Five-Step Argument for God FLOPS at Step ONE | Forrest Valkai & Justin DZ

Added: 2026-05-04

[00:00:00]Let's do Ryan then. Yeah, Ryan calling in says he has a strong argument for God. Let's talk about it. You're on the line with Forest and Justin. How you doing today?

[00:00:10]>> I'm doing well. How are you folks doing?

[00:00:12]>> Doing well. Thanks for asking.

[00:00:13]>> Never had a bad day, man.

[00:00:16]>> Never.

[00:00:17]>> So, Ryan be >> Yeah. Never ever.

[00:00:22]>> All right.

[00:00:24]All right.

[00:00:25]With uh with some truth. Okay.

[00:00:28]Is this a a generic god that you're arguing for or a specific god?

[00:00:35]>> I think the argument that I would make is I think for for a creator in general say specifically to Christianity although we could go down that path but I think it's it's more valuable I think to start from a fundamental level.

[00:00:53]>> Sure. Yeah. because it's easier to uh give an argument for a generic god rather than a specific god, which is fine. I'm just trying to see where you're coming from. So, what's the argument? Is it premise based or is it just kind of loosey goosey?

[00:01:07]>> Well, it's so it's a fivestep. Um I think the the the the biggest step, the first step is that something i.e., you know, the universe, the world that we're in cannot come from nothing.

[00:01:22]So nothing means no matter, no energy, no laws, no potential, nothing. It has by logic no capacity to produce anything. Nothing has no ability uh whatsoever.

[00:01:36]>> How do you um >> I I said I was going to let you take the lead on this, but I'm immediately curious about what that means.

[00:01:44]>> I know.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah. I mean, nothing nothing is nothing. I mean, so and something cannot come from nothing.

[00:01:52]That's that's the first step of a five-step process to understand the way that I understand it.

[00:01:58]>> And just to be clear, you said the world can't come from nothing or the universe or what what word did you use specifically?

[00:02:05]>> Nothing can come from nothing.

[00:02:07]Everything come from nothing. And I think initially I said something cannot come from nothing.

[00:02:14]>> Okay, I'm just going to write something can't come from nothing then because I'm taking notes. And I do have I immediately have several questions >> and a big problem with that, but I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna let Justin tell where the call goes.

[00:02:27]>> I appreciate you buddy. Um >> um so that's so premise two is that the universe exists, >> right?

[00:02:37]>> I agree.

[00:02:38]>> You know, it we agree on something. Hey, >> building bridges.

[00:02:42]>> We get to step two, right?

[00:02:44]It contains many contains.

[00:02:47]>> You actually could just do a conclusion after this.

[00:02:50]>> This this is the identical to one of my favorite arguments.

[00:02:56]>> Um, cool. So, I think we're getting close. So, I mean, the third step and I think probably the most I think important to to this whole thing is that the universe did not come from nothing. Right? If it did, >> well, that's a con that's a conclusion.

[00:03:12]>> Something would have come from nothing.

[00:03:13]which which we know is impossible. We know that something cannot come from nothing. So the universe >> that's a conclusion, not a premise.

[00:03:22]>> Well, building.

[00:03:25]>> All right. So, we'll do number one.

[00:03:28]>> Got >> and then and then we're at we're at number four, right? I I and I think you could probably organize it a little bit better than I am. I think you can get more nuanced with it, but the universe >> is not just something. It's an ordered, it's an informationrich system with physical laws, >> mathematical regularity, you know, stable and predictable cause and effect.

[00:04:00]>> Yeah.

[00:04:01]>> Uhhuh. So premise number one of the second argument is that the universe is ordered.

[00:04:09]>> Well, I think that's two something. I think it's it's a very it's a very complex something. It's not and I think it's just an enhancement of step three.

[00:04:17]Like not only is it >> just something it's a very complex >> very I mean the most complex thing >> that we would even know, right?

[00:04:30]>> Yeah. So, >> so what's what's the next par >> going to five and and this is where the faith comes in. You know, an ordered informationrich system is best explained by intelligence. So, I don't think something can come from nothing. That's known. The universe is something.

[00:04:46]Therefore, it didn't come from nothing.

[00:04:50]and it's a very advanced something and it has rules mathematical regularity and fine-tune uh and predictable stable cause and effect. Therefore, um I think the best explanation is a creator. An example is you know code implies there's a programmer, language implies that there's a mind, right? Go ahead, >> Steve. Steven Meyer. Yeah, Steven Meyer's like one line that he uses over and over. Just to be clear, you said you said it it is best explained by a designer or did you mean to say it must come from a intelligent designer?

[00:05:24]>> Which which one are we going with here?

[00:05:26]>> I believe it's best I believe it's best explained by intelligent design.

[00:05:31]>> Um okay. I think you know what makes us human is is faith >> and uh choosing to believe that.

[00:05:41]>> Right. Yeah. Right. Okay.

[00:05:42]>> Yeah. We're past though. We're past the five. Yeah. We've reached the end of the of the logic behind it, right?

