Friendship Breakups Suck! Finding Community in ENM with Arielle Zadok

Añadido: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]Do it an actual apology and not like I'm sorry you feel that way.

[00:00:03]>> THAT IS NOT AN APOLOGY.

[00:00:05]>> THAT IS NOT AN APOLOGY. [laughter] I'm sorry you feel like that means a [ __ ] nothing.

[00:00:09]>> Yeah, it means like oh, if that's how you want to take it. Like that's not an apology. An apology would be like, I'm sorry that um let's say I spilled your drink.

[00:00:20]>> Yeah, I'm just going to say like I spilled your drink, right? I'm so sorry that I spilled your drink all over your white shirt. I know that that really impacted how you showed up on the podcast today and I was clumsy and I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to do that and I I realized that it had an impact on the show and how you were able to show up. I'm I'm really sorry for that.

[00:00:37]>> [music] >> All right, I am excited. I have a friend and special guest on today and we are going to be talking about building a community in the lifestyle or getting introduced, making friends. How do you find that? I get so many questions in my DMs and people asking me like, how do I find a community? How do I find lifestyle people? How do I find play parties to go to that are good? So, we're going to be answering all those questions and then we're also going to be talking about friendships and friendship breakups and how they can sometimes affect you deeply and I don't know, we're just going to getting we're going to get into the tea. So, I have Ariel on today and I'm really excited to explore with her. Go ahead and introduce yourself to my audience. Hello everybody. My name is Ariel Zadok. I am a producer, intimacy coordinator and sexologist and I'm the host of the show Birds and Bees Don't [ __ ] Yes.

[00:01:37]>> I'm also a consent director for play parties. So, that's maybe relevant here.

[00:01:40]>> [laughter] >> Yes, very relevant for here and I've been on her podcast. So, go check out some of her episodes and how did you get into this work?

[00:01:52]Woo, how much time we have? Um short enough. Yeah, let's see this this work by which work because there's so many different hats that I wear within sex and sexuality. So different hats have different pathways. Yeah, that is a good clarifying question. I would say anything involving sex like intimacy coordinator, consent, like what kind of drove you to this path, I guess.

[00:02:16]>> Yeah, I think a lot of us start young for lack of a better term. I was certainly that kid that was watching real sex when I was young under the blankets trying to hide listening to Dr. Ruth. So a lot of those fundamental shows like the very few pieces of content that existed in the late 80s, early 90s. I was way too young to be watching but I was watching and listening and paying attention and I just found it all fascinating and it wasn't until later in my life that it really became more of a part of the work that I do. It was always just kind of a separate interest always reading books listening. There weren't really podcasts at the time but the radio shows. Yeah.

[00:02:56]>> Yeah, back in my day it was just the radio.

[00:02:58]>> [laughter] >> Yes. But I was listening, right? And um it started to pivot. I would say actually intimacy coordinating was before even coaching and sex education for me and this was way before there even were intimacy coordinators. Okay. I as I mentioned I'm a producer. I'm also an assistant director and so my work in sex and sexuality and intimacy coordinating really started from doing that work when we were navigating sex scenes, brothel scenes, nudity, all sorts of vulnerable pieces of of work that the actors before intimacy coordinators didn't have any support for. So some of us were just stepping up to the plate. That included mostly hair, makeup, costumes but sometimes it was assistant directors as well. Mhm. And so I was just doing that work and then I a few years after that started I became a holistic health coach. So that kind of opened up the pathway into coaching and healing and holistic wellness and how the body works which intrinsically has to do with hormones and sex and sexuality and things coming in and going out all of that and eventually got certifications, multiple certifications in sex education and intimacy coordinating. So it's like it's been it's been my whole life really.

[00:04:12]It's like all around encompassing sexuality and intimacy. I love that.

[00:04:17]Yeah.

[00:04:18]>> Kind of how mine is too. It's kind of like going in different areas and now I'm like UGC creator or promoter like doing multiple things. So I love that.

[00:04:28]Okay, so one of the biggest questions that I get in my DMs is how do I find a community in the lifestyle? And the lifestyle I'm talking about is more open-minded people, people that go to play parties, swingers, polyamorous. How do people find a community when let's just say you started over in a new city, what would you do? Yeah, I think we need to back up completely and stop worrying about jumping into lifestyle this that and the other thing and really put yourself in a position of moving to a new city. I've lived in new cities, I've lived in new countries, I've had to start over so many times and you find your community by going and engaging in things that you enjoy. So if the things that you enjoy are sex, sexuality, lifestyle, kink, go to burlesque shows. Kinky people are there.

[00:05:20]Go to podcast live podcast shows. Kinky people are there. Go to something that's called munches and you can find those if you look up munches in your area.

[00:05:31]Munches are get-togethers for kinky people. There's no play there, there's no sex, but there are people there are just meetings and outings and group events for people who are into those sort of things so that you can start to meet different people. So really so many people are used to living in their same hometown. Maybe they move to a new city once, but we're not really in that mindset of oh, I have to go out into the world and find things that I like to do and then I'll find people who also like to do those things. There are a lot of vanilla sex events out there, so go seek them out. Go to workshops, go to live podcast recordings, go to burlesque shows like I mentioned. That's a great place to meet people. Really great community there. Um go to kinky comedy.

[00:06:17]You're going to find kinky people there if you're in LA or San Diego or now New York. Yeah.

