How the FIFA world cup will harm sex workers in Vancouver and beyond - with SWAN - TWB Ep 32

Added: 2026-05-23

[00:00:00]Hi, I'm Lucy Huxley. I'm a [ __ ] And welcome back to my bedroom. Today I am in Vancouver, Canada. And I am joined by Crystal from Swan Vancouver, which is a local nonprofit. Um, thank you so much for joining me.

[00:00:13]>> Yeah, thank you so much for for having me here. I appreciate it.

[00:00:17]>> Can you give us a brief introduction of yourself and of Swan?

[00:00:21]>> Yeah, so my name is Crystal. I'm the communications manager at Swan Vancouver. Uh so generally uh my role is to do public education, advocacy and fighting misinformation as well too. Um Swan has been around for getting close to 25 years now. So we specifically support immigrant and migrant women and gender diverse people who do indoor sex work. Uh we started um in 2002 as a community health initiative uh pilot project where um our volunteers went into the massage parlors and they found out that women just had um a slew of questions about immigration safety in Canada as you know we have the Nordic bottle so sex workers themselves are immune from prosecution for selling their own services but um there's a little known immigration regulation as well too that particularly impacts our community. So, if you're a temporary resident, maybe you're on a visitor's visa, um worker visa, student visa, you're uh banned from doing sex work.

[00:01:30]So, if you're just found to be doing sex work, you could be arrested, detained, and deported. So, if you can think about, you know, on top of the barriers that women face because of Canada's sex work laws, there's this second layer of criminalization where it's even harder to call police, right? Because, you know, even if they're robbed or attacked on the job, um, you know, there's already those barriers, but they could just be um detained and deported if they make a police report and police decide to enforce immigration rules. So, um, that's the population that we support.

[00:02:07]>> Is there any other job that's not allowed like in these situations for people who who are here on a temporary visa or is it just sex work that they can be like um kicked out for doing?

[00:02:19]>> I'm not sure. You know, that's a good question. And it's it's really interesting because at the bottom of a lot of people's like like um work visas or temporary visas, you could see um that people are banned from working for any establishment that includes like massage parlors, stripping, and sex work.

[00:02:41]>> So anything even adjacent to sex, they can't work at a strip uh like a strip club either.

[00:02:44]>> Yes.

[00:02:45]>> Crazy.

[00:02:46]>> Yes.

[00:02:46]>> Wow. Okay.

[00:02:46]>> Yeah. And then like it doesn't specify like what type of um role they were playing, right? So when I found out about this, I was like, "What? So they can't even like mop the floors at a strip club?"

[00:02:57]>> Yeah. Like even just like be a bartender or like at a strip club or like >> Yeah.

[00:03:01]>> Like a receptionist at a massage parlor or >> Yeah. Yeah. And then and then that's um another thing too is like a lot of the community that we support, they can also be receptionists who like don't actually provide the service themselves but are criminalized in these ways as well.

[00:03:15]being involved in the business >> being involved and because you know like they could be charged criminally with advertising material benefit but then also they are technically engaged in sex work as a receptionist.

[00:03:27]>> Amazing.

[00:03:28]>> Who also provides security and checks IDs and takes payment and like contributes to the safety of the business as well too. So those people are also criminalized. Yeah, that's something I've spoken a lot about on the podcast about the Nordic model and about um how especially in Canada like anyone who is helping a sex worker in any way like with safety or like money or housing, they're criminalized under the Nordic model.

[00:03:51]>> Yeah. And what we find over the years in these massage parlors as well and other indoor sex work venues is that um their strength in numbers. So, if you know, maybe somebody um has had an interaction with police and decided, you know, they're not going to work at that massage parlor for a little while and maybe just go work independently in an apartment. You know, that could be somebody that's maybe the person that recognizes the bad client and can flag it for other people. And then generally if there is violence or some sort of commotion or a problem with a client, there's like more people in the massage parlor >> to confront that person to try to kick them out, right? And like whether they're security or just like women working in the massage parlor, too.

[00:04:36]>> What are the laws around massage parlors here? Like are they legally allowed to offer any sexual services or >> So they vary based on municipality. here in Vancouver they're called health enhancement centers and generally the rules for uh the bylaws around that are like not that strict right and and that's you know considering the fact that you know people will be working here and like creating more barriers for regulations and bylaws uh might deter them from working in a safe the safest place to do sex work which is indoors.

[00:05:10]We have, you know, just another city that we did advocacy in in Richmond in the last couple years. So, they have restrictions, you know, based on like the kind of window coverings that you can have. Doors can't be locked.

[00:05:25]>> What?

[00:05:26]>> Yes. Hold on. Hold on. So, me, say if I were working at a massage parlor in Richmond, I could be uh the business could be fined because of what I'm wearing right now. What what's wrong with what you're wearing?

[00:05:40]>> The bylaw is that uh you have to have clothing covered and it can't be translucent and it should cover you up until the neck down to the elbows and over to the knees. And this is a bylaw that has been in place for I I want to say 20 years or or so. Like we have spoken with the city of Richmond about how these are outdated about how you know if you walk into any Earls or or Cactus Club like there's no dictating what women are wearing.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:13]>> Right. So >> and that's really conservative that you have to have like a high neck like it's not just like oh like your genitals and like nipples need to be covered. Like that's like really >> No, it's like it's like 25 degrees out and I want to wear shorts, right? Like >> and like not a turtleneck like >> Exactly. Okay. So, so these are um laws or or bylaws I should say that um were enforced and like Richmond I think it was two years ago one of the city councilors there decided that he didn't like massage parlors because he doesn't like sex work and Canada's not ready to accept sex work. Um, so he encouraged bylaws to do checkups and they ended up doing raids and this is the kind of uh bylaws that they were enforcing. There were tickets handing out for the way women were dressed.