[00:05:48]>> Two actually independent arguments here, which is fine. You've got the the argument from nothing and the argument from order. So, the the first um premise, I mean, I I could argue it, I don't think it's worth my time. Um I can agree with premise number one, something can't come from nothing. While I I do know arguments against that, I think it's unnecessary to give it because premise number two um gives you a more proper conclusion. Something exists.

[00:06:13]First conclusion should be there was never nothing. So I agree. You and I both agree a little bit on the first argument. Something can't come from nothing. We have something therefore there was never nothing.

[00:06:23]>> Disagree for the for the for the sake of argument. You got a different Yeah.

[00:06:27]>> Now the reason why I'm saying this is because I don't believe the universe ever began. I think the universe is eternal. I don't think there's any reason to believe there was once no universe. And therefore my conclusion is that the universe is eternal. Not that God is the something that created it.

[00:06:45]Now, uh, we got an argument. Actually, I'm point this way. There we go. We got an argument from Forest on premise number one, and I think I know where he's going to go, but I'll live to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you Well, you've given us, you know, five five premises, and then also the six, the bonus thing, which is faith is what makes us human.

[00:07:01]Um, of the five original, I disagree with three of them. And then I strongly disagree with faith makes us human, which I know wasn't part of your argument, but it it was a wild thing to say at the end there. Um, so I disagree with number one, three, and five. Uh, something can't come from nothing. Don't don't have a reason to believe that's true. The universe didn't come from nothing. Don't have a reason to believe that's true. Um, and also I I don't think that's an accurate representation of the opposition's argument. Um, and then such a system is best explained by intelligent design. Strongly disagree on that one. I agree with you. The universe exists and that it is uh ordered with laws and information and so on and so forth.

[00:07:39]order.

[00:07:40]>> So, if you want, we are are we going through one at a time or what are we doing? Because I'm I'm down to just build off what Justin said and give the alter alternate angle.

[00:07:51]>> Well, if it was ordered, then help me understand how >> uh the the laws of nature just the the way the universe is naturally allows things to fall into these ordered systems. Um, great example of that is gravity, which naturally creates spheres. If gravity works the way gravity works, you know, with massive objects bending spaceime and pulling other massive objects toward the center, spheres are a natural result of that.

[00:08:20]And so planets and stars being spherical naturally follows. Planets orbiting stars naturally follows. um flat flat planetary discs with all the planets more or less on the same flat plane naturally follows. Um most of the processes on that that you know work on on Earth and that that allow for things like life and all this stuff naturally follow. Um the shape of galaxies naturally follows. So all of the order and everything that we see that we that people like to point to all can just come from in this case just as one example just gravity existing the nature of the shape of spaceime. So just the way the universe is structured allows for these systems to be what we would what we would call order, >> right? And and how how can all of that infinite chaos be orchestrated and and compiled in such a way where you and I two sentient beings are are having this conversation and reflecting on the we're essentially the universe reflecting on itself.

[00:09:26]>> Um >> um >> so you're >> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:09:30]>> What would be um four I guess four steps I guess I think four steps. Yes. Um, first is gravity, then is nucleiosynthesis, then is more gravity, then is aiogenesis. I lied.

[00:09:46]It's five steps. And then the fifth step is evolution. All of which are natural processes that are fairly well understood to differing degrees, I suppose.

[00:09:55]>> And I don't even I don't even disagree with that. I think that's a pretty cool way of looking at it. And but at the same time, I think you have to go back to what started it. And that goes back to my very first piece, which is something cannot come from nothing.

[00:10:07]nothing by definition >> uh has no capacity to produce.

[00:10:12]>> Well, >> there are no lies. There is no potential.

[00:10:15]>> I don't accept that.

[00:10:16]>> You sure?

[00:10:17]>> Yeah. Not only is that claim being questioned, but I don't think either of us believe there was ever nothing. Do you believe there was ever nothing?

[00:10:25]>> No. I Well, well, that's I don't know is the thing. So when you keep talking about nothing, the biggest hang-up that I have is that I have no idea what nothing is because I have never seen nothing. I have never interacted with nothing. I have never run any tests on nothing. I have no samples of nothing that I can look at in a lab. I don't know what nothing can or can't be or can or can't do. As far as I know, it is purely a philosophical concept. And I don't think that the universe was born of philosophy. So I I just I don't accept the premise because I >> No, I don't I literally just said I don't know if nothing ever was a thing.

[00:11:04]>> And and when we talk about like say for example the Big Bang, >> I I don't claim nor does any scientist I've ever spoken to or worked with claim that nothing was before the Big Bang or that nothing caused the Big Bang. I can say honestly I don't know what was the big what was before the big bang because I don't know what the the what I don't know what the concept of before the big bang even is because the big bang fundamentally was the beginning of space and time as we understand it today. So before that is literally before the concept of before existed. What happened before time started? That doesn't make any [ __ ] sense. And it would also be outside of the entire universe outside of everywhere. a place that isn't in a time that can't. That doesn't make any sense. So, I'm not saying there isn't an answer. I'm saying I don't have any access to the answer, nor do I have appropriate questions to ask. So, I'm just not going to say I don't know.

