Is hell ever just? Debating with @Deconstruction_Zone as my cohost

追加: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]This is a clip from our show, The D Evangelicals on the Line, and you can get the full episode at the link below.

[00:00:07]Have fun.

[00:00:09]>> The show is called Evangelicals. We're approaching this from an exchristian point of view, meaning uh the I ex-Christians. We used to be evangelicals. We're not anymore. We're looking for maybe a good reason for why we're wrong. Maybe we we should have remained evangelicals. Maybe we should have remained some other form of Christianity. That's uh something that we're really interested in discussing.

[00:00:32]Uh but let's bring in Dylan from Minnesota who's a theist and doesn't say if they're a Christian or not, but says that they want to explain that God is love, which would lead me to believe that Dylan probably is a Christian because he's going to quote like First John 4. But welcome in Dylan. Uh you're on Evangelicals with Justin and Sarah.

[00:00:52]How are you doing?

[00:00:54]>> How's it going? Uh Sarah and Justin.

[00:00:56]>> Hi.

[00:01:00]Um, Dylan, I'm a >> Is it right to assume you're a Christian?

[00:01:05]>> Yeah, I'm a born again Christian.

[00:01:08]>> Okay. And you wanted to explain that God is love. I'll give you the floor.

[00:01:15]>> Jesus uh dies for our sins, past, present, and future. And not my word.

[00:01:19]The Bible actually says uh so I have the floor. Okay, I'll just like go at it. Um that not my word. The Bible says that you're perfect, that you're holy. that um that's not my word. What the Bible says is that you are perfected forever.

[00:01:31]That by uh by Jesus dying for our sins that no matter like who you are, where you're from, that Jesus accepts you for who you are. That Jesus says that you're perfect and you're righteous. Not because you have to do anything, but because uh uh Christ made you righteous.

[00:01:47]That you are perfected, that you're holy, and that you're righteous. That there's nothing you can do to separate yourself from the father. that no one can take you away from uh the Lord Jesus Christ like uh his word remains uh like that like like his word is a lamp to my feet and his word says that I'm perfected forever like you are perfected forever not because like >> do you believe that everyone goes to heaven then >> everybody is forgiven >> oh okay so you you are a universalist so everyone goes to heaven no hell >> well um to explain that um what I would say is that I wouldn't run into a church and say that Lord Jesus Christ failed, so everybody's still going to hell.

[00:02:30]>> Well, what about non-Christians?

[00:02:33]>> Yeah, Sarah's question is I thought was pretty simple. She's just Maybe I'm hearing her wrong. I thought Sarah was asking if everyone goes to heaven.

[00:02:42]>> What I am? Uh I'm a born again Christian. Um >> Nope. Nope. We're just asking in your worldview, do you think that everybody goes to heaven?

[00:02:55]Some people reject Jesus. Uh some people do reject Jesus.

[00:02:59]>> Okay. So when you say that like >> Jesus perfected everyone and we're all righteous and there's nothing we can do, it sounds like there is something we have to do to avoid hell.

[00:03:16]>> Um I I was holy but rejected Jesus, but now that I have Jesus, I am righteous.

[00:03:21]So, um, like what you're saying that like do we have to do anything? Like I I used to be unholy. I used to be unholy, but like I didn't have Jesus, but now that um Jesus perfected me, I I'm righteous, so I'm going to heaven. And to answer your question, like what do we have to do? Um, the Bible says that what we have to do is believe the gospel that uh that you are uh perfected forever.

[00:03:42]That I am perfected forever. That I am righteous. That and you're holy.

[00:03:46]>> Okay. So for me to go to heaven, I just have to believe you. Like I have to believe a claim is true. And if I can believe the right thing, then I get to go to heaven.

[00:03:58]>> Exactly. For me, for me um for me to believe that I'm perfected means I'm going to heaven because I believe Jesus uh made me holy.

[00:04:09]>> Okay. Um are you in control of what you believe?

[00:04:15]Um, I don't control my sins. And so, >> that's not what I asked. Are you in control of your beliefs?

[00:04:21]>> Uh, here here, let me explain. Um, so, uh, >> well, no, no, we don't need an explanation. We just need a yes or no to her question.

[00:04:28]>> Uh, no. No. Because the Bible says that sin is unbelief. Uh, no. Uh, because the Bible says sin is unbelief and I do not control my sin.

[00:04:39]>> Okay, that was two strange statements in a row. Um, so you don't control your sin. So when you sin, it is out of your control.

[00:04:50]>> Exactly. I do not control my sins. When I sin, it is out of my control.

[00:04:54]>> Why would God punish you for that then if it's completely out of your control?

[00:05:03]>> Um, the punishments that God would give me uh would be that I go to hell. that would >> So why would God punish you for that if sinning is not even under your control?

[00:05:15]>> Sinning sinning um like sinning is not in my control but God uh would punish me that I would go to hell.

[00:05:24]>> Right? So I'm asking you why why is that just?

[00:05:29]>> Um why is that just? Uh Jesus um Jesus is the truth. So um why is that >> No, no. I'm asking why is it okay for God to punish you for something you can't control?

[00:05:45]>> Oh. Oh, okay. So, uh why is it why is why would uh why is me not controlling me sinning? Uh like why would this god uh still send me to hell? Um because he can't he can't deny himself. In the same way that I would never sell my soul to Satan, this God, he can never deny who he is. And who he is is that um if that uh me like even though like I'm not controlling my myself sinning, this God um he's Jesus. So he's righteous and he can't not be righteous. So um me me sinning even though I'm not controlling myself sinning would still mean that this God would send me to hell because he can't he can't just like I can't soul my soul to Satan. I would never do that.

[00:06:28]um this God, he can't not be righteous, so he will still send me to hell. I >> I think sending someone to a punishment that they don't deserve would be unrighteous. I would think that that's a bad thing to do. God is doing a a bad thing to you.

[00:06:47]>> But I'm perfect. I'm perfect. I >> I mean, okay, a person in general, right? So why would God punish anyone for sinning if they can't control it?

[00:06:59]Uh uh say that again. I can't go.

[00:07:04]>> Why would God punish anyone for sin if we cannot control it? That seems very unjust and unrighteous.

[00:07:14]>> Okay, let me just flush this out. So, I can't control my sin. Um why would God still send me to hell? That seems unjust.

[00:07:21]Um I'm perfect. I'm going to heaven. when I ask you the question.

[00:07:31]>> Oh. Oh, okay. So, like generically generically um really really um to be honest um to be honest most people are going to hell.

[00:07:44]>> Still doesn't answer the question.

[00:07:47]>> Um okay. To answer your question, let me flush it out again. Um my >> Dylan, do you know what that question is?

[00:07:54]>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to flush it out right now. I'm gonna flesh it out. Uh me not controlling my sin. Uh this God sending me to hell. Why would that be just?

[00:08:04]Um to be honest, to be honest, most people uh most people are getting sent to hell. Uh but I'm not because I'm perfect.

[00:08:16]>> That's not the answer to the question.

[00:08:18]Let let me make it easier for you. If my son, let's say there's a rule at school and that there's no, you can't use foul language at school, right? And my son goes to school and he breaks those rules. Well, it might be the case that he might get detention, right? But now when you mix in a new factor, which is actually my son has a condition uh that causes him to sometimes say things involuntary, something like Tourette's, and something improper could come out of his mouth beyond his control. Do you think his teachers are still going to give him a detention?

[00:08:54]>> Um, okay. So, um, let me let me relate this to the Bible. So, would he still get >> Well, I'm going to need you to say yes or no.

[00:09:04]>> Uh, the Bible says who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit.

[00:09:06]>> I'm going to need you to say yes or no to my question.

[00:09:11]>> Yes. Yes. And, uh, the reason for that is because Yes. And the reason for that is because who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

[00:09:19]>> We're not talking about the Holy Spirit.

[00:09:20]We're talking about my son in a classroom.

[00:09:25]>> Uh yes. The answer um yes because um uh I'm talking about the Holy Spirit that if I say a word against the Holy Spirit, >> I'm talking about teachers.

[00:09:34]>> I'm talking about my son in a classroom.

[00:09:36]Would my son get a detention for using a foul word if in fact the teachers know that he has Tourette's? And to be clear, just having Tourette's doesn't mean you're going to utter a foul word. I just want to make that very clear. It's not a onetoone analogy of what the what the condition is, but it does happen.

[00:09:56]>> Oh, to his teachers, of course. Like to his teachers, um I'm talking about the Holy Spirit, but to his teachers, no.

[00:10:01]>> Well, I'm talking about a classroom. So, try to track. Okay. So, if my son's if my son's not going to get a detention because he uttered a word he shouldn't say beyond his own control and my teachers know that, why would my teachers not send him to detention?

[00:10:24]I see. I see exactly what you're saying.

[00:10:25]Um uh because uh generically speaking with this god um because >> um >> but I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about my child in a classroom surrounded by humans. Are you you going to track like you weren't answering Sarah's question. I thought it would dumb it down for you. You're not answering my questions. Now I don't even know what to do with you.

[00:10:49]>> Oh, okay. Um, so, uh, what I would say to that is because we're humans, but, um, like we're humans.

[00:10:56]>> I don't think the metaphor is working. I I don't think he's getting that this is a metaphor.

[00:11:00]>> No, he he has no idea what's happening.

[00:11:02]Is Sarah, you have any other questions for him to not answer?

[00:11:06]>> Is it right or wrong to punish someone for something they cannot control? Right or wrong?

[00:11:16]Um, God is right. So, um, whatever dodging the question, >> I should have got a dodge counter ready for this live stream.

