Saving Punjabi Identity | A Deep Discussion with Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed & Tariq Awan | Ep 2

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]So if we talk about Punjabis, I still believe that the Punjabi who deserves to be called the most is the Jat Punjabi.

[00:00:06]Punjab became a province of the Afghans, Ghazni and later Ghori, and the state language here was Persian. Initially, it might have been Turkish too, but it was definitely Persian.

[00:00:28]Moreover, Maharaja Ranjit Singh also kept Persian as the state language, which is the riz of the Sikhs [nasal sound], it is the riz [music] of the Sikhs. There is a rise of a religious group or there is a rise of Punjabis.

[00:00:41]If in 1947 all the Hindus had come here and all the Muslims had been sent to Pakistan, then this problem would never have arisen.

[00:00:51]So partition happened but one third of the Muslims remained within India. There was no population exchange. So you cannot say that both these states were created on the basis of religion. Sindhi Muslims did not attack Sindhi Hindus in 1947 the way we attacked Hindus and Sikhs and the way Sikhs and Hindus attacked Muslims. This is a fact.

[00:01:21]Sindhis claim that by creating this riot we showed the way how Pakistan would be formed. So this should not be discounted. Yes, when Pakistan was formed, Punjab dominated it. The reason for this was that in the two institutions that Pakistan got, within the bureaucracy and within the army, Punjabis were predominant or there were Urdu speaking migrants [sangeet] and Sindhis were not part of that, so they again developed grievances.

[00:01:59][Music] Sir, all the nationalities or identities that work under Political Nations, there were many in India, there were Bengalis, Sindhis, Balochs, Pashtuns, Punjabis, there were a lot of them because India has not been united by religion, be it among Muslims, but now even among Hindus, Hindus are uniting them, you must have seen the elections in Bengal, BJP won because there were a lot of other people also.

[00:02:28]So when Religion as a Force of Nationalism came for the community, then Sir, Punjab was very fertile.

[00:02:36]I had written an article on this that the nationalism of Punjab basically got divided into Muslim Punjabis, Hindu Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis after the 15th century AD and the determining force among them has been religion. So Punjabi nationalism or Punjabi identity has been very vulnerable and we cannot do this against religion.

[00:03:01]Please keep two or three things in mind behind this.

[00:03:03]As I said, be it Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, especially those who have not gone to universities but are part of everyday life, there is no problem for them in talking to each other and understanding each other. Despite this, the terminology vocabulary has changed a bit. There is no doubt about it. But the tragedy of Punjab is that there is a Hindu royal period.

[00:03:31]Which language was the state's language in those days? It is said that it was Sanskrit, however, poetry and the tradition of writing it in Punjabi is conventionally identified with Baba Farid.

[00:03:49]But this is the time when Punjab, this Afghan, became a province of Ghazni and later Ghori. And here the state language was Persian, initially it might have been Tarkish also but it was definitely Persian and moreover Maharaja Ranjit Singh also kept Persian as the state language, so another problem arose that historically there have been three scripts here.

[00:04:23]One in which we write Urdu.

[00:04:30]Punjabi was also translated into a Devanagari script. And then Guru Angad, who is the second Guru, and Guru Arjun developed it further. Gurmukhi came. So, at least Muslim Punjabis cannot read the work written in Devanagari and this kind of thing happened in the 2015 year.

[00:04:52]So the script has also played a role in dividing the Punjabis.

[00:04:58]If it had been the case that the language was one and the religions were different, then that would have been one problem. But when along with religion, script distinction also came into existence, then the communication of Punjabis at the intellectual level also became less and less. This is also an additional problem.

[00:05:24]Well Sir, whatever little we do in this, the rise of Sikhs is the rise of Sikhs. Is it the rise of a religious group or is it the rise of Punjabis?

[00:05:36]Very interesting question. Very interesting question.

[00:05:40]I'm glad you asked this. The reason is that in the rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the dominant power was in the hands of the Sikhs.

[00:05:55]But all the communities of Punjab were included in it by Maharaja Ranjit Singh when his rule was consolidated. The Foreign Minister was a Muslim. These are the people from Fakirkhana. Similarly, there were many other Muslims in his army and artillery, those Muslims were its heads. Hindus are also present at the court. So the kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh is also a Punjabi Kingdom.

[00:06:31]Also dominated i.e. ruled by Sikh chiefs.

[00:06:38]But he ruled with the support of other communities.

[00:06:41]So I would say it was a Punjabi because from whom did the rule get taken over, from the Afghans and the Mughals.

[00:06:52]Sir, this was a rule of Punjabis. I will do this contest a little bit. I think this was the rule of one religion. The response and its reaction also came against a religion.