[00:12:00]>> Um I I am just simply going to say I don't know, and I'm not going to make up a philosophical argument that becomes a physics argument.

[00:12:12]I'm just saying it's a very impressive nothing that we're that you and I are are experiencing right now is a very impressive uh something uh that came from nothing.

[00:12:22]And I and I think even just that came from nothing.

[00:12:27]>> Yes. I'm going to repeat again. I didn't say that anything does come from nothing. I didn't say the universe comes from nothing. I don't know if nothing ever existed or what it even is. So if you say if if you say again that I believe the universe came from nothing, I'm just going to start calling you a liar because you have now been told like four or five times, I don't believe that, nor does any atheist or scientist I believe.

[00:12:56]>> Yes, the universe started the universe as we know it started with the big bang, >> right? And so what brought those forces together into one small minuscule hairpin? Well, you know, >> can you actually can you please >> can you So, first of all, the Big Bang didn't explode into the Earth.

[00:13:16]>> Second of all, I already answered that question.

[00:13:21]>> I It sounded like that's what you said.

[00:13:22]Forgive me if I misheard you, but I did already answer that question. So, I would love for you to repeat back to me what I said specifically about that question already just a minute ago.

[00:13:39]Um, I think you're saying that you don't know if nothing was ever a thing.

[00:13:46]>> No. What did I say specifically about what caused the Big Bang?

[00:13:50]>> Cuz I I answered that question specifically.

[00:13:52]>> I think you said you don't know. You said you don't know.

[00:13:57]>> That's that's more or less what I said.

[00:13:58]I also made it very clear that the concept, the actual question you just asked doesn't make any sense given the laws of physics that we currently understand. I don't know what before the big bang or caused the big bang means in order to ask that question.

[00:14:18]>> I feel like I'm rambling again and we're just on this thing and I wanted Justin to take this call. being this being that we're talking about that can transcend time and create things and create a >> that takes all matter into the universe into one pin point.

[00:14:34]>> It's like you're having a different conversation, Ryan. Who are you talking about? Now, >> did we bring up a being at all?

[00:14:42]>> No, I just >> Ryan, I just I I just want to stress this, right? So, like this is a these conversations get frustrating because this we're going to play this out. We're going to model the conversation for you so you can see what's happening here.

[00:14:56]Um, Forest, can you ask me how my day was?

[00:14:59]>> How was your day, Justin?

[00:15:01]>> Pineapple.

[00:15:02]Maybe try again.

[00:15:03]>> Right. Right. How But but but how was your day though?

[00:15:07]>> [ __ ] Tootsie Rolls.

[00:15:08]>> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Can you please explain how Tootsie Rolls came from nothing?

[00:15:14]See, when we ask you questions, like you're not really answering our questions. When you ask us questions, we actually answer your questions. And then once we answer your question, you just veer off into a new topic. So, let's start from the beginning. Neither one of us are convinced that there was ever nothing. That's not a claim that science makes. In fact, at one of the recent physics conferences that Dr. Blitz went to, they put out a survey and he was nice enough to share it with us. And the survey question was, "In your opinion, what should we understand about the Big Bang?" And there were uh a couple different options. Obviously, you had an other. Some people picked other. Some people said, "I don't have an opinion."

[00:15:54]And then here are the other three options. One, the Big Bang is an absolute beginning of time with a singularity at its start. Number two is an absolute beginning of time, but without a singularity. Option number three is a theory that says the universe evolved from a hot dense state that says nothing about whether there was an absolute beginning of time or not. 68% of the participants picked that one.

[00:16:18]Overwhelmingly only only 11% said that they think time started at the big bang.

[00:16:24]6% said that time started at the big bang but with no singularity. So physicists are not out here saying that time and all matter and all things began at the big bang. We don't have the tools to take measurements from prior to the big bang which that's where our scientific understanding stops. Well, at least our scientific evidence. We have other evidence that would suggest that there was stuff prior to the big bang.

[00:16:51]And lots of physicists and cosmologists have ideas. There's quantum foam.

[00:16:55]There's all kinds of different inflation theories. there's um cyclical universe models. But the idea that there was once nothing and then something arose is not an opinion that I hold. I don't think it's an opinion that forest holds and I don't think it's opinion >> that the consensus of science teaches.

[00:17:14]So, if you keep saying that we're arguing for something, hold on, hold on, hold on. You keep insisting that we believe that something came from nothing and we never stated that.

[00:17:27]>> We've said the opposite several times.

[00:17:29]>> No, >> I think you I think you that premise in the initial logically it's very I mean it's it's true in the world. It's a law of of the world is that something can come from nothing.

[00:17:41]>> No, it's not.

[00:17:41]>> It absolutely is.

[00:17:43]>> Yeah.

[00:17:44]Okay. Where is this law written that what nothings have you observed that produce something?

