Homer Goes Hollywood: Your Odyssey Guide Before the Movie

[00:00:00]I mean, it's just But hold on. But hold on. But part of this also is justice, right? Right.

[00:00:05]>> I agree with that. Part of it is, and here's the thing, violent justice.

[00:00:08]>> It is violent justice. And it's easier for us to be nonviolent in a society that actually has strict laws and repercussions for those laws.

[00:00:15]>> Welcome to Classical, etc. You're in the studio with Memorialia Press.

[00:00:19]>> Hello, and welcome to another episode of Classical, etc. >> Look at the camera.

[00:00:24]>> Oh yeah, Paul's got new accountability.

[00:00:27]Someone called him out on not looking at the camera.

[00:00:30]>> So, he's going to work on that. I'm >> over here sitting on the side. I supposed to be looking at Dan and the rest of you all.

[00:00:35]>> Not when she's doing her introduction.

[00:00:36]>> That's right. She's talking to the audience.

[00:00:39]>> Yeah, she is. I'm not. Okay. All right.

[00:00:42]>> We're glad you're with us. We've got Paul, obviously. Tanya, and returning guest, Dr. Dan Sheffler. Dan, glad to have you back.

[00:00:50]>> Glad to be here.

[00:00:51]>> Yeah. Dan, you serve with the Memorial College team. You teach classes. You write for Mealora the magazine. You you teach at the high school level.

[00:01:00]>> That's right.

[00:01:00]>> What else? What am I leaving out?

[00:01:02]>> I teach uh primarily teaching for uh Memorialia College the philosophy classes. Uh but I teach Latin for the online academy. Uh edit Malora the journal and uh write for classical teacher from time to time. And you you speak you >> and I go around the country and speak for uh for all the press things and try to get people to do more Latin, do more Greek. That's right.

[00:01:26]>> Read this literature.

[00:01:27]>> And speaking of Greek, that's one of the reasons we are so happy to have you because we've got a Greek forward book that we're discussing today and >> one of my all-time favorites.

[00:01:37]>> I know. I know. It's going to be wonderful. Well, before we get into it, what are we reading in this the thick of conference planning? Who has time for that? But I'm getting a few pages in. I just got back from my lunch break. Read a little bit.

[00:01:49]>> Are you still reading El Elizabeth?

[00:01:51]>> I'm gonna finish it. I'm about a third through.

[00:01:54]>> Just by coincidence this morning, the podcast that I listen to, it's two British ladies that just chat back and forth >> and they were in they interviewed her.

[00:02:04]What was she like?

[00:02:05]>> She was it was wonderful. I didn't realize she wrote all of Karage and I read that and I did that character to me I did not like at all but I do I did feel like she was such a believable character that I was free to dislike her you know like >> it's a character you don't like but so well done that there's a reason you don't like like her >> and it made me interested in the book that you're reading >> well you can I'm about a third through I'll probably finish it by the end of the week >> but I don't you know I don't know but I want to know how it ends I want it to end happy it's about a teacher.

[00:02:37]>> It's Yeah. Yeah. It It's more or less There's no chapters. It's just >> Oh, I hate not having chapters. You never know where to stop.

[00:02:45]>> But But that almost kind of makes it easy to stop because there is no start.

[00:02:49]>> There's no Oh, no. But I like to think, well, I'll read these next five chap these next five pages before I fall asleep.

[00:02:55]>> It's It's It's pretty short, too. It's digestible. It is sad. It's it's more it it's not a bunch of nonsequittors, but it's just a string of events that are you you get the interpretation of Arty, the main character's personal world >> as he's moving through his adulthood.

[00:03:16]And it's sad. Uh there's some really dark themes, but it's not been dark enough for me to put it down. and she does a really good job with um the inner world of an adult with >> regret and hope and all.

[00:03:33]>> I think you'd enjoy this interview since you're reading her. Yes. I'll send you the link if I can if I can figure out how.

[00:03:39]>> But it's it's probably not for everybody, but it hasn't been rough enough for me to put it down. So, we'll see.

[00:03:43]>> She is a Pulitzer winner, though. Was that Oh, that particular book. Oh, I thought that book just came out.

[00:03:49]>> It did. It's new.

[00:03:50]>> And she's already run the one.

[00:03:52]>> That's what the cover on mine. Mine is my car.

[00:03:55]>> Anyway, >> okay. What about everybody else? What are we reading?

[00:03:58]>> I'm reading Notes from Underground by Daseski. The Pever translation.

[00:04:04]Pver and I can remember his wife and his wife >> who is Russian.

[00:04:07]>> There's a Russian name and I don't know.

[00:04:08]I can't pronounce it.