[00:11:27]>> Uh, whatever whatever he uh chooses is is what was what is right.

[00:11:33]>> Why would we think that?

[00:11:36]I think that because um I believe Jesus Christ truly came in the flesh and that not only did he give us the law, the divine law, but he also died for um our sins. So not only did uh why I think that is that because Jesus showed himself not only >> but also just >> that's not actually connected to the topic we're talking about. The topic is just because God does something why would we assume that that thing is just or even good. So Sarah's bringing up this idea of justice, right? Justice basically means like you get what is fair. Like if you if you don't commit a crime, you don't get punished for it. If you commit a crime, you get punished for it. It's kind of what we think of when we say justice, right? So we're trying to flesh out what does it mean to behave in a just manner? Do we punish people in a just system for crimes that they had no control over?

[00:12:31]Uh, so you mean like flesh and blood?

[00:12:33]Like that I don't control my flesh and blood. So why should I be punished for sins that I can't control?

[00:12:38]>> It's weird that you can't just answer the question.

[00:12:41]>> So yes, why should you be punished for sins you cannot control?

[00:12:47]>> Why should I be punished for sins I cannot control?

[00:12:51]Um Jesus pro Jesus proved himself that like um that he took upon himself our sins and so um >> that that doesn't answer the question though like are you not understanding what we're asking or is it just too uncomfortable to directly answer the question?

[00:13:14]>> Uh I'm flesh I'm fleshing out what you're saying. Um, what you're saying is, uh, that I can't >> I've asked you this six times in a row now. It's been at least six times.

[00:13:24]>> Yeah. So, to be clear, we don't need you to flesh out our questions. We just need you to answer our questions before we can move forward. Dar, do you want to reiterate your question for the last time?

[00:13:37]>> Why should you be punished for something you cannot control?

[00:13:45]Uh because Jesus is righteous and he always will be. So even if I keep >> Okay, just >> nonsensical platitudes. He's never going to answer. Let me ask you a question. Is there anything God could command you to do or command somebody else to do that would be unrighteous?

[00:14:10]>> No.

[00:14:12]>> Okay. So Ezekiel was lying then when Ezekiel says that God gave the Israelites bad commands.

[00:14:21]>> Absolutely not. Oh wait, wait. Uh absolutely absolutely right. Yeah, of course he was right.

[00:14:26]>> Okay, so in Ezekiel 20 24 and 25 it says that God gave them commands that were bad. So now I'm just trying to figure out the answer to the question. Is it possible that God can give bad commands or bad instructions even?

[00:14:42]>> No. No. Like um like you sent an evil spirit. So if he gave >> I didn't say I didn't say evil spirits.

[00:14:49]>> Oh. Um >> I think you might need to read it to him. Have you ever read the book of Ezekiel?

[00:14:54]>> Please reread. Please reread.

[00:14:56]>> It definitely hasn't read it. So in Ezekiel 20 um there's a recounting of the Exodus narrative because in Exodus um chapter 22 I believe verse 29 it talks about um how like you're supposed to offer up the firstborn, the first thing that opens the womb. And it seems to be talking specifically about humans and animals. And Ezekiel is looking at this passage in chapter 20 and be like, "Hey, here's what's going on." And Ezekiel's uh reasoning is from God, of course, that it was to defile them. I'll read the verses. Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live.

[00:15:34]I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up of their firstborn in order that I might horrify them so that they might know that I am the Lord.

[00:15:42]So, is it not true then that God can utter and give bad commands to individuals or groups?

[00:15:52]>> Uh, it is true. Yeah, he sent evil spirits and he also sent an angel of death to kill the firstborn of Egypt. So yeah. Yeah. He sent evil spirit and he >> So if God utters bad commands and good commands, how can you determine if it's a good or a bad command?

[00:16:12]>> Uh by the standard by his standards which is that no matter what God is righteous and that no matter what God is righteous.

[00:16:19]>> Well that means that sacrificing your firstborn is righteous.

[00:16:24]You're forgetting who this God is. Your creator. Like >> I'm just demonstrating to you. If God told you to sacrifice your firstborn, would that be right or wrong?

[00:16:35]>> Like your creator told me to sacrifice my firstborn.

[00:16:39]>> Your creator told you to do.

[00:16:41]>> My creator.

[00:16:43]>> Yeah.

[00:16:43]>> My creator told me to do it. Of course I would.

[00:16:46]>> Okay. Just making sure. So if God said to sacrifice your your son, you would do it for God. And that would mean any other thing, right? If God told you to like pull off the toenails of your child, that would be the right thing to do.

[00:17:01]>> Uh here, um generically, I'll I'll answer like >> I'm just I'm just going to need I'm just going to need a yes or no. I'm just trying to figure out where your logic begins and ends. And the easiest way to do that, I promise we can do this in 30 seconds if you just answer yes or no. So if God told you to pull out the the toenails of your child, it would be right to do it.

[00:17:23]>> Yes, it would be right to do it. I would literally do anything for God except so myself for Satan. Uh, I love that.

[00:17:31]>> If God said, "I needed to pull out the toenails and then smash them into coasters." So, you can have table coasters of baby toenails. And then you take the babies that are left over and grind them up into uh baby clay paste and you can make uh some homemade clay baby vessels to utilize your coffee with and set it on your baby toenail poster.

[00:17:53]That that would be the right thing to do if God told you to do that.

[00:17:58]Um, not only that, but um, not only that, uh, yes, it would be right. And also, um, the Bible says that like that you are God's, that you are a god. Not that you're a god, but like like you're gods and you should be feeling the Holy Spirit.

[00:18:13]>> I'm going to remind you, Dylan, of what Justin just read to you. So in the Bible, God explicitly says that God gives bad commands.

[00:18:27]So God said to his people, I gave them a command and it was bad.

[00:18:34]>> My >> Did you understand that part?

[00:18:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, my creator, um, he's he's in you, too. Like, my creator, he's in you.

[00:18:49]>> No, you're you're ignoring what I just said. So, Justin gave you a pretty horrific example of something really awful and you're saying, "It doesn't matter what God commanded, I'll do it."

[00:19:01]But if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, in God's word, God says, "Hey, pay attention. Sometimes I, God, give bad commands."

[00:19:14]So, you shouldn't just blindly obey whatever God says according to the Bible.

[00:19:28]this God.

[00:19:29]Um, I'd do anything for him.

[00:19:32]>> Okay. Have you read the whole Bible?

[00:19:36]>> Yeah. 23 times front to back.

[00:19:38]>> Doubtful.

[00:19:41]>> You've read the Bible 23 times and you were not aware of this passage in Ezekiel.

[00:19:48]>> I don't really focus when I read the Bible.

[00:19:50]>> Yeah, it seems to be the case.

[00:19:54]Wait, what?

[00:19:56]>> All right. This guy's uh this guy's a troll. He can't be for real. We're just going to Maybe we should move on, eh?

[00:20:02]>> Okay.

[00:20:03]>> All right. Uh Dylan, come back when you're serious. Okay. Um if you are serious, then you're deeply disturbed and you need to contact Dr. Joe for some uh for some therapy. But um we do have maybe possibly um like a real not troll believer in the box, Don from Canada. Uh may maybe John from Canada will provide something of better substance for us. Uh we'll get John in here. Uh John is saying that Christianity has a certain utility in the communities it creates. Uh well, welcome into Deep Evangelicals. John, you're on with Justin and Sarah. How are you?

[00:20:43]>> Good. How's it going?

[00:20:45]>> Doing well, thank you for asking.

[00:20:47]>> Can you explain your your entry comment for us?

[00:20:52]Yeah, for sure. So, I think that in certain Christian communities, there's generally good outcomes for people that are part of them.

[00:21:04]>> Can you elaborate specific?

[00:21:07]>> Yeah. So, I think that there's a certain there's like accountability that comes from being part of a larger community.

[00:21:17]And I think having a set of myths such as like the Bible or it doesn't necessarily have to be the Bible, but I think because culturally the Bible and Christianity are a big part of our life that that's a fine thing to organize around and having a intergenerational community can have um like I said accountability and um it's just positive for people to be together, do activities together, do charity together, and I think the Christian community is a fine thing to organize around as far as that stuff goes. So, it sounds like what you're just describing is community. That community is a good thing for humans.

[00:22:03]Um, when we get into the specifics of Christianity, accountability is a is a tough one. Um, you know, this varies a lot from culture to culture and community to community.

[00:22:16]But within Christianity, there is a unfortunate tradition of protecting predators and protecting uh the people with power at the expense of those who are vulnerable. Um, so I think you're going to have to make a pretty tough case um that Christianity in particular is the best type of community.

[00:22:42]>> Yeah, that's fair. And I think there's absolutely atrocious things that that happen. And I think that those things desperately need to be reformed such as protecting predators, such as harm against LGBTQ people, such like various things, shunning, uh, like obviously terrible, but I think because it's so big in the culture that it's something that can be used for good. And I as far as the accountability goes, I think it's just because um if people are together in a system that they care about each other, I think it's just harder to do harm within that system.

[00:23:31]>> Well, again, the the power structures play a big role in this. Um and so again, it sounds like you are saying communities are good, but you're still not really making a strong case for Christianity in particular. You know, Christianity is a patriarchal religion and um it creates power structures with men at the top and so inherent in that power structure and this is absolutely a human thing. you know, we are going to the people in power want to hold on to their power and so different community structures would be better for accountability as compared to a hierarchical one like you'd find in Christianity. So why would Christianity be a better community than say a volunteerism community, you know, a a book club, a um even a different religion? like why is Christianity better than those other types of communities?

