying it in open court >> saying >> what he said yesterday >> I don't have a problem just >> yeah fine >> okay so the the report as you say reports about what allegedly happened yesterday was prepared yesterday was called by >> Yeah.
>> about what was presented in court.
>> Right. Fine.
>> Okay.
>> And as a result of that, the court there are stakeholders within our facility to be able to give me proper information.
I can present because I was invited to my >> Yes. Yes.
>> Mr. M. Are you available to tell us your instructions concerning yesterday?
My lord, a case look at the report after the purpose has been outlined in the background. Um, I think it also mentions allegations of solitary confinement, which is a point that was raised yesterday. Um, it there's a there's a paragraph that deals with lack of warm or hot water.
Um there's a paragraph that addresses access to self to telephones and there is also a paragraph that deals with access to banking services. I think this lead to >> how many pages is that report?
>> Excuse me.
>> How many pages?
>> It it has got I think when I printed it it appear as if it had 21 pages. There are anx attached to the report as well.
21 pages all in all.
However, I'm noting my lord, we without saying anything more to it, the fact that the ablution system has not been included in the report, the toilet system, the uplifting system, I think it's a point that was missed. I don't know if that point is there in other pages as well but I look at it it misses that point my so in essence I think the report that Mr. because I got from advocate Baloi except for what I've said except for the abolition point probably it covers all those points which have been raised my lord I don't know whether it does that sassingly because um for instance under hot water we've got the issue that this has been going on for a very long time and and and and lights as well have not been mentioned here. The ablution pro the the the the toilet system that is it's not functioning properly is also not being mentioned here mad. So the the the the I think the best thing is just to repeat what I the instruction that I got from Mr. yesterday that's what I was suggesting so that anything >> which is not covered in that report >> yes >> you can note it >> as it is the court mad >> is that okay to proceed that way Mr. >> okay thanks yeah okay let's hear Mr then >> in the process I will request a for Mr to remind me certain of the items because No problem.
>> As as it is a >> problem.
Good.
as it is the court. My lord, thank you for indulgence >> indeed my lord. Um he mentioned um first points about the toilet wherein he said that the ablution system is not working properly. In other words, he's not flushing. So he will go to the toilet to leave himself and yesterday I used the term yesterday's food and the waste will remain there for quite some time and because of the fact that he's staying in what is called a condemn cell. It's a it's a that which I referred to as a as as a solitary confinement. It's a very restricted area. I don't know how big that area is, but he says it's a very small area. Um, by virtue of the fact that the toilet are not working. So, he he's got to live in an inhuman condition. I I can imagine staying in a toilet that is not flushing each time you go relieve yourself there. Then there's there's there's you've got to stay with whatever that you wanted to take out of your body, but now stay with it physically. My lord, I don't know whether that is human, but from where I'm standing, it's a gross violation of human integrity, my lord, but that's the first point relating to the toilets. And then then lights, he says in that very same place that is calling condemned cell that I referred to as a solitary confinement place, he says there are no lights. It's it's it's just dark from morning to sunset. from sun sunset to sunrise. It's it's a 24-hour thing that affects the fact that he can't read. There's no radio. There's no nothing. My lord, and the the the effects of there being no lights are so enormous that he he he has been tortured, my lord. He says he He's just a moving corpse. I mean to use his words, he's just a moving corpse because he can't even concentrate even here at court when he's supposed to be applying his minds to what is happening here at court. My lord, water h this is hot water.
Um he says this problem and this is what we spoke about yesterday and this was also confirmed by Mr. who is it now.
It was confirmed by Mr. Penu that the issue of cold water has been there for some time because the system there is broken or whatever that is happening with the system or not. But importantly Mr. said when inmates do not come to court or when prisoners do not come to court they they are using cold water to bath they only have a limited access to hot water when they come to court and then I asked him Mr. Why are you not allowing people to continue using hot water even when they do not come to court? I think he was in 60s and 70s. I can't remember what was his answer is. But the point that I'm trying to bring the point that I'm bring to to court, Malot is that this is not just a speculative hypothesis from Mr. Cya. This was confirmed confirmed by a member from Koshimuru Correctional Service was Mr. Kenu who said that inmates are using cold water when they do not come to court. Well, he tried to justify it by saying that this is not an exceptional case to Mr. Subia.
So, it's everybody that is using um cold water. He even considered that that is inhuman, very inhuman actually to specifically use his words. He said that was very inhuman, a degrading way of treating people that are supposed to be enjoying certain rights as human being. He considered that indeed this is very inhuman.
However, he said the system is being worked upon so that it gets corrected. But when it has not been corrected, there won't be any alternative. They just have to continue using cold water.
What does that do to Mr. Cyot when he he is supposed to come and attend a trial of such a magnitude?
The other time when we deal with this point, he was actually sick.
He he he had flu. So I'm just wondering and this is what I brought to the attention of the court my lord that I'm just wondering if in the circumstances that have been considered by Mr. Kleenu would that not be a tantamount to him having an unfair trial if the trial were to proceed in the circumstances that were actually sketched out by Mr. I don't understand that.
>> I I I don't know.
>> Having an unfair trial >> that is having an unfair trial.
>> In the in the in the broader analysis of the concessions that were made by Mr. Would it not be argued that certain quarters that Mr. Cy did not enjoy a fair trial?
>> Thank you. That's what I'm I don't know if >> sorry finish first >> then you'll interpret.
>> All right.
>> Thank you my lord. Um that was just but the issue relating to the hard water and this I think was confirmed by Mr. My pisa was accused number four but this council will come and and and and ratify what I'm saying if they if there's a need my lord and accuse number five as well council will come and rectify that if there's a need also informed the court through me yesterday that the telephones were not working but he's informing me now that apparently yesterday when they went back to the prison he found out that The telephone has been fixed but before he made that complaint yesterday they've not been working such that he he would have had no opportunity or the the the leverage to call his family etc etc etc. So basically that is the issue that was brought to the attention of the court yesterday which necessitated the court requesting that Mr. Mr. um because I should come as a head of the prison Ken region as as the area manager Ken region to come and shed light on what the on what Mr. Cilla has raised as concerns which are very objective concern my lord thank you briefly that is what happened yesterday it's just a summation of what happened yesterday >> anything you want to add Mr. Madam speak as it pleases the court. Malot uh whilst I agree with Mr. Miy that the issues that are raised and that are addressed in this report. They are universal to all the accused persons before court.
Although Mr. Andanzi in particular Meot is not in the CX unit. He is housed in the remand detainist facility at the center.
However, the challenges that are mentioned here, I see throughout the report when I caserally look at it that they are universal. The access to water hotel and some measures are mentioned that kettles are used uh but it's it's not for all of them a lot uh if I may say but what I also raised on behalf of Mr. and I see it's addressed at paragraph six of the report which pertains to access to banking services malot I see that they say absa was contacted to assist specifically Mr. Danzi and Mr. I think Mr. according to the report was assisted but Mr. Santanzi they say according to the report refused to be assisted by ABSA and I'll address that my lot during this that's what the report says >> oh it's Mr. Tan himself >> yes that that's what the report says they say Mr. Antazi refused >> refused to be assisted by the bank >> by ABSAB in particular >> fine >> but the issue is this my lord and it's further addressed to say Mr. said he wants to be assisted by Standard Bank or by Capit because you'll remember Malo throughout this trial especially when we were dealing with the bank records of these different banks Mr. Sorry ma'am different banks capek I thought it's a different bank standard bank I thought it's a different bank so we talk about three banks I've explained ABSA my lord according to them they say absa >> yeah absa >> mani personal they say he refused now I'm addressing on standard bank and capit because my lord mantanzi holds account with both standard bank and Capit uh bank. So he wanted Standard Bank to be activated so that the monies that I talked about the pension fund monies can be deposited in that account and use his sister as a beneficiary to receive those monies for the family and Capit because of this matter my lord Cap is frozen and it's addressed here and I'll tell the court an enab elaborate on that. At the beginning of the year, I wrote a letter to Capital Bank under my letter head with a powerful attorney signed by Mr. Antanzi affected by Mr. Tanzi in order to get assistance regarding that issue that rose in this court regarding the transactions between the 25 and 30th of October 2014.
And we got the response from Capit saying they can't deal with lawyers even if uh I've got a power of attorney. They want to speak to Mr. Andi directly. I made arrangements with Mr. Matala who's a correctional officers officer at Koshimuru and indeed Mr. Antanzi was contacted by an agent from Cape Town from Capit Bank who said to Mr. Anzi and some of these issues my lord they impinge on the current trial hence I'm not sure whether I should raise them but this is what transpired the agent told Mr. Dani in the presence of Mr. Mali that your account has been ceased by Absa because since your arrest there's been suspicious transactions on your account so I cannot assist you.
