Is The Manosphere Toxic?

Added: 2026-05-06

[00:00:01]Hello ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the rational female podcast and we got the usual panel today and we're going to be talking about the manosphere. So I did a great video recently on Louis Thorough's documentary talking about the manosphere called Inside the Manosphere.

[00:00:19]I'm pretty sure that's the title. And yeah, it was uh it was a painful watch.

[00:00:24]I personally thought it was just awful.

[00:00:26]I did not enjoy it. The whole time I was watching it, I was just making notes on my phone because I knew I was going to make a video on it. But I didn't enjoy watching it at all. I thought it was a horrible, horrible documentary. I thought the men were just all for I thought this is not representative of the well-meaning people out there who oppose feminism. This is just the worst kind of people, the worst kind of, you know, arrogant people who just want to show off and who just seem to care about money. Like I said in the video, these men don't love women, they love money.

[00:00:59]So, I'm going to bring it to the panel.

[00:01:00]What do we guys think first of all of the documentary?

[00:01:04]>> Absolute nonsense.

[00:01:06]>> I thought I thought it was >> one-sided one-sided, false, and poisonous.

[00:01:10]>> Yeah. For me, it was as if um you would walk into a brothel and say, "This is what feminists think." And you know, it is as if you're saying that prostitutes represent feminists. this is, yeah, a prostitute might be a feminist, but that doesn't mean that prostitutes represent uh feminism. So I I didn't think that Yeah.

[00:01:32]>> I'm wondering if Louis Thorough was doing it in good faith and just doesn't understand the manosphere or I I don't know if he was intentionally trying to misrepresent the so-called manosphere because let's establish something. the word manosphere and what exactly it means because I've seen the men's rights activists and in activists lumped in with the manosphere which if you want to make it about people that talk about men's issues that's one thing but if you're going to try and present all manospheres as all men's rights activists as being red pillars as being tradons then that's not just incorrect it's disingenuous and it's it's also dangerous because now you're saying that people who talk about men's rights should immediately be labeled as massage and dismissed. Well, then who and when do we get to talk about legitimate male issues?

[00:02:19]>> Well, also really important is that it's not just a misrepresentation. It is the official the official definition. If you just go with Google AI, the manosphere, you know, uh the pickup artists, incel communities, it's a loose network of websites, you know, and forums that are dedicated to misogyny, anti-feminism, and and blah blah blah. Look at Wikipedia. It's the same thing. It's all uh uh looking at it as as as you in the worst possible light. And that's we have to understand that is the official understanding of Manosphere.

[00:02:58]>> Well, they've co-opted the name and they've uh incorporated the worst of it and then they they say that is what it is.

[00:03:05]>> But even if you say that's what it is, you're so incels are part of the manuscript. There were no incelss in that documentary. Um, MAS are part of the manosphere. There were no MAS. It would have been different if he had at least chosen one person from each. He could have chosen one pickup artist, one Incel, one MRA. Instead, he chose all pickup artist. All of them were the same of the same. It wasn't about manosphere.

[00:03:33]It was about pickup artists. Let's go into the world of online pickup artists.

[00:03:38]male online pickup artist. This is not manosphere.

[00:03:41]What What about incelss? What about MAS?

[00:03:44]What about But the truth is that the word manosphere actually started I think at least as an umbrella term to talk about all men who lean away from feminism and pickup artists are a group part of that. Yes. But they're not the only, you know, >> just like fe feminism. You could say all women who believe in what they call equality or all women who believe that women are oppressed are feminist. Yeah, you could walk into a brothel and you would find sex workers and all of them would say, "Yeah, we're feminists because we believe that women are oppressed. These are feminists." But if you're going to do a documentary on feminist, you're not going to walk into a brothel and um and say the these are feminist. These are sex workers who happen to be feminists.

[00:04:28]Right. Right. Yeah. So, I mean to me he's just working standard feminism.

[00:04:33]It's half of gender reality presented as if it were gender reality in its entirety. You're just looking at, you know, okay, if you want to point the camera at macho, fine. But then go also and point the camera at Famisa, the mirror opposite, the feminine side. If if macho is is inauthentic uh immature masculine that's characterized by you know um rigidness um dominance um territoriality hyper competition and so on then okay fine but then go point the camera at fisa have both sides and so fisa would be immature inauthentic feminine that is characterized by uh victim-mongering and moralizing and you know just just look at the mirror opposite. Now you're looking at both sides and now you can now you're doing something constructive. But feminism never does that. Feminism always just looks at men of the power, women are the victims and therefore it just looks at half a gender reality and presents it as if it were gender reality in its entirety. That's actually problem I had because I was thinking to myself, right, they show the manosphere. They show this toxic side of men, but what about the toxic side of women and Louis Thorough makes a point talking about how a lot of these men were abused? A lot of feminists like Andrea Dwarkin or Gloria Steinum had very bad upbringings, too. So yeah, well something something I want to say is that Tim was talking about um show the mirror, show the opposite. It's funny because feminism is a reflection of the toxic side of the manosphere much more than the reflection of genuine men's rights activists because genuine men's rights activists don't say toxic things about anyone. But feminists say just as much toxic things about men as the man is fierce about women. So I find it very interesting that their instinct is to see the manosisphere as the counterpoint to feminism and not us.

[00:06:39]>> So when they think about what is the balance of feminism, what is the reflection of feminism, that's what their brains go to because they're seeing the same level of toxicity. So they're seeing the manosphere as synonymous for the male version of feminism. Isn't it interesting that what they see as synonymous is something toxic and misogynistic? That's almost a confession that the misogyny of the manosphere is a reflection and a portrayal of the misandry of feminism.

[00:07:07]>> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:07:09]If we're going to look at the manosphere, how about looking at the femosphere then, which dwarfs the manosphere after all. You know, that's that would be feminism. That would be all pervasive in our world. The femosphere is practically the world.

