DEBATE: Can MAMDANI ARREST Israel’s Netanyahu in NYC. Former Trump Adviser & Author CLASH

[00:00:00]Well, for more on this, we're joined by Mike Dubke, who is a former White House communications director under President Trump. We're also joined by Khaled Algindi, who is a senior fellow at the Quincy Institute and the author of Blind Spot, America and the Palestinians, from Balfa to Trump. Both of you are joining us from Washington. Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us.

[00:00:20]Michael, let me put this first question to you. Um, clearly President Trump does not think Netanyahu will be arrested anywhere in the United States. The mayor of New York says he could be. Who should Americans believe?

[00:00:35]>> Well, I think in this instance u the last part of your uh uh outtake of Mandami was the most important which is he'll follow the uh the laws of New York City and the laws of of uh the United States. He has no jurisdiction. New York, the New York Police Department has no jurisdiction. Um, the US is not a signator to the ICC, the International Criminal Court. So, he can talk as much as he wants to about the HEG, but there's no there's no authority from any US uh police department uh through the FBI in terms of the ability to arrest a foreign leader. Um we also uh this is a federal uh this would be federal jurisdiction, not state or city. So he's got no leg to stand on there. And then finally, we've got a long history of having the United Nations in New York City and having many uh world leaders who have been in trouble either with the world court or even a neighboring state uh and they have not been arrested. So uh this is a lot of political theater right now and uh I think Bundami is enjoying it uh and and uh enjoying the spotlight. Okay, Holland, let me ask for your views. I mean clearly if he doesn't have the authority uh to to order Netanyahu's arrest were he to visit New York. Um Mamani is is engaging in a fairly hypothetical discussion. Why is he doing that? Is he um engaging in political theater as Mike suggested?

[00:02:05]Yeah, I mean I I I agree with uh uh the the point of view that we we just heard.

[00:02:11]The United States is not a signatory to uh to the Rome Statute that created the international criminal court. And so it's it's doubtful that uh that mayor Mandani would have that legal authority.

[00:02:26]But I don't think it's theater um in a sense of it being completely uh for show or without purpose. I think uh I think there is an important underlying question about accountability uh for the atrocities that we've seen over the last two and a half years in Gaza that we've all witnessed that have been well documented in Gaza now by an enormous array of of international uh rights groups and uh UN monitors uh commission of inquiry uh all of whom and there is a growing chorus now of voices who are calling what Israel is doing now in Gaza, a genocide. And so there is this fundamental question of accountability.

[00:03:11]Will there be accountability? Does the rules-based international order actually mean anything? Um or is that theater?

[00:03:21]And so I think that's the question that Mayor Mani is raising uh from his uh you know from his platform as mayor of America's largest city. So even though he doesn't have that authority legally or from the standpoint of e of of executing US foreign policy, it underscores the need for some form of accountability u by the international community.

[00:03:46]>> Okay, Michael. And we've established the ICC has obviously issued this uh arrest warrant for for Benjamin. That's not new. We've established the US isn't a member of that court. But picking up on what Khaled was saying there, shouldn't international law still matter? And is President Trump saying it doesn't?

[00:04:05]>> Well, I don't think President Trump's saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying I I think what he's saying here and what he's reacting to, which is very strangely to put this out there, a a domestic political theater. I I don't Here's where I'll disagree. I don't think Mayor Mandami is making the statements he is to the New York Times because he wants to make an international statement about atrocities in Israel or Palestine. I think what he's doing right now is playing his part in what is an ongoing civil war within the Democratic party between Democratic socialists that he represents and more establishment Democrats. So I a lot of this and the reason I say it's political theater and and what President Trump is reacting to is exactly that there has been a um a surge in Democrat socialism within the Democratic party in New York City in Colorado. There's a uh primary that will happen on August 4th in Michigan that will determine probably could determine the fate of the United States Senate. And a lot of this has to do with this anti-Israel strain that is now going through the Democratic Party. So from my perspective here in the United States, I think a lot of what Mandami is trying to do is utilize BB Netanyahu's visit in September for his own domestic purposes.

