The gray divorce phenomenon refers to the rising divorce rate among baby boomers, who are now experiencing some of the highest divorce rates despite being the generation that traditionally valued marriage. This trend is driven by multiple interconnected factors: baby boomers married much younger (often in their teens or early twenties) and grew apart as they aged; declining religious participation has reduced the social structures that traditionally supported marriage; social media has enabled reconnecting with exes and created unrealistic expectations through reality TV; women are leading divorce filings (approximately 80%) often due to feeling taken for granted and carrying disproportionate household burdens; and many are choosing to prioritize personal happiness over unhappy marriages, reflecting a broader societal shift toward individual fulfillment over traditional commitment.
Why EVERYONE Is QUITTING Marriage...Even BABY BOOMERS | CC Podcast Ep 125
Added:One of the things I think about long-term relationships also too, we have to be content with um being taken for granted to an extent.
You know, I don't I think that may be unpopular to say, but I think people have to be again and it's it's within reason, but we have to be comfortable with being taken for granted to an extent because I think that there's there's almost no room for men to take their woman for granted. But women take their men for granted all the time. All the time. And men don't men are not even a look at the face. The men men are not able to articulate it. And if they do art and if they do articulate it, it be it becomes a situation as to what do you mean? What are you talking about?
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[music] All right, welcome back to the Crucial Combo podcast. You're tuning in with your host Cojo. I got my three lovely panelists here as always. We getting it in talking about a few things. I got Yaya Bear. I got Miss Sherry Britain. I got Tony the Endor Brisco back in the building.
>> This fly keeps coming right in my face while we all.
>> It's driving me crazy, bro. It's so serious. It is.
>> It's okay. You can swat at. We ain't going to think you crazy or nothing.
>> Thank you for saying [laughter] that.
>> As soon as it lands, it's done.
>> Now, see, you got the fly swatter, you won't look as crazy. But if you just started swinging, [laughter] start looking like uh start looking like uh Trey from Boys in the Hood. Like, what's going on, Tony? [laughter] swinging at the air for no reason.
>> All right, let's get let's get into it, though. I want I wanted to talk about this because this is an interesting phenomenon. And um so I saw I saw a clip of another video um where they were talking about baby boomers, right? Baby boomers have some of the highest divorce rates now, which kind of surprised me cuz I was like, that's kind of interesting. You know, when you think about baby boomers, you know, we're generation X um just behind them. So, we kind of I kind of look think of baby boomers like our parents generation and they're the ones who are riding the ride or die and to death do its part and they're they were kind of I wouldn't say they were the last generation of marriage. I would probably say we're generation X. I would say is would probably be like the last kind of generation in my mind. But anyway, it says baby boomers are now they call that they're calling this phenomenon known as gray divorce. So um couple of different factors they're saying you know obviously people are living longer right um there's less social stigma around divorce um as they become empty nesters and many are choosing to prioritize happiness over unhappy marriages. So I want to set this up because um into a larger conversation about um you know the trend the trend of marriage right now. Look, let me say this before I land. Um, I think that, you know, everybody, we have our own experiences, right? So, anecdotally, you know, I could say I'm married, but I wouldn't say that marriage is for everybody or marriage is the beall end all. Um, but it is interesting to see the trend that's happening now as far as people are I think people are starting to look at to death do its part and they're kind of looking at it differently and have people always been unhappy and not really necessarily wanting to stay in these relationships long term and kind of looking at it like well it ain't no big deal about being divorced or you know it used to be a big stigma around it. So, I wanted to get you you all's opinion about that before we kind of get into it. So, this trend of baby boomers divorcing is interesting because it kind of correlates to somewhat to generation X, but I think it also reflects generation um millennials and Gen Z to kind of look at things now because people are starting to get married later, are not married at all, and are kind of re-evaluating the whole idea of even doing it. Um, so let's get into that. What What do y'all think?
What do y'all think about this?
>> So, it's kind of interesting that it because when you said that um you were talking about the boomers getting divorced, you know, I was totally taken back by it and not in a bad way, but just like, "Oh, wow." Cuz I had no idea.
But when you think about it, I I I can see that. Um, I think that, you know, now that I've entered the chat, like with my mother and her sisters who are boomers, you hear things. It's like I always tell them, "Get me. I shouldn't be in this chat with you all." E, you know what I'm saying? Uh, but but they are closer to us. And I think it's it's about the same. I just think that people in general I think like you said with the living longer and all that I just think that people are now if they can are refusing to be unhappy. So if they don't want to be married they don't want to be married. Like I I got married older. I got married when I was 45. So I was older when I got married and you know we've been married for 13 years. So I I mean I I get it. [clears throat] I I think that it was our first marriage, so neither one of us have been married before. Um, so like you say, it's it's circumstance, but I think a lot of it is, you know, the living longer and people just refusing to be uh unhappy and maybe acting on the advice they give younger people cuz we always give younger people, you know, think about yourself, you know, take care of you first before you get married and don't do this and don't do that. So, I think that's that's a a big part of it. Or it could be.
>> That's a great point. I'm I'm uh I'm putting that I'm lodging that point there. I'm going let everybody else rock out. But that's a good point because I want to I want to touch on that. The advice we give younger people is interesting because a lot of times the advice we give our kids or our nieces and nephews can sometimes be a little bit different than what we do. But that's a that's a great point. But >> I think that I I think uh Sher, you hit a lot of really good points there with the getting married older. And I think one of the biggest points to that is that a lot of the boomers got married young.
You know, in their generation, it was common to get married, you know, maybe in your late teens, early 20s. you know, that was what was um kind of um idealized by women then. Okay? You know, because they're they're getting married.
They're this is a 60s and 70s era, right? You know, maybe some 80s. Hey, find yourself a good husband, you know, the the evolution of women in the workforce and certain types of careers weren't quite there yet. So still the idea of finding a husband, getting with somebody or, you know, marrying your high school sweetheart or y'all known each other since, you know, first grade and kind of, you know, boom, right after high school, getting married was was was pretty common.
>> So at a certain point, you're still growing. You're still finding out who you are. And I think that a lot of people who are once they once they're reaching like the later parts of life, 40, 50, 60 years old, they've kind of learn to just adapt to the marriage in a situation and like, okay, this is just what we're doing. But over the years, and I've heard this many times from older people, that, you know, if I knew then what I knew now, I probably wouldn't have married soand so. you know, I didn't know myself or I didn't get a chance to do this, I didn't get a chance to do that. The person that they have grown up to be is different than the person that they were when they got married. And throughout the whole marriage process, when they're busy raising kids, a lot of them, especially if they're getting married before the age of 25, their brains haven't even stopped developing. They they don't they haven't really grown into their whole personality, who they are. So, by the time they they're hitting their 50s and 60s and their kids are gone, they're like, "I'm sick of this [ __ ] I'm sick of I'm sick of this person. I'm tired of waking up. I'm tired of waking up um you know, next to this person and dealing with this unhappy life. I don't need to I don't need to do this anymore." And with of course social media and the destigmatization of divorce and stuff now they're like, "Okay, well, you know what? I'm I'm getting out of this. I'm I'm getting out of this."
>> And so this is I feel like this is where this is where we're landing now where they've decided, you know what? Hey, you know what? I'm in good shape. Life is short. I'm going to continue to I'mma live my life now. You know what I mean?
I'mma live my life now. and [laughter] be done with it.
>> Why? Why you say I'm in I'm in good shape? Why you say that? [laughter] >> Well, well, I think you know I I see a lot of boomers in the gym, right? They know what you say. You know, it's like you're trying to find that that second that second uh chapter of your elder life and think, you know, life is short. What do I want to do with myself now? I gave my life to this marriage to these kids, this family. Now, what can I Now, who am I?
>> Who am I? Right. Right.
>> I I think Yaya makes some good points. I I think it's a lot going on, right? I think when you have I mean, the biggest thing right now, you know, people are really concerned about the spread of of Islam uh throughout the world. But what we're what we're facing in the United States is a decline in religious activity or religious affiliations amongst Islam and Christianity. And so I think that's one of the I think that's one of the barometers, right? When you don't have these structures or institutions that really promote healthy marriages because you know the numbers for Christians are off the freaking rails like we are.
Everybody know this already, right? So I think that's one dynamic is that when you look at marriage you associate it with faith a faith maybe not Christianity but you know Islam you you associate it with a faith and so when you have a country where young young the younger generations are turned off from religion altogether and Jew and you know the part of Israel that they consider Jewish I mean they're facing the same thing amongst young people too like they're just not buying into when they're seeing how religion has been enacted acted out. They just don't want a part of it. So, I think that's the decline in marriage. When we talk about, you know, baby boomers and we talk about Gen X, I think a lot of what is happening, it's it's kind of it's kind of like three-fold almost. One of those folds, I believe, is a lot of boomers were forced into marriage.
Let's just call that what it is. You didn't really have a lot of say back then. you just did what you were told to do and you did it. And so that was women suffering in marriages that they never wanted to be in anyway. So when the kids were gone, they was like, "Yo, deuces out of here, right?" I think the second phase of this is when you look at Gen X, it's our generation, right? When you look at Gen X falling into now this, you call it the gray area, right? That's what it's called.
>> Um the gray divorce, >> the gray divorce. He had a great divorce.