[00:17:50]>> Yeah, Ryan, what nothings have you run tests on to see what they can and can't produce?

[00:17:59]>> It's a logical exercise. It's, you know, >> as I just said a minute ago, I don't think the universe was created by philosophy. So, you can sit here and do this logical exercise. That's fine.

[00:18:12]Science isn't always intuitive in that way. Sometimes it's very surprising, especially in my field. So like I don't know what nothing is. Neither Justin or I believe that nothing ever existed. I don't think that something came from nothing. Neither does Justin. We don't know why the universe started. We have a lot of questions about it and we're trying to find the answers. Neither one of us are physicists.

[00:18:35]Next question.

[00:18:37]>> So where why? What's the evidence?

[00:18:41]What's the argument for why we would believe or anyone should believe that the universe once didn't exist? That's the argument I'm really interested in.

[00:18:50]>> That's a good question.

[00:18:52]>> Well, I think that's >> because we know it exists.

[00:18:54]>> I think our most I think the most common understanding is that it came from the Big Bang. And >> no, I didn't um Nope, that's not my question. I didn't say how far back can we measure.

[00:19:04]>> Whatever.

[00:19:05]>> I said what's the evidence that it didn't exist once? The Big Bang isn't positing that nothing gave rise to something. What's the evidence that the universe prior to the Big Bang did not exist?

[00:19:23]>> I don't know. And perhaps the universe is one of many universes.

[00:19:28]>> I Or maybe our observable universe >> all of those universes.

[00:19:34]>> Yeah. And also our observable universe literally could be a tiny speck in a much larger universe. We have no idea the scope of our universe. Like the minute we say that there was once no universe, now we're talking about things we have no knowledge of. It's just like if I said definitively I know that our universe has a boundary, but [ __ ] we don't have the tools to know that. I can't make that claim. Well, and I haven't even you just you just have to from a logical perspective, you have to understand that nothing means zero. I mean, we've understood as a human species what zero was, I think, for several thousands of years.

[00:20:14]>> I can it's a reinvention. I know I know it's abstract for you, but I can sit here and be able to grasp the idea. I can sit here and give you logical explanations and logical concepts of what leprechauns are and how they work and what they would do and why and logically what their physiology would be. None of it means that [ __ ] leprechauns exist. So like yes, I agree.

[00:20:36]We can all sit here and philosophically comprehend the concept of nothing. That doesn't mean that nothing exists. It doesn't mean that nothing has ever existed. And it certainly doesn't tell us what nothing can or can't do in reality.

[00:20:48]>> Okay.

[00:20:50]No, it does though because because the universe exists. Uh that means, you know, we didn't come from nothing.

[00:21:00]>> I didn't agree with the initial premise.

[00:21:02]>> None of us none of us said we did. We just said I All I said is I don't know if that's true or not.

[00:21:09]>> I didn't say we did. I just said I don't know if we're true or not. I'm curious to know like did you get the entire script from the Discovery Institute or do you have something >> for sure? for sure.

[00:21:19]>> Do you have something new that like >> you brought to your table yourself?

[00:21:23]>> I'm curious under like Well, there's this one idea I heard I got from a guy called Peter Begoian. Have you guys ever heard of him?

[00:21:31]>> Unfortunately. So, >> uh, I think he's an interesting guy and I like one thing that he did at one point where he asked someone on on, you know, he does this street epistemology where people are on a spectrum and they express their ideas and he says to someone who's on the very far end of the spectrum, he's >> he says, "Under what conditions would you be wrong?" Like, under under what conditions would would the conclusion that you've reached be undermined and you'd be flipped to the other. And he found that the people who said under absolutely no conditions could it ever be flipped. Those are the people who you can't get through to no matter what. But the people who can actually say okay well under this condition and this condition and this condition you know then I would change my mind completely. Um and I wonder where you folks fall on that spectrum.

[00:22:22]And in this entire deviation from the conversation what a wild pivot. So, like here's the thing. We're not even done with your two arguments and now you're trying to move on to something else. I ask you a direct question. Under what conditions I know you did and and I'm not going to answer until we finish your two arguments. We're not doing a third until your first two are done.

[00:22:44]>> And and because the very far end of the spectrum, >> we're certainly not pinned. If you would actually engage in an adult conversation, you can understand why your argument doesn't work. You want to hear why it doesn't work. Sure.

[00:22:59]>> Or did did you come to preach?

[00:23:03]>> Okay. No, go ahead.

[00:23:04]>> Oh, premise number one, you can't get something from nothing. I can agree to that. Premise number two, the universe exists. Conclusion, there was never no universe.

[00:23:11]>> Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can agree with that. You can agree with the initial premise I thought you said for 15 minutes 20 minutes ago.

[00:23:17]>> I told you 20 minutes ago. It's like you don't listen, Ryan. So, try to pay attention.

[00:23:21]>> You said that you did agree. I told you.

[00:23:23]Then you said you didn't agree. And then you said you >> I didn't know. Do you do you understand?