[00:07:00]>> So do they get fines for being dressed inappropriately?

[00:07:04]>> Uh, the business gets fines.

[00:07:05]>> The business does. But if you can imagine the fines can just be stacked and stacked and stacked in a way that it makes it difficult for the business to operate and if they're shut down then like the safe place for all these women to operate is is no longer existent right because >> I think because of the way women were dressed and then also uh they require the um workers to register with the city.

[00:07:33]>> Okay, that's so similar to what we have in Germany. in Germany, you have to register.

[00:07:36]>> Yeah. And that's and um there's only like um you know there so there's all sorts of reasons why you wouldn't want to register and have your legal name and like go in person to city hall and be like I work at this place, right?

[00:07:50]>> For an immigrant woman, they can't because they're not legally supposed to do that.

[00:07:53]>> Yeah. So there I mean there was a lot of tickets for that too, but like it it varies from city to city.

[00:07:59]>> Okay.

[00:08:00]>> Yeah.

[00:08:01]>> Crazy. I know. I just need a second to like >> I'm still thinking about like the clothing thing like that's like really nuts.

[00:08:09]>> Yeah. And you're like what what are what are you wearing that's inappropriate?

[00:08:12]Right. I'm like my clavicle apparently like >> gonna going to ruin the city by women showing their clavicles in in massage.

[00:08:24]>> Um yeah. So one of the main things I want to get into today is FIFA >> and how that's going to affect the city and sex workers. Before we get into that, I want to talk more about um kind of set the scene for what's already happening in Vancouver. Um we obviously just touched a bit on the basic laws, but kind of like yeah, more recent events and how things are already starting to be affected and changed and um there's been a lot of loss of funding for sex workers recently.

[00:08:52]>> Yeah. So um Vancouver as you know and and sort of BC has been considered for a while as like more of a progressive jurisdiction on sex work. So the city of Vancouver has its uh sex work uh safety guidelines.

[00:09:09]Local police including the Vancouver police have their sex work enforcement guidelines although those are also changing. Um but that came at a incredibly high cost. Right. there was a serial killer who uh prayed upon women in the downtown east side including uh a number of sex workers and indigenous women and because of that case and the colossal failures of Vancouver police and all these institutions that's why um a lot of these like forward progressive policies came into place and also with the work of um the families of missing murdered women and then also So um the work of uh uh sex work advocates.

[00:09:55]>> So in the last few years we've really seen like this kind of slow withdrawal and clawback of a lot of those policies and a lot of the resources to for the sex work support organizations.

[00:10:09]>> When did those like positive policies and resources start? Like when did around when were things kind of starting to go in a more positive direction? I would say, you know, this kind of follows like years of deadly violence and also the court cases for the serial killer, but one of the kind of the the main trigger points was uh the forsaken report, the report on the missing um women's commission of inquiry.

[00:10:38]>> So, it looked at like what happened in that case and made recommendations.

[00:10:44]>> Okay. And when was that report? Oh, I would have to get back >> around when like was it 10 years ago or like >> something like that?

[00:10:51]>> I can actually just Google it.

[00:10:52]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:10:53]>> Right now.

[00:10:54]>> Okay. So, the Forsaken report was 2012.

[00:10:57]>> So, in that report is where you see some of these policies, right? Like um there is a specific recommendation for the city of Vancouver to implement and fund to uh sex work safety social planners.

[00:11:11]Um there's recommendations there about um sex work enforcement guidelines for different municipalities and police jurisdictions as well too. Um what we just found out I think about a month ago or so is that the city of Vancouver eliminated one of the two sex work safety planner positions as well. Um, and this also follows, you know, late last year, the provincial budget recommendation report was the first time in years that we didn't see any recommendations for sex work support organizations.

[00:11:44]>> Oh, really?

[00:11:45]>> Yeah. And then also at the same time, there was recommendations for increase in anti-trafficking initiatives and police uh resourcing for those initiatives as well too, right? And anti-trafficking usually ends up meaning anti-ex work like it's >> Yeah. I mean >> that's really what they're going >> and and that's and it's kind of playing out very clearly.

[00:12:10]>> It's happening already. Yeah.

[00:12:11]>> Yeah. So like for a long time uh the women that Swan supports were considered to be like the quintessential trafficking victim because they were immigrant migrants. A lot of the people that we support are are generally East Asian. Um, so it's easy to like lean into some racist tropes about them being really docile and e easily tricked and they're immigrants and they have no agency. It's kind of moved toward now like anybody can be trafficked. It's like >> Yeah.

[00:12:41]>> But like the kind of like overall story, but that's been being told in the media >> is Yeah.

[00:12:46]>> Yeah. I kind of just also want to circle back to the fact that um one of the two um what's the term for the role? The sex work city planners.

[00:12:56]>> Sex work social planners.

[00:12:57]>> Sex work social planners. That one of the two was cut like because that happened so recently that so many sex workers were murdered.

[00:13:06]>> Like we have this like clear example in this city of what can happen like women being murdered and it was only it's only it's been less than 15 years since the report was made. Um, and now they're just cutting getting rid of that.

[00:13:20]>> Yeah.

[00:13:21]>> Because they don't care. Like it's like they don't care if more of us get murdered.

[00:13:24]>> Well, like essentially >> we have an unfortunate amount of evidence here in Vancouver too, right?

