Are Homeschoolers Socialized Enough?

Added: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]How much socialization is enough or too much? I mean, why are we buying this lie that the only socialization that is enough is being in a school all day long?

[00:00:11]>> That that is such a lie. That is there is nothing to support this.

[00:00:15]>> Welcome to classical, etc. You're in the studio with Memorialia Press.

[00:00:19]>> Let's get the show started. Let's get the show started.

[00:00:22]>> Hey, let's get the show started. Okay, that way this is going to be live. It's going to be what she's reading first.

[00:00:28]Okay, >> we do.

[00:00:29]>> Hello and welcome to another episode of Classical, etc. I'm Jessica Aboud and we've got Paul Tanya and Mrs. Kathy Becker with us this afternoon. Kathy, welcome back.

[00:00:40]>> Well, thank you. Yeah, great to be here.

[00:00:42]>> Yeah, Kathy, you've been on the show several times. You lead our schools division.

[00:00:46]>> Hang on just a minute. This is going to bother her.

[00:00:49]>> Oh, she's got to fix me.

[00:00:50]>> That's helpful.

[00:00:51]>> Okay, are we good? Sorry. Yes, we're good. I really want to make a comment about Judy Dench, but I'm trying to wipe my tongue.

[00:00:56]>> I just know when she watches it back, she's going to be like, "Why didn't they fix my jacket?"

[00:00:59]>> You will tell you that.

[00:01:01]>> Okay.

[00:01:02]>> Yes. Just this morning.

[00:01:04]>> You are so regal.

[00:01:07]>> Wow.

[00:01:08]>> Yes, they do continually. At the gas station last week, on a plane, everywhere I go.

[00:01:13]>> Could you ever fake it? Did you ever just start?

[00:01:15]>> You know, I'm at a point where the this last one at the gas station. I just wanted to say to him, "Oh, yes, >> she's my auntie."

[00:01:23]>> And I was going to burst into, you know, the owl and the pussyat went to see and the whole thing which she recites so beautifully, but I held myself back.

[00:01:32]>> I wonder if >> I think you could do it just as well.

[00:01:37]>> I know. I see it.

[00:01:38]>> Yes. You just want to see it.

[00:01:40]>> Thank you.

[00:01:41]>> Oh, no. No. Is it? Thank you. A lot of you know Kathy 7 years. Yeah. So there we are.

[00:01:49]>> Then I've had people say, you know, in her earlier movies and I'm thinking, and are you covering the fact we're working with this?

[00:01:58]>> Backpedaling a little.

[00:02:00]>> Yes.

[00:02:00]>> Wow. Well, that's majestic. She's majestic.

[00:02:03]>> Well, you know, if I can be majestic, I will claim it. If I can be a dame, I will claim it.

[00:02:08]>> I think you should. That's exactly right.

[00:02:11]>> Woof. All right. Well, uh, Kathy, you lead our schools division, which makes you an incredibly busy woman. You travel quite a bit. You have people all over the country that you're consulting with and leading in schools.

[00:02:28]>> What's one of your projects right now?

[00:02:31]>> Right now, we are polishing up, and this is really for the classical Latin School Association/Schools Division because we work with schools.

[00:02:40]We are polishing up all our teacher certification programs and making sure they're available so administrators can have help in educating their teachers and helping their teachers to be equipped.

[00:02:53]>> Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I I am always I always learn one more thing almost every week that the schools division provides to schools.

[00:03:02]>> It is almost endless the ways that you resource people.

[00:03:06]teacher certifications, >> teacher certification, >> the books and guides, all the ways that you help administrators and teachers.

[00:03:13]>> Yes. So, our job is to support schools so that they can be successful in their work.

[00:03:18]>> Yeah.

[00:03:18]>> We are there for them.

[00:03:20]>> Yeah.

[00:03:20]>> Whatever they need, we want to be there.

[00:03:21]We want to hand it to them.

[00:03:23]>> Wonderful. Well, I've been told I should ask you first what you're reading.

[00:03:28]>> Yeah. I guess she looked at my notes and actually what I read recently. You were peeking. um was Elizabeth Goge. Is that how we pronounce it? Guj. Okay. Cuz it's British.

[00:03:41]>> I pronounced it wrong once.