When Facebook went live within like a year, Moody Bible Institute, that I rarely listen to now because of their political rhetoric. I mean, Obama was a demon and Trump is God, but whatever.
Um, yeah. Um, what happened was they they had people calling into the show, so they dedicated a whole show. When Facebook came out, people started reconnecting. Married folks started reconnecting with their long- lost loves.
>> So you had Gen X leaving marriages then because they found their my true love was my love from high school and I know I'm 40 now, but I just I loved her back then or I loved him back then. So you literally have people hooking up with their exes on social media. So I think social media has played a massive role.
The the third thing I think that has played into this is reality TV. Like I just started because of this show. I just started watching se I ain't know they had 20 seasons of Married at First Sight. I started watching the the latest season of Married at First Sight and I'm like, this is part of the problem where now marriage is almost like a status as opposed to a coming together of two becoming one.
And when you look at the marriages that have been on display, you know, you had Yay who married a woman who was in a sex tape with another famous dude and then you know, you just you just look at marriage different. So when you look at these Hollywood marriages, that's what I call them. When you look at these Hollywood marriages as the face of marriage and relationships, what do you really have left? if Hollywood and reality TV now shape. So I think that has painted a picture that women, you don't have to settle anymore.
You don't need a guy who's got a bear belly like Mr. Endura. You need that guy who's buff like, you know, my Ghanaian brother over there on the other side of this of this microphone. You need that man that's buff, that's well polished, and that is groomed and designed. You don't have to settle for less. And so I think a lot of women have bought into this hype that oh man I I can I can get a man that makes 400,000 or 250,000. I don't need even though the average median salary in the United States for men is 64,000. I can go for this dude who's making all this money. So I think it's so many dynamics that lean into this >> and I'm I'mma land I'm I'mma land on this one piece >> so somebody else can jump in. Oh, >> I think the other piece is women are not happy because women are not being satisfied. 49% of married women orgasm.
Oh, T, you drop you dro you dropping ON WHAT IT IS, BRO.
>> You dropping Listen, you know what? I'm I'm making I'm making bullet points so we can get into it. You you hitting them.
>> You hitting them all, but go ahead. We We going to dive into all of these. I'm I'm taking notes. Go ahead.
>> Women are not being satisfied.
And when you don't have a spouse, a husband who's willing to understand your body, how it ticks, how it moves, and if you're not safe because of the fragile male ego telling you, "Hey, bro, you not doing it." Then you can you you you eat all of that. And then you get to a point WHERE YOU'RE LIKE, "YOU KNOW WHAT? I I DIDN'T TALK TO THIS SISTER. I I didn't talk to this sister. They husbands putting it down. And that just adds to the couple of things that are happening. But I think that's one of the reasons that the male ego is so fragile at times that if a woman cannot tell the dude she committed to for the rest of her life that he's not satisfying her sexually in the marriage.
>> Oh, >> for her after the kids leave, she like, "What's the purpose of me being here any longer?" And I'm >> br Come on. Come on. You come on now.
You know what? you you're hitting you're hitting so many good points cuz I actually wanted to go into all of these points. You guys all hit some really good points. I'm just like busting at the seams trying not to trying not to break talk, you know, because Okay, so there's a couple of things you guys talked about that you all brought up that I want to kind of go into depth, right? Um so I'm going to recap some of the things you guys brought up. So, one, we had a really good point about obviously we the advice we give kids are maybe a little bit I wouldn't even say different actually Sher you made a good point. The advice we are giving younger people is starting to be the advice that older people are starting to do. So, that whole think about yourself, take your time, you know, live your life, make sure you do everything you want to do. older people are starting to be like, you know what, I'm going to live my life and, you know, and make sure that I prioritize what I want for me, right? Which may not necessarily align with staying in a marriage, right? So, that's one thing. And then the other thing is that you you all brought up social media, which I thought was a great point because social media has changed. the point that you made about reconnecting with old love or could have could have should have been love, right?
And the fact that social media lets has let a lot of people, men and women alike, feel like, yo, I could do better.
[laughter] I could do I could probably do better. I have other options, right? Whether it's true or not, a lot of people buy into that. And then um yeah, the decline in religion is also a great point, Tony, as far as the tie to religion and marriage.
That's a major point. So I want to get into all of that. And then the last point was about um sex, sexual, sexual, sexual, sexual, not sexuality, but sexual activity, intimacy. These things are actually very huge points in marriage. You know what I'm saying?
because outside of financial it's it's um you know um adultery if you will right um or wanting to you know get out there and get in the streets right so let's get into so when it comes to let's say baby boomers right so again they baby boomers were you know in our minds kind of these kind of the role models but you guys brought up a lot of points there are a lot of baby boomers that got married much earlier so now the average age of marriage um I had took Looking down the stat, I believe the average age of marriage now, the median average is still around, I think 31 or something like that. Um, which was surprising to me. And um, but a lot of baby boomers, they did get married early. They were getting married at 21, 22, um, you know, right out of high school type of thing. You know what I mean?
And, um, you know, yeah, I I think honestly, you know, as a Gen Xer, I got married kind of late, too. You know what I'm saying? And um I got married in my mid-30s and um yeah, I don't know if um getting married out of high school would have worked for me. I'm pretty sure it would have ended in divorce. [laughter] I I I can say that with 99% certainty that, you know, I I I couldn't have been faithful that long. I ain't going to even lie to you. I ain't going to even hold you. But um [laughter] but but anyway, let's let's focus on the point here. So before we get into the sexual part is very interesting but I want to get into the actual religion religious aspect because I think that's interesting too how religion kind of goes has went handinhand with marriage and the decline in religion. Tony, you brought up a really good point because you do see a decline in religion all around the world, not just in America, you know. So, yeah. Yes, exactly. Religious participation has caused people to kind of be like cuz religion, religion also is one of the things that I think caused people to kind of, you know, feel like they need to get married, right? And, you know, again, I'm not saying that as a married person, I'm not saying that everyone needs to get married. I do think it's it's good in a sense um if you can ideally if you're going to raise kids and do all that, right? But it doesn't work out that way all the time for everyone, right? Um but I think that that was one of the major factors of people getting married in the past was children. And now that baby boomers are empty nesters, they're like, man, what's the point? So, it's a it's an interesting phenomenon, right? Well, twins, I think there's also a another kind of important point in there is that there's also a trend of Gen Xers and what who's after us? Gen Y, um, who are choosing not to get married.
And I think with with the the rise of more people making an overt decision not to get married and really putting that on social media and that you know and and people seeing this proudness and like I'm choosing myself. I'm choosing not to get married. I'm choosing not to have children. I just want to focus on me. And um you know being a bachelor or bachelorette you know lifelong has a lot less stigma to it. I think that that is influencing people who are married to say hey you know what it's okay for me not to be married. It's okay for me to just go head on and be single. So it's not even that they're getting out of their marriage necessarily to go be with somebody else. they're getting out of their marriage to be single and be free and not have the obligation and and and to be able to come and go and do do as they that as they want to do. I know personally a lot of people who are gen Gen Xers and Gen Yers who are saying who are choosing no I I don't even want to get married now the marriage ain't ain't all that I'm not doing that. So that I think that's also influencing the older generation, the boomers to say, you know what, I could be I could be young, single, and free, too.
>> Well, that's a good point because the idea of freedom, I think, is actually one of the driving forces um that I think causes a lot of people to be like, yo, I rather just be single. Because there's this energy of freedom that I think a lot of people um you know, it's freedom is subjective, but some people feel like I can do whatever I want. I ain't got to answer to nobody. I can do whatever I want. And it's not always necessarily about going out and sleeping with a million people and doing all this and that, but you're free to do what you want to do. Um, but the reason why I think it's interesting for the older people, um, a point you made earlier too about, um, you know, as people enter into an older age too, I don't think people are looking at death do its part the same way. they're kind of looking at and like you said, they're like, "Well, I'm still in shape.
I can still do this or that. There's something there's there's something maybe there's something else out there for me." I and I think that I'm not just going to put this all on women. You know what I'm saying? But cuz there's men, you know, men who get older like, "Listen, I don't want to be I don't want to hear your cackling anymore. or I'm about to go get me a young [laughter] a young woman who will who will be a a a yes a yes uh yes sir to me and do what I do what I tell her to do or whatever it is or there's guys who look at it like that and there's a lot of women who are like yo I want to go ahead and just I want to be fly like I used to be you know 10 20 years ago and do this and that. So it's not it's not bad but I think it's an interesting thing in relation to the trend. So, um, but let me let me let y'all rock. Go ahead.
>> Gen X women are leading the filing for divorce.
>> Like that's being led by women.
>> Well, I think women I think women lead women lead the divorce filings in general by about 80 80%. I mean, most divorces are filed by women.
>> Yeah.
>> In general.