[00:13:30]Like there's the court cases. Like there's the families who have talked about their loved ones. There's the Aisha Project which interviewed 900 plus sex workers over like multiple years. is like there there's no more need for any further inquiries, evidence, studies, court cases. And like this is also just like the reality that we're living in today as well too. Um there has been like really serious cases of violence.

[00:14:00]Um there have been been deaths among a number of communities as well too. They may not be as highprofile, but they're still happening and that's still the reality that um a lot of the communities that we support are living in today. So the violence is still happening. It's just maybe not as high profile.

[00:14:18]>> Yeah. It's not like one massive case.

[00:14:20]>> Yeah.

[00:14:21]>> In the media. It's just like small things.

[00:14:23]>> And so um so that maybe the political will is not there when there's not this public pressure and it's not in the news cycle every day.

[00:14:31]>> What? And so the sex work city planner, what exactly was that role? Like what did they offer to the community? Yes.

[00:14:38]>> Or there's still one left.

[00:14:39]>> There's still one. Um but but the forsaken report did ask specifically to for two and to fund two as well. Um and and they were really like advocates for sex workers within the city. Um they were our connection to the institution.

[00:14:56]you know, even if they are if the city is it was redeveloping one of our major um entertainment districts, Granville, right? So, they make sure that sex work input is included in that.

[00:15:08]Um but they also do like very tangible things like they're a liazison between sex work organizations and the police.

[00:15:16]you know, SWAN, one of the things that we often ask for and all the other organizations are um uh cell phones, just emergency cell phones for when there's a case of violence and and people just need a a cell phone with a SIM card, right? That is something that um Vancouver Police Department is supposed to provide and when they can't, the sex work planners will give them a good >> nudge for us, >> right?

[00:15:43]>> When we need some of those emergency resources, too. So it's it's a role that's like they're a liazison. They work on systemic issues very but also very like tangible issues.

[00:15:53]>> Yeah.

[00:15:54]>> Okay. How do you like how do you guys predict things going forward with with one of those positions being cut?

[00:16:03]>> Um I don't know. It's it's just it's really hard to say. Um, it's it's it's one of a number of things that are all happening at once that it's almost like you could see like the walls being teared down, right?

[00:16:19]>> When you're in our position and and generally there's been like a reduction in funding and and there's been, you know, some difficulties that some of uh sex work organizations in Vancouver have had to like pause their operations temporarily and restart. Um so a lot of us are focused on um responding to the increasing violence and at the same time we have to do this advocacy to keep just the remaining uh policies and initiatives in place like we don't we're kind of like bursting at the seams right now. I was going to say it sounds like it's like coming from all sides like there's increasing violence so you have to do more work on that and then you have also have to advocate to continue to receive funding and like for change in policy and there's less people helping you do the adv advocacy.

[00:17:10]>> Yes. I I could say like the last month or two has been the busiest for Swan since at least I've been here for since 2023. And like generally the last year um as you said like the increasing violence we've have we have like an abuser alert system which is kind of like a bad date alert system. Um those are up. Assaults that required hospitalizations are also up too. And then as I said earlier, because migrants in particular, they don't want to have any interactions at all with police, that means that even if they need emergency care and need to go to the emergency room, they won't, right? So, we're thinking of um doing like wound care training with the women because we know that they don't call police, they run to a friend, they run to a neighbor, they hide in stairwells if they're attacked or robbed on the job. So >> it's really heartbreaking.

[00:18:08]>> Yeah. Um and and like I know people like think about that as like a extreme and that's like oh that that's happened. I'm like no that like continuously happens like the hospital can be a scary place because if somebody if they're there because of police reports the expectation is that police will arrive and we'll ask questions.

[00:18:28]>> You will question them and then find out about their immigration status.

[00:18:32]>> Yes.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah.

[00:18:34]What are some other things besides the cutting of the city planner position that have been happening in Vancouver in the last few months?

[00:18:43]>> Yeah, I think you know it kind of started about a year ago where um the provincial government and the BCRCMP um announced uh a counterhuman trafficking unit. Um that immediately became a cause for concern for a lot of the sex work organizations and even some anti-trafficking organizations and sexual violence organizations because historically and presently in in other jurisdictions as well too these human trafficking units have just been used to crack down on sex work.

[00:19:17]>> Yeah.

[00:19:18]>> Um and >> they don't make any distinction between sex work and human trafficking. And there also is not always such a clear distinction as people think that there is.

[00:19:29]>> Yeah. And like I have actually like leading up to this announcement I have been tracking police news releases from like across Canada um from RCMP and police human trafficking units. And generally what you see is they have headlines and announce human trafficking um charges or in operation. And then if you look at the charges, they're like obtaining sexual services, which is purchasing, or they arrested a sex worker for advertising somebody else's services, right? That they're all sex work laws.

[00:20:03]>> Yeah. They're not actually like arresting anybody who's like trafficking people into the country. It's nothing to do with that. It's just around sex work.

[00:20:13]>> Yeah. And and generally um like if you if you look at it like a the general charge like the baseline charge it would be like trafficking persons which is like very serious multiple years for like first offense obtaining is in Canada which is like purchasing sexual services is um a fine on the first offense right and it's gen that's adults trying to have sex with other adults right um and it creates also this perception that trafficking is happening because police have all these news releases about a trafficking bust. Um, so that's what we kind of came into the past year and this announcement thinking, you know, that this there's a there wasn't enough stats to back up that there were like trafficking was of cause of concern in British Columbia.

[00:21:02]And it hasn't even been a year. And in early March, the BCRCMP human trafficking unit conducted an operation in Richmond again and they basically just posed as sex workers and arrested like clients.