[00:07:24]>> Yeah. And the other thing is that what I remember is there was a point where he was um talking to one of the males. It was a black male and he had a girlfriend and um he was trying to he was talking to the girlfriend trying to to talk about oh it's bad that you know this one-sided polygamy, right? Um and the girl said she actually said in the beginning the she loves him because he is someone totally different on camera as off. So I imply I take from that that what she meant is he's not really polygamous. He just pretends to be. or whatever, right? Um, and then she he he kept trying to poke at her to say, meaning he gets something, your man gets something from the relationship, but you don't, which is that he gets to be polygamous, and what about your feelings? You don't get to be polygamous. But I thought that was interesting because he was poking at it to say that she is on the losing end of the stick because he's polygamous. But he never asked all of those women what is it that they get that that the man doesn't. And what is it that they get is that the man is spending lots of money on on her. She's not in the relationship for love reasons. She's not in love with that guy. She they these women are being paid to be there which means that she she gets money he doesn't. So why didn't he poke at that? Why didn't he say to to the man, hey I mean to to yeah you know she's only there for the money. You you don't get genuine love. Do you feel like you get genuine love from a woman who's only there because you're successful?

[00:08:55]The thing is that there are always two sides. He could have poked at what what are the insecurities on his but he only looks at the problems on the women's side to say these men are villains. What about the other way around? Are these women not also villains for for for how they treat men as just ATM or whatever?

[00:09:12]You know, >> can I that by the way the person you're talking about is Myron Gaines uh from a podcast in America that's actually pretty famous. It's it's Fresh and Fit.

[00:09:22]If you're familiar with Fresh and Fit uh that's who he is. He actually lives not too far from me. He is an absolute clown. He has been caught telling the guests on his podcast that they have to sleep with him. He's been caught offering money to prostitutes uh and then shames them for being prostitutes when he was their customer. He was their John not too long before. He's an absolute joke. He's widely rejected by the men's rights movement. He's widely considered to be an absolute joke, an absolute fool, an absolute nobody, completely irrelevant. But the fact that he was taken seriously as a subject makes it impossible for me to take Louis Thorough seriously, frankly. I mean, it's just it's it was it's it's laughable. It really shows that he's either completely clueless or this was an intentional smear piece.

[00:10:10]>> He's awful. And I remember um it's a very good point as well about his girlfriend Angie. Well, they're now not together. And how, you know, the women are just as complicit in this like all those women have chosen to be with those men. And it was the same with Justin Waller, like his partner. She they've chosen to be complicit in one-sided monogamy. Not polygamy, but yes, it's called one-sided monogamy. And you know, it's absolutely right. Like those women have chosen to be with men who have a lot of money. And it's a very very shallow superficial relationship. My >> support system. You see, the system couldn't work without their complicity in it.

[00:10:48]>> See what I'm saying? I mean it it if there weren't if they weren't complicit with it, it would >> Yeah. And I find it interesting that he didn't poke at this insecurity. He it was like he he had bad intentions. He really wanted to say that men are bad >> because it is not a case of just men being bad. Both of these people are toxic in their weird ways. He's toxic and selfish for not wanting to give her exclusive love, but she's also toxic and selfish for basing his his worth on the fact that he can provide a big house, a car, whatever. The these are both very weird, toxic, shallow, nonsensical, uh, you know. Yeah.

[00:11:28]>> Yeah. And it was apparent to me that part of his motivation was a vengeance about those very same men, same type of men that bullied him in gym class and stole his lunch money, you know, on his way to school. You know, these he's got a case against these kind of men.

[00:11:46]>> Yeah. I mean, the men themselves, they're not, you know, they're not particularly decent people. Um, they're shallow.

[00:11:57]They're myself, you know, they're all being paid to be on there. Like perhaps the whole thing itself is a setup. Like maybe it's all staged. Maybe they've all been paid money to appear on this.

[00:12:09]>> Uh >> and at one point they they said one of the men was 23 or something. I can't remember. But the age, as um Tim just said, these men are really young.

[00:12:20]They're exploring life. They're immature. They don't know anything.

[00:12:23]Everybody makes mistakes in their youth.

[00:12:25]These are young Yeah.

[00:12:29]Yeah. But so I want to ask then you guys so what does what actually is the manosphere because my understanding and blue orange has said this there's men's rights activism actual men's rights people like say Warren Farrell or Cassie J or Paul Elum and then there's the manosphere which seems to be part of the red pill community and I know that Roma army for example she herself is a female MRA and she's like styles herself as anti- manosphere so what actually is the manosphere Okay, so this is interesting. According to Google AI, I just looked up Manosphere. They are not including MAS.

[00:13:08]They are not human. When I put manosphere in, they included all those.

[00:13:12]Okay. So, so AI, yeah, Google AI changes its mind a lot. Okay.

[00:13:17]>> Every time.

[00:13:20]I would say that the manosphere is what feminists try and portray men's rights activists as. So the genuine misogynists, uh the genuine red pillars, uh the men who appeared in the documentary, that is what my brain thinks of as the manosphere. But I also do sometimes catch myself alluding to the men's rights movement as being part of the manosphere. Not because we are equatable to those people, but because we're perceived to be part of those people. And obviously there's going to be the occasional overlap between our anti-feminism and their anti-feminism.

[00:13:58]But at the same time, sometimes the manosphere, the red pills, they align with feminists more than we do. So, or at least we talk with some some aspects of feminism because men's rights activists are very very against trad.

[00:14:12]We're very very against the women staying home and not working. And I know that feminists do believe that women should work. But if you look at the more radical uh female dating strategy or pink pill feminism which is getting more and more popular, it's the belief pink pill feminism is the belief that although women should have jobs and careers equal to men, men should still be expected to provide and men should be expected to cover the costs and bills and rents because it offsets the patriarchy and it offsets the historical barriers women have had to financial security. All that nonsense. It's essentially just female supremacy. And when you look at the roles that each partner is supposed to play, it's an even worse version of how red pillars and trons want to treat women.