They only sent him a two-page uh bank statement that Matanti was told to give to me and he gave to me and they also gave me a number and I've wrote it down here to say phone this person on 0218094231 so that we can discuss the mess that is your account with Capit and when I phone this I've found this number numerous times it does not go on and the person that phone me unfortunately did not want to reveal his name. I also asked Mr. Matala Ederson who called in Tanzi because you verified that this is in Tanzi. He's detained in your center. So who called in Tanzi from Capit who left this Capit uh telephone numbers and gave us this bank statement. To date we don't know the identity of that person with regard to Standard Bank. Back in 2023, a sheriff of court attended his court and asked me privately in fact of Mr. Danzis that Standard Bank has asked to close Mr.'s bank account simply because he's an a suspect and an accused person in this matter whether or not he's guilty or not. It's not their issue. Then I said to the sheriff, we'll sign the the document, but I don't know what the legal effect of. I know of so many uh h sentenced prisoners, awaiting trial prisoners that they hold uh bank accounts with several banking institutions in South Africa. Why is Mr. Andi simply singled out for closure of his account simply because of this case money? We've never had any other response from standard bank in response to in respect to my response there too.
So we don't know whether that standard bank is still frozen. and hence he says I want assistance to activate that if it's closed I want a response that it is closed then I can open another account but simply to say he refused ABSA he was saying I've got an account with ABSA and Standard Bank and both are I'm not sure what's happening I don't want to use words that tomorrow I'm facing lawsuits from ABSA and and standard bank so that is the issue with respect to why he said I then approached Mr. or Mr. Masangi for them to assist me to to be taken to a bank which is my the bank where I hold an account which is standard bank to activate that account so that I can receive the money's money as the court process >> okay >> anything to add Mr. My my colleagues have uh conversed.
Yeah. They've conversed on on this aspect. But my emphasis on is on two issues. The issue of um >> cold water.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. My my client is saying that uh the status quo hasn't changed ever since.
Yeah. the issue of cold water and adequate adequate access to or restricted access to telephone uh calls. Those are the two >> okay >> those are the two aspect that I want to emphasize anything else so I advocate addresses the court my lord the instruction that I get from Mr. It's that it's it's incorrect to say he refused Absa assistance. Absa has never come to him. And he says the procedure at prison my lord if you need anything to be done for you. You write request a a a written request then it will be forwarded through protocol to the relevant prison officer that must assist you. He says he's been writing requests via Mr. Mala via Mr. H to to Mr. Ka or Masanga because he was told at the center that the people that can assist him to access the banking services are Mr. Masanga and Mr. Ka but he says there's a stoneholding because Mr. Ka says I don't receive your written h request yet he keeps on making those requests so he's requesting that today because Mr. Ka is here that Mr. Ka sees him respectfully. He requests to see Mr. Koa so that these issues can be addressed because he's not sure whether the issues of standard bank have been uh made aware to Mr. Ka. That's the court cases.
>> Yeah, I said that Mr. Mi forgot to tell us.
I told you I'm an old man but I keep things in my head. You didn't tell us meaning even ka that your client threatens not to attend any other court proceedings. He promised only to attend the cross pro the proceedings of yesterday because Mr. >> Ghuzi was called as according to him was called or testifying because of him. So that he said he will attend but after that he is not going to attend any am I correct. Am I quoting your time correctly?
>> He's either going to sit down because he's being detained unlawfully or not unlawfully but as a a detainee he's going to sit out his 18-year period without coming to court.
And after finishing that 18 year period maybe he'll think about coming back to court.
And mean in the meantime I don't know what happens to this court.
>> Let me put it in his p perspective because I I I well it skipped my mind h to mention it. Well I don't know if that is also in the domain of Mr. Ker to receive that information but now that the court has already mentioned it this is actually what he said. He said because of the conditions that are now happening where he is kept in what he refers to as this condemned cell that which I referred to as a solitary confinement place. He says because of those conditions which are having a negative effect on his psychology to come and pay full attention to what is happening here at court. He will request he's going to request not that he was threatening my lord. He was he would request this court that the proceedings in this trial that he be excused from attending the proceedings in the trial up until such >> Yes.
>> According to him >> I'm I'm I'm coming there.
>> Yeah. Fine. up until such time that he has served that period of 18 months, not years, 18 months where he will then have to go back to a normal cell situation and be like any other prisoner who will now enjoy all these other rights that other prisoners are having as sentenced people. a lot then then that would actually alleviate that psychological torture that he's going through which would then enable him to come and pay full attention to this court. My lord he he he he he never threatened that he would sit out there and not come to this court and say and then >> that's how I understood him anyway.
>> No, I'm putting it in a proper perspective. I'm correcting the court's understanding that he never said I will then decide to sit. He said >> that's what he said Mr. You want us to play the tape. I was listening attentively court. I'm just doing you a favor. In other words, coming to this court to listen to Mr. So and so giving evidence.
After that he says he's not participating. That's what he said and that's how I understood it. No problem.
until he has served whatever sentence 18 months or whatever then he'll decide thereafter in in the meantime I don't know this judge will be sitting where >> malot well in so far as how the court understood him there's nothing I can do about it because that's the understanding of the court which is not what he said >> so I can only take up to that extent my lord I there's nothing that I can do about how the court understood him thank you madam >> sir Mr. Ka do you want to read that report?
>> I will read that and also I will read the report talk to the report and also touch on the issues that which I have not covered.
>> So you want to do that now?
>> I think it will help.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Fine. I hear now you can you can commence.
>> Sorry.
Maybe before Mr. because a response if I can also just wrap up the the nature of a complaint regarding Mr. Enduli. It's still related to what he said yesterday but it's just few issues that I need to bring it to the attention of the court so that maybe Mr. Ka can be able to respond to them.
>> Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Thank you my as I've indicated that it's also on these two conditions the denial of uh uh access to cell phones and also the denial of warm water. He indicates myot Mr. told now that on the 2nd of July 2026 he asked for a permission to make a call and then he was informed that him and Mr. my pisa they are not allowed to make a call and then on the 6th of July he wrote a letter to the head of prison trying to address those issues with the head of prison however the head of prison did not come to him and then he's saying also me he has his own kley in the cells which he wanted to use and he was denied to use that ki and even says that it was taken away from him So that he cannot be able to boil water. Keley to boil water. K.
>> Oh, I see.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> He was also denied to use his private K now now that warm water were not a are not available in the facility.
>> Okay. And then he also indicates my lord that he has developed the sickness of the teeth to such an extent that his jaws are locked because of uh taking a cold bath and he is h he has been taken to the clinic inside the hospital and has been given uh the painkillers. So he is now on painkillers on daily basis and he says these painkillers they make him drowsy during the day in court and he can't survive without taking them. He has been provided by the doctor at the clinic within the facility my lord to use them.
M >> and then lastly my Lord he says the condition of yes they have been allowed they've been provided with the warm water when they on the days when they are coming to court but it's giving him a problem to use cold water one day and then also use warm water on the other day and then he says he develop sickness because of that.
What type of sickness?
>> That that is a flu my lord and that he can't he is unable to concentrate. He's saying these conditions my lord affects him mentally and psychologically which impacts him to concentrate during trial. thinking about these conditions that he is living under at the prison.
Thank you my lord. Those are my submissions.
Is there Mr. Ka? Is there a psychiatrist at your precinct?
We we don't have a a permanent psychiatrist but we pro such services when necessary but they also come once a week within our office.
>> Okay.
So if I say I got psychological problems I can get attention if I request attention from a psychiatrist.
Most definitely uh we we have permanent we have permanent psychologists >> within our facilities that can be able to attend to that and we also have permanent medical doctors that are working with us and we also have session doctors that are coming with us. So um the service of the psychrist can also be easily procured and in the absence of that if there's an emergency we can procure the services of our our neighbors office which is a strong throw away from us if it is very urgent one.
>> Okay.
Yeah. Fine. You may proceed then. You said you wanted to talk to the report as you as you put it. M let me also appreciate the opportunities given for us to be able to articulate our our challenges and my documents that my has requested information and so I don't have them now but requested somebody to make sure that >> sorry is it not possible for Mr. Ka to come forward because I see difficulty.
