Why Does God Allow Evil?

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:05][music] [music] Heat. Heat.

[00:00:24]>> [music] >> All right, [screaming] friends. Greg Kokal here at Standard Reason. I'm 35 seconds late. My bad. Uh I think this is the first time that's even happened. So uh we're just offkilter just a little bit. Nevertheless, you'll get your full show here and uh glad that you've joined me here. We had a caller uh last segment that we lost who asked a question that is kind of a perennial challenge. that I want to speak to in somewhat of a general fashion.

[00:00:57]Um the question simply was why does God allow evil?

[00:01:05]Why does God allow evil? Um and so I'm going to offer two um ways of thinking about this or through two aspects of answer to this question. Now this isn't the way the question was put but many times it is put this way. How can there be a god when there's so much evil in the world? All right. And the attempt there is to show that the existence of evil in the world is an evidence against the existence of God. And frankly, that's the most common way that it comes up. And I address this thoroughly in street smarts under um in a chapter titled evil colon atheism's fatal flaw.

[00:02:03]Wait, did I hear that right? Atheism's fatal. I thought that's theism's fatal fall. No, that there is evil in the world is one of the best arguments for the existence of God, not against the existence of God. And I'll give it to you in a thumbnail. We've talked about it a lot of times here on the show. I've written a lot of different things about it. You can find it on our website or in the book, wherever you want to look. And lots of other people have written about it, too. [clears throat] It's simply called the moral argument for the existence of God. And that is if there is no God there is no objective morality. But there is objective morality. How do we know that problem of evil? Therefore there is a God. And it that the argument hinges on the idea that in order to identify evil in the world, you have to have some kind of standard that distinguishes good from bad. And the standard can't be just a subjective standard. It can't be what I like versus what I don't like. Because if that were the case, then some things will be evil to some people that aren't evil to others. Like for example, Brussels sprouts.

[00:03:10]Brussels sprouts are evil.

[00:03:13]At least in my book. [snorts] Why do I say that? Because they taste disgusting.

[00:03:18]And they smell disgusting, which is even worse because now they're on every menu in the country. What is it with Brussels sprouts? It is like the most popular thing. Or mac and cheese. I see that now in strange places, but at least that's palatable.

[00:03:35]Not Brussels sprouts. And somebody who orders those at my table, I got to smell them and they're awful. But that doesn't mean they are evil just because I don't like them. And so the point here being [clears throat] the measure for evil has to be an objective standard outside of our likes or dislikes. It's got to be a transcendent standard.

[00:03:59]But moral obligations that are broken when evil happens um are obligations obviously and obligations are held between people not about things. We have no obligation with regards to things themselves. We have obligations regarding things because of the people who own the things that we have obligations regarding. I can't steal your car because your car is yours.

[00:04:29]I can't wreck your pencil because your pencil is yours. Okay, so obligations are held between people. If we have transcendent obligations, there must be some transcendent oblig.

[00:04:42]If we have transcendent laws, there must be a transcendent law maker. If there's no transcendent laws, pardon me, lawmaker, then there are no transcendent laws, then there are no broken laws, then there is no problem of evil. But if you have a problem of evil, then laws are broken. Therefore, there must be transcendent laws. Therefore, there must be a transcendent law. Maker, ergo, God.

[00:05:05]So, that's the moral argument for the existence of God. I think that works. I think it goes through. I think it's a lot makes a lot more sense than a whole bunch of other stuff, but it doesn't answer the question why.

[00:05:18]Why did God allow so much evil in the world?

[00:05:24]And uh some people will say, well, maybe God exists.

[00:05:28]Maybe evil doesn't disprove him, but why is there so much evil in the world? The difficulty with that challenge is if I cut all the evil in the world in half, would that satisfy the objector?

[00:05:46]No. They'd still say, "Why is there so much? Maybe there's half as much as there used to be, but it's half as much too much.

[00:05:54]Maybe there's some Why would God allow even that much?"

[00:06:00]So what we've established so far is there is evil in the world. Argore the ergo the objection which means there must be some standard.

[00:06:10]If there is no stand there is no evil.

[00:06:13]Okay. But it's pretty hard to say there's no evil in the world because everybody knows there is. Doesn't matter where you lived or when you lived. you know something's wrong with the world and also that something's wrong with us and we are contributor to that thing which is wrong with the world. Okay. So there is evil in the world acknowledged.