[00:06:22]I'm just plugging away.

[00:06:24]But you have to go out into the world and find the things that you enjoy and then you're going to start to find other people who enjoy those things, too. And you're not going to go straight to a play party necessarily and not every city has that. We are very fortunate in LA, especially New York as well. There are so many play parties out there, but a lot of people listening might be in the Midwest. They might be in the South.

[00:06:48]They might be in North Dakota where they don't have these things as much. So you really have to seek out things that are next to what it is that you want to do.

[00:06:58]So book readings as well. So really looking out, thinking about what is close to sex and sexuality? Because the sexy people are going to be there. Yeah, we show up.

[00:07:07]>> show up for those things. Yes. So that's kind of the first thing is like take the take the play party, take the kink, take all of that out of it first and get into the habit of going out first of all. We are so digital right now. Get the [ __ ] outside. Get out into the world. Meet people doing things that you like to do and then you're going to find the pathway in cuz it's not going to come out of the blue.

[00:07:30]Great. Yes. And don't worry, I will always keep asking questions so it doesn't have to be like include everything. Um okay.

[00:07:38]>> talker so I'm going to chat away.

[00:07:39][laughter] Yes. So have you tried FetLife to find community? What's been your experience there? Have you tried Feeld? What's your experience there?

[00:07:53]Have you enjoyed it? Has that worked for you?

[00:07:56]I have not done too much on FetLife.

[00:07:59]I've been on there and I know so many people that it works really well for.

[00:08:03]Um that is a great place to go. Feeld, uh they have started to do events, so that's a great place to go. Beyond is another app. I don't think Beyond is in every city, but that's another Yeah, I didn't think so. But, people in LA might be listening, so Beyond is another pathway, but again, this kind of goes back to um the idea of where are Where is like the sex-positive stuff? You have to think from the sex-positive lens, and if we're looking digitally, you can start there at any of those sex-positive dating sites, sex-positive um communities in that regard, and a lot of times they have those in-person events, because we really, again, like I'm going to push for getting in person so much, because that really is where you start to build those real relationships. You can start online, and you can continue online, but part of this is that you have to get out into the world. So, join those sites, look for events that they're posting. Um Plura is another one. Plura does sex-positive events. I don't think that they're much of a dating site. I don't know if they have like um a chat within it, but that's another site. So, again, just looking for the things that you're interested in, plus sex-positive. Yeah. I would also say if I started from the ground up, I moved to a new city, I have some tactics. So, I would get on dating apps like Feeld, and then I'm very obvious of what I'm doing. I'm looking for community in the lifestyle. You put it on your profile. And then you connect with maybe not everybody that you're just wanting to date, and then you connect with them. You're like, "Hey, what events do you go to?" You can easily see people who host events. So, even just me when I was working on the go in different cities, I would go on Field, I'd message people, I'd be like, "Oh, what events are in the community?"

[00:09:42]And then you go, you connect with people, and you put effort to meet them.

[00:09:47]You put effort to go to their events. You have to put effort to follow up with them and build a friendship and build community and not just like dates. So, I found it really easy to find community, but that's cuz I'm a pro, but Field is one. You can also look up Plush Parties for different cities, and they're all over the world.

[00:10:08]It's not as vetted, like say the ones in LA, but you're going to be able to find kinkier people, and then they might have communities. So, it's just about going out there, doing the work, and it builds with time. So, you got to be a little patient, like getting involved with them, asking, "How can I help?" I think that's a great way to build community. Yeah, absolutely. And the the key to all of this is that you have to show up. We're so used to being at home and hiding behind screens, and that's not going to serve you. You are never going to build community hiding behind a screen. You might, again, like you could have that first morsel of something. You could have that first touch point. You could have that first connection to say, "Hey, what's going on? What are some sex-positive events?" But, you have to pursue it yourself, and you have to get out there and actually go.

[00:10:56]I think a lot of us want to take the easy route with these things, and then we're frustrated that no one is inviting us anywhere. You can see this even in your own friend groups of like, "Why am I not being invited?

[00:11:08]Everyone else is here." And it's like, "Well, because you said no the last three times, so people stopped asking you." Or, you know, you don't reciprocate or or there could be so many reasons, but a huge part of this is that you have to do the work to show up digitally, state your intentions, and putting yourself out there is scary. So, calm your nervous system. What are the tools that you you to, before you get on these apps, feel in your body, feel good, feel powerful, feel the best version of yourself, and then shoot out a couple messages, and don't worry about the outcome. That's another thing, too, is that we put a lot of weight, especially when you're new somewhere or to something. We put a lot of weight into this has to work, this has to work.

[00:11:51]I'm desperate to find someone. I have to do something, and people can feel that energy. So, that's why I say it's really important to calm your nervous system before you start engaging, before you go to events. It can feel really scary, and that is something we also really need to be honest about, that yes, it's scary, but there's real beauty on the other end if you get past the fear.

[00:12:10]Awesome. Yeah. So, we we kind of have an unspoken vetting process. Do you agree?

[00:12:18]Yes, and I want to hear what you have to say about it before I agree.

[00:12:21]>> [laughter] >> What are some of these unspoken rules to get invited to a possibly a play party or a private event? What are things that we look for as leaders in the community?