Thank you very much for a lot. Um I had also indicated that um we apologize for not uh possessing the documents because we are not aware that are going to be needed but they will be presented.
So in principle Malot I need to indicate that I'm the area commissioner of Koshim Muru II and um I am responsible for the six facilities uh within Koshi Muru which amongst them is CMax and Loca and Maximum Correctional Facility. Then the some of these offenders are in are incarcerated in >> sorry we omitted something sir sorry sorry we omitted something you did not take the oath sorry can you please state your full name and surname please for the record please >> okay my name is Emmanuel Ka >> uh do you have any objection in taking the oath >> no objection my lord >> do you prescribe the oath to be binding on your conscience >> I take it as binding my lord >> do you swear that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing else but the truth.
If so, raise your right hand and say, "So help me God."
>> So help me God.
>> Okay, please allow me the opportunity to interpret for them as well. Okay, we can start a fresh.
So as I was indicating my lord that out of the six the inmates are incarcerated in three different facilities from there Yes.
Before I go through the issue that has been raised, I need to indicate that the issue of uh the allegation of of uh ZMAX as a solitary confinement. I want to deny that it is not a a solitary confinement.
And um I also can report that we have a latest report that we receive from Jigsary.
Egypt >> which is the judicial inspectorate of correctional services which is also our watchdog IS compiled on the 30th of July 2025.
Owens July 2025 which indicates that it was compiled by by a a person from the office of the inspecting judge which also indicates that that uh report was a response to a complaint by the inmate Mala which also indicated that that facility is conducive to in-house people is Not a solitary confinement.
And I had also attached the extract of a annual report from the judicial respectctor rate 2022 2023.
2023 which also stipulates that inmates uh placed at CX should should also not be considered as segregation since the center has single cell accommodation which is considered normal for CMAX. So it says that facility is considered a normal facility that you can house people in there.
Sorry. So in other words, there was a complaint an investigation was conducted about whether CX it's a maximum as they call it. But the the the complaint is that it's a solitary solitary confinement confinement which the term that was used this morning saying is a condemned cell >> and then to there's no condemned self or solitary >> confined cell. Yes.
>> Yeah. Fine.
My lord, I want also to indicate that it is also normal in our facilities to have a single cell. In all other normal sentence sentence facilities and rehabilitation facilities, you will always have single cells for for the purpose of safety of inmates, for the purpose of inmates that are outside.
And my just to substantiate the difference and how C maps is different to the others. Caps is a facility where we are housing inmates that failed to behave in other facilities in the whole country and as a result they are brought to CMAX. It's either as a high-risk offender highprofile offender or a popular offender in that in that case for the purpose of the secure in incarceration.
So as a result of that my lord I want to indicate that um the the inmates that are here they are incarcerated at cx Because they were found to have cell phones which was a threat to a security.
And for them to access a cell phone can also be a threat to the witness that are participating in these cases. Can be a threat to all the role players that are participating in this trial.
Some to an extent that they extort money from civilians or the families of other inmates to can able to enrich themselves as well.
Sorry, sorry, just to interject. Are you alleging that there have been disciplinary measures concerning the conduct of the inmates? All of them.
If I if you if you take me there at simmit I have to be evaluated where to be placed in your complex of six or is it automatic? What what criteria in other words do you use?
>> There's um a various types of of various method in which we are admitting the offenders there.
For instance, if there's an offender that has escaped, >> the national commissioner instructs that we incarcerate that offender there. In that case, there will not be disciplinary actions.
as much as we are well aware that the national commission is responsible for the correctional services. He also delegates to the regional commissioner to grant such approval. And the other aspect is when an offender has been found with the cell phone or the offender has assaulted another offender or has transgressed then we write them to ask for the regional commissioner to grant approval.
Commissioner The transgressions are not limited to only cell phones. There is others.
So to respond to my lord's question whether we there is disciplinary actions. Yes my lord there is disciplinary actions that are taken there is records that we they follow disciplinary hearings for the transgressions that they committed uh while they incarcerated. So there is a case management committee that will um they will appear before the committee and the committee will hear their case and a sanction will be imposed. And I want also to put a disclaimer Malot that um we take note that in the disciplinary case of the that is officiated in the department CX does not is not been pronounced transfer to CX has not been pronounced as a sanction.
the sanctions they will come as h you are no longer going to be able to buy from the shop. You are no longer going to be allowed to phone your families.
Those are some of your your your privileges that will be taken. But CX is not part of the the sanctions that are given out of that hearing.
said taking away the visitation. Yeah.
Visit visitor from the shop. Yeah.
Sorry. And what about cell phones?
Deprivation of cell phones. There's a complaint that your staff is using the deprivation of cell phones as a disciplinary measure.
>> Malot needs to say self the tele cell telephones, not cell phones. Nah, they used the word cell phone. That's why I'm not saying telephones.
>> Cell can Mr. He used the word cell phone.
>> I heard him as well.
>> That's it. Yeah. Cell phone.
>> We can't argue about such a man. I think cell phone, telephone, it's a communication medal. Doesn't matter whether it's cell phone or whether it operates from the space as long as it can communicate from A to B. Do you use that device or devices as disciplinary measures against inmates? Mot cell phone is prohibited in the correctional center to be utilized by inmates, offenders as well as officials and officials that are utilizing the cell phones.
>> I I grant permission to them to utilize those cell phones and then we are currently encouraging even most of them not to have cell phones to use two-way radios in the centers.
And when it comes to telephones, we have public phones in our facilities that we utilize for the offenders to phone. And those are one of the privileges that as in when you are not behaving well the CMC will pronounce that as a sanction.
My lord, in closing this part of the solitary confinement, I want to assure my lord that since the inception of capac, we can attest to you that there is a a a a decline in incidents of that threat.
threatens our security because most of the offenders they know and even at my space at correctional services Koshi Muru H where an offender is found to have participated in illicit activities they know that they will go to CMax and those activities has reduced and I can also indicate that CMAX is one of the very few if I'm not wrong that there are only two other than Bongu that the entire department still has got hope that when you are incarcerated in CMAX at least there's there's control and you are grounded My lord, I want also to indicate that they cry about this caxle that is a solitary government. It's a ploy to can able to fight for their own freedom which they want to can able to do whatever they want. And uh I want to indicate that for now I'm very satisfied that I'm empowered to can able to have that facility within Koshimuru. And that is why at this point in time a lot you will realize that there's very very few incident that you will hear from Koshimuru because we have that facility and these offenders they also want to do as they wish and unfortunately at Cmax you are grounded you don't have a time to can able to do your things at your own time. So at least I want to leave it at that and move to the second issue if confinement.
And my lord, in conclusion, we need to differentiate between an an incarcerated person and a person that is free. And in their case, they're incarcerated within our facilities. and uh we will make sure that human dignity is respected and that is what is dictated by our own policy that says we should able to make sure that the inmates are incarcerated human. On that note I want to close this part of the the solitary confinement and with your permission move to the next point.
Any response Mr. Mr. and Mr. Mish after this any response or remark concerning the address given by Mr. definitely I I I have >> Thank you. I don't know >> has not finished.
>> He says he's closing the aspect of CX regarded as >> confinement.
>> That's what he says. He says after this he wants Am I correct quoting you correct?
>> You're correct my lord.
>> Thank you. I I I understand what is happening. Basically the court is saying we should try to segmentalize.
>> Yeah.
to have a segmentalized approach. He deals with this aspect and then if there is anything that we want to raise with him, we attend to it there and then there and then he goes to the other aspect after that and then if there's something we want to raise just like that.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Most certainly my lord. Um thank you Mr. Ka.
Let me hasten to mention that that term solitary confinement is not a term that has been used very loosely by the accused who raised a complaint against corre correctional services.
It's a term that actually comes from me or I have been using that term with an understanding that where a person has been sort of sentenced you know administratively because of some misdemeanor that he has done while he's serving a particular sentence then it gets taken to a place where he stays alone. The term solitary means alone.
Confinement means stay. You confined to stay alone in a particular place. is not a pagorative. I'm not using it in a pagorative way or in a in a in in an ugly way. It simply means you you I'm using it in the context of saying that you are staying alone in a particular place. Do you understand?
>> I understand my lord. Thank you, sir.
But I'm not using it in an ugly way.
Thank you. Now it is also understood that a person who has been convicted by a court get sentence to go and stay in prison for a particular period. Their rights are limited. There's there's there's no qual about that. Do you understand?
>> I do understand a lot.
In other words, they would not have they would not be allowed in prison to conduct themselves as if they're free people in the streets. That is also understandable.