[00:06:33]Therefore there must be a standard that is broken acknowledged to make evil and therefore there must be a standard maker that is transcended. So there has to be a God that is the standard for goodness that is violated to create evil in the world.

[00:06:48]Evil is evidence for God.

[00:06:53]But it still leaves the question, why?

[00:06:58]Now, I've said this before, and this just something you could pack away um and make use of if you like, but virtually every question regarding God that starts out with the word why.

[00:07:15]Why did God or why didn't God?

[00:07:18]Virtually every one of those questions is not able to be answered definitively unless God tells us why or why not. And in most cases, God hasn't told us why or why not. Therefore, we cannot answer it definitively.

[00:07:37]So, all sorts of questions. Why did God do this or that or the other thing? Or why didn't he do X, Y, or Z? I don't know.

[00:07:45]I don't know because he hasn't told us.

[00:07:49]Now, that doesn't mean we can't conjecture and we may it doesn't mean we can't come up with alternatives that might be useful.

[00:08:00]Okay? Uh that might even be true, but they're a maybe.

[00:08:08]And uh I'll give you a broad general answer that is too general to be helpful, but at least it moves us in the right direction. Initially, the reason God allowed evil in the world is because it suits his purposes.

[00:08:29]I'm chuckling because you're thinking, "Thanks so much. That doesn't help."

[00:08:33]Well, it does in the sense that we realize that the things that God allows to happen, he allows them to happen for a reason that he has even if he hasn't told us what the reason is.

[00:08:46]That he has [clears throat] certain designs and that things don't happen by accident as it were. Things don't catch him by surprise.

[00:08:55]Things don't catch him unawares.

[00:08:58]Oh my goodness, where did that come from? Oh, I better try to fix that.

[00:09:04]No, God is in charge of everything. He is sovereign over all. He is in control of everything. And [clears throat] you have to work out your theology about how that relates to God's responsibility for evil or whatever. But the point I'm making is whatever takes place takes place for a reason that God has in mind such that he would allow that thing to take place or cause that thing to take place place. Either one. It doesn't happen out of nowhere without playing a part in God's larger design.

[00:09:43]Maybe that's the best way to put it.

[00:09:44]Without it playing a part in God's larger design. So I don't have to resolve the issue of who caused it to in order to be able to acknowledge that God is in charge regardless and that he can use it for something else. Now, it seems to me that something else has got to actually be probably better than it not happening.

[00:10:20]We read in Romans 8, for we know that God causes all things to work for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose, which is what?

[00:10:35]for that individual because he has predestined all of us to become conformed to the image of his son. So we now know part of the picture that God takes the things that happen that might be bad and he's going to use them for something better.

[00:10:54]So why did God cause allow evil?

[00:10:57]Well, because he had a good reason. It would serve his purposes. and the purpose that it serves is something better than would have been if he didn't allow that evil. So this is progress even though we're still speaking more in formal categories rather than material categories rather than specifics. But it helps us because it's certainly in principle it's possible to imagine why God might have allowed some evil for a greater good.

[00:11:35]And incidentally that is the task of theodysy.

[00:11:40]Theodysy is the theological discipline regarding the problem of evil that is meant to explain why God allowed it.

[00:11:48]And there are lots of possibilities.

[00:11:50]Some would argue that evil was something that God allowed because it is inextricably connected to the notion of free will or inextricably connected to the notion of um of love. I I don't think that those turn out to be good theodysies, especially the second one. But nevertheless, this is these are theodysies people have constructed to try to answer the question, what is the good that God is trying to accomplish through allowing evil in the world?

[00:12:25]But that God uses good to accomplish evil, I'm sorry, the other way around, uses evil to accomplish good is is pretty evident to most of us who have walked with God for a while.

[00:12:38]Because I think most of us can look at the history that we've had with God and know that at certain times something really bad happened to us and we said, "OM gosh, what's going on?

[00:12:54]Why did you allow this? Where are you?"

[00:12:57]And so we go through a period of darkness, of depression, of anguish as we suffer from the evil that has come into our life. And we might even go through a time of doubt questioning God either his existence or at least his goodness which is what happened to CS Lewis after he lost Joy David his wife God is real but he's not good maybe well that that happens but then what ends up happening much of the time and this is what I'm appealing to you to your experience the existential relationship you have with God that sometime in the future when this is all passed, you can look back over your shoulder and you can see how God took that thing and used it to accomplish something good, that evil thing of the past to accomplish something good in the present which was future to that bad event.