>> And I think a lot of those I mean, it could be a plethora of reasons, right? I think I think we all realize this. I think when it comes to like you know me being a Christian it is part of my faith but I've also was in the second wedding for a brother who was getting married and then he got divorced and asked me to be in his third wedding and I said bro you my dude I'll be there but I will not be in your wedding bro divorced that one married again and now he's on his fourth divorce bro [laughter] >> I married a marriage apa I mean it's like it's like and so when people say hey for Christians uh the covenant that we have you know it's symbolic of our relationship between Christ and the church okay great but if you keep seeing these divorce rates in the church go skyhigh how do you defend or make the case from a spiritual lens for marriage for everybody Clearly, some people need to be single and celibate the rest of their days. But what I'm saying is if you add the spiritual side to this for Christians and you know people who are having divorce after divorce after you divorce, the younger generation is like, >> "No, we just seen too much.
>> We out."
>> Yeah. They like they like I don't want to hear it. I think from a from a from a spiritual perspective, and I won't go too deep into this, but I think that there's um some some fundamental problems there that are leading people away from religion as a whole. Number one. Number two, they're seeing the the hypocrisy. They're seeing so much going on in the church that makes them lose faith in the people that are running the church and the church leadership and things like that. So when you start seeing that, you start losing faith in the people who are leading the church that you're going to, you start losing faith in a lot of the um the tenants that they are, you know, that they are professing. So it's like Well, you're saying this, but you're a hypocrite. So, I don't really know if I even believe in any of this stuff anymore because you've lost faith in in some of the people. So, I just think that from a spiritual perspective, there's it it runs a whole lot deeper that that leads people away from it and and and thereby it leads people away from one of the parts of one of the most important parts of, you know, Christian sacrament, which is marriage. So, it's like I think like you said, they start seeing all the cracks, they start seeing all the problems, they start seeing all the hypocrisy, and they're like, "Yeah, I don't think I want to do that." Yeah.
And I believe it's I believe it's part of it, but I also believe people have people have on rosecolored glasses. It takes work to bring two people together.
And we're not talking about the women or the men who were just, you know, they put up a good face in the beginning, but then they turned on you, start cheating on you from the jump, trying to knock you out as a woman from the jump. Like, WAIT A MINUTE, BRO. YOU PUTTING your hands on your wife. Hey, homie. We And I I I told the brother, I said, "Your wife called me scared, dude. If she call me again, I'm coming through with an army."
And you know, I don't play.
Eventually, they separated and they split because dude knew if she calls me crying, I'm coming for you, bro. That's just how I rolled y'all. [laughter] >> But how many men are being challenged like that in their marriages, right? And how many women, this is the thing, I'm I'mma share this part so Sherry can jump in. I was talking to one of the old mothers. She's gone now. And I said, "Hey, why don't you ever come to the Covenant Partner events?" She said, 'Well, I've been married 40 something years. What I need to be coming to that covenant partners event for? I said, ' Have you ever thought what the scripture says that the older women need to teach the younger women how to love their husbands?
And she looked at me with this blank stare and she said, "Son, I never even looked at it like that.
That's a problem because >> yeah, it is.
>> We have to be mentored in this marriage game. We had premarital counseling and I had a couple of sessions of counseling and I had to get a professional counselor too just just for me to work off my childhood stuff.
>> And I didn't work everything off. You know what I'm saying? But we've been 25 years into a honeymoon, bro.
>> That's what's up.
>> That don't mean nothing don't come up.
But the honeymoon stayed a honeymoon forever. Like that's that's the ultimate goal, >> right? But I think women and I'm just I'm I'm putting pressure on brothers. I can't speak for the women. And I'll let the sisters do that. I'm putting pressures on brothers because I know men who have just taken their wives for granted.
Like you should if if your wife is on her cycle, there is no way you get to say, "Well, you know, that's why they got sheets. That's that's why they got that's why we got blankets to replace all that." Do you know what I'm talking I'm talking >> I'm talking straight up in >> who's doing that >> insensitivity. You see what I'm saying?
Like straight up insensitivity.
I want >> meaning like meaning like uh I want I still want some.
>> Meaning like no I'm I I need you gonna give me some.
>> No, I can wait. Bro, this is all but I can always there are women >> but I got their desire is to please their husband >> and when you don't see that level of sensitivity and attention >> and just outside of the just the but later for all that but I'm just saying like it's things like that it's things like >> Tony you know some savages bro that's crazy [laughter] but but they they these brothers have changed over time because I push them to I push them to Look deep at yourself.
Don't look at your wife. Look at your relationship with the Lord. Are you being the husband that you want to be?
That he's called you to be. Skip who you want to be. Are you being the husband that he's called you to be?
Right? And thank God the wives in those cases were able to stick around. I know some other dudes, they was like, "Tone, I'm out. Tell your boy bye." And that's just how things work, man. But it's like I'm I'mma give another example, and this is my last one for now. brother comes, all the brothers, we got like a we got a we got a locker room at church, you know, for the brothers, you know, and that's just how we call like like a man cave, you know, and one brother came in and he was like, "Man, I probably work harder than any brother in here." And I said, "Well, just because you use your muscles and not your brain, don't make don't make you" I said, "Lose the ego, bro. We all here on the same page trying to figure out how to make this marriage thing work." He's like, "Well, you know, when I get home, I need a break, you know." And I was like, AND WE WERE LIKE, "YEAH, BRO. WE ALL NEED A BREAK WHEN WE GET HOME FROM WORK from a long day." He was like, "Yeah, I need at least three hours." I was like, "I'm sorry. Wait a minute. You need what?" So I said, "Who gets the daughter ready for school?"
"She does." "Who cooks breakfast?" "She does." "Who picks her up?" "She does."
"Does your wife work?" "Yeah, she work."
"Who cooks dinner when they get home?"
She does. And I said, "And you NEED A THREE-HOUR BREAK WHEN YOU GET TO THE CRIB."
I already knew the results of what that marriage was going to be, bro. Because when you talking to stubbornness like that where everything is about me me and a woman catering to me. Now if your wife stay home, we having a whole separate conversation. But if that woman is out there pulling in 250,000 a year, if she's taking care of the kid, taking her to all the events, taking her to all the practices, taking her to all the cheerleading, cooking dinner, cooking breakfast, running her around, and the only thing you doing is BRINGING MONEY TO THE TABLE. BRO, THAT'S ego and pride.
You going to kill yourself if she don't kill you first. [laughter] >> Well, Sherry, I I was going to jump in, but you please go ahead and uh drop something cuz uh you guys are dropping so many jewels here.
>> We You know what? You never want to take vows or marriage lightly. Um but sometimes you have to take it a little lightly and just let it be organic, you know. And you when I that's why you know I kind of smirk when you talked about social media because you know me and my husband we grew up in the same neighborhood and we knew each other and you know we tried to be sneaking on the phone when we were younger and stuff like that and we hadn't seen each other in shoot 30 years and then we were at a picnic our uh reunion picnic and it was like we were both single uh and I had seen him on social media and I was like how what the hell he's doing and this and that the third and then I saw him at the picnic. I was like, "Oh, okay. We both single and we both, you know, we exchanged numbers and we started talking." So, it was just kind of organic. I mean, it wasn't a whole lot of thought to it. And I think a lot of people were like, "Oh, that would be nice if those two got together, you know, cuz they they grew up together, you know, they both, you know, that type of thing." But again, when you're younger, I it was not I don't know that I could say that I had this dream like they say all girls dream about being a mother and having uh being married. I did want to be a mother.
Being married, yeah, I mean, I was engaged 775 times like a lot of young people, but I never got married until I got older. And it was just, >> you know, it was organic. I'm not saying it was all roses and you know that type of thing because everything comes with problems or you know things that you have to work through. But I think you know I think people are being a little more organic when it comes to that and they're being organic when it comes to uh saying it's about me. But that's also creating problems in our communities as well because if it's me me that's even down to telling these kids, "Oh, think about you. So, I'm going to go do whatever I want to do and feel like I don't have any kind of consequences."
Because when when when the boomers get divorced and things of that nature, it does it it does create issues in the family. You've created these families together and you've had holidays and everything together and now, well, mom's not here, dad's not here. We have to do this or when the grandkids are getting married. Oh, we got to we got to invite papa and we got to invite uh Ga. How we going to do this? It's a lot. It's a lot.
>> That's Well, see, that's a great point.
That's a great point because you know again it's like that's where this intersection comes into play right so um I wanted to bring up so there's a guy named Delano Squares who wrote a book uh called the vanishing black family and um I thought it was an interest I haven't read the book yet but I saw different interviews with him and he talks about one of the he talks about many things right talks about political trends and policy and stuff like that uh from the 60s on four, but I'm not going to get into that. But one of the things he said that I thought was interesting in the um in his book um or in the interview I should say, he talked about how as far as like marriage um and relationships and when it comes to having kids and all that that we need to we need to actually um look at marriage or look at these relationships more about the rights of children or more about having the ideas of children in mind versus what we want versus versus what adults want. So I think that's an interesting thing. It's a interesting intersection, right? Because you do have this thing where as an adult you want to kind of look at your own happiness and look at how you feel about a relationship. And again, not all relationships are meant to be, right? So we got to, you know, put that in perspective. But I think to your point, Sher, what you just talked about about the me, there's a adults now I think are a lot more about well my happiness going to come first and then as far as kids um they going to come second. I don't know if it's purposeful, but I think that people are much more resistant to being in a relationship that they're not totally happy with. Right? Whether that keeps a family together or not is not the biggest deal anymore because again I just think that people are more resistant to what they feel is unhappiness. But what is unhappiness, right? Because Tony brought up a good point about there every relationship even good relationships are not you know rosy the way you see them on social media or on TV. Everybody thinks that you know if you see someone married for I've been married 11 years. It's it does take work. You know what I'm saying? But I think that social media has made relationships now very um instant gratification for everything. So people look at relationship say, "Listen, if if if I'm not happy and this is not causing me uh um a dopamine hit every day, I ain't going to be with nobody." And particular particularly if you are like yo I'm not getting married or I'm open to it but it's got to be you know and again I'm not just going to harp on the women either. You know what I'm saying?