Do you understand as well? I understand my lord. Thank you.
Thank you. But you made you've mentioned something very very very important that although a person is been administratively sentenced to the single cell. I will avoid using solitary confinement because I I think it's it doesn't go down well with you. I use the term solitary confinement. We have said although that is the situation that person still has got to be treated in a dignified way and consul correctional services is a proponent of the right to dignity not so did you say that >> my lord let me also uh uh correct One statement is made by Yes.
He says if the using the word of solitary confinement does not go well with me.
>> Okay.
>> Not with me as a person. I'm just representing the department with regards to the the the topic of solitary confinement.
>> Okay.
>> Two, there's no a sanction. I had indicated to my lord that that there is no a sanction imposed by our disciplinary proceedings to sentence a person to go to c. Yes. There's no such a sanction.
>> Yes. So you go to c because we've got the powers to place the offender where we want the offender to be. Yes.
That is well understood. Um what I'm saying is you have also made mention of a very solid and important fact that whether the person is now in the single cell he needs to be treated with uh dignity. That's what you said next.
>> Correct my lord. That is guided by our correctional services at section 10 which reads as follows. Says uh everyone has inherent in inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.
as well as section 12 1D and E which also stipulates that everyone has the right to freedom from torture and from cruel and human and inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment.
Yes.
12.
Going further with that, we will can also refer to section 352E which stipulates that every detained person has the right to conditions of detentions that are consistent with human dignity including adequate accommodation, nutrition, uh reading material and medical treatment. in that saying if I as the area commissioner together with my subordinates we don't conform to that we are contravening our own act and as a result of that we are very cautious in the execution of our duties. Thank you.
Thank you sir. Those are basically constitutional imperatives. Those are derivatives of what from the constitution or so. In other words, that legislation is coined on what the constitution says. Not sure or or those those those act or that act that is derived from the constitution.
Correct my lord. Thank you.
>> Right. Now for instance without having to waste this court time what what rights are crew to those people who have been taken to the single cells for inance what what rights which you think let me put it this way what rights would be consent with human dignity Do those people that are staying in solitary I mean in the same cells have >> my lot like I had already indicated that um there's various reasons for us to incarcerate inmates in single cells >> others they are going to the single cells because they requested to be there for their safety others for studies >> and those that are taken to CMEX they taken because we as the department has taken a decision to place them to place them there. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Co. What I'm saying is what are the basic rights? Basic rights.
a right that cannot or that should not be taken away from that person when it gets taken to the to the single cells no matter the circumstances but you say you know we can do whatever that we want to do with this person is in our control but this is a right that we shouldn't take away from him what are those rights >> my lord those right you will find them in section seven of our correctional services act uh which among of them is the the floor space, the ventilation, the lighting, the heating, the sanitation and the health requirement.
And I can confirm that we confirmed to all those.
>> No, wait. Mr. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Wait, wait, wait. I'm I'm I'm now leading the show. Do you understand? If I want you to explain that that's cross- examination. Understand? We are now under oath. I am cross-examining you.
You see if I say to you Mr. Ker can you please explain this then you can explain. You see but this is time for me to ask you questions because we have said we have finished. Do you understand?
So this is time for me to answer ask you questions and you must ask my you must answer my question and if I feel I'm not really understanding what you're saying I'll request you to explain. Do you understand? You don't take the show away from me >> my lord. Unfortunately, >> do you understand >> my lord? I unfortunately I I am here to respond to every >> yes >> legal question and I I must able to elaborate because I came here to can able to assist this court with the challenges.
>> Okay. Elaborate Mr. Ker elaborate. If I'm asked a question and I realize that this is my field and I'm given the opportunity today to express the work of correctional services and I have passion in that. So my lord I will go deeper and make sure that explain so that I educate everyone that does not understand and you will pardon me that I'm stealing the show but I have got to elaborate so that I must not invite other questions unnecessary to help this court and not become an evasive witness.
So that's that's what I want and >> elaborate Mr. Ka there no need to further explain. And I say you can elaborate >> because at first you asked me questions.
I went abroad and stipulated the sections. You didn't have a problem with that. Now I want also to >> Mr. I've said continue to elaborate.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. That which what you want to elaborate. So my lord, I want to indicate that um the the rights of inmates are limited >> by the incarceration of it. One of them is the right to freedom because once you are sentenced and I'm instructed by the court to impose the the sentence that means I must take away the right of your freedom from being outside to be inside the facility and once you are in the in the facility correctional center in a normal correctional once you infringe or you commit an offense we take another right from you from being in local or central we take you to C max. So that will limit your your your movement or your freedom out of that space.
Are you done elaborating Mr. >> Thank you Mr. Co? You have just read a section just a few minutes ago. that section that I've even said to you that it derates you from the constitution and then you said yes you have read amongst others that and in fact that was subsequent to the question that I've asked as to what are the basic right that you can't take away from a person that has been put to a solitary I mean to a single cell we have read amongst others that you can't take away from that person a right to a proper toilet system you can't take take away from that person a right to light.
You can't take away from that person a a right to heat. You can't take away from that person a right to a space. You can't take away from that person a right I just forget this other right that you have mentioned you see but you have said yourself and you have said you are proponent you comply with those directives in terms of that act there's a complaint before court which necessitated you to come here Mr. say the ablution system, the toilet system, the not working has got to be content with staying with yesterday's food. It means the the the the waste that has taken out of his body. He's got to stay with that for days on end because the system is not working in the cell where he's staying.
There's a complaint before court here that they should be using cold water and you've just read something that says the right to heat cannot be taken away from them.
Mr. has been complaining that he has to contend with darkness for hours on end and you have said to this court in terms of that act that we have read here that no matter what it doesn't matter whether that person is the president of the country that right you can't take away from him a right to light or a right to lightness but there's a complaint before What? Do you understand >> my >> I say do you understand yes or no because I'm not done with what I want to ask you >> my lord I >> do you understand >> I I want to to respond and uh >> no I'm saying then respond do you understand yes or no >> we behave like adults everything >> I'm an adult I'm an adult I don't know who's talking that's a problem >> yeah but I'm saying to him do you understand Mr. And then you say, "No, I want to respond."
>> Let the witness say whatever he wants to say. He's here to >> Okay. Say whatever that you want to say.
Cause my I want us to I don't want to to to misdirect the court.
The court has asked me to respond and I had take an effort to break down the issues in segments. I was dealing with the issue of solitary confinement which the expectation is that the question that I'm uh the the cross examination that will be directed to me will be around the solitary confinement the issue of the ablutions and I had prepared a specific section that will cover so I I will request the the lord your protection that we confine ourselves to the issue of solitary confinement like you directed that let's deal with collal solitary confinement Mr. Nissi is now going to the ablution facility and the space and I have covered those things in the report that I have and I'm ready to deal with the ablution and sanitation issues in the part where I'm going to deal with. So at this point in time I'm ready to deal with the issue of solitary confinement and then and close it and go to the others.
Maybe 14 minutes.
>> 15 minutes. Okay.
>> 15 minutes.
Yes.
We are still at the open. Yes.
You are Do you want your report?
>> I have it.
>> Oh, okay.
Thank you, Mr. Proa. and welcome back again Mr. Kosa. I realized that you wanted to proceed to another aspect but the question that I was asking you that I asked you they all relate to the solitary confinement thing you see.
So there's nothing that I've asked you which is beyond solitary confinement. Do you understand?
I understand my lot.
>> Thank you.
And maybe just to clear up the usage of the term solitary confinement, I am reminded that um during the course of last year, there was an application that was brought by accuse number three in this case for having been kept in solitary confinement for 3 years, 11 months. And there was a court order and that was an imposed application but the decision went against Koshimuru Correctional Service.
Throughout the judgment the court refers to the place where he was kept as a solitary confinement not as a single cell as a solitary confinement. I just wanted to bring that to your attention that the usage of the term solitary confinement as I'm using it. It has also been used by this court not this courtroom but by this court northing high court in the matter of nas minister of correctional services and others. I just wanted to hear that.
Thank you. But let's proceed now.
Mr. Kosa, you you you you I want to say the following. When Mr. Tvesa was standing in the very same place where you were standing there, he admitted that what was happening to Mr. and the others who were not part of the complaint that Mr. Sia brought to court here constituted inhuman indignity deprivation of hot water. Mr. PZA considered that that constituted human indignity would you also do would you also consider um that what is happening to him deprivation of hot water amounts to deprivation. I mean amounts to human indignity.