[00:12:33]Ooh, yeah, I mean, it's it's so much nonverbal stuff, right? Like, you have to Are you an open person? Are you making faces when I'm introducing you to things? If I'm sneaking in a little comment here and there, I'm looking to see what your reaction is. That's what we're always doing. We don't realize that we're doing this, but if you mention multiple partners, how is that person going to react? If you mention going to a sex party or going to a play party or being in a group scene or something kinky or a scene that you were in, how is that person reacting? Because that's going to tell me whether or not, first of all, you're ready for something like this, and second of all, if you are judging it or if you're curious about it. Because if that little spark of curiosity is there, we we can go a little bit deeper. So, we're looking for those little sparks of curiosity and non-judgment. Yes. Okay, this brings me another question. What are some of the red flags to kind of see that we're like, oh, we're probably not going to invite them to a private event or another event.

[00:13:37]Woo, we got We got a lot of red flags. I mean, one of them for sure is like that immediate judgment, right? If you share something, especially if it's something vulnerable, and someone is immediately like pooh-poohing that or judging it or are bringing out their own shame and their own limiting beliefs about something, that's going to say, okay, we're going to pause here. Another big one is we don't talk about this, but disassociation. So, some people we So, we have our fear responses, right?

[00:14:03]Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

[00:14:05]And when we're having these conversations, if we're noticing that somebody is starting to disassociate, look away, closed body language, physically move back, that's going to tell me, oh, you're uncomfortable with this. This is not going to go further.

[00:14:20]We don't really talk about that as much.

[00:14:22]Ooh, okay, so that's a really good one that I've noticed. Some people that are new to the scene, a tip is to open up is to not close your body cuz I've noticed some people in the scene and they're closing off their body because it is new, and that's fine. We understand, but it also signals you're closed and you're uncomfortable, and then people aren't going to approach you as much. People aren't going to be It's just going to be natural. So, try to, even if you are uncomfortable, open up your posture. I love that. So important. And then couples, that's one to think of is to be not just about sex. I would say communicate, not just be looking for people to hook up with you, but building connection.

[00:15:09]>> I want to add to that. Not just looking for a woman to hook up with you.

[00:15:13]A big red flag, I'm going to tell you this right now for a lot of people in the community, is when a couple comes in and they're only willing to play with a woman, and they won't even like play next to a man or anything like that. And listen, everyone is completely open. You can do whatever you want. Your sexuality is your sexuality, and what you feel comfortable with is what you feel comfortable with. But I Maybe you have, too. I have had many many many conversations with people in the lifestyle that they will absolutely not play with a person or a couple that's like, "Yeah, we play, but only with women and only together." Like that can And And if that's a stepping stone for you, perfectly fine. But also know that that is going to be a hard no for a lot of people in the lifestyle because it's not always feeling that authentic to connection and really what it means to be in community in this lifestyle. And the other thing I want to make sure that we say is a red flag is when someone is constantly talking over someone else. If there's a couple and there's one person that's constantly talking over the other person, um if we notice any sort of boundary pushing or boundary um non-acceptance. So if I'm If I'm [clears throat] saying I don't want to talk about something, and then you're like, "Oh, but come on. Oh, but tell me." But it's a sign of disrespect >> Yeah. for the other partner. So I think that's really important that both people are respected, both of their boundaries are respected, both of their desires are respected. And then to bounce off of what you said before is yes, you can come and you can You can come and not even play.

[00:16:51]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:16:52]>> You can come with your partner, and those can be your boundaries, but then still be open to other people. Like don't be against making a connection with a guy and you're a guy, as a friend, as community. Like try to keep it open, and yeah, I think that's very important.

[00:17:09]Thanks for touching on that.

[00:17:10]>> Well, men need other men. They need strong male friendships. And the friendships that I have seen blossom in this community between men have been so beautiful and so powerful and they help each other. It is not the same as female friendships and women in community. It's a lot easier for us. It is an undeniable fact that it is harder for men to make friends. So, the lifestyle offers a beautiful pathway for you to find healthy male friendships and connection and really explore intimacy in a non-sexual way, but with people who are not afraid to hug you and say, "I love you, man." Yeah, I love that.

[00:17:51]>> share things, who can talk about the hard stuff.

[00:17:54]>> Yeah, I love how it is getting better.

[00:17:57]Do you think it's getting better? Like guys, go compliment another guy. There's some reels and Instagram, TikToks, whatever that promote this and I love seeing it because guys, they get so happy and they like blush and it's very cute. I love seeing it. So, do it. Get a little uncomfortable. You might make a guy smile and it doesn't mean you're [ __ ] flirting with him.

[00:18:20]>> No, but men need softness. They need like intimacy is not sexual. Yeah. Sex is one small form of intimacy, but there are so many ways to feel connected, to feel intimate, to feel cared for, to feel supported, to love another human being in a non-sexual way and it's really, really lovely that the lifestyle for straight men, they don't it has nothing to do with them wanting to play with other men, but I have seen so many people just find themselves, specifically men. I have seen so many men find themselves in these communities because they've been able to finally connect with other men in a way that outside of the lifestyle we're just not seeing in the same light, unfortunately. Not that it doesn't happen outside of lifestyle, but it is a lot harder. Yeah, let's promote that.

[00:19:07]Let's improve this. It's good for men to talk with other men for help.

[00:19:13]>> Share notes. We can't be teaching y'all everything. Yeah, [laughter] share notes. I love that.