[00:07:04]Because obviously it was happening since the time of Aurangzeb because Ranjit Singh Sahib himself was a Sikh Jat and the Jat Muslims were also harassed a lot by the Sikh regime.

[00:07:16]So if we talk about Punjabis, I still believe that the Punjabi who deserves to be called the most is the Jat Punjabi. So if they do not tolerate each other within the Sikh community and the other sub-castes who are called grandsons, they were harassed by Muslim Maharaja Ranjit Singh Sahib, basically sir, it has been a misfortune of Punjab that the religion has determined it a lot and sir, if you do a comparative analysis of this with Sindh, if you see the community living in Punjab and those living in Sindh, they are almost the same community, there are Jats in Punjab, Rajputs or people on some other pages.

[00:08:04]They claim that we are not Punjabis at all. There are many survivors in South Punjab.

[00:08:08]They say we are not Punjabis.

[00:08:09]He has included us with his Punjab.

[00:08:11]Or the people of the plateau also say that we are not typical Punjabis. In this way, if we go to Sindh, Sir, then obviously in Sindh also a large number of Baloch tribes live in interior Sindh.

[00:08:20]Most of the land lords are Arabs but there are more local Rajputs and there are also a lot of Jats there.

[00:08:26]But Sir, Sindhi nationalism has been very strong regarding Punjabi nationalism.

[00:08:32]He has not been as venerable at the hands of religion as Punjabi nationalism has been.

[00:08:38]Because still five million Hindus live in Sindh and live very well.

[00:08:45]Ah, this contest can also be held again, right?

[00:08:49]Because first of all the resolution in favor of Pakistan was passed by the Sindh Assembly.

[00:08:57]So GM Syed Later On Has Regretted All His Life. But in 1943 itself, spare headed this was done, by the way, which was not in Punjab and hence there also the religious factor in Sindh played a role and one thing is that Sindhi Muslims did not attack Sindhi Hindus in 1947 in the way we attacked Hindus and Sikhs and on the other hand Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus did it. It is a fact that most of the attacks were on Sindhi Hindus, carried out by Muhajirs who had come from Bihar and elsewhere, who wanted houses and businesses. So, there is a difference, but Sindhi nationalism was born later, you can say during Punjabi domination, but before the partition, in fact, if you look at it, I would strongly recommend a person named Pir Ali Mohammad Rashidi, he has a book in Sindhi, which has now been translated into Urdu. He has claimed that first of all, we created Hindu-Sikh communal riots in Sakhar, till then the Muslim League could not take any decision in favor of the creation of Pakistan, we showed the way that if you create this Hindu-Muslim riot, then Pakistan will be established somewhere.

[00:10:39]His claim is that after that, he came to Lahore and when the Lahore Resolution was being prepared, then his role is that I do not know how much of it is true or false, because Ali Mohammad Rashidi 's reputation is also such that he claims a lot more than the actual fact. This Sindhi also tells me. But Sindhis claim that by creating this riot we showed the way as to how Pakistan will be formed?

[00:11:06]So this should not be discounted. Yes, when Pakistan was formed, Punjab dominated it. What was the reason for that, in the two institutions that Pakistan got in the bureaucracy and the army, Punjabis were predominant or there were Urdu speaking migrants and Sindhis were not a part of that, so they developed grievances, so I want to discuss this with you a little, Sir, this is not my argument either, religion has played a very important role there too, Sindhis have issues in India as well, they have issues in Pakistan too, but within Pakistan, Sindhi bias is more than Punjabi bias. There are some other reasons for this because Sindhis are the only community in Pakistan who have not yet voted for a non-Sindhi.

[00:11:55]Rest of the provinces of Pakistan have voted for others besides their own.

[00:12:01]But this is not an argument. The argument, to the extent of Barsgir, is that the religion that exists has dominated all other identities. Even Sir, you people criticize the BJP's Hindutva policy a lot, but I see it as a big unifying tool, now you see BJP is winning even in Eastern India which was not traditionally with mainland India, and Sir, if you look at present India, BJP is not popular in those areas where there are no Hindus, even if you go to Jammu and Kashmir, it is popular in Jammu because there is a large population of Hindus.

[00:12:45]Not in Ladakh and Kashmir.

[00:12:47]Presently it is not in Indian Punjab or on the Eastern side in Nagaland where Christian community lives or now only some pockets of Southern India are left. He has a very strong nationalism. But they are also coming in the Hindutva wave of BJP. So no community of Barsgir can stand in front of religion. Then how would Punjabis stand up?

[00:13:09]Look, let us see the implications of whether one should stand in front of religion or not. That means, if there had been no partition in 1947 and if the same formula had been followed with the religions of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and Jains as they had been living for thousands of years, then there would have been no chance of that state becoming a Hindu state. Nor could it become an Islamic State. Nor could it have become a Sikh state. It Had to Have All Communities Sharing Power.