I am saying would you also readily concede or not or would you agree with Mr. KBZA as he was standing with you there that what Mr. severe complained about it's something that was happening at Koshimuru prison and that constituted human indignity.
Would you agree with him?
I I don't I I take it he wants to refer to Mr. We don't have tabza and I will as I already indicated that uh I I I will not concede I I deny the fact that the those those rights has been infringed.
I deny that.
Are you done explaining?
>> I'm done my >> Thank you.
You know what we have just done now?
We have directly said to Mr. Pravesa, Mr. Prevesa, you are standing there and telling this court lies because that does not happen. That's what you have just said. You have said to him, you page that yourself to Mr. Cravesa.
>> My lord, >> was he lying?
>> My lord, for record purposes, Mr. Muni should refrain calling Mr. Cvesa because I don't have Mr. Kz. I had just corrected him now that I have Mr. Kenu. But uh in response to that I I I did not have Mr. Keno's version but I I I I I report on what I know and what I understand on those rights that he alleges that they are infringed. So I still deny but I want also to distance myself from the the assertion that is made to me that uh I'm saying Mr. is lying before the court and what what so I deny that assertion and I want to distance myself from that unconditionally Mr. Mr. Now we still in the solitary confinement situation. Are you saying are you saying that Mr. is getting hot water every day.
Yes, I'm saying my lord, he's getting hot water every day. Thank you.
>> But not from not from not from from the shower direct. But we I had also indicated that he gets hot water from the shower. He got hot water from the kettle. He gets hot water from our tabs as well. So there is there is provision of hot water. But what is very clear is that he is not denied to hold water.
It's just that during those days at some stage there's no for that period there's no water but there is improvises that were making just like any other citizen of South Africa that you will wake up in the morning there's no water and interventions will erupt and measures will be put in place and in this case I'm confidently saying that because I personally as the area commissioner of Mukoshi Mamuru I worked very hard to make sure that the the the rights of these inmates are not influential and they are disubstantiated by documents that I had attached. Hence, I was saying h I want to refrain from talking to the issues of home water because I want to articulate myself deeply and clearly on those aspects uh if if I'm given an opportunity uh to deal with that. So the issue of solitary confinement I think I have done my level best to deal with that. uh and uh the other questions that advocate is asking me they they they talk too much to the home water devolution facility and I'm ready to deal with that specific issue.
>> Yeah. Okay. Let's hear >> Mr. Don't rush. Don't rush.
Rush is in Russia in South Africa. We're taking it easy. Let me tell you what Mr. PBZA said and Mr. say and that is on record and and and I can tell you that that is on record. He said look and I've just asked you are you saying that Mr. C is getting water every day and then you said yes.
Mr. Kenu said you know what we only give them water when they come to court. If they don't come to court, they are using cold water. And even so, that cold water is cold water that they are preparing from kettles. But when they don't come to court, they're not entitled to cold water. I mean to to to hold water. That is on record. And you are saying now today, Mr. Ca is getting water every day.
That's totally against what Mr. Beza, Mr. said. I think you're starting from different perspectives.
That's why as I'm listening to you, you say there is a problem of order in South Africa. In other words, you are you saying that in South African jails to be specific?
Not not all of them. Not all of them my lord.
>> Yeah. What?
>> But the like in our case there's a there's a problem of water which we are giving attention and I think also my lord I want my response uh and I want to put it on record.
>> My response is based on the question that is been posed to me. Does the inmate get home water? I see this every day because there's warm water every day. The warm water can come from the kettle, home water can come from the tap. The warm water can come from the shower. So his question is that baby that he was supposed to ask me is that he does get warm water from the shower every day then that can I can able to say no uh because of the glitches that we having. But your first question was general question and I responded to that. Thank you.
My lord to respond to your question whether there is a problem of water in South Africa. Yes, there is water problem in South Africa, but that water issue does not affect us and it's not the cause of that. In this case, there's glitches that I will elaborate that I will elaborate in Mr. Mr. Ka I don't take it personal.
You have mentioned at the beginning when I say Mr. Kosa you are not here in your personal capacity. You here as a representative of of the department not so so don't take it personal but that is exactly what Mr. Mr. said furthermore, Mr. Mr. Mr. Cia said lights in that solitary confinement space which you would want to refer as a as a single cell. Lights are not working. When were you lasted in his cell just to confirm if lights are working or not?
When were you there?
My lord, um I want to ask again your protection that um I am here.
>> Yes.
>> To assist the court on various aspects that I tabled. uh like now we moving from the ablution facility we go into the alliance I will able to deal with those things I have that energy to can able to deal with those things uh and pre provide the information as detailed as I can and hence I I I I don't want to be an evasive witness that should reflect as if I don't know my story so I want to request the the the my lord that um I presented the issue of solitary confinement and you opened that I could able to get questions around what I presented. I had not presented anything about abolution facility and that's how I understand the cross examination. So my request is that I I be offered an opportunity to deal with lights to deal with ablution facilities in detail. I will cover that.
You see, Mr. Because your problem is that you want things to be done your way and that ain't going to happen because the reason why you here is because of the complaint that Mr. Cilla raised. Mr. Cilla is staying in a solitary confinement. He's not staying here there, everywhere. He's in a solitary confinement.
Do you understand? So you're not here to talk about other issues that are happening elsewhere but not in the solitary confinement. Mr. severe race issues relating to the solitary confinement and I'm going to ask you questions relating to where he stays which is a solitary confinement. I can see Mr. Kaer and with due respect that you're failing to account I've got nothing further to ask from you my lord. uh I I I I deny the fact that I'm failing to account and I think the accountability reflects on the report that is presented which I take ownership and take responsibility. So I I am here because I prioritize this court and I prioritize that I should able to come and give clarity as possible as I can and I'm ready to do that. So I for me I take full accountability and uh I will take a stand and uh take ownership and indicate whatever position I have uh and also put a proper perspective the questions that I'm asked when last was I in the cell of uh I'm the area commissioner responsible for 8,300 plus offenders.
us. It will be killing for me and a torture to me to go to every offender.
But I know for a fact that h there's the problems and the problems I I I have appointed officials under me that must look at those problems and when they are they can't resolve those problems. They escalate the matters to me. I I go to the offenders.
The policy says I must visit the prison once a month, but I do that more than once. So I I'm in a better position to be able to account.
>> Okay. Because you're saying you you've prepared a report. Yes.
>> The the second aspect that I want to deal with my lot is the the the lack of hold water.
My lord, we we don't deny that um at some stages uh we we we we had water, we did not have a problem and in my report I had indicated as well that this water problem is not the fact that we were ignoring it and we're not giving it attention.
So we we had engaged like in our case in government spheres after realizing this problem Zax was renovated And it was was renovated from 2016 up until 2018 from 2014. 2016 to 2018 2018 >> and as it was renovated later it was opened in 2020 and they installed the solar panels to supply water from that they didn't use.
So those solars because of the usage they could not last long. So and they are the ones that are causing a problem for us. Last time when we were here we attended to the problem.
So my lord, we we fix that and we spend about uh 49,441 >> 49,4100,000 Unfortunately, it was a temporary solution that did not last long.
So after that, I registered the matter with our facilities. They came and assess and I had instructed that we remove the solars and replace them with the the normal gizers and we sought the the quotations from the suppliers following the government procurement procedures.
My lord, looking at the agency of the matter and the manner in which we are inconvenience and it's not only the offenders that are inconvenience.
We went onto the process of instead of going and advertise the tender, we decided to ask three quotations in order to speed up the process.
while we are sourcing those quotations.
Unfortunately, then only two suppliers responded with quotation again that this matter is urgent.
