Joe House & Nathan Hubbard On LIV Golf’s Strategic Misfires

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]Congratulations, you made the varsity the podcast. My name is John Arand and I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. Well, live golf has gone through two weeks of disastrous headlines. The Saudi private investment fund pulled its funding, putting the future of the golf tour very much in doubt. And that's why I reached out to Joe House and Nathan Hubard to join the pod today. Joe and Nathan host a golf pod for the Ringer called Fairway Rolling and they're close followers of the business behind golf. So, I'm really glad to get them on the pod today. But before we get to House and Nathan, today is Sunday, May 3rd, and here's what I'm watching. First, yesterday was Kentucky Derby Day, and I broke some news in my private email on Thursday about a new horse racing league that Greg Met is launching just next year. This is kind of a big deal because of who Mafay is.

[00:01:00]He used to run Liberty Media and is one of the most plugged in executives in all of media. Anyway, I found out that he's in the process of raising $30 million to start the league that's going to launch in 2027. He's already signed deals with several tracks and has commitments from sports team owners and leading stables to buy franchises in the league. Those franchises, they're valued at between six and 10 million dollars. Not bad. The main thing left to cut is a media deal.

[00:01:29]And Mfay, the media executive, already has had a bunch of talks with networks like Fox and NBC. Now, normally I wouldn't get too excited about someone who says they're launching a sports league. I get these types of pitches all the time, but with Mafay's backing, my ears perked up. He certainly has a good track record. Hey, one more thing before we get to Joe and Nathan. I received a ton of feedback from a story that I wrote about the search to replace Don Garber as commissioner of Major League Soccer. Garber's been the commissioner since 1999.

[00:02:03]Well, MLS hired Cornferry to conduct the search and Cord Ferry has spent the better part of two months reaching out to sports business executives to gauge their interest. And some of the names that I heard are really intriguing.

[00:02:15]There's Larry Berg, an LAFC owner. That would be a Bud Cely type pick. Owners choosing one of their own.

[00:02:22]There's also Hans Schroeder, who's the NFL's top media executive. There's Brett Yormark, who's the Big 12's commissioner. Other names include former NASCAR commissioner Steve Phelps, former F1 executive Sean Bratch, former ABC head Ben Sherwood. In other words, lots of people with lots of media experience.

[00:02:42]It's still way too early to predict how this is all going to shake out, but believe me, I'm going to be keeping an eye on it. Okay, now let's get to Joe House and Nathan Hubard.

[00:02:52]Joe House, Nathan Hubard, I couldn't wait to get you two on uh the pod this week of all weeks because after several years, the the soap opera of Liv, it's it's nearing its its death throws uh right right now. The uh the public investment fund, the Saudi public investment fund has uh uh pulled their funding. um and uh the future for for Liv um uh to say it's not bright, it's a it's a big question mark. So uh Nathan, I want to start with you and just kind of what is is there any path forward that you see right now for Liv to continue to exist not as sort of a carnival show, but like as a thorn in the PGA Tours uh side?

[00:03:38]>> Uh not as a thorn in the PGA Tour side.

[00:03:41]No, I I think if you if you have one saving grace and you're Scott O'Neal uh and you're trying to extend the life of this asset, you are having conversations with a lot of people who have allocated a lot of money to the world of sports over the last few years. And a lot of those people who have raised those funds have been sitting on the sidelines and have been boxed out because it's become highly competitive as the value of these assets has gone up. And so perhaps there is some situation in which through a series of cost cuts and a rethink thinking and a restructuring that some investor is enticed to jump in. But I think what we're seeing and hearing is that the foundational cost structure of this uh of this approach to challenging the PGA tour was just untenable. And if it doesn't work for the endless resources of the Saudis who had some ulterior motives for spending this capital, it's largely not going to work for financial investors. And I I think I think that uh anything outside of a complete rethinking uh it makes it very very unlikely going forward. And and and the last point I'll just make is the brand damage that's happening through conversations like these through everything that you're reading on the internet is something that you know historical league challengers have not had to face. And so for as a as a going concern for this to work it's got to have some media value. And it just feels like if you're a fan of any kind of sport, the negative connotations of this brand at this point are are just going to make the challenge pretty insurmountable in my view.

