Narcissism is a personality condition characterized by excessive self-focus, grandiosity, entitlement, and a deep need for admiration, which exists on a spectrum from healthy self-regard to pathological narcissistic personality disorder; it develops from childhood experiences like conditional love, emotional neglect, and excessive praise, and manifests through behaviors such as lack of empathy, manipulation, inability to accept criticism, and exploitation of others, ultimately damaging relationships, families, and workplaces while requiring healing through self-awareness, accountability, empathy building, and professional counseling.
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PCEA EMBAKASI PARISH - Chrsitian Education Committee || Narcissim - When Self Take the Throne追加:
Thank you. Thank you for creating time to just sit at the council of Jesus this evening.
I welcome all of you.
Family Embakasi parish and even our visitors, friends from other churches.
Karibuni sana to this wonderful topic and uh I request that we fasten our our seatbelt so that we can take off.
A few housekeeping things, please keep your mic muted.
Also keep our cameras muted so that we don't uh distract the the conversation.
Listen in keenly. It's just 1 hour. We can give it our our best.
There will be a question and answer session. We just allow the our speaker to carry on without interruption because we just have uh I think 50 minutes so that we can can we can be able to empty it all from her. So, my request is please mute your mic, mute your camera.
Write down the questions then uh when we get to the question and answer, we will be able to ask. I'll be moderating tonight's uh engagement. My name is Doreen.
I am the Christian education chairlady for the parish and I'm going to welcome our patron Elder Faith to open for us with a word of prayer and also welcome our speaker for the evening. Karibu sana Elder Faith.
>> Thank you, Doreen. Uh Uh and welcome team. Let us pray.
Uh Father Lord, we come before thee. We give you praise and we give you honor for such a wonderful this, Jehovah. That we are going to learn and learn and relearn, oh dear king of glory, about narcissism. If uh Lord teach us if you are one, if we are uh if we are one, if we are experiencing Jehovah king of glory. Uh help us, Jehovah king of glory, heal in the mighty name of Jesus. I commit everyone, Lord, into uh who is here, Lord, into your hands that Lord we may be able to learn. And we commit also our facilitator into your hands and we speak blessings upon her in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit we do pray.
>> Amen.
>> Uh thank you and thank you, team. We are 48 of us as uh we will continue [clears throat] as others join us.
They're now 39.
Without wasting time, I will introduce my Professor Katherine Gashoda.
Uh she is a renowned uh counseling psychologist and a respected uh thought leader in counseling space. She's the author of a widely recognized book on parenting in the 21st century. Her work addresses modern parenting challenges shaped by technology, changing family structure, and social pressure pressures. Professor Gashoda brings rich academic academic insight blended with practical real-life parenting guidance.
She's highly regarded for shaping conversations on healthy families and effective parenting today.
So, the topic today is narcissism where self takes the throne. Welcome, Prof. >> Thank you so much, Faith, uh for the invite.
and, uh, PCA Embakasi Parish, uh, congregants and the leadership.
We from Kenya Institute of Business and Counseling Studies, we are very delighted that we have an opportunity to walk a journey [clears throat] with you, equipping people and, um, ensuring the awareness of the congregants even as we think about Embakasi and Utawala and Syokimau.
I am very excited because I have seen, uh, some of the trainers from Kepco and even the head of training, Emmanuel Owuma, you're welcome.
Silvana Mutunga, long time since we met and talked.
>> [snorts] >> And, um, I have seen Ferister Nyikuri, Millicent Rokudo together with others.
You're most welcome.
If I ask you a question, you will, please, respond so that all of us can learn from each other.
And so, the topic of this evening, and it's not just a topic, it is the experience that we go through, experiences we go through in our families and even within our marriages and, even within our parenting, and, uh, even in our workplaces. And, I want to imagine because I didn't ask Faith what informed you on wanting to look at this personality, this personality that we are calling narcissistic.
And, uh, when we think about narcissism and when the self is taking the throne, we actually need to understand what indeed is narcissism.
And we also know that in the world of psychology that you need to be assessed or you need to be screened so that eventually we can say you are narcissistic or this person is narcissistic. But we are in the Kenyan environment where we go diagnosing people and putting labels on people. We can only say this person behaves as if they are narcissistic. But we cannot say they are narcissistic because we have not tested them for us to certainly and with evidence say that this person indeed is narcissistic.
We also need to think and appreciate what is the impact of narcissism on relationships. And I think that's what uh is making us to have this conversation.
That we need to see how does a narcissistic personality or character affect relationships, affect family, affect workplace, affect society.
That is [snorts] important.
And even when we are talking about narcissism, it is a behavior. What is that behavior that we are referring to?