[00:21:19]>> They arrested them.

[00:21:20]>> They arrested them. Um, from as far as I know from the news release and some reporters who asked, there were no charges laid.

[00:21:28]>> Okay. Wow. What a great use of funding.

[00:21:30]>> Yes. What?

[00:21:33]So, do they have undercover cops like actually pose as sex workers?

[00:21:37]>> Um, yeah, that's according to like the the reporters that they they spoke with.

[00:21:43]>> Um, >> and what did they accomplish? Like, >> well, they made everything more dangerous for everybody working there.

[00:21:50]And like on top of this context of of Richmond that had these municipal bylaw raids too, you've made an already um more dangerous place for people to work even worse.

[00:22:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Like now clients are obviously going to be more scared.

[00:22:04]>> Yes.

[00:22:04]>> To see workers and that fear is always passed on to the workers. Like they're the ones who have to manage >> Yeah.

[00:22:10]>> the fear.

[00:22:11]>> So you get, you know, maybe some rush transactions between clients and and workers themselves. I know for us um we do outreach in Richmond regularly. So you know, we contact people by phone, by text, and we'll say, "Hey, we're coming on on this day. um like how much safer sex supplies do you need or do you have any other questions? And then this operation happened and then by the time outreach day came, we had so many no-shows, so many people not answering their phone and in some cases like maybe like a friend coming outside their apartment to pick up the actual supplies, right?

[00:22:50]>> Because they're scared. They're afraid and now they're >> becoming more dist from their services too, right? So, you know, this might just be a drop off of condoms and lube, but in an emergency like they're they're they're still like disconnected, right?

[00:23:08]So, this is what it's caused.

[00:23:14]>> This is a bummer of it.

[00:23:21]It's a real bummer. It's really >> I mean the last the last episode I recorded for the podcast was about the kind of current situation in Germany and that was that was a bummer.

[00:23:33]>> Okay.

[00:23:34]>> But like it wasn't as much of a bummer as this.

[00:23:36]>> Yeah. Sorry.

[00:23:38]>> It's not your fault.

[00:23:39]>> No. The Canadian government that needs to apologize like >> it just Yeah. It's just the way things are rolling out like just really quickly and and you know, one of the things in that news release from the BCRCMP unit, it's it's really funny because it's not funny at all. It's not funny at all. I just have no trauma reaction anymore.

[00:24:00]That word, but they said the quiet part out loud.

[00:24:05]So the inspector in the RCMP unit said, you know, we did this to to um decrease the demand for sexual services and sex work is harmful. I'm like, oh, that's you know, >> he just said that.

[00:24:19]>> Yeah. Um they're quoted in their the news release on their website on in this and and in multiple reports, right? I'm like, oh, you didn't even try to use the tactics of other police departments across the city.

[00:24:32]>> You just said it.

[00:24:33]>> Yeah. Crazy.

[00:24:36]So with all that kind of as the current situation in Vancouver now FIFA >> is coming, the FIFA World Cup. Vancouver is one of the host cities. Um and I think most people in the media in connection with big sporting events like this, you always hear about how any city that hosts these events is going to become a trafficking hot spot. Like that's something that I learned I think from when I was a teenager and like watching the Super Bowl watching news about the Super Bowl on TV and there's like news reports about how like the Super Bowl is like the traffic the sex trafficking event of the year and how like women should watch out so that they're not kidnapped like this really um crazy fear mongering.

[00:25:15]>> Yeah. Um, so Vancouver is hosting seven games over like four weeks. And you know, we saw this also like during the Olympics in the Vancouver 2010 Olympics where I think um one of the social workers described it as anti-trafficking groups and some faith-based organizations wanted to raise the hysteria around sex trafficking in order to abolish sex work. So >> it's used as like a tool to get what they want essentially. Yeah.

[00:25:44]>> Like sort of like a hidden agenda.

[00:25:47]>> So in 2010, we saw groups doing prayer walks outside of strip clubs.

[00:25:55]There's more, Lucy. I'm sorry.

[00:25:58]Are we going to make it >> prayer walks? Wow. Wow. Incredible.

[00:26:06]>> Prayer walks to stop sex trafficking.

[00:26:09]>> Wow. Um, one of the campaigns that actually got widespread uh, backlash was from the Salvation Army and they did those like little, you know, like bathroom advertisements um, warning about sex trafficking, but there they were like they were showing images of like women being brutalized and like kicked and punched. Like it it was awful.

[00:26:35]>> They were just posting pictures of that in the in bathrooms.

[00:26:37]>> Yeah, like trauma porn. um in order to raise history about sex trafficking, right? And like that was actually like the public did not like that, right?

[00:26:46]Like they recognized the harm in that, you know, even if not towards how it would impact sex workers like just generally.

[00:26:55]Um and an organization called the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women Canada, um they do more evidence-based um anti-trafficking policy. They did a study on the Vancouver Olympics to explore like if this ever materialized, a spike in trafficking. Um they debunked that argument. No cases reached the level of investigation by the end of that year. And also there was an even an increase in the demand for sexual services which is what we see all over the world. There's been studies in in after the Rio Olympics and other places there's usually not even that increase.

[00:27:32]>> There's no increase in demand. That's also something that I've experienced anecdotally like when I started doing sex work, I was like I consider like oh like maybe going to Montreal for F1 cuz you hear about how like you know there's all these men there'll be increased demand and every single time I've spoken to a sex worker who's been in one of these cities or lives there. They're like no it like it's dead during that event. Like there's there's no increased demand for for the work. It's just not it's not a thing.