[00:14:58]>> So pink pill feminism is not exactly mainstream feminism. So I'm not trying to accuse feminists of saying that, but it is growing.

[00:15:05]>> And if you remember FDS a few years ago, pink pill is basically just that, but change names.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah.

[00:15:13]>> I mean, I >> I would say about the manis beer. No.

[00:15:16]Oh, go ahead. Uh >> well I was going to say I support traditional roles in general. Um I think that traditional roles are very good but not in the sense that women shouldn't work. More in the sense that I think in a relationship a man should be you know at his masculine core and a woman should be the feminine. I think that's very good. I don't believe that's one of the problems I have with feminism. I think the men in my generation have become very feminized. And I think that, you know, there's this loss of like like I don't like to use this term, but you could say positive masculinity in the sense of like where a positive example of a man would be someone like a Dress Alba, right? That's a very, you know, grounded masculine man, but he doesn't appear to be a terrible person or I don't know like from television I guess who's a very good Okay, my love Game of Thrones. Let's say Jon Snow, Rob Stark, this kind of the protector, the provider, but also good. And I actually think that's very good for men. I think most men want to be masculine and most women want to be, you know, the feminine counterpart. That's what I think anyway.

[00:16:19]>> Uhhuh. Yeah. Well, hetero the the word hetero means different. Heterosexuality is attracting to that which is different. And if we're going to continue to breed as a species, you're going to have to maintain some measure of polarity in that.

[00:16:34]>> Yeah.

[00:16:36]>> I'm curious as to um I don't really talk to anyone around me um about these kinds of things on a regular basis. My town is I don't want to say apolitical, but people do not like talking about politics here. But what are some things that you've heard? Um, Serena, I know you mentioned a political group that you were part of had a conversation about this. What are some conversations you guys have had around town, around work, around your social circle? How did people that you know around you react to the documentary?

[00:17:08]>> Okay, so um I yeah I mean I don't talk to too many people about politics, but in this I am in a actual political group. It's an international group and we did discuss the manosphere. Uh the general view seemed to be that the men um I don't really remember all of it because so much was said and it was like I think over a week ago but the general view is that these are not good people and they seem to there was a lot of talk about absence of fathers and absence of male role models >> really >> and yeah absence of male role models and also that the men they seem to do like with problems to do with masculinity and themselves like them trying to prove themselves and prove how much money they have. Um, I didn't really like a lot of what was said to be honest. Um, I will say though that I think most people in general have if I think of London like London is a quite liberal multi well it's not not classical liberal like >> it's a hell hole. It's it's a progressive hell hole.

[00:18:12]>> Yeah. It's just like most people I mean this is the thing like I I don't really talk to too many people anymore but when I used to like talk to people a lot um a lot of my old friends like were pro- feminism. I posted an article about this on my subsack actually how most like so many all the women I meet seem to be pro- feminist. um like the people in my life now I don't we don't talk about politics because they don't really they don't have an opinion but there's this view that like you know the this toxic masculinity and I think this is the general mainstream view I think the mainstream view is like the manosphere men are toxic men and feminism is equality and it's just about choice and we need feminism. I think that's the mainstream view. I think that's what most people think. And I think like the funny thing is though, I've looked statistically most people um don't identify as feminists in the UK, but most people do support gender equality, which is very interesting, which goes to show that most people mean by gender equality. You see, they mean you see I think that what they tend to mean by gender equality is a corrective. It's it's all about we'll reach gender equality when we have uh addressed the uh imbalance of power enjoyed by men and the imbalance of victimization suffered by women then we will achieve equality. But that that operates from the initial premise that men have the power and women are the victims. And if that initial premise is false or just one-sided and therefore false, then the the corrective is is false. The corrective is not leading toward equality. It's not leading toward justice. It's leading towards some kind of a world made perfect for women, men be damned kind of thing.

[00:20:08]>> Yeah.

[00:20:10]>> And I also want to uh add to what Jana was saying. Yeah. I mean it's important like for example there are women who will marry these kind of guys that have money with the preconceived notion of having a few kids with them divorcing them and and then milking them they'll keep the they keep the house they keep the income they keep the children >> and cut him out. So I mean it's important to say that not because I want to condemn women but just to say that there's a mirror opposite to these things. Yes, there's some very bad men out there and there's some very bad women out there and they both have weaponry with which they can destroy the other.

[00:20:51]>> Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know I believe in equality of accountability and that's something which I think we all agree with like not equality of men and you know the baseline of men have had all the power and women have been subjugated. It's more that we need to hold men and women equally accountable because it's actually a very dangerous society when we say that everything is the fault of men and women are just victims because what that does is it allows bad female behavior. And I made the point of mentioning this in the group and nobody else like seems to say it. maybe one of I think another guy who's been on my channel before, but most people either have this because I think the majority of people um are either pro- feminist or they don't have an opinion on feminism or without meaning to they make feminist like they espouse feminist rhetoric even if they would say no I'm not a feminist. I don't know anything about feminism. They'll say things like men are so disappointing or you know yes it's always been hard for women and they don't understand where this narrative comes from. It's all conditioning. It's brainwashing. And this is where this stupid documentary is feeding into this cultural narrative of telling people that men are somehow bad and women are all victims when actually the reality is that men and women are both equally accountable of behaving badly and positively towards each other.

[00:22:12]>> Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> Yeah.