[00:24:35]>> I don't think it necessarily is. I think it's just because um like in the culture that I'm a part of, everybody knows the stories and I think it's it's just because we it's something that everybody knows about and can talk about and can be the basis for something good. And I think that um certain Christianities that are hierarchal are definite are evil. And I I think that it's worth reforming, but I think those things are definitely bad parts of Christianity. But I think they're still worth reforming just because it's such a prolifer.

[00:25:22]>> What types of Christianity are not hierarchical?

[00:25:28]Well, I think that I'm non-denominational. Um, and I I I would say that my community is not based on a rigid hierarchy.

[00:25:42]>> So, you can have women pastors, >> I think.

[00:25:46]Yes.

[00:25:48]>> That's actually rare for non-denominational. Okay. And do you have a pastor that preaches in front of everyone or is it communal?

[00:26:00]>> No, there's there's generally a pastor that preaches in front of everyone, but um it's it rotates.

[00:26:09]>> That's pretty unusual. Honestly, >> many there's many people that are part of the faith leadership.

[00:26:16]>> Sounds kind of like Quakerism kind of.

[00:26:19]There are a few Protestant denominations that will >> ordain women. Um, Quaker is one of them.

[00:26:25]Believe it or not, the Plymouth Brethren, which is notoriously, uh, like uber conservative and seclusive, um, actually will ordain women as well.

[00:26:35]It's kind of crazy. But, um, do you mind if I ask a question? I'm trying to figure out like, uh, because I think Sarah bring up a good point. Like, I don't see what Christianity here is bringing to the table that we wouldn't be able to get in any other community.

[00:26:48]So, for example, if I go and join the satanic temple um and I have a community of of friends at the satanic temple and we uh commune together, we hold each other accountable. We talk about uh ideas that impact our lives. We might even share uh personal lives where we help each other out with their with their u you know extracurricular activities or their children even. Um why would why would Christianity somehow be better than just taking part in the satanic temple?

[00:27:17]I think it's because if we can do our best to reform Christianity, that would have pretty big downstream effects that would be good for people generally.

[00:27:25]>> Wait, why >> not just abandon it?

[00:27:28]>> Yeah. Just get kick it to the curb.

[00:27:32]because I think of communities like mine that can be pretty positive and take some of the stories and not necessarily treat them as literal or like historically accurate, but it's something that binds us together >> just because there's so many people that are attached to the Christian myth, I think, and that's not going to go away anytime soon. I think it's worth trying to reform.

[00:27:57]>> It's going away pretty quick, actually.

[00:27:59]Do you suggest that we reform Islam or or do we just don't accept it?

[00:28:05]>> Uh, I think uh it's hard to say. I think it it's probably worth reform. I think there's certain Islamic communities that are a lot more liberal and it will probably take a reform from within to change a lot of the theocracies that do such terrible things and have terrible results for people. And I think the same can be said for Christianity.

[00:28:28]I think we're we might be a little bit further along in some cases.

[00:28:33]Um, but I think >> Do you think there's greater utility in believing true things?

[00:28:39]>> Christianity.

[00:28:40]>> Do you think there's greater utility in believing true things versus false things?

[00:28:46]>> Absolutely.

[00:28:47]>> Well, it seems like then the first point of order should be whether or not Christianity is true, not whether or not you think it has utility. Cuz in reality, any like religious system you can dream of has some kind of utility. I think whether or not it has a greater like overall utility is more important than whether or not it has these individual pieces of utility. Like yeah, like I agree like the the myth of Krampus, you know, the sidekick of Santa that will drag your children kicking and screaming into the woods if they misbehave. There's some utility to that.

[00:29:18]We get it. It's also not true and we stop believing it when we become adults.

[00:29:22]Is there utility in religion? Sure, there's definitely some utility in religion. I just don't know why we need specifically the Christian religion when it brings in all this baggage.

[00:29:33]Specifically, the baggage of having to justify slavery, having to justify the science wrong in the Bible, having to justify all the contradictions in the Bible, and then having to figure out why Jesus has to die for anybody. like the last caller we were on. Why does Jesus have to die for anybody if this is a god of of either justice or mercy? Seems like he could have figured all that stuff out without murdering his own son.

[00:29:56]These are all things that you have to bring on with the Christian worldview that really none of these things have good explanations for. It just seems easier if you want the benefits of the so-called religion. you just start from fresh and something new and different that's based on truth, based on science, but also prioritizes community and relationships and you know uh interacting positively with with society.

[00:30:21]>> Okay. Yeah, I agree with that and I definitely see your point. But I think when we treat the myths as myths, like it they're still I think humans like to organize around stories that we all share and and just like treating them as if they were Greek myths. Nobody takes them as historical accurate things, but they tell us a bit about the time they were written, the people, their certain lessons, and and they're interesting.

[00:30:50]And I think they survived for so long because people like to organize around that.

[00:30:55]>> So your proposition is not that we should believe Christianity is true.

[00:30:59]That in fact we should all agree that it's a myth, but we should just keep telling the myth just as like uh yeah as mythology as fairy tales as as something to get a lesson from. Is that right?

[00:31:17]>> Yes. And I think that because it's such a big part of so many people's lives that if we could do something to nudge Christianity into a more liberal, more human humanist way. It would be very good for the billions of people who are part of Christianity. And I think that like the um American evangelicalism is like hardcore Christianity like that is definitely a plague on society. But I think a lot of Christianity has moved a little bit more towards a more mythic Christianity. And I think that can be good especially for a um older people who aren't going to change their views necessarily but would still like to be part of the Christian community because it's a cherished belief. But I think the complaint you're going to get from both Sarah and I, and certainly I don't want to speak for Sarah, but I think we know each other well enough that we're probably on the same page here, which is you have to smuggle in all this other nonsense with Christianity because you can't really disconnect it from the Bible. That's like the source of the faith, right? And so if the if the primary text for the faith has horrific stuff in it, then you can't just sever that and say we're not going to do the Bible anymore, like well, what do you have after that?

[00:32:40]Right? So, like I understand that you're saying, "Listen, there's a couple good parts of Christianity. Can we just get rid of the bad parts and keep the good parts?" And in fact, I had a very slimmer discussion on this particular topic not that long ago. And I agree.

[00:32:53]Like, if you want to literally get rid of these bad parts and just keep the good parts, you have to actually get rid of them. Meaning, remove them from the Bible all together. Get rid of all of it. Erase it from history or just start out with something that makes better sense. and probably don't lie to our kids. Definitely don't tell them that this is true. Just tell them that, hey, here's some foundational mythologies that some of our ancestors used to believe. They're obviously not true. But then at that point, what are we doing?

[00:33:21]What kind of a charade are we putting together?

[00:33:23]>> Well, that's what I was going to say is like, John, what you're describing is the end of Christianity. Like, if everyone knows that these are just myths and that they're not true, it ceases to be Christianity.

[00:33:40]Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's very reasonable. I do disagree that we would have to eliminate all of the Bible or all of the abhorent parts of the Bible. I think that there are plenty of myths that have important things like like lots of Greek mythology, but is still important stories that people gather and talk about and discuss and is a important part of Western civilization. And I think the Bible and Christianity being viewed more like that would be positive.

[00:34:13]And I just don't think that Christianity is going away anytime soon. So I think reform is worthwhile.

[00:34:22]>> So again it sounds like actually what your goal is is to eliminate Christianity as a religion. So like it if we view the Bible the same way we view Greek mythology.

[00:34:37]We are not part of the Greek religion, right? Like I do not practice that religion. I know those stories but that is not my religion. And so if I view the Bible simply as myths, I am not a Christian. I am not part of the Christian religion. Um, so just to be clear, like that's what you're saying.

[00:34:58]Like if that's the direction you think we should go, you are advocating for the elimination of the of Christianity as a religion.

[00:35:08]>> Well, I think Christianity has changed a lot of its myths over time. Like a lot of Christianities don't take Genesis 1 and 2 as history. They take it as myth.

[00:35:19]And I think that's something that's changed within the last 500 years and more and more. And I think Christianity has just generally moved towards most people or many communities accepting that more and more of the Bible is not necessarily an attempt at perfect history. But those communities still exist. I don't I think when somebody stops believing in that Genesis 1 and 2 are historical, I don't think that stops them from being Christian >> because they still believe in Jesus >> about more of the Bible going that way.

[00:35:55]>> Yeah.

[00:35:56]>> Like I don't And that's the thing. If you want the Bible to become a myth, then Jesus didn't actually die. Jesus didn't actually exist.

[00:36:07]It's a myth. It didn't really happen.

[00:36:09]And if you stop believing that Jesus died on the cross, I don't know how you would call yourself a Christian.

[00:36:18]>> I in my community there's many agnostics that >> Right. So not Christian.

[00:36:23]>> We call ourselves Christian.

[00:36:25]>> Well, I think I think there's more and more Christians who especially outside of uh American evangelicalism are not 100% convinced in the historical claims of the Bible. I think that's becoming less important to some of those communities.

[00:36:42]>> So, if you stop believing the Bible, >> I think it's still okay to say it's Christianity, dude. Sorry.

[00:36:49]>> No, that's okay. Um, at some point, if you all stop believing the Bible is true and you stop believing that Jesus was real, you're going to lose the pull to meet together as a community. Like your Christian community is built on the fact that you all have the same core belief.

[00:37:10]You believe that God is real and that Jesus died and all the other stuff maybe is extra. But if you stop believing any of that, why do you need to meet every week to talk about it? Like again, if it all truly becomes myth, Christianity disappears.

[00:37:29]>> I think it changes. I think it evolves.

[00:37:32]Okay.