[00:27:58]>> Yeah. Um, and despite all of this and all this evidence, and it's not just in Vancouver, um, this myth just like comes up over and over again anytime there's, you know, FIFA Olympics. Um, it's it's expanded to like any big event. So, I I saw um one in San Diego from a a police department there towards ComicCon.

[00:28:24]This is a roller coaster of an interview.

[00:28:27]I just just have to laugh. Yeah. Comic Con, hot bed of sex trafficking. Sorry.

[00:28:33]>> Oh my god.

[00:28:35]>> And what do you know?

[00:28:37]You look at the news release, lots of scary quotes about sex traffickers and the charges are for obtaining purchasing, right?

[00:28:46]>> Yeah. Just just for seeking out the services of like an adult consenting sex worker.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah. Um so again this is coming up um as well as so like sort of the hysteria around sex trafficking around the FIFA games as well too. Um and there's public messaging and campaign that had already existed but a couple that we should probably talk about to highlight of like what's happening now. Yeah.

[00:29:14]>> The one that I saw um from your Instagram was the um how servers have been like restaurant workers, service workers have been instructed to call the police if they see certain things. Can we read out that list?

[00:29:27]>> Yes. Um okay.

[00:29:28]>> So ridiculous.

[00:29:29]>> So unlike it, so it's the restaurant um BC restaurant and food services association.

[00:29:39]Um, and so they want restaurants and staff to do this training, right? Um, cuz I'm going to give it to like the staff. Like I don't think they want to do this and I think they're smarter than this, >> but I think there will be some crazy staff who will take it upon themselves.

[00:29:53]>> Yes, they might. Okay, so this again, this is not based on evidence, but this is a sign of trafficking that you should look for in restaurants. Um, and call the police. um what appears to be a short first date.

[00:30:10]>> Did Did they offer any like any more details than that or just a short first date?

[00:30:14]>> Like what appears to be a short first date and like maybe they should just have like one drink and leave?

[00:30:20]>> By the way, I had a short first date.

[00:30:22]Not sorry, not a first date. I had a short date this weekend.

[00:30:25]>> Yeah.

[00:30:26]>> And you were like, "Is someone going to call the cops?"

[00:30:31]>> Um thankfully they didn't. I was with my partner and we were trying to get into the seafood restaurant on Commercial Drive >> and so we got on the wait list because it was busy because it's a great restaurant. So we went to the bar next door and we went to the bartender and we ordered a drink and he passes us a menu like are you going to eat today? I'm like no we're just waiting. He's like oh you're waiting to get into that restaurant. It's really popular. My last table was just waiting. Because that's a normal thing to do and a normal assumption for the staff of normal response, right?

[00:31:07]>> I'm here for a drink before I move on.

[00:31:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. A normal thing to do. And now like servers are being told to call the police. Yes. If someone does that.

[00:31:16]>> Um regular takeout orders that are like large takeout orders and often paid in cash, especially around hotels and Airbnbs.

[00:31:26]>> So everywhere.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah. What? But like I I don't know how much cooking you do when you're in a hotel room.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> But I imagine you know a lot of people eat a lot and you know there's just more common normal explanations for all these things not to call the police.

[00:31:43]>> Sits alone for a long time. Um often on their phone and they can be visited by a man or a woman briefly call the police.

[00:31:55]Um, and then a person who interacts with like multiple staff, sometimes presenting themselves as wealthy and offering jobs like modeling.

[00:32:08]Call the police.

[00:32:11]Could you imagine that phone call?

[00:32:13]>> I'm just I'm just speechless. Like I so like say I I I hope that you know a lot of restaurants and like staff like don't take this training but say if they were like during FIFA like the police would be so busy responding to restaurants because of the multiple takeout orders or the appearance of first dates that they would not be able to do anything else. And um I mean I think you know generally police kind of like these sort of anti-trafficking public messaging campaigns because it makes them feel like you know they're they're on it and they're ready to respond.

[00:32:51]>> They're busy.

[00:32:52]>> Yeah. And if they get if they get a number of police reported calls about trafficking, they could enter that into the Stats Canada database and say these are police reported calls about trafficking. whether they actually led to an investigation or not or if they actually fit the legal threat threshold of trafficking.

[00:33:11]>> But then they can still say like, "Oh, we bought increased reports of trafficking. We need more funding for our anti-trafficking um committee so that we can pretend to be sex workers and give clients fines."

[00:33:22]>> Exactly.

[00:33:24]You see, >> great work.

[00:33:25]>> The business model is all coming together now.

[00:33:31]>> Yeah.

[00:33:33]Um there's there's also you we talked about the airport as well too.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. Because when I when I came here like in the airport there's like little stickers in the bathroom stalls that said like that says like watch out for trafficking or like if you're being trafficked you can call this number.

[00:33:48]>> There's there's signs like that all over. Like we don't have signs like that in Germany.

[00:33:53]>> So the the airport authority I think it was February they said that 85% of their staff are trained to spot the signs of trafficking. Um and and their trafficking signs are pretty wild, too.

[00:34:07]So, um one of them is um has too much luggage or not enough. What the correct amount of luggage is, I don't know. They never clarified.

[00:34:18]Um uh uh hair, uh gel nails, um clothing that seems expensive, but the person has no known income.

[00:34:31]So basically, if you're just like a single woman with a mysterious source of income who looks nice.

[00:34:36]>> Yes.

[00:34:36]>> You're being trafficked.

[00:34:37]>> Yes.

[00:34:38]>> You know, I have gotten pulled into secondary questioning a few times at airports when I when I travel by myself and I think most of the time it's been because they think I'm being trafficked because I travel by myself. I have money and like also it happened more often when I was working as a model because then they would ask what I do for work and I'd be like, "Oh, I'm a model." And they're like, "She's being trafficked."