[00:22:13]>> Yeah. So, for example, the point the um like uh when they were in this big house with the woman who had um some kids and so on and he was pointing out that um to this guy that that it's one-sided monogamy and isn't that unfair? And then he says the guy said, "Yeah, I tell women directly when I'm on a first date with them that um I have a wife and she's so hot." right now. The interviewer was uh presenting it as if this guy is so arrogant and he he sleeps around with other woman but he doesn't allow his wife. So he has all the control and this is obviously toxic right now. He could have very easily said to the wife, why do you choose a guy who who um who wants to sleep with other people but doesn't allow you to do the same? Um is it are you with him for for money? Are you with him because you just get to stay at home and um and and not uh ever have to worry about money, yet you still live in this massive house with cars or whatever, whatever.

[00:23:12]Meanwhile, I don't think that's really how it is. I think that's just how they pretend it is. It's I mean, it's transparent that they don't actually live like that because it seems like they just, you know, when you're running a business um and you have certain cost, the their business is to look rich because they want to sell their Bitcoin or whatever. And so they spend a lot of money on rent and renting cars and renting places. So I don't think these people are actually rich. But anyway, they could have asked the woman these sort of things. She did say at some point, oh, she she worked at one point in her life and it was so hard and she thinks it's just so much easier that he's in his masculine and she's in her feminine where she never has to work.

[00:23:54]But why didn't you poke at what is why is she doing that? What is you know why?

[00:23:59]Because yeah, some accountability must be on the woman. She's not this poor victim who has no choice. She lives in in a in a huge world where she could choose any man where she could definitely find a guy who wouldn't um want to to sleep with other women. She could definitely do that. She She doesn't have any It's not like, oh my god, she has no choice. Why was there no accountability placed on the woman? I find that to be a bit weird. She could choose easily. What is wrong with her?

[00:24:28]Why is she choosing that? She she definitely choosing it for a reason. And the reason is is just as toxic as whatever his rational is. So >> yeah, these are also these are women that would rather share these these men that are tens, you know, than have a have an a more ordinary man all to themselves. That they're they're choosing. There's there's female agency in all of this that >> there absolutely is. And also, you know, a lot of these men, the women they were with were like only fans models or adult performers. And then you have this guy who's just saying that he would disown his daughter if she did Only Fans when his girlfriend is literally on Only Fans. Well, the the woman the woman in that video I think she looked I mean this is obviously stereotypical and I'm probably wrong, but yes, she did look like she was into that world before. The fact that her breast was so big, maybe she had it pumped or something. I have no idea.

[00:25:29]>> Um but it could be that she's naturally beautiful. I I don't know. I'm just saying. But yeah, this is another world and and they Yeah, they think, oh, they're alphas. They're the the um top I think it's all fake. I don't think any of these men are are alphas or the top 10 or anything. To me, it looks like they're running a business and the business model is I have to appear to be wealthy. And all the money that they rake in from younger men who believe that they are wealthy. They have to spend that on pretending to be wealthy, which means that they actually have no wealth. They're on a rat race. They're in a a loop. And to to me, that doesn't look like real wealth as at all. Both the woman and the men probably came from hard po poor backgrounds and her way of making a buck is to get a guy to pay her entire lifestyle and and that she is essentially a prostitute. I'm sorry but essentially these women are prostitutes.

[00:26:26]So obviously they don't care if the man sleeps with other women because she is a prostitute. Her job is to to get money from him. His he's the John and his world is just running a rat race to pretend to make loads of money so that younger men pay him for advice to how on how to make money and with the money from these younger men he pretends that he has money. So there's no wealth there. There's no um top 10%. There's no this is a prostitute and a scammer who come together and um and that's that's what I saw.

[00:27:03]>> Yeah. So from one of my formulations is uh from as seen from a politicized male perspective, the so-called patriarchy is just men everywhere set in fierce competition in their efforts to perform, achieve, and succeed their way into having what women are empowered to demand of them. And that's what you're saying there. These men are working their asses off trying to be what uh these women want and demand of them because they see the women demand this of them, right? I mean, they're not out there um hunting for some auto mechanic, you know, who might be a really great guy. They're they're uh they're demanding uh these men with Lamborghinis and uh and Armani suits and you know and a mansion and so on.

[00:27:57]>> And that makes them just as shallow as a guy who says he he only wants to sleep with a hot woman and 10 of them at the same time.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah.

[00:28:05]>> These are shallow people, both him and her. Because this is not normal for relationships. A normal relationship is you get to know the person and you fall in love with them for their personality and who they are and something deeper than just oh I've got money and I've got breast, you know.

[00:28:23]>> Yeah. And I think these people are not representative of the average person.

[00:28:27]Like you know I think it's fresh and fit now who are basically they've made people on the internet think that modern women just want men like this and that's ridiculously unrealistic. Like I don't think the average woman wants a guy who is like a million. I mean most women don't know any millionaires anyway. You know the kind of women who have access to millionaires are only fans or as Jana was you know saying like women who basically just use their bodies for sexual attention. The average woman is just dating ordinary guy who works in an office you know and the average man is just is not dating a Instagram model. So normal people are not actually living this kind of lifestyle. And I think that the problem also is that because I would say I believe like I support traditional masculinity, traditional femininity and traditional values is about you know actually monogamy is part of that because it's good for raising families.

[00:29:21]It's good for stability and actually everyone benefits better from monogous marriage. Like I think monogamy in long-term capacity is very good because when you have people just you know having lots of shallow short-term relationships and I'm also saying this from personal experience by the way like it's not a it's not a a healthy lifestyle. It's an empty lifestyle. It's not actually having a meaningful connection with someone. You're not having a meaningful connection. So I don't think that people should aspire to this kind of lifestyle. I think people should like also I don't really care what they choose to do. that's their business. If they want to do that, that's fine. But I think people should aspire to, you know, have some meaning and depth in terms of their relationships with others and have good interpersonal relationships.

[00:30:09]>> I mean, we are we we are having mental health crisis and we will have a lot of mental health crisis to come because of the way in which we don't have any more community.

[00:30:21]The internet has taken over our social systems and the internet is against us.