[00:19:18]>> share notes, go to workshops together.

[00:19:19]Yes.

[00:19:20]>> Listen to this show together. Yes, 100%.

[00:19:23]And do you think in these communities or paid communities that it could be directed and led by one person or does that turn more into a cult?

[00:19:33]Ooh, that line is [laughter] so thin.

[00:19:37]Um, you know, I think when it comes to community the essence of a healthy community is that it is not one person.

[00:19:47]If it's one person and they are in charge of everything, especially when it comes to sex and sexuality red flag. I agree.

[00:19:57]>> Immediate red flag. Because you need the checks and balances, you need the checks and balances, right?

[00:20:01]Like you need other people to be like holding them accountable. Exactly.

[00:20:06]Exactly.

[00:20:06]>> That's the biggest thing is holding the person in leadership accountable.

[00:20:10]>> Yeah. Because if there's all these rules and then they're not accountable for them their rules, they're going to push the boundaries because that is in our nature as humans.

[00:20:17]>> Yeah. It just is. And so if you're getting away with everything, get away away with everything, you're going to keep pushing it. And especially like sex-based communities, if it's a male at the top it could definitely be adding too much to their ego.

[00:20:32]>> Oh yeah, I mean there's power dynamics at play. It's this it's ripe for abuse when you have one person with all the power because ultimately that's what we're talking about. And in order for it to actually, in my opinion, be a community a one person leading everything is a dictatorship. That's not a community.

[00:20:48]You might be part of the people together that are not the one leading things, but one person leading everything, that ain't no community. Yeah, so that's >> That's dictatorship with a bunch of people following. And that's not good.

[00:21:00]That's not healthy. There's no one to challenge that person. You're doing everything that that person wants to do.

[00:21:04]If that's how you live want to live your life, that's great, but please look up the BITE model for uh high control groups, cuz that's ultimately what it winds up being. It turns into a high control group. Yes.

[00:21:15]And what are some of the red flags?

[00:21:18]Let's Let's actually go into not red flags, but what do we look for when we're going to a new play party, an event?

[00:21:28]What do you look for? What are kind of like, I guess, the red flags and the green flags? That's a good way to put this. I want to see how they represent themselves online. Um yes, I understand that these communities have a lot of secrecy, but if you're not showing anything, I'm like, are you even real? Like, you're not even showing the people that work there. You're not showing people who have anything to do with it. The I understand that there is a lot of desire for anonymity in these spaces, but if your website and your social media and everything you have has no real people and I can't find a single interview or anything with real people involved, I'm like, why would I want to go into a space that I can't see anyone or anything? Like, that doesn't make me feel safe. I want to know who is here. Who am I walking into? So, that's one thing. I also want to know, what are your consent practices? What do you actually have uh an incident report program? Or is it I'm going to tell the one person that leads everything and then it disappears. Like, is there again, like, is there any accountability here? Would people Could they just ask?

[00:22:41]Ask the leader, ask the person on social, be like, "Hey, do you have a program or system for incident reports?"

[00:22:47]I think that's a good question. I think 100% ask them what their consent policies are and what their incident report structure is. So, what happened Who do I go to and what happens if something goes wrong? If I feel uncomfortable, who do I go to and what happens next?

[00:23:01]I think that's very important.

[00:23:03]>> Yeah. And then for me, I'm very inclusive. I like >> Yeah.

[00:23:08]different diversity, different lifestyles, different sexuality personally.

[00:23:15]>> Mhm. So, I look for that in the advertisements. Yeah. I look for that in who's attending. And let's just say they're very anonymous, then that's where you put it in the marketing. Yeah.

[00:23:24]sure there's different cultures, different colors, different races in the advert tising. Yeah. And I'm sorry, um especially with play parties, even in LA, it's still not the most diverse.

[00:23:39]>> Agreed.

[00:23:40]>> It's a lot of white a lot of white people, a lot of white people. I'm a white person and there's a lot of white people. So, if it's like 99% white, if you're thinking about a party, and I want people to think about this, I'll go to parties sometimes and call them out on this. I'll be like, why is there no black people? Why is there like three black people? Why is there four Asian people in a hundred? Yeah. And they'll be Wait, they will say I'll I'll ask why is there not diversity and they'll count the three black people or Asian people, something.

[00:24:10]And I'll be like, that's 3%. Yeah. That is not diverse. So, I'm calling people out right now, is that that's not diverse.

[00:24:19]You need to like mix it up. Yeah. And and most of these parties are heteronormative. Yeah. They're cis, they're heteronormative, they're real white, they're real rich. Um you really and that's not to say that there are not some incredible communities for queer people, for BIPOC people, for like all sorts of different people, but there is absolutely an issue with these parties primarily being for rich, cis, straight people and some bi women.

[00:24:53]Yeah. So, >> Yeah. that is a problem that still needs to be solving but I know people that run women only events, queer only events, trans only events, Bipoc events. So again, it's so much about reaching out to people, doing your homework, researching, asking questions, looking at their marketing and digging into what their community actually looks like and who who are they supporting and how are they speaking about different people too. I also look for what is how are you speaking about all of this stuff? Are you speaking from a perspective of a cis straight person or are you speaking from the perspective of different people have different bodies and we do different things with those different bodies. Yeah. I I think that's important. And then just kind of calling com- communities out is it doesn't happen naturally to be diverse. Yeah, you have to try.