[00:37:33]>> into something that isn't Christianity.

[00:37:36]But I mean, first of all, Sarah's got a great point here. I think if you >> we might not recognize as Christianity, but I think I think you a 15th century person wouldn't recognize what we do as Christianity. I think it evolves.

[00:37:48]>> That may or may not be true. But I do want to follow up on Sarah's point, which is um what prevents it from going backwards. So we saw in the uh what we might classify as you know typical you know Muslim countries um in the 60s and 70s a a large shift towards science a large shift towards modernization and then in 78 and 79 we had the Islamic revolution and they would they like they took uh 20 steps forward and a 100 steps back. Um, and the reason why they can do that is because they can always go back to this book and their tradition and say, "Actually, this is the right way to do it. You liberals out here not doing it right, we're going to go back." And then they could set up that authoritarian control. What controls do we have in place that would prevent Christianity from taking those 100 steps back all the way back to women are concubines and we can have slaves and you're going to hell if you don't believe exactly what I believe. What prevents that from happening?

[00:38:51]I think probably that we don't present it as historical truth, but I also think that that is an excellent point that I haven't considered and that I do see signs of that happening in a lot of Christianity. So that I yeah, I think that's an excellent point that uh yeah, it's I think it it would be hard to put in that kind of safeguard. That's true, >> right? Because at the end of the day, they're always going to go back to something that acts as a source of authority. And that source of authority is going to be the book and church tradition. And church tradition and the book kind of agree with each other. Not always. Uh but the reality is if that's your source of authority in the religion, then there's nothing that's ever going to prevent you from going back to some authoritarian model um that is based on the book and in church history. So that's why Sarah and I were like, listen, if there's benefits to maybe having religious practices of some kind, I don't know if we're actually against that. In fact, on my live stream, I talk about this quite a bit, even though I debate as an atheist. I think there's a number of religions out there that are rather benign, and I could care less if you belong to that religion. But then there are dangerous religions like Christianity where I'm thinking like, hey, actually, we don't need this religion. whatever benefits we're getting from this religion, we can actually just get that elsewhere and leave all that baggage behind. And it's probably the maybe the last thing I would say about that. Sarah, do you have anything to add?

[00:40:20]>> No, that about sums it up. Yeah, I agree.

[00:40:24]>> Well, okay.

[00:40:25]>> Hey, John. One, sorry.

[00:40:28]>> Go ahead.

[00:40:30]>> Okay. I think one thing is that so many people just do have a such cherished relationship with the myths that they like getting together to talk about those things even if it's not necessarily in a way that pertains to what actually happens historically and I think that is probably something that's not going to go away and >> well do the to Sarah's point >> going to get together anyway Do the Greeks do that? Because, you know, there's actually a portion of the Greeks that still uh practice their traditional religion, but they they don't get together and do the worship or anything like that. They might have clubs or groups where they read the mythology together, but they're not traditionally a religion. Traditionally, a real religion is having a true belief and a system of belief around a god that you think is actually real. Right? So, once you've turned it into a book club, it's just really not even a religion anymore. And that means you're kind you're in agreement with Sarah and I.

[00:41:32]You're saying actually no, we shouldn't be part of this religion. She would we should just call it all fake and join the book club. And if that's the case, I would do it. If someone if we started teaching, hey, Christianity is not true.

[00:41:41]This book is a myth, but you can join the book club and have a really cool study. I'd be down. I'd join.

[00:41:46]>> We do that.

[00:41:48]>> We literally do that every week.

[00:41:50]>> Close to what my denomination is.

[00:41:54]but just a little bit more community centric where you do weddings together, you do certain events together that >> and and and charity work that >> Mhm.

[00:42:07]>> I think is important.

[00:42:08]>> Sure. But and you can get all that um without bringing the religion along with it. You can like I said, you can join the Satanic Temple. You can make a book club.

[00:42:19]Well, the difficult thing >> often, especially where I am, >> like Justin and I have the unique experience of being part of one of those communities and then we stop believing and the vast majority of the time you essentially get kicked out of those communities or not in a mean way, but like I did not feel comfortable continuing to go to church when the whole purpose of church was was praising God and hearing a sermon and this is a God I don't believe in and a sermon I don't agree with. And so I I think you're downplaying the importance of the fact that you still have a shared belief. Like I would guess that the majority of the people who are attending your church community still have some kind of belief that God is real and that when they read the Bible, they're reading about a real God.

[00:43:23]Um like I I would be surprised if the majority of your church thinks it's all myth. Um and that common belief is still what holds you together.

[00:43:35]>> Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think that that's probably true of of most of them.

[00:43:41]>> Yeah. So, the idea of of saying that people have these cherished beliefs and so if we can just sort of transform those religious beliefs into myth is is wishful thinking because we've been through that, you know, we've been through the process of believing something is true and realizing that it's not true. And it is painful. Um, and and I I don't also don't want to downplay the difficulty of that, but I don't think you can just like sort of nicely transition into believing it's myth wi without the turmoil that comes with it.

[00:44:19]>> I agree with that. I I grew up fundamentalist and it was extremely painful to my deconstruction.

[00:44:29]But I I just think that the community that I'm a part of now is so much different and I think it is something that's positive and I guess it might not be good on a grand scale. I just think my personal experience is that Christianity can be good despite especially fundamentalist evangelicals having a pretty terrible impact on society I think.

[00:44:58]>> Yeah.

[00:45:00]Um, well, listen, John, you've been pleasant to talk to. I can >> let you talk to somebody more.

[00:45:04]>> No, you're okay. You You've been super pleasant to talk to. Um, and uh we really appreciate you sharing with us.

[00:45:10]If you don't mind, what denomination do you belong to?

[00:45:15]>> So, I grew up uh actually I would rather not mention it. It's a um second great awakening fundamentalist religion. It we just call ourselves Christian. It's a non-denominational group in my small town.

[00:45:30]>> Okay, fair enough. Uh well, listen buddy, we appreciate you coming up. We got We're going to try to cycle through some of the guests that we've got waiting for us and we really appreciate your viewpoint and uh come by and see us again.

[00:45:43]>> Awesome. Thanks a lot.

[00:45:45]>> Cheers.

[00:45:47]>> I could be wrong, Sarah.

[00:45:48]>> But yeah, he's so nice. I'm thinking like maybe he'll be an atheist soon.

[00:45:53]I mean, I his situation sounds incredibly unique. Um, and if this really is a group where they rotate preachers and um, you know, my definition of non-denominational is so different from what he's experiencing. I mean, it I I'm impressed like it I I understand why his particular community means so much to him. I get that, >> right? Yeah. 100%. Um, well, let's do this. We've got a couple people waiting to get in. Gio has been waiting for about 25 minutes, so we're going to grab Gio first. Uh, James, we see you in the queue as well. We're going to grab you after Gio. So, we're going to try to get to everybody. We're not going to leave anyone behind here. We've got lots of time left in the show. The number to call in is I'm sorry, 720-6192288.

[00:46:44]Again, it's 720-619-2288.

[00:46:48]And Sarah and I are discussing topics uh that are related to Christianity, leaving the faith, joining the faith.

[00:46:55]And I think the question that's pertinent to what we're doing here tonight is, hey, is there a good reason why we would be or even want to be part of this faith? We'd love to hear about it. But with that, let me grab Gio and we'll get our next discussion rolling.

[00:47:09]Gio is calling all the way from Florida and is a theist, I presume a Christian, and is saying that God is love and love is a basic promoter of life. Uh, well, welcome in, Gio. You're on Divangelicals with Sarah and Justin. How are you >> doing? Amazing. How are you guys?

[00:47:26]>> Doing well. Thanks for asking.

[00:47:29]>> All right. Awesome. Awesome.

[00:47:32]Um, but yeah, I'm I'm calling because uh I mean I've been been like what one or two weeks that I discovered you guys >> and uh I would just uh like to share my unique perspective because um I'm somebody that has really tested uh the Bible a lot. I've been through a lot.

[00:47:51]I've gone in. I've gone out. I've been an atheist. I've believed in God. And one one of the things that uh I do admire about you guys is uh that you guys follow what's mentioned in second Timothy uh 3:es 1 and five. So I do want to commend you where it says in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. And on verse 5 it says for people will have an appearance of godliness and prove false to his power and from these turn away. And I think you guys have that.

[00:48:21]>> Yeah you got it. are >> the most passive aggressive thing I've heard all day.

[00:48:27]>> Yeah, that's pretty wild.

[00:48:29]Imagine how insecure you have to be to get up on a live stream and accuse atheists of being evil when we just literally don't agree with you.

[00:48:37]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And uh like I mentioned, like I mean >> maybe you can answer the question that we have which is hey why would we want to believe in your religion or what's a good reason to even believe?

[00:48:50]>> Yeah. So, um I I really believe that religion wasn't even supposed to be a thing in the beginning. Uh because it didn't exist when Adam and Eve uh existed. And in the end, Babylon the Great is going to burn in the fire according to Revelation. Symbolically, uh speaking.

[00:49:05]>> Yeah. But um >> I'm not asking you what you believe. I'm asking what's a good reason that would justify a belief in this whatever you want to call it, whether it's a religion or relationship. Is there a good reason for us to even think that it's true?

[00:49:21]Yes. Yes. Um I think it's true >> is uh well like I said uh because God is love, right? Um and personally >> I'm sorry. Why do you believe that God is love and why do you even believe God exists?

[00:49:37]>> Yeah. Um, well, I believe that God is love. Uh, and I know the millions and billions of things that you guys have like in contradiction to that. Um, that are probably crossing your mind as I'm >> seems like you shouldn't have said it then.