[00:30:26]It doesn't want us to be happy because you know these are corporations just just want to make as much money from us as possible. And yeah, the thing is that we um humans it is an innate normal human human thing to want to connect with a community to want to have relationships with people who love us.

[00:30:44]As much as we say all of our interactions are transactional and thing, love is actually a real normal part of human psychology and it is true that normal women and men do look for love. They do look for wanting to be appreciated, loved and to have somebody who likes them. This uh caricature is not um a representation of that. This is a trade that it's it's an extreme version of a trans transactional relationship where the man views the his transactional contribution as wealth, money, cars, big house, and uh the woman views her transactional part of the relationship as sex, one-sided monogamy.

[00:31:25]You I'll have sex with you and you go, you know, and so this is an this is an extreme. I'm not saying that transactional stuff is not a part of normal relationships. It may be a part but it's not the whole thing. And normal people seek normal love and appreciation and that stuff.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:44]And the the sexes do fall in love on the basis of a little bit differing cues.

[00:31:51]It is heterosexuality is different and and there is that aspect of of males falling in love with beauty and women falling in love with what you might call I don't know >> competence or or >> but it's an aspect I agree but all people >> you know >> because to counsel that a bit like you're right but there is like there is and I guess more with attraction maybe not with like actual deep long-term love. But in terms of initial attraction, men initially usually go for looks. And this is what I've heard every dating coach say. Men usually initially go for looks and women initially go for things like how much money does he have?

[00:32:33]Is he tall? What job does he do? And then I think as time goes on, love builds.

[00:32:39]>> As we get older, yeah, we begin to be more discerning in a different way.

[00:32:45]>> Can I point out when you said that men go for looks and women go for things like being tall? Being tall is looks.

[00:32:52]>> Sure. Yeah. Well, I guess it's more like >> it's what the the tall represents though. Yeah.

[00:32:58]>> It's some measure of uh dominance >> physical. I mean physical >> but but they but but women are going for these guys. Yeah. I mean, they're obviously really great looking, but uh they're going for um you know, things that are either status or symbolic of status or they are indicators of potential for status, >> right? Women go for safety, competence, uh kindness, um just ability to take care of her. Really?

[00:33:29]>> Yeah. I'm not sure women go for kindness initially.

[00:33:33]I'm not sure women initially look for kindness.

[00:33:36]>> Yeah, kindness later.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. There there are studies on it and kindness is like one of the main things that women go for. Kindness. Um >> Professor Case, why does so many women fool for men who are very bad for them?

[00:33:48]>> Well, because competence is also a part of it. They competence is is really important as well. And you know the ability to project confidence showing so people who are mean are able to project this sort of confidence and uh you know yeah >> so it's complex. Yeah. And this is important. Protect, >> you know, right?

[00:34:08]>> The classic protector, provider. Can he provide? Can he protect? Him being tall is helping him to be able to protect.

[00:34:14]Him being wealthy is helping him to be able to provide. Um, him being kind is is ensuring that he will provide, you know. So, these things play a role.

[00:34:23]>> Family man, right?

[00:34:25]>> Mhm.

[00:34:26]>> Yeah. I mean, I remember Justin Wallace saying that what women want is a hero.

[00:34:30]And he was talking about this like grand narrative of like what a woman is looking for is someone to be a hero.

[00:34:36]He's right. But the problem is that his idea of being a hero is I have my wife, but then I sleep with other women. And also, I want to point out as well because a lot of people will say, for example, why isn't she allowed to sleep with other men? Usually women will accept that as a tradeoff because men have a higher need for sex than women.

[00:35:00]That's why throughout a lot of human history, human societies, there was a lot of polygamy in in well in high status male, not the average male, but for like high status males, it was quite common to have multiple wives, but not as common for women to have multiple husbands because men have a greater need for sex. So, it actually makes sense.

[00:35:18]I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just saying that's >> Yeah. And we also don't have to fear paternity fraud or whatever. Like the point is when we have a child, we know who our child is. So we don't have to worry.

[00:35:28]>> He worries. The male has has the worry of being cuckled, >> right? And >> that's a piece of the male psychology.

[00:35:36]You see, he wants to be able to trust that his woman is his >> and the children that he's raising are his.

[00:35:42]>> By the way, I just want to point out that um Angie left Myron. She broke up with him after the documentary.

[00:35:48]>> Yeah. says that. Yeah.

[00:35:50]>> Yeah. In the end. Yeah. But cheating may not have the exact same psychological implications for men and women. That's true because we are slightly different in this respect. But it still doesn't mean that men should cheat and women should um or whatever. It does I still think it depends on the person and uh you know some people are open to that and if that's what you want then fine.

[00:36:12]But the >> I want to be really controversial and just run off that and say like I think if a man cheats on his wife, the marriage can survive if they have children. I'm not saying that's a good thing at all. I'm not condoning cheating. I think if a man cheats, the marriage can survive. But if a woman cheats, it can't. Because if a woman cheats, she's saying, "I don't respect you." Whereas if a man cheats, he's not necessarily saying, "I don't love you."

[00:36:36]He's saying, "I am a man with a physical need." And I'm not >> You're going to get in trouble for that.

[00:36:42]Well, it depends.

[00:36:44]But there's truth to it.

[00:36:46]>> I'm not saying that to say that I think cheating is acceptable at all. I do not support cheating. Infidelity is wrong. I am saying though that because men and women are different, if a woman is married to a man, and I'm not saying, by the way, if he keeps having multiple women, I'm saying if he does it once, but they have children, that there's still a chance the marriage can can survive.

[00:37:06]>> It always Yeah, I think it depends on the relationship. Some men take um take horn. They would say some men are cheated on and get over it. Some women are cheated on and get over it. Um >> I think it's worse if a woman cheats personally though.

[00:37:20]>> Yeah.

[00:37:20]>> It's worse than kids too.

