This debate captures the essential tension between historical accountability and the modern need for a cohesive civic identity. It effectively reframes national belonging as a dynamic negotiation rather than a static inheritance.
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DEBATE: Should Gen Z Be Ashamed to Be British?Added:
Connie Sean, welcome back to the next generation.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Yeah, thank you for having us. I want us to do a round table today all about the issue of British patriotism. We're going to go into everything from immigration to what it means to be British. So, let's start off by defining our terms and I want this to be a civil discussion I'm going to chip into rather than an adversarial debate. Sean, what does being British mean to you as a Jenzia?
It's an interesting question and obviously for like the past few weeks um it's definitely been something that's been on my mind. I suppose if we start even more fundamental we can think about the concept of identity. What is identity? Now logically identity is a relation. You relate to it right? We all probably assume anyways feel British but we relate to this concept in a different way. And I suppose then in many ways British identity or to be British is a construction but that's not to say it's an artificial construct. What what that what that is to say is that identity and British identity is constantly in a process of making and remaking, right?
It's a dynamic concept. And so I think that in many ways it's very slow, deliberative and a contested process.
Now that's not to say because it's dynamic. It's almost like all of a sudden tomorrow there's no such thing as British identity is going to change.
It's it's takes very very long. And so like the better way for me to explain it all my thoughts, right, is to give some examples. So for example, I'm sure we all like tea. Okay, I love good tea.
>> Or a new tonic.
>> Or a new tonic perhaps, right?
>> But obviously tea once upon a time was an import from India and China. Now that's not to undermine the Britishness of it, but that's to say once once upon a time in a historical process, it came into the UK and became British, right?
Cricket used to be the sport of the country. Now it's football. Arsenal just won the Premier League. However, these Arsenal supporters are not any less British because they don't play cricket.
And so then it being a construction, well, what is it? A construction of it's a again an amalgamation of behavior, values, beliefs, likes, dislikes. You know, British humor is something that I love. The thick of it, I'm sure it's one of my favorite.
>> Well, there we go. It's one of my favorite TV shows as well. And so um that I think is a really good starting point to understand it. However, what I want to center it a bit more on so it's a less abstract is perhaps some of the civic components. Yeah. By civic components I mean that if I think about what am I most proud of to be British, right? It's the NHS. Yeah. It's actually the rule of law, the tradition, the common law, right? which has you know change well changed slowly but over hundreds and hundreds of years all the way back to the Magna Carta and so I really think identity itself is produced and reproduced through human activity over time and we are at a stage where for many reasons it might feel difficult to understand where British identity is going which is obviously what we're going to unpack and so fundamentally I'd start from that starting point it's a relational concept and it has these you know these things that we all hold dear to our parts. But again, fundamentally, because it is a relational concept, it's hard to really pin down. There's no fixity to it, nor is there fixity to any other cultural identity in the world.
>> I want us to dig into some of your thoughts there, but first, Connie, without responding directly to Sean, what does being British mean to you?
>> Well, I suppose the reason why we're asking this qu I mean, this question would not have been asked maybe at least maybe 40 years ago, maybe even not as long ago as that. The reason why we're asking this question is because it seems like no one knows what it means to be British anymore. And because of one of the reasons why we're having this conversation and I'm that we will talk about a lot, I'm sure, is because of the um very rapid and um dramatic change to the demographic makeup of this country over the last 30 years. Um the question of what it means to be British has become far more complicated. Um, I suppose I would still stick to this.
Again, like you say, Sean, it's not something that can be defined in strong or definite terms, but I don't think it would have been very controversial to say not too long ago that um being British um would mean that you were born in Britain and would also mean that you have um ancestral connections to the British Isles. Um but actually because of um immigration into this country and the demographic change, the most important thing to me about being British and I think what to me would make some and I would distinguish between being British and being English, Scottish and Welsh is um understanding the having a similar collective understanding and cultural story um to the generation that came before you in Britain and that story and culture being passed down to your kids and your grandkids. Um, and if you come to this country and that's why we're having really we're asking this question. Um, being British would mean obviously being a citizen of this country. But not just that, not just a piece of paper. It also means assimulating into British culture which like you said Sean is a lot about just being free the idea that everyone is equal before the law having freedom of expression, freedom of conscience and freedom of belief. Um every vote counting as much as anyone else is in a democratic society. Um but not just assimilating into that but actively taking part in that and replicating it and passing it on to your children. So that's what I would regard as you know at minimum that's what it means to be British. Um but at the same time if you were to get really narrow about it yes being British doesn't just mean having similar sets of ideas because Americans think very similar to us in that sense you know what makes us different to Americans if we talk about being equal in front of the law believing in democracy and freedom of speech. So in that sense what separates us from Americans? Well at some point you have to come back to your ancestral connections to this land. That's not saying that Britain can't be open to people who don't have that connection to this land. Um but it does mean that at minimum being British must mean to assimilate into um our centuries long culture of that fairness that that common law and replicating it and passing it down to your children.
>> So you could have a British passport but not be British in your eyes.
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Well, what do you think to that? No, I think you definitely actually touched on a lot of things which I hope to um unpack a bit more. In particular, the individual being able to see themselves as a part of a story, be able to situate themselves on the moral horizon, I think has been lost. I think there's a great emiseration across many communities. Um perhaps we might disagree on the sources of that, but I think it's um to put it in the the philosopher Charles Taylor as well as a malaise of modernity. It's a very modern condition to not really be understanding yourself and your connection to your in in your words ancestral past or heritage or tradition.
The thing I'd probably push back on though is this idea of an ancestral connection cuz what does that really mean? Cuz I think you gave the um example between American and England and I agree there's a lot of like sort of value um similarities in the modern day.
Um, and obviously the implication then I think well because I don't I don't ever want to put words in your mouth, but is to say that there has to be some sort of ethnic component to it, right? Which I'm actually not going to say that ethnicity is not a part of culture. It's not a part of identity. You look across many cultures across the world. They have definitely an ethnic makeup. However, it's not a necessary or a sufficient condition. But by what I mean by that is that if I am a just being white does not make you British, right? Right? Cuz you can be white across the world, can be whatever. Just being English doesn't even necessarily make you British because an English man could go live across the world. I have some stories in my own past. I'm from Trinidad, right? A very murky part of colonialism where English people came over. They're, um, descendants now are very Trinidadian.
They're white Trinidadian, right? So, yeah, it's not a sufficient condition, but nor was it a necessary one either.
And so, um, I think the the conversation now that's emerging, not here, just generally speaking, in the Z guy, so to speak, is that culture is intimately tied to ethnicity, right? And I think that can collapse into the realms of a few problems. Um, but but yeah, there there's actually some stuff which I think is very um insightful as well.
>> I don't know really what it means to be British anymore. I struggle with this and I've left the country because I feel like there's no opportunity here. I feel like any pride that I would have had has kind of evaporated. And I said this to Charlie DS who is slightly controversial figure at the moment in the political world in the UK. I said to him, I'm not proud to be British. He pulled me up. He was like, "No, no, no. You're not proud to be the British that we have now because we've had this complete alteration of what we value in Britain."
And I was like, "Yeah, if I look back at what we've done in the world, what we've given to especially Western civilization, but the world more generally, even though sometimes it's been through awful measures of colonialism, I'm still proud of the British project as a whole. Um, and I'm proud of the fact that I live in a civilization where we value freedom of speech, equal rights, democracy. So I would say I am proud of Britain as a whole. right now I'm not proud to be British in 2026.
>> Picking up on this ethnic point, >> I think it's very difficult because it feels like ethnicity and culture, they're kind of inextricably linked in the world. America is probably the best example to look at this because I've been in America the last 3 months now.
They're a bunch of kind of second generation Mexican Americans who serve in the elite air force or whatever. I don't look at them and go, "You're any less American just because they're second or third generation Mexican immigrants." In fact, >> probably the most American people I've met are kind of second or third generation immigrants. Exactly.
>> You don't look at him and think he's necessarily less American. Whereas in Britain, I think it's more complicated in an as far as the people that we've been colonized by in the past, even going back to 1066 and William the Conqueror landing on the beaches.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> He just happened to be a white Frenchman. So, it kind of kept this white thing in the UK. But if history was different, we would have been colonized by people from Africa or from the Middle East and we would have had more of a mix in ethnicity. So, I think it's really difficult to pinpoint ethnicity as being the be and end British is less British.
>> Um, in some ways, yeah. And that's not because um we that we don't have exactly the same cultural understanding, but I think there's a number of things here that's um often assumed about people who do think there's the ethnic um makeup of nation um is quite important. And so being white isn't what makes you English or being British um or Welsh or Scottish or whatever. Um it's the fact I would say being English, being Welsh, being Scottish, um means that you do have and I the thing the difficult issue is I don't know where the line is, but I think that I I think that if you don't define being English by your ethnic makeup, I'm not really sure what the difference is between being English and being British. Um other than if you were to define it as in you live in England or you live in Wales or live in Scotland. But the reason so you were saying Elliot it's quite difficult to separate ethnic your ethnic makeup from your culture and the reason why that is is related to what I said what being what I think being British is about um and as it would be in any country for example if you said what is it to be Spanish um it would be the same answer that um you have had the traditions and cultures passed down to you through your jet through family and obviously you're going to share ethnic ties to your family because they're your family So um if your parents or say if your grandparents came to this country and obviously you wouldn't expect anyone to arrive somewhere new and leave all of their traditions and cultures behind.
They will bring some of that with them and they you can still bring that with you and assimulate. Um some people don't but it is because therefore of your ethnic makeup the fact that you are born to parents who came from elsewhere but you will be born in this country but your parents weren't born here. So many of the cultures and traditions that are likely going to be passed down to you will be very different to someone whose grandparents and great-grandparents um were born in Britain and have a long ancestral line. So that's why it's quite difficult to separate ethnicity from culture. Um and why ethnicity I think is important to being British. It's not the only thing about being British, but it means that in order to pass down those things, which I think is very important about being British, um you're far more likely to have that concept of being British if you have a long lineage of being British and h having um generations of your family being in this country. So that's why it's difficult.
And then therefore being white isn't what makes you English or makes you British. It's that the people who have been in Brit in the British Isles for many generations happen to be white. So it's not being white that makes you British, but if you are English, Scottish, or Welsh, most British people are white, but that's not what makes them British. In the same way that I, and I think a helpful analogy is >> um to sort of draw an analogy with sex and gender, in my mind, having a penis is not what makes you a man. What makes you a man is the fact that you're biologically male. And if you are biologically male, you are going to have a penis. Unless you're one, you know, one of the 0.018% of people who have a DSD, it doesn't mean you're not male or a man. But most people who are male, the vast vast majority will have a penis.
And therefore, if you're looking at a body, you can say, "Yes, this is a male person." But their penis isn't what makes them a man. It's the fact that they're male. So if I look at a white person um they are far they are far more likely in this in Britain to be a British or an English person than someone who isn't white. But that's not what makes him British or English. So I think that's often where people say you're making this about race. It's not about the color of your skin because that's not what makes you British or English or Welsh or Scottish. It's about your lineage your lineage. And if you have a long lineage here then you are going to be white. I want you to respond, but first, do you think that the further right factions of political parties in the UK are going wrong by prioritizing this kind of ethnap movement and focusing on the whiteness of the country?