[00:13:56]You can see it. Oh, now I understand.

[00:14:02]Now I see what God was doing because I know what God did. Now we don't know that beforehand.

[00:14:10]We look down the line and we think, "Holy cow, I what is going on?"

[00:14:15]But as we look back on the events, we see how God used that to accomplish a greater good than could have been accomplished if that bad thing didn't happen.

[00:14:26]Sometimes the greater good is in circumstances. Sometimes the greater good is in our character.

[00:14:32]And so we have what's called a a soulmaking theodyssey.

[00:14:37]That is a rationale why God allows evil in the world.

[00:14:41]That is a entails the notion of building our souls growing in virtue and diminishing in vice as a result of the bad thing that happened. That's sometimes the way it works.

[00:14:55]I can think of things that happened in my own life that were a mystery to me many, many years ago. That is so obvious to me now that God allowed to happen to me so that he could use it to prepare me to be capable of leading stant to reason. To put it simply, it's very obvious to me as I look back.

[00:15:19]Yes, that had to do with character development, too, but it was for the purpose of being in a role that I'm in right now. God prepared me for this through that.

[00:15:29]So, the that we can make progress on this question even though we may not know all of the ins and outs.

[00:15:38]Why did God allow evil? given evil which doesn't turn out to be an argument against God but an argument for God for the reasons I explained given evil why would God allow that well in general because it will serve his purposes and sometimes it serves his purposes by changing the circumstances so the circumstance amounts to something better than would have been or we amount to someone better than we would have been soulm making theodyodysy, but it's always going to be for some good reason.

[00:16:15]In other words, God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing it. Now, sometimes that reason is completely beyond our grasp.

[00:16:24]And maybe we never in our entire lives figure this out. And sometimes the good thing that is going to be accomplished through the bad that happened to us is accomplished generations down the line.

[00:16:42]We don't see it.

[00:16:46]We just had Thanksgiving not too long ago and I and I think of well just last week and I think of uh I want to say Squan Sasquatch but that's not Squanto. Squanto the Indian who was captured from his tribe in the New England area and taken as a as a um as a slave and ended up being freed by monks in Spain and then going to England and learning English and then coming back to where his tribe used to be and his tribe was gone because every single one of them died of disease.

[00:17:28]They were gone. his whole family, his whole tribe. But there were people that were living there now where the tribe used to be in the same exact location.

[00:17:38]These were the pilgrims, but they were starving. And here's Squanto, who not only knows how to stay alive in that area, but speaks English, and he was able to help that group survive and eventually flourish. We had the first Thanksgiving and subsequent growth.

[00:18:03]And I I guess it one can see the good that came out of the bad. Squanto didn't see the good when he got captured from his family and tribe and carted across the pond to Europe.

[00:18:19]But it became evident what God decided to do with the evil that was initially caused, the good that would come of it.

[00:18:27]as he was a source of rescue to the American settlers from the Mayflower.

[00:18:33]Anyway, so there is a uh a way of looking at the challenge. Why did God allow evil?

[00:18:46]All right, our number here 8 make that um 855243 Amy's laughing at me. uh 8552439975 if you're listening live online streaming. Uh or you can call that number when I'm doing a live show on Tuesdays from 4 until 6.

[00:19:07]It's late, Amy. This is my eighth show.

[00:19:10]No, it's my seventh show. I see I get the numbers wrong all the time. Any event, let me give you the number again.

[00:19:15]This is the accurate number. 8552439975.

[00:19:22]I'm going to take a break and we'll come back to either your calls or to open my calls here on Stand the Reason. [music] [music] We are uh we have uh open mic calls. And by the way, if you want to register an open mic call, all you have to do is go to str.org, or our homepage there and under podcasts find live broadcast and then follow the prompts. Then you could leave your question as so many has have done and then I will do my best to get to your question and answer it. Um and that's what we're doing today. We're going through our list of callers and I think the next one we have is let's see Michael.

[00:20:14]You got Michael there on Matthew 16. Hey, Greg. This is Michael from Virginia. Just want to say thank you for all you do and everyone at Stand a Reason. Y'all are doing great work.

[00:20:26]>> I just recently got into a politics this year and you Jay Warner Wallace and Frank Turk have really been some great influences. Uh you've really helped me grow stronger in my faith and to >> actually challenge any doubts I have by doing actual study.

[00:20:41]So my question is kind of a two-part question.