[00:37:23]>> Well, again, the man can be cuckold. The woman cannot.

[00:37:27]>> Also, the man can detach and have sex without any emotional uh investment.

[00:37:36]And >> can he and women who can't too? There are women who can too.

[00:37:41]>> Yeah, I suppose I've met them.

[00:37:42]>> But I still say that in the bell curves there's probably a difference there.

[00:37:46]>> Yeah.

[00:37:47]>> Overall, women tend to be more women tend to go more when it comes to sex, women tend to like be more emotional.

[00:37:54]>> It's more important to men. It's more important to men this whole non- cheating thing. And I think that's also societal.

[00:38:01]>> So I think it's biological.

[00:38:03]>> Yeah, sure.

[00:38:04]I think the whole non-cheing thing as in I don't think women to a certain extent personally I could say women are sexualized so much that our selfworth is not hurt by a man as much as a male would if you understand because for men sex is something like a trophy you know what I mean it's like he did some kind of work and then got it but for women sex is available we we don't have to >> yeah there's nothing that a woman has to do in order to get sex. It's available, >> right? A woman doesn't have these bragging rights that a man does. He managed to get three women in bed, >> right? You know, achievement, right, for him, >> right? So, so a man being cheated on in in a sense, I feel it may hurt more from that from a societal perspective because he feels that he's lost something in a way. But for the woman, it's it's just okay. He he he betrayed me. Okay. But I don't know. It's not as dramatic. Nobody ashamed.

[00:39:03]>> So I think you to touch upon something you said I think you're saying that for men >> getting with three women is seen as an achievement or something he can brag about whereas for women it's not okay.

[00:39:15]>> It's not for myself. Yeah.

[00:39:19]>> And no one would shame a woman for being cheated on. Like no nobody would shame a woman for being cheated on. However, from a male perspective, I could see that other people would look at it like he he somehow failed or something, >> right?

[00:39:34]>> Well, again, he's a cuck. He's a cuckold, >> right? So, this is a societal thing. So, there are like little different implications that maybe make it more serious for a man or a but beyond that in the real world, you see the the thing about these sort of discussions, even though that might be true, just like even though it is true that some relationships are transactional, this is not an extreme thing. This is a small part of it. The whole a whole relationship is more complex than our general generalizations, you know. So when you're dealing with a whole relationship, you're dealing with two individuals. And what matters more is whatever happens between those two individuals. So how a man or a woman will react is not really about how a man or a woman would react. It's about how those two individuals will react. What is going on in their relationship, you know?

[00:40:20]>> Yeah. So I mean but the so these are just generalizations and I think that's the problem >> generalizing. Yeah.

[00:40:26]>> And I think that's the problem with the whole like pickup artist thing. They view and they take a lot of generalizations and say it's true. And so they look at these transactional things that men and women do and say this is how it is. So therefore I can just pay her and she can not sleep around and I will and this is how you treat women because they're kids in a way. They're looking at it as this as if that is the truth. The truth is a little bit more complex than that. The truth is that humans are humans irrespective of being a man or a woman. And we're so complex that these rules become nothing once you're dealing with a real person, you know.

[00:41:03]>> Mhm.

[00:41:04]>> But yeah, but I >> can I just ask um cuz I was say I said something and I just wanted you to cuz I think you were going to respond to it.

[00:41:12]Um, did you have any thoughts on what I was saying regarding like um, if a man is unfaithful, it's not as bad as if a woman is unfaithful?

[00:41:21]>> I don't want to agree with that on camera to be honest with you.

[00:41:24]>> Okay.

[00:41:25]>> But I know I kind of see your point.

[00:41:28]That's I don't want to take that position. I want to say they're equally equally wrong.

[00:41:33]I do think you raised some interesting points though about the woman doesn't get shamed for being cheated on, but when the man is cheated on, people a lot of people will be sympathetic to him, but people will be much more likely to wonder, "Oh, what did you do to deserve it?"

[00:41:50]>> Uhhuh.

[00:41:53]>> So, I get which I get where you're coming from.

[00:41:56]>> Yeah. I don't take it as as a matter of personal opinion of which is better and which is worse. I think what what uh what I'm hearing uh Zarena ask is uh which is better which is worse in the in the public arena and and on that basis I would say uh it's worse for a woman to cheat than a man to cheat uh in terms of public opinion in terms of uh um uh the the the bigger picture the condemnation uh I think in in society we are are more down on women who cheat than men who cheat.

[00:42:36]>> Yeah.

[00:42:36]>> See, I think traditionally that's true, >> but in 2026, I think societal misandry is so widespread that men are just treated more harshly really in all aspects and everything.

[00:42:50]>> Yeah. I mean I would say for myself I would never want to be unfaithful because you know I think like I have never been unfaithful and I also would never want to be because I feel like it's not fair you know it's like it's it's not like I don't know like I think for a woman if you're doing that to a guy you're basically saying I don't respect you I would rather just leave if I was feeling that way. Um >> for men respect is key you see.

[00:43:18]>> Yeah. In my opinion, women fall in respect as much as they fall in love.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah.

[00:43:24]>> You see, and so if a woman can't respect a man, she really can't feel much of anything toward him romantically.

[00:43:31]>> So respected is really uh but to to bolster what what Thomas is saying.

[00:43:37]Yeah. I mean, in the current world, in the in our feminist world, >> uh men can't win for losing there. Now, we've got this idea that when women cheat, it's for romance, right? And when men cheat, it's just purely for carnal reasons.

[00:43:57]So, yeah, the man comes up >> complicated. Yeah. I mean I think like um the point also I want to make very seriously is though the trai like men have an instinctive need to make and women there's more emotion tied to it more fear and caution because women have the risk of pregnancy but also there's greater social shame for women and you know I'm just like but again that's not me trying to excuse cheating or say I think cheating is okay that's me trying to explain like there's another thing I heard somebody say once, right? And I've really thought about this over the years that a man should love the woman a little bit more than the woman loves him. And when you start to think about that, you think, "Oh, that's awful." But what I'm trying to think of is what is the >> mirror reverse of that is a woman respecting her husband more than he respects her.