It is a condition that one is having a condition.
We may have a condition of eating too much.
And we are saying this person also has a condition. That may be my brother or my sister or my mom or my teacher. It can be anyone close.
And even at one time or another, we also swing through this particular spectrum.
And we are going to be seeing that it is not just them who are narcissistic, but it is all of us at one time or another.
But if that is going to become your custom, then that is going to put you in a very difficult situation and you're going to put other people in very difficult situations.
Sometimes we say it is a sickness.
Other times we say it is a character.
At other times we say it is a personality.
And therefore, all these terms will describe will describe that child of yours or that sister of yours. And therefore, it is important to appreciate where has that come from and what is the manifestation and what is the impact and possibly can we heal out of narcissism?
So, the definition of narcissism is important.
And also appreciating how it develops.
Maybe we have really contributed to our children who are narcissistic, our brothers and sisters who have turned out to be narcissistic, maybe we contributed.
Again, we need to identify what are those symptoms?
And are these symptoms that are mild or they are average or are they extreme or advanced?
Do they require this person to be seen by a clinician who needs to help them to be able to do a re-correction of themselves?
And again, just like we have said there before, what is the impact?
And can you stay there and you allow the toxicity that is created by a narcissist to continually impact on you negatively?
Or can you do something different? Is there anything that you can do?
And then we, that is where we are going to be looking into what are the practical coping and healing strategies that we can employ so that we can help ourselves, the ones that are staying with people who are narcissistic or probably the persons that are narcissistic. Because we said all of us are narcissistic within a spectrum, we need to know are we mildly narcissistic?
Are we moderately narcissistic? Are we adversely narcissistic?
And so to cap it, narcissism refers to the excessive self-focus.
You know, having a sense of self-importance.
That you believe it is you who changes the life of other people.
And without you, they cannot survive.
And narcissism and those who are narcissistic, they have a deep need for admiration.
Is that a teacher?
He or she can even shout at you because you didn't tell them how well they present.
These people we say they have empathy disorder because they hardly listen.
And even when they listen, they do not listen to understand.
They listen to justify.
They listen to rationalize, but they do not listen so that they can offer a reciprocal kind of an answer.
And so the key feature And Daniel is going to mute.
So, [snorts] the key features, number one is grandiosity.
When we are grandiose or when we are having grandiosity, and we are talking about very technical terms here, but I'm going to try and break them down so that it can be easy for us to be able to understand.
When we are having grand grandiose, then we believe that we are very important.
We believe we are important.
We have exaggerated sense of importance. We feel we are superior. We are very entitled. We have a very inflated ego.
And very unrealistic beliefs regarding ourselves.
I have talked about entitlement.
That you feel you are entitled to be loved and to be served and to be talked to nicely.
But you do not feel or I do not feel that other people also deserve the same from me.
That they need to be talked to in a gentle way. They need to be talked to with respect. But I want it from them. And that is why we are saying that they have empathy disorder.
They have need for validation.
But they can also be very manipulative.
And they are very sensitive to being criticized.
They become sensitive to being criticized but they can be very crude when they are criticizing other people. And I want to stop there a little bit so that you can tell me what else have you witnessed from people who have this very elevated or inflated ego.
What else have you observed?
You can unmute and share.
>> We are describing a particular personality.
What else? What other traits have you observed?
Yeah, Nancy, you can tell us Kirago.
>> Okay, sometimes in a in the in a working place they only think that they are only people that they deserve special treatment.
Yeah, they are there to be recognized at all times.
>> Yeah, they are the ones who deserve to be promoted. They are the ones who deserve to be regarded. They are the ones who deserve to have tea as the first people to be served. Yes, mhm.
>> Everywhere they go, they just want to steal the show.
If they are presenting, they want to look like they are the very best. Yet, they have no uh regard for others. It's like it is them who think it is them who have everything. Other people are supposed to be second class. They always put themselves like first class thinkers.
Nothing is wrong with that, according to them.
>> Yeah, nothing is wrong with that, even at home. When a wife has this self-importance, >> [snorts] >> the husband is always wrong, and vice versa.
And you cannot get yourself out of that because they are the angels, and you are the devils. Yes, um it's purpose over preference.
>> Yeah, I think I think it is it can also be very covert Uh in terms of one being a victim.
So that they're they're the only ones who something bad happens to. Like they never have anything positive to say.
It's like always wishing me wishing me this.
And it's always the they're not able to take responsibility.
Um, for their part in in in their own suffering.
So it's only somebody else's fault.
>> Mhm. They're the victims.
And they do not want to take responsibility, but they want other people to take responsibility.
One more.
>> Right.
>> Thank you so much.