[00:20:45]So does denomination really matter if it sticks to the true values of our belief that you know Jesus is the only way we can have salvation and then through him we have eternal life you know to be baptized in his name and that the Bible and commandments are the true authority on earth.

[00:21:05]And my second part of the question would be in Matthew 16 when Jesus asked the disciples who they say he is and Peter says to Christ and his name the rock. Do you think this should be interpreted as anyone who announces that Jesus is Christ is also parts of the rock of the church or should this be interpreted as some Catholics say and this is the reason why Peter is the first pope.

[00:21:30]>> Thank you again for all you do and hope my question gets answered. Thank you.

[00:21:35][laughter] >> I hope it gets answered too, Michael.

[00:21:38]I'll try my best. And uh let's just take them individually. Um does denomination really matter? If and then you qualify it. If the church believes in eternal life through Jesus, um baptism in Jesus' name, the authority of the Bible, etc. Okay. And in my view, in the big picture, I I think denomination doesn't matter. Not in the big picture. if one is part of a denomination that is within the pale. Okay. Now, a lot of denominations have gone south and uh so we have uh multiple denominations that are represented here. I'm actually in a actually a church that is a denomination, but I'm not holding to all the denominational distinctives of the church. I'm holding to the truth that is taught by my pastor, which is consistent with everything that I know about the basic truth of scripture. Now, we disagree on some things. He's a pre-triber. I'm not uh the he's a rapture guy. I'm not a rapture person at all. Okay? Have my reasons for it. He has his reasons. We've talked about it and okay. Um so, it doesn't mean that I agree with everything, but the foundational things that matter, we do agree on. and I could go to a different church, maybe a Baptist church or maybe a a Lutheran church. Imagine that. Or maybe a uh a Presbyterian church. Now, in any denomination, you have you have facets of that denomination that is have just sold out. So, you can have Lutheran churches that bear the name Lutheran that are just very progressive in their doctrine and off the reservation. In my view, the same thing can be true of Baptist churches, though fewer Baptist churches, I think, than some of the others. Presbyterian churches, the same thing. So, it it's really comes down to an individual basis of the church. And the distinctives of the denomination are important, but sometimes they're secondary or tertiary matters.

[00:23:46]I'm going to want to find a place where I can worship, where I respect the teaching and the teacher and I can be useful in that local community and I can uh and the the core of their teaching is orthodox. It's sound. It's not it's not, you know, going off the rails. All right. So on the one hand, I think denominational distinctives have have importance to them, but they're not central.

[00:24:23]The things that are central ought to be central. The things that matter the most ought to be there in place. And uh so I I I guess I could find myself at a local community church that holds to baptism of children even if I don't believe that that is efficacious in any sense. Um I'd still go there if all the other things fit.

[00:24:50]But I'd probably be more comfortable, all things being equal, with the church that held to all of those things where they didn't baptize infants, but rather um held to what's called believer baptism. You are baptized when you believe as a result of believing. Okay.

[00:25:09]Now you have another question though about Matthew 16 and Jesus rather uh Peter being the first pope and this when the second time I read this and as you were talking about it Michael it started it occurred to me that maybe what you're asking is does the denomination matter meaning as long as any church acknowledges certain things including the Roman Catholic church.

[00:25:39]It doesn't matter what church we go to.

[00:25:41]And so this is where I'm going to make a distinction.

[00:25:45]Remember I said the foundational things.

[00:25:48]Well, Roman Catholicism holds to lots of foundational things, but one thing that they there are two things I think that they deviate in a way that's material and significant. And that is the nature of the work of the cross. And the answer to the question, what what uh what must I do to be saved? I mean, those things are tied together as one. What what is the nature of salvation? How do we get saved? Okay, that's one question.

[00:26:16]Justification. How is justification experienced by the individual believer?

[00:26:23]The Protestants and Roman Catholics have different answers to that question. And even though on all of the kind of cardinal theological elements, the Roman Catholic Church is affirming, they'll even affirm uh that Jesus died on the cross for sins. But when you look down at the nitty-gritty of that, there are some problems. And I think that's a difficulty for Roman Catholicism. The other one is the issue of authority. Who gets to say what's true? And characteristically, Protestants say the Bible gets to say that. It's the Bible that has the authority.

[00:26:58]That's where you get the concept of solar scriptura. What they mean that by that is the Bible alone speaks with the authority of God. Not any human being.

[00:27:09]And when a human being makes a truth claim about God, it's got to be justified from the text itself which is antecedent to the claim. In other words, it's the foundation of the truth of the claim.