[00:23:28]Do you understand that there are two people speaking to you >> because Justin said from the very beginning that he agrees with that. I said I take issue with it and then we talked about the possibility for like 10 miserable minutes and now we're trying to summarize and move to the next thing.

[00:23:46]>> Okay. So, >> okay. My conclusion for your first argument is that there was never nothing because I believe the universe, time, space, and matter is eternal. And if matter isn't eternal, then it's still just quantum foam. Quantum foam gives rise to what we call matter. It's not even a thing. So I don't believe there was ever nothing. Therefore, I don't need a magic man in the sky to invent something from nothing. Argument number two, the reason why this fails is because order is a subjective word. When we look at something, we're just looking to say, well, it looks like it's ordered because it has some sort of pattern to it.

[00:24:26]>> And we already had an argument subjective.

[00:24:30]>> I'm not talking about mathematic. I'm talking about order. Try to follow along. So, Forest already gave you an argument for it. You weren't listening.

[00:24:38]>> I'm sure it does. I'm not talking about math. already gave you.

[00:24:42]>> So, so you're basically saying hardware is objective and that's horseshit.

[00:24:46]>> No, I didn't say any of that.

[00:24:47]>> And you are also and you are also essentially declaring that mathematics is discovered, not invented, which is a major debate even in mathematics. So, you are taking a hard stance on something that is currently debated in the field that you are being ignorant about.

[00:25:02]>> I'm not making a statement about mathematics.

[00:25:05]My worldview there's a lot of assumptions. I'm making a statement about the word order. your worldview.

[00:25:12]>> Hey Ryan, can you listen for 5 seconds?

[00:25:14]>> Did I say anything about math?

[00:25:16]>> Sure.

[00:25:18]>> No, I did.

[00:25:19]>> Okay. I I'm not talking about math.

[00:25:21]>> Talk about order and >> talk about order.

[00:25:23]>> No, but you said order.

[00:25:25]>> Right. Listen. And we see order in mathemat.

[00:25:28]>> Okay. Well, now I just have to mute you.

[00:25:30]I know that math has order. I'm not asking you about math. I'm asking you about the word order. The word order has a definition and it's not equal to math.

[00:25:41]If you look up the word order in the dictionary, it doesn't say C math.

[00:25:45]>> No, if you could focus, I'm talking specifically about the word order because the word order shows up in your argument. The word math doesn't show up in your argument. I'm addressing your argument right now. So, do you think that order is something that is subjective or objective?

[00:26:11]Um I think it depends on the complexity and breadth of the order.

[00:26:17]I think there are circles and spheres are circles and spheres objectively ordered or do we subjectively call that ordered?

[00:26:32]Are circles and spheres ordered?

[00:26:35]>> Um, no. I think we just call them ordered.

[00:26:38]>> You got it. And snow. Hold on. We're We're going to get there. I just asked you yes or no. I don't need any more tangents.

[00:26:44]>> Okay.

[00:26:44]>> Okay. Snowflakes. Are snowflakes ordered?

[00:26:52]>> Um, individually, yes. Uh, outside of that, no.

[00:26:58]>> Fair enough. Are crystals ordered? Keep in mind snowflake's a [ __ ] crystal.

[00:27:03]But fine.

[00:27:07]>> Well, I think if you look at it like molecularly, I think there there are we found that, you know, molecules and and minerals have a structure, a specific order.

[00:27:18]>> You nailed it. Yes. Okay. Because chemicals can only bond in certain ways, it develops order. That's why the snowflake always has like five arms is because the way that the molecules bond to each other, it can only develop five arms. It can't develop 25 arms, right?

[00:27:35]So the the way physics works, right, the way chemistry works allows things to order. And we look at that and we say, "Oh, that looks ordered." That means the word order is subjective. We're determining what is ordered and what is not ordered. Right? So when I look at the universe around me, I say, "Listen, there's some like uh biology that has developed." Well, we're going to call that order, but I could easily not call that order because it's a subjective word. I can easily just draw lines around something else. I can say it's only ordered if it's like created by a human being. Like when we're talking about what is ordered and what is not, we're saying, listen, this is a huge subjective gray area. Some people are going to look at something and say it's ordered. They're going to look at the mud puddle in my backyard and say it's not ordered. And then you're going to look at raindrops and say that it is ordered. But there's really not that much different between mud puddle and a raindrop. So my whole point is your argument doesn't work because you're using the word ordered. And the word ordered when we look at the universe is inherently subjective in nature. I'm looking at the universe and I'm saying I don't see an ordered universe. I see a universe that's mostly chaos. And while we can have pockets of order develop spontaneously on its own within a large chaotic universe, the universe overall is disorganized and chaotic. Which is why even our little pocket in the universe where we've got some order, we've got life, it's going to get destroyed. It's going to get annihilated. We're not going to exist forever.

[00:29:11]>> Yeah, that may be true.

[00:29:14]And perfect example form or whatever.

[00:29:17]>> Yeah. Perfect example.