[00:05:28]Um maybe he's thinking uh internationally here but I I think this is a fairly cynical play on his part uh to affect domestic policy in the United States.

[00:05:39]>> Okay Khaled I mean cynical actions by Mandani. How do you respond to that? And and I also want to pick up on on something else. I mean Mani has described Netanyahu as being quote the architect of a genocide. And and just really as an extension of what Mike was saying, is language like that becoming increasingly mainstream in the ranks of the Democratic party?

[00:06:01]>> I I think it is. And I I think the question I mean, first of all, um Mayor Mdani is not the first uh New York mayor to u to articulate strong positions on foreign policy matters. I mean, this is a a long-standing tradition in New York going back many, many decades. New York is an international city. New York is the largest city in the United States.

[00:06:25]Um, and it's not the first time that a New York mayor has weighed in on the question of Israel, uh, in particular.

[00:06:31]So, um, so that's not new. There is, of course, always with any politician, I think there is always a domestic political angle. And I do think Mayor Mandani is speaking to a constituency in the United States, but it's not Democratic socialists. The divide within the Democratic party is not between uh the establishment of the of the party and the democratic socialists. It is between the grassroots, the voting base of the entire party, the vast majority of whom believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu has committed war crimes um and is guilty of atrocities and should be held accountable. So we're talking now about uh millions and millions of ordinary voters. Um the the the gap is between the voters and the party leadership. Uh there is a a new crop of politicians within the Democratic party um who are challenging the leadership's positions uh on these central questions. But um but I think it's important to note that this is a view that is frankly held by a majority of Americans. Most Americans would like to hold Israel accountable regardless of whether they're Democrats or Republicans or independents. They've seen the atrocities uh on their screens for almost three years. Um Israel is not well regarded across the board, including among Republicans because of those atrocities. So to to paint this I think as an issue of a small fringe of democratic socialists versus uh the the party leadership I think is not is is is disingenuous.

[00:08:18]>> Mike, let's shift the focus a little bit to the GOP here because it's quite interesting what Prime Minister Netanyahu said about Mandani. He accused him of secretly hating America and championing Hamas. And I'm wondering whether that kind of criticism resonates uh with within the Republican party and with people who vote Republican.

[00:08:40]>> I think it very much does and I first of all I have to take issue the vast majority of Americans may not like the actions taken over the last couple of years uh by uh the Israeli government, but they certainly understand why uh the invasion of Gaza happened. And and so I just want to I just want to lay out there that that I think this that is an overstatement to say that the majority of Americans are anti-Israel uh in in total. So first of all, let me say that. Secondly, I think when you do bring in uh Hamas, Hezbollah, and what the Houthis are now doing in terms of trying to shut down the the passage from the Red Sea to the Gulf of Aiden, there is a lot of um there's a lot of room uh within the Republican party uh to look at those non-state actors, understand uh the funding that they had received from Iran and make that part of what the president is talking about in terms of US engagement with Iran. So there is an audience for that. Um and I think there continues to be um there there will continue to be an audience um for that as well. In terms of the Democratic party, I look I'm a Republican. So when I see the other the opposition fighting amongst themselves, I just want to sit back and watch. Uh but I do think that there is a fundamental shift within the Democratic party and the in the way that uh either the leaders or the the the younger members or whomever view Israel view Palestine and we're seeing that play out.

[00:10:13]>> Khaled, I've got to let you respond to that because what Mike's saying there is is is that he flatly disagrees with your assessment that the majority of Americans are somehow uh critical of Israel and and and by default sympathetic to the Palestinians. H how can you counter that?

[00:10:30]>> Yeah, I mean I think all you have to do is look at the polling trends over the past few years and you see that in in virtually every single American demographic, it's more pronounced certainly on the left and and and left-leaning constituencies, people of color, women, young people in particular are uh overwhelmingly u by a vast majority uh sympathize with Palestinians over Israelis. But we are seeing a similar dynamic, not identical but a similar dynamic happening on the right as well where there is a growing um I I think if you look at uh people who identify as conservative or as Republican who are under the age of 30 um there's a very clear trend there.