But you know you see a lot of this with women where they're like listen unless this person is like you know Jesus you know what I'm saying? Or you know or some amazing character that walks on water I'm not even giving it the time of day you know. So, I think our ideals have gotten way again, men and women alike, too, because we we our ideals have gotten like way out of proportion.
So, I think that's that's part of the intersection with it. You know what I'm saying? So, I get it, but at the same time, you know, where are we going with it?
Well, [clears throat] >> men also have some unrealistic ideas about what a woman is supposed to do and who she's supposed to be. And if they don't feel like they're getting their instant gratification and that dopamine hit, they are quick to, well, if she don't do this for me, I'mma find somebody else that will. And unfortunately, they are correct. There are a lot of women who are willing to be the side chick. A lot of women who are willing to, oh, I'm going to pay her pay his phone bill. I'm going to pay his car note. And now he's got a whole herum of women doing all these things for him and he don't even have to do nothing. He don't even work.
So I think that men also have [clears throat] some unrealistic ideas, some unrealistic expectations and are quick to move on to the next chick if they feel like, okay, well, okay, maybe this could if you want to transition into the sexual part, right?
There's a lot of men who claim not to be sexually satisfied as well, right? You know, oral sex is is a big deal for most men. And if a woman doesn't want to do that, then you know, as I've heard in some uh >> some circles, >> no. Well, well, in some circles, social media, things like that. But, >> you know, as a therapist, you know, that that counsels couples and and here are some of these things. This is these are some things that I hear from men about women. You know, they are not, you know, if they're not being sexually satisfied and the woman is not, you know, willing to do that, they will find somebody.
Instead of working the situation out and figuring it out, they'll just go find somebody else who give them what they want. Well, let's well, let's let's let's talk about that. Let's let's get into let's get into that part because, you know, honestly, I think that >> it's it's it's I think it's it's not even an uncomfortable truth. I think it's the truth a lot of people know.
It's actually a huge part of why I think a lot of relationships don't work long term. Kind of two things. One, I think people get kind of get tired of each other and annoyed with with each other.
Let's just be honest. It's just part of relationships, right? But that that you can work around. But also, I think that um you do have a lot of people and it's here's the thing. I think it's hard for people to admit a lot of times because it seems so petty or it seems so wrong to say, you know what, you've been with somebody a long time and you want to be with other people. You know what I'm saying? And you know, I think there's a lot of people who fall into that category, men and women alike. And that that is an issue. And social media definitely plays into that because you know people feel like you know hey maybe I can meet somebody else or other people are giving them attention. You know what I'm saying? Um attention is a big thing.
So let's get into that. So in relation to um monogamy, I think that that is a place where minus religion or minus children, you know, do you think people especially as they get older are willing to stay together minus those social minus those I would call pressure points um kids to keep a family together or religion.
because that's what I think a lot of people that monogamy how how much are people able to stick to being with one person for the rest of their lives because a lot of people talk about it but there are so many people that come out at the end of the day and you find out this person is is cheating and this person was doing this and this and that. So, um, so I want to put that out there.
>> Well, I I can say for my in my, uh, relationship, in my marriage, our children were I had the youngest, my son was 18. So, everybody was pretty much raised. So, we didn't even that's not even that wasn't even a part of our marriage like raising raising kids like that. My son wasn't grown, but he was older. So, it wasn't even like we had to raise children together. Um, I think in relationships, especially, uh, I was 45, he was 47 when we got married, so we were older, but not old.
>> Um, and it's about when you when you you have to do the things, and that's men and women. You have to do the things that you did when you were courting and you have to keep that person. If you were cooking every day, what I mean, I know there's some circumstances when I say every day, you know, if that's what you were doing, then that's what you do. If you were bringing flowers every week, you should still be doing that. Um, you should want to be attractive for your mate. And it's different for men and women. We want to be attractive for our mate. Me and y'all sometimes just don't care.
>> Oh, hold on. Hold on. Tony, don't don't be taking this. I'm just messing.
>> I said sometimes, not all the times, but again, it's like, you know, I think sometimes we put um we put uh a a tag on marriage like it's just once you get married, that's my husband, that's my wife, and that's it. That's all. And I know of a a person who said, you know, it was like they were having issues and it was like, okay, they was they wanted to go to counseling. Um, the wife wanted to go to counseling and the man said, "No, I can't nobody tell me nothing about what to do with my wife.
My wife as if she's property. You can't think like that." You know, people can stay cuz I do know some people who are in love.
Older people, I mean, she look at him with the eyes batten and all that and it's it's genuine. So, I mean that can happen because some people want to be together and they stay together, you know, like my mother was married at 17 and a mother with me at 18.
So, and what she told me was, well, I loved your dad as much as a 17year-old girl would know how to love a man.
>> That's fair. She never wished him ill, but she did know by the time she because she was a pretty uh she was pretty advanced for her age because she was a good mom even though she was a young she was a wife. She she wasn't a single mom or anything like that but she knew that my dad wasn't for her. He was a little like 5 years older than her. So by the time I was three she had moved on and you know had a good job and it was just me and her and you know then she met my stepdad who I I've been with since I was eight. So that's 50 years.
>> So again, >> you know, you again, that makes sense.
When you're young like that, you don't know. And you said that, yay. You don't know what you want. You don't know any of that at 17. You can't. You can't.
>> Well, let me ask you, let me ask you another question. Look, >> let me ask y'all a quick question because that's a good point. Um, so with that being said, I mean, do you think people are when it comes to and I I agree with you.
Um, you guys, Tony and uh, Sher, you guys both made a point about taking people for granted, right? And, um, I think it's something natural I think most people do, whether they like it or not. People do take people for granted.
You get used to people and stuff like that. But >> my question is, do you think people are more in relationships, men and women alike, are finding more reasons to be unhappy? Do you think some people um maybe there's not a problem and they and they feel like there's a problem, they feel like there should be more. They feel like they should be happy. Like I agree you should, you know, have the butterflies and do as much as you can do, but I think that I think I think that people I think that there's are there is a there's a portion of this equation where I think people are finding ways to be unhappy in their relationship, finding ways to be continuously discontent, right? And I think that in in that I think that some some relationships are hard to what I say keep somebody happy.
I think that's sometimes a slippery slope about keeping someone happy cuz you could be chasing to try to keep someone happy who don't want to be happy, right? You could be chasing someone to try to give them attention and they constantly need attention. They constantly need to be validated all the time. That can be a slippery slope. So, do you guys think that that's a thing or go ahead?
>> Well, I I think I think that's a functional problem right there. If a person has a constant need for constant validation or they're perpetually um displeased and unhappy or always finding problems, then there is some deficiency within themselves. It's somewhere they in in their level of functioning. They don't [clears throat] understand what a relationship is. They don't understand what a relationship requires and they don't really know understand themselves either because if they are under the impression that they that again with the constant dopamine hit they're always supposed to feel happy. They have this this um dysfunctional thinking that I'm supposed to always be happy and you're supposed to always be doing something to make me happy, to make me feel this, to make me feel that. Then there is a fundamental problem with your level of functioning and your level of understanding about yourself and about relationships in general.
>> Well, just just not to cut you off, but just to that point, I'm saying that, you know, I think a lot of social media has pushed this idea. has kind of reentered or re you know I reentered but kind of warped the version of how relationships should be. A lot of people look at relationships, they feel like, you know, um either comparing their relationships or looking at what they think is ideal and feeling like, yo, I should be happy all the time and if [clears throat] I'm not happy, you know, >> yeah, >> that's not going to happen.
>> Exactly. And I think it goes hand in hand because there's there's a you know a functionality issue, there's a maturity issue there as well that you are so quick to buy into, you know, pop cultures ideas of what a relationship is supposed to be and how you're supposed to always be fed and always be satisfied and always, you know, have somebody making you happy. when those are all false and dysfunctional beliefs that is going to lead you to one relationship after another. It made me think of your boy uh Tony. He's going now he's on his fourth divorce. He didn't learn from the first time because somewhere in his level of functioning and his ideas about relationships and his level of maturity, self-awareness and and wisdom, there's something lacking there. And I don't know if he's into social media or not, but he could be one of many thousands of people who buy into those social media ideas and beliefs about, well, this is how a relationship is supposed to be.
And if it's not always this, then, okay, I got to get out of this and I got to go find me the next one.
>> Yeah. It's the fairy tale, right? And I I I think part of it is right we talk about the five love languages and our next session I'm going to introduce Maslo's hierarchy of needs because we can't talk about the five love languages if you don't even understand the basic concept of human survival and those physiological and psychological needs that an individual has without nobody being attached to them. Right? And >> so we have to combine these concepts to say, "Hey, look, we understand the five love languages, but let me give you the deeper level foundation that goes with that." I would even be not be surprised if Gary Chapman built the five love languages based on Maslo's uh hierarchy of needs because people just have needs. This is what I've learned after 25 years of marriage and I just learned this this year. So, and I'm just sharing transparently because Yaya is absolutely right. There was a certain expectation I would have on my wife of certain things.