Mhm. One more.
Yeah, they envy others or believe others envy them.
Envy they envy others or they believe others envy them.
Yeah.
They believe that they are the center of attention.
Everyone is there to clap for them. And everyone is there to celebrate them.
They are the kings. They are the queens.
Oh, yes. And remember what we are saying that they are seated at the throne and only kings and queens and the queens will sit at the throne. Even the gods will sit at the throne. And so they behave like that and they want all other people to give them reverence. Jen is saying they know their rights but not their responsibilities.
Jen, you put it so well.
They know their rights but they do not their responsibilities.
That can be your child who know their rights.
But what about their responsibilities?
That means as a parent you have to take them through a process of knowing their responsibility.
Even as they are fighting for their rights. And Caroline is saying, they know their place but not the place of other people. Can you imagine that kind of a person who know their place but not the place of that wife of yours? Not the place of that husband of yours. You don't think that they require consideration, but you yourself, you require that consideration.
That is what you are saying. They exclude They exude some charisma.
I wanted to see that. They exude Mhm.
They exude some charisma when in public.
Wow. Let me tell you, you have gotten it.
And then CK is saying they put boundaries but never respect other people's boundaries.
They would want to be the ones that are said setting boundaries.
But they are not respecting other people's boundaries.
So, how do they think other people are supposed to be taking that? Yes, Amos Galogo.
>> They They They also don't like to be corrected and yet they keep correcting others as well.
>> Yeah.
Very true, Amos. They don't want to be corrected, but they're going to correct you from morning to evening.
The Bible says pride will bridle us to our own destruction.
And that is what happens to people who have narcissistic tendencies.
And again, we say pride goes before destruction.
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
But do they reflect on that? Because again, they're not reflectors.
They're activists on the stage.
Not reflecting on how their behavior and their tendencies is causing other people a lot of negative impact.
And so, they need to sit back and think.
How do other people get affected by my own behavior?
Again, in the book of Philippians 2 and verse 3, the Bible says that humility is the antidote, meaning that it counters narcissism.
When we have humility, when we agree that other people require honor, just like we require honor, that humility becomes the medicine of the narcissism.
So, Philippians says that is that chapter 2 and verse 3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
Rather, in humility, value other people above yourselves.
That does not mean that you don't regard yourself.
You actually need to regard yourself.
But just the same way because the Bible says love other people as you love yourself.
So, in the same way it needs to be very reciprocal. We are human beings with flesh and blood.
And therefore we need to see our limitations.
We cannot have bloated selves because that is going to become our destruction.
And medicine Gikuyu is saying they are very opinionated. It is their opinion that goes.
But they don't take or even listen to other people's opinions.
Meaning this is a very complicated personality.
Romans 12:16 says, true greatness is found in serving others.
As we serve other people, we feel privileged to be in that particular space where we can serve other people.
And therefore there is a saying, do not be proud but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
But they hardly hear this.
Until now the consequences start taking shape in their own life.
I said this is in a spectrum.
And it is important to understand the spectrum of narcissism.
There is what we call healthy narcissism.
It is not all narcissism that is negative. There is narcissism that is very positive. People who are exuding confidence.
People who have positive self-worth.
People with healthy ambition because we have seen people who are very ambitious, but their ambition is very healthy.
It is within a region where people are not getting harmed and hurt and damaged by our own ambition. But you also know fathers and husbands and wives and mothers whose ambition can actually be very harmful to everyone around them.
So there is the healthy narcissism, but there is also the unhealthy narcissism.
That is when we are self-centered.
That's when we are emotionally exploiting other people.
You want to be served, but you don't want to serve.
You want to use your wife's money, but you don't want your money to be used at home.
Or a wife would want to use the husband the husband's money >> [snorts] >> or even assets or a vehicle, but you don't want to clean it.
You bring it back when it is untidy and dirty and having a lot of rubbish inside.
And you just keep it there.
And he is not supposed to get angry because he is a husband or she is a wife.
That is taking other people for granted.
These people who have unhealthy narcissism, they have a superiority complex that damages relationships wherever they go.
But then now we have the extreme extreme, the more advanced, the narcissistic personality disorder. And I said, you need to go through assessment.
You actually need to go through a screening for this to be determined that you have a narcissistic personality disorder. But I said, many people will have narcissistic tendencies, but they have never been uh taken through an administration of a test so that we can determine that they have the condition.
So this is a clinical mental health condition that is characterized by pervasive grandiosity.
You know that bloated self, that self uh where one feels they're very important.
And whether they're very important spiritually, they're the ones that pray and the prayers are answered, or they're the ones that say and no one else can say, you know, they're the ones that need to be recognized because of how important they are. So they have severely impaired relationships.