[00:29:18]>> I believe if you if you put your faith in Jesus Christ, I believe you can have eternal life.

[00:29:23]>> There we go. Here comes the preaching.

[00:29:24]I'm sure. Perfect example. I've got a bottle full of beads. I'm going to be fair. I wasn't preaching before, but I was preaching just now.

[00:29:32]>> I'm going to mix it up. And look, I didn't do anything. God didn't intervene and it sorted itself, right? This is physics. This is not God. It's just physics. So my point is I I don't think the argument works because you can't define what order is. And until you can define what order is, there's no argument from order. Now I love agree physical laws.

[00:29:54]>> I love the idea >> that you think Jesus can save.

[00:29:59]>> That is fun.

[00:30:00]>> That's a whole thing.

[00:30:00]>> What is Jesus saving us from?

[00:30:05]>> Uh I I believe our own sins. I believe if if you take your sins and all the things that you don't like about yourself that are causing pain and destruction and you yourself, your family, I believe these things are not good. And I believe if you put them at the cross of Jesus Christ, uh you will >> Yeah. Yeah. We listen, we know the gospel. I'm saying I'm saying what are we being saved from? Like if if I if I said I saved forest, you might ask me what do you save him from? I saved this guy from a burning building, right?

[00:30:37]Which I [ __ ] would, by the way. I would run into that building to make sure forest got out safely. All I'm saying is when you say that Jesus, you know, is going to save us, what's he saving us from?

[00:30:49]>> I think he's saving us from our anim animalistic nature. I think he's saving us from our sins.

[00:30:56]I think he's protecting us. Uh I think he's separating animals. I think he's created he's created And I think you're dodging the actual question.

[00:31:06]>> Okay. Because that's what wrong answer because if I sit if I'm in the burning building, I'm not being saved from a building. I'm not being saved from being in a building. I'm being saved from a specific thing that happens to me if I remain in that building. God's not saving us from sin. He's saving us from a specific thing that happens if we live in sin and do not get saved. That's what we're asking. What's the thing that happens that God's actually saving us from?

[00:31:40]>> I think the the pain that comes from the decisions that that we make that are against >> the still the wrong answer. The answer is hell. Jesus is saving you from hell because as it turns out like here on the on the earth like I like nothing's going to change. It's like whether I sin or don't sin, whether I believe in Jesus or not, none of that is different, right?

[00:32:04]Nothing changes in my life. But what does change is the afterlife, right? If I accept the sky carcass as my Lord and Savior. Um then when the cumulus zombie comes back to earth, you know, I'll be risen to life and I'll get to live forever with uh with Jesus, right?

[00:32:19]Rather than going to hell. So Jesus saves you from hell, correct?

[00:32:27]I believe so.

[00:32:28]>> Okay. So, now let's go back to my analogy. Imagine you saw me run into that house fire and you saw me sprint out carrying force on my back and you thought I was a hero and then a week later you read the newspaper and you find out that I lit that [ __ ] house on fire. Am I still a savior?

[00:32:49]>> No, but my I was uh believing the wrong thing. Well, I don't You weren't a savior in the first place. You never were a savior. If you if you live on the first place, you may be perceived that way.

[00:33:01]>> There you go. Yeah. So, Jesus saving you >> is akin to rescuing you from the burning building that he lit on fire. Nobody has to go to hell. It's a false dichconomy.

[00:33:15]>> Well, so the reason that that I don't buy that is because I believe he gave me life in the first place and he's giving me rules. So, so if I was Justin's child, >> if I was Justin's child, then he could light a building on fire and then remove me from the building and then he would be praised.

[00:33:36]>> No, he he lit the fire, >> right?

[00:33:40]>> Exactly.

[00:33:40]>> And God and God made hell, >> right? So listen, if God saves you from the thing that he created, >> I know it doesn't matter if God >> if God is only saving you from the thing that he created, then he's not saving you from anything.

[00:33:57]Like he he could just not create hell, right? So I we'll do a a really easy uh question and answer, right? Yes or no?

[00:34:06]Could God have created the wages of sin something other than going to hell for eternity?

[00:34:15]Um, you know, I don't think so. I I think it's like a balance. I think there's good. He's not all powerful.

[00:34:22]Yeah, exactly. He's not all powerful then. He's limited in his power.

[00:34:25]>> Wild. So, God >> Well, I think he created creates his own rules.

[00:34:31]>> What? I I agree. He creates his own rules.

[00:34:32]>> Enjoys his own rules.

[00:34:34]>> Okay, we got it. Except for that he also does.

[00:34:36]>> It's like a balance sheet, >> right? So God creates his own rules which means >> God creates his own >> and that balance sheet says that there's good and there's evil.

[00:34:47]>> Proverbs 10:19 where there is many words transgression is not far off. Adding more words to a sentence won't make your argument good.

[00:34:55]Just try to be concise here.

[00:34:57]>> So if God was required to make hell, what was what was causing that requirement to exist?