[00:11:14]It's not a a majority uh who uh are critical of Israel. It's it's certainly a plurality. So the trend lines that we're seeing are actually um uh that are more critical of Israel because of these atrocities are across the board with a with a handful of exceptions. Um on this question of um uh you know President Trump labeling it, you know, support for Hamas. I mean this is this is what actually is constitutes political theater. It's it's silly. It's um it's frankly um I think an a pretty transparent attempt at galvanizing Islamophobia um and sort of tapping into this these fears among a um a a strand of the MAGA movement of of conservatives uh who are fearful of Muslims who dislike Muslims who would like to disenfranchise American Muslims. This is a very important constituency in the Republican uh umbrella. We hear very Islamophobic statements by Republican leaders in Congress, in various states like Texas. The the governor there has made some um very uh offensive statements that if they were stated by about any other group, there would be unanimous condemnation. So, I think the president is appealing to a a kind of um bigotry that exists within the Republican base that that doesn't like Muslims, that doesn't want to see uh Muslims in in public life. And by associating a a Muslim mayor of New York with Hamas, uh I I think that is what he's trying to achieve. I mean, it's a it's sort of a cheap political point scoring exercise uh rooted in bigotry and not one that anyone can take seriously.

[00:13:11]>> Okay, we've got a couple of minutes left. Mike, let me turn to you. Um let's get back to the idea of um what we began with, which is, you know, could Netanyahu be arrested? I mean, supposing um Mayor Mamani did issue NYPD with instructions to arrest him on arrival in September, how would the White House react in such a scenario?

[00:13:32]>> Oh, I think they'd react uh swiftly. Um be I I didn't even mention the fact that he's got diplomatic immunity. Again, I was referencing the UN and and leaders that have been there uh in the past, but I think the White House would react swiftly on this. And both, you know, strangely, both sides would probably uh be happy with that type of uh political theater. I'm going to continue using that word to this. Uh the White House would like to be seen as as strong and and um standing up. Uh and I think Mundami's uh supporters would love for to see him try to uh arrest um Netanyahu when he lands here. I don't think any of that is going to happen because beyond what we've been talking about. Um there are there there are serious consequences to those types of actions. Uh it would put a chill on other foreign leaders coming to the United States and visiting the UN. I mean there's this this would go uh uh deep and long, but uh to answer your question, I think both would uh both the White House and probably Gracie Mansion in New York City would would relish that that uh that site. Khaled, I'm going to give you the last word because you only got a couple of minutes left. Um, obviously Netanyahu is expected to be in New York in September.

[00:14:47]Are you expecting a genuine political uh diplomatic showdown or uh do you think that's highly unlikely?

[00:14:57]Yeah, I tend to agree that it's probably unlikely that we're going to see any real action toward the arrest of of Prime Minister Netanyahu when he's in New York or in the United States uh for all the reasons that have already been outlined. He doesn't have the United States doesn't have the court doesn't have jurisdiction in the United States because we are not a signatory to uh to that treaty. Um so it's unlikely to happen. Um, but I but I do think it it's an important point and let's not forget that this is coming at a moment when the Trump administration has announced a global effort to dismantle the international criminal court which which is sort of interesting again precisely because of this reason. US is not a signatory to uh to this court. US is not a part of this court. So why is it seeking to dismantle it? Uh again, I think it raises questions about challenging a major international institution um not for reasons of US interests but for the benefit of a foreign uh government uh and for foreign leaders.

[00:16:00]And I think that is something Americans have to question as well.

[00:16:04]>> Okay. Well, we're going to have to leave it there. You've had the last word, Khaled Algindi. Thank you very much indeed to you for taking the time to speak to us and thank you as well to our other participant Mike Dubke. Thank you very much to you as well. Thank you.