[00:04:10]>> Um, you know, as I'm reading it, I'm sitting here going, well, I'm reading it for margin notes, right? Our other show.

[00:04:17]And as I'm reading it, I'm like, this is like a literary philosophical uh treatise of what's going on in Dr. Jackekal and Mr. Hyde.

[00:04:28]>> So, people might think that we actually intended that. We did not. Um, it's just we came up with a b with a list of books we wanted to read and and sort of the struggle between the good and the bad that's within man. M >> the the section so far that I've read of notes from underground that's what's what's going on there >> which I feel like dsttoyki deals with all the times anyway.

[00:04:48]>> It's just like a dsttoies theme.

[00:04:51]>> Yes. Yes. So that's that's what I'm working >> struggle. I'm reading the labors of Hercules which um Bonnie Graham sent me one of our Latin scholars >> um and supporters. And um I start I got through like four four of the labor. So it's Eric La Puro.

[00:05:13]>> Oh.

[00:05:14]>> Who is um getting ready to retire and he's decided to do 12 labors of at the beginning he's mourning the fact that he doesn't have a classical education. So he goes back and reads mythology and decides, oh this Hercules, that's like me. So So he's he's picking 12 cases that mirror the 12 myths.

[00:05:35]>> Mhm. or the 12 stories of Hercules 12, >> right?

[00:05:38]>> Yes. Okay, that's what Agatha Christie.

[00:05:41]>> Did she she wrote this?

[00:05:42]>> Yes, she did. And I don't know if I've read it before or not, but it's it is good. I love Agatha Christie. So, this is just wonderful to me. But then I had to put it down because I felt like I should reread the Odyssey. So, >> but you could put it down because it's like short stories because it is 12 stories, 12 labors.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah, that's fun.

[00:06:01]>> Sounds delightyful.

[00:06:03]Ian, >> I mentioned last time that I'm working through the mammoth uh biography of Winston Churchill, the last uh lion. So, I won't say anything about that again.

[00:06:12]Uh but obviously, I'm still still in that and I will be for a little while.

[00:06:16]Uh but I've been doing a deep dive on Latin poetry over the last couple weeks and I'm really working on uh Horus's ODS. So, slowly trying to do my own translations and work through the Latin.

[00:06:29]Yeah, >> I bet that's rewarding.

[00:06:31]>> Very rewarding. very rewarding. He is the king in my mind of lyric poetry as opposed to narrative storytelling poetry. But that tradition of just creating a single beautiful image or setting a little scene uh with a few people maybe or just directly addressing one person and creating a a very delicate uh mood in a few lines.

[00:06:59]>> Where is Horus on the timeline? He's an Augustine uh poet. So he's contemporary with Virgil and Aiden.

[00:07:06]>> Okay.

[00:07:07]>> And another one that was sort of sponsored uh by the Augustine court.

[00:07:13]>> Good to hear. Well, one more thing to add to what we were reading. We have new reading that's coming. We got a package today. Tanya and I did from a listener who sent us I don't know if we have the same book, but she sent us an email and she said, "I'm going to send you a book.

[00:07:27]It's for both of us. And watch me not be able to open it.

[00:07:31]>> Mhm.

[00:07:31]>> Oh no.

[00:07:32]>> Oh no. Does anyone have a pocket knife?

[00:07:34]>> Oh, he always has a pocket knife.

[00:07:37]>> It be prepared weapons.

[00:07:39]>> When you get on an airplane, do you make sure you don't have it with you?

[00:07:43]>> Yes. Actually, the thing I'm more concerned about is possible hunting rounds in my bags.

[00:07:48]>> Uh, >> I think they would understand a pocketk knife more than that. Oo, >> when the day comes, Gabrielle >> fresh creative premise. The drama builds with each page.

[00:08:00]>> I've never heard of this and never seen it. Oh, and it's book one. I love a series.

[00:08:05]>> How will she choose knowing all she must sacrifice? Well, I'm in.

[00:08:09]>> 1914, Gilded Age.

[00:08:13]>> There's a note.

[00:08:14]>> Oh, wait.

[00:08:17]She lives one life in 1774 Colonial Williamsburg and the other in 1914 Gilded Age.

[00:08:23]>> You got a reincarnation book.

[00:08:25]>> When she falls asleep in one life, she wakes up in the other.

[00:08:28]>> Ah, it's a letter.

[00:08:30]>> Y and it's handwritten, which I love.

[00:08:33]>> Oh, and some bookmarks.

[00:08:34]>> Oh, it's from Jessica in Indianapolis.

[00:08:36]Well, we'll have to read this together.

[00:08:39]Tanya, >> guys, aren't these bookmarks pretty, too?