[00:27:23]The Roman Catholic Church though believes in the authority of the Bible and some additional authorities that relate to the ecclesiastical structure of the church. The uh the the pope speaking from the chair, ex Cathra or ex cathedral um the teaching magisterium of the church and holy tradition. Now, I think that creates a problem because it strikes me there are lots of times when the pope is speaking or in his authoritative capacity or the magisterium is teaching or speaking in a way that contradicts what the Bible seems clearly to teach.

[00:27:59]And so that becomes a difficulty, a problem. So I cannot be supportive of Roman Catholicism as a Christian denomination when I think it's deeply flawed in these two areas.

[00:28:11]and and so much so that it interferes with the issue of salvation.

[00:28:16]You know, the Pope just recently, I don't have the citation with me. I read it and I saw it and I didn't bring it as preparation for a commentary but he was with a group of other religious leaders, world religion leaders, and his pronouncements seemed clearly to be saying that all of these other pagan religions even were equally legitimate paths to God on their own merits.

[00:28:48]not mistaken paths that end up getting them to God because God, you know, applies the blood of Christ. That's inclusivism. You could be mistaken about these things, but still, if you're doing the best you can, then Jesus blood applies to you. No, it seemed like he was saying that those religions are true independently and on their own merits.

[00:29:11]Well, this is just false.

[00:29:14]Actually, pluralism is false and so is inclusivism. They're both false because neither are are justified by the text.

[00:29:23]Okay. So, this creates this this to me is a real problem with Rome.

[00:29:28]And if people are being told by Rome that they're saved when they are not, now you can see how this is a barrier to the truth of the gospel.

[00:29:39]Um, your question though had to do with Matthew 16 and um, Peter being the rock.

[00:29:47]So, let me just read the passage.

[00:29:50]Matthew 16 and we'll start in let's see, who do you say that I am?

[00:30:00]And Peter answered, you are the Messiah, the Christ, the son of the living God.

[00:30:06]two separate elements by the way. And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you." In other words, you didn't get this from human wisdom is his point.

[00:30:21]Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father who is in heaven.

[00:30:24]Okay? So, you know that he Jesus is the Christ because the father has revealed that to you. He's the source of that information. And then he says verse 18, I also say to you that you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. Now I have a footnote here or a marginal reference here um because I don't do Greek but the Greek word here for Peter is pro that and then when he says on the that's a stone but then the Greek word when Jesus says on this rock it's one is pro the other one is Petra which is a large rock or a bedrock.

[00:31:15]Okay, so it is a different word that is being used. You are a rock and upon this bedrock I will build my church. Now the and the gates of hell, Hades will not overpower it and I will give you the keys of the kingdom etc. Now a big part of how to understand what this verse means is what is the reference or the antecedent to this upon this rock.

[00:31:43]Notice that Jesus says doesn't say upon you I will build my church. That is now you are the delegated authority who will be over the entire church. He doesn't say that. He said, "On this rock." Now, if he says, "Peter, you are the stone."

[00:32:01]And then upon this rock, he would have to change his gaze, so to speak. If he's talking to Peter, then he'd have to turn and be referring to the rest of the disciples and say, "By the way, you guys, on this rock, you are Peter and by fellas, on this rock, Peter, I will build my church." But that doesn't seem to be entailed in the citation.

[00:32:21]Um, and so there are a number of ways to understand this.

[00:32:26]It could be that it is, and this is how some have taken it.

[00:32:31]It could be that he's saying upon the rock of your confession, you are a stone, but on this bedrock, you are the Christ, the son of God. Upon that, I will build my church. On that confession of faith, all right? or I'm the son of God because it is Jesus' church. It's his bride after all. Now, I'm not campaigning for one or another here at the moment. I'm just saying that there's a number of things that are possible and there's other alternatives too that I haven't gone into. All right? And that that are that are are in the running.

[00:33:08]So, I want to ask you this question though. If this is the text that establishes the premacy of Peter and all who follow Peter in his role because it's not just it's not just uh Peter that is the rock upon which he build a church but those who are successors to Peter which that's not entailed in the text but this is the teaching. Then why isn't that fact more evident in Jesus' statement?

[00:33:41]Why is there an ambiguity here? Why is there equivocation? It could be this. It could be that when this is so important.

[00:33:48]I actually think that's an argument against this interpretation.