[00:03:42]>> I read So >> people corrected me on the podcast email.

[00:03:46]>> Yeah. I I was afraid to even say it. I thought yes, this will be wrong. So Guj not nearly as nice sounding.

[00:03:54]>> Okay. So my daughter gave me a collection of books for the calendar year and it was big collection that I'm to read throughout the year.

[00:04:00]>> How fun.

[00:04:02]>> It was so thoughtful.

[00:04:03]>> Is it like seasoning? What was this?

[00:04:05]>> Well, the calendar year, the church calendar. So, you're reading something during Lent. You're reading something.

[00:04:09]Wow. Yeah. All throughout the year. So, these two books were in that group. One was The Dean's Watch, which was absolutely a beautiful, beautiful book.

[00:04:19]>> And it's an adult book.

[00:04:20]>> Yes. It was so wonderful. Oh, it was beautiful.

[00:04:23]>> Okay, I'm going to read that.

[00:04:24]>> Yes. And the other is this one that I've just started by Nyall Williams, Time of the Child. But it looks like I've stepped into the middle of a series.

[00:04:32]>> Oh. Oh, it's in the middle of a series.

[00:04:34]>> Yes, because when I read the forward, then it talked about another book in the village of Faha >> and then I'm thinking this is in the middle of a series. So, now I have to go back and read the other books.

[00:04:47]>> So, here we go.

[00:04:48]>> So, Irish, >> that's why I looked so odd. Is are you liking it?

[00:04:53]>> So far, I'm barely in. I was reading it on the plane and Okay.

[00:04:57]>> Um, yeah.

[00:04:58]>> I'm reading Nile Williams.

[00:05:02]This is happiness which is the first one.

[00:05:06]>> Okay.

[00:05:07]>> And um I'm reading it because floor I'd never heard of him but our friend floor recommended it to me. Um I am not wild about this book but I'm 250 pages in and I keep reading. So, he he is a very good author, but he makes me a little crazy. The way he moves back and forth with time and um it just feels more like a >> like this stream of consciousness thing going on. And this morning I read it was like a page and a half cuz he just stops and chats with you and about a page and a half of talking about how his grandfather tells a story which is all over the place and he said he throws Aristotle's unities or whatever it is that Aristotle did about order out the window. And I thought this is exactly how you tell a story mister. Um, but it is but then but then all of a sudden I'll read a few paragraphs that are just beautiful >> and so I just don't I just couldn't believe it when I saw you were reading.

[00:06:16]>> Is it in a town? Is it in the town of Yes. So see it's a series and I think there are five and the one that this time of the child is like number five.

[00:06:27]>> I didn't know I mean it was in my list of books >> but I don't have that experience at all.

[00:06:33]I think he walked me into this lovely little Irish village and they're in the church and >> it seems like a great place to be at this point. Like he's describing the doctor and his loss and different things and I'm good with him.

[00:06:48]>> Okay. Well, I mean, I'll see, but I am 250 pages in and it is making me a little nervous um that I some it just feels like there's so much chatter.

[00:07:03]I don't know. I just want and he does this is the other thing that irritates me is he says um in imagining this conversation maybe between two people um that he imagines how the conversation should have gone and you've got this whole conversation that he's made up in his head. This is a 17-year-old boy >> and then you have to read later what really happened and I'm thinking just skip the madeup one in your head. I don't need that. just let's just can we just move in a more parallel track?

[00:07:37]>> But >> I do think he can write. I do I think some of that to me feels it always feels to me like uh you're in some kind of creative writing class or something, you know, and you're just trying like trying things out.

[00:07:50]>> Yeah, >> I guess. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:07:54]>> Okay.

[00:07:55]>> But I just don't know what I think. But I'm interested that you're reading the last one. Yeah, I think the first one >> is electricity is coming to >> FAH. Okay.

[00:08:06]>> And uh and so it's going to change >> their entire lives and everything that has been >> um set and unchanging for all these years is now. So you're seeing you know you're seeing that change come about which is very interesting concept.

[00:08:27]>> Yeah. But this book, The Dean's Watch, >> I'm going to work I'm going to read it cuz I love her. So I book, >> what did I read some? It's the dolphin the green dolphin green dolphin street. Yeah, something like that. I don't remember.

