The life of Sylvia Rivera

[00:00:00]I will not prolong put up with this [ __ ] I have been beaten. I HAVE HAD MY NOSE BROKEN. I HAVE BEEN THROWN IN JAIL.

[00:00:11]I HAVE LOST MY JOB. I HAVE LOST MY APARTMENT FOR GAY LIBERATION. And you all TREAT ME THIS WAY. WHAT THE [ __ ] WRONG WITH YOU ALL? Think about that.

[00:00:24]>> She's so amazing. Um, so that speech was from the Christopher Street Liberation Day rally held in Washington Square Park, New York City on June 24th at 1973.

[00:00:39]Sylvia Rivera, a transgender woman of color, then aged only 22, took to the stage amid the heckling and booze of her white cisgender peers in New York's queer community. There have been attempts to stop her from speaking on behalf of the less gentile, less socially acceptable members of the LGBTQ community, the homeless and incarcerated queers. The early days of queer liberation like today was marked by a clash between the assimilationist queers who sought mainstream acceptance through respectability politics and appealing to heterosexual society and the queers who could not or would not ever fit into the socially acceptable mold. those who sought liberation for all, most especially those whose queerness forced them into the fringes of polite society.

[00:01:28]By the end of Sylvia's impassion speech, the heckling melted into cheers.

[00:01:34]That was the kind of woman Sylvia Rivera was. Angry, impolite, confident, passionate, and utterly inspiring. Even her haters couldn't stay mad for long.

[00:01:48]Welcome back to Respect the Dead, the podcast where sometimes we do Mhm.

[00:01:56]>> surprise that everybody celebrated your demise. And now worms are eating your eyes.

[00:02:08]So don't you worry your rotten head as you sleep in your sen bed. It's time to respect the dead.

[00:02:22]It's time to respect the dead.

[00:02:30]It's time to respect the dead.

[00:02:38]>> Hi, I'm Hoots, everybody.

[00:02:40]>> I'm Kayn >> and this is Respect the Dead. So, >> always has been. This is that's that's our podcast in case you in case you were lost.

[00:02:48]>> We normally don't.

[00:02:50]>> Yeah.

[00:02:50]>> But today we do.

[00:02:51]>> Normally a little ironic the title. Um which which can be really confusing sometimes.

[00:02:56]>> Ignore the theme song that played >> where we said everyone was glad you died.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. I mean I'm pretty sure some people were glad Sylvia Rivera died.

[00:03:05]>> That's fair.

[00:03:06]>> But not the kind of people that we like.

[00:03:07]The kind of people that we like on our show.

[00:03:09]>> Yeah. Mhm. Um, so what all do you know about Sylvia Rivera?

[00:03:14]>> Just like her life story.

[00:03:16]>> So we're going to be going over that very soon. That's good. This will be like an open conversation. Well, it's just I mean it's because I did um drop the tea >> a video documentary with Sarah from the leftist cooks and it's on my YouTube channel and we get into the history of the um assimilationist movement versus the queer liberationist movement. Um and Sylvia's like >> a huge part of it. That was a huge part of what she fought for.

[00:03:47]>> We get into if you're interested in this episode, you'd likely be interested in that video essay. It's uh we get into >> We should link it in the in the description.

[00:03:55]>> Probably like a little card right now too as well.

[00:03:57]>> Yeah, but over there above your head.

[00:04:00]>> Yeah, it would be. Mhm. I can see it right there. I can picture it right now.

[00:04:05]>> Um >> but I also have a terrible memory because of all the drugs I'm always on.

[00:04:10]So, we're doing a little refresh, but also like as things come up, if there's something you want to interject with and be like, "Oh, I remember from respect the I remember Sarah saying I just said respect the tea."

[00:04:22]>> I mean, that could have been the name of the video.

[00:04:23]>> I remember from Respect the Tea. Uh, and I did um first thing just because I just sent you a little picture of Sylvia just looking cute. Like you see her looking like an activist so often, but like I was happy to find a picture where she just looks a little cute. She's like posing by a fountain, >> right? I love this.

[00:04:44]>> Yeah, she's like so many so many like famous pictures of her are either like cut from that Christopher Street speech or like she's like holding a protest sign and those are like very powerful, but like also it's like nice to see a picture of her where she's just like >> looks like she's having a good time.

[00:05:00]>> She's [ __ ] vibing.

[00:05:01]>> Yeah. she's not having to yell at anybody. So, Sylvia Rivera was born July 2nd, 1951 in New York City, and she lived until 2002 uh when she was age 50, which is not old at all, but like in terms of like um queer people who were active in the ' 60s and '7s. Like, when I first saw it, I was like, "Oh my god, go off."

[00:05:22]>> It's the worst thing because all the people in the goody episodes live to like 50 or something, and everyone in the baddy episodes live to like 140. 50 is like good for the goodie episodes.

[00:05:32]Like most of the goodie episodes, it's like and then at the age of 28 they died.

[00:05:37]>> They died of natural causes being too good.

[00:05:40]>> So, um yeah, like my initial instinct was like, "Oh my god, she lives so long.

[00:05:45]What a success story." And that's grim.

[00:05:47]>> And then you have to like think about it and be like, >> I was like, "Oh, actually like yeah, when I know other people like straight people who die at 50, I'm like, "Oh no, that's so sad. What caused it?

[00:05:57]>> What caused it? Privilege.

[00:05:59]>> Yeah, privilege.

[00:06:00]>> I actually ODed on privilege.

[00:06:03]>> Oh my god. You got to watch that.

[00:06:05]Everything in moderation.

[00:06:08]>> That's why I always take my privilege in moderation. Yeah.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah.

[00:06:14]>> Uh so Sylvia's early life was also very grim and sad. Her father, a man named Jose Rivera, disappeared quite soon after she was born. And when she was three, >> like left >> like Yeah. Just like disappeared from the record. I assume left, but like also maybe not.

[00:06:35]>> Well, I was just like, you know, sometimes you're like out on a boat with your father >> and then uh like a light shines upon you and he's gone.

[00:06:41]>> Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[00:06:43]>> Yeah.

[00:06:44]>> Did that happen to you? Is that based on a true story?

[00:06:46]>> Nope.

[00:06:46]>> Okay.

[00:06:47]>> Well, I I've heard it, but it's not based on a true story.

[00:06:51]>> No. Yeah. You're >> No abductions ever are.

[00:06:55]Uh, so when she was three, Sylvia's mother died by suicide and actually tried to get Sylvia to go with her.

[00:07:03]>> Um, from what I read, she like mixed rat poison and milk.

[00:07:08]>> It's very much like um that TV show um uh The Haunting of Hill House where she and then she was like, "Would you also like a little milk maybe?" And luckily, >> no did not um >> I've actually been toying with veganism, >> so I'm good.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah. Three-year-old, >> actually.

[00:07:33]I've just been thinking about, you know, the um the animal agriculture industry and how destructive it is and like, mom, you can drink your rat milk.

[00:07:41]>> Yeah. Sylvia then went on to live with her maternal grandmother until about the age of 10 when she started putting on makeup and presenting more affeminite.

[00:07:54]Um and her grandmother disapproved of this. Uh and her grandmother was also very abusive in her disapproval. Uh so at 10 years old she runs away. Um >> that's insane.

[00:08:08]>> Yeah. at 10 years old.

[00:08:10]>> That is some train car child.

[00:08:12]>> Yeah. Except not as charming because she's living on the street and also working as a sex worker >> at 10.

[00:08:19]>> Yeah. That is not a that is not a fun early childhood adventure where you where you ride the rails with your best chums. And >> no, it's not like it's not a >> it's not a YA book or a a young reader book.

[00:08:35]Uh, it's it's actually really really disgusting and sad.

[00:08:39]>> I would like I'm very much against the death penalty, but like I don't know if it's the death penalty if I do it. Like that's >> I think it's just murder.

[00:08:49]>> Yeah, that's just regular everyday murder. And that's okay.

[00:08:53]>> Yeah, >> both of us looking at YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

[00:08:58]>> The respect the dead sign of approval.

[00:09:00]>> Yep. anybody hiring a 10-year-old to do sex work >> should >> I will splatter your brains against a wall >> around and actually I think that that is like that is like one of the um one of like the the only like nonpartisan uh issues left in the world is like everybody's like if you're >> well >> well >> 10 is 10 is a fine line for some of them they're like well >> but given everything with the Epstein files I'm >> I Although like a bunch of Republicans are also like a bunch of like MAGA people are also like we need to >> Well, I guess a bunch doesn't really speak to like how many of them, >> right?

[00:09:39]>> But not enough. We got we got a comment on the uh Epstein video being like, "Remember when um remember when the right was against pedophilia?" And I was like, "No."

[00:09:52]They're like, "Okay, that's fair." I remember when they said they were >> only when like Tom Hanks is doing it in their weird little fantasies.

[00:09:58]>> Yeah. They're like, >> and to be fair, it is also only when it's like a child who's like three as opposed to a child who's 14. And then they're like, "Well, she's fair game."