[00:13:49]But when you got the partition done on the basis of religion, then there you got a belated reaction of Hindus, as you are describing, this feeling was created with BJP, in fact just yesterday I saw someone telling a BJP leader that if in 1947 all the Hindus had come here and all the Muslims had been sent to Pakistan, then this problem would never have arisen. So partition happened but one third of the Muslims remained within India. There was no population exchange. So you cannot say that both these states have been created on the basis of religion.

[00:14:35]Rather, on March 30, 1941, Jinnah Sahib was surrounded by the Muslims of Kanpur and told that if Pakistan is formed on the basis of this Lahore Resolution of yours, then what will happen to us in it? We will still be left in India. So I have quoted Jinnah Saheb that I will make 2 crore Muslims.

[00:15:01]Experience Smartum and Get Smush in Order to Liberate 7 Crore from the Yoke of Hindu Congress. So, in the partition that Jinnah Saheb was carrying out on the basis of religion, there was a compulsion of leaving one-third of the Muslims in India, and he used to say that I am ready for it. However, if this partition had not happened, then the argument is that India would not have been a Hindu state. This Islamic State could not have been formed in India. This would have somehow become a new model with power sharing.

[00:15:39]But the partition of India on the basis of religion is a regression in the development of Indian consciousness. It should be seen like this. There is a lot of sensitivity all over the world regarding the political philosophy of Islam.

[00:15:56]What I have studied is that whether you support it or not. This is a very strong political philosophy and now in India also it is being said that in the census, 20% of the Indian population is going to be of Muslims, there are many reasons for this, there is birth rate, maybe some conversion also and Muslims convert very rarely except the zealots or atheists from that elite class, that is a paid debate but coming to the middle class and middle classes, the recent elections of Bengal were very interesting in this sense that 25 to 30 percent of the population of Bengal is of Muslims who are from Indian Bengal and the population of Hindus is around 70% and the number of seats won by BJP, it shows that the Hindus of entire Bengal have voted for BJP. It may be like this. I am not challenging him.

[00:17:02]I am saying that there is definitely a trend but this trend should be understood only after understanding all these trend partitions.

[00:17:12]I am not saying that if partition had not happened, it would necessarily have been a successful state.

[00:17:22]She might not be able to walk.

[00:17:24]But the British ran it for 100 years and ran it with everyone.

[00:17:36]Within the army, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs all served the British together. They used to do it even within the bureaucracy. So this state could be successful if there was a chance for everyone to get fair representation and there was provincial autonomy. There would be Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims here. After all, they were living here for centuries.

[00:17:59]Despite there being three religions, despite there being four religions. So where do you take that evidence?

[00:18:08]Sir [ __ ].

[00:18:10]Coming back to Punjab nationalism. Now let's talk about Pakistani Punjab, sir.

[00:18:14]Yes Sir, how do you see that in Punjab of Pakistan, the Punjabi language is not taught. That is not even part of the syllabus.

[00:18:23]Yes, what I am saying is that Pakistan is an ideological state which was formed on the basis of two nations and the definition of those nations was not territorial but faith.

[00:18:38]So when it became Pakistan, the Central Government said the same thing, I have also quoted Jinnah Saheb's speech that provincialism is against us, we are all Muslims, hence you should create the state on the basis of being Muslim and on that basis, Punjabis should be made here especially because see, this did not happen like this in Sindh. This did not happen with the Pashtuns.

[00:19:04]But when the British came to Punjab, they gave people a place in their services through Urdu. Be it Hindu, Muslim or Sikh. So here Urdu has become a symbol of being educated.

[00:19:20]I assure you of this.

[00:19:25]Even if you go to a village, those who are a little educated there will try to speak to you in Urdu. To show that we are not the common idiots that the rest of us are. This is a fact.

[00:19:39]I give you one example. When I used to teach in LAMS, I was alone at that time, so I employed a woman in my house to wash my clothes and cook food.

[00:19:55]I used to talk to him in Punjabi. It was Ayesha. Due to some reason she did not come for two weeks, so I called her and spoke to her daughter in Punjabi, then she started talking to me in Urdu, she is the daughter of a maid, so she wanted to make me aware that I can speak Urdu. Do n't talk to me in Punjabi. His mother used to talk to me in Punjabi.

[00:20:23]So this complex is a very unique type of complex of the Punjabis.