We realize that we are struggling to get the third quotation and our procurement policy dictates that we must able to have three quotations and now because we are stuck by the fact that we can't get three quotations we process the matter to our delegated authority which is the chief financial officer to give us approval to go ahead with the procurement of the services of a supplier that will uh install the gizers there. And uh in that case, we ended up because we were desperate submitting two quotations to our head office.
financial officer and that on its own was processed and everyone on the document I attached on the my submission h it went to my supervisor at the regional office. It's a memorandum that uh refers to the request from the chief financial officer to fund the emergency repair of hot water supply system at CBEX. So everyone on the route on the route recommended the memorandum including the people that are specialist in finance they recommended the submission. H there's also the specialist in our head office facilities h there's a director who also did not have a the only problem started when it reaches the the level of a deputy commissioner facilities Mr. Koban who says that the we need to get three quotations. He says the request is supported on condition that a third quotation is sourced. Then out of that everyone from there except the the the the deputy commissioner acting chief deputy commissioner who said recommended with amendments in line with the DC financial commitment. So and as a result the delegated authority said that not approved three quotations to be sourced that was on the 14th of July uh 2026 and I can report to to my lord that to substantiate that we have done something this memo has been on route from the regional office and I had made a submission around June middle of June it went to the regional office and the regional office compiled the memo around the 2nd of July. I got the feedback yesterday uh from our regional office on the very same attached memo. But that on that on it on that one I want to also to indicate that we we we are attending to the matter and unfortunately the procurement processes are the ones that are failing us and after we got this memo we went again to the suppliers to go and get the third quotation. We are currently working on it but Deputy Commissioner And I can confirm that um I spoke to my supervisor this morning who is the regional commissioner of he indicated that he is busy engaging the the chief financial officer. They said upon receiving this memor this quotation the third quotation we should process that immediately so that they can give us approval to procure the service of a of of a supplier to deal with that matter.
So in that I want to emphasize that we are working very hard to make sure that this problem is resolved not temporarily forever.
And I want also to indicate that this glitch that I referred to is not affecting the entire CX. There's areas where there is water.
So to respect the human dignity of these offenders, we make sure that uh we have water that is boiled in our kitchen and the water is distributed to the inmates and um we also make sure that they they get the warm water uh by availing those boiled water from the kettles. We are also in the process of procuring the ends so that we can able to avail the water. So I want also to educate that we will shall never ever deliberately h pro make those limitation and h infringe the rights of our inmates and contravene our act deliberately and these are the glitches but I can assure the court that these matters are receiving attention and um there was an issue that is raised that um in local that local is a new glitch the new problem that has erupted it is not having even two 3 weeks it's a fresh one and there the problem is the the boiler and uh we are also attending to that also is affected by the prolonged procurement processes uh the supplier was on but he took some of the uh parts of that boiler. He's busy working on that. So, and yesterday they promised that they will attend to that and give it the necessary attention. And even there at local when Dani is temporary interventions and measures are taken to make sure that at least when they want to bath, they bath with warm water and at maximum there's no water problem. That's to show that our problems are not everywhere and we are not blessing these problems. The problems are there and there and we are attending to them. So I want also to say that we not taking it that their inmates let them wear bath with cold water. That is not what we want. We want to make sure that they are treated humanly and they treated with dignity. So I want also to indicate that even this morning a one of these inmates was given warm water from the cattle and he he refused so deliberately that he should able to frustrate uh this court and also hold this court at Ronz alleging that they are not receiving attention. And I can also indicate my lord that I've got dedicated officials that understand their purpose that knows why they are there and I always make sure that I gave the necessary support and also provide a vis and to can able to make sure that these inmates has receive human treatment and they are incarcerated and we're imposing the sentence so that these offenders are are saving their sentences. So uh we with regard to the issue of of of of of cold of cold water or access to warm water. I I want to to pause there and u leave with that and open for any question. might not what one of the inmates refused to use >> hot water today in the morning.
>> In the morning, my lord. Yes, >> he's not in this court, >> sir. He he he is in this court.
>> You don't have to mention him.
>> He is he is in this court.
>> Does an inmate who is in this court refused the utilization of war?
>> Yes, my lord. And how did he fair? He just splashed himself with whatever.
>> I did not get the the details on that but Mr. Kabu is here to can able to to elaborate on that.
Okay.
Yes.
>> So my lord I want to submit that um these are temporary situations and even us that our law abiding citizens that has not been sentenced we all also sometimes get those glitches and we improvise. So but in this case knowing that they are incarcerated they don't have other measures to can able to do that by themsel we're doing that for them and I want to commit myself that we'll continue to do that and make sure that h they they they do get the water but I want also to to reiterate that these inmates are using all these lame excuses to deter this court from progressing and um most of them the information that is provided is not true is false.
So, and us that are are working there, we are trying our level best and um I take it upon myself that I'm not going to allow these inmates to take control and do as they want before this court and hence I canled everything that I was doing. And I said let me come and give the court a proper perspective and indicate that these are not permanent solutions and in their case as well we we train our level best and we know what is expected from us.
Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.
My lord, it's also not surprising that what my lord has mentioned and denied by by Mr. the advocate money that this offenders one offender indicated that he will refuse to come to court and that is directly what is what what their intentions are and use us as an excuse for us to to delay progress from this matter. But And I think my lord you that that assertion that statement that also displays the behavior of these inmates and their conduct. And I think previously as well in this court there was a fight that erupted in this court.
These offenders they wanted us to treat them with special >> objection.
>> Objection. What is the relevant of a fight that ever?
>> Let the witness talk please. You will have your chance to talk. Let him say whatever he wants to say.
>> No but he's being irrelevant my lord because he's here to come.
>> Otherwise I wouldn't be in this court.
>> Let you not sitting.
>> Let me explain my lord how irrelevant he is. And the court is allowing that to happen.
>> Let the witness say whatever he wants to say.
>> Whatever he wants to say.
>> Stand up and say he was lying, he's irrelevant or whatever, but let him say whatever he wants to say, please.
>> And my lord, I'm not surprised by by that statement you uttered that the offender says he doesn't want to come to court. So but in principle I wanted to indicate that we we we will try our level best to distance ourselves from from delaying the the the pro the the the progress of this court based on the allegations.
Quebec that's that's the the commitment that we putting before this court that uh this matter of water is going to be resolved and is getting attention and um we will work very hard on it.
Let me let me conclude at that.
Kazu.
>> What about the lights?
>> The the lights uh my lord is that uh I I I heard about it this morning. But obviously in one cell if there's a problem that problem must be reported to the unit manager. this offender who says that they had a problem with the light, he has not reported that and I can assure the the lights if it's not a a major issue. We fix the lights immediately because I have got qualified electricers around there and uh we have just procured the the the necessary bulbs that available there. So that on its own as well is a statement that is malicious uted by this offender to able to derail progress of this court and if there's a problem with that light the B cannot be fixed because we've got too many cells CX is not overcrowded like all other centers we can remove that offender and take that offender to another single cell where the the the light the bulb is working. So I I deny the fact that uh this is a challenge that that one does not even require me as the area commissioner or the head of the center.
We can deal with that matter just before breakfast of any day.
So an availability of a light in a cell my lord it is also a security threat to my work as well because I can't be able to see whether that offender is still there he has not escaped or not So uh the unavailability of the light it also disadvantage our workers correctional officials. So and that is a priority to us because as and when we take rounds we want to see what is happening in there during the night during the day.
So with lights, my lord, I want to to stop there.
So you say you can't provide hot water for ablution facilities for this particular gentleman, the five of them. Do you have problems with other inmates? I was told there are about 750 plus inmates.
I have I have 8,000 I have approximately 8,000 in >> right out of that 8,000 how many are saying they don't get water as a matter of cost >> for for for this record and this purpose the ones that are complaining are these ones that are complaining in court >> other inmates 8,000 and what have you done >> they don't have any complaints >> don't they don't have complaints and they they they they get that intervention that we providing to them.
So they and when they are issues they raise the issues with the the the unit managers and case officers and they are resolved there. They say they want water home water every day whether they come to court or go to church as I understand them or whatever they want you to provide them with warm water or hot water. Is that possible?
>> Is is >> at least the the people I see in front of me.
>> Yeah. But look, it's possible to provide warm water every day. The only problem is when you have got to provide warm water from the from the shower so that they can able to bath and it's not almost every day every time. So sometimes during the morning there's warm water.
So it's not a permanent issue. It's just that the these offenders they they they don't want to to adjust and accommodate the gritties and there's no environment that is perfect but I can assure my lord that we can provide home water at any Commissioner 8,000 complaints and I don't know when you relating you're saying it's only started the water problem started which year 2000 it started 2024 >> 2024 >> yeah at at at at cx >> at cx And then at local it started um around uh local started around June around June middle June of uh the late late week yeah middle of June 2024 >> 2026 26 yeah >> so before sorry sorry before 2026 let's say generally there were no problems regarding what >> there were no problems >> and the gentleman in front of us I think because I I took over this is in April 2025 3 >> 2023 >> there were no problems there were there were no problems my lord as I indicated that the problems that we had by that time we were also utilizing public works when there were problems they were they were able to resolve but after public works withdrew and we could no longer get the supplier who installed the the the the the the solar was at CX and our biggest problem is only at CX but all other centers there's no problem with warm water.
And the toilets remember they say the toilets are not working also.