[00:33:52]And even if it turns out that Peter is who Jesus have in mind, I will build my church that from that we cannot infer a long-term succession of Peters who are popes and in charge. I mean, that's not in the text. Then we have this external thing. What ended up happening? Well, in the book of Acts, Peter isn't the head of the church. He's not even head of the Jerusalem church. James is the head of the Jerusalem church. He's the one who presides over the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. And then as we watch Acts unfold, we see a shift from the centrality of Peter. No question Peter was a major player, maybe the major of the 12.

[00:34:34]We see a shift though from emphasis from Peter to Paul.

[00:34:41]And the bulk of the book of Acts is centered on Paul, not on Peter. So this seems strange then if we are to understand this passage as referring to Peter which is who is the foundation which that's not clear in the text. The wording seems to in my view argue against that and it could be something else but at best it's ambiguous.

[00:35:10]Then why would why would Jesus in a certain sense build this foundation of the organization that will follow on a passage that could be misread by those and in fact it doesn't seem as history unfolds that this is what took place. Indeed, in Galatians chapter 2, it is Paul that's correcting Peter for his theological hypocrisy, not the other way around.

[00:35:41]So, these are all kind of confusing type elements, unusual elements that would seem to mitigate against that interpretation.

[00:35:51]And uh certainly papal succession doesn't seem to be entailed in this passage. And uh um so there's more here. It says, "I'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Incidentally, notice what he's describing is what you do is a reflection which already has been accomplished. Shall have been.

[00:36:19]They aren't the ones who are free to bind and loose. They are the ones that are to express what has already been bound and loosened. Okay. So, I'm not I certainly am not inclined to take that passage that way for a whole host of reasons as I've mentioned. Um I guess my preference at this point is that you are the Christ, the son of the living God.

[00:36:41]It is the foundation that Jesus builds his church upon. Uh but nevertheless, it sure it in it's not the Roman Catholic Church.

[00:36:52]You can't get that out of this passage.

[00:36:55]You just can't. That's specious.

[00:36:59]Um there are other concerns that I have about this, but um anyway, I think that suffices for now. And I thank you for your question, Michael. And let's go to break and we'll have more when we come back at Stand Reason.

[00:37:16]All >> [music] >> right, back at you here. Final segment uh for the show today and we have Muhammad once again in Florida.

[00:37:27]Muhammad, good to talk to you again.

[00:37:30]>> Hey, Greg. How are you doing, sir?

[00:37:32]>> I'm I'm doing fine. I'm just curious though, you called in here towards the end of the show. Were you listening and live streaming and responded to my giving the phone number out or did you just think to call me right now?

[00:37:45]Well, I have a I have a Bible study that ends around this time. So, ah >> yeah, after the Bible study, I just remembered that I wanted to call in and I have the app. So, the app does remind me when you're taking calls.

[00:37:56]>> I gotcha. Okay, sounds good. Glad to talk to you though. What's on your mind?

[00:38:01]Yeah, I wanted to ask today about uh decision making and I know that uh at STR you have some teaching on decision-m and the will of God and >> I'm just kind of curious to understand more about that and and maybe kind of pick your mind about some >> sure some nuances to to that paradigm and >> in particular I I guess I'm kind of interested in how you would parse out scriptures like in James where it says is that um we should ask for the wisdom, we should ask God for wisdom, >> right?

[00:38:35]>> Um and it would seem reasonable to me that if if the Lord is going to give us wisdom that it would be some sort of message that is or leading or something like that that is somehow delivered into our mind and to you know so that we can make a decision that's in alignment with the way that the Lord sees the situation. Uhhuh.

[00:38:58]>> And I'm I'm also thinking about scriptures where, you know, for example, I'm thinking about like maybe Ruth or Esther where it's not explicitly stated that the Lord was, you know, that God was leading people, but it just seems very like, you know, like Ruth would end up at the right uh the right, I guess, field, would end up at Boaz's field.

[00:39:20]Like the story seems very orchestrated by by God. Um, >> you said Ruth, correct?

[00:39:28]>> Yes, Ruth.

[00:39:29]>> And then I guess similarly it's kind of um Esther, you know, um where it just seems very orchestrated by God.

[00:39:38]>> Sure.

[00:39:39]>> Um so how do you kind of parse all of this out and piece it together?