[00:05:23]>> It it but that is so that that's such a good way to put it. It is negative connotations to the entire brand. Live golf as a brand is a is a is a pretty tainted brand. But if you if you were to go back say three years and you were to try to create a live type of of uh uh tour, like what did they do wrong? Like like what should they have done differently?

[00:05:48]>> Well, Joe and I both have some some thoughts on this. I I think that the combative um I I think part of the golf but louder marketing seeped into a lot of the communication from the executives themselves and I think that they created some natural resistance. They aligned themselves for better or worse politically uh with the president and that created some resistance in some pockets of potential consumers. Um, you know, as Michael Jordan used to say, uh, you know, to invert his quote, "Democrats buy watch golf, too." And I think I think that that had, uh, some some negative ramifications. I think, look, the foundational strategy was right, which is to say the PGA Tour does not go to Australia. Man, I watched Anthony Kim win in Australia this year.

[00:06:38]It was awesome. That's a tournament that if you're Brian Rolap right now trying to think about ways to actually grow the game, that looked to me like like an effort to grow the game. But I think that the um the assumption was that tradition and history and our ability to compare the careers of players who um extend and expand across generations.

[00:07:02]One of the great things about golf is that there's a 19-year-old hot shot coming up right now out of Auburn. And we've also got, you know, Justin Rose and Adam Scott playing uh cons, you know, well enough that we would consider them contenders in majors. And so throwing all of the course history, the ability to compare the the traditions out of the window, I think really created a product that uh was overly reliant on a few guys. And that was just a bet that at the end of the day, I don't think paid off.

[00:07:35]>> Yeah. And but the problem is like that 19-year-old shot hot shot from Auburn, he's being watched by a you know 66 year old guy in his spark lounger of sorts.

[00:07:45]Like I I I thought that the you know the way Liv came out and was like golf's too old and we're going to get younger and you know off camera Nathan you were referencing the the Phoenix Open you know and that's what that felt like a Liv type tour event. If you if you go to the actual events absolutely you know they they they they feel younger they feel hipper. uh um or or actually I haven't been to an event, but that's that's the way they appeared on on television. Uh and and uh like that wasn't a bad idea though, right Joe? To to try to try to appeal to the the younger demo.

[00:08:19]>> No, that that part of it was right. The original sin was they understood message-wise they're a disruptor and they chose to pursue a path of of grievances. grievances about how the tour um underserves its consumers, underserves its players, but they never moved forward to why should anyone watch this?

[00:08:47]What is the uh element of this that makes it appealing to a sports fan? It was guys that we know, guys like Bryson Dshambo, Dustin Johnson at the outset, Brooks Kepka. Um, but the differentiating factor was they're going to play less golf in a shotgun format format and they're going to be in shorts and there's going to be music and it's going to feel like a party. Um, and I guess there's a team element that was very hard to track. That never caught on. that never resonated with uh the viewing public and they never moved they never really seriously addressed that.

[00:09:30]>> It's hard it's hard to root for rich guys to get richer and at the end of the day that was the prize that they were playing for. It wasn't the history at Riviera. It wasn't, you know, winning at Jack's place at Memorial. It was can these rich guys win some more money? And I think for the average fan who's playing a MUN, that that didn't end up being an aspirational thing. It ended up being relatively uninteresting.

[00:10:00]You know, at at the outset when when Liv launched and for the you next couple of years, uh you know, Liv hated the PJ tour. The PJ tour hated Liv. Um is there still bad blood between the two?