[00:44:47]>> Yes.

[00:44:48]>> Well, that's the balance in that system.

[00:44:50]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:44:52]>> And again, I'm not saying that's a good necessarily I'm not defending as a good system, but I'm just saying that there's a balance to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:44:59]>> I kind of think if you if you believe the the man should love the woman a bit more, we're just again going into the stereotypes that I think it's something like men can easier leave as historically men can easier leave the relationship. So the man really has to love her to stay. You know what I mean?

[00:45:18]Because him him leaving the relationship is the is the crack point. It's in a way. So I think that's why also traditionally um they would say the man has the last say or whatever because I think it's always been seen at least traditionally that the man is the one who can leave. The woman is the one she can't leave children. She she must stay at least historically she must stay with the children. So if he leaves then the whole thing falls apart. So he really does need to love her you know. Um she's stuck by the fact that she has kids. I don't I don't know historically at least you know um and she's not working she's stuck she needs him she's dependent on him he on the other hand is not as >> yeah that's with stuff like alimony and you know because it's very hard I think like >> but before that without that without alimony without the the state telling him that >> people have to stay together because you know that's why divorce was illegal >> right but what if he just runs away >> it was largely to protect the woman that that divorce was so hard to Yeah, >> but she couldn't just run away because she has children. She's dependent.

[00:46:24]She's, you know, so because of this dependency that traditional women had children on men, you know, men are the breaking point. And I think that's why traditionally they said they have the last say, that's one reason why. And the other and that's why some people say, oh, the man has to love her more because he has to stay, you know.

[00:46:45]Well, it's certainly men who are the ones who asked to prove their love. Is the men who are asked to slay a dragon in order to prove their love.

[00:46:56]I don't see pressure out there for women to prove their love. It's more about um but but you see again that there is that balance because >> she traditionally looked up to him. He was the the head of the household. He was the one who made the major decisions.

[00:47:16]>> She wanted to pick a man >> who was superior to her in manly ways naturally.

[00:47:22]>> Right? While traditionally chose a woman superior to himself in feminine ways, >> right? And traditionally the man had to prove his love. She didn't have to prove a single thing. Why? Because by virtue of being there, she proves her love. The risk was so great for her in a traditional society to be with a man that by being with him that was her proof. He has no risk traditionally because he could be with a hundred women and nothing would happen to him. Which is why the man had to prove traditionally he had to prove his love.

[00:47:58]A man could go around and sleep with with 70 women. As long as he's not married, nothing would happen to him.

[00:48:04]She cannot sleep with 70 men. So >> do a sex change operation, be a man, and see how easy it is to go out and have sex with 70 women.

[00:48:12]>> No, but but he could without society without societal backlash in a traditional society without >> No, I understand what you're saying.

[00:48:20]Like >> but she would have to be married, which means she would have to be I mean she could sleep with 70 men as well as long as she's married and doesn't get caught, you know, or something. But you know, but but before that point, for her to be with a man, that was the proof.

[00:48:37]>> Well, actually, you made a good point there. I mean, it's always said that men cheat more than women, but do the math.

[00:48:42]I mean, how can how can that happen? You know, they're they're unless they're cheating with other men. I mean, what do they they're cheating with women, so I mean, there kind of has to be half and half. But the women, I think, just more often get away with it. But that's also why like um there's more stigma against women. There was more stigma against female infidelity because there's more risk and also because for men, you know, getting sex is a bigger deal. And I guess that's what to bring it back a bit. That's what the manur is trying to say. Like again, I I don't like the way it's being framed. I think it's horrible. It's chauvinistic. It's a horrible barbaric, you know, example of masculinity. But I do understand the logic. I get it. If you go back to very primal instinct, dating coaches, right?

[00:49:29]No single dating coach for women would tell a woman, "This is how you sleep with 10 guys in one week." Nobody's going to tell women how to do that. It's all about how to get a ring, how to get married, how to get him to commit.

[00:49:41]That's what dating coaches say over and over again. Whereas for men, dating coaches will say how to pick up women, how to sleep with women, you know, because we are different. That's why we have different dating strategies.

[00:49:53]There's no such thing as a pickup artist for a woman because there's no woman out there who thinks, "How do I get more men in bed, you know?"

[00:50:01]>> She doesn't have to.

[00:50:03]>> That's right. You don't have to usually.

[00:50:05]I mean, right. I mean, >> that's Yeah. There's Okay, there's an old joke. All right. So, two guys become 18 at the same day. They go, "Oh, wow.

[00:50:16]This will be great. Now we can finally go down to Joe's and have a beer." And one says the other. "Oh, forget about Joe's. I heard about a place where you can go and you can drink all night for free and you always end up getting laid.

[00:50:28]The guy says, "What? You get you drink for free and you always end up getting laid? That's incredible. What? It's astounding. Uh, how'd you hear about this place?" And the guy goes, "Well, my sister told me about it."

[00:50:40]>> I would have thought it would have to be a gay ball.

[00:50:43]>> So, get you get the joke, right? I mean, you could just picture. All right. Yeah, >> that's that's you know it's always been known that you know if you take it down to the biological floor uh women possess the greater uh reproductive uh resource. It's it's it's it's endemic in in nature.

[00:51:07]Um, it's it's the male of the species that the peacock that grows all this secondary sexual characteristic because it does so because the the female judges on that basis, you know, that's why the male fiddler crab has one claw that's enormous because that uses that to attract the females and uh and so on.