When you have expectations of other people that have anything to do with controlling your joy or your happiness, you are intentionally setting yourself up for failure.
>> Absolutely.
>> And it's like you said, Cojo, it's like you said, you said people are looking for a reason >> not to be happy. And whether they realize it or not, the minute I put my happiness as an expectation on her, I set myself up for failure >> because my joy as a Christian should only come in the Lord first of all. I don't believe in happy. I like it when I'm happy, but happy is happens. It comes and goes, right? There has to be this joy that lives inside of an individual. Period. And I think that's the biggest conver one of the biggest conversations that needs to be had in marriages. There are and having expectations is human first of all. Like let me make that clear. It's a human thing. But at the point you rest your entire psychological feeling based off an expectation that you have for someone else, you are setting yourself up for failure. We do it all the time at our jobs when we want to be promoted and we apply for that job and that dude had no experience and I brought it in. when you don't get the job and that other person does. Oh man, I lost my identity in in the job. You you had your identity tied to a job that you could lose at whim at a at employer. It it's a natural thing to want the promotion, but when you put that expectation of value on that job, you set yourself up to be disappointed when you don't get that. I think one of the things that is involved in this and I think feminism in a way has created two dualities, right? We can go back to women suffrage from, you know, without women in World War I, we probably would have been long gone anyway, you know, World War II specifically, right? But definitely World War II. But when you had women who had to go to the front lines of the industrial complex while men were going off to war, you got women who were empowered. Like, wait a minute, hold up. So when they come back, you just want me to go back into the crib?
You want me to go back home and just cook in the kitchen? Bro, I've been putting brake pads together. I've been putting missiles together. I've been putting all this infrastructure together. And now you want to send me back to the kitchen. You've lost your mind. You crazy. And for some women it was cool to do that. But for some women they was like, "No, if he can work, I prove to you what I can do beyond beyond that kitchen and beyond that bedroom." They rolled up their sleeves and they got in the trenches so they men could come back home.
>> And so I think you have that model. I think part of this is I think a lot of this has to do with scops. I think a lot of it has to do with scops and that comes directly from social media because the term strong black woman, strong black woman, strong, you heard black women heard that so much and it was just like some of them believe I don't need a man.
>> Well, you know what? Let me let me let me let me touch on that point, too, because you know, I think that um here's the thing. I think that that is a good point because it has the ideas of it, not the actual advance of women, but the ideas of what we think it is or what or or isn't has has caused this conversation about the divide between men and women and that's seeped into marriage. I you know I think women are so far removed from being housewives sometimes. I just think it's it's weird and funny to me because people act like, you know, uh, women are in the workforce and I'm like, women been in the workforce a long time. Like most people don't survive. Most households, average households are two income households. It been that way a long time, way back in our childhood. So, it's not new. But I think that um so I do think there is a point to what you said as far as feminism in the sense that the idea of it where you know a woman doesn't need a man to survive right hasn't needed a man to survive for a long time. So I think it does play a role in this sense of um women saying you know what I don't I don't need a I don't need someone to survive. So you know I can choose to be with somebody or not. And obviously there's no there's no big stigma about not being married. So I think that there's part of it. But one of the other things I think that's interesting too I wanted to talk about in relation to that is that men and women the differences between men and women is very interesting particularly when when we get older. Now women are still more social than men. If you look at most relationships um not all but you look at most relationships most women are less homebodies than men. Men are typically more homebodyish, more chill, and most women are more social. You know what I'm saying? And you see a lot of times as as people get older, they say a lot of men um don't have strong friendships or as many friendships as they get older. And a lot of women tend to. What I say that all that to say that here's the thing. Do women have more fun with other women? And do men have more fun with other men? Obviously not sexually. I'm not talking about sexually, but just socially out, right?
>> Yeah. So, you hear this conversation a lot about about the sisterhood when it comes to uh women. And what I what I think is very interesting and I think may also contributed to it to older women. You hear a lot of older women say, you know what, I'm in my 50s. I'm single. I don't need I got my friends. I got my girlfriends and I'm good. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's an interesting thing. So, do you think that that contributes to it? Are particularly with women? I find that women are a lot of women are like, "Well, if it's not about sex, I don't really need a man like functionally anymore at this point in my life." And um >> you know, I'm just put out there.
>> Again, not not you guys personally, but just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know exactly what you're saying, but I think that women like anybody else, you want somebody that is going to handle your heart. You don't want you you you want you got to take care of a woman's heart.
I mean, we are women. You know what they say, women not from men are from Mars, women not from Venus, whatever it is that you have to take care of a woman's heart. And in a relationship, we know that we gonna it's the ying and the yang. We gonna have our days and our times. I mean, it's going to be times that he can't he he he he can't step up to the plate. You got to handle it. And I'm not saying financially. I'm just saying just in general. And it's going to be vice versa. So, it's like a woman wants a man to uh treat her heart right. And men do too. They might not want to admit it, but they have sensitivities too. they want to be loved and they want to be, you know, uh uh catered to just as like like uh women. So, I think that when we talk about like when we were just talking about people that just want to be unhappy, I don't think anybody wants to be unhappy. I just think some people are dramatic.
>> Yeah. It's just about being it's it's the drama and it's the constant um uh always having um an issue or you know it's always something you know um you know people look for they look for different things for me I look I look for loyalty and in loyalty my loyalty is let's say you you know I'm not a per everybody shouldn't know your business For me, when you when you are a husband and wife, that that separates that's the one thing that separates your relationship from other relationships >> don't do it. That's >> that's what's going on in your marriage and your and they and that's what makes people feel like they can say anything about your spouse. That's what makes relationships not last. when people feel like they can let's say have something to say like me I would never talk about somebody's marriage to some cuz that don't make sense or I would never me and my it could be water roses at my house but I'm not going to be out on social media talking about that's why >> you don't believe what my husband >> Wait a minute wait a minute Sherry you opening you opening up a real good can of worms here because you know I've had I've had conversations with my wife about this um just in general because here's the thing and I listen I'm going to say it I'm going to say it how I got to say it. So you guys got to take it how you take it, right? This is a big problem for women. I guarantee you this is not a male thing. I'm getting ready to say a big problem for women and again not all women and with the sisterhood feel like they got to share and I it's a big problem. That's one thing men don't like. Most men I know, men do not like um they do not like their information shared with your friends. And a lot of women either share with friends or they the stuff I've seen on social media about people's relationships have probably 99% come from women, right? And I think that that that is so it's so crazy that women women feel like they got to share, you know, I got to share my relationship information or whatever it is. And I think that is a good point because the stuff I've seen online, I I be I see stuff and I'm like, man, how could you ever have a good relationship with your husband or significant other after sharing information? You know, once you remove that, to your point, Sherry, I feel exactly the same way. Once you remove that wall, if you will, of intimacy >> covering >> Yeah. and you didn't share with everybody else, it's not a good look.
It's going to it it makes it where the person ain't going to trust you, you know? So, I think that's a really good point. And I think that people with their relationships in general have gotten to the point now they just their relationships are just open books to social media. And and it's like people feel like they got to share everything.
>> It's crazy.
>> I I feel like to a certain degree, you say it's women, but men do it and they do it in a different way, too. I've never seen other than the the black race so many men that degrade their the black man more than anybody. I think women retaliate back because they see I've I've I've I've watched people I'mma screenshot some of them and I'm going to send them to you where these men they they attack and they talk crazy about women. They say crazy things about women. You know, they talk about women with their natural >> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Sherry talking about >> wives.
>> Yes. Well, I'm talking Now I I feel you.
That's a that's that's a different adjacent.
>> That could be why they do it. That's an that's an adjacent issue to >> go in their corner, right?
>> Well, I'm talking about I feel you. I'm I'm not I'm not uh disagreeing with you, but about that. But I'm talking about not just men coming on there talking about talking about women or talking about black women definitely exist. But men men are very skittish about sharing specific information about their woman.
They're very skittish. They don't really do it to their friends. And I mean, I have never I ain't never seen no man get on there and be like my wife on on social media.
>> Not on social media, but they do it on social media, you know, >> even even maybe even into their friends.
But, you know, but I'm not saying that men don't do it, but that is a big problem of, you know, wives or women running their mouth to their friends about their relationships. And I'm not I understand people are just people. You got to socialize. You got to share. And women have a much stronger from what I know. I'm not a woman, but women have a lot much long uh harder or much stronger need to share their feelings and share their intimate thoughts. You know what I'm saying? But I like the fact that you said that is a good characteristic to be able to, you know what, you have your friends, but you don't if you you don't got to share everything with your friends cuz that is damaging to your relationship. You know what I'm saying?
And a lot of women don't understand that.
>> Listen, you wouldn't even know any of my exes cuz I don't talk about them. I I never talk about it. None of my relationships. The only reason you anybody would know I have a ex is cuz I have a son. They don't know nothing about nobody I dated. They don't care.