[00:10:16]I >> think so. Um part part of what changed in the last couple years is uh the um defenistration Johnny of >> I like that word Joe [laughter] >> uh replaced by Scott O'Neal and as the tour the PGA tour looked inward. You know, one of the the successes of of Liv was having the PGA Tour examine its own business model and reconsider its own leadership structure. The arrival of Brian Rolap from the NFL. Brian Rolap and Scott O'Neal have a long professional relationship. They have a friendship, it's been reported, that preceded either of them in the current roles that they're in. And I think there were conversations occurring um behind the scenes around, you know, is is there a way for um the the two businesses to to coexist? But by the time Rollap was really installed at the PGA Tour, um the tour had already survived the this the the most serious challenge from Liv. Um the most prominent player that jumped over from from the tour to uh live was John Rom. That happened at the end of 2023 where Rollap didn't come into the picture until 25. And during that period, the PGA Tour has enjoyed the highest ratings um of of the past decade with respect to its product and its innovation of having more events where its best players play the signature events.

[00:11:54]>> Yeah. I I would say that a lot of the tensions that existed between players, particularly when Rory was tasked with carrying the water for the tour, that was probably the height of the animosity and there really were hard feelings between these guys who felt like, you know, their their the way that they made a living was being challenged. that has softened and I think the writer cup ironically as a format has helped bridge particularly on the Euro side um some of the relationships that were a bit frayed but if you go into that headquarters in Panavidra and they've had a few layoffs and they've had some restructuring but this was a direct assault and attack on what some of those people felt was their character and their integrity uh because Mickelson was very direct as he led the charge in going after Jay Monahan and going after the intentions of a lot of the executives on the PJ tour. Um now, you know, you don't need to cry for those folks, but I do think um there is still a ton of resentment because in inner rears there's no doubt that the breakaway did not help the game. It fractured the game. It took some of the best players out of their prime. It um you know, it divided a lot of people in the in the community. And and I think as we as we go forward, there are some questions about the viability of the economic model that the PGA Tour has currently set up in terms of purses and prize money on a go forward basis. They did that in response to what Liv uh put out there for their players, but Liv has just folded and told you that it's too much to spend. So surely, you know, the tour is obviously not spending as much on players, but as the purses have gone up, there's still some question about the economic viability of a $20 million purse at a tournament in the Quad Cities. And so I I I think that's that's something that still has to be addressed and that is candidly Brian Rolap's uh biggest problem to solve because there may be a a series of conversations in the future where you're going to ask these players to put a lot more value on the equity vehicle that they've created as a part of the strategic sports group investment uh than actual cash earnings in service of a viable product going forward.

[00:14:19]You know, I I was having a conversation last week with my Gen Z son who was asking me about whether or not the players from Liv are going to be welcomed back into the PJ tour. And so I asked him, I was like, "Name the players." And he didn't even come up with ROM. All he said was Bryson. And and he he didn't even I don't even think he he knows Dshambo. He just knows that it's Bryson and he knows it from the the YouTube clips. Um so this is like a two-part question out to to to both of you. one is who is current currently at live right now that would be able to uh come over to the PGA tour and then the second part of that question is is a is a PJ tour going to be welcoming to them or are they going to make them go through their paces like uh like everyone else?

[00:15:06]>> Yeah, I I'll go first, Nathan. Um, I'm not going to try and answer it in terms of what [clears throat] the um, legal elements consist of in terms of what the tour has said uh, in in in the way of pathways for returning. The tour did did open a limited window at the end of January, early February, and only one player uh, took advantage of it. Now, only four players were eligible. Um, Brooks Kepka, Cam Smith, John Rom, and Bryson Dshambo. Um, and Brooks was the only only player to avail himself of the the return opportunity. And so the the the tour has the ability to set whatever terms it wants in terms of of of a return. But the question of what players matter, um, it's not a long list of guys on that live tour. It is Bryson, one name Bryson and uh [laughter] John Rahm for sure. Um and maybe Walke Neman and maybe Tyrell Hatton, although Tyrell Hatton seems like a better fit for the DP World Tour. But beyond that, maybe some of the young Tom McKibben is a is a name that was sort of rising through the ranks and had a choice to come over.