[00:25:46]>> up. You actually have to go out because that's what another thing I hear from the leaders is we have to put effort.

[00:25:53]It's in the marketing. You're diversifying the marketing. It's going out and putting extra effort into different communities because if you are just used to hanging out with your five white people that look like you then you need to go put an effort to hey, this person over there, they're a little bit different like than me. Let's put effort in hang out with them and introduce them into this because if there's one diverse person going to 99% white people, they're going to feel uncomfortable. They're not going to want to come back. So that's when you got to put the effort. You make them feel included. This is how we create change and it is important like we're not we all don't want the same type. We're all different.

[00:26:35]>> Yeah. Like shape sizes, like we all are different. That's why there's so many different porn. And I'm glad that you bring up shape as well because there is very much a problem with people's shape in these communities.

[00:26:49]Um all bodies are beautiful. Mhm. All bodies deserve these spaces. So, when we are looking at parties that are just this, you know, tight, beautiful bodied, young, 20-something-year-old women, Mhm. and old men, cuz that's what it usually winds up being, like that's a problem.

[00:27:07]That is not a safe space that a lot that I would not feel safe in that space, and I have a body like that, but I'm I'm not safe in that space because other people are not safe in that space. Yeah. So, that's a really valid thing, and if you are a party leader or want to be or want to build a community, go out and seek other people who are leading in these spaces. There are people who can come in and partner with you, and maybe do a partner event with someone. Um you have to seek out different communities. So, you can't just like, "Oh, but I I put it in my marketing. I put it there." Like, no one's going to find it. The algorithm You're not [laughter] on anybody's algorithm, okay?

[00:27:45]So, it really is important that we're looking to other communities and collaborating with people and bringing people in.

[00:27:51]>> Collaborating is a big one. Absolutely.

[00:27:53]>> that. Yeah. Okay, we're going to dive in a little bit to friendships. So, I have built amazing friendships. I've put effort into amazing friendships because I know it takes work, and I know it's important. But, I've also had friendship breakups. Yeah. And sometimes I feel like they hurt worse.

[00:28:12]Have you experienced this, and what are your thoughts on it? I have experienced friendship breakups. I think any any woman of my age has.

[00:28:21]Um we don't talk about them enough. I'm I love that you wanted to talk about this today because they often times hurt so much more than a romantic breakup because besides the fact that there's no road map for it, you're often having intimacy with that person on such a deeper level than the person that you're having sex with.

[00:28:44]Yeah. And >> deep getting to know you, Putting effort and time.

[00:28:50]>> like your partner knows your soul, sure, yes. Depending on the type of relationship that you have, but your friends, your best friends.

[00:28:57]>> Yeah. They know you on a level that you don't even know yourself. So, when those relationships fracture, it is so incredibly hard, but we don't give it the same attention that we give a romantic breakup because we put so much emphasis on romantic relationships in our lives, and we this also goes back to men, right? Like, we're not putting the same emphasis on friendships.

[00:29:21]Breakups for I think for women, we probably do put enough emphasis on like women friendships and women empowerment, things like that. So, I think when it comes to women, and this is a very binary thing I'm saying right now, um but when it comes to women, it's more we need more attention on the breakups. When it comes to men, we need more attention on them having the friends at all. Yes, yes, and I don't know enough about um trans and non-binary friendships and where the attention lies to speak on that, but I'm sure that there are also different areas within those types of connections, like within those communities, that we can be focusing on a little bit more for them as well. I think it would be a little bit more open just naturally because you're dealing with someone that has dove into both dynamics of masculine and feminine energy.

[00:30:08]>> Mhm. Which when you when you really dive into both, you are more open usually. I mean, I'm very masculine and feminine. I have both sides to me. We all do. So, like when you can tap into both, you will have that connection and be able to dive deeper. And I don't know, I'd love to share like Have you had one recently?

[00:30:30]Um like a breakup, and how did you deal with it? Was it in the community, and then you had to like keep seeing them?

[00:30:36]No, it was >> No. Yeah, yeah, that is really nice.

[00:30:40]Uh great Have I I'm trying to think of anything in the community? I don't think so. I have No, not not friendship-wise.

[00:30:48]I have had a recent friendship breakup, and it was it was the kind of thing that um this person kind of came out of nowhere and said some things that were like completely unfactual because I looked I'm I have a lot of Virgo placements. I I looked up the facts >> [laughter] >> and I was like, wait, am I out of my mind or like what's going on here? Um and so uh I was able to kind of look at what the truth cuz I knew what the truth was, but then I'm like feedback is always welcome. Let me take a look at our interactions over the last 6 months to a year and see if this is actually true. And I was like, oh, this is so far from reality and stitched into the breath of of what this person was saying was some seriously anti-Semitic [ __ ] So I was like, okay.

[00:31:33]And I did not reply to that. I got like this weird-ass text out of nowhere. I didn't reply to that because I was like, this is clearly a person who is choosing to change reality cuz I'm looking at reality, not just in my memory, but like what is on the paper.

[00:31:47]It's [clears throat] not even safe for me to respond to something like this because they have chosen a different reality. And so to protect myself, I'm not going to engage because no good is going to come from engaging. I'm just accepting the fact that this is gone.

[00:32:02]This person has chosen this path. They are choosing to see reality as something so completely off from what it is, and I don't say that again. I'm not saying that from memory. I'm saying that from like, oh no, I literally looked at the data.