[00:49:52]>> I'm sorry.

[00:49:54]>> Well, if you already know that we have contradictions in mind for this statement, maybe you shouldn't have said it because now we're just going to go and give you those contradictions, right?

[00:50:04]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm completely open to to any uh you know accusations. But um before before that I do want to uh point out however that um it is because of love that uh people come out of traumas psychologically speaking. Uh people come out of um PTSDs, anxieties. It is understanding love and wisdom helps people come >> I'm sorry I'm not going to let you say that on here. Um, people don't heal from PTSD because of love. Um, that is a medical condition that requires medical intervention, not love. Um, I'm glad that you have love and I wish everyone to experience it, but we're not going to we're not going to do that on here.

[00:50:51]>> Yeah. It also actually didn't answer Sarah's question. Did you hear what she asked you?

[00:50:59]>> Um, can you repeat it, please?

[00:51:03]Why do you believe God is love? And why do you even believe God exists?

[00:51:11]>> God is love. Uh why I believe uh God is love is because uh creation and I believe that God exists is because we find intelligence in life.

[00:51:21]>> Wait, what about creation tells you that God is love?

[00:51:27]um well our natural upbringing what it should actually be until corruption entered but >> um putting um all the corruption to the side how um if since we are made in God's image we're made in his image spiritually which is love. So what about creation like looking around right you said creation so like the natural world like what about that tells you that God is love.

[00:51:58]>> Yeah. For example um you know when you observe two healthy parents you know taking care of their kid they feel nothing but love. And it is God that put had put that love. We have that same DNA to take care of that child and for that child to love their parents. We only grow in love.

[00:52:18]>> Okay. That doesn't have anything to do with God though. So like when you see two parents who mistreat their child, does that tell you that God is bad?

[00:52:29]>> Um when they mistreat their child, there's a lack of understanding and uh lack of development of that uh perfect love that we're >> Okay. So let me just make sure I understand here then. So when people do good things, you're going to give God credit, but when people do bad things, it's the people's fault.

[00:52:54]>> Oh, when people uh do good things, it's uh it's people get the credit as well that God is glorified through that. what when people do bad people are also accused of that you know and >> no I I don't know um so when what I'm trying to understand are you saying that I can look at people's behavior and understand the character of God >> uh to an extent uh reason I say to an extent is because sin entered into the world so that behavior is kind of like blurred So it sounds like the answer is no. That I can't just look at people's behavior and know the character of God. It sounds more like you've you've decided what the character of God is and when you see what your expectations reflected in people, you'll say, "Oh, that's God."

[00:53:50]But when you see people acting differently, you'll say, "Oh, no, no, that's not God."

[00:53:57]>> Um, oh, that's an interesting uh viewpoint.

[00:54:02]Um but no like it's just uh when I look at people right I'm not saying oh that's God or that's not God. I'm just saying that our natural inclination although it's imperfect there are times where it does show a reflection of what we were meant to be but since there is corruption it is blurred. So we >> So the question was the question was how do you know God is love? And so it sounds like looking at human behavior is not a good way to know that God is love.

[00:54:38]So how else do you know that God is love?

[00:54:42]>> How else do I know that God is love? All right. So there's creation. There's uh >> what does creation have to do with love?

[00:54:51]If God was evil, would he not also create just so he can create havoc? Like if I was an evil entity, I was like, shoot, I need someone to be evil against. I might create some uh humans and then go around torturing them and lighting them on fire if they don't obey me perfectly.

[00:55:12]>> Yeah, I understand your accusation. Um, but the the fact that you know that there's this corruption thing, it it it really does cuz I've noticed also what what you guys do is you guys point a lot of fingers to God, but never to Satan.

[00:55:32]>> Well, no, we're you're the one who made a claim about the character of God. So, all we're trying to figure out is how you arrived at that claim. So this should be pretty easy like how do you know that God is love? And so at first you said it was you can see it in creation and the example you gave was human behavior but then we decided that well no human behavior on its own is not a good indicator of the character of God. And so now I'm asking you okay what else? Like >> human behavior we're scratching that off the list. So what else do you have? How else did you decide that God is good or God is love?

[00:56:11]Yeah. Um the intention of the wisdom that is found in the Bible, although it's not all completely um understood, I do believe that some of the wisdom, the intention was to help guide us into what >> um for example, uh let me say, love your neighbor as yourself. Um >> what do we need the Bible for? that that that type of rule already existed in ancient Egypt and in Mesopotamia. The Bible didn't deliver that. That's not new.

[00:56:48]>> The Bible didn't Well, what do you mean?

[00:56:51]Just because it was found first in uh ancient Egypt.

[00:56:55]>> Well, one thing is like these >> these platitudes like love your neighbor as yourself, they existed elsewhere. The Bible didn't invent that nonsense.

[00:57:05]However, commandment >> even well it doesn't matter if it's doesn't matter if it's a commandment or not. What I'm saying is you don't actually need the Bible for that. Like you could arrive at that conclusion without a single holy book ever.

[00:57:19]>> People don't though. That's a issue worldwide.

[00:57:22]>> No, they do.

[00:57:24]That's why it exists in almost in almost every culture. Even like in non-religious cultures like in Buddhism, they still have these types of tenants because you don't need a god, you definitely don't need the Christian god to arrive at the conclusion that loving your neighbor like it's yourself, treating your neighbor the way you want to be treated would be a good principle.

[00:57:42]In fact, it just happens to be kind of a principle that almost all societies have recognized throughout time. Um, treat people the way you want to be treated so that you don't get treated the way you don't want to be treated. This is in fact even something that Senica said, the Greek stoic talked about this type of philosophy. It's not even rational to hate your enemies. Uh because by hating your enemies, you're actually creating more animosity and ill will, which can eventually come back on you. So like this idea that you should treat people the way that you would actually like to be treated is pretty old. Like we didn't need the Bible for this. And I sorry to pile on, but the last thing I would say is like it's also kind of irrelevant to me because the same book that says to love your neighbor as yourself also literally says only six chapters later that you can own slaves.

[00:58:33]>> In regards to the Old Testament, right?

[00:58:36]>> In regard to the Bible, the So the book in Leviticus chapter 19, that's where it says to love your neighbor as yourself.

[00:58:44]That book, Leviticus, just a couple chapters later, says that you can own slaves. Which means whatever the Bible meant by loving your neighbor as yourself, it obviously didn't mean that you can't do things like own slaves. It didn't mean that you can't kidnap women and children in war. It didn't mean that you can't slaughter babies in war. It didn't mean uh that you can't have concubines, essentially sex slaves. It didn't mean any of those things because all of those commandments were compatible with the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

[00:59:18]>> Okay. Okay. Valid. Valid. But uh one of the things however um I've noticed that like instead of uh like something that has helped me to kind of like understand more I mean I'm I'm going to go ahead and take into consideration this uh slave topic. Maybe we could uh make that a next topic. Um but one of the things is uh Gassi chapter 3 verse 6 um it says there is a time to keep and a time to throw away a time to search and and to give up as loss you know and instead of like coming to conclusions that God is evil like I I would really if he does say that he is the God of love I would give him a benefit of a doubt although like my own own understanding would tell me otherwise. Um, >> why would we give him the benefit of the doubt?

[01:00:06]>> With with great reason. I I know I know where you're coming from. Uh, with great reason. You guys are, you know, um, the reason we g uh are giving him the benefit of a doubt is because he is the only one, if he does exist, that if the devil tries to continue to ruin the world through corruption, he's the only one that could undo all the uh, all the damage.

[01:00:27]>> No, no, no, no. He No, he he designed it to be that way. Satan wouldn't exist if he didn't design Satan and put Satan in charge. So, whatever Satan's doing here is God's God's doing it. He wanted it to happen. So, you're not gonna He kind of kind of passed the buck to Satan.

[01:00:43]>> No, he did. Yeah.

[01:00:44]>> No.

[01:00:44]>> So, um when the angels sinned, it says in Jude and Peter, when the angels sinned, meaning when they came down in Genesis 6 and consummated with the women, he locked them up in chains and they're down in the abyss waiting judgment. He could have done that with Satan. when Satan acted up, he could have said, "Yep, you go right down there with those other guys." And he could have locked that dude up. He didn't do that. What he actually did was unbound him. Well, actually was never bound, but literally removed any bounds, sent him down to earth, and said, "You're in charge of the earth now." In fact, Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:4 says that he's the God of this world. So, like, what a weird thing. Like, we've got this horrible entity that did a horrible thing. God's like, "Actually, now that you think about it, you're in charge."

[01:01:26]Like God's responsible for that one.

[01:01:29]>> Yeah. You know how You know why though?

[01:01:32]>> Because >> you're going to tell me. I'm sure.

[01:01:35]>> Yeah. Because if mankind can choose to be faithful to God just as Jesus was and the faith of like death and Satan, um that proves that this kind of like disproves his claim in the beginning that people can't b u be faithful to God through the his temptations.

[01:01:52]>> Where's that claim? because that it literally says the opposite in the Hebrew Bible >> where >> again I'll give you the verse it's in Deuteronomy but I'm asking you to give me the verse for the thing you said that existed which I know doesn't >> the thing that I said existed >> yeah you said it proves that we can't whatever it was that proves like you have to have God had to let Satan have power so that God could prove himself right when he said that humans couldn't keep all his laws. Is that what you were claiming?

[01:02:31]>> That's what I'm looking for is the verse where you said God said that humans couldn't keep his laws.

[01:02:38]>> Oh, okay. That was like indirectly in Genesis uh chapter 3.