[00:10:07]>> Yeah. Once the umbilical cord's gone.

[00:10:10]>> Mhm.

[00:10:10]>> Mhm. So, sometime after this, she's taken in by a group of drag queens and trans women, like rescued off of the street. Um, including Marcia P. Johnson, who would um who would have also only been like a teenager by this. I think around this time Marca was like 17 >> was very young when she started doing her like community outreach and activist stuff. It's wild how young all of these people were.

[00:10:37]>> All of them all of them were super young. So yeah, around the like I think she was like six or seven years older than Sylvia. So around this time she would have been about 17 um when she brought in Sylvia. Um, which is so also just so so tragic in its own way. Like this other child doing survival sex work is sees a much younger child doing survival sex work and it's like we've got to take her in off the street.

[00:11:03]>> I'm not anti-ex work if we want to get into the sex work.

[00:11:06]>> I'm anti- children doing sex work because it's not sex work. Um however even if you are anti-ex work um the uh the focus of your eye should not be the people doing survival sex work.

[00:11:20]>> Yeah.

[00:11:20]>> It should be the people buying 10year-olds >> the situations that put people in the situation where they need to survive.

[00:11:32]>> Yeah.

[00:11:33]>> I mean what the [ __ ] else was a 10-year-old living on the street going to do? Get a job? like that's not that's not how anything worked or still works.

[00:11:44]Like >> um but allegedly um it is this group of uh like drag queens and um and trans women who gave Sylvia her name.

[00:11:54]>> She was coming up with a name and one of them suggested uh according to Sylvia, it was actually an old butch slur lesbian uh and a drag queen who chose the name. And I also think that that's a beautiful example of how lesbians have always supported trans women since the beginning of the movement.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah.

[00:12:13]>> Despite, you know, um misinformation to >> Oh, by the way, >> the the assimilationists have always done what they're going to do, but it's always been a fairly small group. Um, in the actual queer rights movement, there's a lot of assimilationists now who are running a muck, but like the the needle moved.

[00:12:39]>> I wrote a thread about this once that like ended up >> Dan Savage put it on his blog, but it was just my entire thread.

[00:12:47]>> Weird.

[00:12:47]>> Well, like his blog with ads, which a little funny.

[00:12:51]>> Dan, uh, reach out, baby. Pay up. I think you owe like a little bit. And it was just about like, do you know who doesn't normalize gay people? Not visible gay people.

[00:13:04]>> Yeah.

[00:13:04]>> The thing that normalizes gay people, the thing that makes straight people okay with straight acting gay people was not straight acting gay people. It was people like me that straight people could point to and be like, "Those are the kind I don't like. The ones that are in your face about it. I and people like me are the kind of people that those straight acting gay people can point to and be like, well, I'm not like them."

[00:13:24]So, like, you know, I'm just a regular person. Like, no needle has ever been moved by assimilation.

[00:13:30]>> No.

[00:13:30]>> Like, >> no rights have ever have ever been won by being like, listen, we don't need anything.

[00:13:37]>> Like, >> we're just like you.

[00:13:40]>> Except for those freaks among us who aren't, and we don't own them.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah. That has nothing to do with me.

[00:13:45]>> It's like, well, okay. I've always kind of resented the way uh the modern anti-trans movement um uses lesbians as a cudgel against trans people when like even to this day statistically lesbians are a group that support trans rights more than any other group >> in every single poll even on Turf Island.

[00:14:07]>> Yeah. We're talking about like we're talking about the pe the communities that were taking in trans youths off the street from the beginning.

[00:14:15]>> And some of the most notable lesbians who are against this are Julie Bindle >> who is >> one not a lesbian and two decreasingly notable.

[00:14:27]>> She's the one lesbian where it's okay to be like she's not a real one because she's not.

[00:14:31]>> She's the only one that isn't >> because she's a political lesbian by which she means she does not like men.

[00:14:36]>> Yeah. Stop saying everybody needs to stop saying Chapel Ron is lying and start saying Julie Bindle is lying.

[00:14:42]>> Okay, but they'll never go after Julie Bindle because guess what?

[00:14:45]>> They don't know who she is.

[00:14:46]>> Who Julie Bindle is >> true.

[00:14:49]>> Sylvia and Marca remained lifelong friends and were both instrumental to the budding gay liberation movement of the late 60s and 70s. And I got a couple of pictures of Sylvia and Marca together that I'm going to send. They look so [ __ ] cool. There's so many photos uh that I saw in like while working on Drop the Tea. Much fun.

[00:15:10]>> They look cool as hell.

[00:15:12]>> We are going to get comments on this one from people saying that Sylvia and Marca were not trans. Um I have a video addressing that >> and I I mean we'll touch on um their relationship with gender a little bit more later on and and also sexual orientation a little bit more later on.

[00:15:31]Um, I feel like especially in this like early period where they didn't even have the vocabulary to really talk about >> transsexual.

[00:15:41]>> Yeah.

[00:15:41]>> How the [ __ ] do you learn that?

[00:15:44]>> Like their relationship to both of those concepts is a little bit more um like amorphous and fluid.

[00:15:52]>> Yeah.

[00:15:53]>> Um because they don't >> Well, so terms were a little more interchangeable like like you could say you're gay.

[00:15:58]>> Yeah. and say that you're transsexual.

[00:16:01]you can say you're a gay man and say that you're transexual because back then the language hadn't evolved to the point where like >> they a lot of time like no they weren't saying like I was assigned male at birth like that terminology just hadn't arisen yet and assuming when you look back with no context of it like all the queer historians I know support this the only people who don't are like people who have never actually looked into it they might say I was around at the time and they didn't mean that. But like people like Fred Sergeant weren't hanging out.

[00:16:34]>> No.

[00:16:34]>> With Sylvia and Marsha.

[00:16:35]>> He was busy arresting them.

[00:16:37]>> Yeah. Booing. Like um I love this police line. I'll put it up. This photo with the police line. Like I want this on my [ __ ] wall. This is adorable.

[00:16:46]>> Marca with her little umbrella.

[00:16:47]>> She's so cute. And her little shoes.

[00:16:50]>> She looks like the queen.

[00:16:52]>> She Yeah, >> I love I love them both. I actually I want this blown up.

[00:17:02]>> Yeah.

[00:17:02]>> Like just >> like a full size poster >> over there. Like the same size as the like Trixie Mattel one or something.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah. It's so cute. I love it.

[00:17:11]>> And I It's It's like so joyful, too.

[00:17:13]>> It's so cute.

[00:17:15]>> Okay, let's take a little breaky break.

[00:17:17]Um and when we come back, >> this truck is going to stop backing up.

[00:17:22]>> Or will it?

[00:17:24]>> Maybe never. Let's get an ad for trucks.

[00:17:27]Yeah, >> that's one thing that gay people really love. Trucks.

[00:17:31]>> What was the name of the >> truck lacrosse?

[00:17:42]Most Titanic narratives end with the survivors being picked up by the Carpathia in the early hours of April 15th, 1912. But that's where my new podcast, After Titanic, begins. Because so many fascinating things happened in the aftermath of the Titanic disaster.

[00:17:58]From the official inquiries by the American Senate and British Board of Trade, to the dozens of film and television adaptations to Bob Ballard's expedition to find her, which was actually a covert mission to recover two lost US nuclear submarines, to the doomed expedition aboard Ocean Gates Titan Submersible. My name's Amanda Hootman, but a lot of my friends call me Hoots. And everything surrounding Titanic has captivated me since I was about 8 years old. So, join me as I go on a deep dive into everything that happened after Titanic. Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

[00:18:46]I'm Truck Lacrosse.

[00:18:50]Truck Lacrosse. I forgot about that.

[00:18:52]>> Replica AI.

[00:18:54]>> I was like, I want to name that sexy and masculine in America.

[00:18:57]>> Lacrosse.

[00:18:58]>> A classic American name.

[00:19:01]>> Okay, I think we're back.

[00:19:02]>> Oh, >> you can include that or or not. Doesn't matter.

[00:19:06]>> June 28th, 1969. That's when the Stonewall riot starts. I was like, "Why does that sound so familiar?"

[00:19:12]>> So familiar. June 28th, 1969.

[00:19:16]Uh, a police >> I'm going to start saying that's my birthday.

[00:19:18]>> June 28th.

[00:19:19]>> June, 1969.

[00:19:20]>> June 28th, 1969. I [ __ ] Yeah.

[00:19:24]>> Oh, I am wet. I'm damp as hell. This couch is white. It's just blue from all the water, which is blue coming off of me.

[00:19:32]>> Water is blue. Famously, water is blue.

[00:19:36]>> Draw water. I guarantee you it's going to be blue, [ __ ] >> Yeah. what color you can make it.

[00:19:41]>> Okay. Anyway, Stonewall.

[00:19:43]>> Uh yeah, I'm going to I'm going to sum it up very quickly. Um again, go watch Drop the Tea. Um go watch our um companion episode about uh uh Marsha P.

[00:19:54]Johnson.

[00:19:54]>> Also, what is a groomer? You know what?