>> That's one of my questions as well.
Interest.
>> So, and Montgomery Toms would say the same. I've spoken to him a lot and questioned him because I also see things um that for example Charlie D says when he's been questioned like so what does it mean to be British? He can tell you from what I've watched anyway. I've seen him describe what it isn't to be British, but he struggles to say what it means to be British, which is not a helpful line.
>> Um, and um, I would argue, and you know, Monty, if you're watching, if I've got it wrong, that Monty and I would agree on this on what makes you English or British um, and or at least what is important and the fact that your ancestral connection to this land is a very important factor. But it doesn't mean that if you're not white that you're not English or British. Um because if your family have assimilate like proper assimulation would mean marrying in and reproducing with the native population I would say. Um >> being white doesn't make you British but being British means that you are probably white.
>> Yes. Or at least you have ethnic um part of your ethnicity is from other people who have had very long ancestral history in this country. So if you're mixed race and one of your parents is English, then you are also English because you may have other ethnicities mixed in, but you are you have a connection to a long ancestral um generations of people who have been here. So yeah, it's not the color of your skin that makes you British or English or anything else. Um it's the ties and those people who've been here for a long time just so happen to be white.
Yeah, I think the the the logic of ancestral relation to the land collapses in and on itself and it's probably for a reason why a reason um that you actually mentioned which is like where do you draw the line? Okay.
>> So often times like we sort of stop by like English, Welsh, Scottish um which Northern Ireland as well. Well, can't forget them.
>> Too happy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but actually like when we try to unpack English identity in my opinion and I think this is founded in a lot of like English historians as well. Straw Hall is a great um British Jamaican thinker and this is what he said is that it's really a temporary regional identity because actually um Londoners are very different to Jordis. Jordis are very different to people from from Kent very different from Cornishmans etc etc. And so that where do you draw the line argument I think is very important because actually you can even go down into subcultures.
So then English culture just becomes an amalgamation of different sub cultures >> and therefore I think that >> of course like seeing your community and seeing everything change around you in the past however many years cuz it has happened at a more of a rapid rate.
Obviously that's going to cause anxieties. Obviously it's going to cause certain insecurities. Okay that's fine.
a taxi man um drove me here cuz I came late. And um he was in the East End, born and raised, proper accent. And he was he was like I told him, "This is what I'm going to come talk about. Tell me what your thoughts are."
>> Hackne accent.
>> Uh like old school East End accent.
Yeah.
>> And then he said the same thing. Look, I'm an English man. I've seen my community change. Um and you know, sometimes like I just it just feels a bit inongruent. And I get it. That's fine. But that's part of the human experience is what I'm trying to say.
And sorry just just to give you an example in my own history. Okay, look. I walk down the street. People probably just think I'm Pakistani Indian or something like that. Okay, ancestrally I am Indian. Once upon a time I was Indian. The British came over, took my ancestors as indentured laborers, which is a fancy word for slaves, bought them over to Trinidad, beated them, raped them, etc. blah blah blah, whatever. Put that to aside. But they had to land in Trinidad and make a new identity amongst African slaves as well. So Trinidadian identity for a long time was a great tension between both the British um who were there as the kind of colonial overseers um the African slaves as well who actually felt that they had more of a claim as well because they were there 200 years prior and now the new Indians.
And so it was only until a political movement in 1962 when we gained independence that Eric Williams came up and said there is no mother India, there's no mother Africa, there's no mother Britain, there is just mother Trinidad. And so I think that's a perfect example to show you that actually culture being this relational identity, this moving things, this this moving thing, this dynamic thing doesn't necessarily have to be um a bad thing.
And actually ancestral relation and like you know trying to cling on to ancestral relation I think is um a bit of a superficial surface level way to understand identity because actually in many other parts of the world um that's not how identity identity is um formulated or understood >> I think so actually I didn't finish answering or I didn't really answer at all one of your questions which I can understand as a concern and I kind of said the first part but um you know the word ethnoism come up and I think that um I think that there as I've already said I think there are important parts of ethnicity that make um a group of people in a nation people of that nation.
However, um there are so there are some people I'm sure to the left of me who would describe me as an ethnationalist, but I would I always when I think of that word I can I think of people like seriously far right who wants to deport every non-ethnic ethnically English person from England or um non-ethnically British person from Britain. And that's different to recognizing that there is an important ethnic part of what makes any nation a group of people that can have a collective culture. Um, and I don't think that's something that for example restore would I mean it's not it's not restore is very much like um similar to what I was saying earlier that if you do not assimilate and replicate British culture um and you don't contribute to the society then we respectfully don't want you here. um that that's what I have read from their documents and heard Rupert Lo say whether or not his supporters say other things is a different matter. Um but believing that there is an important part of ethnicity to what makes someone a certain nationality um doesn't mean that you therefore want to get rid of everyone else who isn't. So just to um sort of caveat that >> I think it's helpful it's that distinguish dist distinguished leap that ethnonats make where ethnicity goes from being a useful pragmatic huristic for seeing if someone is part of your country to actually being a defining characteristic which it seems like we're both in agreement we're all in agree that it should I mean I don't know how you would describe yourself but um >> would you say that you clearly have I mean I don't know if you were born here I assume that you Yeah. Yeah. Born and raised north London.
>> But clearly you have um important and meaningful connections to where your ancestors came from.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> And I think that's that's part of what it means to be I mean what it means to be anyone who and I for me my ancestors are from Britain >> and so I don't have connections elsewhere. Um >> do you think that makes him less British than you?
>> You can be honest. It's fine.
>> I honestly don't know what I think about that. I think something an example that I always think about is um the the hardline civic nationalist would be to say well the most hardline would say if you come to this country even if you weren't born here as soon as you get that piece of paper you are just as British as everyone else. I mean I don't agree with that at all. I think that's I think that's just as absurd as saying a man is a woman as as soon as he gets his gender recognition certificate that says he's a woman. I think that's insane. I also think and I refuse to accept that the four chaps, three of them were born in this country who blew themselves up on the buses and on the underground on 77 are just as British as me. Absolutely not. They were born in this country. Um but their parents or three of them um from Pakistan and clearly these three boys who went on to a terrorist training camp to Pakistan before they came back to blow up the transport networks in London had far more identity and um connection to ideologies of faraway places who were really anti-British obviously. So I refuse to believe that just because they were born in the country that I was also born in that we are just equally as British. We're not.
Um, and that's why I think that ethnicity is important in terms of your ancestral lineage because it is far less likely that those boys or young men would have had um an identity or sort of closer connection to what they were seeing going on in Pakistan ideologies in Pakistan if their parents weren't from Pakistan. And that's not to say that their parents had terrorist ideologies, but I imagine it's far less likely. You don't see it so much. That's why one of the reasons why I would argue that our biggest terrorist threat is Islamism because I imagine that the cultural traditions are being passed down are going to be very different from those who have ancestral lineage in this country. That's not to say that um ethnically English people can't be radicalized, but it's just not as much of a threat as it is from Islamism. Um, and so the reason why I make that point is because you said Sean, you know, and I agree that, you know, where do you draw the line and you know, you could go back hundreds and hundreds of years, but the reason why we're asking this question is because today one in 30 people who live in Britain arrived here in the last 5 years. So the speed at which it's happened um you know I agree it's very difficult to draw a line if you go back hundreds of years but the reason we're having this conversation is because the speed of which has happened over the last 30 years is so rapid that now it feels like and I think one of the reasons why people are so angry is that if anyone can be British it doesn't mean anything at all and in the same way if anyone can be a woman then a woman doesn't mean anything at all. Um, >> well, I think a really useful place to interject at here is distinguishing between being a British citizen and being a patriot because those guys that blew themselves up on buses, >> maybe it was that they're actually just as British as us. They just weren't patriots. If we say something along those lines of patriotism being a fundamental love for one's country but encompassing much more than mere affection, including identifying with fellow citizens and demonstrating concern for the nation's well-being. All the other definitions on Google are a love for your nation. Is it actually that we're not suffering with people coming in that aren't British? Is it that we're suffering a lack of patriotism?
>> No, no, no. I think that definition alone where it says love for your country. I do not believe that those young men felt that this was their country because why would you do that to your own country? And I think that is I think saying that they just weren't patriots is a massive stretch.
>> This is going to sound like a super woke push back here, but would this not would this not be the same as someone who's an actual farright thug in the UK? And that label gets thrown around so much, way too much, by leftwing media outlets for people that are literally just right-wing and reasonable people with different viewpoints than them. But if we take actual right-wing thugs who cause havoc and they break buildings and assault people, >> would you not say that they're just kind of not patriots? They're still British.
They're just bad Brits.
>> Yeah, sure. But they would still be British, whereas I wouldn't consider those four guys British. But then that means you're bas basing that off like an ethnic assumption, you know.
>> Well, I think a I think part of the reason why they probably had so one of the reasons why they had so much hatred for Britain is probably partly down to the fact that they don't have that common sense of being British because that couldn't have possibly been passed down to them because their parents weren't from here.
>> So, what about Jiadi John, the British man who went over to ISIS? English man.
He definitely had ancestry here.
>> Sure. But like I said, it doesn't mean that um is there are exceptions. There are exceptions, course. Okay, fine.
>> But he he was he he would fall into the category of being a bad Brit, I would say. I mean, an exceptionally bad Brit.
>> Well, I'm saying the logically consist >> I also don't know much about Jiadi John.
But I'm saying the logically consistent position is to say that actually these boys um even though they had some link to Pakistan, they are still just bad Brits as well. They're just not good patriots. I think under some definitions, yes. But the the thing that I find very unc uncomfortable and um that I would not cannot accept is that um as someone who is who has a long ancestral I mean my I've spent a long time on ancestry out of my own interest.
I had no idea how long not just my family have been in this country but how long in the same place my family have been in this country >> where I'm in Suffuk or at least on my maternal side um I can trace my maternal grandmother's name back to the 1400s and that's just in the same county within the same sort of 20 mile radius which is insane that's a beautiful thing >> um but I refuse to believe that those boys were just as British as I am >> that's what I find very uncomfortable about it just because you were born in this country.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Like h how could you how could you possibly be as British as someone who has hundreds of years of ancestral connection to this land?
>> Well, well, I mean, well, >> just because you're born here.
>> So, I mean, that second part is like perhaps a bit of a different question cuz I mean, like I said with my definition, it's a relational concept.
And in this kind of messy aggregate of relational things, you have behavior, you have um identity, ethnicity plays a part. So perhaps on the ethnicity scale, of course they're less British in that sense, but of course being British and not just about ethnicity. What I'm saying is that actually I mean you have a right to be disgusted by that act. I mean I am as well. Me being a Muslim as well, I've like it's just I mean we will get into that but like it's just horrible to see people do that in the same thing with the name that I love and I devote myself to, you know. Um, so the the the pain that you feel is completely reasonable, especially again because I I I sympathize with people who've seen communities change in so fast. That is what globalism has done. I'm saying change the change itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but the speed of it might raise interesting questions of how to cope with it. But fundamentally, these people were British. Sheima Beum is a British girl and they're our problem. This is why if we connect ourselves to the tradition of common law, right, that actually if they are radicalized in this vicinity, in this country, in this state, it's our problem. So even I'm actually very much aligned with Jay Cubric Mog who also agrees that Shamima Beam is a British girl and she should be brought back and then face um the law.