Because who wants to be close to them?
Because if you try to be close to them, you're going to be endangered.
And sometimes people will even um separate if they are married or even divorce eventually because you can't take it. It is too much. But you also need to think, are you the one who is exaggerating it or is it really true that this individual has an narcissistic personality condition? So, narcissism exists on a continuum from the healthy self-regard.
And therefore, don't be defensive when someone says, "You have tendencies of narcissism." You can ask which ones, and are they healthy or unhealthy so that you can know.
So, understanding where behavior falls or where our behavior falls in this spectrum is key to identifying the impact because if it is mild, it might not have a lot of impact. But if it is very advanced where we indeed have the disorder, then that will have a lot of impact. And the impact can be very severe.
So, let's ask ourselves, how does it develop?
And like I said uh when we were starting, that maybe we have contributed to it to some of the narcissistic personalities that walk around and they annoy us to the extreme.
And so, one of the contributions is the childhood experiences.
Do we have excessive praise to our children?
Or even emotional neglect.
Or even when people are criticized all the time.
Or even given the conditional love so that they desire and they crave for love so that all the time they are looking for that love and attention because they didn't get it.
So, that conditional love that you can only earn love because you're hard working. You can only earn love because you are intelligent or because you are beautiful or because you are dressed well. They are conditions that are put for you so that you can earn love. If there is conditional love, then someone has a crave to be loved, to be attended to, to be acknowledged and it is coming from a place of luck.
And that is why we need to really balance.
We balance care, we balance love so that we don't give a lot of it.
In the book of written on effective parenting, parenting in the 21st century and Faith was referring to it. I am asking, do we have a curriculum on how to parent children?
And I give an example of a seedling that when you put a seed on the ground, then you need to be very certain there is going to be rain.
There is going to be the soil is going to be uh having nutrients that can make this particular crop to grow. There is going to be sunlight, but then the sunlight and even the rain and even the nutrients need to be in the right and correct measures. Sometimes we ask ourselves, and how do I know that I'm not giving a lot of love? I'm not giving a lot of support until I suffocate those that I'm supposed to be challenging so that they can also become There are also social influences that make people to gravitate in that direction. Like the social media culture, the celebrity worship, the way we worship celebrities, the way we worship our leaders in Kenya. It gets to a level where that kind of recognition of our leaders turns out to be very unhealthy.
And that is what we do even in our own homes. When we are telling our children how clever they are, we do it to a level where we destroy them rather than building them and grounding them to become We may also be coming from a very competitive environment that reinforces the narcissistic tendencies.
Maybe it is education that is getting promoted.
So [snorts] other children and other individuals within that environment who who are not as gifted academically, they do not know what to do. But, they can crave to be seen in other ways. So, they can become rebellious.
So, our parenting styles can be very overindulgent, overprotecting.
There can be emotional inconsistency that creates the fertile ground for the narcissistic tendencies and traits to grow.
But, also that trauma and insecurity can be the breeding ground of the narcissism.
Because narcissism often masks very deep emotional wounds.
And therefore, it becomes a defense mechanism against shame [snorts] and vulnerability.
Do I feel like I came from a poverty-stricken situation and it gives me shame and I don't know how to deal with that shame.
But, I keep on commanding other people because I would want to order them and control them because I didn't feel as privileged.
So, [clears throat] when we are looking into as parents and even leaders and even um when we are the employers or whoever we are and you would want some Some tendencies to be dealt with. You have to ask the question, where did all this come from?
And maybe I can say I kept on craving my father's love and I couldn't get it.
And therefore, I keep on getting other people to love me and to care for me and to acknowledge me the way I would have wanted dad to do it to me.
And so, it's important to understand the manifestations and the types of narcissism.
And one of it is the behavioral and the emotional signs that you see.
The constant need for admiration is more behavioral, is more emotional.
The dominating of conversations that you can talk for 2 hours nonstop.
And you're not giving other people an opportunity say to speak. I do not know. It's my It's not good for You can check your mics.
So that people can hear. Thank you so much for that.
>> [clears throat and snorts] >> Also, exploiting other people and lacking accountability.
That even when you are told to be accountable or even to explain or even to make amends, you can't.
You are too bloated. I'm too bloated. I can't. I can't say sorry.
I can't say forgive me.
I can't put myself in that situation.
Thank you so much, Doreen.
Or maybe I have envy, competitiveness, and emotional manipulation.
Or even anger when criticized and emotional coldness.
You know, people who fight the cold wars. They wouldn't take it when the same cold war is turned on them. But when they are turning it on other people, they do it as if we are supposed to be enjoying their cold war.
But wait, turn it to them.