[00:08:41]>> I hope you enjoy this book. It's a fun, entertaining read. I love it for that purpose.

[00:08:46]>> Well, that's what we need in the summer.

[00:08:48]>> Thank you so much, Jessica. And it's beautiful.

[00:08:51]>> We will report back.

[00:08:52]>> Find a cabana somewhere and by poolside.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah.

[00:08:56]>> Crack that.

[00:08:56]>> And you know, it feels good.

[00:08:58]>> It I get like a matte finish.

[00:09:00]>> I I'm I'm just going to say that, you know, the other people on the show would also appreciate a book.

[00:09:07]>> Didn't you get a tie?

[00:09:08]>> I did get a tie.

[00:09:09]>> Okay. All right. He get He gets clothing.

[00:09:12]>> We get books.

[00:09:13]>> That's right. We get the good end of the table.

[00:09:15]>> Okay. Now we have to fight over who gets it first.

[00:09:18]>> You should take it first. Cuz when I finish a book, it looks like this.

[00:09:22]>> Kind of ready.

[00:09:23]>> And when you finish a book, it looks like it hasn't been touched.

[00:09:27]>> So this is your odyssey. Look at that.

[00:09:28]Mine not even broken.

[00:09:30]>> And mine are just Now this one isn't Well, it is mine are a mess.

[00:09:36]>> Should we talk about those books now?

[00:09:38]Let's get on to the show.

[00:09:38]>> Let's do it.

[00:09:39]>> Okay. Well, today we are tackling one of the greatest fountains in literature, Homer's Odyssey. And there's a reason we're doing it. Now, you might have heard that Christopher Nolan is about to release his movie adaptation of the Odyssey. And I think about half of Hollywood is in this movie. The the list of stars is quite long.

[00:10:00]>> I haven't even >> It's remarkable who he got to do this movie.

[00:10:03]>> When it comes to translations of the Odyssey, you probably know that there are many across the table. We've read several and from what I could tell in interviews, Nolan said that he was influenced by a couple different translations when he made the film. We haven't seen it so we don't know, but we thought we'd talk about it. So, we're going to have some comparisons of the translations, but I thought we could start with the story, the structure of it, and then maybe some of our takeaways and opinions.

[00:10:33]If anybody is a little dusty on the themes in the Odyssey or the the facts, I wanted to clip off a few of those and then you guys just let me know what I missed. It's a poem originally meant to be sung and it was written in Greek roughly 7th 8th century. It's a sequel to the Iliad. The Trojan War is over and it's the story of Odysius, the Greek captain, trying to get home after the war back to the island of Ithaca. And it his journey takes 10 years. It's full of monsters, shipwrecks, gods, temptations.

[00:11:11]I'm leaving out a lot there.

[00:11:14]But it's also a domestic story because his wife Penelope is at home fighting off the suitors who have tried to take over. And she's with her son Tmicus who's trying to hold down the fort.

[00:11:25]She's trying to survive and he's growing up fatherless.

[00:11:29]So, it's it's also sort of a coming of age story, I think, for him. But what did I leave out?

[00:11:34]>> That was very succinct.

[00:11:36]>> Okay. Well, there Yeah.

[00:11:40]>> But of course, there's I mean, we could talk about all the details in there for two hours. There's so much to cover.

[00:11:45]>> Oh, I But I I like that the way this is the way it's written like a story within a story. It's kind of like, you know, in the Bible where Moses is getting ready to die >> and he gives the whole history of the Old Testament to his people >> before he dies and then um Paul does the same thing several times. You know, you get this whole summary. Yeah. And I feel like that's what happens here where Odysius within the story then tells his story and and you get the whole history including >> all of the gods and you know all of the like Seisphus and you know all of those stories then are referenced within this one story of him trying to get home.

[00:12:29]Yeah.

[00:12:29]>> I think it's just >> when it I think brilliant. It's it's probably worth commenting that, you know, in English when we say that something is an odyssey, we mean that it's that it's a journey, but the journey part of the odyssey is comparatively small. It that's it's really the just the story within the story that Tanya was just talking about.

[00:12:48]And in terms of the bulk of the text, it's really just that middle >> chunk. But before that, you have chapters about Tmacus.

[00:12:56]>> Yeah. It doesn't even start with Odysius. It's about, you know, the homecoming and dealing with the shooters and Penelope and and that whole drama and really that's the that's the meat of the story is the the situation at home, >> right? Well, I mean to the point where we're talking about movies, right? Movie adaptations of this like there's a recent one that came out called The Return, I think, >> which purely is about that last section.