[00:08:43]>> It's very good.

[00:08:44]>> Yeah, >> you should read that.

[00:08:45]>> Yeah, I will. She Her writing was lovely.

[00:08:48]>> It is.

[00:08:49]>> It was all I can say. It was a beautiful book.

[00:08:52]>> You guys want to just go have coffee together?

[00:08:54]>> We should. I'm sorry.

[00:08:56]Okay. And I told David this had to be fast because we have a meeting at two.

[00:08:59]So there you're not going to make it.

[00:09:01]Okay. Paul, what are you reading?

[00:09:02]>> I just finished The Violent Bared away.

[00:09:04]>> Oh, did you?

[00:09:05]>> By Flannry O' Conor.

[00:09:06]>> Oh, I s I knew that reaction was coming from that Paul.

[00:09:10]>> It was so great. It was so great.

[00:09:12]>> Really?

[00:09:12]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:09:13]>> I was thinking about that this morning about Planner O' Conor because I feel like I come from that world.

[00:09:20]>> Yes. Well, and that's why Kathy doesn't understand it.

[00:09:22]>> Yes. Yes, that is true because are you saying that's a southern thing?

[00:09:27]>> I was going to say I was raised in the northeast and I live in the west. So yeah, >> so I have to I was at a conference someone um sent me the link for his pastor who is going through all the things about Flannry Oconor and helping people to understand her and I have to attend that online because it's the only way it's going to happen because she makes me sad.

[00:09:52]>> Yeah. And no, >> so I have to walk into this other place.

[00:09:57]>> Yeah. The the violent bared way, the call of a prophet. It's right there.

[00:10:01]>> And it's I mean, it is the story of Jonah.

[00:10:04]>> It is the story of Jonah.

[00:10:07]>> It I I love her, but I feel related to half those people.

[00:10:13]>> Yeah. I I mean, my my grandparents were similar in certain ways, but not to that degree. And so you can see like >> Flannry Oconor is just a difference of degree like it is she takes it.

[00:10:28]>> It's the same like we know these people.

[00:10:31]She just the degree changes. Yes.

[00:10:33]>> And so it's >> but you can recognize it because >> our my grandfather didn't go quite as far as Okconor would. But I definitely recognize that trait >> that wow little bit crazy >> you know. Yeah. It's a different place.

[00:10:50]>> Um, it collides with my happy world of idealism. My memories of a grandfather that I saw once a year was him sitting on the porch singing in Norwegian Rita Rita. You know these songs and it was happy. So, so there we go. Not all of us got that happy.

[00:11:12]>> I have one more I forgot about while we're talking about books. I got this book in the mail from Amazon yesterday by Agatha Christie called The Labors of Hercules. It's a Eric Cuo collection.

[00:11:24]No, I haven't read it at all, but I I was like, I didn't order this. I don't know. I mean, I'm a huge fan, but I don't know why I got this book. And then I found this note that says, "A gift for you.

[00:11:34]>> Salvet Tanya, since MP will release a set of herculean challenges. As a fellow fan of Agatha Christie, I thought you might enjoy her version of Labor Hercules Valet. Bonnie Graham.

[00:11:48]>> Isn't that sweet? That is so nice.

[00:11:51]>> I know. I'm thrilled. Thank you, Bonnie.

[00:11:54]>> You get books from our listeners. I get ties.

[00:11:56]>> I'd rather have books.

[00:11:58]>> This is from a nice >> You did. You did.

[00:12:06]>> All right. Well, let's move on to a listener question.

[00:12:09]This comes to us at the podcast inbox, podcastmemorapress.com.

[00:12:14]If you have any burning questions, we would love to hear from you there. This is from Lindsay. Lindsay says, "Hello, Coror. I so enjoy hearing all of your book recommendations. My to be read pile keeps growing." This question is for Tanya. Tanya, you've mentioned before that you enjoyed the book The Other Bennett Sister. Now that the show has been partially released in the US, have you watched it yet? And what did you think? I read the book at your suggestion and just watched the first three episodes that are out already, none of my friends in real life enjoy this type of book or show, so I'm anxious to hear someone else's thoughts.

[00:12:49]Has anybody watched the show?