[00:16:26]Some of the young guys, Michael Assasso is a young guy. Maybe there's an interest in in those young guys coming over and their pathway should be a little bit easier than the the the veterans who who um really made their bread and butter on the tour. Um, but the interesting thing for for us to kind of think through and sort out is I think there's a big difference between Bryson and John Rom in terms of who wants to go back to the PGA Tour and you know, do do those individual players think that that's um in in in their own best interest, Nathan?

[00:17:00]>> Yeah, I I think that's right. And and and I'll just pick up on the back half of your question, John, about whether they're going to be welcomed back.

[00:17:08]You know, I I sort of frame it this way.

[00:17:10]Golf is a game of rules that requires integrity. It requires compliance with them even when nobody else is looking.

[00:17:18]And if all these guys had, while on the PGA tour secretly been changing their scorecards and using foot wedges and all the stuff that my grandfather used to do to try to stay competitive in his old age, >> all the stuff that I do on the golf course, Nathan, come on.

[00:17:35]>> Yeah. I mean, these guys these guys would have been kicked off the tour and banned. And in some ways, they violated similar rules that were very clear and very set out for what you have to do to be able to play in this competition of of, you know, of of this magnitude for other people's money and where you're trying to make a living. And so, when you sort of frame it in terms of those rules violation, you've got to take it seriously. Um that said, Brian Rolap is a pragmatic um dispassionate in the best way leader, which is to say he's not going to get too high, he's not going to get too low. And what he did with Brooks Kepka and Patrick Reed is I think the sort of assassin mentality, which is you've got a kill shot, you take it. And to to House's point, I I think there are three to six players that Brian Rolat feels will allow him to go back to the market and definitively declare that all the best players in the world are playing on the PGA Tour. He's got his own set of challenges to create a schedule in 2027 and beyond, that uh that the media rights uh go up as a result and that viewership continues to rise. That's that's the PGA Tour's own set of issues.

[00:18:54]They they don't play in major markets in most in in most weeks. Um there's a lot more that can be done there, but it starts with that foundational proposition that the best players in the world are all playing together. And so I I think Brian will establish a different set of rules as he as he did earlier in the year uh for the players that quote unquote matter to him being able to deliver that proposition to fans and to the media.

[00:19:21]I mean, three to six players are the the the first question that we had about the future of Liv and if they're going to attract any investment like who's going to invest in three to six six players. I I I've been talking I covered the sports media space of course and I talked to like TV executives and when Liv started they were really worried because they were they they were peeling off some of the big stars but years years in now that the stars are coming back the the word from TV executives is that they disappeared for three or four years. the the PGA has sort of almost created other stars and so like the ones that went over to live, it's almost like, you know, they got injured or they they they retired early or something along those lines.

[00:20:02]>> Well, well, that's what it feels like to a lot of fans and I think the timing of this breakaway league actually matters.

[00:20:06]I mean, if you're trying to create a competitive league to the WNBA right now and you signed Caitlyn Clark, you might have legs. If you had created Liv back in the day and signed Tiger, you probably would have had success. But the post tiger PGA tour that a lot of people uh claimed was boring at the outset and that was less interesting because we still had the remnants of that Tiger needle in our arm as as a fan base of the sport. you know, actually proved to be more resilient than I think we thought because it wasn't single star dependent and you had this group of guys who all came up as disciples of Tiger, but they had more reps because Junior Golf had developed and given a lot more, you know, intense competitive reps to guys. They had technology both in terms of the clubs and the equipment, but also the video and training technology and all the TrackMan data to help them get better, younger. And so you had this whole wave of guys who were highly competitive and at least statistically performing, if you look at Scotty's last couple of years from a shots gain standpoint, performing on par with some of those great Tiger years. Um, but it didn't rely on one guy. And I think that made the it more about the product for the PGA Tour than any one single individual, none of whom had achieved the status remotely close to Tiger.

[00:21:32]>> Yeah. And Johnny, just to pick up, that also was part of the original blunder.