[00:19:57]I'm going to >> Stonewall a lot.

[00:19:59]>> Apparently, that's a big thing for gay people.

[00:20:02]>> Yeah, who knew?

[00:20:03]>> I'll probably drop the trailers to these at the end of the episode, maybe.

[00:20:07]>> Cute. That's a good idea >> cuz I have really sick trailers for both of those.

[00:20:10]>> Really good idea. A police raid is staged at the Stonewall Inn, a gay bar in Greenwich Village. There's a period of time where a lot of police raids are happening at um gay bars on the regular.

[00:20:22]Um and they're not not like official gay bar. It's not like we nowadays where like it's the gay bar. It's like a a gay bar wouldn't kick you out.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah.

[00:20:32]>> Yeah.

[00:20:32]>> For being visibly gay. And as the cops are taking trans women into the bathroom to sexually assault them and arresting lesbians for looking like lesbians, a fight breaks out and that turns into two nights of full-scale rioting. And those riots turn into actual organizing and the formation of the Gay Liberation Front and the Gay Activists Alliance and basically the entire movement for queer liberation in the United States. Like it's a twoline sum up. like we could do an entire two-parter on Stonewall itself.

[00:21:08]>> Um, in Drop the Tea, Sarah goes through like from beginning to end the entire thing. So, if you're really interested, she goes really in depth. Um, and I actually in Blender recreated Stonewall.

[00:21:21]>> Oh, I remember that.

[00:21:23]>> Like the whole set. And then I also made it smaller and shrunk it down in front of her for as like a little diarama.

[00:21:28]>> Diarama.

[00:21:29]>> A diarama.

[00:21:30]>> Diarama. Um, but yeah, if we we've already done it. You we don't need to say it twice.

[00:21:37]>> Yeah. But yeah, go go go watch that if you would like a a deeper look at what happened at Stonewall. And it's also the reason that every pride celebration in the US at least is held during the month of June because the very first one in the US was uh held on the anniversary of Stonewall.

[00:21:57]>> It is in most of the places in Canada as well for like other reasons like we also had like events that were happening in June like in Toronto. Um but in Ottawa our march took place in August and that's why we have like our own we celebrate in August. Do you remember why? Is there like a a specific reason or >> uh I don't I don't actually know.

[00:22:16]>> You just picked it. There's like nothing else going on in August. They're like, "Let's >> No, like like the original march like like our biggest march for gay rights like >> happened in August.

[00:22:27]>> I don't remember what year it was. I've actually never looked into it cuz I haven't lived here that long, but if you walk around in Ottawa in like center town, there's like all these little like boxes with like paintings of um the gay rights leaders and like the march and stuff. I just want to know what it was.

[00:22:42]Look it up. I just want to know what year.

[00:22:44]>> August 27th, 1971. Like my actual birthday.

[00:22:48]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:22:48]>> Well, I mean, not 1971, but like >> Oh, and that's why the Pride March is like almost always on your birthday.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah. 200 homosexual men and women marched onto Parliament is the the little thingy, but Okay.

[00:23:01]>> Oh, cool.

[00:23:02]>> Yeah.

[00:23:03]>> Um, so only a couple years later.

[00:23:05]There's some debate as to whether Sylvia was actually at Stonewall or took part in the riots. Uh, however, she would have been like 17 around this time or something like that. I think 18 maybe.

[00:23:18]Um, and she didn't like she didn't actually hang out at the Stonewall Inn a lot. Um, so there's like debate as to whether she was there that night. Um, >> I believe Sarah found that she was not at the Stonewall when it happened, >> but joined the riot after when she heard what was going on.

[00:23:39]>> Yeah.

[00:23:40]>> Like they were in a park near >> one of the versions that I heard. Yeah.

[00:23:43]>> Um cuz Yeah. I I think at this point she didn't even hang out in bars. She hung out like >> she was like drinking at the docks like the way 17-year-olds do.

[00:23:51]>> Yeah. We didn't have bar money. What are you talking about?

[00:23:54]>> Yeah. However, uh Sylvia claimed that she was instrumental to the riots and may have even started them because Sylvia Sylvia was like also a a little bit of a showwoman. She was like one to exaggerate.

[00:24:06]>> And you know what? That's a woman's right.

[00:24:09]>> Yes, that is a woman's right.

[00:24:10]>> It's a woman's right to choose to lie.

[00:24:13]>> Yeah.

[00:24:14]>> Well, to get a little hyperbolic.

[00:24:16]>> To get a little hyperbolic. Martha P.

[00:24:18]Johnson is always like credited with throwing throwing the first brick at Stonewall. She like repeatedly denied that. She did drop >> She did drop some bricks, >> but she always said she showed up later.

[00:24:28]>> She showed up later, but she always had bricks in her bag >> because she was insane.

[00:24:32]>> Well, yeah. She like to hit >> She like to hit people with bricks.

[00:24:37]>> Like by all account, she climbed up a lamp post and like threw bricks down onto a onto a cop car window.

[00:24:44]>> [ __ ] hilarious.

[00:24:46]So camp.

[00:24:47]>> Nothing has ever been more based. I will say you're at a riot and all you see is Marcia Pete Johnson up on a [ __ ] lamp post dropping bricks on a >> birkin. She's like Sylvia. So, like I said, Sylvia like exaggerated um and she's like not the most reliable narrator. There are historians of Stonewall like uh Lawrence Lefountain Stokes, professor of language and gender studies and author of Trans Locos, the politics of Puerto Rican drag and trans performance, which I really want to read. Um who have noted that uh Sylvia was always able to speak about the events of Stonewall with a degree of accur accuracy that implied she was there like in conversations he had with her with her personally >> like everything matched up.

[00:25:33]>> Yeah. Um, other Stonewall historians like David Carter, um, author of Exploding the Myths of Stonewall, have pointed out, uh, that she contradicts herself in some statements and they use that as proof that she wasn't there. Um, which I also >> Exactly. So, getting something wrong when, let's be frank, you're doing a lot of drugs.

[00:26:06]>> Yeah. Um, I honestly think it could be a little bit of both. Like, I'm in the camp of like I I would believe that she wasn't there when it started, but that she showed up later.

[00:26:15]>> Um, because she is again, >> I do not believe she would have missed.

[00:26:18]>> She would run toward me.

[00:26:20]>> Like, please.

[00:26:21]>> There's a ride at the Stonewall. The way there just would have been a Sylvia shaped like dust cloud in the air like in a cartoon.

[00:26:29]>> Yeah. Like the Sylvia lamp, the Sylvia signal.

[00:26:34]>> Um like even if she just showed up for the second night or something. I could see that like cuz it was two nights of rioting and then organizing.

[00:26:41]>> Well, I also feel like Stonewall is sort of extends past the riots in people's minds. It doesn't matter. You when you say you like started Stonewall, >> it's like the riot. I can see you saying like you were you were instrumental in the beginning of this movement. You were there. You >> and she was >> uh and that's like that was going to be like my next point is basically like what matters about Stonewall isn't actually Stonewall. It isn't actually the the uh the place or the riot. It is the organizing that that happened immediately afterwards. And she was integral to that and she was like organizing that.

[00:27:17]>> Had had Star been formed yet?

[00:27:19]>> Not quite yet. So, Sylvia was [ __ ] present for all of the organizing um that occurred in the immediate aftermath of Stonewall and into the early 1970s.

[00:27:31]Um she protested at NYU. She was arrested while canvasing in Times Square. She had she had pieces that she had written published in gay publications at the time, but she said she worked closely with the Young Lords, which is like a far-left Puerto Rican group modeled after the Black Panthers, and that she worked with the Black Panthers. Um, and >> well, the Black Panthers were really involved >> with the queer rights movement. Yeah, they were. Um, so it's quite possible like how how closely she worked with them is again could be something that she exaggerated, but like it's it's probably undeniable that she came into contact with the Black Panthers and the Young Lords at several points. Um, and she like uh I didn't really make this super clear at the beginning, but she was like, uh, Puerto Rican and Venezuelan, so it would make sense again that she would contact the Young Lords.

[00:28:27]>> Um, because it was a Puerto Rican group.

[00:28:29]Like in 1970, Sylvia and Marcia founded STAR, the uh, Street Transvestites Action Revolutionaries. Um, so just like a little note about that particular t-word. It's a it's outdated. It's not like I don't think it's considered a slur today, but >> I think it depends on who uses it, >> who uses it and how it's used.

[00:28:49]>> Yeah.

[00:28:49]>> Yeah.

[00:28:50]>> But so it it can hit the ear a little bit jarring. Uh it's a little bit for our modern sensibilities. Um but like transgender wasn't really a term back then. Um and uh talk discussing like Sylvia's relationship to gender as well. Uh, since she didn't really have the word transgender, Sylvia often actually described herself as a halfsister. Um, quote, "Transvestites are homosexual men and women who dress in the clothes of the opposite sex. Male transvestites dress and live as women. Halfsisters like myself are women with the minds of women trapped in male bodies, >> which is like you can't get any closer to the like most commonly understood, if not a little barebones, I think, definition of transgender that is used today.