>> I think the point the response would be um they wouldn't have been our problem if their parents hadn't come here. And so when you say that um you obviously have sympathy with how quickly people's um communities have changed, it's not just the speed, but it's the type of change.
>> But then you can just apply that to like bad British white people. If their parents' parents parents didn't come here then from whatever European country, then it wouldn't be our problem now. Like I said earlier, over the last 30 years, you know, before 911, I don't think obviously that was in America, but I don't >> Pakistanis came in the 70s. My point being is that over the last 30 years there has been clearly a huge problem that we did not have before. Um and I know of course I know the IRA we had sectarian violence of course but this is a very specific type that has only started to be a problem in the UK because of mass immigration. So when we're talking when you said about you have sympathy with people whose communities have changed rapidly it's not just about the speed it's the type.
So for example, not all immigrants are the same. If you are going to allow mass immigration from a country like Pakistan, for example, which we have, you will start to see extremely different cultural changes to this country than if we had let mass immigration come um from France, >> from French people or from Denmark or from Sweden.
>> Just just to clarify your viewpoint here.
>> Okay, fine. Yeah. Do you think that this narrative of the Islamification of the West >> is grounded in anything that's a genuine concern? Or do you think if we're going to the logical end point here, it's rooted in a xenophobia and a kind of emotional distaste for a culture different to people's own.
>> So I mean the So Islamification of the West. So when people talk about the Islamification of the West, of course they're talking about the um like the terrorist attacks that have occurred. So 911 etc. which again this is for maybe perhaps you can bring and I can help you connect with like a historian historian on Islamic extremism to come on but a lot of that is a modern phenomenon okay and actually a lot of it and that's not to excuse it away cuz obviously it's still a problem you have to deal with um but it's something that has occurred in the last similar um age um year range around 50 years. So is it a problem?
Well, I don't think it's a a problem at all um that more and more people are finding Islam because I think that would make me a hypocrite. U maybe I am a personification of someone who is Islamifying the West, so to speak. Um it's definitely Islamifying your podcast, the second um appearance, but um it's it's it's a problem in the sense that there definitely needs to be a hold and understanding of how, for example, um people in these shores were radicalized. Um but it's not a uniquely um a unique phenomenon to the west either. There's when during the rise of ISIS for example even my home town in hometown this is my hometown but back home in Trinidad there was there was a lot of people who were radicalized as well and so it's a lot more of a complex process than things merely happening um in this land. Um, was there another part to that question or is it a xenophobia >> the thing I want to distinguish if we're taking people to the logical conclusions of their argument?
>> Is there any grounding for these fears or is it that we're kind of in a teething period and it will be fine.
People just need to get over the fact that there's a different culture that's coming that's going to melt with theirs and they need to stop being emotional xenophobes.
>> Yeah. Okay. Fine. Um I wouldn't never I'm not sure I'll take the framing of that to be stop being emotional xenophob but obviously there's exaggerations um that are happening around the Muslim community the stereotyping of us the age-old um fallacy of treating a minority as a majority um so I think especially I'm sure we'll talk about like the march that happened as well um even that right some of the things you saw there were also um very worrying for like the average Muslim in fact it's quite interesting cuz within the sort Muslim community, those kind of extreme fringes, they uh come together, you know, the horseshoe theory, the horseshoe spectrum with, you know, the far right because they both think Islam is the same thing, right? I did want to ask her one question though. That's okay. Just to circle back to the the Pakistan stuff cuz I think you keep bringing up Pakistan as a um point around like perhaps them being somewhat culturally inferior. I don't want to put words in your mouth um compared to perhaps other cultures like France. I would say that British culture is definitely better than Pakistani culture. Yes.
>> Okay. Fine. So what particular parts of Pakistani culture are inferior?
>> Um I would say the punishments for blasphemy. Um >> well that's not part of Pakistani culture.
>> Well I think there are people who are executed for blaspheming against Islam Pakistan.
>> Well I know that Amadia Muslims suffer like state state sanctioned persecution.
Okay.
>> And actually one of the most >> But that's not Pakistani Islam. That's like Pakistan statethood.
>> Sure. Well, it happens in Pakistan. So, if we have a lot of people from Pakistan coming to this country, it will start happening here. And it did in 2016 um when a Muslim from Bradford drove all the way to Glasgow to murder an Amadia Muslim even though he was a Muslim himself for what he believed was blasphemy. Okay.
>> So, we that's an example. But do you think that's a totalizing view of Pakistanis and Pakistani culture or is that just do do you take that to be a majority or >> well the things that we're seeing in this country when we look at certain crimes for example the grooming gangs it is a fact that Pakistani men are disproportionately represented in that and that is a very >> in that particular area though right >> well there's at least 50 towns and cities across the UK that we know that this crime has happened and gone unsolved people knew about it and did nothing about it but it's a very specific type of crime. And one of the other reasons that I mean the reason why we're talking about Pakistan is because I use the example of the 77. Three of them happen to be um have um parents who are from Pakistan. But Pakistan generally has immigration from Pakistan has caused a lot of problems in this country. That's not to say that every Pakistani person or people who are descendants of Pakistanis who've come here have caused issues. I'm sure there are many who absolutely um uh contribute to this society. But where we have huge issues of um uh ethnic enclaves for example in Bradford the way that cousin marriage has re and that's one of the reasons why the grooming gangs were able to operate was because of the kinship between um between the people who were raping girls. So many of them would be brothers, cousins and because of the tribal nature of um the family model in Pakistan because of cousin marriage that meant that ties between families were extremely tight in a way that we don't have that in Britain and most of the west because cousin marriage was outlawed along >> spoken to a Pakistani about this >> I haven't personally but I have done a lot of research into the grooming gangs and tried to understand and listen to two experts on the grooming gangs um but that is you know in whatever culture in British culture, can you imagine on mass scale where you would just crawl around some of your cousins or your brother or you know your dad even and these are real examples to to rape young girls.
>> Obviously it's disgusting.
>> It's sure but it's just an example to understand a bit more. Yeah.
>> So it's just an example of how from that particular culture we have got now issues in this country as a result of mass migration from that culture. Um, and there are others as well that have caused issues. But when we talk about sort of multiculturalism, um, when we talk about it being an issue and people mocking the phrase diversity is our strength, a lot of the cultural issues that we're seeing in this country as a result of mass migration are not, for example, from the um, many Ukrainians that we brought over to this country when we offered them refugee status here when the war broke out. It's from countries um it's from Muslim countries that have really the immigration to this country have really changed the way that our police force operate for example the way the justice system works the way that people um can and cannot say stuff in the workplace.
Um it really has changed our culture to the point where we have the CPS trying to prosecute people for in um offending or insulting the institution of Islam or MPs in parliament calling for um to make the desecration of holy books illegal and our prime minister agreeing with that. I mean there are so many examples um that we see every day at the free speech union of the influence of basically Islamic blasphemy laws by the back door having a real impact on our country and that would not be happening without mass migration.
>> In the name of trying to find some middle ground here and understanding I think a useful analogy would be that part of British culture is going over to Amsterdam on a weekend away with the boys and chucking a bunch of bikes into the canal. That's part of being British and I'm not proud of that. That is bad for Amsterdam. That's bad for the Netherlands. But I would own that time and time again. I mean, maybe I'm just speaking from my personal experience.
This is what us Brits do. That's kind of part of a coming of age being 18 and going with the boys over to Amsterdam.
That's British culture. Now similarly here by analogy these grooming gangs being mainly Pakistani Muslim men time and time again intergenerationally as well since the 60s or 70s that shows that this is clearly part of either Pakistani culture >> or Muslim culture. Would you be willing to accept that?
>> Um well I mean well there's no such thing as like Muslim culture. Yeah. you know, because Islam is a universal and not to get Hegelian, but universals are only known through their particulars.
And so, like there's no such thing as like a like a Islamic culture, Muslim culture >> or the way that Pakistani men practice >> practice culture >> um >> or Islam. Look, I think like when you get into these conversations without any sort of because from what I've seen, the data I've seen is that um there the the the Muslim grooming gang stats, I'm not going to like um or the Pakistani grooming gang stats. I'm definitely not going to discount that there are Pakistani grooming gangs and they should um face the full force of the law. It is a problem. But the sort of fear that translates to or that allows you to conclude that therefore there's something wrong with the entity of like multiculturalism or immigration.
>> But taking multiculturalism out the window for now specifically with those grooming gangs, is that a cultural issue?
>> It's it's probably an issue within their remember what I said about subcultures, right? Because the Pakistani grooming gangs don't exist in Newm is heavily Pakistani. Okay. So there's >> How do you know they don't exist? Well, as in they're not Well, obviously I'm just going based off like the data and like also knowing the New York community quite well. I can't like know for sure, right? Um it's the same way like I don't know there's like backdoor crimes going down in any region, right? But actually like these particular areas and they are localized to certain areas. There is a problem there. I'm happy to say that and actually like we should just deal with it as we should as Brits. Um and so the the thing is though this has been weaponized so much right to cast doubt on Islam cast doubt on I think Pakistani people generally speaking as well right because I'd be interested cuz I don't have the stats I didn't I don't like you know study it obviously you you kind of come like an encyclopedia with all the stats fair >> I haven't I I don't know the stats either >> but just out of like you know the Pakistani population right what is the percentage of people who do this right and actually look at the the populations of different cult cultures and identities and things like that and understand the the um population of people who do that as well. I think it's basically I think there is definitely a problem with these particular areas needs investigating but I think it's absurd to conclude that there's something inherently wrong with Pakistani culture. I think there's something inherently wrong um we're saying there's something wrong with Islam. Having said that though obviously conceptually people can bring quote unquote backwards practices backwards practices exist across cultures even particularly in English culture I think a lot of the stuff that we saw last Saturday was not British at all it's not productive at all so um the sensationalizing of it I just wonder to what end >> when you say sensationalizing of it >> um I don't think you know these are things I wish weren't true um it's Not I think that people have genuine anger about the fact that this has been allowed to happen and I understand you know I think >> but one of the issues where um the left in particular have and I mean the progressive left um is whether you are a cultural relativist or not whether you believe that basically all cultures are equal to say that one culture is better than another um is to sort of enforce an imperialist and western view. just don't understand those cultures. But >> okay, correct.
>> But I'm I am very certain and happy to say that I think that British culture is far better than Pakistani culture. And you say how you know how many Pakistani people are actually doing this per it's per capita. So I know that in there was one town.
>> Oh, that's what I meant by that. Sorry.
>> Sure. But it is disproportionate. And this this was all in the Casey review that led to the the Labor government finally um saying that there was going to be an inquiry on what year was that again? Just >> the um rapid audit came in 2025. Okay.
So the news kind of exploded. Elon Musk shared um a transcript from a sentencing remarks in Oxford. The case was in Oxford and that was about January last year. And then Charlie Peters, um he's a journalist at GB News who's probably, you know, there have been people before him, but at the moment he is probably the most um informed and expert on, you know, because journalists haven't touched it, the police haven't touched it. It has been a cover up and >> he's ultimately the one that blew the whistle.