[00:12:51]>> I haven't watched the show. Ailen, our graphic designer, came and told me that she was watching the show and she told me not to watch the show.

[00:13:00]>> Oh, really?

[00:13:00]>> Uh she said, "I know you're not going to like it."

[00:13:03]because they've changed it. Um, which she knew would irritate me.

[00:13:09]>> Um, she said really, she's the one who told me to read the book.

[00:13:13]>> She recommended the book to me and I absolutely loved it. One of the best books I've read this year. Yes. So good.

[00:13:20]>> But um, then she said, "You should have watched the show before you read the book." Because you could watch the show if you haven't read the book and it would be great.

[00:13:30]>> And then you read the book and the book is so much better. Oh, okay.

[00:13:34]>> So, if you've read the book, I don't I told her I told Ailina I said I'll maybe wait two years when I've forgotten the book and then I'll watch the show cuz I love shows like that. I would love the show. I think >> except that she thinks it's going to irritate me because it's different. So, I would like to know from Lindsay what she thinks >> and what she thinks about the show if she's going to Ailen's going to finish it, but she said she didn't really care as much as I do.

[00:14:01]Is it just not accurate?

[00:14:03]>> I guess I mean I know they have to change things, but for some reason it really irritates me. I just think, you know, you've got this author that's done this amazing job, but of course the author sold the rights to the book, so they must not have cared, right?

[00:14:16]>> Well, no, that's not necessarily true.

[00:14:19]>> Well, if you sell the rights, then they can do whatever they want, unless you, I guess, can give them the contract that they can't. But but the I mean I would think the the author still cares because there have been famous authors who have sold the rights to be made into movies and then afterwards they're like this is awful. I don't like anything about this.

[00:14:38]Right?

[00:14:39]>> And so I I don't think you can make that assumption, but I I completely agree that like if if a movie is trying to be made about a book or like off of a book, then they should be honoring to that book instead of saying no, no, no, we can do it better. Mhm.

[00:14:55]>> Right. Like that's that's what's aggravating to me about that stuff. I understand that you have to change it sometimes because it's different medium, >> but it that should be evident to the watcher that it was a needed change >> as opposed to just a gratuitous one that they did because they felt like it.

[00:15:10]>> Especially if you change the ending, >> right?

[00:15:13]>> That really irritates me if you change the ending, which we don't know about the other Bennett sister yet.

[00:15:18]>> Right.

[00:15:19]Okay. Well, Lindsay, let us know what you thought of the show.

[00:15:22]>> Yeah.

[00:15:24]on to today's topic. We're actually going to answer another listener question from Abby. And I think this is one that many homeschooling parents, especially people who are probably newer to homeschooling, have heard in one form or another. So, I'm going to read Aby's email and then we can dive in and help Abby. She says, "I've been thoroughly convinced mostly by this podcast that classical education is the best education model. My only choice to acquire that education for my children is through homeschooling as we have no classical schools near us. However, I'm surrounded by homeschooling negative nies who are sure that homeschooling leaves its own more important gaps than the progressive education model. points that have been made to me where where homeschooling falls short are and then she lists a couple so socialization, the importance of classroom discussions, general lack of understanding of what a classroom environment is like and adjusting later on to life deadlines, group dynamics. She says, "Which is more important to forming the child, the educational model or the learning environment? Help me refute the naysayers."

[00:16:34]>> Wow. Well, thank you Abby because that's an incredible list of questions and I wonder if we can start with her last question first because I think it frames up in large part our discussion today.

[00:16:46]What matters more in forming a child, the educational model or the environment?

[00:16:52]>> I don't think we were made to sit in a classroom for eight hours a day for 13 years of our life.

[00:16:58]>> I mean to to be fair, I mean we I work with schools all the time. I'm I'm not trying to say schools are a bad thing. I don't think that's how we were we were meant to be formed, >> right? And that's why for thousands of years, what you had these little tiny small groups, you'd have a tutor that maybe, you know, tutored the one one family's kids or maybe there were a few families that got together, right? You had your one room school houses like those, you know, and and that always had to fit in with life where if it's the harvest and the kids don't come for a month. I mean, I somebody was just telling me recently that they knew they they went to school with the kid that every every year he would he would miss school cuz I think because he was planting tobacco and then when they harvested tobacco he'd miss school because he'd get tobacco poisoning every year and he'd have to recover from it, right? Like this was just part of life.