[01:02:42]>> Sure. Which verse? Because uh there's nothing about his laws in Deuteronomy or in Genesis 3. In fact, it just says that humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

[01:02:53]Oh yeah. No. Um well, what I was trying to say, I guess, um I don't know if we're if we're on the same page. Um but what I'm saying is that Satan made a claim in the beginning, >> right, >> where God was basically a liar.

[01:03:09]>> He was >> and he and he tried to uh tell all the angels and like he proved it kind of like with humans.

[01:03:17]>> That's not in Genesis. What are you quoting right now?

[01:03:21]>> Yeah. All right. So, I'm like breaking it down. Genesis chapter 3. Because right now, Satan lies >> I have Genesis 3 open. Show me the part where Satan did anything with the angels. In fact, Satan doesn't even make an appearance. I'm just granting you that in your worldview, you believe that Satan is the serpent. But there's nothing about angels in here that are being drugged by Satan.

[01:03:40]>> Absolutely not. They were definitely watching from heaven as he was seducing Eve. So, that told everybody.

[01:03:46]>> Where is that in the Bible?

[01:03:47]>> In that record.

[01:03:48]>> Where is that in the Bible? It doesn't have to say it in the Bible cuz it the >> So you're just adding it to the Bible.

[01:03:53]It doesn't say anything about the angels watching Satan deceive Eve. You had to add that part cuz you somehow you needed it there.

[01:04:04]>> How else would the angel rebel?

[01:04:07]>> Uh the angels didn't need Satan to rebel. The angels according to you have free will. Satan has nothing to do with whether or not we have free will. Like if Satan disappeared tomorrow, he didn't exist at all. Human beings would still have the propensity to sin and they would still sin. Is that not true?

[01:04:26]>> Well, maybe. Like, I mean, as far as like things, I mean, I don't I don't see Satan to to tell you yes, that's true or not.

[01:04:35]>> Do you need Satan? Do you need Satan to cause you to sin, or do you have the propensity to do that on your own? And I'm going to give you the answer. By the way, it's in the book of James. And James does not agree with whatever you're about to say.

[01:04:49]>> Yeah. Because I mean, if we're left unprepared to um deal with our sin, we'll probably comm uh continue committing sin until we know how to uh have our uh inner impulses under control.

[01:05:01]>> Sure. Have you read the book of James before?

[01:05:04]>> Um let me see, like three months ago. I I don't remember everything, but yeah, the book of James. Yeah.

[01:05:13]So in the book of James, it says like literally the exact opposite of what you're saying. It says, "Blessed is the one who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. No one when tempted should say that I'm being tempted by God. For God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one." But one is tempted by one's own desires, being lured and enticed by it.

[01:05:41]And when desire has conceived, it engenders sin. And sin when it's fully grown, gives birth to death. So James is saying that our propensity to sin comes from the inside. We don't need Satan for any of that nonsense. Which means whatever you think God needed Satan for, it's not good. It doesn't do anything good or beneficial. So why would God cast Satan down here upon us to prowl around like a roaring lion seeking to devour people? Why would he do that?

[01:06:10]>> Yeah. Because at the very beginning, Adam and Eve chose Satan to rule over them. It started >> No, they didn't.

[01:06:16]>> That that's not in there at all. No, he didn't. Show me that verse.

[01:06:21]>> The verse.

[01:06:21]>> Show me the verse where Adam and Eve said, "I'd prefer Satan to rule over us."

[01:06:27]>> You got to use your common sense. It's not going to say >> I have. Yeah, I have. It's not in there.

[01:06:34]>> Okay. obviously is again like there's got to be like common sense. If they're rebelling against God, their actions are speaking.

[01:06:42]>> They don't they don't know that they're even doing anything bad. Remember, they haven't eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which means they have no knowledge of good and evil, which means their perceived disobedience. They had no knowledge that their disobedience was bad. They have no way to contextualize it until they eat from that tree. The tree was obviously a setup. God obviously wanted them to eat from the tree.

[01:07:06]>> No. Did God not tell them do not eat from the fruit of the tree?

[01:07:11]>> God said don't do it. But the problem is they don't know that disobedience is bad yet. Right? So if if I have like a one-year-old and I put his favorite candy in front of him and it just happens to be I don't know that there's like something toxic in the candy and I say, "Listen, don't eat the candy.

[01:07:31]something bad will happen and my one-year-old eats the candy. Well, I'm responsible for my one-year-old because my one-year-old doesn't know what the decisions it's making, how that's going to end up. It doesn't understand anything. It doesn't even know that disobedience is wrong yet because it's one years old. So, Adam and Eve, they're they don't know anything. They have no knowledge of good or evil, which means the fact that they disobeyed is meaningless. It's a charade. It's theater. God just needed to set them up so that he can blame them for something to create the mess that we've got down here. So, they didn't choose Satan. They don't even know who Satan is. They never heard of the guy. A snake approached them in the garden and said, "Actually, God didn't actually, you know, he's not actually telling you the truth when he says that you're going to uh die that very day. In fact, you won't die that very day. You'll become like God knowing good and evil. Which is then confirmed in verse 22, Genesis 3:22. God himself to see the humans have become like one of us knowing good and evil. Which means Satan was right. Eating the fruit made them uh aware of good and evil which they didn't have prior. So whatever God did to Adam and Eve, um it would have been also considered unjust. They had no idea that what they were doing was even bad.

[01:08:51]How do you know that when God told Adam and Eve, he didn't get the full understanding of it?

[01:08:57]>> Full understanding of what?

[01:08:59]>> Yeah.

[01:09:00]>> And we're not asking about whether or not he died. We're asking about whether or not the serpent told the truth. The serpent said that your eyes will be open and you'll be like God, knowing good and evil. And that's exactly what happened.

[01:09:11]So, as far as I can tell, Satan was trying to arm them with information and God was pretending like he wanted them to not have information.

[01:09:21]>> Okay, so in the first verse, like look, look how Satan is manipulating Eve right here. He says, "Did God really say that you must not >> from and how' the serpent get there?"

[01:09:34]>> The garden.

[01:09:35]>> How did the serpent get there?

[01:09:38]cuz he was in charge of he was supposed to um protect >> God put him there. So God put the serpent in the garden knowing that the serpent was going to trick them.

[01:09:49]>> He did not do he didn't know that he was going to rebel.

[01:09:53]>> God doesn't know the future.

[01:09:54]>> I didn't know >> like I mean after it developed in his heart he probably >> does God know the future?

[01:10:02]If God knows the future, to an extent.

[01:10:04]Yeah.

[01:10:04]>> To an extent is an interesting phrase there.

[01:10:07]>> For us to be loyal, he created us for us to be loyal to him.

[01:10:11]>> I think it's actually really important that you answer the question honestly.

[01:10:14]Like I don't I don't want a spectrum like God knows some things. I need you to answer the question very specifically. Does God know all things?

[01:10:25]>> If God knows all things, as far as the details in that, I really don't know how far God knows. However, I do know for a fact that he did create us. Um, >> what does first John say?

[01:10:38]>> I'm sorry.

[01:10:39]>> What does First John say about God knowing all things?

[01:10:44]>> First John, >> first John 2 is going to be the chapter, I believe. Actually, 1 John 3. Let me grab it. And it it just explicitly says that God knows all things. Um, so let me There we go. Uh, verse 20. Whenever our hearts condemn us, uh, for God is greater than our hearts and he knows everything. So, either he knows everything or he doesn't.

[01:11:13]>> All right, babe. They're talking about the hearts. Okay.

[01:11:16]>> But does he know everything?

[01:11:17]>> Right there. If he knows everything.

[01:11:20]>> Does he know everything?

[01:11:24]>> Maybe. Yeah, to an extent. Like I said, I don't know the details as like I mean I don't know how far he's willing to look, right? Because he did give us free will and he does like I do understand that he does have like a certain respect to um our free will. So it's like >> he doesn't really control he's not going to control you and say, "Oh, I knew you were going to do that." Like you get what? Do you think that the is the Bible the perfect word of God or is it do you think are you more in the camp of like hey this was written by men and it's like mostly what God wants or do you think it's >> not perfect word of God actually >> the perfect word of God. So in the perfect word of God when it says God knows everything then either the book is wrong or God does know everything.

[01:12:19]If you're referring to uh 1 John um verse 20, it's talking about regarding whatever our hearts may condemn us in >> because God is greater than our hearts all >> and he knows all things >> of you know how far we're choosing to be corrupt or how far we're wanting to reach out to God. He knows.

[01:12:41]>> Yeah. But does he know but does he know all things? So the text says that specifically he knows what's in your heart because he knows all things. The reason why he knows this secret stuff in your heart is because he has omniscience. That's what that means.

[01:12:58]>> Omniscience.

[01:13:07]Now, you could just say that it's a contradiction because uh and to the point that Sarah, I think, was touching on, the Bible can't always be true because it contains a number of contradictions, which might be why you don't think God knows all things because there's clearly passages in the Bible where he doesn't know all things. What that means then is that First John is just demonstrabably false when it says that God does know all things. If he doesn't know all things, then to me, it seems like a bumbling idiot. I have no reason to follow a god who's a bumbling idiot that accidentally set Satan up in the garden. Didn't know what he was going to do. And then when he did it was like, golly G, I'm going to put you in charge now. In fact, I the horror that you created, I I hate it so much. I'm just going to make sure you're in charge of this thing for I don't know the next 7,000 years. That guy sounds like a buffoon. I don't want no part of that.

[01:13:57]>> No, I completely um uh I'll go ahead and look into that as uh like as to how far it got because I really don't know the details.

[01:14:05]um in regards to that topic. So, I'll definitely uh write a note down here.