[00:34:56]So, >> what happened when I came to Canada um a year and a half ago? Also, I was a Canadian citizen.

[00:35:02]>> What airport did you go through?

[00:35:03]>> I was I flew into um that like [ __ ] ass airport that's like outside of Toronto.

[00:35:09]>> Oh, right. Right.

[00:35:11]>> And this woman was like questioning me.

[00:35:12]She was like, "Why are you coming to Canada? What are you doing here?" And I'm like, "I'm a citizen. Like, why are you grilling me?

[00:35:17]>> I'm visiting my family."

[00:35:18]>> I know. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I think because I was stopped in Toronto and Montreal first and my family was in Vancouver and I think she thought I was being trafficked and it like I was like, "What? Don't you have something to do?"

[00:35:29]>> Ba based on what? Your appearance.

[00:35:31]You're getting profiled. You're getting pretty profiled.

[00:35:35]Um, >> crazy, right? And like they're they're really arbitrary and like some of them are just like so mundane. Like one of the signs in a that you're trafficked in a hotel room is that you have hotel keys.

[00:35:51]>> What?

[00:35:53]>> I wish I was making this up.

[00:36:01]>> Yes.

[00:36:01]>> Is there anything that's not a sign of trafficking?

[00:36:08]>> Um I don't. That's a really good question.

[00:36:17]Like sometimes I swear they they don't really like my style like because it's like eyelashes and gel nails.

[00:36:26]>> Yeah. Like just >> just looking nice.

[00:36:28]>> Or there's a weird thing about like signs for like cases of children and their parents that's led to like a lot of racial profiling. Um, like if you're in a like multi-racial family, like because one of the signs is like a a a child or minor traveling with somebody who says that their parents, but they're not.

[00:36:50]>> Like, how do how do you know?

[00:36:52]>> Yeah. How do you prove that when you're like working at TSA or something? Of course, that leads to racial profiling.

[00:36:57]>> Yeah. I mean, you don't you make assumptions and then stop them for questioning and traumatize the child and their parent, right? So yeah, those I mean like those kind of public messaging and campaigning already exist in Vancouver and they're just kind of >> ramping up in the leadup to FIFA >> and they're not based on any any form of reality.

[00:37:18]>> No. And I I think like you know some evidence-based anti-trafficking groups have said like it you know the industry needs to move away from these like checklists because people are whole people, >> right? and um sort of like a whole person approach would be much better um at identifying people and then also giving them the support that they need.

[00:37:41]Um there's also like this idea that there should be this whole of society approach to anti-trafficking.

[00:37:48]So again, your restaurant ser server, your Uber driver, uh your Airbnb host >> making everyone into police. Yes. Like to police each other and like um surveillance. Exactly.

[00:38:01]>> Right. And it doesn't it doesn't actually help anybody. Yeah. Right. Like none of these people are equipped to do anti-trafficking work.

[00:38:08]>> Yeah.

[00:38:09]>> Um like people don't >> believe us all the time, but like Swan does anti-trafficking work and a lot of sex work organizations do because we are um we've built trust with the community and we actually respond to what they need, which is sometimes just safer sex applies. that if there's a case that exploitation occurs at work, then they can call us. And we have um been able to support people and that's more of what it looks like. It's not my god, this person has too many takeout orders.

[00:38:43]>> They're carrying too much luggage or not enough.

[00:38:46]>> Yeah. I mean, trafficking is so I think people people really want to believe that trafficking is like this simple thing that's easy to spot and there's like bad people who are trafficking victims and that it's very black and white and it can be stopped that way, but it's a lot more complex than that.

[00:39:03]>> Yeah, definitely. And like there's always sort of yeah this this uh point that it's like it's the bad guys, right?

[00:39:10]And there is often not a focus or discussion on like the systemic issues that lead to exploitation. Um like if we were to compare it to like the migrant rights movement in Canada, um there's the temporary foreign worker program and closed work permits. So you're tied to one employer, >> which gives them all the power um and and the worker like not a lot of options to leave the situation if they're being exploited.

[00:39:40]in uh the migrant sex workers that we support. If you get rid of that immigration ban, then they would have the ability um to call the police if they are being exploited. People who have been have experienced exploitation at work, they have been threatened by like an employer that they'll call the CBSA on them, right? So like the actual immigration ban that's supposedly for safety of of the workers is actually a tool that's being used to exploit them further.

[00:40:14]>> Yeah.

[00:40:15]>> So circling back to FIFA. So during FIFA there is going to be like increased police presence in the city.

[00:40:23]>> Yeah, of course.

[00:40:24]>> Yeah. So we just heard from the head of security of FIFA a week or so ago. He was talking to local media saying it's the largest deployment of police and police resources in Vancouver's history.

[00:40:37]So, >> wow. So, even bigger than the Olympics.

[00:40:40]>> Bigger than the Olympics. This is from like match days. So, any any given day on the Vancouver Olympics, but then even more so than like recent events like the Taylor Swift concert. Um, there's police forces coming from all across the prairies.

[00:40:56]And for the women that we support, that just means they're not going to be visiting Swan's office, right? A lot of people have no choice because like like we're downtown. We're like one kilometer away from the stadium. Um our office, you saw it, it's where we um wrap our safer sex supplies. um we run outreach operations out of that but we also have like inoff services that um could become urgent needs for the women. So we do STBBI mobile testing but sometimes people just want to like need to just drop in to do that testing and make sure their results are sent to the lab or the samples are sent to the lab right away too. So we talked to women like earlier this year and they just said like well I'm not going to go downtown. Why would I go downtown? I can't even hit certain sky train stations into downtown because they don't want to interact with police or transit police even too. So again, there's that disconnect from the services. We will be increasing our outreach um in the leadup to FIFA and then also during FIFA we kind of have to really reorganize it so that it's uh doesn't happen on game days.