[00:29:43]>> Yeah. The one like the one that most cis people even are like it's just like somebody trapped in the wrong body. Um, other times though she did take like a little bit more of a fluid approach to gender, which again could be like a linguistic thing. Uh, she referred to herself at times as a gay man, a drag queen, or a gay girl.

[00:30:00]>> Mhm.

[00:30:01]>> Just like >> the use of the word gay was like >> it was an umbrella term.

[00:30:07]>> It's Yeah. And it's not now >> because queer has taken over LGBTQ plus.

[00:30:12]Um, >> I guess it it only is in the sense that like the gays is an umbrella term, >> but like but even we don't really now we just say queer.

[00:30:21]>> Yeah.

[00:30:22]>> And that makes people really mad.

[00:30:24]>> I'm thinking about um just the fact that she said a gay girl.

[00:30:29]>> Mhm.

[00:30:30]>> You know what I mean? Like I believe she was a queer woman.

[00:30:34]>> Yeah.

[00:30:34]>> Which is what we would say now.

[00:30:36]>> Yeah.

[00:30:36]>> Right. But like >> calling herself a gay girl shows that she doesn't she's not using gay as in like I'm a samesex attracted man.

[00:30:46]>> She's using it as queer. She's using it as like a blanket term for anybody that doesn't fit into that.

[00:30:52]>> She's a girl. She's in the gay rights movement. Like >> exactly.

[00:30:57]Um and and partly because of linguistics and partly because um of the culture, trans people back then and gay people in general just had like a more malleable relationship to their gender identity and even their like sexual orientation.

[00:31:14]And >> we'll get into some of not all of them like again like the assimilationist white middle class gay men were like I'm I'm exactly like the heteros but I I love busy. There's like there's just less labels.

[00:31:28]>> Yeah, there's less labels. So then you have to kind of come up with your own explanation.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> Um language really does inform our perception of the world.

[00:31:37]>> And it's not that there were less identities.

[00:31:40]>> No, >> we just didn't.

[00:31:43]We hadn't like >> So the way that these words come about I always find is that people realize that it's not specific enough to their experience, >> right? And from that those smaller communities in as part of the larger community develop their own words to discuss things that we didn't have language to discuss before. And like so many people will be like 20 years ago you didn't hear people say transgender 20 years ago. A lot of things >> they were still and and Sylvia's proof that they were still having these conversations. they were just having these conversations without um as like without the kind of lexicon to t to talk about it in in the detail that we can now like >> um it's it's a linguistic issue. Um and she was actually she also was um she was not uh super gung-ho about like transition either. She stated that she considered gender confirmation surgery um but she decided against it and she really only started taking hormones towards the end of her life like um so she very much like just was not assimilationist at all.

[00:32:55]>> Well, I'm trying to think about like all of the things that would go into deciding that then like poor medical care.

[00:33:02]>> Yeah.

[00:33:02]>> The excessive cost.

[00:33:05]um the like much less research that had been done like the the difficulty of like where you're going to get it done because a lot of people had to leave the country to go do it.

[00:33:16]>> Totally. Um >> it doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't want it.

[00:33:19]>> Well, and and maybe she doesn't and like Okay, >> also cool. Like I I think it's I I think it's more interesting that she decided against hormone therapy until towards the end of her life cuz I think like I she seems like the kind of person who um >> it's very queer to be like, "Oh, I don't need that.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah, I don't I don't need that. I'm going to present how I want to present."

[00:33:40]>> Very queer to be like, "Oh, I actually >> I do need that. I have severe dysphoria."

[00:33:45]>> Or even just like, "I just want it."

[00:33:47]>> Yeah. She she she was very confident.

[00:33:50]And who knows like if if somebody's like if somebody has a quote they can pull from her about like her experiences with dysphoria, I would welcome you to drop that in the comments.

[00:33:58]>> Oh yes. Sometimes on this podcast there's a little bit of fanfic.

[00:34:02]>> There's a little bit of speculation.

[00:34:03]>> Well, this is not a history podcast. We talking about the past, but we are just having fun.

[00:34:08]>> I'm talking about a trans woman that I wish would be friends with me.

[00:34:11]>> Yeah.

[00:34:12]>> Star. So, back to Star. Uh, STAR worked to combat transphobic abuse, but it was modeled after groups like the Black Panthers. And so it also did serious boots on the ground work like providing housing assistance to unhoused queer people and uh, clothing and food drives.

[00:34:29]Star rented Star House where Marcia and Sylvia became group mothers to the 10 to 20 queer youths that were living there at any given time. Uh, but they also sought out other forms of housing for people, apartments, group homes, trailers, like literally anything to get kids off the street. So, they would bring in as many as they could into Starhouse and then when Starhouse was full and they were finding other queer youths, they'd be like, "Let's find a [ __ ] trailer. Like, let's find anything."

[00:34:57]>> Um, they also attended hearings to advocate for the inclusion of trans people in the New York City gay rights bill when it was first proposed in 1970.

[00:35:07]It wouldn't pass until 1986.

[00:35:11]In 1971, the residents of Star House were all evicted and a lot of them returned to living on the streets.

[00:35:18]Yeah. Throughout 1972, Star saw a decline in meetings and demonstrations.

[00:35:24]And in July of that year, Sylvia was arrested for carrying a knife that she kept for self-defense because she was a [ __ ] trans sex worker.

[00:35:35]>> Mhm. I like in a country that like uh that like [ __ ] strokes its its [ __ ] [ __ ] over uh over like open carry like right to carry.

[00:35:49]>> Okay. The idea that you can have a gun but not a knife is insane.

[00:35:53]>> [ __ ] wild to me.

[00:35:55]>> It depends on the kind of person carrying the knife though. I guarantee you if I was carrying a knife, I would not go to I would not go to jail.

[00:36:02]>> Yeah. She spent several weeks at Riker where she flooded toilets and set mattresses on fire in protest.

[00:36:09]>> I love I love that all of the people on this podcast who I'm like obsessed with are all arsonists.

[00:36:19]>> I love it.

[00:36:20]>> We um we have an arsonist coming up and I am so excited because she is I mean I just love arson.

[00:36:29]>> I love crimes.

[00:36:30]>> Yeah. Number one, I love crime, but I love like petty crime. I love like flooding toilets toilets. Like I love the whole alonery of it all. The Kevin Mallistry of it.

[00:36:42]>> I was Okay, so sidebar, I was like a very good kid growing up, but the only time I got in like really big trouble um were >> you playing with matches?

[00:36:53]>> No, at at my elementary school board then fourth or fifth grade. Um, a couple of girls and I were in the bathrooms and I think we were going to like run late to something or something and I was like just throw some like throw extra toilet paper in the toilet and make it look like one of the toilets is clogged so we had to wait. And then that somehow turned So it was my idea to start, but that somehow turned into us really flooding all of the toilets like the entire [ __ ] bathroom with like water like this like an inch high on all the floors. I I will say a lot of times they could fire a janitor if there's not enough for them to do. So like you're really a jaw maker.

[00:37:37]>> I got in so much trouble. I got in huge trouble.

[00:37:40]>> What did somebody ner?

[00:37:43]>> Well, we flooded the bathroom so that the the floor was covered in water like an inch thick and then they saw us running away.

[00:37:49]>> Oh, the running away. See, I would have went directly to the principal's office and be like >> what wasn't smart enough. Yeah.

[00:37:55]>> It was like one of those things that like very quickly got out of hand. Like I was like just just >> Yeah. I was like clog one toilet and then we'll be like, "Oh, well we were only late because we were >> we had to wait for the bathroom and you had to >> remind me to tell you guys sometime about burning down that daycare."

[00:38:12]>> Arson.

[00:38:12]>> Yeah. Fire just It's so quick and it has a mind of its own.

[00:38:15]>> God, I didn't write in a break here, but like should we take a break for ads for >> arson insurance?

[00:38:22]>> Oh my god.

[00:38:24]Fire insurance. I need that. I live in California.

[00:38:27]>> Yeah.

[00:38:44]>> What's that? What's that [ __ ] bear name? Who's like only you? You could prevent forest fires.

[00:38:49]>> Oh, Smokey Bear. Oh, I love Smokey Bear.

[00:38:52]>> That little [ __ ] The [ __ ] He's not a [ __ ] bear. He's a big bear.

[00:38:56]>> Oh, yeah. No, >> he's a big muscly bear.

[00:39:00]>> Call me Smokey.

[00:39:01]>> Okay, I guess we're back.

[00:39:03]>> Yeah.

[00:39:03]>> Sylvia would be arrested two more times in early 1973 while attending.

[00:39:07]>> She's innocent. I was with her.

[00:39:09]>> Like this time she was just attending protests in support of the New York City gay rights bill.

[00:39:14]>> Okay.

[00:39:14]>> But you know how police love to arrest protesters.

[00:39:17]>> Honestly, everybody showed up for Bill and then when it was Bill's time to show up for everybody else, New York City, where the [ __ ] was he? New York City's gay bill, where are you now?