[00:13:23]It's purely it starts with Odysius walking back into his home >> and it's only that that the the the conflict between like Uracle finding out who he is, Tmicus finding out who he is and and then him taking his home back over from the suitors. Yeah.

[00:13:42]>> Yeah, that's a good there are very clear uh Yeah, >> totally. Yeah, divisions. And it's probably worth pointing out that the real there's sort of two key dramatic tensions that are driving uh the the story forward. The first the most obvious is this hero trying to get home, right? And uh the Greek word for that is nosttos. It's a homecoming journey. We get nostalgia from that is from nosttos plus pain, right? Uh so there's this longing to come home and that's and and we want to see this guy come home through all these trials. But the other side of it is this domestic tension of can he come back and find a faithful wife? Can he um deal with the shooters uh when he comes home? And that's set in contrast to Agamemnon. Many many people will know the story from the Agamenon the famous play. But when Agamemnon came home, he did not come home to a to a faithful wife. He came home to uh someone who had usurped his throne and he's murdered in the bathtub. Right. Uh and >> can I stop you there because I am confused about that. So in the play, Clyde Nestra is the one who kills him in the bathtub, right?

[00:15:06]>> But in the Odyssey, it's her lover.

[00:15:11]>> Yes.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:12]>> Okay. I thought, what if I missed him?

[00:15:15]There's different versions of these common stories, right? Uh and it's important to note that Homer didn't like make up >> these characters or these myths. These were common tales that had multiple versions, >> which really makes the the point that you really need to study these stories and mythology before you read this and it'll be so much richer. Mhm.

[00:15:38]>> U but also I want to go back to you Dan's point about um you have Agamemnon's story and you have Odysius this this tension of can he come back to to you know to the home that he left right uh and sort of as he left it >> and at the beginning of the Odyssey like we are told the story of Agamemnon like it's within the first couple of books >> and it's constantly repeated that contrast and that reference >> and so you know >> and is contrasted with arrestes Yeah. So the but the I mean for your first read you don't really know what's going to happen, right? Like you're you're hopeful that that's going to happen. But you also see all the pressures on Penelope.

[00:16:19]>> Mhm.

[00:16:20]>> You know that she's tried to come up with ways to just extend the time before she has to make a decision. But the suitors are finding that out.

[00:16:27]>> They're putting pressure on her. She's about to be penniles because they keep eating all her food. You know, I mean there's >> Well, and Tymicus is, you know, trying to become a man and he's in this situation >> where he's got all these suitors. I mean, I really feel for him >> because he I mean, he's in a bad because he was a child when his father left and now he's grown up and he can't he feels like he should be the man, >> but it's hard for him to do, I think, when he goes off on that journey.

[00:16:59]>> Well, and that demand of grow up, become a man, >> don't be a little boy anymore, that's repeated in four or five different speeches throughout the the story, that's very put front and center. But his but his mother knows the dangers, right? She he he leaves to go um in search of his father without telling his mother and and gets Ura to promise that she won't tell his mother >> because he doesn't want her worried because she knows the suitors will try to kill him if he's in a vulnerable position, right? Like that's >> I mean that's the challenge of him becoming a man is that he's risking everything to to make that transition from boy to man >> and he could get killed for it.

[00:17:42]>> And his journey is almost a mirror image of Odysius's journey. He he has to go out leaving home to go find his father.

[00:17:50]His father's trying to come home. He's going forward to an unknown future.

[00:17:56]Odysius's story is starting from the end. we know that he's already survived and then he's recounting backwards. So, it's they're and then they're meeting in the middle. It's a very interesting architecture to the narrative.

[00:18:08]>> So, who do you think is the most admirable of the characters >> cuz you've mentioned Penelopey's strength, her fortitude.

[00:18:17]>> Well, she's >> Odysius is clever. You know, they >> is admirable, too. But Odysius is just, you know, if you've read the Iliad, then you know Odysius character. you know, he's just he's kind of quirky. He's he's wily. Um he doesn't mind lying to get what he's after.

[00:18:37]He's he's um he is a hero, >> but you know, he's not perfect.

[00:18:42]>> Yeah. Well, and I I mean, I think I mean I I think I read this story sometime it it was sometime in my youth. I don't remember when, but as a young man, obviously the idea of Odysius coming home and being able to shoot that arrow through the 12 axes >> and then turn around and kill all the suitors like he was my hero.

[00:19:04]>> Yes.

[00:19:04]>> You know, like >> Oh, yeah.

[00:19:06]>> And and that sticks with you, right?

[00:19:07]Like that when you read a story, I think, or hear a story as a young person and you identify with that, you know, like as you get older, your perspective can change, but you always still like that like that ideal has stuck with me.