[00:39:44]>> Sure. Okay. That this is really good. Um I only got like 10 minutes to talk about it, but um and I could talk for hours on this. Uh, but let me go backwards with doing the last first. When you say that Ruth seems to be really orchestrated by God, I think you're absolutely correct. It is orchestrated by God. We have no evidence that the way God orchestrated it though was by telling her what to do. She was making her own decisions and the others around her, Naomi, etc. and the decisions they made turned out to work into the orchestrated plan of God. All right.

[00:40:31]So, I mean, you've been around Standard Reason for a while, listen to things, and you've seen the history to some degree. I don't know how long you've been a listener, but um would you say that when you look at standard reason that the the enterprise and the work and the ministry is something that was orchestrated by God?

[00:40:52]Yes, >> I would agree 100%.

[00:40:55]I never had any sense that God was telling me, nudging me, leading me, whispering to me to start stand.

[00:41:04]It wasn't ever on uh you know, it wasn't on the it wasn't part of the program.

[00:41:12]Um, and in fact, it's never been the case since then because at Stander Reason, we operate according to a whole different understanding of decision-making, which I think is a more biblical model. And so if somebody were to say to, you know, in our team, well, let's try to hear from God and see what God wants us to do. They wouldn't be on our team because they're asking a question that's not an appropriate question to ask because it presumes that God is giving directives for individual enterprises and we have to figure out what God said be what God has decided before we can decide. And that is not a biblical motif. Now, that isn't to say that God doesn't sometimes give intervene and give directives, but whenever he does that, and just looking at the book of Acts as a case example, they're always supernatural.

[00:42:05]They're not a hint hint nudge nudge kind of thing. Nobody has to be in tune with the Holy Spirit when the Holy I mean, Paul wasn't in tune with the Holy Spirit when he heard Saul Saul, why are you persecuting me? Okay. So my conviction is uh generally that God orchestrates all kinds of things and he gets things done not by whispering in people's ears but by working sovereignly according to his purposes.

[00:42:31]And we are given directives in scripture about how to make our decisions. But we are not told to hear from God. To put it simply, we're not told or is intimated that we as New Testament, New Covenant Christians should be hearing from God.

[00:42:51]This is, pardon me for putting it this way because some people will be offended, but this is a complete fabrication regarding New Testament revelation. It is nowhere in the New Testament. We are never encouraged to hear from God. We are never tutored about how to develop the ability to hear from God as if God's trying to talk and we can't hear him because of some inability on our side. God doesn't try.

[00:43:19]He can get through the dark most darkened mind most rebellious spirit.

[00:43:24]That's not a problem for God. So we do find something else that's going on now.

[00:43:30]So with that in mind about Ruth and orchestrated by God, I agree with you.

[00:43:34]But we should not infer from what happened to Ruth in other circumstances the Old Testament that they accomplished their tasks that were God's that were orchestrated by God because God was telling them what to do in the specifics. Okay. So far so good.

[00:43:51]>> Yes.

[00:43:52]>> Yeah. You don't have to agree with me.

[00:43:53]I'm just want to make sure that you understand my point at that regarding that. Okay. The second thing is what about James chapter 1? Now it's interesting the context there. James starts out by talking. Do you are you very familiar with the passage? Do you remember it?

[00:44:08]>> Yes, I remember it.

[00:44:10]>> Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you could be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if anyone lacks wisdom, I'm going from memory now, so I I think I'm still on track, though. If anyone lacks wisdom with regards to the trials, that's the context. Let him ask of God who will give wisdom. Now, what wisdom is is insight. Wisdom is insight. Wisdom isn't a command or an order. That would be an instruction, not wisdom. And this is where I think the Mormons fall short when they misapply this passage to um the Book of Mormon. They think, well, if you want to know if the Book of Mormon is really from God, then they cite this passage. God will give wisdom. Pray and ask God whether or not the Book of Mormon is really his book. Well, that's a complete mislication of the passage because it's not ask Paul or rather James is not telling us to ask God for information in that sense instruction.

[00:45:24]He's telling us to ask God for the help he could give through wisdom. And God gives wisdom. Okay. No, wisdom is insight. It's probably a really good synonym there. All right. And I think it's appropriate to pray for wisdom in the midst of trials, which is the specific application there. But there's nothing wrong with asking for wisdom in other circumstances because the book of Proverbs is the book of wisdom which is given for us to make good decisions.

[00:45:51]This is part of what it says there in Proverbs chapter 1. To be able to, now I'm paraphrasing now, but to have insight, to make good decisions, okay?