And they are not going to take it completely.
The others are the psychological roots, the the fragile self-esteem hidden beneath the confidence.
That they are looking very confident, confident, but within they are very fearful or even fear of rejection or even shame and desire for control.
They have desire for control because in the inside, they feel out of control.
Or having defense mechanisms like denial or even projection or even what we call the gaslighting.
You are seeing the wrong in other people.
But the same wrong or the same things I do, but I can't take it. So, I see it in other people, but I don't see it in myself.
That blame shifting.
And it can hurt. It will blister. It will annoy.
Or even the grandiose, the arrogant.
I would do it even when they don't have money.
Attention-seeking, dominant.
Or even people who are very defensive.
Or they can easily be hurt. Or they're passive-aggressive.
Or even the malignant one.
Where people are cruel, they are aggressive, they can manipulate, and they lack remorse.
Imagine this person who can injure you even with words, hit you be- below the belt. Call you anything.
Compare you with other men, say, "Why are you not as important as so-and-so? Why don't you do things like so-and-so?" And think that that it's okay for them to say that. But turn it to them. Do the same to them, and they cannot take it. They cannot handle it. It is too bitter for them.
So, how does narcissism impact marriage or even parenting?
The partners [clears throat] of narcissists often experience emotional neglect.
They [snorts] experience a lot of power struggle. There is a lot of control because this person who wants to talk and talk and talk, and you cannot talk.
And when you try to talk, you're beaten down. You know, the chronic criticism and betrayal. They frequently feel drained, these partners.
They frequently feel in- validated.
They feel lonely, and they feel confused.
I want to stop again there.
>> Prof, you're muted.
>> So sorry.
Thank you, Faith.
What other effects are there on marriage?
It may not be you experiencing, but you have heard it or you have seen it in other relationships.
Yes, Faith.
>> Uh I'll give an example of where uh the husband is working uh and he has a he has uh so he sends the wife uh to go for uh to the supermarket to buy uh stuff. And it's a lot of money, maybe. So, there's a trolley.
But this woman has no cash.
Mhm. So, she will have to queue until the wife the husband picks up the call to be able to get the figure in order for him to send the money to the till.
So, uh every time she's at the supermarket because she's known, and when people see her, they move on the other side. So, that causes a lot of public embarrassment. And when she goes home, the husband doesn't see anything wrong with it.
Mhm.
What was there to be embarrassed about?
>> [laughter] >> And I'm giving you all the money, and this is the shopping.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It is actually a privilege that I'm sending you money because how many other wives are given that privilege? How many other husbands are given that privilege, but it's pure abuse.
Because you are standing there, you could not be trusted with money. You are a wife, you are a husband to somebody.
And there isn't anything that you have done. It's not like you are given money and you decided to misuse that money.
It's simply because of the character of the other person. Mhm.
Yes, Lucy.
>> Uh, thank you so much.
On this topic about um narcissism, I remember just giving from my uh I mean from the experience uh first hand.
>> [laughter] >> Um and these people, these are really uh okay um uh I'll give a disclosure. My my my ex-husband was uh was a narcissist.
And um I mean I had to go for uh for for counseling on that matter.
Uh away from that, the thing is that uh these people are preachers. Hey, you know my husband was a was a was a preacher. Uh after you go you know the PCMF man. They really do hide themselves. Uh men of the cloth, they really do hide themselves. And um uh the picture that they portray in the society is really um uh very different from what I was I mean from personal what I experienced in the house. So, there's this time that we had the PCMF uh they would come to our place. And um this guy would place the Bible in a way that shows that we were going to read the Bible. The way these people they act they are they have they also do have two types of of voices. I mean the the voice that we would communicate with him was very different from the voice that we communicate with other people.
Normal though. Um >> [laughter] >> it's um It was it was it was like a game. It was like I don't know but it was crazy. You can literally go crazy, you know? And mostly I don't you know I I really express myself well in in in Kikuyu. But I'm telling you these people hey hey the father is a reverend You see them you know me I thought that I was getting I'll give I'm giving this disclosure because I know my my cast lies also here and and thanks for the invite.
You know me I thought I'm getting married to you know those people hey I do get to you know I see a guy you know that hey and I was like wow you know the father is a reverend you know the guy is also a chairman in the church >> [laughter] >> Then when you get inside there you are like shock on you.
Things are really quite a bit different.
These are the experiences you know. I would >> [laughter] >> But it is >> [clears throat] >> it can be as crazy. These things are happening also in the churches. You cannot say that they are not they are just happening at the workplace. These are every it's an every everywhere you know.