>> Yes, he blew the whistle. So as soon as Elon Mus shared it, Charlie was like, I need to start telling people what I know about this. And there was one town in particular where um as far as I can remember because I don't have it in front of me out of the Pakistani population it was one in 80 had been involved in grooming gangs or at least had been convicted. So like per capita it was insane. Um and you and it's this and it's not to say that there aren't pedophile ring white British pedophile rings but this was a very specific style of grooming. And when you say they're localized they are national networks of criminal gangs. It's not just about the abuse of children. It's the trafficking of children. It's the selling of drugs.
It's getting children to often do the selling of drugs or to um somehow help out with the criminal networks. Um it's across the country. So, >> but that particular thing of like so back in my day when growing up in London, you call that trapping for for the young kids at home. But that's just not a particularly Pakistani thing. That happens across all types.
>> When we're talking about the phrase grooming, it's a grooming gang. So, there's drugs involved in the grooming gang. Stop talking about.
>> Yes. So they are they are criminal networks and it was I think wasn't it Sadi Khan who who was questioned in a meeting by um forget her name but I think she was the conservative leader in the London assembly asking um are there grooming gangs in London and he pretended not to know what she meant by grooming gangs and then not long after that clip went viral um the Met police announced that they're investigating 9,000 um alleged cases in London because they're national networks. is not just in places where there are um condensed population of of Pakistani community.
Again, it's not to say that all Pakistanis are doing this, but the point is if we hadn't allowed such huge um and at speed um immigration from a culture um that does um thrive on basically kinship and your tribal loyalties rather than being an individual, which western culture is um individualistic rather than tribal, then this wouldn't have happened. And that's why people are angry about it because it was something that was so preventable. And in with hindsight, it makes complete sense that if you're going to allow a lot of immigration from cultures that are completely different, you don't want if you don't want to say better or worse, completely different to ours, then you're going to start seeing very, very different and then bad things happening that didn't happen before. And that's what we're seeing. I think >> just to follow up on this and gain clarity from everything you've said it sounds like you're honing in on a cultural issue with Pakistani men.
>> Well, it's not just Pakistanis that we have a cultural issue with.
>> Sure. But within this conversation now, it sounds like it's an issue with Pakistani culture in the UK. But the implication that I've seen having produced trigonometry for 3 years and interviewed survivors of >> It's not Pakistani. is lots of the the men who are involved seem to be coming from a certain place in Pakistan that are even regarded by other Pakistanis as being quite backwards even within their own country.
>> This is what I was going to get to.
>> Sorry, it's important clarification.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm glad you clarified that, but the implication that I often see from people is that it's not a specific concentrated area of Pakistan that's backwards by Pakistani standards. that it often spills into an argument against Islam as a whole or Pakistan as a whole.
>> What do you mean? Sorry.
>> So the grooming gangs, it's not just a concentrated area of Pakistan and the men coming over from there that need to fix their culture. The argumentation I've seen on platforms like GB news will be this is because of the Islamification of the West and that so the other thing as well that um I don't think I said was that this isn't yes there are some bits of Islam that come into it like the girls testifying said that they had Quranic verses read out to them to justify you know as I think there's a certain phrase about um a you know the fact that they were non-believers um made it basically fair game to these guys was part of it but it is a specific Pakistani issue you don't um Muslims from North Africa necessarily on mass getting involved. So that's why in Bangladesh Exactly. So it's it's not a um you know and this is maybe one thing that um as much as Tommy Robinson very early on called out the fact that this was happening. He does put a lot of it down onto Islam and that's not necessarily correct because it's not a mass Muslim problem. It is quite concentrated within Pakistan. So even just to think about like a solution to that what I would like to see as a Muslim is if like if if the data shows this cuz again I haven't seen the data right and if you're right actually that if it's from a particular area in Pakistan as well which that actually links back to my first um point around subcultures like you know there's no such thing as England English culture necessarily because you go minutia there's even like east London west London culture one surely people English people whether you're from Yorkshire or from London have far more in common with each other than with people from Pakistan.
>> That's sure. Yeah. But as in that's not even the point I was going to make.
Yeah. Sorry. I was just saying like within a sort of culture, right? As in cuz we're we're totalizing Pakistan.
Yeah. But there's different small parts in Pakistan and you obviously came with evidence to say that actually a lot of the evidence shows that they come from even a particular part of Pakistan, right? And so actually what we should be doing is talking with community leaders and thinking so what's going on? Like what is actually going on here? what is like what's happened with the history of these like particular people come from this particular area and just be cognizant of that particularly immigration policy and things like that cuz I I don't want to see that either right however it is not productive to simply focus on that and also draw the conclusion that therefore if if this immigration didn't happen in the first place this wouldn't happen because as much as I'd like to prevent um prevent like crimes happening in the future that's just not how preventing crimes work, right?
>> It would have prevented it if they weren't here.
>> Yes. But so much would have been prevented if we didn't allow for example um like the the movement of people from different areas in the UK to come and um do a march like over the weekend by weekend girls across the country. I'm not talking about saying something wrong.
>> The principle is the crime. You want to prevent the crime itself, right? And I'm saying that thinking about the justice system in like a way where or thinking about political systems that you have to pre preempt a crime that could happen.
That's just not how common law has even or even any law system has um evolved over years because that's just not how it works.
>> Well, there's a bigger question to be asked here aside from a distinct area.
>> Sorry, I was getting too philosophical and I really don't want to downplay the grooming gangs and say it's just because of this small cultural area in Pakistan because I actually don't think that's the case. I think there's a bigger question here which is the congruency of Islam and Western values that are heavily rooted in Judeo-Christian values that share loads of similarities with the Quran, the Bible, the Old Testament, whatever, but they are still fundamentally different. There are different tenets. When I go to Saudi Arabia, and I've spent a lot of time there, they had the religious police until a few years ago that would heckle women who weren't dressed up enough, that weren't covering their shoulders literally in a shopping mall for 15 minutes, then verbally abuse them, hell at them, and that was in their culture, and that was grounded in religion, in Islam. Same in the UAE. I remember my stepmom couldn't be in the playground or or my stepmom could be in the playground with my little sisters growing up, but my dad couldn't. So there are loads of cultural differences and even if you look at the stats of democracies uh I think it was the majority of countries 47 out of 50 that are predominantly is Islamic countries they're theocracies rather than democracies. You don't see that with Christian countries.
>> Yeah. There's a bigger question here and I feel like I need to chip in a little bit so this doesn't become too back and forthy between you guys as to whether Islam specifically is fundamentally congruent or inongruent with Western values. I think there are loads of things that are rooted in scripture that would undermine our ability to look at democracy or rule of law in particular ways that is going to cause problems. I don't think it is just a distinct cultural thing about Pakistan. I think that rightly or wrongly there are fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity obviously that are going to cause tensions.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um so so should I respond to something in particular or just open up the conversation. So I guess you you'd probably agree broadly then as well that there is just obvious because obviously it's fundament there are differences. Um but then maybe if we hone in on the concept of incompatibility like to what extent do you might would you in your experience think that is incompatible? I just want to hear genuine question as well. So, I'm not going to get into a theological because obviously you will know far more about the theology of Islam and perhaps even Christianity than me.
>> But the effects of um is Islam in this country and specifically therefore then into our politics which was obviously going to happen because if you have people coming from countries and coming to this country who practice Islam and um sub communities then yes democracy eventually you will get people in parliament who are Islamic. um the way that it's >> well they're Muslims >> or follow Islam is what I mean.
>> Okay. Muslim >> Islamic Muslim.
>> Yeah. Fine. um and the way that we have seen our politics and our authorities and I touched on it briefly earlier drastically changed as a result of um the authorities instead of choosing to treat everyone equally under the law.
They have chosen to play a balancing act between the cultural sensitivities of one relatively small group. We have four million Muslims as this country. They make up 6% of the population according to the 2021 census. Yet the way that the police operate seem to be to make sure that that that the Muslim community are not offended. And for example, um Hammet Hoskin, he was an asylum seeker from Turkey. He was an atheist and he served time in prison for his political involvements in Turkey and then he um claimed was trying to claim asylum here and in a protest he went to the Turkish consulate and he burnt a copy of the Quran on his own. It was peaceful in the sense that no one was being hurt. Um some people may have may well have been very offended by it and one of those people who was very offended by it happened to be a man just passing by. He was called um Mad Kadri. He went back into ha his house and brought out a knife and started swinging a knife at Hammet and said, "I'm going to kill you." Now, the CPS charged Hammet originally on the charge seat, it said, for insulting the relig, the institution of Islam. They then changed that to section section 5 under the Public Order Act that Hammet had caused alarm, harassment, and distress. Hammet was convicted of that. Um and in the sentencing remarks, the judge said that the evidence that he had caused alarm, harassment, and distress um was that a man tried to come and stab him and said, "I'm going to kill you." Now, that guy must mustad Cadri, he got no jail time for coming out with a knife and saying, "I'm going to kill you because you've offended my religion." Now the idea that we would have the British justice system charging someone for burning a religious book of any type for insulting that religion is insane when we live in a country that is very much founded on the belief of freedom of conscience um of freedom of expression even expression and specifically expression that is offensive. We have an accepted understanding absolute freedom. We don't, but we do accept that um freedom of speech, if that does not include doing things or saying things that people find offensive, then there's no point in having freedom of speech at all. Now, that's just one example, but Martin Frost, he's another chap who burnt a copy of the Quran in Manchester.
Again, no one was being hurt. It was just a book being burnt. Um he was arrested for the same crime, for the same alleged crime that he had caused alarm, harassment, and distress. And the Greater Manchester Police put a statement out basically apologizing to anyone who'd been offended. And don't worry, we're dealing with him. Um, I mean, even more recently, um, there was the Nova exhibition for the the exhibition about what happened on October 7th. They were told to take the sign down from the exhibition just in case anything happened, any, um, violence occurred. Um, the fact that uh, the West Midlands police banned McCabby Tel Aviv fans from coming to watch the Aston Villa game versus Macabby Tel Aviv. And now, thanks to Nick Timothy's work, the shadow justice secretary, we know that the police capitulated to Islamists because they know that they are more likely to respond with violence. It wasn't because that the Macccab Tel Aviv fans were football thugs. In fact, in Amsterdam, there was explicitly a Jew hunt um when they had been there previously and there was basically made up evidence for the police to say that they should be banned. Um like there are so many examples of how the authorities have behaved in a way to make sure that Muslims in particular and we you know I would some people say you know certain communities or our multicultural communities don't get offended. We're specifically talking about Islamic communities. I mean, even the um the new uh the um premier of New South Wales in Australia, he said the quiet bit out loud um when he was asked about freedom of speech laws in Australia and he said, "Look, Australia doesn't have the same free speech laws as America because we want to keep together a harmonious and multicultural society." Now, that's what's going on here as well. Um and we are seeing blasphemy laws by the back door. I mean, the fact that the Batley grammar school teacher, for God's sake, is still in hiding because he showed a picture of Prophet Muhammad to a RE class specifically in a lesson about blasphemy. That teacher still has to live in hiding with his family 5 years on because of the death threats. And there was one of the other shocking cases was that young boy in a secondary school. He happened to be autistic. He had accidentally scuffed a Quran and he got for doing that. Um, when people found out about it, he got so many death threats. This is in Wakefield. Death threats against him. The mother went into the local mosque with a headscarf on. She wasn't a Muslim. And went and had to apologize to the local mosque and the imam there whilst a police officer sat next to her and she said, "I'm so sorry for how disrespectful my boy has been. She even promised to not press charges against the people who had sent her son death threats because she understood how disrespectful he'd been."