[00:51:29]It's it's it's pretty basic in nature that that males u do what it takes to uh get laid. And uh >> see I think a lot of this man stuff is about that though. It's about men trying to get laid to flaunt other men like look at how successful I am. I have all these pretty girls cuz LIKE WHAT'S THE POINT OF having cars and houses are like they're like peacocks in a way. They've grown >> but that is the con that they're playing. They are playing a con on other men where they're saying, "Hey, look at me. I can sleep with three or four or 10 women. I sleep with two. This is how you get laid. You just need to buy my advice. Pay me for advice and I will tell you how to get laid." But it's a con because how we get laid is by paying women with the money that the guys gave them. So you are paying for him to get laid. He's not He doesn't have any real advice. His advice, >> right? So, who's playing whose game out there, right?

[00:52:27]>> Exactly. It's a Ponzi scheme. You are paying this guy to tell you how to get laid. He doesn't know how to get laid.

[00:52:33]He's literally paying a woman to get laid. You could just go to a prostitute with the money that you have instead of paying him. And then you'd get laid in the same exact way that he gets laid.

[00:52:43]That's right. He pays a woman to get laid. He has no idea how to actually get laid. So, it's a con, you know, >> and he goes to the gym every day. He spends like half his life at the gym pumping in iron, you know. So, >> and and still at the end of the day, he needs to pay a woman to get laid.

[00:53:03]>> That's true.

[00:53:04]>> Even with all these muscles, he still has to pay for >> By the way, can I just point out that we've once again achieved the green, purple, male, female split on our screens, >> have we?

[00:53:17]>> Yeah.

[00:53:18]>> Yes.

[00:53:21]I have like >> to wear purple next purple in your background there a little bit.

[00:53:27]>> The male half is green, the female half is purple. We got to make that has to be a rule from that one. We have to do that. That has to be the thing.

[00:53:34]>> I mean, I have like purple, red, leopard print, black. I just rotate them pink.

[00:53:41]>> This is this shirt here.

[00:53:43]That's why I wear it.

[00:53:47]So from now on, it's a rule. the green purple thing is is set in stone.

[00:53:52]>> I mean to be honest though I think people after a while people just end up looking the same because like I I can't even remember what clothes you guys like what change of clothes you guys have worn. You probably think I look exactly the same every week too. I put this in my hair started doing that again. But yeah.

[00:54:10]Yeah. Anyway, so to dial it back a bit.

[00:54:13]I mean we've covered a lot of good ground. Um, I think that, you know, there's been so much covered. I mean, I was making a few notes, but I was just trying to follow the conversation because it's very interesting. It seems like we've got a kind of agreement that the manosphere documentary on the whole was horrible. And the manosphere itself is not representative of men's rights activism or anti-feminism or gender equalism. The manosphere represents the kind of worst kind of, you know, misogynistic, chauvinistic, arrogant men who were very, very much just in it for their money and just in it to, you know, have generate Ponzi schemes and basically scam people. So, that seems to be what we've agreed on. I think that's a pretty um Yeah, that's that's that's pretty legit to me. I mean, yeah, >> you've just inspired um my next video because you just made me realize something. There are two different kinds of anti-feminism, anti-feminists.

[00:55:13]>> There's the kind of anti-feminism that we are, which we are against Miss Sandry. We're against feminists with double standards. We're against feminists who hate men. But there's a second kind of anti-feminism that we actually disagree with, and that's the anti-feminism of the fresh and fits.

[00:55:31]They're against women's education.

[00:55:33]They're against women's independence.

[00:55:35]They're both against feminism, but for different reasons. and for in fact opposite reasons. So I would in fact say that >> I almost sympathize with feminists in their criticism of the other kind of anti-feminism. That makes sense.

[00:55:52]>> Yeah, I get that. Sure.

[00:55:56]>> I just fairness. I mean I'm I'm I'm anti-feminist because I I'm pro fairness. I'm pro balance. I'm pro uh real equality. But those those men who are against uh feminism because they're against women being educated and that kind of that's that's a whole different thing that I have no no relationship with them at all except to take a stand against them.

[00:56:21]>> Yeah. I have no sympathy for feminists.

[00:56:23]I would say the equivalent though would be like there's a different types of feminists. Like I would say the two main types of feminists are radical feminists and liberal feminists. And then you can say intersectional feminists who I would say are an offshoot of radical feminists. But you have the feminists who basically say we should dismantle the patriarchy. And then the feminists who say that we just want equal rights to men. I mean liberal cuz I was a liberal feminist as a teenager. And unfortunately liberal feminism still has this idea, you know, there's still the idea of patriarchy and this idea that we need to gain equal rights. And I would say we already pretty much have equal rights and we've always had some kind of equality in different ways. It's just showed differently. It's not we haven't had unisex equality. We've had complimentarianism. Yeah.

[00:57:07]>> But yeah, you know, I I don't know. I mean, because Jana earlier said something about how, you know, it's not feminism prostitution. The radical feminists are very anti-prostitution whereas liberal feminists tend to be prostitution. In my experience as well, most feminists at some point tend to veer off towards like radical or intersectional feminism. Like someone might start off as a feminist saying, I just believe in equality, but they tend to veer off towards like the more extreme ends of feminism. That's my experience of talking to feminists. I find that there's no there's no there's no having any kind of rational conversation with any kind of feminist, but maybe that's something to see for a later date. We'll see how that pans out.

[00:57:50]>> Sounds good.

[00:57:52]>> Okay, so thank you ladies and gentlemen for tuning in today. If anyone has any final thoughts, please let me know on this chat. Really enjoyed it.

[00:58:04]Quiet. Okay, cool. So, I think this is a good place to end. So, this is the Rational Female podcast and I will be live again on Friday with a new guest called Magpie. and yeah, very much looking forward to having him on. Uh, thank you everyone for watching and my next recorded video will be uploaded probably tomorrow or Thursday. Thank you everybody and thanks for tuning in.

[00:58:31]Goodbye.