[00:19:20]the end cuz the end is can be kind of problematic. What what do we think about the end? Is it promoting revenge?

[00:19:27]>> Oh, you know, cuz he just >> Well, I think gave an opportunity for those suitors to leave right early on and Odysius does too.

[00:19:36]>> Mhm.

[00:19:36]>> Later on, right? And if you're I mean, at that point, it's >> I'm taking my home back. I mean, I don't I don't >> And it gets violent.

[00:19:45]They I mean they the narrative really builds up >> a disgust for the suitors and just >> from the beginning absolute need that these guys >> have to die.

[00:19:59]>> Now I think it is worth saying though that this is a this is a pagan story and >> a Christian conception of you know mercy is just not on the table. It's not present in uh in this thought world at all. And you really see it um when he visits Hades and he's with all of those characters and there's no >> um there's obviously >> no redemption there. You know, it's it becomes very pagan >> at that point. you know when he visits Agamemnon and he sees his mother and all all Achilles who again is typical you know Achilles is not my favorite character >> but um I just when I read that I I thought this you know here we are again with Achilles he's um wanting to know about once he finds out that his son was a great hero then he goes running off just thrilled that >> his son's a hero So it's it's still all about pride with him and >> although famously he says the exact opposite in the uh Odyssey compared to what he says in the Iliad. You know in the Iliad he makes that famous choice between fame and fame but you die young or you know a safe return but you die of old age but nobody knows you didn't do any great deeds. Right? But in the uh in the Odyssey, the shade of Achilles from the underworld says, "I would rather be a slave and still be alive."

[00:21:33]>> He does. I didn't really think >> than be a great man and be dead.

[00:21:38]>> That's right.

[00:21:39]>> Right. So he It's like now that he's experienced what it's like on the other side of death. Death is so horrible in that Greek conception that >> he sort of takes it back.

[00:21:50]>> Oh yeah, I did. I totally missed that alto together that I I do remember now in the Iliad where he does choose he chooses a young heroic death but it's like you know come back on your shield >> that was just the you know your question was um whe whether it's promoting revenge but you know the it is it's promoting revenge it's promoting war I I mean, it's just But hold on. But hold on. But part of this also is justice.

[00:22:25]>> Right. Right.

[00:22:26]>> I agree with that. Part of it is, and here's the thing, violent justice.

[00:22:28]>> It is violent justice. And it's easier for us to be nonviolent in a society that actually has strict laws and repercussions for those laws, >> prisons, >> right? But in in the society they're living in, it's the it's the strongest takes what's there, right?

[00:22:42]>> It's also worth noting that, you know, Odysius is the king. Yeah, >> he's not just some private, you know, so it's his household, but it's also he's the ruler of the island. So, he has some obligation as the ruler to dispense justice. And if it doesn't come from him, it's not going to come from anywhere.

[00:23:00]>> And and what would that justice be sort of uh one interesting thought experiment would be how could he have meed out justice >> any other way >> in the situation where he's coming in, he's got no support, right? is his son and his his father, right? Like that's it.

[00:23:18]>> And his father's old and you know, his son's young >> and and so, you know, he he comes in actually in disguise >> because he doesn't know the lay of the land, right? He doesn't have the support. He doesn't think he's got the support because he's been gone for 20 years, >> right? It's the same thing that happens to Richard the Lionhearted, right? Like he leaves on a crusade >> and you know his brother takes the throne and you know everything I mean it's the whole story of Robin Hood, right? goes haywire because the rightful king's not there, >> right?

[00:23:48]>> And so, how does a rightful thing king get back on the throne? Sometimes it's not pretty.

[00:23:51]>> Mhm. And part of that coming back in disguise, the narratively part of the point of that is it's putting to the test how these suitors are going to behave. How do they treat the lowest?

[00:24:05]>> Do they exercise that generosity and that hospitality to a lowly stranger?

[00:24:11]>> Right. Well, obviously they're not going to because the way they treated his wife was not ideal either.

[00:24:18]>> But but the but hospitality is a a big >> theme, >> right? Because I mean, you see that from the very beginning with Salicus going around and and like no wait, you have to stay here for a week cuz we have to treat you right, >> you know. Well, then the same thing everywhere Odysius goes and they're giving him presents and you know it's like you you need to wait a day because so that we can prepare the presents that we're going to give you.

[00:24:42]>> So he needs to come home rich.

[00:24:45]>> So what is it then that we hope or work toward students taking away from this book? You know we we do this what in seventh grade eighth grade? We do it in seventh grade in our school, but in the regular homeschool curriculum, it's in the eighth.

[00:25:02]>> Mhm.