[00:39:29]>> So, throughout this time that Sylvia is like in and out of jail, Star continues to languish. Um, >> I like how you're like, they started having a lot less meetings. And I'm like, well, they were homeless and in jail.

[00:39:39]>> They were homeless and in jail.

[00:39:41]>> Yeah. And it's also part of the reason why they like to keep them homeless and in jail is because it's actually a lot more difficult to organize when you're barely able to survive.

[00:39:53]>> Yeah.

[00:39:53]>> Mhm.

[00:39:54]>> And on June 24th, 1973, we have that speech from the 4th annual Pride Parade.

[00:40:02]>> She wanted to get up on stage. So like the context of it as well. I was just thinking when she was screaming the letters, >> I wouldn't have stopped.

[00:40:10]>> I would just just see how long >> like gay power is great. Um, thank you all for being here with me today. But like every single [ __ ] just see how >> all their before somebody drags you off.

[00:40:24]But like, okay, the context of it like she's so like her emotion in it is like palpable. Like it goes from anger to like >> wild. She's like kind of laughing at the end where she's like, "I'm [ __ ] out of breath."

[00:40:35]>> Yeah. But like the context of it like [ __ ] [ __ ] gays are like stopping her from speaking >> like I'm sorry we are at the [ __ ] gay rights rally.

[00:40:46]>> The girl exactly. So, she wanted to get up on stage and speak uh speak on STAR, like uh who please try to get STAR back up and going and advocate for trans people and queer people of color and specifically the homeless and incarcerated queer community who always gets left behind >> who are she's like very much hammering home. And this is when I noticed the booze stopped >> when she's like they're being beaten and raped and they're like, "Oh, well now it's not you made it not fun to yell at >> fun anymore.

[00:41:16]We were having fun harassing you, but now that you brought up all those horrible things that I actually empathize with, >> it's a little annoying. It's like when someone you don't like makes a good point >> and then you're like >> heartbreaking.

[00:41:27]>> Well, heartbreaking. Someone you don't like just made a good point.

[00:41:33]>> And so, a lot of other attendees thought that uh advocating for um the less desirable queers uh was inappropriate.

[00:41:43]So, they tried to stop her several times throughout the day.

[00:41:46]Obviously, she barreled her way in stage anyway and gave that incredible speech.

[00:41:50]>> Yeah, good luck.

[00:41:51]>> Yeah, good luck stopping Sylvia Rivera.

[00:41:53]Who the [ __ ] do you think you are?

[00:41:56]>> She'll just keep popping off.

[00:41:58]>> Like, oh, we're going to stop stop her from speaking. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to let this one play out.

[00:42:03]>> Yeah. All right. Have fun, bestie.

[00:42:06]>> You're not attached to her teeth, are you?

[00:42:11]Um, but after giving that incredible speech, she kind of withdrew from activism for like the next two decades.

[00:42:21]Uh, allegedly backstage immediately after the speech, Marca and Sylvia had like a little bit of a falling out. Um, where like in the middle of an Marsha like accused her of not being at Stonewall and was like, "Shut up. You weren't there." Um, which again like doesn't [ __ ] matter. Apparently a witness backstage.

[00:42:40]>> Okay.

[00:42:41]>> Um, who knows?

[00:42:44]>> Well, I wonder like I >> just might make things up.

[00:42:46]>> My question every time I hear something like this is and who said it?

[00:42:51]>> Yeah. What is their motivation?

[00:42:52]>> Like what like I'd love to also ask them uh and what do you think about trans people at Stonewall? Like you know what I mean? This is a a very simple follow-up question that would have no motivation of my own.

[00:43:05]>> But also like even if Marca actually did say that like friends say [ __ ] things to to each other sometimes.

[00:43:11]>> Um and apparently like right after this Sylvia decided to leave New York City.

[00:43:17]>> She moved to just outside of Manhattan to Terry Town which is now considered part of the New York metropolitan area.

[00:43:25]So not far. Um, and she started a catering business.

[00:43:28]>> The nipa, I imagine it's called.

[00:43:30]>> The nipa >> or New York na.

[00:43:33]>> The nim. Yeah, the na. The na. Um, >> I was only counting. I was like New York politinaria.

[00:43:42]>> Uh, and she started a catering business with her partner at the time.

[00:43:47]>> What was it called?

[00:43:47]>> I don't know. I don't care.

[00:43:49]>> Oh my god. the [ __ ] I just got a flashback from that Darmman video where that lesbian starts a catering business and it's like >> Silia.

[00:43:58]>> It's like Kristen's cool cakes or whatever and I'm like oh >> oh >> Kristen no >> uh we might not need to but let's do another like take a break.

[00:44:11]>> I actually do want to take a break because I am slow cooking um some pasta sauce cuz we're going to have pasta tonight. So, I'm going to give it a little stir and then we'll be right back.

[00:44:20]>> Let's get an ad for pasta sauce.

[00:44:23]>> Let's get an ad for stir >> for pasta.

[00:44:41]We're back. I hope you I hope you're nice and hungry after those pasta ads.

[00:44:46]>> Oh my god. I wish I could give them some pasta.

[00:44:50]>> I know. Like spoon feed you through the camera.

[00:44:54]>> Oh, I bet that would be that's that's for somebody.

[00:44:57]>> Yeah, that's somebody's king.

[00:44:59]>> That's somebody's I could tell you right the [ __ ] now. You like that?

[00:45:03]>> The airplane's coming in.

[00:45:07]>> Open wide.

[00:45:08]>> Here comes the airplane.

[00:45:10]>> Gross.

[00:45:12]>> For more of that, you're going to have to check our Patreon.

[00:45:15]>> That's right. We're putting that behind the payw wall.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah.

[00:45:18]>> Sylvia Rivera basically blamed the Pride demonstration for killing Star um and got frustrated with mostly cisgender, mostly middle-class queers who led the movement and advocated for incremental reform.

[00:45:30]>> At some point when you're not only fighting like society at large, >> but fighting your allies allies.

[00:45:38]>> Well, yeah. fighting the fighting for people that are not your allies, fighting against people that are not your allies, it can get extremely [ __ ] tiring, I would imagine. Like >> even the little bit that I've experienced being somebody even just somebody who advocates for the importance of Sylvia and De Marsha, >> right? I get so much hate. Like the the the things that I have been called and the things that people have said, the things that people have wished upon me for. Like I literally I had I had an older gay man comment on uh the drop the tea video and said that the world would have been better off if I had died when I was bashed because I was co-opting the gay rights movement. And I'm like, "Sir, you do not care about gay rights."

[00:46:29]>> Oh my god.

[00:46:32]Well, I hope that guy's dead.

[00:46:33]>> I'm sure he is. Well, at least to me.

[00:46:37]>> So, for a while, she kind of washed her hands of the movement.

[00:46:41]>> Uh, and I I can't blame her. Can't really blame her.

[00:46:46]>> But then in 1992, Marcia P. Johnson dies.

[00:46:50]>> Uh, we talk about this in the Marshia P.

[00:46:52]Johnson episode, but the circumstances of Marsha's death are somewhat suspicious. Uh, she's found floating in the Hudson and her death is ruled a suicide despite the fact that she's got a [ __ ] head wound. Like somebody clubbed her on the back of the head.

[00:47:07]>> My my favorite method of dying by suicide is >> yourself on the back of the head.

[00:47:11]>> To attack myself from behind.

[00:47:15]>> So after Sylvia gets a telegram informing her of Marsha's death.

[00:47:19]>> A telegram. What [ __ ] year is it?

[00:47:22]>> 92.

[00:47:23]Feels very late for a telegram.

[00:47:25]>> Okay. But I was also I forgot what a telegram was for a second and I was thinking of Morse code like her actually getting it at well I know they're scent as Morse code or whatever right but like I pictured her like at the thing being likeoop and being like >> oh my god >> like writing it down >> I see it's not funny >> it's not funny I always imag like every time I hear of somebody getting a telegram even though I know what a telegram is I think of a singing hologram. So, I imagine somebody showing up on her doorstep and singing.

[00:47:59]>> Not this, not this [ __ ] like 80-year-old twink in a bow tie.

[00:48:06]>> Uh, >> I love the idea that because they refuse to sing twice, they like have to serve you. So, they have to find you and be like, "Are you Sylvia Rivera first?" And then they break out into it. But he looks like an old >> I'm here to serve you.

[00:48:18]>> They in my head, they look like an oldtimey lawyer.

[00:48:22]I imagine a guy that look like the Dapper Dans from Disneyland. Um, look them up.

[00:48:28]>> I will say that when I said oldtimey lawyer, I think I was picturing Fogghorn Legghorn.

[00:48:33]Well, I'll say I'll say I say, "Your Fred just died.

[00:48:38]>> It's so sad. It's so sad." So, she gets a telegram um and like immediately returns to the city and becomes homeless again. like she just come she rushes back and lives on the street.

[00:48:51]>> I can't even imag like one I can't even imagine getting a message that my friend just died period like in any way. But like especially if you're if you know what you're going to have to like give up. Like you leave your catering business, you leave your home, you go back to this place that was like never welcoming to you where like you had to you were forced into survival sex work.