[00:21:37]This startup was so eager to jump into the marketplace and declare victory with the guys that they um signed up and they were so eager to to get events launched and demonstrate proof of concept that they could actually have events. They did not arrive with a TV partner. And it was highly awkward in that first year that the partner they uh uh ended up with was the CW which was not the kind of splash you want to make. This is by contra distinction exactly why the TGL the video league that is on ESPN who arrived in the marketplace with its TV partner in place and they explored the proof of concept together. Is there a place in the uh North American TV market for watching a little bit of this video golf and then watching some good college basketball? Well, the answer turns out to be yes in in January and and February and March. And so TGL is is in in the marketplace right now negotiating uh a renewed rights deal, but they had the patience and the the the sense to arrive with a a reasonable TV partner and put their product in front of of eyeballs.

[00:22:54]The the the Liv folks, we had to hunt for for the CW. I didn't even know where CW was in my cable package. Johnny, >> look. When Liv started, it had so many headlines and it like it had unlimited supply of m money backing it. It seemed like it had the potential to be really formidable. Um, when and I'll answer this first for me, but when did you first realize that this wasn't going to work? And for me, I'm going to go to Greg Norman's press conference back in 2022 when he when, you know, he he was asked about human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. And he he said that he he didn't know if he had any gay friends. And that to me, it just showed that it was just like an unserious uh uh group that was out there that that that was running it anyway. and and from that comment, it just I can't think of a North American sports league where, you know, they they they wouldn't have that talking point sort of branded into uh you know, into an executive's head. So, I'll I'll put it out to both of you. At what is there one point where you were like where you you just thought, "Yeah, this is not going to work."

[00:24:11]Uh to me it was uh the first event after John Rom joined and and it took until then. I think there was some fragility until >> remind us when that was Nathan.

[00:24:23]>> Uh and it and early 24 right house I mean he left at the end of 23 and >> and so it was you know Rahm at that point was a Mast's winner, a US Open winner, an incredible student and historian of the game. someone who had repeatedly and directly denied that he was going to go. And so when he made that jump and I think in his mind he believed that him going to live was going to force the completion of the merger between the PJ tour and live. But [snorts] when he jumped and it did not move the needle in terms of, as House pointed out, bringing in a TV partner that was more high-profile, in terms of ratings, in terms of conversation, not about the fact that he was going, but about the actual competition. When that needle did not move, suddenly all of the leverage swung in favor of the PGA Tour because it meant that the stars weren't making a difference. And uh that coincided with purses being increased which stemmed the flow of guys. You had Scotty come out and Jordan come out and Justin Thomas come out and fairly def and Rory obviously definitively say they were not going to leave. Now you didn't always trust that because of what happened with Rahm. But when Rahm didn't move the needle, it said, "Wow, the PJ tour doesn't have to merge with Liv."

[00:25:49]And for since the inception of this league, we had thought, well, they they got to get together. Some the only way we can get all these players back together because the Saudis have just unending money. They're going to wait until, you know, Yaser has a green jacket and is a member at Augustus, he demanded as a part of these negotiations. Um I if that's not moving, wait a minute, maybe they don't have to come together and maybe there is an ability to ride out um th this wave and wait and see what happens. And when the PGA Tours ratings started to tick up in 24 after that Rory Mroy win at the Masters, the first one, so much interest in the sport, ratings up 30 plus% on a year-over-year basis, even for tournaments that you'd think nobody would care about, like this last week's Zurich Classic in New Orleans, for example. Um, that was the moment when you said, "Wait a minute, this thing is not going to get off the ground, is it?"

[00:26:43]>> Yeah. And I guess for me I was uh skeptical as soon as the two parties um started missing their their self um appointed deadlines in terms of of the merger. Um as time went on the scales tipped further and further in the direction of the PGA tour as the holder of the leverage in that negotiation. And it seems like in those early days the um negotiation got stuck on what would become of the teams that were um such an elemental part of the LIV concept. Um and it became as as time went on it it didn't help Liv that it never really gained traction. They couldn't generate their own leverage in that negotiation.