[01:14:09]I'll go ahead and look it up and uh if I find it out, I'll definitely uh would love to touch base on that because uh that that is kind of cool.

[01:14:16]>> Well, and also what does God say? What is said? Was it Psalm 137 about David?

[01:14:22]Is it 137 or 139? I believe it's going to be might be 139. Uh, nevertheless, I'll grab it here in a second where he says, uh, you knew me in my womb and you had, uh, or you knit me in the womb.

[01:14:36]>> 139.

[01:14:37]>> 139. There we go. I knew Sarah would would know this one. So, David says, "It was you who formed my inward parts. You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works." And then in another psalm, he literally says that all my days have been created for me before yet one even existed.

[01:15:04]So that's going to be Oh, it's also Psalm 139. Psalm 139 is a real hit piece on free will here. Verse 16. Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. in your book were written all the days that were formed for me when none of them uh as yet existed. So it seems like God knows everything you're going to do before you do it and literally wrote it for you. He actually wrote in a book this is what he's going to do. And you know I'm not suggesting that you have to believe in predestination. What I am suggesting is that clearly in the Bible God knows all the stuff you're going to do.

[01:15:39]>> Wait th I'm reading a King James version. These did see my substance yet being unperfect and thy book all my members were written which in continuence were fashioned and when and see there was none of them but I was talking about um basically the the person of the heart >> the person of the heart what what is a person in a heart persons and hearts are not the same thing let me say what what version are you reading I'm reading the NRSV updated edition, an actual good translation, and it says, uh, "Your eyes beheld my unformed substance in your book were written. All the days that were formed for me when none of them, uh, had, uh, as yet existed."

[01:16:31]>> All right, let me see. Psalm >> 139. Is there a reason why you're using the KJV?

[01:16:43]>> It's just like uh the most basic. I mean, I don't really like the King James version, but it's just like a more general uh thing. Like it's the most uh common one, I guess.

[01:16:53]>> He's a sadist. He likes punishment.

[01:16:56]>> I'm sorry.

[01:16:57]>> Nothing. I was just making it funny.

[01:16:59]Don't worry. Go ahead.

[01:17:02]>> No, but I use all Bibles. Uh, I use um New English Translations, American Standard Version, New Living Transl. I I I'll use all of them. Mhm.

[01:17:15]>> Um but yeah, I'll definitely look into that as well because um the predestined thing that that that is uh but because I remember in King Cyrus in Babylon, God did know 200 years before that he was going to uh take Babylon because Babylon had sinned too greatly.

[01:17:35]>> Well, so that's what I was saying.

[01:17:37]Sorry, sir. What were you going to say?

[01:17:38]>> Oh, no. Um, if you think prophecy happens at all, you have to assume that God knows the future. If if God doesn't know the future, he can't prophesy about it. So, it actually seems central to some of the tenants of Christianity that God knows the future.

[01:17:55]>> No. Yeah. Exactly. I think prophecy is a big thing. Uh what what I do think it's loving of of them is that he tells us before it happens so that we could prepare ourselves >> which is weird that um like they never seem to come true which to me I think if God was loving he would say things that are always true rather than things that are false. So I want to bring it down we we've been we do in this 30 minutes we kind of did some meandering I want to help corral this back to your original point which is that God is love and love is a promoter of life. We haven't heard a good reason to believe yet that God is love. Somehow we got onto Satan. I think Satan makes God even worse. Um I can show you some instances. Well, let me ask you a question. Um I don't know if you have children. I've got a child. Do you think there's anything ever that you're you could do as a human being where that the appropriate punishment is that you have to cannibalize your own child?

[01:18:50]>> Cannibalize your own child.

[01:18:53]>> No. No. Of course not.

[01:18:55]>> Okay. Well, the problem we have in the Hebrew Bible is there's a number of occasions where God is literally so mad with the uh with the his people, the Israelites, that he is literally going to bring an army on them with the intention and brags that he's going to cause them to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Specifically, it says this in Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, and in Jeremiah 19:9. And in Jeremiah, it literally says, "I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters."

[01:19:30]And uh all shall eat the flesh of their neighbors in the siege, in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will afflict them. And God literally says, "I'm causing this to happen. I'm bringing this rage and vengeance upon them." Which to me is crazy. If how could a loving God find it to be a good thing to cannibalize children?

[01:19:53]>> Yeah. Um what I really believe if he's saying like he's causing it is because he's simply allowing Satan to do such a thing because the consequence of sin >> um it's got to be um there are consequences >> to he says he's causing it though, right?

[01:20:09]So you can say that Satan was the instrument that he used but that's kind of irrelevant. Like if I said, "Listen, um, I'm causing, I don't know, the the raccoon that gets in my trash at night to be executed, and then I pay somebody to execute the raccoon." It's irrelevant. I'm the one causing it to happen. Right? So, I'm not interested in who the henchman is. I'm interested in who's the cause. And God specifically says in this passage, I will cause this to happen.

[01:20:38]>> Yeah.

[01:20:40]I mean just read the rest read the rest of the passage. I don't have all the pretty cool look into that. Uh but I do understand one thing is that um >> like I I I really believe that God did take like some certain blame to kind of like not mention the devil too much and for God to have a certain fear so that they could um obey his word. So for the preservations of life because if you if he's always pointing um >> wait >> why do we need to be obedient to preserve our lives.

[01:21:16]>> I'm sorry >> like every scenario you keep describing if we put it in human terms it's horrible. If I said um I'm gracious because um I don't execute my own child for its disobedience that's not graciousness that it would be horrific that you would even threaten that.

[01:21:35]>> Yeah. So God allowing us to live just because, you know, he's gracious, he should have murdered us is kind of preposterous.

[01:21:43]>> Yeah. No, and like I said, um like because I've come to the conclusion that if for example Job, right, um Job thought and Naomi too in the book of Ruth, uh Job and Naomi thought that God had done like these horrible things.

[01:22:04]>> But those books do show do shed light as to like who how far the devil is really going to go and how far God allows it.

[01:22:13]Have you not read Job? God sets sets Job up. He allows Satan to do horrible things to Job for no other reason than to win a bet. And God even participates.

[01:22:25]It says that fire, the fire of God came down from heaven and, you know, killed some of the servants, which means not only did Satan do it, God allowed his own fire to be utilized to do it or he caused it himself. So like God saying, "Hey, what about my servant Job down here? Have you conseded him? go him up. But you're just making God look even worse. Like every time you keep bringing up a Bible passage, it makes it worse.

[01:22:49]>> No, because the Jesus suffered the same thing.

[01:22:52]>> And what he didn't >> he did crucified. So >> it's not the same thing as what Job went through. Not the same.

[01:23:01]>> Well, well, obviously not the exact same thing. What I'm trying to say is that they suffer heavy things >> that So if I harm a child, but then my other child gets harmed some other way, it's all okay. Like how is Jesus suffering make it okay for God to harm Job? Like those are not related.

[01:23:28]>> How does Jes say that one more time? How does Jesus suffering >> allow God? You were saying that it's okay that God hurt Job so badly because Jesus suffered too, but that doesn't make it okay.

[01:23:46]>> No, no, I'm not saying that that it's okay. I'm just saying that like integrity replies to uh Satan's accusations to leave us alone in peace.

[01:23:56]>> What?

[01:23:58]God didn't reply to Satan to leave us alone.

[01:24:02]Satan said, "Hey, can I mess with your buddy?" And God was like, "Yeah, go for it."

[01:24:09]>> Well, yeah, because exactly since the beginning of time, Adam and Eve after they rebelled, the devil has made constant accusations.

[01:24:18]>> They didn't rebel.

[01:24:20]We already went over this. They didn't rebel. They didn't know right from wrong. You You can't rebel if you don't know right from wrong yet.

[01:24:29]They didn't know right from wrong because God told them.

[01:24:31]>> They did not know right from wrong because they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil yet. God telling you something is meaningless if you don't have knowledge of good and evil. He didn't tell them that it was evil to disobey. He literally only said that if you do this thing, this other thing will happen. That's all he said. He didn't say you're wrong if you disobey me. He didn't say it's evil if you disobey me.

[01:24:52]And he didn't even say that it's right to uh to to be obedient to me. He he didn't say any of those things. He just said, "If you eat of this tree, here's what's going to happen." And then they had no knowledge of whether or not disobeying that was actually evil. So I I don't I still have no idea how you keep going back to the empty well of Genesis when they clearly didn't rebel against anything cuz they had no knowledge of the thing.

[01:25:23]reason I go back to the Genesis is um because like for example if God is love right let's say all right you said you had a child if you tell your child because you love him so much hey don't touch the oven you know something's going to happen you know and you actually demonstrate the harm and I really believe that you know God is like a a complete >> what >> what do you mean demonstrate the harm Would you let your child touch a hot stove?

[01:25:54]>> No. No. No. No. That's not what I'm saying. No. What does demonstrate the harm mean?

[01:26:00]>> I'm concerned that this guy might have children one day.

[01:26:02]>> You said you warn your child and demonstrate the harm? What do you mean by demonstrate the harm?

[01:26:11]>> What? Yeah. For example, like mindfulness, right? We know.

[01:26:15]>> No, we're still on the hot stove. Don't go to another metaphor. Stick with the one.

[01:26:20]>> Okay. Yeah, exactly. So, the hot stove.

[01:26:23]Okay. You could say, "Hey, look, >> this burns." You could like burn a paper and then this hurts. You know, think something like that.

[01:26:31]>> Are you Are you hurting yourself or hurting your child?

[01:26:36]>> I mean, you you could use uh I don't know, anything like that.