[00:49:17]Like >> uh she even spent some time living under the bridge where Marsh Marsha's body was found, which is like just the saddest [ __ ] thing. like, >> oh god.

[00:49:30]>> Yeah, she was not okay. Um but she once again tries to advocate for other homeless people in the city >> of course while being homeless herself which is diff >> it's difficult and also like important like there are like a bunch of like today in LA at least um there are unhoused activists that um that speak out for the community um and it it is important to actually hear from those people and not to just like, you know, >> pull a a savior, a housed savior.

[00:50:10]>> But it would be great if like other people were setting up these events.

[00:50:14]Like all you need to do is be there and share what's going on, but like we're setting up the events. We are getting the people there. We are paying you for your time.

[00:50:25]>> Yeah.

[00:50:25]>> Like, do you know what I mean? Like all of those things. Like those are the things that ally should be doing. not speaking to the experiences of people >> um that have completely different experiences than you, >> right?

[00:50:36]>> Like there there are definitely ways to use privilege, especially financial privilege to your advantage.

[00:50:44]>> In 1993, she moves into Transy House, a home for transgender women.

[00:50:49]>> That's cute.

[00:50:50]>> Yeah, trans.

[00:50:51]>> I like that.

[00:50:53]>> Oh my god. Can we name the worm from the intro? Transy.

[00:50:57]>> Oh my god, that's so cute. I was going to say it sounds like an Animal Crossing animal name. Okay. Our worm is officially named Transy the Worm.

[00:51:04]>> Transy the worm. That's insane.

[00:51:08]>> I love it. Our worm is cute.

[00:51:10]>> Mhm.

[00:51:12]>> Um and and >> it's like the only cute worm. I will say worms themselves are not cute.

[00:51:16]>> Not cute. But I would get our worm like tattooed on my foot.

[00:51:19]>> I thought about it like a little >> Yeah. Like a little >> popping out. Uh it's uh so Transy House was a home for transgender women that was patterned on Star House originally. So she moves into a house that was like based on >> That's wild. You basically like >> Yeah.

[00:51:35]>> You move into your house's daughter.

[00:51:37]>> Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> The [ __ ] >> That That's an I wish I had said that phrase cuz it really grosses me out.

[00:51:43]Like >> it's an insane sentence.

[00:51:47]>> Hi, I'm actually your grand host.

[00:51:52]Wow.

[00:51:54]Houses with a time machine. Hi, I'm your grand house.

[00:52:00]>> Wait, my grand house or my grand house though?

[00:52:03]>> Oh, grand house.

[00:52:05]>> Grand house is the older one. Grand house. I'm your great grand house.

[00:52:08]>> I'm your great grand house.

[00:52:12]So, it's at Transia House that with the support of her community, despite still actively grieving, u she also starts to address some of her substance abuse issues cuz like I mean >> I haven't really mentioned this, but yeah, >> I haven't really mentioned it, but I I kind of get it goes without saying that like if you're living on the street and also doing survival sex work, occasionally you need like a drink or a drug to like >> see yourself through the day. Um, so she she had pretty significant substance abuse issues. Um, but she starts getting sober for a while in the house. Um, >> was it a rule of the house or it was just her thing? No, she was just trying.

[00:52:52]>> If it's patterned on Starhouse, probably not.

[00:52:54]>> And maybe while she was um while she was running her catering business, like she was probably doing less at least.

[00:53:01]>> Probably. Yeah.

[00:53:02]>> Um, and there's like a difference. I was supposed to be like doing less obviously you're doing less drugs if you're doing a catering never mind.

[00:53:09]>> No, >> the you know who >> people who work Yeah. in the people who work in the food industry like are you [ __ ] kidding me? Their livers are always like >> they're like by the way we get one 10-minute break a day and it's when we sleep at night.

[00:53:26]>> Those livers are running on fumes. And by fumes I do mean ethanol.

[00:53:31]>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, uh, it's also here that she meets another transw woman experiencing a mental health crisis named Julia Murray.

[00:53:40]So, Sylvia and Julia kind of trauma bond a little bit. Um, >> as you do.

[00:53:46]>> As you do. Um, and when Julia when Julia says that she has trouble sleeping at night, uh, Sylvia offers her her bed.

[00:53:55]>> So, she's kind of healing a little bit, but like, you know, these things are are never completely linear.

[00:54:01]Um, and in 1995, Sylvia attempts suicide by walking into the Hudson River.

[00:54:08]>> She doesn't die. Uh, and she does continue healing at Transy House and she kind of returns to her activism a little bit. But that's, you know, just like discussion about people dealing with like grief and depression and and uh suicidal ideiation is healing is never linear. And sometimes people seem like they're starting to get better. Um, and they might have uh they might be planning to die by suicide or they might um have like a a sudden downturn and and uh be because they uh because they felt like they were getting better and then they had a bad uh week or something, they might think that there's no hope.

[00:54:51]Um, so just I don't know my little like suicidality PSA is um show lots of lots of patience and grace with the people in your life who are struggling with mental health crisis. Um, and uh I don't know just checking on them.

[00:55:07]>> I I think the like for people struggling understanding that you're never just like oh now I'm healed.

[00:55:16]>> Yeah. There's never like a final point and like you'll never like when you go through trauma you don't become the person you were again. You can lose some of those traits that you admire and work towards getting them back and successfully get them back. Totally. But like hopefully nobody is the same person they were 5 years ago anyways >> other than really embarrassing people.

[00:55:39]The kind of people you don't want to be.

[00:55:41]>> Exactly. The trajectory of your life can change. Um and uh and and sometimes that is a uh often that is a a painful um and difficult process and it's unfair. You know, it doesn't it doesn't make you less of a person or or than you were before. You know, >> it also doesn't invalidate all the growth that you've had and all the work that you've done to have a little backslide. We have a little backslide.

[00:56:11]>> We all have backslides.

[00:56:13]Um, that's like having a completely linear projection is not how anything works.

[00:56:19]>> No, I I'm able to work for like 50 days straight because I'm like, "Oh, I love what I do. This is perfect." And then for like a week, I'm just like, >> "Yeah, >> no movement. Laying in bed, >> rotting."

[00:56:31]>> Even when you love what you do, sometimes you hate what you do.

[00:56:34]>> That is nothing is linear. Everything is like >> also activism incredibly [ __ ] tiring, >> exhausting. like it is both labor in the like traditional sense, but it is also so taxing, especially when you feel like she did that you were like fighting this thing alone. I'm like lucky enough that like in most of my recent life that has not been the case because there's so many >> queer trans activists that are like doing the good fight and doing the good work. But when I was like 12 years old and had never met another, or at least to my knowledge, never met another gay person. I didn't know a single person who was out, uh, my first introduction to being gay was a Law and Order episode about some guy being raped with a bottle.

[00:57:21]>> And that was like he didn't want to tell anyone cuz he was gay.

[00:57:24]>> And I was like, "Oh, gay is shamed for being sexually abused. I have that. I guess I am gay."

[00:57:32]And it's like that was incredibly lonely and I was so angry and like I was looking at all my friends around me who like never once questioned their own privilege, >> right?

[00:57:42]>> Or like never like who were my allies, my only allies in the world were my friends and they didn't understand a single thing about me. They were not fighting my fight. Like it's it's very isolating and eventually you just want to be like, "Fuck all of you. I'm leaving."

[00:57:56]>> Which I did.

[00:57:58]Thankfully, you left by just like leaving town.

[00:58:01]>> Yeah. But as opposed to >> not checking out. Yeah.

[00:58:04]>> Um but yeah, it like it sounds like one of the things that saved her one of the things that made her want to die is like feeling the grief and loss um and and feeling like a support network was taken. Uh and then one of the things that saved her was that she had a support network.

[00:58:26]>> Yeah. Um like these these these networks are kind of like our lifeline. Um >> very literally >> a safety net. Yeah. When when things get uh things get bad.

[00:58:39]>> Yeah.

[00:58:41]>> So and her activism is like as exhausting as it is, it is something to live for. Um and it's something that she returns to and it's something that like um it seems like started to give her like purpose and direction again.

[00:58:55]purpose is really really instrumental >> in >> in like a it gives you will >> the vacuumist.

[00:59:05]>> Oh my god, the vacuumist is back.

[00:59:07]>> Okay, somebody's vacuuming in my apartment hallway break.

[00:59:14]Sylvia attended every gay pride parade in New >> Boys at the door with a glass.

[00:59:25]>> Leave it in.

[00:59:28]Sylvia attended every gay pride parade in New York until the day she died, protesting anti-trans violence, even in the 1990s and the turn of the millennium.

[00:59:38]She hated the already growing corporatization of pride during that era, by the way. She would be [ __ ] rolling in her grave about pride today.

[00:59:50]And she thought that the LGBTQ community's focus in the 1990s should be on transgender violence, not um as it was gay marriage or gays in the military.

[00:59:59]>> Anti-transgender violence.