You know what I'm saying? I just don't >> spread that to the sisterhood, Sherry.
Spread it to the sisterhood. You need [laughter] >> spread that just me. I don't know if it's but that's just me and and again I just think that just on both sides if people would just be more careful with each others men with women and women with men hearts in general. I mean because again especially when you of a certain age and we you know we on the other side me specifically on the other side of the the the the shorter side of life at this point not trying to be negative. Why would you want to be Why would you want to have drama? Why would you want to be unhappy? Why would you want to make things more complicated than they need to be? I'm never going to do that. And I'm never I'm I'm my peace.
I will protect my peace at all cost.
>> Yeah.
>> And you know, in marriages, you know, people think of things differently. Like you could say, "Oh, you you know, we like now me and my husband, we are we good. We old. We good. We owe When we first got in our marriage, we wasn't young, but you know, we had to get used to each other and all that. Now, we disagree on how long it took us to get to where we needed to be.
Again, no, nobody is perfect. Everybody is different. you know you so marriage is just that I think that a lot of people the bottom line with this people getting divorced and the gray divorce whatever you want to whatever it's called is just people deciding that they are going to live their lives the way they want to live their lives >> yeah and and I think that is just >> I mean yeah I just I think it's it's a lack of honoring covenant um for those who believe in covenant like you know I don't I ain't talking to unbelievers I'm talking to believers Right. There there's a there's a they don't they don't honor the covenant, you know, and I think that's one of the challenges. And you know, I'm not talking about the outlier special cases.
You know, Yaya has talked about her situation. So I ain't I ain't talking about none of that. I'm like you, you know, you get up, raise up out, you do whatever you got to do to be safe, right? Like so I'm not talking about like those outliers.
There's something Sherry said though I got to touch on because she talked about I think it was Sherry that said talked about the heart and I remember we were in counseling and you know this couple was teaching and they were like hey you know pointed to me I was like yeah what's up what's up he was like um you know what's security to you and I was like man I bring home the money I pay the bills roof over a head all that stuff that's security for me and they was like that's it huh I said yeah that's it and I my ego was like off the charts. And he asked my wife, "What security to you?"
And she said that no other woman is consuming his heart.
>> Bro, my jaw dropped.
>> Venus, Mars, >> one question, two separate freaking answers. But it changed my mindset.
>> It opened up conversation. It gave me a wow moment. like I'm thinking it's about the provision and she like no she's thinking it's about am I inscribed on your heart bro or is somebody else there too either above me right next to me or under me or all around it just it was it just it brought me back to that memory but again we were in counseling because the marriage takes two sincere hearts who want to stay together who want to honor their covenant and who want to make this thing work when people and it was the older gener when boomers found out my wife was going to be staying home, dude. They was talking cray.
Well, how you going to do this? How you you can't be doing this by yourself?
THIS IS THIS ECONOMY out here. I was like, I hear you. But this is the agreement that we made long before we got married. This was part of the conversation that when we got pregnant, my wife was going to stay home. She trusts me to handle that business. I'mma do whatever I got to do to handle that business.
But when she started staying home, she also gifts. She changed the gifts. So Tiffany's became Fanny May.
>> Diamonds became flowers.
>> Yeah. I mean, >> and she was cool with that. See, and and that's perfect. That's that's that's what I'm talking about.
>> That's individuals who were on the mindset. Now, if the world I told my wife earlier, we had a friend of I said, "Anybody in the world know me? You know, I missed two incomes." I'm just going to call that what it is. It was great. Like if you know, but at the end of the day, we shifted according to the covenant and the details of our direct covenant with each other to make this thing work. I think one of So when the when a daughter was going off to college, man, we had a long conversation like, okay, um, let's let's talk let's let's talk about this.
And I think the I think our marriage would be good anyway, but I think the biggest thing that saved us, me and my wife are home bodies.
We enjoy being around each other.
Whether I'm at this desk all day or whether she's in the upstairs doing whatever if if we're in >> we're good. And I think because and I'm an extrovert, bro. You already know that. But I also learned how to be by myself in my singleness.
>> Right now, when she's gone on a trip, bro, I be blowing her up. One day, she was like, "Uh, husband, you know I'm on a tour with our daughter in Italy, right?" Yeah. All right. I'll call you back later. 30 minutes later. Hey, where y'all walking at, bro? If you don't let me. But it was like, I miss her when she gone. But what I'm saying is like, but we still had the conversation about, hey, I just want to We did a heart check with each other. We did a bro, we did a heart check with each other.
>> Now, what does that look like that? Cuz that's I like that.
>> Uhhuh.
>> It look like we know our daughter's going off to school. Mhm.
>> Where are you at with us?
>> That's in That's interesting because >> you know what? That's interesting, Tony, because a lot of people and I think this is where the baby the gray divorce is often happening there. It's often happening where the kids are gone because a lot of people >> don't real [laughter] a lot of people don't realize they don't like they realize how much they don't like each other and they finally realize it because the kids are gone and they're like yo >> I don't like you or we don't have nothing in common or I don't want to be around you.
>> I got to jump in because this is the illusion. This is the illusion of men of husbands and the danger of wives. And I say the danger of wives because women will suffer alone for the sake of their children.
But when those children hit 18, Ba, bro, I have seen it play out.
My boy was headed in the same direction.
Headed in the same direction in counseling.
his wife had told him, the kids were five and seven at the time, that I was content on waiting until those kids finished high school to kiss you goodbye for the rest of my life.
So, I want you to think about that. Now, they went through counseling and when I say my man did a 180 and she did a 180, bro, they still kicking it hard and long right now, bro. They doing beautiful, >> but they got in a place to put in the work. But hearing his wife say that in a counseling session, >> I was willing to wait until those kids.
So, I want you to take that and you couple that with a husband who's not paying attention. You couple that with a husband who's taking her for granted and she's not saying anything because when a woman's fed up, you ain't got to like R.
Kelly, but the dude preached on a song.
But it just shows you that women will endure certain situations and wait for the right time to exit stage left. And by that time, if you didn't pick up on any context clues, bro, >> done.
>> It's too late. You gota you you have to have these conversation. Me, when I say we're committed to this marriage, bro, we're committed to this marriage because we're committed to the Lord.
>> Mr. Brisco, I must I must for the sake of this conversation stick up for the men. Your point was your point is extremely valid, but I must stick up for the men right now real quick. And then Twin, I see you. I Twin, I see you busting at the seams to say something.
So, I will I'll I'll let you hop in too.
>> Defend the Brotherhood. [laughter] >> Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I just wanted to add to that because I think that I think that um what you said is absolutely true. I also think that um there [snorts] is a level of um I don't think we put enough see men are not vocal enough about the lack of maintenance of their white it's not just sexual right >> there's a maintenance that a maintenance and a dial in that women have to have too and I think there's all there's a lot of assumption that as long as the woman is you know doing the normal things that men, you know, whatever the normal things are, working, taking care of the kids, cooking, men doing the normal things. There's often a there's also often a um a um you know, we kind of just assume that you know the woman is she's a good woman, right? And one of the things I think about long-term relationships also too, we have to be content with um being taken for granted to an extent.
You know, I don't I think that may be unpopular to say, but I think people have to be again and it's it's within reason, but we have to be comfortable with being taken for granted to an extent because I think that there's there's almost no room for men to take their woman for granted, but women take their men for granted all the time. All the time. And men don't men are not even a look at the [laughter] face. The men men are not able to articulate it. And if they do art and if they do articulate it, it be it becomes a situation as to what do you mean? What are you talking about? So, you know, so it's it's important for women also to understand too that you don't want to take your spouse for granted either. I know it sound crazy, but there's a lot of women who take their man for granted. Um, especially if you have a, let me tell you, particularly if you have a um, a stable, consistent man, there's a lot of women who grow older, they're just like, I'm I'm bored. And that's why I brought up to brought up the point of, you know, socially men and women may be a lot different.
And I think that a lot of times as women grow, if men and women grow older and you get to that emptiness nest phase, a lot of women aren't leaving because they just hate their husband. You know what I'm saying? Because this person, of course, there's extremes, you know what I'm saying? But I don't think it's, oh, I can't. I've been waiting. I've been, we've been raising these kids for 10, 15 years. I hated your ass all these times, and now I get to go. I don't think that's the common thing. I think the common thing is that a woman is just saying, "Hey, we're older. We don't have these ties together. You're not maybe the most exciting socially, or maybe we don't fit together socially so much. There's other things I want to do, other things you want to do, and I don't really feel like trying to work our differences of human beings anymore. I'mma go do what I want to.
Maybe we're just better being separate.
I think that's more of an accurate picture of what's actually happening. I don't think it's like, you know, so I just want to put it out there. It's not these men who are taking their wives for granted for all these years and they're just these great women who are all attentive to their husband. I I think there's take there, you know, there's being taken for granted on both sides.
There's no doubt about it. [laughter] >> Huh?
>> Getting some looks, bro.
>> No, for real. I mean, again, I'm not talking about y'all particularly, but let's not pretend like it's all these all these wives.
>> It's a vice versa. It's a duality.