[00:35:06]See, I don't I don't agree with the requirement word. Okay, >> you said it, not me. Okay, we'll try this again. I >> think that's >> required to make hell.

[00:35:18]>> Um I don't think required is the right word. I think I think >> is the right word in in the in the same way that he he created evolution to create humans. caused him to make it.

[00:35:34]>> Caused to make what?

[00:35:36]>> Hell.

[00:35:38]>> When God created hell, >> God make hell.

[00:35:40]>> What's What's the cause?

[00:35:42]>> I think I think I think he I think the word hell is something that we use to describe a state of despair. And I think I think the majority of this is figurative in the sense that >> No way. Well, that's that's >> Well, let's just let's just ask like just cuz it sounds like you're getting so caught up on semantics that we're going to have to go through this just piece by piece.

[00:36:06]>> Do you believe that there is a literal actual place called hell where souls go to experience conscious torture in literal or figurative fire for eternity?

[00:36:16]A place as Jesus said of the wailing and nashing of teeth and sulfur and fire and brimstone and and unrelenting pain and whatever the [ __ ] else is in the Bible.

[00:36:26]Do you think that actual place exists?

[00:36:30]>> I don't think it's describing an actual place and I don't think that that place exists.

[00:36:36]>> So then when you talk about saving us from sin >> and all of us, >> you mean you mean God is saving us from being kind of sad?

[00:36:49]>> Not only that, I mean um >> Well, I'm [ __ ] okay with that. sad.

[00:36:55]>> Wait, am I in hell right now?

[00:36:56]>> Sad. But there's there's so many aspects of anguish that as humans we can comprehend.

[00:37:03]>> I all the roots of those.

[00:37:06]>> I can be sad all day long and then I die and then the sadness stops because there's no more conscious experience after death apparently.

[00:37:14]>> Dope.

[00:37:18]>> And then I don't believe that. I I believe that uh you know we meet with God and I believe um >> he asks in our heart.

[00:37:29]>> I believe after we die where we go >> when I die when I die do I meet with God?

[00:37:37]>> Um >> yeah I guess.

[00:37:41]>> Okay. And and what happens when I meet with God? Because according to the Bible, I'm going to be judged for being a non-believer >> and then I'm going to be thrown into hell. The Bible says, according to Revelation 2:18, that because I'm a non-believer, >> when the judgment comes, I will be thrown into the lake of fire. That's the second death. Do you think I'll be thrown into a lake of fire and experience the second death?

[00:38:09]You know, I think you're personally, obviously I'm not the one to judge this, but I think personally uh you you will not get thrown into the fire personally.

[00:38:17]I think you're you seem like a really nice guy. And I think when you're faced with the glory of God and you're meeting your creator and I think I think you pray a good person is like water on a duck's back. It just rolls right off. Like what water? I didn't hear no questions. So Ryan, what you're saying then is that Jesus died for nothing.

[00:38:42]>> Like if Jesus if Jesus dying and me not believing in any of this according but the Bible says I'm going to like I'm not going to go with Jesus, right? According to uh Romans 10:9 and 10, I have to actually believe in the cumulus cadaavver. So, like if Jesus dying doesn't affect my afterlife, he he died for nothing and God's just like a a weird guy that like really wanted to murder his son.

[00:39:09]>> Well, I I I think it it will kind of be for nothing in the sense that you're it's like an opportunity cost. Like you're missing out on a lot of experience. you know, obviously if if you you know, there's one thing that you said that kind of stuck with me, and that's that um if you added Jesus into your life, nothing would change. And that's, as we know, mathematically impossible. You can't add something to your life and have nothing change. I would be curious is wild. I can also >> I can agree with that. If I added Jesus into my life, I would be significantly less happy and significantly less free and that would change.

[00:39:51]>> I think that this is kind of a category error >> like dividing by zero because like if you add Jesus, you're adding nothing to your life. So theoretically, nothing should change.

[00:40:02]>> There you go.

[00:40:05]>> I just I can't get away from the fact that like this just keeps going back.

[00:40:10]>> Yeah, Justin, try being Christian for a minute. If only I thought only have if I thought about that. Oh jeez. Ryan, do you know anything about me?

[00:40:20]>> Ryan, what what do you think I've been doing all my life?

[00:40:23]>> Thought about >> Ryan. I was a Christian for 20 years, my man.

[00:40:27]>> I was in ministry for a decade. I went to Bible college and seminary. I know about Christianity. Like I I tried it out.

[00:40:35]>> No, I'm not church hurt, bro. I had a great time in church. I still go to church to visit my friends.

[00:40:43]Do you get like just out of curiosity, Ryan, >> do do any of your thoughts not come from like the Discovery Institute? Because like that your entire like sermon here, your entire premise here about where the universe comes from and now all this stuff about you're just church hurt and you just haven't prayed hard enough and believed hard. It is all the same script over and over that is just justifying your personal belief of your personal.

[00:41:08]It's it's not just Christianity. It is your personal interpretation of your personal version of your personal translation of your personal holy book.