[00:17:51]And so like for for somebody to say homeschooling is bad because you don't have the experience of having to sit in a classroom for for most of your day and have to answer to somebody else. That that's ridiculous. I just on the face of it I don't even know what to I I don't I can't even give you a coherent answer on that one. But that that what >> passionate Paul you had words on that but I have other words.

[00:18:15]>> Go for it.

[00:18:16]>> Bring them. So this is always hard for me because a large portion of my life was spent homeschooling six children all the way through and then after that stepping into schools. So I have two parts of me >> that struggle with one another. And the people like the homeschoolers who watch this are very committed. They are the committed moms that are doing the thing that are saving the country. like they are the people who get up every morning and know this is our work for the day.

[00:18:47]However, there are many homeschoolers out there who aren't doing that and who need structure and order.

[00:18:54]>> So, when she says here um forming the child, the educational model, the learning environment, of course, it's not either. It's it's both of those.

[00:19:03]>> But I think and now that I work with schools, like I look at the schools and say you need structure and order in this school. You are a mess. This needs to be tightened. this needs to be.

[00:19:12]>> But with homeschooling, we also need to have structure and order. On the other hand, yes, children need to run and play.

[00:19:21]>> I agree with you. I think we can overdo, but I don't think homeschoolers as a rule are overdoing on letting their children run and play.

[00:19:29]>> That was a much more coherent response probably than one I gave. Um, >> well, yours was more passionate, I believe.

[00:19:35]>> Uh, thank you. Um, I think that's >> you get points for passion, I guess. in certain respects, in certain times.

[00:19:42]>> But the I think you bring up a very good point though, and this is what I think some of the naysayers don't understand is, and maybe I'm jumping the gun here, Jess, but even the conversation about um you know, classroom learning or classroom discussion and that's not happening that's not happening in most classrooms.

[00:20:00]>> That's true.

[00:20:01]>> Right. Yes. Like it's probably happening more in a structured home school than it is in a in a in a your run-of-the-mill school because >> especially your progressive education model, which is where the negative Nazis are coming from, >> right? It's, you know, and that's I would invite naysayers to go check out their local schools >> and and ask to go through the hallways and look in the classrooms because when I have done that for for foster children we've had in our home.

[00:20:34]>> It was worse than I thought. And I already don't have a good impression um that stuff's not happening. And so when we talk about structure and order, I mean, what what they're talking about, I mean, I remember um sitting down with the principal and my wife for one of one of these children in our homes and and the ch child's mother was totally in support of this child repeating a grade and we were trying to advocate for that.

[00:20:59]She needed to repeat the grade and the the principal was saying, "Well, you don't understand. grades aren't the way that you you conceive of them anymore because we're meeting each child individually where they're supposed to be at. And so you actually have to realize you're this child's not at the bottom of the the grade and so they're all working on different things and Sarah and I love her to death. She just that sounds like chaos >> and I mean and it is and you go into the classroom and that's exactly what it is.

[00:21:29]There is not a structured learning environment. There's not an expectation that you're participating in a in a large group discussion. There's none of that >> happening on a regular basis.

[00:21:39]>> Well, and then you have the question in say kindergarten through five or six.

[00:21:46]>> Do we really need discussion people?

[00:21:49]This is where we need foundational learning, right?

[00:21:52]>> You don't have those discussions until they're a little older. Then you can begin to discuss. It's it's foolishness to think that a fourth grader is going to have a Socratic discussion.

[00:22:04]>> We are pouring in later on. We will talk. We will discuss and if there's anyone opinionated, it's going to be the homeschooled child.

[00:22:12]>> And we have co-ops all over the place.

[00:22:15]They will and we were talking before ballet this that they have all of these things. They're getting instruction from other people. It is not this cloistered little tunnel. And by the time that they get to, you know, later lower school, middle school, like you're as a parent, you're already being pushed to get those kids out the door, right? Because they want to have their own friends. They want to be out and you know, and so when they need to be having those discussions with with like age children, more than likely you're already doing that because the the growth of the child is demanding that from you, >> right? And that's what she says. She talks about socialization and she has concerns about that homeschoolers are not learning social norms or tolerating differences or exposed to other viewpoints. And you would say there are so many different ways that your child is interacting with people that are >> Oh yes. Yes. I mean I totally get it if that child doesn't leave that house ever.