[00:27:34]The leverage was, as Nathan just described, um, infinite amount of money.

[00:27:39]Well, it turns out that that infinite amount of money is instead finite, and we have run out of it because here we are now uh talking about the death throws of this league.

[00:27:51]I I want to get into uh uh Liv's legacy uh for a little bit because I I actually think the legacy of Liv, if you're a a golf fan in the US, is actually pretty good because it it it did force changes at at the PGA Tour. Uh Nathan, I'll just give it right to you. What like I if you're writing an obit, so obits are generally positive, you know, uh like what what is the the legacy of Liv?

[00:28:18]Well, in one very narrow but important vector, Phil was right. PJ Tour players were not making as much money as they ought to. And the way that the tour was structured and the location of the events were all uh ceilings on uh achieving that value on behalf of players and and the tour more generally.

[00:28:43]And so I there will be significant changes uh that come over the course of the next 12 months. I think we're going to hear a lot at the Travelers Championship the week after the US Open from Brian Rolap and and Brian has been very clear publicly at this point like Liv contributed to a lot of this eye opening and and moving out of the what was I think sedentary position of the tour that everything's fine and we should keep playing these tournaments in the Quad Cities in Jackson, Mississippi and not playing tournaments in New York City and Philadelphia uh and San Francisco on on a regular basis.

[00:29:19]Um, and again, there there's there's space for for events in some of these smaller markets, but I I I think that the lasting legacy on the good side is going to be enhancing the product uh in the long run because in that in that narrow but important vector, there's no doubt that Phil Mickelson was right.

[00:29:40]>> Right. The value of >> Yeah, that's right. Exactly what what Nathan's saying. It's the value of competition in a in a marketplace and what that requires in terms of the incumbent, you know, examining ho how it does things. It was for sure the case that that the tour did not and does not need 50 events covering uh an indefinite period uh on the calendar. It is definitely the case that the tour should have events in places where people live.

[00:30:10]So people, especially in the Northeast, um golf fans can go to those events and and and and enjoy them. There should be events in places like Chicago and New York and, you know, thank goodness we have the PGA Championship right around the corner in Philadelphia, big markets with with giant um you know, not just just golf fans, but sports fans, sports fans who who like big events coming to their towns. And so that re-examination for sure Liv gets credit for that. Um and ultimately in some indirect way this rights deal that Brian Rolap um is tasked with negotiating on behalf of the tour I I believe it's going to be the the biggest rights deal in the history of the tour and that it may yet um subsidize the purses that that we're we're talking about the purses that are required to ensure that the best players in the world are all playing together more often than than not and that they're playing uh tour events, not just the the majors. I'll I'll also add, Johnny, you'll appreciate this as a media person. The past four years have been wonderful for those of us in golf media.

[00:31:18]An incredible contribution to to content. We we've gotten to go on Nathan and I get to go on shows like like this one to talk about [laughter] this crazy league, this crazy concept. So, thank thank you, Greg Norman. I I I have I have one other hope that I I think is a little bit more than a hope and that is that there's something really special about the onsite experience at a golf tournament if done right. It's the only sport that we have where every single ticket buyer can get a front row seat and somewhere on the course you can find your spot to watch Rory or Scotty or Bryson or anybody walk by. And I think Liv understood the importance of elevating that on-site experience and thinking about concessions and how you by the way that's good for business maximizing the spend per fan but putting you know if you go to a few of the existing tour events that aren't the premium ones. um you're you're going to have a hard time when you're rounding, you know, holes 12, 13, 14 in a lot of these courses, finding a place to go to the bathroom, finding a place to get something uh to eat, much less something that's good to eat, finding a beverage in a lot of cases. I think Liv really understood that um both the corporate hospitality angle, but also the sort of everyday GA fan experience could be elevated and made more fun. In my view, that's not blasting the chain smokers.