>> Yeah. You know, all these wives, they're all wonderful wives and the husbands are all like nonattentive and they, you know, it's just not realistic. I think it's just, you know, there are men and women alike who've decided, you know what, I don't really care about this anymore. I care about me. You know what I'm saying? Um, and I think it's very much mutual, you know? So, I'm just saying that to say that, you know, >> okay, >> I'm not [laughter] >> I'm not putting on one person the other, but I want to be realistic here.
>> Okay.
>> Take it home.
>> Okay. So the the the statistics and the numbers don't fully back up what you're saying. I'm not saying that what you're saying is not true, but statistically >> it is >> by what's reported, right? It is typically the men who are taking their wives for granted because Tony said it best earlier, right? You have the woman who's not only working, she's taking care of the children. She's the one that's picking them up. She's the one that's getting them ready for school.
She's the one that's cooking. She's the one that's doing everything. I have heard this scenario more than any other scenario with married women that they are not only doing all the heavy lifting with the children. They are also working a full-time job. And it is typically the men who are allowing their women to carry all of this weight and not stepping in. The numbers, the statistics, the reports support that it is a much higher number of men who are, and I'm not saying this to say, oh, all men are are like this, all women are like this. I'm just saying that from a divorce and and a marriage unhappiness perspective, the women carrying so much weight in the relationship is a very typical scenario.
And this is definitely contributing to a lot of the Gray and Gen Xer divorces because it's like you sat there and you watch me do all of this for the last 18 years and and I've told you over and over and over again that I need help, that I am tired, but you weren't listening. You just assumed that everything was going to be okay because I always took care of everything.
Because a for a lot of women, that's just what we do. Especially when it comes to the kids, it's kind of an innate response to, "Okay, let me go ahead and jump in. Let me take care of this. Let me take care of this." And when the men get so used to, "Oh, she'll handle it. Oh, she'll handle it. Oh, she'll handle it." And then when they say, "Oh, I'm tired." Well, what are you tired for? You know, I I I work, too.
and and they and they almost view all of the other things outside of a day job as almost trivial. Now, this doesn't apply to you because obviously I know that you are a different type of >> Yeah. No, I don't No, I understand. I It's not It's not I don't I'm not thinking about me. That's a good point.
That's a good point.
>> You jump in and and you actually do the work that a lot of women only are doing, the picking up and the getting them ready and doing all this other stuff.
But that's not that's not a common scenario, unfortunately. That's more of an exception than a rule. And so so many women, yeah, they are filing for a divorce because they are getting tired.
I know somebody who's currently going through that right now. It's like they have a job, a full-time job, two kids, husband works, she works, but everything else is falling on their shoulders. And the cries that they're letting their spouse know, hey, I'm tired. Hey, I need help. Hey, this is difficult. But then the constant minimization of what you're doing. Well, all you need to do is just well just do this and just do that and no help. That is not sustainable.
So, yeah, after them kids get grown and we don't have to dial in as much.
>> You know what? That's that's actually I'll just say this.
>> I'll just say this real quick. That's a good point because um you're right. you know, it's al it's always important. I try to do this too when we're we're having these conversations to um you know, we're only human, so we tend to project ourselves. So, and then I'm like, I can't relate to that. But that that's a good point. I can definitely take that. And that that maybe that does uh contribute to a lot of resentment over the years where you do have a situation where some all the little small things maybe some men are not pitching in on some of the small not small things but the other things outside of bringing in income.
>> The domestic the domestic part of it and and a big part of that for our parents generation is cultural. our men, the cultural men, black men especially, you know, the some of the traditionalist thinking is that the woman takes care of the house. The woman takes care of the kids. She takes care of all that. Fine.
If she want to work, fine. You go to work, but you better take care of those kids, too. You better make sure the house is clean. You better make sure that the that the food is cooked because they were drilled into that this is your role. And even if they have >> changed to quote unquote allow the wife to get a job because if you think about it, you can even look at old school TV shows where it's like, okay, well, so and so wants to get a job and it's like, oh, okay, well, I I let her I let her work, you know, she goes to work at the library, you know, couple days a week, but she better make sure that that my dinner is on the table. gone of those days because you now now now now it ain't even now you need the money [laughter] you live in this economy you need you need >> that's what I was going to say you know it used to be that way but now it's like >> they want you to work life >> please work or else we be >> right but from a boomer's perspective that that you know they grew up in that old school kind of thinking >> they're stuck in that mindset they're stuck in those ways and as You have to know what to do. You You have to know how because during co and a few >> I think is that they don't know what to do. They were so stuck in that mindset and that way of being and even some of the women don't know what to do because they were raised in the same mindset and they get resentful. It's like wait a minute.
>> You mean I got to work? I got to take care of the kids. I got to do all this.
So it starts to to look and feel unequal and they don't know how to communicate that until they just a point where they're just I'm sick of this [ __ ] I'm out of here.
>> I think in the reverse too, you know, where when you do have men who are holding down the finances >> who are working two or three jobs while that that wife is at home >> taking care of the household. You know, I know personal situations where men have had to take care of that, working two jobs, come home, cook dinner, clean the house, do the school. Oh, I I know some brothers who've been in some stuff, right? And so when that man asks for affection, because I think men are really simple, >> stomach, >> that's true.
>> Affection, bedroom, straight.
And even as you get older, take the bedroom out and show an affection towards that husband straight. And I'm not saying that's around the board, but then when you have a man and you know and and and I've been there. I I got a song I got a po I got a poem coming out that's so deep because it talks about soul ties, you know, because when a man is not getting his emotional need met from his wife, he's going to find that somewhere else.
Even if he's not even looking. That's just how the natural order of things work. You meet someone >> both.
>> I mean I mean I know it is, but I'm just I'm I'm I'm I gotta stand up for the brothers, too. You know what I'm saying?
I'm talking about situations where men >> Sherry stop trying to stop him from standing up for the brothers. Let him let let him get his >> when men are doing everything possible, right? And if a brother goes in for a hug and you like, hold up, man. Okay, let me I'm gonna try this one more time.
I want to make sure I wasn't I was hallucinating when that happened. And then when you see it again, it's like, okay, now that affection is being rejected, right? And so, and that that's the silent wars of men, things that men hold in. So, then when it comes time for that, you know, that decision when you like, well, you know, I think I want to leave the marriage. And he like, all right, file the papers. You like, what?
THEN NO MATTER LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT YOU MEAN FILE THE PAPERS? YOU CHEATING ON ME? YOU GOT LIKE, LOOK, this ain't been working for a minute. We've both known it for a minute because there are women who and this is this is this is the deep this is the emasculation of black men that when a black man wants affection from his black woman and he gets that response. I ain't your mama.
Oh, hold up now. That's never happened to me. But I'm talking to men who was like, "Did your mom not fulfill a need for you when you were young?"
>> First of all, I'm married to you. I assumed affection long term comes with this arrangement that we have. And so when men don't get that kind when men get rejected at home, it puts that man in that place. Well, he will endure for so long. But the thing is for men, >> a husband will stay with his wife >> and cheat >> and never leave. Because in our mind, we separate sex from love. I'm just gonna I ain't saying it's right, but I want to >> men we separate sex from love.
>> Yep.
>> And a lot of And a lot of men >> No, go. I'm sorry. I mean to cut you off.
To that point, that's why they say a lot of times they say men actually love harder. Men love men love a lot harder than women. And again, I'm not saying all, but I'm saying generally men love a lot harder and have a certain sense of duty when it comes to a relationship, you know, more more than a woman.
>> A woman wouldn't reject you for no reason.
>> Well, see, we we want love and we need love just like you guys do.
>> Oh, no, baby. [clears throat] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
>> I don't think that a woman is just rejecting her spouse.
Well, here's the thing.
>> What what what what has been going on like when you guys have said like not taking care of her heart, not doing the things that she wants you. If if you talking to your spouse and you're saying, "Listen, ABCD, I I keep telling you. I keep telling you like even with you know saying deuces once the kids get 18 a woman wants to be women I think want to be married more than men in most cases. I I just I just truly believe that. Now, I could be wrong, but I believe that I >> can't date on that. [laughter] >> Listen, just life looking at folk. But what I will say is I just think that most times women ain't just trying to reject their man. It's for a reason.
>> Well, let let me let me say that. Let me let me let me respond to that, Sherry.
That's a that's a point. That's a good point. So, the same way y'all just broke down a um you broke it down eloquently about how a dayto-day might be for some a lot of women and the resentment that that causes in a relationship. I can definitely accept that that that's real.
Now, now Sherry, to your point, women rejecting their man for a reason. It's all it it could be a reason, but it's not always a reason that's related to the man. So what I think then again I'm not I'm not saying y'all but what I'm saying is that there it's a part of I think what women are starting or what's being pointed out about some women in in marriage is that sometimes women have a issue and they find the reason after the issue right you know what I'm saying so they find they find the reason of they find the root of that issue after they try to put the root of that issue and often it goes back to the husband. Sometimes it is the husband, sometimes it's not the husband.
Meaning that so for instance, if a if a woman just because a woman is rejecting her husband intimately doesn't always mean it's because the husband isn't contributing to the household in all in all the ways that could be contributed.
There there I know of households where the men does more than the women.
There's a lot of households where the men do more than the women. You know what I'm saying? Believe it or not, there's a lot of There's a lot of dads, and I'm not talking about me. I'm taking myself out of the equation cuz I know other people and know of other people.