[01:00:01]>> Yeah. Like not not >> you should focus on transgender violence. as I get my friend Marca to throw a brick at you.

[01:00:11]>> That's base.

[01:00:13]>> Um, yeah. So, the the focus at the time was like gays in the military and like gay marriage. Um, >> I find that so funny because like of all the assimilationist things to worry about like gay all gay people should have all the same rights as all straight people assuming >> including to drop bombs.

[01:00:30]>> Yeah. But like, well, it's just I find it so I find it so funny that like one of the big movements was like, let >> let gays talk about being gay in the military.

[01:00:44]>> Like, >> it's like, but I want to go to like I don't care, [ __ ] >> I do know some I know somebody who was in the Navy during Don't Ask Don't Tell and Don't Ask Don't Tell was the Navy like more chill.

[01:00:58]>> Well, the YMCA saying about it? Are they just like is the Navy just like around America or are they going to other places?

[01:01:07]>> That's a good question. I assume like military bases everywhere host all >> right. They have American bases on foreign soil, >> which is a little weird, but >> a little weird.

[01:01:19]>> Uh >> get your own soil >> and and I think you should be able to tell. Maybe you shouldn't be able to ask. You shouldn't be able to just go up to somebody and be like, "Hey, are you gay?"

[01:01:27]>> Don't ask and I tell if I want to.

[01:01:29]>> Yeah. Don't ask and I'll tell if I want to. And I do think that like gay marriage was important, but like >> I agree with her.

[01:01:35]>> Gay marriage also extremely important.

[01:01:37]>> I agree with her. Prioritize liberation over assimilation. Like there are people that need to be liberated first.

[01:01:44]>> Yeah.

[01:01:44]>> Before we get to do like the like gays working at Rathon.

[01:01:49]>> I'm not naming any names, but if you know, you know.

[01:01:54]>> And there are multiple names at this point.

[01:01:56]>> Oh no. Yeah. Pick one.

[01:01:58]>> It's not just one. You don't know who we're talking about.

[01:02:01]>> Well, if you do, let's go for a walk.

[01:02:04]Let's get outside.

[01:02:06]>> Let's go for a cousin walk. Let's get a little high.

[01:02:08]>> Yeah.

[01:02:10]>> In the mid in the mid '9s, Sylvia was banned from New York's gay and lesbian center because she saw homeless queer youth sleeping outside and demanded that they take them in and then she trashed their front desk.

[01:02:24]I love her. She's so chaotic.

[01:02:28]like just like yelling at the receptionist.

[01:02:30]>> I love people who are like >> knocking papers.

[01:02:32]>> Like I'm about to be your problem.

[01:02:36]>> I've seen a problem and now I'm about to become it.

[01:02:39]>> This problem they're like that's not our problem. She's like I'll show you what your [ __ ] problem is.

[01:02:43]>> Problem. I love her.

[01:02:47]>> But also in this latter part of her life, uh Sylvia starts working very closely with the Metropolitan Community Church of New York, which is a queer friendly church. still exists to this day.

[01:02:58]>> The Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto is a gay friendly church in Toronto um headed by a gay reverend um who was the first man in Canada to perform a same-sex wedding.

[01:03:13]>> Wow.

[01:03:14]>> Um also he had a samesex wedding at that church and I set up the wedding.

[01:03:21]>> Oh wow.

[01:03:22]>> It was cute.

[01:03:23]>> Oh my gosh.

[01:03:23]>> It was my community service hours in high school. celebrities. You have to 40 hours and that's what I did.

[01:03:29]>> That's amazing. Um, while while Sylvia was working with the Metropolitan Community Church of New York, uh, she actually ran their food pantry >> because once again, her priorities are like keeping people fed and housed and like liberated before all of the other [ __ ] >> There's I I don't know how I feel about the term priority being used when it comes to this stuff. Like I think that like I I'm a pedant. I'm a little nitpicky. Um but what I I will say specifically is that what we need >> there always needs to be people focusing on immediate community needs no matter what. And nothing else should take priority over over that >> people's safety and needs.

[01:04:17]>> So both always need to be happening.

[01:04:20]There needs to be people looking at the long-term game big picture. There needs to be people making sure that queer people aren't dying on the [ __ ] street.

[01:04:27]>> Yeah.

[01:04:28]>> Like, >> so there's a place for the assimilationists, too.

[01:04:31]>> Well, but I could but a lot of the assimilationists weren't like fighting for anything because assimilation does not involve fighting against the status quo.

[01:04:39]>> It was just like we're >> we're just like you. See, >> we're here. We're just like you. There's nothing to fear. That's >> we're here. We're not queer. That's a slur. And we're not used to it.

[01:04:51]>> We don't look like those ones.

[01:04:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the thing.

[01:04:55]Assimilationists, their main argument is always to >> blend in >> to stand on the shoulders >> of >> of other people to make themselves the most visible >> and like reap all the benefits and rewards of it. And the easiest way to do that is people like [ __ ] [ __ ] Blair White. She's like not even a person anymore. It doesn't matter.

[01:05:21]People like Blair White who the way that they achieve assimilation is by pointing the finger at other people who are too queer, too trans, who don't want to fit in and by joining in on the oppression.

[01:05:38]that because how do you assimilate into a system of oppression without joining in >> as an oppressor?

[01:05:45]>> You literally can't. If you cannot assimilate without joining in with those people because if you stand in that moment and you say actually I think it's wrong that you talk about these people, >> then you get kicked out of the inroup.

[01:05:59]>> You're no longer assimilating. Like it's just it's just there's no option other than joining in as an oppressor. And that's bad. I will say >> on Respect the Dad, we're against depression.

[01:06:11]>> We are against depression.

[01:06:12]>> We're extremely based.

[01:06:14]>> That's why we have so many episodes about genocide.

[01:06:18]>> Oh, those are all yours.

[01:06:19]>> Earlier episodes, I kind of stopped doing them for a little while cuz I needed a little breaky break.

[01:06:24]>> Yeah.

[01:06:26]>> In 1999, Julia, uh, that woman that Sylvia met at Transy House and Sylvia became a couple.

[01:06:34]>> Cute. Oh, she is a gay girl.

[01:06:37]>> She became a gay girl.

[01:06:38]>> Oh, I love that part.

[01:06:39]>> Okay, we are going to talk about that though because like her gender identity, the way she experienced her sexual orientation kind of defied uh expectations or >> uh whatever. Uh there's this quote >> I'm guessing she was like by pan queer general. Yeah.

[01:06:53]>> She's she's quoted as saying, "People now want to call me a lesbian because I'm with Julia." And I say, "No, I'm just me. I'm not a lesbian. I'm tired of being labeled. I don't even like the label transgender. I'm tired of living with labels. I just want to be who I am.

[01:07:08]I will be 50 years old this coming Monday. I don't need the operation to find my identity. I found my niche and I'm happy and content with it. I take my hormones. I'm living the way Sylvia wants to live. I'm not living in the straight world. I'm not living in a gay world. I'm just living in my own world with Julia and my friends.

[01:07:26]>> That is a an amazing way to live your life.

[01:07:30]>> Yeah, >> I will say cuz that's that's how I want to live. She doesn't want to fit into anybody's box except well maybe Julia's but like but I mean like she's I want to live that way too. I care so much about what what other people think.

[01:07:46]>> I thought you're like I want to live that way too and I'm like is Julia still alive.

[01:07:51]>> Julia I think she is Julia >> the amount of callies we have.

[01:07:54]>> Show me your box.

[01:07:57]Um however she also identified um her relationship with Julia uh was based on mutual understanding. Um >> what does that mean?

[01:08:08]>> She said I feel that both of us being transgendered we understand what the other has gone through.

[01:08:13]>> I love her so much.

[01:08:15]>> She's like never call me transgender.

[01:08:17]I'm not both of us are transgender but >> as we're both transgender lesbians >> she's whatever she wants to be in the moment. That's beautiful. That is the best trans obsessed with doing whatever the [ __ ] I want.

[01:08:32]>> Sure. I feel that both of us being transgendered, we understand what the other has gone through.

[01:08:38]>> We have always been with men, but the men that we've met in our lives haven't been able to give us the sensitivity that we share between ourselves.

[01:08:44]>> They just had their own thing going on.

[01:08:46]>> They're lesbro romantic.

[01:08:48]>> They're they're Yes.

[01:08:49]>> I refuse to not label people even when they're like, "The last thing I want is labels." And I'm like, "Well, I'm so sorry. I'm a Virgo.

[01:08:55]>> Okay, I'm sending you a picture of them.

[01:08:57]I'm sending you two pictures of them.

[01:08:59]>> Cute.

[01:09:00]>> They're [ __ ] adorable.

[01:09:02]>> Um, and there's a man in both of these pictures with them. His name is Randy Wicker and he was another resident of Transy House.

[01:09:08]>> Was he trans?

[01:09:10]>> I think I think he was just gay cuz I think they took in other other gays, but I'm not 100% sure. I know >> he's spoken on [ __ ] >> He's very handsome. Oh, they're so cute together.

[01:09:22]>> They're adorable. the little photo of them kissing in front of the Christmas tree.