[00:25:03]>> So, as we lead students through the story, what are we hoping they take away? What what virtues? What >> Well, I think Dan's point is a good one that we can easily contrast this with a Christian world.

[00:25:20]Um, so there is a lot of discussion about that, you know, what a pagan world looked like >> and so that is something that, you know, that we've already brought up, but it's also, you know, it is about courage and >> the fidelity, fidelity. I mean, it's there's a lot of great stuff in here. When I teach it to the young kids, Tmicus especially comes out as >> a and and it's hitting them right at a time in their life where they're starting to think about >> becoming, >> okay, I'm not a little kid anymore.

[00:25:57]>> I've got to start taking responsibility for my life and for my family and for what's happening around me. What do I where where do I find that courage to step up and do what I need to do? And yes, it's not a Christian story and we can learn many things by contrasting, okay, what's awful about this world. Um, but that rings true just as much today as it did 3,000 years ago.

[00:26:24]>> It does, which is why we study the Greeks, right? They did figure out a lot of things, and there are virtuous things in here. They're just pre-Christian.

[00:26:36]>> Yeah. But I mean, the Greeks are the ones thinking about prudence and fortitude and justice and temperance and >> and and so, you know, I I I think it would be a loss to approach this book as this is pagan and we want to see the wrong things that are done. There's a lot of good in here. Um, and I mean and and probably the highlight of that because Odysius I mean Odicius as you point out earlier like he is a liar like because >> he's he's very crafty. He's you know I mean he's the reason that the Greeks win the Trojan War, right? Because they >> they in the guise of giving them an offering, right? It ends up being a trap, right? But Penelope is really the one that that has always uh shown as the one that can kind of be to me kind of be held up on a pedestal in some ways without qualification >> because she's doing everything that she possibly can.

[00:27:37]>> Um and what she does is I think what you would expect a Christian to do in that scenario.

[00:27:44]>> Mhm. And she's related to Clyde Nestra.

[00:27:48]So, back to that mirror image between the Agamemnon Homecoming and Odysius's Homecoming, >> the fact that she's the kind of >> exact opposite of Clyde Nestra and her character really stands out and I think that was foregrounded.

[00:28:05]>> Well, let's get on to the topic of translations. We've got a few on the table and I'm sure how you experience the story would vary enormously depending on which translation you use.

[00:28:16]So Tanya, I know you've read the newest one they came out. I I skimmed it, but I didn't read it thoroughly. What was the biggest takeaway between like the >> I like it a lot, but it is more explicit.

[00:28:29]>> I do think it's well written. I can't I don't know Greek, so I can't compare it really as a translation as far as >> accuracy, but it is more explicit. I would not do it with a middle schooler.

[00:28:42]>> Um, which is why Cheryl chose Butler >> Mhm. is because it is the least explicit that she could find.

[00:28:50]>> Um, >> and the biggest difference between even Butler and Wilson's translation is Butler is written in pros >> and Emily Wilson's is written in verse.

[00:29:01]>> That's right. I guess it's verse. It doesn't rhyme.

[00:29:05]>> Well, it's it's amic pentameter.

[00:29:06]Unringiamic pentameter. So, it's the form of Shakespeare.

[00:29:10]>> When I first read it, I read Fagels.

[00:29:12]I've tried to compare the two and I do think they are very these are very similar. This is quite different because >> Okay. So, hold on. You're saying Fagels and Wilson's are very similar. Yes.

[00:29:23]>> Butlers is >> different because it's pros.

[00:29:26]>> Mhm.

[00:29:26]>> And so, it's just a narrative story. So, it isn't a This is more of a direct translation, wouldn't you say, than than the Butler?

[00:29:36]>> I didn't read all the way through the uh translation. I I only looked at passages that that >> just I started reading a book of Bagels and then a book of Wilson and a book of Bagels and a book of Wilson and I finally figured out they were so close together I just >> I just went to this one instead of going back and forth.

[00:29:56]>> I I will say I was reading Butler's and Wilson's >> Mhm. And I actually found if my struggle in reading um unrimed verse or verse that does not lend itself to some form of of rhythm, >> right?

[00:30:15]>> Okay. Now, I am a pentameter. Well, I ams is typically how we speak, right?

[00:30:19]So, it's a natural sort of a natural form of speaking, but the having the line breaks actually cuts up the concepts for me >> as opposed to when it's written in in a pros format where it's just flowing.

[00:30:34]Um, that helps me just kind of it helps it flow better for me. So when I was going back and forth between Butler and Wilson, I actually was the Wilson's vocabulary was easier for me to deal with >> because Butler's just older.

[00:30:50]>> Mhm.