Um I I also regard that this that I mean this initiative has been brought by the PCM and also just to say that it is happening also in the churches whereby ones want to be seen as the best preacher, ones want to be seen as the best in the church lady treasurer and you know, these things are happening.
But, it's also very hard to fight also them. I mean I mean not them as personally, but career that individual how little do we know that it is very difficult. I [snorts] mean, the last time actually I went to church was I mean 6 years ago.
You know once we I really do agree that we church is let us not talk to that topic. Let's not let's not divert to that, narcissism is real and it is there and once you experience it first hand and you know it you once you come out you're like God it that was like a it was it's more demonic. You get out and you're like what did I just experience? What How how and then you're like God I'm grateful that you've really saved me and also the resilience that I have acquired through this you know through this and I able to perceive I mean the world in a very different another different perspective rather than what I knew before. It's open up our mind in an in a I mean in a way of like a know-how.
Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you so much Lucy and all of us clap for Lucy.
>> Thank you for allowing us to share and love you in this because it is very important because it helps us to be able to understand.
Thank you so much Lucy for allowing yourself to share in the way you have shared because we grow because we can share and we can share deeply.
And yes, that you can feel you've been in a situation and what was that about?
Neglect and abuse. They experience uh financial because we are looking at the impact in the marriage. Financial neglect and abuse, which has been well explained by Faith and the example she has given. And Alice Washila is saying the spouse of the narcissist may get isolated from their social circle.
Even withdraw themselves due to low self-esteem.
>> [snorts] >> And Jenga Caroline is saying they also make people around you think you are the crazy one. You are the mad one because they are too perfect out there.
And Frida Twitter has said, "Someone errors and then when you ask, they turn it against you. Nikama, you are the guilty one." Yes, Samo.
You can unmute.
Samo, are you in a position to unmute?
Meanwhile, as Samo is unmuting, Dag Grace is saying a spouse of a narcissist feels like he or she is walking on eggshells.
Always and carefree monitoring the moods and the words and the actions so that you don't unsettle situation because you want to avoid the triggers or to trigger a rage episode.
Samo, are you able to?
Right as he's he's trying the effects on the children. The narcissistic parents may control excessively.
They can use the children for validation so that they can feel validated and ignore emotional needs of other people and demand perfection of their children.
And children may develop low self-esteem.
They may have anxiety.
They may become people-pleasing and have difficulty trusting other people.
So, the key thing that we need to remember is that we are the ones that are forming these individuals.
When it comes to family and workplace like the favoritism that happens in families, the golden child, and even the scapegoating of one child so that they are the bad ones.
The emotional tension and manipulation among the relatives. In the long term, what we see is estrangement, the relationships are not there, people are traumatized, and inter- and close-generational dysfunction.
In terms of workplace impact the narcissistic leaders seek constant praise even when they don't deserve it.
They take credit even where they have not contributed to what has happened.
And they bully the subordinates.
The organizational effects include a very toxic culture.
Just like a toxic home environment, there is a toxic culture in the workplace. There is burnout, there is low morale, there is high turnover of the staff.
So, narcissism exists in systems and is given birth by systems, whether they are families or organizations, and creates environments where unhealthy individuals where healthy individuals they struggle to thrive.
Because you do not have an opportunity to be able to thrive.
Because of the toxicity, because of the harm that is there in this particular environment.
I have unshared because I think I have put it off without realizing.
But we were talking about in the family what is happening because we need to understand what is happening.
And so, how does narcissism affect the individual?
So, despite the fact that they look very confident, narcissism takes a very heavy personal toll.
>> [clears throat] >> The restlessness or the relentless that is there in continuing to be the perfect self, it becomes very exhausting and ultimately it cannot be sustained.
And so, what is happening to the individual is they experience emotional emptiness.
They also experience loneliness.
Yes. They experience anxiety and for some of them, they will experience depression. Some of them will get into addiction because they cannot handle.
They need a compensatory behavior.
They will have very unstable relationships.
And there is identity confusion and there is chronic dissatisfaction.
As we come to an end, it's important to ask ourselves, can can these individuals be helped?
Can they really get to a place they can manage what is happening to them?
So, for the narcissist, counseling can help.
Self-awareness is also going to help.
If they become accountable because they can decide, I would now want to be accountable.
I have suffered enough. I want to take responsibility of my own behavior.
Also, emotional regulation that they can regulate their own emotions. Because when they are having the narcissistic tendencies, they are not regulating their own emotions. But when now they start regulating their own emotions, managing their own emotions, if it is anger, they are managing their anger. If it is shame, they are managing their shame. They are trying to understand where it's coming from. They are trying to handle it. That narcissistic tendency will start coming down.