And a police officer sat there and just listened to all of this. And it was very clear who had the power in that scenario. And so of course the more people we have in this country that we bring in um who believe that it should be a criminal offense to offend the in the religion of Islam which 68% of British Muslims do think that and the stat for that is from the National Secular Society in 2015. So that came immediately after the Charlie Hebda attack and that was in 20 that was you know 10 over 10 years ago. If that is the case then if we are going to maintain peace and we know that there's also a significant you know also one in 10 British Muslims pled at the same time thought the organizations that published pictures of prophet Muhammad deserve and that was the literal question asked deserved to be attacked. Um then the police have a very difficult choice.
they either in order to maintain peace make sure that people do not offend Islam or they have to deal with the very tricky um force of Islamism in this country where there are people who are prepared to be violent if their religion is offended. So in that sense yes we are seeing a very different change in our politics as a result of a new religious idea and culture coming to this country.
I want us to get really specific with this and I want you to respond to all of that. But to aid this conversation, just chasing crystal clarity here with both of you, >> Sean, does everything that Connie just said show that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with a Britain that's not Muslim.
>> No, no. Um, is a direct question. I just answer it straight off the bat. Um, look, I actually say this with respect cuz we kind of bonded before the show. I do think a lot of like the stats and some of the depictions of some of the stories you're bringing up um is a bit disingenuous. Not maybe it might not be intentional.
>> Disinguous as in you think they're not true or >> Yeah. as in as in perhaps the the sounds the in no the incidences such as like I'm aware of the Quran burning things and things like that but for example the way you're talking about Macabby Tel Aviv they are well known to be football hooligans football thugs the Birmingham city council um decided not to to bring them in in in conjunction with the police in Birmingham that's not like an Islamist thing right that's just British society working as British society should right so but we put that to aside right I completely disagree with that and the evidence from Nick Timothy who was our shadow justice secretary proved the opposite. I mean there's a lot of the West Midlands police I think he had to resign over it. It was the um the chief the chief the chief constible in West Midlands resigned over it. He had to go.
>> Okay fine >> because he was questioned in parliament by Nick Timothy and other MPs.
>> Just cuz the shadow justice secretary like obviously says it doesn't really >> well he didn't say it. That's the evidence that they had to give forward proved that um the the supposed evidence they had for McCarvey Tel Aviv fans being thugs was not there and they basically fabricated it.
>> Okay, fine. So my last response, but obviously I know you're not going to agree with me like for the record and viewers can decide for themselves. Mabi Tel Aviv have a deep history of like quite literally ruining um the local areas that they go to and even in Amsterdam um as well. Um, so in terms of like this concept of the blasphemy back door, that's actually something I haven't really heard of before. I think you're the first person to really kind of bring that um to me. And um I suppose like look when so so so if we just trace it back why why do Muslims just get mad like this?
there's this books being burned cuz obviously naturally someone who's not a Muslim it's just a book right you shouldn't you know act in a certain way and the the book being burned and this is not to sort of um you know uh justify any of the responses that has happened but that book being burned um is of greater importance to the point where someone burning a Quran can never be a peaceful thing for example if there was a white racist man standing next to a black man and just started screaming the n-word at him right in his face. You could say that was peaceful because the violence does not extend into the material realm so to speak. However, it is an incitement to violence. And so, as someone who is British and a patriot, I like to consider myself a patriot, >> I have trust in the British justice system to actually, you know, um basically come down with the the decision that is fair. Now, of course, they're not always going to get it wrong, and obviously you've pointed out to some cases where you think they haven't got it they they got it wrong a few times, but again, bringing up like all these dotted different things a few times um doesn't convincingly paint paint the picture to me that there is a particular backdoor blasphemy problem.
Yeah. Um so, that's that. I also want to say that I think one of the frustrations that you're feeling which I actually think is quite valid um is perhaps the response to this right the response from the state and one of the interesting questions we can all ask it doesn't matter if where you're from on the political spectrum is like why is the response so lackluster because there's actually also examples of a lot of Muslim hate for example where actually the state hasn't um responded in a good way at all and it actually sort of um goes onto a whole topic which is to say that fundamentally the British state has been depleted of resources in the last 40 years right it has been completely emiserated we are the sixth wealthiest country in the world and actually a lot of our processes can't handle things like um the so-called migrant crisis and also um you know levying adequate justice now the ironic part is that when you look at the reasons why the British state has been depleted so much is because of an ideology of well thatcherism, conservatism. Okay. And so like I agree with you that fundamentally like there needs to be a better solution. But then once you start to I guess dissect the the sources of this present malaise we're in. I think there might be some contradictions within your own worldview because obviously you associate yourself with certain political parties and the likes on the right. Are you not party political?
Sure. I'm I'm sure obviously I am categorized as being on the right.
>> Yeah. My bad. Yeah.
>> There's also um this this thing here as well. So why why do Muslims get so mad or why do they do this? And actually like and you said like I know the theology. So like let me just be very clear and actually say what I think is a very mainstream point is that for example someone in this room right now burns the Quran. I'll probably try to stop them from doing it. I'm not going to like try to fight them to be honest.
I can't even fight anyways. But it's actually because what we're beefing and what we get mad at is something called fick, right?
Fick. Fick is Islamic Jewish prudence which has been established in multiple different contexts in multiple different countries throughout history and throughout different years. It has nothing to do with Islam itself. There's nothing in the Quran which says that someone's burning the Quran or doing something, you must attack them, do whatever, etc. Even much of that the disbeliever quotes for example that um you uh like mentioned for example um none of that like plays into the modern Muslim mind or most Muslims minds as a call to action as a call to transgress what much of our Judeo-Christian values are which is to say British common law right the John Short Mill harm principle of the idea that whether it works or not right every action is valid in so far as it does not infringe on another person's right okay or right to freedom and I think as a fundamental basis over these like because we taking it back to like the first topic of like how common law tradition how we've got to this stage that is the equilibrium we exist on so like I would actually say that many Muslims okay they would be in favor of people not transgressing those laws cuz here's another thick position as well and this is where it gets complex Muslims need to obey the law of the lands that they live in that is also another thing um that's very strong in the Muslim tradition Would you be in favor of Sharia law being rolled out across the UK?
>> Cool.
>> I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but tell me what Sharia is.
>> I'm asking you, would you want Sharia law?
>> No, but but the thing is Yeah. The reason why I'm asking you like or maybe you might want to come in and it's not a get get you question, but I promise you like wall. It's not. That's you know, I'm telling the truth. Yeah. It's just because I want to understand what you think Sharia is.
>> So, is anyone going to take because I know you probably say instinctively, I don't want law.
>> I know it probably. Yeah, absolutely.
But um >> I know that it's based on >> not just the Quran, but obviously the teaching of the hadith and Muhammad's life. Um and I know it's certainly not very good for women or gay people or um people who don't believe in Islam. Um >> uh well I mean the first pluralistic constitution in human history was actually written by the prophet. The constitution of the Medina Medina people can can check that. And in that sort of constitution, in the life of the prophet himself, Christians and Jews could live uh under their own laws and you know control their own lives under their own laws and their own local communities. So I'd say that that is definitely part of the tradition. Obviously there Islamic states and stuff throughout history history gets messy and actually yeah there will be like very bad places for anyone to live even Muslims themselves.
Actually much of the Muslim extremism that happens in the modern day not to digress a lot of the victims are Muslim as well. Okay. So, there's that.
>> I think the key point here is we can go into the specifics of Sharia law here, but I think what's more valuable to highlight is the fact that it would fundamentally undermine a nation's laws.
You would put the Sharia laws first.
>> No. So, that's the thing. There there's no such thing as Sharia law. That's what I'm I wanted to say. Sorry for taking so long. And the reason for that is because the Sharia, what that means is the divine path to water. Okay? It's God's guidance. Now, Sharia um might exist in the fact that I have to pray five times a day. I have to pay my zakat, which is 2.5% of my total wealth every year.
Don't like when that law comes around, but I still have to do it to charity, of course. Um and it's effectively a very eternal, unchanging thing, but it's very mysterious, fully known to God. Right?
It's at the principle level. It's at the level of principle. Do you know what another principle in the Quran is? That you should not impose your faith onto another person. Okay? That is a principle. It's not often practiced though, is it?
>> Well, I mean in some Muslim states like no, it's not.
>> Um, but actually >> or even in the UK amongst Muslim communities.
>> Well, what do you mean?
>> So, for example, the the Amadia Muslims in this country who are also at threat under threat such as that guy in Glasgow who was murdered by another Muslim. They are seen as blasphemous by other sects of Islam.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But then like for example like most Muslims allow them to coexist.
>> Sure. Most do. But at the same time >> most Yeah. Exactly. But then any but this is what I'm saying. Any universal theory or way of life.
>> I'm not saying it's universal. I'm saying it's there's a specific problem within Islam that you don't see in Christianity.
>> I think we're getting into the weeds here. But let me just let me just finish that quick pass.
>> But we're all going back and forth. You finish this and then I want to clarify a couple of things.
>> All right.
>> So that is what Sharia is. So there's no such thing as like do you want Sharia law? Yeah. To the Muslim mind.
>> Do you think Sharia law is a good thing under your understanding of it?
>> The Sharia is God's guidance and I'm a Muslim so I follow Sharia. Okay, that's always a good thing. But it's fick thick, right, is the interpretation by the human mind to take these principles into political practice. That is where there can be debate. That is where a lot of these kind of dodgy I mean we talked about on our own episode. That's where a lot of the dodgyness comes from >> um in the modern mind. And so actually there's a lot in the same way culture is like a like a sort of moving dynamic process. There's a lot of scholars nowadays rethinking and re understanding how to apply these principles into the modern world that wouldn't exist um obviously a couple hundred years back and so forth.
>> So I want to press you as well Connie, but there's just so much that's come out from this Sean that I want to clarify here.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> First of all, would you say that Sharia law never undermines another country's laws?
>> So it's No, I think I think Muslims can undermine another country's laws. Sharia is just like cuz I'm I'm being very academic right now, right? And I know that can be a bit tough because obviously we're talking about practice.
Yeah. But honestly like if I'm giving you the honest authentic answer like the the question would be like obviously Muslims can undermine uh a per particular country's laws but Sharia is at the level of like principle. So it's very like you'd have to give more specific question which part of Sharia might under undermine the law. For example, if they said that you had to ban Muslims praying five times a day, then there's quite clear that it is a conflict with Sharia, God's guidance.
Yeah.
>> So then you would put Sharia above the nation's laws.
>> Well, much of these like Sharia practices anyways are just very personal. And so like um I live my life first and foremost through divine guidance and through God's practice.