[01:09:25]>> I love Randy just being like, "Oh, you don't mind if I'm in all these photos?

[01:09:29]>> Do you mind if I photo?"

[01:09:33]>> It's actually really funny. He wasn't there when they took the photos.

[01:09:37]>> But in every photo of the two of them together, he's somewhere in the background.

[01:09:42]>> Not Randy showing up. Following the murder of Amanda Milan, a 25-year-old transwoman killed near the Port Authority bus station, Sylvia revived Star. The murderer who plead guilty in Amanda's case was sentenced to 17 years in prison. And the two other men who were involved didn't even get charged with anything.

[01:10:04]Star organized protests in Sheridan Square calling for justice for Amanda Milan and later got a club closed down after a turned away trans dancer. and they advocated for transgender inclusion in the Sexual Orientation Non-discrimination Act. So, in this period in the late '9s, early 2000s, they they're revived and they um they're they're pretty active. Sylvia's health began declining around this time as the result of advanced liver cancer. Um, which may or may not have to do with all of, you know, the substance abuse. Um, >> that's what my liver is going to be from. I'll tell you that right the [ __ ] now. When I die young lug [ __ ] >> my li my liver is like, oh, is it >> is it to do with the substance abuse?

[01:10:49]Amanda, >> I cannot picture my liver without picturing this like dried out little [ __ ] Yeah.

[01:10:57]>> In in Hocus Pocus when they find that little zombie and they cut his mouth open and like dust in a moth comes out like that's that's my liver's like uh >> what's it called? Like a death rattle.

[01:11:09]My liver is also from Hocus Pocus, but it's the cat right after I got hit with the bus.

[01:11:15]Just flat.

[01:11:16]>> What? What a current cultural touchstone.

[01:11:19]>> Hocus Pocus.

[01:11:20]>> This is great for the like the millennials that listen to our podcast, which is like everyone that listens to our podcast.

[01:11:26]>> Things are going to come out in different orders, too. But this is like not even the first episode where we've used Hocus Pocus as like a >> reference. No, every every like listen to the episodes. There's always one Hocus Pocus reference. It's called an Easterred egg.

[01:11:40]>> Gorgeous. I love those. I love Easter eggs.

[01:11:44]>> I love um what's it called? Paprika.

[01:11:49]>> Mhm.

[01:11:50]Also gorgeous name for a girl.

[01:11:52]>> Oh my god. It is a name for a girl. It's a girl. Paprika shaker in Blues Clues.

[01:11:57]>> Yeah. Papy for short.

[01:11:59]>> Salt. Uh Mr. Mr. Salt and Mrs. Pepper, I think. Or the other way around. Mrs. Salt and Mr. No, I think it's Mr. Salt and Mrs. Pepper.

[01:12:08]>> They had a daughter named Paprika.

[01:12:09]>> They had a paprika baby.

[01:12:10]>> I didn't know that's how paprika was made.

[01:12:12]>> Yeah.

[01:12:12]>> And I still don't.

[01:12:14]>> In spite of her advanced liver cancer, she never stopped her active.

[01:12:18]>> She never did anything halfass.

[01:12:20]>> I didn't know. No. Oh my god. She was so extra. Like >> she was so advanced.

[01:12:24]>> Advanced liver cancer.

[01:12:27]Not me.

[01:12:28]>> My liver cancer was in the gifted program.

[01:12:30]>> Yeah. I was in advanced classes in school.

[01:12:34]Advanced European history. advanced liver cancer.

[01:12:37]>> Yeah. So, she's saying like little stage four kind of moment.

[01:12:41]>> Yeah.

[01:12:42]>> Like, hey, by the way, we caught this, but it's >> it's too late.

[01:12:46]>> Well, I'm guessing she didn't have very frequent access to [ __ ] healthare.

[01:12:50]>> Yeah. I don't think she went to the doctor a lot. I don't think she could >> um until she started getting really sick and somebody took her.

[01:12:58]>> Yeah.

[01:12:59]>> Um but in spite of this, she never stopped her activism. The very same day she died, she met with Empire's state pride agenda delegates to advocate for the inclusion of trans people in in SA, the sexual orientation non-discrimination act. That day was February 19th, 2002.

[01:13:17]Like so many other queer activists, artists, lovers, and friends in the New York scene, she passed away at St. Vincent's Hospital, Manhattan. She was 50. In 2015, Sylvia Rivera, Christina Hworth, and Julia Murray became the first transgender people whose portraits were acquired and displayed in the Smithsonian National Portrait Gallery.

[01:13:39]This is the image of them taken in 2000 by Puerto Rican photographer Luis Carlay.

[01:13:44]>> Cute. Yeah, I know this one.

[01:13:45]>> So, that image is currently on display in the struggle for justice gallery at the National Portrait Gallery. The Metropolitan Community Church of New York, also renamed its food pantry, the Sylvia Rivera food pantry, and its queer youth shelter, is called Sylvia's Place, both in her honor.

[01:14:03]Today, Sylvia Rivera is remembered as one of the leaders of queer liberation post Stonewall and one of the most influential trans women of her generation. In an article about her for the Village, >> she knew.

[01:14:16]>> I know. I I really wish >> I'm like crying now just thinking about the fact that she didn't know and she would have loved to know like >> Yeah. Like >> the fact that this [ __ ] happens after >> Yeah.

[01:14:29]>> and they never get to know >> is just like the crulest part of all of this. Like theostumous um like >> deification or like like [ __ ] show up when somebody's alive, >> right?

[01:14:41]>> But she was the one showing up and this is like them paying >> respect to her. Yeah.

[01:14:46]>> In an article about her for the Village Voice, non-binary activist Ricky Wilchins wrote, "In many ways, Sylvia was the Rosa Parks of the modern transgender movement."

[01:15:00]You can follow Respect the Dead on Twitter and Instagram at Respect the Dead. And you can follow us on Blue Sky, respect the dead. Um, I'm Hoots. You can follow me on Twitter at punished Hoots.

[01:15:11]And you can follow me on Blue Sky at Hoots. I also have a YouTube channel, Hoots Hootman. Uh, you can check out my other podcast, After Titanic, followed on Blue Sky at After Titanic. And you can find episodes on YouTube or wherever pods are casted by simply searching after Titanic podcast.

[01:15:31]I'm Kayyn. You can find me on Blue Sky as Kalin. Everything else, Kalin Conrad.

[01:15:37]Um, I do video essays, little investigations, cute, huge documentaries on big queer things. Um, and you can follow my upcoming horror audio drama called Welcome to Isaiah on everything as Welcome to Isaiah.

[01:15:56]>> If you want to suggest someone else for us to cover, you can do that over on our Patreon where you get access to our suggestion cemetery. Uh, if you have if you're signed up at the weirdos tier or higher. Uh, and also all patrons uh get a key to the morg where we debrief after every episode in our autopsy report minis.

[01:16:15]Um, also I fly to Canada twice a year every year so that we can record all of these episodes in bulk. Uh, it's very hard work and it's also kind of expensive. So if you want if you prefer these inerson episodes to the old format where we're just like in little Zoom windows, uh, please support us. throw throw a couple dollars in the bucket.

[01:16:37]>> Uh and if you're watching on YouTube, uh where we have full videos, uh don't hit don't forget to hit subscribe and turn on the bell so you get notified every week when there's a new episode. And if you're on a podcast app, please give us a fivestar review.

[01:16:52]>> I love those. I actually get them emailed to me.

[01:16:55]>> Oh yeah, we see the email sometimes. So if you leave a really funny comment, we'll like cackle about it in WhatsApp.

[01:17:00]>> I always send it to her and I'm like, "Look, look what this freak just said about us." got us.

[01:17:05]>> Give us a five star review and like read us a little bit because we do laugh about that. We think it's funny.

[01:17:10]>> Okay. Thank you for coming.

[01:17:11]>> We love you so much. Happy Pride.

[01:17:13]>> Happy Pride Month. We You're getting two more episodes this month.

[01:17:17]>> We love the gays.

[01:17:18]>> Mhm. And the gays love us.

[01:17:20]>> So true.

[01:17:21]>> Okay. Love you. Bye.

[01:17:27]>> No one should put up with this. No parent should put up with this for one second. No matter what the law says.

[01:17:32]Your duty, your moral duty is to defend your children. This is an attack on your children and you should fight back.

[01:17:42]>> We want to go back to the Middle Ages.

[01:17:45]>> You want to know why we say that all homosexual, let me make that very clear. All homosexuals are and people say, "Well, what about all the straight people that children? They're >> I don't care what you call them. This is why we need to put these people to death.

[01:18:03]>> Torture, blood sacrifice, serial killings, ritualistic sexual abuse, satanic messages embedded in rock music and board games, human trafficking at pizza parlors.

[01:18:20]>> Can we just start killing these people?

[01:18:22]these people.

[01:18:28]>> There is a bomb on the way to the hospital.

[01:18:37]>> Please evacuate.

[01:18:42]>> This is why we need to put these people to death.

[01:18:45]>> Defend your children. Your children.