[00:23:17]>> Yeah.

[00:23:18]>> That's very much a concern. Mhm. And then at that unusual >> and that would be very unusual and and >> that's you know um I was actually just listening to the story of a lady who grew up Amish and she's like >> we had I don't know they had 12 15 something kids in the family and she said across the street was a Catholic family and they had 10 kids and we'd sneak over there and watch TV sometimes you know and you know and I'm not trying to undermine the Amish you know way of life but >> when you have families nearby that aren't exactly like you, which none of them are, right? Everybody's a little different, you're going to naturally have that exposure as well.

[00:24:00]>> So, we could even say the the average child probably generally isn't really at risk of not getting what they need socially to be prepared for the workforce or college or whatever is next for them. they understand people have different viewpoints or you know >> yeah I would say uh they're concerned about tolerating others differences exposure to other points of view the public school child has issues with that >> tolerating differences understanding other people's points of view I mean part of that is childhood and learning you step into doing that as you grow older and you talk to people my main concern with homeschooling in this present today is that our culture affirms everybody. You know, everybody wants to be affirmed. All the likes, all the clicks, all the things. And a homeschool mother needs to keep herself balanced and she needs to not overaffirm her child >> because then they enter the world thinking they are pretty much the greatest thing that's ever been. and then they find out you're kind of just like everybody else as far as we we need to be humble and learn and know we need to learn. I just see I I think that's a concern. Like this mom will do a great job. She's concerned. She's going to grow in confidence as she teaches. It boosts her confidence.

[00:25:24]>> But yeah, my my concern is just make sure as a homeschool mom you do not overaffirm your child because we live in a society of that a society of over affirming. I think her concern about learning societal norms and rules and tolerating others differences. I think that to me is a scary thing for young children that they are when they are thrown into an environment where everything exists and everybody does have, you know, there could be some major differences that they aren't really mature enough to deal with that.

[00:26:01]And so I don't I've never understood because this used to be a big thing when I was homeschooling. You know, this was the thing is well, your children aren't going to be able to um participate in society. Um they're not going to know what it's like to be bullied or you know how to um they won't be equipped to deal with things like that or if somebody's using bad language and they haven't ever been exposed to that. Well, why would we expose young children to that kind of stuff >> knowingly and willingly? Don't wait till they're mature enough.

[00:26:39]>> And and and they and they don't have a sense of who they are >> to know, oh, I'm supposed to tolerate these differences, right? When they're little.

[00:26:48]>> When they're little because they're just going to become like the other, right?

[00:26:52]um because they don't have a sense of identity of this is who I am and therefore this person is not like me and I need to learn to tolerate them or learn to respect them. That's that comes later once they actually have an identity. And so you don't want to go throw them in a melting pot for them to figure out what their identity is. You want to help them develop a strong character >> and then say, "Okay, now there's somebody else that's not like you. You need to learn to respect that." And and I just say, you know, I mean, I'm listening to both of you all who homeschooled and I was homeschooled. And I will say from the point of view of somebody who did not go to school until sixth grade, I went to once classes for third through fifth or sixth grade. Um, I do not recall it ever being a struggle to go, oh, I, you know, how do I act around kids? You know, I mean, we I I grew up, you know, we had an alley behind us. There was a neighbor kid who went to public school. We'd play basketball all the time, you know, or we, you know, play croquet in the yard, whatever, like whatever we had. And, you know, and and we had friends, right?

[00:28:01]Like you learn all of that stuff.

[00:28:05]>> And >> you have friends in church. You It's not like if you're homeschooling, you're just like locked in a room. Mhm. And and actually the the homesooled kids >> what I'm seeing especially in my my sister's family, I mean they're out doing stuff more than your average kid is >> because they have there's so much available now.

[00:28:25]>> Yeah. I mean there's so much available but also like oh hey grandma needs help.