When they also start empathy building because we said in the beginning they have empathy disorder. They don't put themselves in other people's situations and therefore they don't hear and they don't understand and they don't appreciate and they don't make other people feel they are human beings. They dehumanize, they depersonalize, they make you feel like you're not important, like you're not a human being, but when they start cultivating empathy they start making you feel human.
They start making you feel important.
They start making you feel that they can be gracious to you.
For the loved ones, put boundaries.
You need to put boundaries where a person with narcissistic tendencies is.
You cannot be insulting me like that and you can't be talking to me like that. I will not talk to you in the same way, but you're also not going to be speaking to me in that way.
Because I feel like I am a child and I don't want to feel that way.
I don't want to feel diminished or demeaned. I do not want.
Neither do I want to do the same to you.
They can go for counseling also.
They can look for support groups.
You look for a support group where you can listen to other people who are validating your feeling of going crazy so that you can decide what do I need to do. Is this becoming extreme? Do I need to stay and probably we can try to see what can be done about this situation.
You need your own self-care.
And you need trauma recovery.
And therefore, you need tools, whether it is journaling that you'd want to be journaling, that you'd want to be taking periodic treats that are not lobbying time from your family, but they are helping you to be able to be grounded and to be centered.
When self takes the throne, relationships will suffer.
So, [snorts] healthy relationships require humility and empathy and mutual respect or reciprocity.
That you're going to meet me at my point of need, and I'm going to meet you at your point of need.
We were trying to appreciate that sometimes family members or even ourselves, we [snorts] will have tendencies and we'll have personalities and we'll have conduct and we'll have character or even behaviors or traits that can make other people feel "This is getting too far. This is becoming too much.
And I cannot survive in this environment anymore."
And that is the time that we now need to change our tendencies.
Some people will say, "Narcissists never change." But we have seen, we who are counselors and psychologists, we have seen people who are determined to change. They can come and say, "I think I have been stepping on my wife, I've been stepping on my my husband, I have been stepping on my children without an apology.
But I want to go and tell them how sorry I am. And I want to start anew in the way I am going to be relating to them.
So, it is not in all situations where people do not change. There are situations where people can be determined to change because they can see the cost of not changing.
I am bringing this topic to an end.
Um Faith, and therefore you can take it up from there.
>> Thank you. Thank you, Prof. Uh kindly let's give her uh virtual claps.
Uh Thank you so much. Uh and I believe we all have our take-homes.
Uh but before we can maybe I I can see I've If you have any question, kindly uh chat on our inbox or maybe raise your hand.
So, Prof, there's one question here from Joseph Wokabi.
Can a marriage with a narcissistic spouse survive?
>> Yeah, I I can now see Joseph Wokabi.
Can a marriage with a narcissistic spouse survive? Yeah, it can survive [snorts] if this narcissistic spouse is ready to work on themselves. Remember we have said there are certain tools that they need to get or there are certain changes that they need to make. They need to be more accountable. They need to regulate their emotions much more. They need to be reasoning to understand. They also need to be reciprocal in gentleness and care and support of others. They cannot be the receivers all the time. They also need to be givers.
When a person like that one changes, then a marriage can survive. If they are not willing to change because they think it's too much or they are losing a part of themselves if they are going to change, then that marriage is not going to see the light of the day.
>> Maybe I can ask what happens when one stopped stops enabling.
What happens when stops enabling?
>> Faith, you are asking what happens when one stops enabling.
Certainly, there is going to be a lot of anger.
There is going to be a lot of frustration.
On the part of the person who was thriving in this particular environment.
Because you see they were used to receiving, they were used to getting angry, they were used to finger pointing, they were used to gaslighting and to shifting blame and the partner was not saying anything. Now that the partner has stopped enabling this, there can be a lot of frustration.
But again, this can be the start of the healing because now they realize they are not going to be permitted to behave the way they want and they are going to be given a leeway. So, it can be two extremes or even a middle way.
And one extreme is where the frustration will push the marriage or push the the to a breakup, but it can be this is the start of a new change or a new way of handling each other and therefore both of them now, because one has stopped enabling the other person, now we'll have to choose different kind of behaviors.
Um certainly the reason as to why the enabling has stopped, maybe it's because of self-realization.
Maybe because one has gone for counseling and has realized this is what is going to be very helpful. The other partner can also go for counseling.
But yes, when enabling stops then there is a lot of frustration on the part of the narcissist.
And I can see some questions there on the chat now, Faith.
Um yes, is it true that narcissism is genetic? It is more of a socialization.
Remember we talked about where does it come from and we said it can come it can come from trauma. We have said it can come from a place of I missed on this and I crave for it and I must get it in marriage because this is what I was looking for.