>> That one as well, my lord. I deny that the toilets are not working. So, and I have also dedicated plumbers that are highly qualified that are available. Are they saying this gentleman one of the gentleman at least stays there with all the go >> nobody takes it out or fix it out he sits with it the whole time there >> he's he's not telling the truth because if you are staying in that single cell if there's a problem you must report and in this case I had shared with Mr. U when the the the advocate was presenting that this matter was never brought to our attention and uh normally the in all the centers in a lot we have handymen that are available to can able to fix those things. So the ablution the issue of the toilet I deny that it is a problem and that is why it did not emerge strongly yesterday as well but um it's one of those that are adding to the list to report as if we we are not we are not we are not existing and we are not attending to the problem.
My lord, that on its own as well. It does not influence the right of the offender. It also influence the right of my officials. It it it also contradicts with the occupational head because my officials are expected to enter into that cell and search the offender and check whether everything is okay. And if the the one toilet in the unit is not working, the smell will affect everyone in the unit. So I want to reiterate and emphasize that that is not true.
that I can also repeat that that means that if it is happening the offender has not reported it and my officials are not aware of that but once they aware we can able to deal with that. So I want also to say I have very dedicated and committed officials that can fix this thing before breakfast of any day.
With visits there are no no problem regarding visits with with visit there's no there's no problems my lord them the issues that they are raising is that um In correctional facility there's also limits. You can't have a visit like you are not incarcerated because there's influx of people that are visiting.
These visits visits are limited and the visit as well is you need to make sure that there is time allocated. So there's no problem with visit and that as well visit those visits they come as a privilege and uh we only cut those visits if there's an infringement and the CMC has imposed that there's a sanction there's no problem with visits CMC.
And when you need to consult with an a dentist or a psychologist, what what is the process that must happen? You're inside, you've got psychological problems, you've got dental problems.
How how does one go about it to get treatment, permanent treatment if necessary?
>> My lord, I will explain.
Firstly it starts with the with with the patient which is the inmate must able to register that I have a pain.
Then in every unit we have the dedicated professional nurses that are appointed and once that point that that ailment is registered our officials will able to report is either they take the offender to the hospital and we also have get got dedicated clinic where these offenders can get treatment. So as a result if that offender says I need a dentist the very first person that will able to look at that is our professional nurses that are highly qualified and call the dentist because we don't have permanent uh dentists on our establishment they come per appointment and we've got at CMA we've got dedicated rooms that are very sophisticated with good equipments to can able to deal with that. the department of of of health dispatch a a dentist to come and deal with that matter and as a result the offender if the tooth needs to be removed they will remove the tooth and if the offender needs a treatment and if that treatment they cannot deal with it that day they will inform us that this matter requires referral to the external hospital and thereafter we will make an appointment with the external hospital and we will transport the offender at our own time, our own cost to the hospital. Unless the offender says, I want to go to my private doctor, then we also escort the offender and the offender reimburse the state the kilometers the transport of and the guarding of that offender. But when they want us to utilize our own services, we do that free of any charge.
So if they need a psychiatrist, we follow the very same process. But I can able to indicate that we are very privileged that we have um a very good health system. So and in my case as well when I started working in Kushima I realized that these offenders were missing appointments. I put mechanisms in place that every day I must get the report of an offender that missed the the specialist appointments.
So we we have a good relationship as well with the the nearby hospitals. So no any ailment is is giving us challenges. We there as well my lord we have um good nurses we've got good doctors we've got good psychologist we got we've got good psych social workers that are attending to all these matters and I can assure you I'm almost 5 years in Koshimuru management area and we dealing with these things effectively so local.
Just tell me are the basins here on the ground floor basins. If I want to wash for instance, is there a basin for that >> in the cell?
>> Yeah, here here in in court.
>> Yes, in court.
>> Yeah, here inside here. The last time I entered this courts, the cells was what?
When Steve Bigger was still alive.
>> My lord, I I'm I'm not >> No, no, look. If I want to have a bath, you know what I'm thinking of? Instead of arguing about, hey, the water, the what, the what, why don't we arrange, even if I have to pay for it because I want to get rid of this case. I have to pay for it that accuse 1 2 3 4 5 they should be given warm water here. They leave your facilities there. If they don't want to wash, they're fine. But they must come here and they must be given warm water to wash here. And we can start the the case at 11 to accommodate that. Can't we do that?
>> My lord, I can even take them to maximum to go and and and shower from.
>> No, no, they must be here. It must be here. So that I mustn't hear other stories.
>> My lord, I'm not aware of the the arrangement that we can do. It's it's >> just just check for me. Where's the court order here?
Just just tell us. Is there a basin here, sir?
I know that this the female section and the male section is segregated. Is that not so?
>> Men don't mix with women here.
>> Is there a basin here?
There's there's no basin.
>> What's that?
>> No bas.
>> When you want to drink water, what do you do? You just open the tap.
>> Can't you arrange for that, sir?
Mr. Kosa, can't you arrange for my lord? I I I will I will I will I will I will arrange like I was saying that there is warm water in this building here. I don't know because South Africa is dysfunctional as we all know. Is there warm water in this building?
I I will not know my lord because I I >> as the court order is there warm water in this building sir no >> there's no home water >> I I I I have warm water in other facilities other than hex >> CX and locai I have home water in central I have home water in in in in in Maxima >> how far is central from here >> so they are they are in one compartment it's just the walking distance. So we can we can look at that. I had spoken to to Muhammad who is acting head of Maxima. We we we can work on that in order to please it to kill all these.
>> Yeah. Can it please happen? They must wash here.
>> You you must provide warm water for them to wash here. Not wherever. You must transport the warm water to come here.
Jesus. My lord, the own water from there will be cold.
>> Where where how will we get it hot?
>> The only way that I can able is to me to take them to maximum to go and shower them >> in the morning.
>> In the morning, is that possible?
>> It's possible my lord.
>> Every day >> up until >> because the day they're not sitting in this court, they must have warm water.
The fact that you are not sitting like tomorrow for instance >> that will be practically impossible.
>> Impossible. How?
>> So they can only have home water if they sit here.
>> Shower.
>> Shower. Yeah. Whatever >> they can they can they can they can get warm water from the showers as a >> maximum.
>> At maximum >> there's always warm water there at maximum.
>> At this point we don't have a problem there.
>> So you can take them there. How far is it? Because one of them is the one of them is there at maximum. So and I I >> Yeah, why don't we do that?
>> We can do it. We can do it.
>> Yeah, let's do it. Hey, you know, other judges are sitting with cases. I'm busy here talking about how people should wash and how they should go to the toilet and what should happen to this and that and that.
No my lord will we'll look at that the other >> no let's do it Mr. Let's do it.
And if it is possible, if it is possible, even when they are not sitting, you always take them to maximum to go and wash them. Are you with me?
Because I hear you. You want to take them there because they are coming to court, right?
But they are saying they've got broken teeth and what have you and what have you. So why don't you even do it?
>> My lord, those those those allegations are false.
>> Some of them I watch them on TV. They come to court not wearing jerseys and it's winter.
So it is not caused by the fact that they they don't shower with warm water.
they get warm water if warm water is avail but I was just saying my lord h for the purpose of the progress of this court when they come to this court it's an inconvenience to take one offender from one unit from one center prison to another prison but for the purpose of the progress of this court I will make sure that they go to maximum and bath and we take them from there we come to court >> but for going to be difficult But I want to emphasize >> that there is warm water in cement that we can provide. The only problem is the warm water from the shaft. The home water is there and some of us we are here today we did not have home water but we were able to boil water from the kettle we bath we come there and it's an improvise that we should able to do and I'm saying it's a something that is not going to be permanent my request is that my lord allow us and allow us to make sure that they get and like I had indicated that we are procuring ends so that we can able to provide water as quick as possible. But for every day for them to go to maximum and although it is going to be very difficult for us my lord but um with your indulgence I will request that we understand and accept that there is warm water in the facility. The only problem is that there's very limited water that comes from the sh SMS.
Are there no inmates from what do you call this other prison where you saying they must go and have a bath at? Yeah, >> there is one of them here.
>> Hello.
>> There is one of them who resides there who's incarcerated at maximum.
>> Yeah, I'm going to suggest that these gentlemen every day they must go and have a a wash at maximum. Even if they don't come to court, we can arrange with the cell master here to house them in the cells after that and then at 4:00 4 then they go away. Can't we do that?
My lord, they have already indicated here that they don't have facilities at in in this court.