[00:32:46]while guys are teeing off. But it does say, hey, we have a unique opportunity with the amount of real estate that we have. Yeah, that creates some challenges in terms of ingress and egress and all those things, but it creates all kinds of opportunity to give every fan an experience to get as close to their heroes as you can in any other sport uh in the world.

[00:33:08]Let's pretend live never existed.

[00:33:12]Was was there any movement? Was there any appetite within the PGA tour to to start to move in the way that that it's been moving now? Or did it take something like Liv to make that happen?

[00:33:25]>> Wow. I I think that um we would be many steps behind where we are right now in the absence of Liv. the the culture um that that preceded the current leadership um was really tied to something that Nathan said, the rising tide effect of Tiger Woods. And for the better part of of 30 years, uh, you know, 25, 30 years, the the tour got to live off of the enormous infusion of energy, excitement, and money that Tiger Woods delivered.

[00:34:06]Um, and you know, the the the tour examining its uh structure and its delivery, it of of its of its uh product as an entertainment product on on television, it would not have undergone this level of examination um in the absence of live. That's my view, Nate.

[00:34:24]>> Yeah, I I think you're 100% right. And and to me, the most fascinating if you look at this as like a business school case study, it really becomes a study in change management.

[00:34:36]And Phil's approach versus Tiger's approach are two ways to go at it.

[00:34:40]Right? Phil was a revolutionary. And Phil had no concern for burning bridges and for attack always lean forward. Right?

[00:34:49]He he he and Norman, I think, were probably the most aggressive in in terms of trying to force that change by breaking out and doing it from the outside. But that comes with some downsides depending on the nature of the organization. And there was a pretty clear rejection uh of the new organ by the body and the body being golf as a whole. And that approach I think um you know again in hindsight that was a strategic error on behalf of the rebels. what Tiger was able to do and has, you know, been able to do. And I mean, it's it's it's sad and ironic that all of this week is happening while he's at a rehab facility in Europe right now, out of the picture. But I think Tiger's approach generally was to try to work to create consensus within to leverage his sources of power as House just laid out to um move minds and to move the sport forward. So I I do I'm with house that I don't think in the absence of live you get this level of change but um you know Phil Mickelson and Greg Norman ended up being the first stage of the rocket ship and that first stage of the rocket ship is super important because it has to have a ton of force to get the entire payload up into the air but it burns out early. It actually doesn't travel all the way into orbit and complete the mission. And I think that in in in from a legacy perspective is going to be what these guys are. A lot of fire, a lot of smoke, a lot of force, but burning out early and not actually being the vehicle that could deliver the sport to to what the Northstar was ultimately supposed to be.

[00:36:40]You you guys uh you just mentioned Tiger a couple of times. He comes out of rehab. Does he have as much power as he used to or has it been sort of permanently dinged?

[00:36:54]>> I don't know, Nathan. I [laughter] mean, >> here's I'm going to try and we're going to dance around it a little.

[00:37:03]>> I do I do think I do think that there's a certain story arc of the greatest golfer ever that now is showing very human flaws that really that that >> we've just been through this now. We've been through this since 2009 and we've been through it too many times and and to me and I love TI I mean I do I love Tiger as an athlete. He's one of my you know sort of he's been one of my sports heroes and the problem of course is they tell you never to meet your heroes and unfortunately in this age we've been you know we can't look away. It's just happened too many times. And you know, um, uh, I I I I I think it would be an easier cell if this was just an addiction issue that Tiger was dealing with behind the scenes, but when he's speeding at 2 in the afternoon down streets as school is getting out of session in, you know, suburban Florida, putting other people at risk repeatedly, that's a really difficult thing to come back from. And I do think that from a power perspective and influence perspective, you know, the the tour and the sport should not trust Tiger. It should support him and try to help him through this as best that they possibly can, but they should not trust Tiger to put him back into the spotlight for a third, fourth, fifth time as the reverend sort of godfather of the sport when it's clear that that the the yin and yang of a lot of our greats is that what comes with that greatness is a lot of cost. And this has been the cost for Tiger, his own bottle body and his own, you know, some of his personal failings on display for lots of people to see. I I just think the most important thing for the tour right now is that Tiger get healthy. And then yes, it's going to be great to see him be one of the starters and taking the role that Jack and and and Gary Player and and Tom Watson have now and being one of the elder statesmen of the game. But I I I just think um there is now a pattern of really concerning decisionmaking that's been on display in every decade since the 2000s.