[00:42:13]>> Your outreach.

[00:42:14]>> Yes.

[00:42:15]>> Okay. And then we're also sort of still looking for a temporary space outside of downtown because we have, you know, like social activities and learning activities like our English class that like a lot of the women like it's really important for them to like not take a break during the summer and not have months without practicing English before our our fall semester starts too. Um, so those are really important days for them to go. We have mobile uh STVI dropins as well too where we'll just have like a full day of testing. So yeah, we'll be our operations will be like greatly impacted because there's just you know there's just this large portion of the city which like Swan calls calls home that is no longer going to be friendly or safe for the majority of people that we support.

[00:43:04]>> Yeah.

[00:43:05]>> Yeah. Um so we haven't touched on yet exactly like what you offer with outreach and also what um women can come to you for like what exactly Swan offers.

[00:43:17]>> Yeah. So we actually operate in about 13 municipalities across the lower mainland of BC. Um, and so we do outreach in person to indoor sex work venues like massage parlors, but also um sort of independent spaces like apartments and condominiums.

[00:43:36]Um, generally it's just dropping off safer sex supplies. So, our condoms and lube and then our resource information with um all of our staff phone numbers and all of the languages that you can um um reach staff in. And usually at that time, that's when we'll get like those extra questions about, oh, I have an issue with immigration or there was maybe a police check at this place and I'm not sure yet or I had a bad date.

[00:44:05]Can I report it for your abuser alert system? So those operations will continue, but they're really ramping up ahead of FIFA just so we can do those extra checks on people and just to make sure they have the supplies they need to work throughout the summer um in case like there's a disruption during FIFA.

[00:44:23]Um and then we also have our like in-house operations. So, it could be, you know, we could do this over the phone, but some people prefer to do like inerson one-on-one supports if they're really diving into like some of the immigration, family law issues. We do STBI testing, both outreach, but then also in in um in our office, and that's a really important one, too, because a lot of people even may not want to go to in person to a clinic, right? because they're frequenting a clinic to do STBI tests and that >> and because someone at the clinic will flag that and call the police.

[00:44:59]>> It it could happen, right? Um like >> or there could be like intrusive questions and stuff too. So like the ability for like us to to facilitate the blood spot tests and like collect urine samples is really important because we could take those samples. They just provide like an anonymous name, a random birth date and then we take them to the clinic. So there's no interaction there.

[00:45:23]And then we've partnered with a trusted clinic so that if there is a need for a followup for treatment or medication um then we all do the appointment together.

[00:45:33]>> Yeah. So these are all like kind of essential services.

[00:45:37]>> Yeah.

[00:45:37]>> Yeah.

[00:45:37]>> Yeah. Very like basic things that all workers should have access to.

[00:45:41]>> Yeah. I mean, it's occupational health and safety and it's like, you know, general um public health, too. Like, these people are contributing to the overall public health of of the region by getting regular tests.

[00:45:54]>> Yeah.

[00:45:54]>> Yeah.

[00:45:55]>> Yeah. And now during FIFA, they're going to be scared to >> Yeah.

[00:45:59]>> to go to go anywhere.

[00:46:02]>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's if you can control a situation for for some of the people that we support, it's just like avoiding the place or location altogether, right?

[00:46:14]>> Um they just don't want to take the risk because, >> you know, they could even get um an immigration check on transit by transit police. And we just saw an article come out today that >> I think Vancouver police and transit police had like a 80% increase in the number of immigration checks in the last couple of years. Wow.

[00:46:38]>> Um this is through um freedom of information documents and it's Vancouver specifically that had the most notable increase. Um, so the reporters also looked at like Berby, Langley, some of the surrounding communities and it's just Vancouver that had these extra um increasing calls for uh to the CBSA.

[00:47:02]>> So like the transit police are just like asking people for their immigration details on the train.

[00:47:07]>> Yeah. um you know um I don't think we we haven't had a case lately that I can remember um but we're also part of the migrant rights network and there was um some cases last year where they were asking students by the UBC they were doing immigration checks on transit like asking >> I don't know I don't know I don't know Lucy I don't know anymore Has anyone read World War II history book? Like >> yeah, but I mean it's too bad there's just coffee in this.

[00:47:47]>> I know. Yeah, I need a drink. Um but it just is kind of indicative of like the climate in Canada in the last year and what's happened with immigration enforcement, the increase in the number of CBSA officers. Um, >> what is CBSA for people who >> Oh, I'm sorry. It's a Canada Border Services Agency. So, our Border Law Enforcement, Immigration Enforcement.

[00:48:16]>> Okay.

[00:48:17]>> Um, yeah, that's another thing I wanted to get into is like the im the intersection of all of this with immigration because you guys mainly or primarily work with um immigrant migrant sex workers. Um, and yeah, we me we already mentioned that a bit how there is that intersection of um being an immigrant automat automatically makes you a great greater risk as a sex worker because you cannot call the police because you're not allowed to do um sex work.

[00:48:43]>> Yeah, I I think so. The Aisha project that I mentioned earlier um they had a study a couple years ago asking, you know, hundreds of sex workers like how often they call police if they do experience violence. um immigrant migrant sex workers in particular were the ones who called uh the police the the the least amount. I think they said it was about 12% only 12% call when they experienced violence. We would say that was from a couple years ago. It's so rare now. I even lower now.