There's a lot of dads who cook. Many dads who cook and do a lot of domestic things, who cook for their kids, help their kids with homework. I know a lot of dads who who are involved in those little things. So, it's not just women, I mean, who are involved in those things. There's a lot of men, you know what I'm saying? Um, even just taking my own experience going to activities, um, different things. You see the dad there a lot of times. So, their dad dads are very much involved too. But I think also just my point is that there's also a point that women aren't as committed to this whole idea of marriage either when they have to put in effort to their marriage. That's what I'm saying. And I'm not saying you you all personally, but there are women who are in marriages that don't feel like putting in the effort. They do like to receive. Women always like to receive and we men like to receive. But I think there's a lot of women stuck in the receiving phase of romance most of the time in in marriage um can be just a receiving thing for women. It's not something that is reciprocated. So, I think that there are women who fall into that category that they've been in marriages that they don't feel like putting the effort. You know what I'm saying? And the reason for not putting in the effort a lot of times it's convenient to say, "Well, well, it's something that the man is not doing. That's why I don't want to put in the effort." No. Some women just lazy.
Some women don't feel like it. And I don't want to put in that effort, but I I like I'll get things. I'll receive things, but I don't I don't feel like it. I don't feel like making my man feel special. I don't feel like um understanding what's going on with him, what changes are going. There's a lot of women who reach that phase where they're like, I I don't care. I don't want to do all that. [laughter] >> There are a lot of men that are the same way, though.
>> A lot of men are they don't care about them.
>> I I agree with you a thousand%. I'm not saying there aren't men, but what I'm saying is that >> I don't I don't want I don't want people to feel like when a woman falls into that category, there's a there's a man who's making her be like that. There are there are men who take their women for granted, who who don't treat their women the best they could, but there's also women who do the same to men. And I'm saying that that baby boomer group isn't all women who was abused and treated bad in their marriages. Some of them are like, "Your ass is old. You not attractive.
[laughter] I'm still fly.
>> I'm tired of >> I got I got young dudes who like me.
>> It can be some of them like that, too.
It That's the thing. It can be both. You know what I'm saying?
>> Yeah. But it takes two, right? At the end of >> I'm just trying to account for the whole spectrum. That's all I'm saying. I think that's what I was talking about. I wasn't even talking about the contri the contribution part of it. I was talking about the taking care of the heart. When you don't take care of a person's heart that you are with and you think it's funny and you don't care about their feelings, >> game over >> again.
As time goes on, they don't have feelings.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Men, there comes an erosion harder.
Women suffer longer.
Um, I think that's a big part of it. So, I think going forward, the reason why the baby boomer thing is so interesting is because it's like if the older people are like, "Listen, I'm through." It does it does show something to you when you go like to the Gen Zers right now, right? Um, and the millennials and even Gen X to to an extent, but mainly the people who are a little bit in that 20 and 30 year old range. It does kind of shout to them like, well, listen, [laughter] maybe this whole marriage thing isn't isn't it.
>> All it's cracked up to be, >> you know, >> we see mama and papa getting a divorce.
>> Yeah.
>> Why should I get married?
>> I think we're not factoring in Oh, go ahead. So, go ahead. Fin.
>> No, no, I was going to say one more thing, Tony. On your a point that you made earlier. What I do think I don't think that um we should push marriage on everybody, but I do think that what you do want to try to do if you're going to have children and a family, I I do believe it's better to at least attempt to try to have a structure of a family, right? Um, but but I'll say this, at the end of the day, if you're going to get in a long-term relationship, your point, Tony, earlier, I do think that um whether it be in the church, which is fine, or particularly outside of the church, people need to start being counseledled when it comes to how to survive these things. And I think we don't we don't really have any of that.
people are really they want it cuz you could see by all these shows cuz these shows wouldn't exist if people didn't want to connect. We're human beings. We want to have people in our lives. We want to have these things but people really need help um before entering these relationships to kind of understand a multitude of things. But I think one of the major things people need to understand is like what should a relationship look like?
There's no one-sizefits-all, but just what should it look like as far as my e man manage your expectations because I think society we've changed. We've created these expectations that I don't think a lot of relationships can even survive to be honest with you.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I' I've seen this work well with premarital counseling through our church.
couples had broken up after the premarital counseling sessions and it was an amicle breakup because they were like, "Man, >> this dude want 10 kids. I want two.
We're not compatible." And he was he like, "I come from a big family, you know, but it was like, >> not that I love seeing it, but I do love seeing it." And I've seen the opposite where, you know, you shouldn't have got married and you chose to do so. And I mean the fastest one I saw was she was she they was they were separated in three months and divorced in six.
>> Like he said, "Yeah, man. We we knew not to do it. We just were trying to do our own thing." And I'm like, you don't spend 10 weeks in a program for three hours once a week going through all these books and these details on the importance and the sanctity of marriage and getting to know your partner and then decide you're going to do the complete opposite of what you got to you knew what was coming, right? And so I love premarital counseling because now now I've had couples come over, my wife and I and they were like getting married within two weeks. I said, "Look, there's going to be nothing we can say to y'all that's going to stop y'all from getting married. All we can do is try to lay a foundation. You not saved, you saved.
Y'all need to discuss how the kids going to be raised. Do you want a non-religious household?" Rel Y'all y'all y'all are mixing this thing up in a way that it's not designed to mix up.
But I get it. I said, "But so we're not here to try to convince you not to get married. Y'all, it's two weeks away.
Y'all getting married.
>> All we can try to do is equip and empower you with tools. Don't fall into traps that we fell into early on >> and how to stay on the straight and narrow in your marriage and honor your covenant like that. That's what we set out to do when people come that late in the game." Because what I'm going to say to you in two weeks, [laughter] you're not going to cancel your plans.
You you didn't got a wedding planned.
You got a honeymoon. You you just spent all this money. Now, we had a sister at church who her daughter was getting married. We were super excited.
They called off the wedding the night before they got married.
Paid for the reception hall. So, they had a big party and that's they told everybody, "Hey, we're not having a wedding. The wedding is cancelled.
>> We going to have a reception hall. We paid for all this food. Everybody just come. We gonna all be there. We gonna have a good time. We just good. We just realized in the last minute that we're not for each other. That's a bold move.
>> Now, who who went to the honeymoon? Her mother and father took their tickets to Hawaii. [laughter] Back then, you can take tickets. You can't do that now, right? back then. But it's like as as as crazy as people may have said that was, >> they knew that the cost of that reception, that wedding, and that honeymoon, >> the cost after that was going it was a lot cheaper than the cost it was going to cost them. I mean, I commend couples like that who at that altar >> can just step away and say, "This ain't this ain't right. This this not for us."
It take I'm not trying to please anybody else in there. It's meaningless, >> you know, like we g if we got to do the Dwayne and Whitley and some dude coming out of nowhere, I need to KNOW IF YOU IN LOVE WITH SOMEBODY ELSE. So when he COME IN THERE, I AIN'T GONNA BE MAD AT HIM.
I'M LIKE, BRO, HANDLE your business, dog. I'm out.
>> Uh, money back, though. I want that ring, too. You [laughter] ain't mad with my ring. But I'm just saying like you got to be bold enough. But I think like moments like this with everything that we've discussed tonight, things like this need to go into a AI tool, need to be synthesized, vetted, built into a ebook to just talk about things that actually That's a good idea for you, man. Things that actually come up in relationships and put these like all these shows we see, we should be taking clips of all this stuff and putting them inside of marital counseling to separate what's real from what's fake and what's going to work from what's not going to work. And I think you start with what Sherry already nailed it. Protecting the heart.
>> Yeah.
>> This is all we going to deal with for the whole this whole course. How you protect your future spouse's heart. And if you do that now, >> bye-bye.
>> I That's a great point. I think that um that is the best quote of this show. Um taking care of each other's heart. I totally agree, Sherry. I mean, that's a great point. And I think that if people could get there, um it's hard for people to get there. I think it takes people um it either takes people time to really get to know each other. Um but you really that's really the most important thing.
If people could start there, that would be great. Um I think that where we've gotten to now in society, we're very much concerned about what we want. Um what we're going to get in the relationship. um a lot of the exterior, a lot of the um the more less important things as far as long-term, but that's a lot of where people start and um it takes people time to even care about they should care, but a lot of people don't care about the person's heart that they're with. They care about, well, what am I going to get in this relationship? What you giving me? What you bring to the table? So, that's part of the conversation. I get it. But I think that that part is what'll keep people together long term. In the long run, I do think that um it would be great. We have to start um encouraging people to find some level of counseling or understand if they want to get into because you're not going to stop people from getting married and stuff like that. I think people do want to get married. Um I'm not someone to force people or force it upon anyone.
Um, but I do think that um, although people aren't getting married, people are still seeking companionship.
Obviously, I think, you know, for people who have decided they don't want companionship, it is what it is. I mean, it's just natural. But people are still seeking it, but I think people are seeking it in a very in a very unrealistic way. And I think that's more of the problem. and younger people um the they don't the reason why I brought up the whole baby boomer thing is the younger people don't really have a a real blueprint as much anymore either because they're looking at and saying you know what's the point in some cases so Heat. Heat. Heat.
[music]
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