[00:46:02]To know good things from bad things kind of thing. So, wisdom is an important part of the decision-making process. But wisdom being insight is something that we apply to the circumstances we're faced with. It isn't a specific directive regarding specific circumstances. Should I marry this woman? Yes or no, God? That's what a lot of Christians are looking for. And and what God says is um like a gold ring in the snout of a pig is a beautiful woman without discretion.

[00:46:38]So in other words, if you w if you if you um marry a pretty girl who doesn't have discretion, this is not a good idea. You get the gold ring, but the pig comes with it is the point.

[00:46:54]God's not telling you to do it or not to do it. He's giving wisdom about this kind of circumstance.

[00:47:02]So, there's lots of wisdom insight that we can have that will apply to the question of being married or who we choose to be married, but that isn't God telling us who to marry. Do you see the difference?

[00:47:17]>> Yes.

[00:47:19]And the the point of view that many Christians have, I would say the vast majority of evangelicals is that that what God has done is he's made our decisions for us.

[00:47:35]Now, we don't know what those decisions are that he made. We need we want to decide, but we want to decide consistent with the will of God is the way we talk about it. Well, in order to make decisions consistent with the will of God in a given situation, we need to know what the will of God is regarding that situation, that given specific situation.

[00:48:00]And since God has decided already regarding this given situation, I can't make the right decision until until I can figure out what God has decided so that I can decide.

[00:48:15]Has God decided I should marry this woman? Has God decided I should take this job? Has God decided I should move to this location? Has God decided any host of things to buy this that I should buy this car? I don't know. God's will.

[00:48:30]I want to know God's will. He knows best, but he ain't telling me. I have to figure out what God decided before I can decide.

[00:48:39]Okay, that is the motif, but it's mistaken.

[00:48:45]It presumes that our decision, biblically, our decisions are predicated on God's decisions.

[00:48:53]And since God isn't telling us directly what his decision is about any of those things that I itemize, the presumption is that he's not talking directly, but he is hinting.

[00:49:06]>> He's nudging. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge.

[00:49:09]And what we call that to kind of biblize it a little bit to use biblical language as we say, I feel led.

[00:49:22]I'm feeling pushed in this direction.

[00:49:27]And then they use this language out of Galatians 5 or Romans 8 where Paul talks about being led by the spirit.

[00:49:35]Here's the problem with that, Muhammad, that when you go to Galatians 5 and Romans 8, you realize when you read that phrase that Paul is not using that phrase the way we are employing it in the decision-making model. He's using it to describe something completely different. He's using it to describe the Holy Spirit's role in helping us overcome sin in our lives, specifically putting to death the deeds of the flesh in Romans 8. And um and and so even though this is a biblical phrase, we are investing the phrase with meaning that is foreign to Paul's use of the phrase.

[00:50:14]And therefore, we are being misled as to how to apply it. And we are thinking, okay, God's not going to tell me what to do. He's just going to hint. He's going to let me feel a little leading or I'm going to hear. I think I'm being called is another way people describe it. Or I'm having a peace about it from Colossians 3. They're feeling good about it. And they take all of these things to be hints. And if they get enough hints from God on this view, then they cobble them all together and they presume from the hints what God has already decided and they can decide what God has decided. Therefore, they can do God's will.

[00:50:57]It's a house of It's a house of cards.

[00:51:00]>> Yeah. The whole >> I have two I have two bits, but I'm just I'm just, you know, because I I'm very skeptical. I grew up in a lot of charismatic circles and you know I'm I've been skeptical of people just saying like oh the Lord is saying ABCD you know >> people often make those type of statements but >> sure they make it all the time >> yeah I do feel like there's a place for you know Romans 12 would say we should renew our mind so that we can understand or prove or discern I guess different versions use different language what is that >> perfect good and acceptable will of God for you >> and then I also think like I mean this is anecdotal maybe just kind of speculative but God is we're developing and cultivating a friendship with a God with with God and I think I could go to my friend and say what do you see as best in this situation could you give me some level of guidance >> yes I can't because I got 4 seconds and then my music is coming there it is so what we're going to have to do is pick [music] this up in the future at another time I'm very happy to talk about this because I think this is a very important area. [music] So, uh, thank you for introducing it.

[00:52:11]I've got a chance had a chance to make [music] some comments to lay a foundation. We'll pick it up next time.

[00:52:16]Okay, Muhammad, thank you for [music] your call and I look forward to talking to you next. That's it for the show, friends. Greg Kokal here. Give them heaven. Okay, friends. Bye-bye now.