[01:26:41]You show them.

[01:26:42]>> The point here is a piece of paper. a piece of paper if you put it in the oven, it's going to burn fire and destroy it.

[01:26:49]>> Yeah. Your child's not gonna That's >> If you have a toddler >> and that toddler ends up getting burned on the stove, that's your fault.

[01:27:01]>> Mhm.

[01:27:02]>> It's not the toddler's fault. That's your fault.

[01:27:04]>> CPS going to be calling you, buddy.

[01:27:07]>> Yeah, I bet.

[01:27:09]>> No, obviously I would tell him to watch out. However, let's say like he starts going up and he understands the dangers of a fire.

[01:27:19]>> No, he's a toddler. That's that's the whole point of this metaphor is like you can tell the kid not to touch the stove, but if you leave your stove hot and unattended when you have a child and that child gets burned, it's the parents fault.

[01:27:35]So, exactly the same way, if you are a god and you put a tree in the garden and you say, "Don't eat of that tree." But the humans you created do not know right from wrong. If they get tricked, it's your fault, the God's fault, not the humans.

[01:27:56]>> Then how would God, if he didn't have the tree, demonstrate um people's free will to choose God? Oh, easy. Sorry, Sarah. Looks like you had an answer. Go ahead.

[01:28:07]>> I think we both are gonna have a pretty easy response to this one, but go for it.

[01:28:12]>> Um, open the door. Let them walk away.

[01:28:16]>> Yeah, you got to hurt no one. You got to You don't have to kill them. You don't have to punish them.

[01:28:22]Like, if if my child decides tomorrow, actually, I don't want to chill with this old guy with graying facial hair.

[01:28:28]I'm not going to be like, "Okay, well, now I've got to put Satan over top of you to torment you the rest of your life and then potentially burn you in flames forever." If you have true free will, you don't get punished for your actions.

[01:28:40]You might have some natural consequences like like you said, I might touch a fire and experience the natural consequence of the flame, but that's different than a punishment. God dispensed various punishments for even the most minor pieces of disagreement with him.

[01:28:56]literally just eating a fruit. God's like, "Nope, I will mess up all women forever because you're going to have the most painful child birth." So much so that like the way he did it, like a high percentage of babies die giving birth.

[01:29:08]And not as high, but way too high percentage of women died trying to give birth. What a preposterous thing to do to punish all humanity for the crimes of one person, and that person didn't even know right from wrong yet. This god is a barbarian.

[01:29:24]I'm I'm really trying to like pinpoint uh this idea where you got that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong.

[01:29:32]>> The Bible >> says it >> it says it explicitly that they did not know and once they ate it says now they know right from wrong.

[01:29:44]They you know was a temporal clause right >> before they knew bad.

[01:29:49]>> They didn't before they they definitely knew good. They didn't know bad. They definitely good. Yes. Because God >> the text literally says the humans have become like one of us knowing good and evil. Which means prior to that they didn't know good or evil. That's why the tree is called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It provides you with that knowledge which they had not obtained yet. So like listen, I I don't think words are very difficult. I think this passage is quite clear in what it's teaching. I don't know why you hate God's word so much that you have to call it a liar.

[01:30:26]>> Let me see. Genesis 3. Okay.

[01:30:29]>> Do you think Justin has the passage incorrect?

[01:30:31]>> See if I could um like explain it in a better uh way. Um and and and I'm glad we're talking like uh based on this because the first John 4:1 I use that as law is to test the inspired statements to see if um it is true or not. So um that's why I'm open to disagreements.

[01:30:49]I'm open to questions and uh I'm open to these types of conversations because I do like to further push this um belief system I have into something more precise, you know. So, um I do want to thank you guys for that. Um but yeah, as far as um Genesis, like when if God is love, you're going to pass that down to the creation you're going to create. So, you're going to know something. They weren't completely numb. If you're evil as well, >> Adam and Evil, >> if you're evil, if you're evil, then you're going to pass that down, too.

[01:31:35]Like, you haven't established that God is good yet, >> right? So, you're you're kind of putting the cart before the horse here. So, the problem you have here is you're assuming that Adam and Eve had knowledge of good when the text says that they didn't have knowledge of good. That it just clearly says that they don't have that knowledge. In fact, they don't have knowledge of bad either. That's why it says that they were naked and unashamed.

[01:31:56]They don't even know that being naked is shameful yet.

[01:32:00]By the way, it's not. Just to be very clear here, atheists. Um, live your life.

[01:32:08]No, you're good. You're good. Um, but yeah, um, the no knowledge of like if they didn't know they were naked, it's because they had no sin. They had no corruption. Like, >> no, they had no knowledge. No, they had no knowledge of good and evil yet.

[01:32:21]That's why they have no shame.

[01:32:24]>> No knowledge of good. Okay. Can I ask you something?

[01:32:28]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:32:29]>> Did you read the Bible first and then become a Christian? Or did you hear about this God from someone, become a Christian, and then start reading the Bible?

[01:32:45]>> Um, let me say like I mean I've been through a series of events really. I grew up Catholic. I think Catholic is full of full of it.

[01:32:56]>> Predators.

[01:32:58]>> I'm sorry.

[01:33:00]>> Nothing. I was just helping. Go ahead.

[01:33:04]>> Um and then I didn't know what to believe and then you know I I started like looking more deeper into things. Uh I did have like various uh perspectives of everything uh which did help me come to like certain conclusions. you know, something's gonna make some >> like various perspectives. Does that mean like >> you're reading books by theologians that like you're going to different churches and hearing pastors speak? Like what does that mean?

[01:33:34]>> Uh yeah, like speaking to different people. Uh yeah, I've been to definitely been to different churches and stuff. Um asking questions, see who knows more, where can I find answers and things of that nature. It's been a a series of uh events. I've been through a lot. And then you know like I kind of like separated myself also from Christianity for some time. Um so I do have like that that side of me too. However uh one thing I could never really figure out is uh you know if there's really no God or anything.

[01:34:10]There's never been it's never been proven that creation can be created without a creator.

[01:34:18]So there's no creation though. It sounds to me like just talking to you that you have these ideas of who God is >> and the idea you have of of God doesn't always match what's in the Bible. And so it feels like you have these this is God and then you go to the Bible and you have to kind of make it fit because what it says in the Bible is not actually lining up with what your idea of God is.

[01:34:47]And so that's why I asked like how you came about your beliefs.

[01:34:51]>> Yeah.

[01:34:52]>> Yeah. So uh c can you pinpoint like uh where you think uh it doesn't align with what uh and I'll go ahead.

[01:35:00]>> So this whole discussion that we've had like you are presenting as if this is a loving God and every time Justin has pointed out scripture that says here's God doing something cruel. You you don't really have an answer for it.

[01:35:15]Which is fine. I don't mean that as a criticism. I just >> to me that says that you figured out the character of God through some other means than the Bible.

[01:35:27]>> And so it's like you knew who God was and then you read the Bible. And so now when you come across these passages that don't line up with your belief in God, you you have to to do some sort of gymnastics to make them fit.

[01:35:43]>> Yeah. Um well, one of the the things is uh we we touched uh Psalm 139. Uh Psalm 139 11 and 12 talks about um that darkness and light is the same as uh is the same to God, right? Um but the darkness that we live in is the lack of knowledge that we have of God. And that is where Satan continues to try to cloud people and confuse people to kind of like mess that right. That's the reason there's so many religions. That's why it >> that that doesn't address what I was saying though.

[01:36:23]>> That it it addresses uh with what you were saying because um like I really believe that God has mastered good and bad and how the bad >> I'm just talking about how you arrived at your belief. So I'm I'm not asking you what you believe. I I was asking about how you arrived at your beliefs.

[01:36:43]And when you state God is this, it >> it seems to go against what is written in the Bible. So I'm wondering if maybe actually you your knowledge of God isn't coming from the Bible. It's coming from somewhere else.

[01:37:03]>> It could be. Uh, I mean, like I said, I've been through it's been many years.

[01:37:08]Let me see. I started taking this seriously when I was like 19. I'm 29 now, so it's been like a whole decade.

[01:37:14]Um, so it's been a very series of developments of of, you know, uh, ups and downs and stuff like that that have helped construct um, this understanding. Uh, one of my personal experiences was uh, when I was like personally, I guess I'm going to say something personal right here, but um, not going to go into much detail, but I was really in the in in in dirt.

[01:37:39]Like I I was in the worst thing and uh, like I said, I had given up Christianity.

[01:37:44]>> I started uh, living immoral lifestyle and the immoral lifestyle wasn't really helping me. It would it actually started to destroy me and the guilt wasn't helping either. But one thing I did notice was that God's mercy helped me pull out through all of that >> or you were able to do it.

[01:38:03]>> Like you you just did that on your own through the power of positivity and good vibes, right? Like the placebo effect and is like the most powerful brain effect we can have for improving our lives sometimes is just believing that you can do it through one means or another. And you did. You believed that you can do it cuz you had God on your side and then you did it. I mean, huge congratulations to you. You deserve all the credit for getting yourself out of that rut. I have no reason to believe that that God was there getting you out of the rut. But, uh, Gio, listen, you've been really fun to talk to, but it's it's going on 50 minutes. We've got four more people at least that we need to get through here.

[01:38:40]>> And so, I'm I'm going to going to have to move on.

[01:38:44]>> But, thank you for coming by. I mean, you were you were polite and respectful with us, and we appreciate that. Come back. We'll work through some more conversational topics next time we hear from you and we'll we'll see where you're at maybe in a couple weeks.

[01:38:59]>> Sounds good. Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

[01:39:02]>> All right. Have a good night.