[00:32:14]Um and to me that's just like this is not safe. It is not safe for me to engage. There's not a reason for me to engage cuz this person has already made up their mind. I think that is an extreme example and the only example like that I've ever had in my life. Otherwise, [snorts] it's really just come from like fading away, you know?

[00:32:33]>> Fading away, not nurturing, maybe change. I think change.

[00:32:37]>> Yeah. I think that's kind of normal and that's okay when those friendships fade away. It still hurts. Like I've definitely had friendships in like Utah that faded away just through change and just were not as much of a priority.

[00:32:49]We're in different places. It still hurts here and there. But like it's a little bit softer. Whereas like I've had only I think like two big friendship breakups and it was through One of the biggest one was through through lack of accountability and lack of empathy. Yeah.

[00:33:09]>> couldn't really understand where I was coming from and empathize and then apologize and own why you're apologizing. Do an actual apology.

[00:33:21]>> not like I'm sorry you feel that way.

[00:33:23]THAT IS NOT AN APOLOGY.

[00:33:24]>> THAT IS NOT AN APOLOGY.

[00:33:26]I'm sorry you feel like that means a [ __ ] nothing.

[00:33:28]>> It means like oh if that's how you want to take it. Like that's not an apology.

[00:33:33]An apology would be like I'm sorry that um let's say I spilled your drink. Yeah.

[00:33:39]Like I'm just going to say like I spilled your drink, right? I'm so sorry that I spilled your drink all over your white shirt. I know that that really impacted how you showed up on the podcast today and I was clumsy and I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to do that and I I realize that it had an impact on the show and how you were able to show up. I'm I'm really sorry for that. And then uh recovery. Yeah. So kind of like saying So I love you to share what those things are. So she stated it.

[00:34:04]>> Mhm. She stated what went wrong.

[00:34:05]>> Yep. How it affected the person. Mhm. Um yeah, do you want to I I don't have it at the top of my head. I could look it up, but >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:14]>> So the next step in that is to say what can I do to support you right now? Yes.

[00:34:19]What can I do to make this better? How can I support you?

[00:34:22]Do you Do you want me to go grab a shirt for you? Do you want me to book another time? Like how how can I make this better? Because I recognize that this is on me. So it's on me to make this better. Yeah. So, state it. State the issue.

[00:34:36]>> Mhm. State how it affected them. State that you're taking accountability.

[00:34:41]>> Yeah, own it.

[00:34:42]>> And then the recovery. So, those that is how you do an apology. And it's not just getting defensive. And so, I'd like to talk about this a little bit.

[00:34:50]>> Yeah, let's go.

[00:34:51]>> Because sometimes you want to share why you did it. We get it.

[00:34:55]>> Yeah. We get it. This is a low I'm sorry you don't understand. That comes off as I would love to hear if you agree with this. Just being defensive. And then if you say I'm sorry and this is why this happened, blah blah blah blah blah, it comes off as you're just defensing it and it literally cancels out the apology. 100% yes. And so, we need to focus Yeah, yes and. We need to focus on impact over intention. When we mess up, our inclination is to go, I didn't mean to. This is why I did it. I did my That wasn't my intention, blah blah blah blah blah. I don't give a [ __ ] >> Yeah, we don't give a [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse.

[00:35:35]>> over intention. You can So, intention is what we do going into something, right?

[00:35:40]Like, I am going to move through this This is going to be a difficult thing I'm going into and I'm going to do everything I can to keep it together, right? That's the intention. I am going to hold it together and not act out and not act a fool. I'm not going to run my mouth as I normally do or whatever it is, right? That's your intention.

[00:35:57]Intentions happen before. Mhm.

[00:36:00]The impact is what we're looking at after. Mhm. It doesn't matter what your intention was. What matters is the impact of your actions on that person.

[00:36:13]Yep. So, you can you can have the absolute best intentions and that's great. Yeah. But your actions still could have had a harmful impact. And so, at that point when we're after something, we're not looking at What was the intention going in. I don't care because what happened was hurt and we need to repair for that hurt and we need to own that like, yeah, maybe I did intend to move through it better, but I I lashed out anyway. I flopped. Yeah, I flopped it. And it's okay, we're all going to flop things. I flop things, you flop things, you flop things. That is what being a human is, but where we really flop is the inability to take accountability for our actions and the impact that our actions have and then move towards repair. A lot of us don't want to do the repair. The repair is so important and that's where my best friendships have been. Is like you can grow deeper in these relationships when you seek repair, you grow more trust for relationships, for friendships. I've had I remember a fight with one of my very close friends over 8 years and we had like a fight in Tulum and I was honestly, I was just like I wanted more attention and front connection with her when we were out. And then when we communicated and I felt kind of like silly cuz she was a friend.

[00:37:30]>> Mhm. I was like wanting, you know, kind of feels like you're in a relationship.

[00:37:34]But then she recovered and she she heard me and that she apologized and then she seek recovery and then I apologized for me being like a little like Aries and fiery. Cuz I was like I'm sorry, I was just in my head and I was getting a little like butt hurt. So then we got closer. Mhm. And I was like our one fight in like 8 years. Yeah.

[00:37:56]>> it we got closer. So sometimes it's just understanding the other person and not judging them on how you would react because we're all [ __ ] different.

[00:38:04]>> Yeah. And we're also different.