>> No, I mean at the court there I mean the facility what do you call it? Maximum >> maximum. Yes, >> there are showers there.
>> The there is showers, there is home water.
>> Yeah. Why can't they be housed in the morning? They must have their bath there. Whether they come to court or not, they must have their bath there. My Lord, I had asked my Lord's indulgence by saying that I I will not be able to do it practically and it will be impossible to take them to shower in that center every day even if they're not coming to court. But for the purpose of the pro progress of this court >> I'm I'm I'm I'm immenable and I commit myself that I as as and when they are supposed to appear to court I will make sure that they they go but what I will not do because what I know the reason why these things are raised here they want to be transferred from Zax to Maxima but I'm saying I I will I will make sure that every day when they come to court they will they will shower from Maxima and the head of Maxim is here the head of CX is here they hear the commitments that I'm making and I want to put it categorically my lord that let's let's let's let me have my lord's indulgement that I explore only that concession when they are coming to court and on the other days I will give them warm water from the end or from the kettle >> or from the other the other day.
Max Yeah, maybe that compromise is the best.
But they must have home water every day.
They will have home water every day. My lord, we we we we promise that.
and my lord the issues of um of access to telephone as well. So the the offenders are these inmates they are also not telling the truth.
>> It has already passed lunch time with 10 minutes.
>> Yeah it's okay let's finish with me.
>> The issue of telephones my my lord is that they are also using that as a deterrent to to stifle progress of this court. So in that document of mine I have attached an extract of telephone calls that are made by these inmates.
They in fact they are very I was very upset when I look at that that my officials are giving them an advantage an unfair advantage against other offenders. uh we can go to uh Tuni only only only only that period uh since his admission to >> what medication to go and take.
>> Yeah, you're excused Mr. Thank you.
Yeah, you're excused.
>> Thank you. You can go on.
>> So since his admission in 2025 0709 he already had calls leg telephone calls 68 calls that he has made for the family.
He has made 33 calls. You go to to to to toma he was admitted 25 12th January 2025 legal cost 26 family cost 17 course legal cost 24 family and the extract of the document that I attached.
Let me give you an opportunity.
2025073 January 2025 26 basic January 2021 will attend let this gentleman finish.
So my lot and even Dan as well there's an extract of of telephone calls that he has made and in principle now I'm very satisfied that these offenders they are given a fair treatment to can able to do courts. So they they are making calls. The only problem my lot is that uh the public phones as much as we are well aware that uh telephone calls are the responsibility of telecom public phones and public phones or any landline is no longer making business sense to to tell but what we are trying our level best is to make sure that when there are glitches and when there is breakdown onto this those phones we call immediately.
and the attention is given. So it was over the past weekend I think before the Thursday where the phones were not working but Monday weekend they were fixed they were able to phone and even yesterday they were able to phone so the issue of the cell phone of the landlines or of of of their cause is not something that is permanent but I can able to indicate that there's never a time that the offers are prohibited and disadvantaged from calling and if there's No public phones that available.
If the offender registered the agency of the call, we make the offender to write a request and on that request we will use the government land line of the union manager to can able to call there and they will dial officials will dial and check whether the person who's receiving that side is the intended person that they needed to call and we we we hardly make sure that the offenders are deprived from making calls. So with that I also submit that um these are false allegation then you I have also attached the extract of information that is there.
My lord, um they their problem is that they want to phone as and when they want and that is our facility under our control. One problem that I know with them is that once they are leaving this court when they go to the center they want to to call around 3 4:00 and the operations of that center by that time has been minimized for security reasons and as a result of that they can't just call like any person that is free even a person that is free does not call anywhere but in our case there we are regulating as to when to call and most especially those that are sentenced in fact according to the police. They're supposed to phone only weekends. But in our case, we are very humane. We allow them to make us to to can able to accommodate them. So in their case, after they see things here, when they get to the facility, some most of the time is past 3 to 4, they want to call the lawyers that were with them here.
And here as well, we allow consultations, which we are not supposed TO DO. BUT IN OUR CASE, WE ARE very reasonable and very flexible. And the this offenders want to take advantage of that. And we are not going to allow that. We are not going to allow that.
And they can't call or go on the public phone as and when they want. There's too many offenders that also want to be doing the same. And we give them an opportunity malot. And when there's problems, we've got registers that they must register their complaints and we help the like the issue of the the bank statement that Mr. Mala was involved in.
We we we we we go extra mile and even that issue at the telephone bank of the bank my lord information that is provided to court is false that he ini has has has denied the services of Absa and the correct fact is that the two banks that he standard bank and capital that he has got accounts with when we called them that there is your client that is available that we need you need to help. Can you just come through because we can't bring this offender there because he's an awaiting trial detainine and we don't have protocols to transport the the offender to the bank and even if it's uncens by at this court he's transported by SAPS.
So can you come through? Uh the one who has a problem in CX we called ABSA. Absa was willing to come and even other offenders when there's a problem we we call FNB. So from our side we have done what is expected and then we made sure that the offender is assisted. So when we introduced ABSA it was after the visit of APSA. There's an extract that you will also find on my file that that also indicate that on the 7th of July ABSA delegations came to our facilities to come and able to assist the one who's in maximum. So we asked them can't you able to assist this offender probably by talking to him and transfer his account from standard bank or keep to be in ABSA and then he said no he doesn't want that. So the only problem is that our hands are tight. Mr. Mala h our deputy director that has went extra mile and make sure that the offenders are taken are assisted to with regards to that. So and almost every time when this offenders has got those the the problems like issue of the bank statement that the advocate Ramy was talking about Mr. Mala is the one that assisted because they wanted that extract of a bank statement that was obtained. So it should not be purported as if uh my officials are not helpful are not helping this this and there's an abstract of our complaint and request registered my lord you will see that inani has registered to request the standard bank for a new card and that matter was attended and Mr. Malaba himself indicated that the bank doesn't want to come. So and if the bank doesn't want to come in our case it becomes very difficult. That's that's all that I can able to present my lord to you that um some of these offenders must understand that um they are incarcerated and then when you incarcerated some of the things you can't do them as you are outside we need to beg people to can able to assist us.
So we are trying our level best my lord and um that's my submission and I want to conclude that that and I'm certain that with opportunity granted I covered most of the areas that has been raised as an issue my lord and I want also to make use of this opportunity my lord to thank the court for inviting me to come and give a a a a a proper perspective about uh the incarceration of inmates in our facilities and we will want to invite more uh presentations if we are requested to do so if there's such allegations that are made by us but uh just my submission.
>> Yeah. So lastly, who who do we contact in the morning if one of the inmates doesn't come or hasn't come or has come late to say where's the other inmate who's supposed to be here? is supposed to be taking a bath at such and such a place but we don't see him who do we contact let's see is it the other center >> my lord that seeing that I came they used to contact my heads of the centers who was to me since that I personally came here >> I'm saying contact me >> I can't negate that responsibility >> so that I must leave to the promises that they're making >> okay >> and if there is problems. I'm available.
Advocate Baloy will attest to that. I was called yesterday and I was willing to come and uh I came today. So, and I'm available at every time to can able to unblock the blockages and uh the court can phone me. I'm making a promise.
Okay.
Yeah, Mr. I mean >> Yeah, fine.
You were also saying somebody's raising a hand.
>> Yes, he was his concern was that M colleague advocate was not around. I think we should take a long agendment at this time.
>> He's not ready to >> I also want to take instructions my from what Mr. Ka said this >> I I just want to take instructions my from what Mr. Ka was testifying about. I see we have gone through Dano.
Yeah, because this is an unusual only one in South Africa where this thing happens.
Only one I asked the meeting in I was asking do you have these type of problems which I have no other gentleman yesterday was doing the cat's case. Did you see him on TV?
The judge.
>> The judge. I I tutored that gentleman.
You >> I tutored him.
He was a magistrate and he's one of the guys we interviewed.
Then he became a chief of the magistrates before after then we brought him here in Joc but pertinently in Palm Beach. They acted for about five years that guy under me mus.
>> So we are ajourning now. If you want to consult, you will consult.
You take them to maximum at one time. At one time 3 4 >> So you have about to 3:00. Okay.
>> I'm just trying to do if I've got questions to the witness, what is going to happen? Yes. Since we we have taken about 20 minutes or 25 minutes of the lunch, >> what should be?
>> We come back at the after lunch assignment.
>> Will you be available after lunch?
>> My lord, I'm available.
>> Okay, fine.
>> What's after lunch is what time?
>> 2:00.
2:00. 2:00.
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