That is what most Muslims do. But actually um sometimes laws in the UK can obviously be very unjust. And if I believe logically speaking that Islam and Sharia because it literally comes from God is inherently perfect and is justice then naturally if there's a tension with some like UK law then logically it has to be unjust right but that's not like a very controversial thing to say. And actually I think in most Muslim practice as in in most Muslim daily lives it never arises because again we talk about common law and the tradition which shock horror a lot of it was taken from fick and a lot of it was taken from inspiration in the Sharia. It's true. You go to Lincoln's in um in London they have a mural of painting right up there is the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. They painted his face by the way but no one's attacking it right because and this is something people can look at. It's called the hemicycle of lawgivers. Um but let me not digress and obviously give you some >> I want to push you on this as well but second followup here. There's this narrative and kind of saying of Islam being spread by the sword whereas Christianity is spread by the word.
>> Would you say that individuals that have done that in the past and people who actively want to bring Islam to the rest of the world um through force or through other means are misinterpreting the Quran there. So the the Quran doesn't say anything about bringing um Islam to people through the sword. It's >> there is quite a bit of violence in there about non-believers though.
>> Well, I mean, if you're talking about violence in the Quran, you should look at the the New the Old Testament. That was probably the most violent thing um or violent piece of like the Abrahamic um you know, scriptures there are. I think when there was analysis as well, the Bible was much more violent than the Quran by >> obviously >> when in the lens of the New Testament and that was obviously very different to the Quran can never be changed because it is the final revelation of God.
>> Um so that is >> and so so what was your previous question? Go ahead.
>> So do you think that these people who would spread Islam by the sword are misinterpreting fundamental tenets of Islam there? Well, I think at the level of principle, yeah, there's great tension that arises. Obviously, even though I mean the concept of being spread by the sword, there's so much scholarship that's gone into it to say again is very sensational sensationalized idea of understanding history. I'm not saying it didn't happen historically of of course it did. Every ideology ever has been spread by some sort of sword. Whether you want to talk about Marxism, whether you want to talk about, you know, capitalist society as well, there's not a sword that you can see, but there's definitely harm that occurs.
>> Yeah. But we're talking about physical swords here. And I would say that Christianity was spread by the word, right? It was spread by missionaries going across >> crusades.
>> Didn't that happen after >> the Crusades were a return to the Holy Land rather than an initial spreading of the ideology or or the religion?
>> Well, I mean, look, if you're talking about violence and like sort of religious history, it's going to become a wormhole hole. Yeah. And I'm not the particular expert. I'm sure you guys aren't either. But all I'm going to say is that ultimately particularly in the modern world, particularly in the western context, particularly like in actually all contexts, there's no precedent and no Muslim should take it within themselves to think I have to like spread this thing by the sword. And if you look at when that became popularized and I'm not lying about this, it's a very modern thing. Okay, there's a great malaise that us Muslims need to work out, right? And it's like how did the tradition that I see with so much beauty, right? If you want to get the more understand what like what I align myself with is more of like a sort of tal with a Sufi understanding of Islam, okay, which is orthodox Islam, but there's been a great malays in our own community as well as many communities are. And so like just to be demonized all the time and then also like have this over your neck like there's a sword bad I guess um analogy.
Um it can be very tiresome. M. So based on what Sean said, do you think you're unfairly using a minority of Muslims to kind of weaponize an argument against Islam as a whole when actually it's it's not fair. It's not an accurate depiction.
>> Um I mean I think it goes without saying that I'm not generalizing as in everything every example that I have spoken to are unfortunately real and factual events. Um and they're things that we deal with all the time at the Free Speech Union. Um and actually what what angers me most about um this conversation, not I mean our conversation, I mean the general conversation about Islam is that many of the people who are most at risk of Islamist extremism like you pointed to earlier Sean are Muslims themselves. um mus uh people who are at most at risk from uh people be not being able to criticize Muslim practices uh often women when it comes to honorbased violence, FGM, forced marriage um when it comes to for example people who are leaving Islam. I mean one of our one of our Quran burner cases was a chap who fled Iraq um because he wasn't a Muslim.
He didn't he couldn't get on with it and he came here. He burnt a copy of Quran here. He was arrested by some Muslim police. He did it in Bradford of all places. um was arrested by some Muslim police officers and told that he'd committed a hate crime. And he said, "If I'd known, I thought I was fleeing Iraq so that I could be free to criticize Islam, but I've come to the UK." And now if and he actually said when we interviewed him, if the Labour government press ahead with the Islamophobia definition, which they would, he would look to claim asylum in America. So we now have people coming to this country including people like Hamoskin who um have fled Islamic countries to come here to now want to flee again because they are now still being persecuted for um offending Islam essentially. So it's not about generalizing. I I know very well that there are mo the vast majority of Muslims are not Muslims who are going to be violent towards anyone else for crit criticizing their religion. However, the Islamists have such grip on the whole of the Muslim community because it is so dangerous for those um westernized Muslims to speak out against the extremists.
>> I actually disagree that they have a grip. But sorry, carry on. Sorry.
>> Well, they're the if they don't have a grip, I don't know why it is that our CPS firstly charged Hammet with um insulting the institution of Islam. We managed to successfully defend him at the Free Speech Union. The CPS, sorry, he was convicted. Then we appealed the decision and then the CPS tried to overturn the acquitt. So the CPS really tried to go after Hammet. Um and I imagine it's because they were concerned that if Hammet was found not guilty, that might lead to people suddenly thinking, right, I'm going to go out and burn a Quran and they know what will happen. That will lead to violence on the street and burning a Quran. It was interesting that you compared it to someone shouting the N word, a black person to someone burning the Quran.
clearly someone is racially abusing a person in that situation. Whereas are you going to say that someone's abusing an idea? Because in a free society, you should be able to insult um and say offensive things about any idea whether it's Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
But it's only Islam that that it seems that the authorities are going after.
Another example would be Brody Mitchell.
He's a student at Royal Hol. He's not Jewish, but he's a Zionist. And he posts on social media about um campaigning against anti-semitism and um trying to show um the different perspective of what Israel is actually like in his eyes. And um at Fresh's fair, the president of the Palestinian Society, as he walked past, said, "Here's the wannabe Jew." And he turned around and he laughed and he said, "Um, oh, why are you wearing a tea towel?" Which she was wearing a kafir. The next day he got an email from his university saying he had to leave his accommodation and was being suspended within 48 hours because he called a kafir a tea towel. She has had no punishment whatsoever for calling him a want to be Jew. Not only that, but the CPS um uh the CPS we've heard from sorry police are considering charging Broady Mitchell with a hate crime for calling a tea towel sorry for calling a kafir a tea towel.
>> Was it a kafir or her hijab?
>> It was a kafir. Okay. but she was wearing it in a in a sort of bandana.
>> So, but even if it was a hijab, I think that people should be able to criticize practices of any culture or any religion. And at the moment, what we're seeing is I mean, you said earlier that the things I've said aren't evidence enough for you to think that there's sort of blasphemy creeping in British society. I would be interested to know what would have to happen for you to accept that there is an issue here in terms of Islamic, specifically Islamic blasphemy laws. is okay >> but yes I mean look >> what would have to happen >> yes what would have to happen >> well I think it's just because of my understanding of how power works in the country and that actually like a lot of Muslims they don't have like Muslims do not have power in this country right fundamentally put this way like actually 50% of Muslims in the country live on under or on the poverty line okay and actually the people who write the laws the people who um talk about um or the people have legal power our politicians etc They are I think it's actually in many ways a conspiracy. It sounds conspira conspiratorial that the institutions and the powers that be are in somehow cahoots with the Muslims.
>> Yeah, it does sound conspiratorial, doesn't it?
>> No. No, but as in like to to what extent because who who are they in cahoots with? Is it is it just this like fear of Muslims? Is that what you're saying?
>> I think that on one hand they are in cahoots in the sense that that and you can watch the video of it. a mother being taken to a mosque and a police officer sat there next to a mother and an imam not saying anything as a mom has to apologize to a congregation in a mosque and the imam um I think that was clearly obvious where the power was and it wasn't with the authorities um >> so so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so not not to cut you off but then obvious so these things happen right >> and I'm not saying these haven't >> but they're not my point is they're not isolated incidents I have given many many examples and so when you say generalizable that can still be generalizable because It's an Islam, isn't it? Because it's not radical Christians. It's not radical Jews who are um >> it's not that you haven't seen any >> Zionism is um the extension of like a radical understanding of Judaism. Right.
>> Sure. But to >> radical Christian saw last Saturday as well.
>> But have you seen anyone have to go into hiding because of death because of threats against their life because they've criticized Judaism or Christianity in recent years?
>> Well, it's not in this country. Yeah.
Well, the violence it might not sort of mirror onto it, but there's a lot of violence that happens um to a lot of Muslims in many other ways. Like >> No, no, that wasn't my question.
>> No, no, no. But as in just because I might not have seen the exact um >> I'm telling you cuz it's not happening.
As in >> No, but but then but that doesn't mean violence is not happening. Violence will happen.
>> Sure. But but I'm specifically talking about um Muslims being offended by people who offend their beliefs. I'm not, of course, and there are already laws that protect Muslims and every group of people um from from physical violence, from intimidation, from racism, but I'm specifically talking about people who criticize Islam. One one chap that we helped at the FSU, he was sacked because he called Hamas dirty terrorists. I mean, he literally lost his job. and Brody as well. Like there are students on campus who you know you can call a student a woman want to be Jew and nothing happened to you but the student who mocked your kafia is potentially being charged with a hate crime.
>> Last thing I say I go do it back and forth. There's obviously a bit of like a asymmetry of information here because a lot of the things you're talking about >> it's asymmetry of events.
>> No, no, but the information as in cuz I don't know the this particular summary of the facts of every single case. So I have to in this like situation just go what you're saying.
>> But one thing that we can do is if you want to stay in touch after this every time there's something that comes up like this right cuz I don't want to call you a liar. Yeah. But it might be the case I have a different perspective when these the summary of the facts come up where we can continue to discuss because then maybe this we >> just to clar sorry Elliot but just to clarify my point is there is clearly a problem within the Muslim population of this country and I won't say community because Muslims are of all different communities but the Muslim population in this country that means it's specifically Islam that the authorities know that if Islam is criticized then they are far more likely um to have to deal with violence and the police don't want to do that. And one of the examples would be for example at the United Kingdom rally people were arrested for holding signs that said Islam and there was a case where someone held had a t-shirt on that said Israel. They were arrested which and we def at the FSU we defended that person. It was wrongful arrest and they should not have been um pursued by police for saying that. And but in the same way that people shouldn't have been arrested for saying Islam. I very much would be surprised if someone on a different march would get arrested for saying Christianity because there simply is not the threat from radical Christians in this country who would want to go after that person and the police want to keep the peace. Unfortunately, they're now having to police in a context where we live in a multicultural society with these Islamic elements. That means that they're having to balance what's going on and it means that our freedom of speech is being celled because of Islam in this country. Would you accept Conny's claim there that there's a disproportionate threat of violence from the Muslims in this country versus radical Christians? Radical Muslims, not just all Muslims.
>> Um, versus Christians, do you say?
>> Would you accept her claim there that there's a disproportionate threat?