[00:30:51]>> But um Butler's was easier for me to read from a layout perspective. So like with Wilson, >> I just intentionally did not allow any of the line breaks to stop me. See, >> and then it was actually I actually preferred reading Wilson's in that form >> that the line breaks don't bother me. I just keep reading. I >> Yeah, I just if if there are line breaks, I feel like I ought to stop.

[00:31:15]That's the way poetry generally speaking works.

[00:31:18]>> Um and so, but I understand why that doesn't work in this case. I mean, you're translating and trying to translate from another language poetical form in another language to a poetical form in English >> would be very difficult.

[00:31:32]>> Very difficult. And isn't would you agree that all translation is an interpretation? Of course, it has to be.

[00:31:37]>> It's impossible to create a onetoone, >> which is why we want our students to be able to read the original because then they will get it, which we don't make it we don't make it with Greek, but we do with Latin. With Greek, some of our students get some translation, but we we would they would never >> not to that.

[00:31:58]>> They get a pretty good head start.

[00:32:00]>> Yeah, it's a head start. It it will help them if they decide to go to college and take Greek.

[00:32:07]>> They will be ahead.

[00:32:07]>> A big head start.

[00:32:08]>> Yes.

[00:32:09]>> Like her Emily Wilson's first line is tell me about a complicated man.

[00:32:14]>> And it's what in Greek? Poly tropos.

[00:32:17]>> Yeah. That a many turned literally >> but of course you can't translate it that way because that doesn't mean anything in English.

[00:32:24]>> Right. Right. So exactly you it it many essays have been written about that one word drop and how >> there is no exact English equivalent of that. So you have to make some kind of choice >> complicated does sound awfully modern and I don't know that suggests psychoanalysis or something to me which surely isn't in Homer's >> remember how Butler opened but I can check I looked at her the very first line.

[00:32:53]>> Mhm.

[00:32:55]Sing to me of the man muse. The man of twists and turns driven time and off and again off course.

[00:33:01]>> Twists and turns.

[00:33:02]>> A man of twists and turns.

[00:33:06]>> Interesting.

[00:33:09]>> Is if a listener is going to pick up one translation, do you have a recommendation?

[00:33:12]>> If they're young, I would recommend Butler.

[00:33:15]>> Okay.

[00:33:15]>> Um if they I do think that was a wise choice >> because it's readable, non-explicit.

[00:33:21]Um, and and you're you can focus on the story, >> right? But for adults, I prefer the verse, honestly.

[00:33:31]>> I just like to read it. I find it flows >> better for me.

[00:33:37]>> Um, but as far as a translation, I mean, I've my kids, uh, well, my oldest, he started out with Latimore. I don't really know how that compares to these.

[00:33:49]I couldn't find our Latimore at home. So, I mean, I don't know.

[00:33:54]>> I remember trying Latimore when I was younger and it was difficult for me then.

[00:33:58]>> I don't know as an adult >> what it would be.

[00:34:01]>> But that's an older translation, right?

[00:34:02]Like I think Latimore is early earlier 20th century in comparison. Fagel is what 96 what we got there. And then Wilson's is very recent.

[00:34:11]>> Yes.

[00:34:12]>> And so >> and Martin likes Chapman >> as in like >> Yeah. That's a much older one.

[00:34:19]>> That's much older.

[00:34:20]>> Yeah.

[00:34:20]>> Yeah.

[00:34:21]>> There's also Stanley Lombardo which has a lot of modernisms in it.

[00:34:26]>> Well, um, Chapman, who's who wrote the poem on first looking in at Chapman's Homer Homer? There's a there's a poem about the experience of reading Chapman's Homer.

[00:34:37]>> And I don't know who wrote that Keats, I think.

[00:34:39]>> Might be Keats. Yeah.

[00:34:40]>> Oh, that's I had to memorize that in high school.

[00:34:42]>> Oh, really?

[00:34:43]>> Mhm. don't remember any of it, but I do remember that the poem exists.

[00:34:47]>> Yeah, that but Chapman is is very old.

[00:34:50]>> Yeah, but it was a landmark. I mean, it was a it was I mean, Keats had that experience because it was such a >> landmark >> translation, right?

[00:35:00]>> Any final encouragements for someone who's looking forward to seeing the movie? Would you say try to read the book first if you haven't?

[00:35:08]>> I can't imagine how they're going to do this. I know it's >> it's a huge question mark in my mind.

[00:35:14]>> It could ruin it or it could be.

[00:35:16]>> So the big question is so now that Martin missed this whole thing, do we take Dan to the movie instead of Martin >> and Dan and Rose to the movies?

[00:35:27]Um I with all of these sort of like classic stories whether it's the Iliad, the Odyssey, I mean I or I mean even like the Countman >> Kristoh >> and or you know you sit in one of these epic stories and somebody that tries to make that into a movie.