So, that's why we said it will be important to look at the source so that healing can now be planned for.
So, can it be passed from one generation to the other? It can only be passed from one generation to the other through socialization, through observation that this is the way we relate, this is how we are, people who would want to step on other people and are very afraid to other people. It is what we see and then we produce it.
Why is narcissism disorder said to be more on men than women? Again, because of the socialization.
Because men are socialized to be kings.
And uh to be served, you know? So, the tendency is going to be on a male child much more than it is on a female child who is taught much more about humility.
Remember we said the antidote of narcissism is actually serving other people and having humility. So, it is not the boy child who has a problem. It is the society that makes him to be that way. But he's going to suffer the consequences of where he is at and how he is behaving.
>> [snorts] >> Lere Diguwa is saying, "What are the obvious things one can see in a person to know that they are narcissistic during dating?" Just just those things that we were talking about and you can have a checklist and even during dating and courtship uh we make sure that when we are taking premarital couples through premarital counseling that they go through personality testing so that they can credibly be able to tell that there is danger here. So, what do you see? You see the same things. The grandiosity, you're going to see self-importance, you're going to see exaggerated sense of self-importance, you're going to see entitlement, all those things, unrealistic beliefs, you're going to see a person who is arrogant and conceited.
All those things are red flags. You need to ask yourself, do I want to continue or do we need to enter therapy?
And Loice Kibaruwa is saying, "How do you protect or shield children from a narcissistic spouse?"
That becomes a very dicey situation because this person is dad and this person is mom.
And even as you're putting the boundaries and the limits, the other person can say, "I do not want you to be telling me what to do with my children."
But again, you cannot leave children without protection, so you need to keep on saying and you need to get your partner that you can consider the children so that the children are not taken through um an experience that is going to destroy them, that is going to make them have very so low self-esteem or even become or have tendencies of narcissism themselves.
What should the spouse of a narcissist do to survive in a marriage? I think we have said that you need to stop enabling. At the same time, you need to mark the boundaries that you cannot be insulted like that. You can You cannot be sent as if you are small child, you know, without any um you know, without any light to say no.
You cannot You cannot be treated as a child. Just putting the limits and the boundaries so that you can also be treated with respect.
You also need to communicate you want to be heard and you're also willing to hear them. So, communication also helps to communicate to the other person. Yes, for some of them they can be very elusive. Just like what Lucy Jerry told us. They can be very elusive.
But there are some who are ready to change, especially if they are in the mild and the moderate.
And I think this is the last one. Can a narcissist genuinely love someone?
Or is the relationship mainly about meeting their own needs?
As long as we are calling them narcissists or narcissists having a narcissistic personality disorder, we are saying they are sick people.
And they have a neediness where they are looking for people who can meet their own needs.
And therefore, when you are asking, can they genuinely love someone? They don't have the capacity to love you.
They don't have the capacity to care for you.
They don't have the capacity to nurture you. Because of the very things that we said. Maybe they are coming from a place of trauma, of lack.
And therefore, they are coming here in this particular space so that they can get what they didn't get. And until they commit themselves to treatment so that they can have the capacity even to love themselves and to meet their own needs.
They will not understand where you are coming from. And as long as they don't understand where you're coming from, they're not going to meet your needs because what are those needs? And they don't understand them.
Over to you, Faith.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Prof. It was [snorts] an eye-opener. I believe we have been moved from one place to another. Now we understand where you as a person you sit. I think it's a it's a good evaluation lesson that you've had. Thank you so much, Prof. And uh thank you you guys for your patience.
I want to invite Elder Patrick Kiyama from Utawala to kindly give a vote of thanks to Professor Catherine and also close for us with a word of prayer.
I believe we will find time. We need to invite Elder Cath- Professor Catherine again because uh I think this is just the beginning so we can be able to get more from her. Thank you so much. Elder Patrick, kindly kindly carry on.
Elder Patrick Kiyama >> Thank you. Thank you.
Uh we really appreciate for uh this kind of eye-opener uh Professor you did take us through and we really appreciate your time.
And we say thank you so much.
We can all say thank you a great way.
and uh Because we have been meeting people and we were not able to understand what they are really going through, but now it's it's clear to some of us, some of the elders I believe and even the members who are here that this may maybe a lot of people are going through even at this time.
And uh >> [clears throat] >> we we actually say thank you for your time.
And we look forward to more of this even as we work on work work through. We thank you. Thank you also for uh the Christian Education Office at the head office uh for planning this. We appreciate uh our patron Faith for the work that you have done and your team.
So, shall we bow our heads and pray?
Our dear loving Father, in the name of Jesus King of all the glory, we humble before you this evening. We say thank you, Lord.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music]
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