[00:38:05]>> There's something else in there that I think is really important to touch on with friendships and messing up is sometimes our action our our reactions are way bigger than they need to be and we need to own that, too. We need to understand where things are coming from. So I kind of think of it as like one of those little Italian layer cakes where you have the different colors. So, the first layer is your knee-jerk reaction. When something happens, you've got that primal instinct, you've got that hit to your nervous system, you have that immediate like uh whatever that uh is, whether it's anger, sadness, um distraught, confusion, whatever. We have that initial reaction.

[00:38:43]The bottom layer, the nice little graham cracker crust or whatever, that is going to be your stories, your past experiences with that person, your familial history, your personal history.

[00:38:55]That's going to be all of those layers of foundation that that dictate how you feel about something.

[00:39:02]>> Yeah. So, when you can understand, okay, this was just the knee-jerk reaction, okay? We did that, right? This is This is what my my primal brain was meant to do. Mhm. Don't need that anymore. Mhm.

[00:39:13]These are all the stories and all of my beliefs and all of the past experiences.

[00:39:18]Okay, that's not what's happening here.

[00:39:20]This is not what's in the present. And in the middle, you have this beautiful layer of what is actually happening. And that's what we need to look at. So, we need to give ourselves enough time to process that knee-jerk reaction, to understand our foundation, and to get to that piece of what's actually going on, so that we can speak to that piece when we are seeking repair with someone, or when we're seeking to just express how we were hurt and why we were hurt. Yeah.

[00:39:48]And I think that's a good thing to mention, too, is to regulate, to take space. Yeah. To not keep being in those quick responses, because that's where you burn down bridges. That's where you say things that you regret in the moment. And you got to take accountability for those if you do.

[00:40:04]>> Yeah.

[00:40:04]>> And be like, I did not mean those. I was in my reaction. I did overreact. You got to take accountability. I think my biggest two I had two big friendship breakups, and the reasons why we never repaired is because they wouldn't take accountability and they wanted to just move on. I wasn't moved on. My feelings weren't recovered. I didn't trust them.

[00:40:28]There was no repair.

[00:40:30]And they didn't They seemed to be both of them actually said a similar thing was can we move on?

[00:40:36]Yeah, and that's Can we just I don't want to talk about this. Can we just move on? And I was like, no. No, because there was no repair. I didn't feel the apology. There was no accountability and feelings restored.

[00:40:49]>> Yeah, and that's a different level of emotional intelligence. Not everyone is as emotionally intelligent as other people because we're not taught any of this in schools. No one was taught this, so don't beat yourself up. Yeah. We know this because we have gone through programs to teach us this stuff, and we share it with the world so that you don't have to suffer in the same way.

[00:41:10]But, it's important to note that we're not taught these skills, and not everyone is going to be at that same level. So, sometimes someone who can't engage with you, it's not because they don't want to engage with you, it's because they just don't have the capacity to.

[00:41:23]They don't have the skill set yet. They haven't built it up, and maybe they're just not even ready to look at that stuff yet. And the other thing I want to note also is that we're talking about not going down the spiral when you're activated. When you're activated, it's really important to know that your cognitive brain is offline. It is not working. You are quite biologically you are not capable of making good decisions in that moment, and that's why it is so important for you to step away when you're fighting. Two people yelling at each other, that's two amygdalas, okay?

[00:41:56]Amygdalas don't think.

[00:41:57]>> [laughter] >> They don't have that capacity. So, we need to say, you know what?

[00:42:01]Things have escalated right now. We need to back away. Let's take a pause on this. Let's go do something else, and let's meet up again tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m.

[00:42:11]Find a time, commit to a new time, step away. There is so much power in stepping away and letting each of your phones turn it off. Turn it off. Yeah. And settle yourself because you're you literally are incapable of making good decisions.

[00:42:24]>> And maybe delete the messages before they see them. Like I don't know. Like I Write things in [laughter] your notes APP, OKAY? WHEN YOU ARE when you're activated, go to your notes app, go to your best friend who you're not fighting with and say, "Let me just get this out.

[00:42:37]Can you read this Can you read this before I send this and give me your feedback? Like I need to make sure that I am capable of showing up in the best way that I can because otherwise, you're going to have a lot more to have to repair." Yeah. It's just go vent it out to ChatGPT. Go vent it out. Res- like ask for feedback.

[00:42:55]>> Mhm. Like uh Real quick, ChatGPT, don't have them just What's the word? Validate you. Like have them challenge you.

[00:43:05]>> ChatGPT.

[00:43:06]Don't go to AI. Go to an actual human or just write it in your notes to get it out of your system. I I agree with that and I also disagree. Both. Because I trained my ChatGPT to call me out to the point where sometimes I'm like picking an outfit. It's like, "Are you sure about that?" Just kidding. Like >> Yeah, but there's we can't rely on that because now we're not teaching ourselves to actually process this stuff. Like there are studies that show that when you're leaning on AI, you are you're you're literally changing your brain. So please don't go to AI when you're activated. See every now and then, whatever, touch base, fine.

[00:43:38]If you're activated and you're actually going through something, just write it in your notes. The The thing is about getting it out, it's not about having a chatbot tell you, "You're amazing." Or honestly Honestly, you're so right. Like what?

[00:43:51]Get out of here. If your chat No, that's not going to help you. Just get it out.