[00:35:48]Me being somebody who's read the book before and knows the story and I'm sitting there watching the movie, I I oftenimes find myself trying to help the people around me. They're like, "What's going on?" And and I'm explaining because I think a a lot of times movie makers will assume a general knowledge of the story and so I would recommend that somebody's going to go watch it. Mhm.

[00:36:14]>> It's at worst it doesn't change your experience of the movie at all, >> but more than likely it's going to help your experience of the movie >> as long as you can put aside >> your your critical side that's going to be like is does it match the book or not?

[00:36:30]>> Because you're going there for an experience of the story >> and afterwards you can go okay I liked it or I didn't like it. But I do think knowing the story before you watch the movie is going to be helpful for understanding what's going on because you can't encapsulate all of this in a in a way that explains it to a new person >> Mhm.

[00:36:50]>> thoroughly. So they could cut it back like I mentioned with Return. They cut it back to a very short period of time, but still you've got the challenges of the names and the you know >> and the gods.

[00:37:00]>> The gods. Yeah. That's my big worry is the depictions of the gods and the religious element in the play because in so many movies >> they just become Marvel superheroes >> and it totally cuts out the numinous the mysterious >> right >> element of >> Greek religious life right um the gods should be strange and otherworldly and terrifying and uh not just you know CGI hide big people zipping around in the sky. Uh >> but but there are there are times where yes, somebody like immediately changes Athena will change from a man to a dove and off she goes, right? Or whatever.

[00:37:42]>> And there's other times where she just plain old disappears.

[00:37:45]>> Yeah.

[00:37:45]>> Plain appears, right? And >> or comes in a dream or in some other mysterious way. where sometimes, you know, in the beginning of the Iliad, Apollo's arrows are just the fact that the men are getting fevers.

[00:38:01]>> So Apollo just is the disease spreading in the camp.

[00:38:05]>> Mhm.

[00:38:06]>> You know, that's how they thought about or like sleep is >> a god in this story that plays a very critical role, you know, and how do you depict sleep coming as as a god, you know? Did you say this movie is rated R?

[00:38:22]>> I don't know.

[00:38:23]>> Oh, somebody said it was rated going to be rated R. If that's true, I would not take children to it. I made that mistake with the Trojan War when it came. Was that the name of it?

[00:38:36]>> Uh, was it Troy? Troy.

[00:38:37]>> Troy. Oh, no.

[00:38:38]>> Troy. Yes. So, my kids weren't old enough to see an R-rated movie, but when we looked at it, so they knew the story.

[00:38:45]They had read they had read the Iliad, you know, they were I mean they were at this classical school. They they knew all the Greek gods and goddesses and that so when I looked at it, it said it was rated R for violence. And I thought, well, that's no big deal because we've been through this thing twice, you know, with both of them and they and they've thought all of the violence in the Iliad, you know, when the spear goes like through their the back of their throats and things. They love that boys.

[00:39:12]So I thought they're not going to mind the violence. So, I take them.

[00:39:16]Well, like 5 minutes in, Helen takes her shirt off and I'm like, >> "Close your eyes. Close your eyes."

[00:39:25]>> I just would not I would definitely see.

[00:39:27]I should have seen it first.

[00:39:29]>> Yeah. And you know what?

[00:39:30]>> Parenting mistake.

[00:39:31]>> There have probably been enough screenings of the movie that there are, you know, on IMDb and different places there are parent guides and it tells you.

[00:39:37]>> Well, I mean, I look >> Oh, really?

[00:39:39]>> Yeah. But it's a different world now than what we were 20 years ago with what's online.

[00:39:43]>> Hopefully things are a lot more clear about what exactly is.

[00:39:46]>> So maybe wait a week, look it up, do your research.

[00:39:49]>> I just wouldn't do it.

[00:39:52]>> But we are looking forward to >> we're looking forward to seeing it and then we will report back.

[00:39:57]>> Exactly. And in the meantime, listeners, if you haven't already, you have time to pick up a copy of the Iliad. I like it on audio.

[00:40:04]>> The Odyssey.

[00:40:05]>> Oh, sorry. You're read. Yeah, that's right. really than Odyssey is better if you've read the Iliad.

[00:40:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:14]And we look forward to hearing from you about what you think about the different translations. So, let us know. We will be back next time. Thanks for joining us today on Classical, etc. by Memorialia Press. If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, or share this episode or comment. We love to hear your questions and your comments. If you want to learn more about Memorial Press, please go to memorialapress.com.

[00:40:42]This has been classical etc. We're so glad you joined us and we'll see you next time.