[00:41:16]It is your specific flavor of Christianity that must logically follow from this like brainless Steven Meyer [ __ ] siloquy you gave us here. So like >> rough.

[00:41:27]>> I just I don't get it, man. It's really weird. And none of this grapples with anything that's like serious about this topic. None of this changes the fact that God is [ __ ] evil. None of this changes the fact that the God of the Bible is indefensible. None of this changes the fact that like your situation here of God saving us from whatever it is, congratulations on getting out of the hell problem. You you don't have that moral baggage, but you do have like just the weirdness aspect of that that God just wanted to kill his kid for nothing for whatever reason cuz he wanted us to do something to behave different whatever. And at the end of the day, your your big claim here is that when we die, we're going to meet this God and then we're going to just change somehow. We're going to meet the person who created us. If I meet God, I'm going to demand he answer for some [ __ ] He's going to have to beg me forgiveness. I'm going to hold him accountable. I'm going to ask him who the hell he thinks he is. I would never worship this God even if it existed. And I genuinely don't think that just from the the the the conversation we've had, I don't think that you're capable of thinking about that situation or why that might happen.

[00:42:35]>> Well, well, I I think I can understand where you're coming from. I think there's pain in the world. There's death in the world. And why would this even exist if uh God was all powerful? Why would he let it happen? I think that's your view.

[00:42:49]And I and I understand.

[00:42:52]Um, I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

[00:42:55]>> Um, >> not even why would he let bad things happen? Why would he be the way he is?

[00:43:02]>> Do you think that jealousy is a good thing? Do you think that somebody being really like viciously angrily jealous?

[00:43:08]Do you think that's a a good trait in somebody?

[00:43:13]>> I think for people, no. But God's not a person.

[00:43:17]>> Right. So, God gets special treatment as always. Actually, he's he's three persons according to >> Yeah, forgive me. Yeah. No, like Yeah, that's the thing. God gets special treatment. God's able God is able to do evil things and you call it good. God's able to be an evil person and you call it divine.

[00:43:35]>> You get you treat God differently because he's just so [ __ ] special.

[00:43:39]>> And not to mention the fact that even the whole premise here about nothing the universe not coming from from nothing, but you believe God did make the universe from nothing. God whipped up the universe ex nihilo and then created the laws of universe out of [ __ ] whole cloth. So you do believe something can come from nothing as long as God's the one doing it. And meanwhile if we sit here and neither of us said this but if we had said yeah the universe can make itself out of nothing. You would have said that's illogical. Even though the universe isn't a person either. You just have a special set of rules for your religion that defy everything about logic and morality that you hold for everything else in the entire world ever. And you don't see a problem with that. And we [ __ ] do. And that's why we're on this show and you're calling in because at the end of the day, we are consistent in logic and morality and you're not.

[00:44:33]>> Yeah. Um, you know, that that all may be true. Um, >> it is, >> but it it may it may be, it may not be. And I think if you're on the side of and this goes back to my Peter Beosian thing, >> if you can't outline the things that need to happen in order for you to actually believe, then um, >> I have no idea what you're addressing right now. I know exactly what it takes for me to believe.

[00:45:01]>> Mhm.

[00:45:02]>> I know not everyone knows. I know exactly what it would take for me. But the reality is none of that's relevant.

[00:45:08]Uh what's relevant is that God knows what it would take to convince any anybody and he just doesn't do it.

[00:45:15]>> Actually, I I take that back. But I'm curious to know yours.

[00:45:18]>> It doesn't do it. God's not a he.

[00:45:21]>> Listen, uh mine's easy to know. If the >> if every last uh prophecy in the Hebrew Bible came true, I'd believe in that God. I mean, he'd be a [ __ ] [ __ ] but I believe in it.

[00:45:35]Yeah, but you know there's uh >> but pretty much like 90% of them failed >> of 90% of what failed?

[00:45:45]>> Like 90% of the prophecies failed. Some of them people don't even recognize.

[00:45:49]Like there's prophecies in Isaiah about uh the return of the people after the Assyrian captivity. Those [ __ ] didn't return. They're gone. They're lost to history. Lost 10 tribes gone. Never coming back.

[00:46:00]But listen, Ryan, we've had you up here for about 45 minutes. And while it's been an interesting conversation, we do have other people waiting and I don't like some people have been waiting for for quite a while.

[00:46:11]>> So, I want to make sure we give everyone a chance to get into the conversation.

[00:46:14]But I do appreciate one thing. I do appreciate that you actually had premises for your argument, which to be honest, a lot of people don't have.

[00:46:22]>> So, at least you came with some premises. I I appreciate that.

[00:46:26]>> Yep.

[00:46:26]>> I appreciate you guys. Good talking to you guys. And I I know it's going in one ear and out the other, but God bless you guys.

[00:46:34]>> Uh yeah, that's I I consider that highly insulting. [ __ ] your god. Take care, Ryan.

[00:46:41]>> We just opened a line of the rainbow draft for you, Bren.

[00:46:44]>> Yeah. You You pray for me.