[00:43:55]The point is that you need to get it out of your system so that you yourself can process these things. And when we're getting it out, now we're allowing space. Get it out, take a break, write Write again, take a break, write it again, send it to a trusted friend. But it's more about getting it out of your system to the point where you're calm and your your cognitive brain is back online. Mhm.

[00:44:17]Uh, I love this discussion. This is going really well. You're perfect for this.

[00:44:21]>> [laughter] >> Oh my god, thank you.

[00:44:23]>> Yes.

[00:44:25]Um, okay, so we're going to be finishing up, but I think this is a good question to finish up. Those people in the past, do you think you could forgive them if they came to you with a a good genuine apology?

[00:44:40]And would there be restored or would it just feel better? So there's a difference between forgiveness and restoration.

[00:44:45]>> Yes, 100%.

[00:44:47]>> I forgive every single person. Every single person for every single thing and it has nothing to do with that person.

[00:44:53]It has everything to do with me. I don't even need to speak to someone to forgive them. That is really essential in all healing is to forgive people. Forgive yourself, forgive your past, forgive your parents, forgive your friends, forgive your exes, forgive everybody in your life because when we're holding on to that resentment and that anger, it literally eats you up from the inside and you do not need to engage with that person in order to find forgiveness. There are forgiveness practices. So do that. Think it's I I don't want to miss uh, mispronounce the name, but there is a Hawaiian practice. Look up Hawaiian >> Ho'oponopono. It's I mess it up every time, so I don't want to do it.

[00:45:30]Ho'oponopono, I think.

[00:45:32]>> That. I'm sorry. If I mess it up, I apologize.

[00:45:35]Um, so please go look that up and and um, that is from the Hawaiian people. I'll put it in the Yeah, put it in the chat.

[00:45:42]It's a great practice. Um, I actually like wrote a little ebook on it, too, The Art of Letting Go, because it is so important. So forgiveness is much different than repair. You can forgive and not need the repair. You can forgive and not ever see them again.

[00:45:55]Exactly. That's because the forgiveness happens in here. It doesn't happen out here. Repair happens out here.

[00:46:01]Forgiveness is in here. So, in terms of like forgiving every anyone who's ever done me wrong, yeah. You're good. You're good cuz I'm not hanging on to it. I have no reason to hang on to it. You're only going to continue to hurt me if I hang on to that. So, there's nothing that I need to hang on to.

[00:46:19]But, when it comes to repair, that doesn't mean I'm not going to I'm I'm always going to want to repair with everyone.

[00:46:23]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:46:24]>> certain things that I'm like, I understand that you've grown, I appreciate the apology, and this is just not a relationship that I wish to continue. So, there's no real need for repair, but thank you. Yeah. I hope that you can find it Whatever repair you need to do on your own, I hope that you can do that because you're not going to do it with me. Yep. And that's okay. You don't have to repair with everyone who's done you wrong. And forgiveness is powerful.

[00:46:47]I've forgave my dad without ever getting an apology years before, and then guess what? This year he apologized.

[00:46:57]And it was I already forgave him. Like, I'd already worked a lot on that, and it was the energy, it was letting go, it was opening up my heart in the resentment towards men and fathers, and It was very powerful. So, there's lots of books on this and looking into forgiveness. I would recommend it. It's It's healing, and yeah, so it's it's powerful.

[00:47:21]>> Yeah, and that It all happens within, you know? Like, someone can apologize to you, and it can be so great and thoughtful, and they can do all the steps to repair, and you're still hung holding hanging on to it and holding on to it. So, That's the word I was looking >> what, it's You got to do that work in here. So, forgiveness really comes from here, repair is on the outside. Yep.

[00:47:42]And yeah, I would I would forgive everybody, as well. But, repair, maybe not so much, but I think I don't know. I felt the need to say this is like, I would want some type of energy clearance. I would like that. I would I would enjoy that.

[00:47:58]>> Yeah. So, even if it's just a little bit of repair. Yeah, I I think for me it would depend on who because that would be me putting more energy into something that I don't feel aligned with and I'm like, I don't know that my energy like I'm I'm good. I don't know that my energy needs to go towards this. So, that's something to consider as well.

[00:48:17]Yeah, I mean as long as the healing is there it's all good, you know, don't be a dick.

[00:48:24]>> [laughter] >> Amazing. Okay, I love this episode.

[00:48:28]Thank you so much for being on and where can they find you? Instagram, your podcast. Give all the deets and we'll put the links. Yes, you can find me at Birds and Bees Don't [ __ ] Without the U everywhere because censorship is real.

[00:48:41]If you can spell my name, good luck to you. That's my Instagram and you can follow me there.

[00:48:45]But really Birds and Bees Don't [ __ ] Without the U is where you can find me everywhere. That makes it very easy and then you'll you can follow my personal account from that. Yep, we will put the details in the description. So, go check her out and thank you so much for being on my episode. This podcast was amazing.

[00:49:00]>> Thank you for having me and I just want to say that I'm so happy that you and I are friends and that we get to travel through this life together and that we get to explore so many things together from the sex positive space to the coaching space to the podcast space and I'm just so thrilled that over time we've gotten closer and closer and that you're a really trusted person in my life that I know if one of us [ __ ] up we'd work through it cuz >> Yes, we're worth it. I love [laughter] that. Thank you so Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you.

[00:49:29]>> [music]