[00:49:17]>> I I would think it's even lower than that. Um because it just it's just not an option. It's it's not something >> that the women want to take a risk on or want to explore. Like we >> Swan Vancouver, we we tell women like, you know, what their options are and we let them decide what what they think is best for them. And so we lay out like what they can do if they want to do a police report, but what are the risks involved and how do this how could this impact you if you are a migrant? And it's just not a risk that we're seeing that they're taking a lot.

[00:49:53]It's understandable. Yeah.

[00:49:55]>> What are the like main kind of day-to-day issues that immigrant migrant women come to you with?

[00:50:03]>> I think um it c it can run the gamut. Um I think you know Swan becomes sort of like the de facto social services agency because uh the people we support just generally don't feel safe accessing um maybe an antiviolence agency, a housing institution, even you know certain lawyers um without contacting Swan first and getting a safe referral. Um so it can run the gamut. It could be like accessing health care. Um actually that last year I know from our numbers um calls for service to Swan about 70% of them were accessing healthcare. So that was before we launched our mobile STBI program. But it's also generally like um general practitioner care um pap tests and screenings um health care for them and their families and their young children as well too. We also have cases of like family violence as well. So they might access swan services and maybe an antiviolence organization. Um but also maybe ask us a lot of questions first about like well what about if my job comes up? Will will my ex use this as a threat? Um what should I say? What should I not like report? Like what are the risks there too? So it's just accessing like these basic services like across the gamut.

[00:51:38]>> Yeah. services that should be accessible to everybody, but because of their migrant status or because of just doing sex work, it becomes so fraught and so >> dangerous and of course they're unsure about just reaching out to a government organization.

[00:51:53]>> Yeah. They're always thinking about the con consequences of their work when accessing like basic social services.

[00:51:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because there are so many consequences even under the Nordic model which like you know supposedly sex workers have immunity. It's not true.

[00:52:06]>> Yes. Yes. Yeah, >> one last thing I want to touch on. First of all, anyone who's listening, you should donate to Swan. Um or if you're in Vancouver, you can also help out and um volunteer to pack supplies at Swan.

[00:52:19]Um I did it last week. It was great.

[00:52:21]>> Yeah. You stayed for like usually our condom packing parties are two hours. I think you stayed for like four >> at three. Yeah.

[00:52:27]>> Yeah. You had your own party.

[00:52:29]>> Having a good time. Um yeah, donate to Swan. I also want to talk about um if people uh who are listening who aren't living in Vancouver, they maybe want to find a more local charity to help or donate to like things to look out for of like finding a good charity that helps sex workers in the way that you guys do and is not like some front for a religious organization that's trying to quoteunquote save sex workers.

[00:52:56]>> Well, we have a lot of community partners. Um so Swan Vancouver, there's Wish Dropin Center society that works with a lot of um downtown east side streetbased sex workers, Pace Society, and then as well um living in community and those are our very close community partners. We all have um different populations that we may support, but we're all um looking towards like the same goal like better access for services for sex workers and increasing uh safety and advocacy so that we don't actually have to do all these like band-aid frontline services.

[00:53:31]>> Yeah.

[00:53:31]>> Yeah. You could kind of spread spread it out a little bit.

[00:53:33]>> Exactly.

[00:53:35]Um Yeah. Yeah. And if people are in different cities, like I don't know, my recommendation for looking for charities is always try and find a charity or like non uh profit organization that advocates for decriminalization of sex work. I think that's the most important thing. And that they don't have any um religious affiliations and they don't have any language around saving or like rescuing women. That it should be focused on like rights and outreach and like what women in the industry actually need.

[00:54:03]>> Yeah. Like we always say at Swan Vancouver that like unlike um many anti-trafficking organizations, we don't push women to exit the industry, right?

[00:54:14]We understand that people um might need our support even in if it's the case of exploitation, but you know, they might want to like leave an exploitative situation and then just continue sex work elsewhere. Just like, you know, if a migrant temporary foreign worker who's a farm worker or a caregiver has an exploitative employer, they want to continue in their chosen field without >> without without that exploitative employer.

[00:54:40]>> Yeah. And then we always say too that we respond to people's self-identified needs. So we don't make assumptions about what they want or we don't say like, well, if you just left the industry, you wouldn't have this problem, right? Like if people say like this is my issue, this is the the solution I want to work towards um then we work on that, right? It's based on like what kind of support they're looking for.

[00:55:08]>> That's amazing. You guys, you guys do great work.

[00:55:12]>> Thank you.

[00:55:14]Okay, I think we're going to wrap up with that. I'm going to leave the links for Swan and to donate and everything in the show notes so that you can go click that button and send them money.

[00:55:25]Um, is there anything else you want to share before we wrap up?

[00:55:28]>> No, I think thank you so much for for talking to us and for like really contributing to our operations with you and your family coming to like um pack supplies for us in like just a really critical time. Um, I think it's just like so important um that you know you have these conversations and we've been following you on Instagram for a while too. like it's just a way to like have these casual conversations to like welcome people in and explore the issues in a way that they understand before they, you know, want to do a deep dive and and learn more. So, thank you so much for taking an interest in Swan and we really appreciate it. And we have had a number of international donors as well too since you've been highlighting us.

[00:56:13]So, I'm really appreciative like that your audience sees the importance of our work, too.

[00:56:18]>> Great. I'm happy about that. All right.

[00:56:20]Thank you so much. Um, I'm Lucy Huxley.

[00:56:23]I'm a [ __ ]