[00:20:30]Okay, we will talk about complex things, you should complete the discussion, then not only this, there is another level of this complex, that is the English one, sir, it is the English one, yes, where you learn English, then you become a part of the class, so what do they call climbing classes, Punjabis have a problem, how to climb classes, this is related to education, there is a lot of privatization in Pakistan, there are many private institutions, sir, if you want to build a university in Punjab, then you should bring 101 white people from here, whether the whites are educated or not, but definitely they will be able to speak English, you should keep them in administration, keep them in reception, then there will be lines of people here for admission of children, so what kind of practice is this, what kind of behavior is this that we have attached taboos with our language, whether it is Punjabi or even Kultu, for that matter, so this is a big weakness, from the upbringing of our community to its confidence. It is not a sign, it is a sign of a very big weakness, rather I would say that this Punjabi identity is a split identity and it is also a schizophrenic identity because I will give you an example, when I was teaching in LAMS, there was a girl who was in my class for two years but whenever I talked to her, she would speak Urdu in an accent [sound of clearing throat] which was not the Urdu we usually speak, so I got suspicious that this girl might have grown up in America or Britain and now her parents have brought her here. So then I said, okay, where were you born? Where in America. She said, Sir, I have never gone out of Lahore. So I said that this action of yours of speaking Urdu is not what the rest of your classmates speak. So I found out that from what you know, she had always been to English American schools and colleges, so her accent was also taken from there.

[00:23:04]He was not the same as the common ones, the rest of the students who were with me and spoke Urdu were not like that. So we have complexes upon complexes upon complexes.

[00:23:16]This is a big failure of our state that we have never, you know, for five-seven years, whenever it happens in February, i.e. 21st February, a procession starts from Lahore Press Club and it goes to Punjab Assembly in the rights of Punjabi, in the rights of Punjabi, every time the message comes there that the government is seriously considering introducing Punjabi. Look, it has been a year and it has not been decided yet whether we should teach Punjabi or not. So these are all cosmetic things. We are comfortable in using Urdu and English to keep the people down. Simple, that position is a bit cultural, first look at a proposition, Punjab mothers are sir, they should definitely raise their children to speak Punjabi, if sir they teach their children this language, it is a dirty language, it is abusive, it is very dirty, everything dirty, the mother will not speak Punjabi, the mother will not speak Punjabi, if the mother says it then sir, the children are not at fault, the school is the blame, the school should learn skills, the language should be learnt at home, the mother should not speak Punjabi, the mother should not speak Punjabi, the language is becoming one between the brave and the brave, then Punjabi could not be taught to the children, the problem is that Punjabi parents in urban areas, in Islamabad, Lahore, and maybe in other places too, they speak Urdu to their children, or if it is a little better, they speak English, so they use Punjabi as a slang word or if they sit at night and chat, then Punjabi is becoming the same. Although what you are saying is that my children have not really learnt Urdu till my generation, but those children of my generation have forgotten all that Urdu, which has become a tragedy for Punjab and the other reason is that Urdu is a sign of being educated, hence speaking Punjabi and communicating in Punjabi has become a symbol of the lower class, illiterate class, but my point is that if the Government of Pakistan makes a law tomorrow that for the next 10 years, Punjabi will not be a profession, they will not get government jobs, look, the next day everyone will revive Punjabi, because Punjabi is latent, it is not dead, deep down everyone can speak Punjabi, sir, I have seen research on Punjabi, many people debate and do programs, sir, there is criticism, children are Punjab, Punjab is a child, sir, the first language sir, they have to learn Arabic also because they have to read the Holy Quran. Then sir, she will also have to learn Punjabi because she is Punjabi. Then sir, you will also have to learn Urdu because it is a national language. Then you will have to learn English also because sir, all the knowledge is coming through English. Our own terms, our own terminology, we did not invent anything for the last 300 to 500 years, we used our own terms. Jind karte algebra name has also come, algorithm has also come, jod karte terms have also come, children too, sir it is very difficult to teach four languages, then Punjabi is just a language skip, the negative effect is that Punjabi is discounted, but ah this is the reason, is there any flaw in Punjabi or is it a weakness of the state policy, discuss it in such a way that it is the preference of the state policy that Punjabi should not be cultivated, then you cannot blame Punjabi for that and for that matter the parents somewhere the problem is at the level of the state, so when your state itself does not accept this thing, then this injustice will continue to happen with Punjabi, but is it some inherent weakness of Punjabi that it is not getting the pattern. Sir, this is a political decision. Sir, this is an ideological decision.

[00:28:36]This is not a weakness in Punjabi. Sir, I started by requesting the same thing, the language is absolutely beautiful because I will discuss a little about it that if Urdu, Punjabi, English, Arabic are the four languages ​​of Punjab, if equal importance is given to the feelings, the emotions, Punjabi is not there in anyone because Sir, I saw my children growing like this, first Sir, they learned English, went to school in English, everything at home was also in English, teachers also spoke in English, all the parents learned English, then Sir, whatever they learned, Sir, then thirdly, all of them became successful, in many lives, even outside Pakistan, all of them spoke Punjabi [Music]