>> Well, it's so so obviously there's like a lot of like information that's that's sort of been thrown at me. And the question then is like therefore like is there enough evidence to to suggest that there is this kind of threat of harm from a a possible kind of a a Muslim contagion or something along those lines. Um I'm not convinced but I and I do think actually it might play into a bit of like a rationality around um uh like the Muslim communities in particular. Um but that's not to say like I I would want to close that conversation, right? Perhaps. Yeah.
But >> it's very important not to do that.
>> Yeah. And and actually I think a lot of like the Muslims that I look up to and the Muslim leaders I look up to in this country would actually say the same. I don't think I'm I don't want to pretend to be I'm a different Muslim. I I just follow the the Islam of like a lot of people here. Um >> so with everything you're saying here, >> what do we actually need to do going forwards to stop Britain being undermined? We've all been in agreement here that we're patriots and we're all British, right? So, if you're going to sit here and make these claims, and we're kind of running out of time here, >> what do we actually need to do rather than only lobbing allegations at specific groups or cultures or religions? What's the hands-on approach that needs to be done from here?
>> I honestly don't know. I think one thing that could start is by applying the law equally to everyone, and that's not being done at the moment. Um, certainly not from the cases that we see at the FSU. Um, So yeah, if the law was applied equally, then we wouldn't be seeing certain blas um blasphemy by the back door for certain religions and not others. Um so that's one thing. But in terms of I mean again all of these issues is as a result of mass immigration of new cultures and new ideas coming to this country and being very very different to the one that was already here. Um there needs to be and I suppose this is similar to being equal under the law. There needs to be some that we have to make people assimilate and there cannot be this idea that integration is a two-way street. If you're coming to this country and I I'm sure this would be accepted in any other country. If you are going to a new country, if I went to go and live in Spain, um I would very much expect to be expected to learn that language and assimilate into Spanish culture. Um and or any other country. And I know there are Brits who do who go there and don't do that. And I think that's wrong. Um, there needs to be an absolute requirement that if you do not come here, and it links back to what we started with, come here, assimilate, and replicate British culture and pass it down onto your children, then you should not be here. Um, and it's because we have allowed that to not happen that we now have the mess that we're in. And you know, unfortunately, just as mass immigration started, Europe in general had lost confidence in its culture. So there was nothing really for anyone to integrate into because there wasn't really a dominant culture. There was Christianity was on the decline. There wasn't one uh moral code that bound everyone together. And people who were coming here were coming from cultures where there really was a strong culture.
So they were able to come here um not really have anything to integrate into but then retain all of their culture and it was a very strong one. And then perhaps through the way that their families are made up and their kinship and bloodline um in the sense of for example very tight-knit families in terms of um cousin marriage that we've seen in this country that means that those cultures have remained very dominant and now we're living in a situation where um we have community living in parallel lives. So, I don't know if there's ever a way to go back to a time where we lived in a monoculture, which is what, you know, I'm all up for living in a multi-thnic society, for sure. But there's also that question of how can you really separate ethn ethnicity and culture? Um, but until we are able to make people assimilate, and if they do not, they have to leave. Um, because otherwise, and and I think that for people who don't, and maybe this sounds really patronizing, Sean, I don't mean it. I I just think that >> it's fine. speak the truth.
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you. I will. I'll speak my truth.
Yeah.
>> Um I think that many people and I would regard you of course as one of these people who hold British values, who understand how important it is to live in a country where uh freedom and equality before the law and the importance of our British freedoms and traditions um exist that >> it it people will look back and be very grateful that there were people saying the things that I'm saying. And that sounds really arrogant, but I'm not I'm extremely grateful that there were people before me who paved the way to allow people for me to say these things because I think a few years ago it would have been very difficult to say these things, but people have sacrificed a lot to be able to say this and I'm now able to say it and I would like to think in the future. It may hopefully it will never get to a point where things will get so bad that people will look back and think, I wish we listened to those people. Um but yeah, I think that if we don't seriously um knuckle down and do something about it, things are only going to get worse. Um, and that's when we will still start seeing serious unrest on the streets. So, I don't know what the proper solution is, but ultimately it's probably going to be a bit of containment and have to accept that what we've allowed to happen to this country is just going to be the way it is or we do something really sort of uncomfortable for some people. Um, so yeah, basically you have to assimilate if you come here. But we've allowed that to not happen and that's why we're in this mess.
>> Okay.
The way I see things, we're approaching a very, very difficult breakup where I genuinely think the way we're trending from what I've seen pragmatically, hands- on here, whether it's in line with scripture or not, >> Mhm.
>> Islam is going to keep on spreading and it's going to keep on being closer and closer to a dominant force in the UK.
And there are things that I've seen in my travels living in Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, which is much much more westernized, in Qatar, in Morocco, which is obviously a very different situation, but nonetheless Muslim. There are things that I don't like about those countries in terms of their moral principles and the way they approach rights humanity, what it means to be a man versus a woman, what it means to be gay or not.
And I would say again, rightly or wrongly, however they approach things, they do ground that in scripture, their interpretation of Muslim scripture.
>> And I'm I'm not a Christian here. Like I'm not religious, but I am a big fan of the Judeo-Christian values that have formed the West and what that's given us. I think this is a really important conversation to have. And at the moment, a lot of the discourse is exaggerated.
It's not where we're at with Islam. It is taking a minority of Islamists and portraying them as the majority, which is super unfair. And that's why I had you on my podcast the first time just as a solo guest was because it annoys me as someone who has spent so much time in actual Muslim countries that they often get mischaracterized and villainized really unfairly and frankly dehumanized.
But I also see that we're only trending in one direction and I don't think that's going to reverse unless >> drastic measures are taken >> and that's super tough. It it it doesn't feel like >> Can I come in on that? Yeah.
>> Yeah. It doesn't feel like there's a fair approach here. No matter what direction you go in, it's kind of just breaking down this myth of there ever being real nations or international law and going well ideology do you favor?
>> So what this year has been success successful for me personally. I did my two first lectures and the topic of the two first lectures was what does it mean to have a British Muslim identity. Yeah.
So our our communities are talking about these problems and these things and it's it's a real tension when you're faced with like actual kind of incidences of terrorism or like some of like the cases that you brought up like the grooming gangs and stuff to think like we are actually just somehow connected somehow like when I say Allah Akbar I mean something very different to that other man who means it other um Islamist who means it. And so actually like what I would say about the sens sensationalizing point is like not to get pessimist pessimistic because actually like instead of demonizing our communities why don't you just work together with us right work together with us to understand in a mutual because that's that's what human history is all about actually a process of mutual collaboration to understand okay there's a real tension right and then again not to get haggalen with it and stuff a thesis meets antithesis but what's born out of that is a synthesis okay and actually and actually like what the problem is with the uh I suppose the right the right-wing narrative or maybe some of the things you're saying not all the things some of the things you're saying is that this um present malaise that all communities find themselves in right which I think one of the big things we didn't talk about which is a bit sad is that you know I think the source of decline especially in Christianity in the west etc is cap is the rise of capitalism and capitalist forces even the kind globalist project which has meant that the rise of the corporation and the financialization therefore means that somehow England is interconnected with the with America and that the real power that the real sort of power that exists is within um these financial institutions which therefore make you know much harder to live exploding wealth inequality there's a whole avenue that we didn't actually discuss and of course there's perhaps pressure culturally um bu um that naturally logically would come with um like you know Muslims coming um Muslims sort of moving over um it was just the rise of multiculturalism generally speaking but the present malays we find ourselves in is not because of that okay there there's there's so many complex forces that have um led us to this point and this point in human history and actually instead of thinking that we can return to some sort of past to like a monoculture which is like to use your words I think that's just It's a myth of eternal return, right? The myth of eternal return is something that exists in so many different cultures. You know how many times I've been in like conversations with uh like Muslim brothers and Muslim sisters, they're talking about the golden age of Islam when once upon a time the center of the world was Baghdad, right? The the Western world was like nowhere to be seen, you know, and of course that nostalgia is something very human. Yeah.
But I think all we're talking about now is what it means to be human and the tensions that arise with different cultures that come together. But what we're seeing right Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what true patriotism is about. It's about bringing a sort of production, a productive conversation, a positive contribution, right? We can't keep defining English identity by what it not by what it isn't, right? We need to start saying what it is. And actually, in the last 20 years for those economic reasons, we I get it like I I feel like what does it mean to be British? Because we haven't produced anything, right? We're getting hollowed out year on year. Cost of living is affecting all of us. And so like there's a whole different paradigm and perspective which like what we do at Northstar um is what we're trying to push forward, right? We're very patriotic as like our sort of like identity, but there's a whole different perspective that we want to bring which is to say that yeah, maybe the left wing or whatever got some stuff wrong. Yeah, people might put us on that spectrum, but actually the the the notion that there is something it it the source of it, the source of the malaise is immigration, is new people moving over.
Um, it's not the whole truth. Actually, if you really want my ideas on immigration, I would entertain perhaps like slower movements of people, right?
Because the rapid expansion does definitely intensify um >> and assimulation. Pardon?
>> And prevent assimulation. Well, assimilation as well is a it's a two-way relationship.
>> No, I don't believe that at all.
>> Well, well, we cut funding for ESOL classes, English as a second language classes.
>> I think you in order to come here, you should all be you should already be able to speak the language. I don't think that I think we should be taking in not to get into a bit debate sorry Elliot but okay we should be taking in of course people who a small amount of people that we can help um who are fleeing war but the levels of immigration we've seen in the last 20 years they're not most people are not fleeing war who are coming here and it shouldn't be down to the taxpayer to have to pay for people coming to this country who cannot speak English if you want to come to this country and contribute the first thing you should be able to do is speak English is literally the bottom line of what you should be able to have in your sort what you can offer this country, at least being able to speak the language of the people.
>> One of the reasons so many people want to come to this country in the first place, and this is something I don't want to sound woke myself, even though I'm probably a bit of a wokey Islam leftist, is the fact that the colonialism existed. Colonialism was not so long.
>> And if you can speak English, sure, that's fine. But that was your example of why people can't assimilate. I don't think it should be down to the taxpayer to have to teach people English.
>> No. So my example, so I'm saying there's real his you talked about ancestral connection. Yeah. Whether you believe it or not, some people who can't even speak English, okay, or have bad English still feel some sort of ancestral connection to this country because their parents, their grandparents obviously had to deal with those tensions that arrived in colonial society. I don't want to even stay on the colonialism point, but that's just a fact of history. Okay. Now the the the the the real sort of frustration you have and I actually agree with this part is that like but why can't we cope with it? Yeah. Why is it that that we do have a very inefficient um like migrant process? Of course there's some people come over and um claim they're fleeing fleeing asylum and obviously just try and get the benefits they can. I think there's an inherent unfairness in that. But again we're the sixth wealthiest economy in the world. This is the thing and this is why we want to push political imagination at Northstar. We have the wealth to deal with it. So the question >> doesn't mean we should therefore have to do it.
>> No question the British people don't want it.
>> No, but the question becomes why haven't we dealt with it? What is going on with political decision-m at the top? Years of Tories, years of labor as well. Okay.
Which means that we can't deal with it and the political solutions that reform are putting forward or I mean restore but they're like whatever they are, right? It's not going to deal with it again because they're still part of the same rotten seed of thatcherism, neoliberalism. We need to look beyond that. We have the wealth to deal with it >> to deal with. So the everyone who wants to come here.