[00:39:05]And I think if there's that level of decision making happening outside of the conference room, why would you trust fully that it is not going to happen inside the boardroom?

[00:39:17]>> Nathan, does that give you any pause about TGL? the uh you know the uh indoor league that he has with with Rory. Does that have any effect on that?

[00:39:28]>> I mean House what do you think? I mean the House has been the he has been the ride or die for TGL since the I went to you on that Nathan.

[00:39:38][laughter] >> I mean this guy nobody loves TGL like Joe House. tell us how [laughter] >> I appreciate that it's a new and different way of looking at at these tour guys and I appreciate the innovation of introducing these these tour guys in a different light in in a less sort of competitive manner. I'm not going to go through the reasons why I like TGL. Tony Cornheiser likes TGL.

[00:40:02]That should be good enough. Um, but the Tiger the the Tiger question, um, he didn't really participate in any way other than as like as a as a captain, right? He wasn't playing and and they still had ratings that were basically commensurate with the ratings that they had in in the first year when they came out with the bang and it was Rory and Tiger going head-to-head. Um, Tiger playing is not as uh important or material to TGL. Tiger being present is important and hopefully by the time this next season of TGL uh gets underway, which will be around New Year's 2027, um he has sufficiently addressed some of these issues and is ready to return to the the spotlight. But I think, you know, to to the um question uh about Tiger's significance and import, I I do think that he's he will not um have his standing diminished amongst his peers and amongst the the folks in in the boardroom where his voice has been vital. It's been reported over the last, you know, seven, eight months as the tour has thought about um you know, what a schedule should look like, what an optimal entertainment product should should look like. he has been uh a really crucial voice and I think that whenever he's healthy enough um to to return to that that voice will still be a viable voice, but the distinction is he should stay out of the spotlight. Um it makes sense for him to stay out of the spotlight. I don't think we're going to see him for the balance of um this this remaining tour season, either Champions Tour or PGA Tour. Uh, and then we'll see some kind of quiet, you know, um, reappearance from him at the right time sometime this fall, maybe.

[00:41:42]>> Guys, I I can't believe in the year 2026, I devoted almost a full 40 minutes to uh to live golf, but I can't think of two better people to talk about it than than you two, including Joe House. Joe, you know, we're on Nessen, so the College of the Holy Cross graduate. I I I expect ratings to uh to go through the roof in uh in in Worcester. [laughter] Thank you both.

[00:42:06]>> I talked about Yes, you got it, Johnny.

[00:42:09]>> Thank you both for joining.

[00:42:12]>> Thanks, John.

[00:42:19]>> Well, I really enjoyed that. And what I liked about that especially is Liv is going through some problems and it's easy to jump on Liv, but the ju just the fact that Live Golf launched and where we are right now, it's made all these changes to the PGA Tour and and the presence of Live Golf, ironically, has made the PGA Tour a lot more stronger than it was. And I really want to thank Joe House and Nathan Huard for joining the pod this week to take us through all that. More importantly though, I want to thank you for listening to the Varsity and Odyssey podcast in partnership with Puck. I also want to acknowledge the executive editors from Puck. That's Gabby Gman, Ben Landy, John Kelly, and the great Bob Tabador from Odyssey. And of course, our partners with Nessen, Greg Po, and Matt Cole Pitz. If you like this podcast, make sure to sign up for my newsletter. It's also called the Varsity. Head over to puck.news and use the code word the varsity, all one word, for a 20% discount. and I will see you on Wednesday.