>> Yeah. Like well not everyone who wants to come here but actually like have a good system. So cuz the the it's a procedural question. Why can we not figure out if this person is actually like you know fleeing properly, right?
Um and so like we should have like basically the resources exist but where do they sit? They sit in assets. They sit in Canary Warf. They sit with financial elites. Okay. the marginal propensity to consume for a migrant boost the economy. That's why so many of these economic stats um are so um like in favor of immigration boosting the economy because if I'm a migrant, I don't have much money and I get a pound.
I'm probably going to spend most of that pound in the local economy anyways.
Whereas if I'm a very rich person, my marginal propensity to consume of one pound is very very low. I'm just going to put it in assets and let it build up.
What do you think the criteria should be for someone to be allowed into the UK and be made a British citizen?
>> It's a good question. I probably don't have the answer to that right now.
>> And do you think we're focusing too much on migration instead of economics and capital?
>> I think the two are connected. I think the two are connected. I mean, >> they are. They are.
>> Um I agree.
>> And one of the reasons why we've had so much immigration is because um our governments over the last 30 years have relied on cheap labor. Instead of investing on people who are already here, um we're relying on people who have had trained to be nurses, for example, carers in the country of origin. We've not spent that money on them and they're coming here already trained. Um maybe not to the same standard as they would have been if they were to be trained in Britain, but they still have they're still trained. Um and so, so that's one of the reasons why we've had so many people come here. But at the same time, we also know that unemployment rates for young people are exceptionally high. I think it's about 15% unemployment um at the moment.
>> Not sure, but yeah. I would have to check that but is exceptionally high and the rate at which people are leaving this country young people leaving this country such as yourself Elliot is exceptionally high and the people leaving will be very talented people that we have not prioritized here so I think that if we didn't rely so much on cheap cheap labor basically coming to this country there would be more opportunities for British people for example people who are training to be doctors I know that Katy Lamb MP has done some excellent um um urgent questions or parliamentary questions about why is is that there are so many British students who train to be nurses or doctors and then cannot get a job in this country even though they're trained here.
>> So why are all the news headlines the Islamification of the west? Why are we so focused on that far restore whoever low why are we speaking about that so much rather than the economics that's a good question >> because um >> people are seeing such rapid change of their communities. I mean, I've my personal experience has been growing up in quite a leafy um rural area of England and SuffK and what that what it looks like when you go there is what you would picture when someone says England.
The the fields and this the community church and you go into the pub and you know everyone if you don't know them they'll know your parents or your grandparents. Um, and that's how I remember growing up and then going to university in Leeds, obviously much more multicultural, coming to London. When I hear that someone when I say to someone, where are you from? They say from London. Like, what? You're from London?
And it's a white British person my age.
I'm like, you are actually from London.
That is insane to me. I it's really a weird concept to me that there are people my age who are actually from London whose parents were here as well whose grandparents were here because of the rapid pace of demographic change in this country. That's why people are so concerned about immigration. One of the reasons because they are liter I mean I know what it's like coming to London getting on a bus and not hearing anyone else speak English. lots of people on their phones to someone or talking to each other in a different language and that is also going if you can't if everyone isn't always communicating in the same language then your high trust society which we used to have built on communities where you did know the people in your community you knew your neighbor that now doesn't happen anymore I've come to London and often at times it doesn't feel like I'm in England because there are people who are just speaking entirely different languages that I and I and it feels was like I'm like the honest reaction is this is my country where the common langu where the language is English yet I don't feel like I'm in England and it feels like having lived in a very rural English town where immigration hasn't impacted it coming to London where I think white people now make up 40% of the population it feels insane and I think that's what people in sort of the last 30 years so when you see people at the United the Kingdom rally these are people who have seen this change happen in real time against their will. Every election we've had over the last 30 years after Tony Blair who opened up the borders in 2015 Cameron said he would reduce immigration sorry 2010 to under in the to the tens of thousands. He didn't do that. He won again in 2015 bringing down immigration.
He didn't do that Brexit vote that was a vote on immigration and Boris Johnson and then won the election based on the fact that he was going to get Brexit done. People thought that would stop migration. and it did from Europe by quite a bit but not from other places in the world. So the the British public the polling as well of the British public from I think about in was in about the '9s where about 3% of people thought immigration was an issue to to in the 2010s 50% of people thought it was an issue but more and more immigration was happening. So it's because people have seen it happen over their own lifetimes and they feel very uncomfortable with it and I don't think that you Sean would accept in any other country that the population the native population who don't want something should have to put up with it because people are seeing their own culture being eroded in front of them.
>> So um but then like having a guy have bacon on his shoulders and playing the cello is not going to solve that. But I said that no but no no but I'm just saying like as in that's how farical it is to see there are real um you know real emotions it might offend you but no no but like how you can't even defend that because then that also trivializes the problems that these British people are feeling right because a lot of what you just said can be attributed to the the emiseration of workingclass people across the country and obviously Mostly working-class people are white. This started happening under Thatcherism.
There's so much literature about it.
Okay.
>> Sure. But mass migration hadn't happened at that. So I'm >> No, but neoliberalism functions off mass migration and mass immigration. That's how it works. Sure. So all I'm saying right and the reason why I brought up that kind of trivial example is to say like there's so much like obvious mashallah as I say, you're a very eloquent person. There's so much real um pain that that you're articulating on behalf of so many people across the country. But then Tommy Robinson comes around with a random Israel flag with him as well and also starts to talk about how like Islam is the problem.
Islam is the problem. Then all of a sudden you have him saying f Islam. We want to get rid of Muslims. You have >> he didn't say get rid of Muslims.
>> Oh I mean tantamount to it but fine whatever whatever the sorry I don't want to get sued but whatever he said he said right. Well you did say f Islam or you would get rid of Islam in the country. I think that's pretty much the same as saying get rid of Muslims. I don't know how that would be much different. But anyways, that whole parade he put on, okay, does nothing productive productive to help elevate the condition of working-class cast people in this country.
>> Have you been to any Palestine marches?
>> Yeah, of course.
>> So, what's productive about that for people in Gaza?
>> Um, we put pressure on the government to to change their position on the >> genocide. That a march like what happened in London last weekend is putting extreme pressure on the government.
>> But like for what? But what's the demand? Because this is the thing. The march was defined by an by an aggregation of things. It's not. They said f Karmama, right? They said f Muslims. Um >> I mean it clearly did put the amount the response from Karma before it even happened. Clearly it's had quite a big effect.
>> So I want us to get back to the main conversation here which is being British being a patriot and the future of Britain for us as Gen Zers because we're all here as British patriots that want to see our country thriving. Right.
Let's end by going through Connie, starting with you.
>> What's been the biggest change in your perspective during this conversation?
um not necessarily changed, but I mean first of all I don't think I was going to change my mind and I doubt you would have either Sean but I I love hearing it's very good practice and also testing my ideas and being able to come back to >> sorry not to cut you off but it's a very British thing to do to get around the table have conversations >> but it has reminded me that the message about um freedom of speech in this country is probably still not cutting through because I I don't know what more I could say to make you think there clearly is an issue here.
>> Um so that makes me so because a lot of the time I'm surrounded by people who feel the same concerns as I do whether it's my colleagues or my friends. Um so that has >> yeah that's um maybe given me something to think about. And ending on this for you, what would your prediction be of what's actually going to happen for us?
I know this is a super hard question for all of us to ask because we're in our early 20s here and we're not oracles that can predict the future. What do you think is going to happen with our generation in terms of our approach to immigration, what we do with it with Christian values, Islam, and patriotism as a whole?
Um I think that well I'd say that the Gorton Denton bi-election was quite a clear indicator of what the next general election is going to look like. Um and we saw that also at the local elections with a few exceptions from Labor retaining and um conservatives as well and actually gaining some councils. But um in terms of young people's attitudes towards it, I think that um obviously many people go to university are much more left-leaning. Um I would argue because of this the way that you are taught um and what happens if you don't go along with that. I know what that's like. Um and also the fact that I think we will see a massive gender divide. I mean I know that like to generalize lots of young people are going to the Greens politically but if you look at the um gender split there is quite a big division between young men going to reform young women going to the Greens.
Um, so I think at some point in order to in order to sort of, you know, young men and women are going to have to come together at some point if we're going to sort of reproduce. Um, and I know we've spoken about this before, but um, some people are going to have to >> are now going to have to um, find their way past political differences because I know that and I would find it difficult myself um, being able to be married or have children with someone who strongly disagrees with me politically. And I think that is going to become a huge issue. So again, it's quite difficult to predict, but I think that maybe it will be a matter of sort of um survival of the fittest or natural selection where um yeah, the way that we our generation carries on and our and our children.
Well, yeah, maybe at the moment it looks like it's going to be defined by your um political identity rather than your your nationality, for example.
>> Sean, biggest thing you maybe changed your mind on this conversation?
>> Fine. Um, yeah. Again, I mean, obviously like change your mind. It's not going to happen in one conversation. Um, I do think it was interesting how you brought up the backdoor blasphemy stuff.
>> I feel like some I'm someone who does stay on top of the news. I kind of have to in the dayto-day. Um, but it is it's not a way that it's been articulated it articulated to me before. And I do wonder if there's any credibility in the claim that police decision making um is actually um determined by their belief on like trying to basically control safety or like prevent something from happening which I think um as an attitude even if like that's not the case is something that like the British Muslim community can talk about. I think I think that would be interesting. Um so that was probably like the thing where I thought okay there's there's something new here. Um and so I always try to be intellectually honest and I hope um that was an example of it. Is there another question as well?
>> Yeah. What do you think's going to happen going forward?
>> What do I think is going to happen going forward? I'm very um optimistic about young Muslims, you know, the the children of like the kind of economic marriages who came over. I think some some of them are bringing buildings some of the most impressive things I've ever seen across all sectors. Um, so there's very impressive doctors, there's some very impressive lawyers, there's very impressive tech people. And so, um, I think there's definitely going to be a real revival of, um, sort of Islamic based thought that imbuss their practices. But what does that mean?
Well, say he is one. The oneness of God, believing purely in one God, um, is is a belief that actually like if the oneness of God, the oneness of God must reflect the oneness of creation. And that's a fundamental call to humanity. And so I'm very um impressed by a lot of the young Muslims I see in terms of like why I did politically. Look, reform are probably going to get into the next election. And I think most definitely they're not going to help the current malayise or the condition of the working class. And when people realize that for themselves, Northstar politics will be talking about how that's not happening. Um and you know hopefully that can help um make people realize that actually there there's a bigger fish to fry here which is financialization neoliberalism and the rise of taking on um this a very elite class. Um and so I think people will realize that for themselves but there will be a couple more years of malaise before that.
>> Well thank you so much both of you for coming on and having a a civil discussion. I appreciate us getting around the table and discussing different ideas and passing it out. I think this is the only way forwards. No matter what happens from here, it's through conversation and iron sharpens iron. So, the best ideas will come out on camera and I think people can make up their minds, especially when no one else is really talking about this in our generation. So, thanks for coming on.
I'll leave the links in the description to all your stuff and we'll see you in the next
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