[00:28:28]Let's go help her, right? So you're learning that like not everybody can take care of them and says I've got to go help them, right? I mean my 11-year-old nephew's coming over to mow the grass because Sarah normally does that but she's not feeling well. So he's going to come do that, right? He could be studying. He he probably should be studying, right? But he's learning a corporate work of mercy. Like go do something for somebody else which he would not have time if he were in in school. Right.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah.

[00:28:53]>> Yes. And so many extracurriculars. I know at the the online academy, we've got some families in some pretty rural areas, but they're ranchers or they have livestock or something like that. And so their whole entire family, kids included, are deeply embedded in the community in a lot of ways that they're so committed. We even have been able to give them some elective class credit for some of the things that one of them was, you know, do helping with the accounting for one of the four there. There's so many opportunities that families can seek out >> and you just have to make sure you find them. But that and she and I'm sure Abby is doing that, but then you know it's hard to listen to people judging the way you're choosing to raise your children.

[00:29:33]It's you know I we >> we totally agree with her that all of this is silliness.

[00:29:40]And but it doesn't make it any easier to take >> when you are being criticized for something that is the most important job you're ever going to do.

[00:29:50]>> Well, and and I remember like we were generally done with school by lunchtime.

[00:29:54]>> Yes.

[00:29:55]>> And and I think that's a very common homechool experience >> because you're not doing all the extra stuff.

[00:30:00]>> You're not doing all the extra stuff.

[00:30:01]You don't have to wait for 25 other kids to get their their stuff in order. And so it does look from the outside that you're not educated nearly as much as they are in school.

[00:30:13]>> Mhm.

[00:30:14]>> Well, people used to call me and ask me if I would babysit for them because I was home and I was like, I'm we were working here.

[00:30:22]>> Whereas we will call the neighbor home the neighbor and homeschool family and ask to borrow their kids if one of our dogs gets out cuz she only goes to kids and we when we don't have kids in the house, we're like, "Hey, we need your kids." you know, >> you can count it as being counted as react, right?

[00:30:39]>> Um, and and they're they're they're helpful, right? And I mean, and and we actually do know that family more probably because they're around, >> right?

[00:30:48]>> And and that's that's I think when you look at it from a big picture perspective, >> I mean, yes, they need to be educated academically. They need to know how to read, right, and and and count, and do all all those things that we want them to do. We want them to come out learning Latin. All of that stuff, but all of that stuff has to also be contextualized in the human person, >> right? Yes, I agree with you. And as far as the socialization, how much socialization is enough or too much? I mean, why are we buying this lie that the only socialization that is enough is being in a school all day long?

[00:31:27]>> That that is such a lie. That is there's nothing to support this. on the contrary. And so I feel like this mom is just a great mom. She wants to do the good thing, >> just grow, learn, do all of those things. She will grow as a person because homeschool moms do. They just grow so much >> and her children will be fine.

[00:31:51]>> And just stick to your guns. Just, you know, know that what you're doing is the very best thing that you could do for your children now. And um it's it's nice if you've got support and we we are you know we'll continue to support her. Um and there are other places she can get support as well. Um Cheryl Lo was a big support to me >> when I was criticized. I you know then I could look to her and know that what I was doing was really important and it was the right thing. and she then I knew it anyway, but I sometimes you just need somebody to tell you that it's okay.

[00:32:35]>> Mhm.

[00:32:36]>> Um and as far as being um understanding what a classroom environment is like, our kids are smart. They go to a classroom for the first time. I mean, at our cottage school, sometimes these kids will be seventh, 8th, 9th grade, never been in a classroom before. They immediately understand how to act in a classroom. Mhm.

[00:32:57]>> The teacher sets the rules out at the very beginning and they don't have any trouble sitting in their desk all day with everybody else in their class.

[00:33:05]>> And and a student who was in, let's say, fourth grade and sat in a classroom all day long and next year goes to fifth grade, that teacher still has to go over the rules.

[00:33:16]>> It doesn't matter whether you sat there in fourth grade or not >> because every year that's going to happen. And I was thinking, you know, you have somebody who's been homeschooled all the way through senior year >> and okay, you go to college, you have to sit in like you walk into the classroom, you see a chair, you see everybody else sitting in a chair, you sit down. It's not hard. It's really not hard. And you know, if you're going to Sunday school or if or you're going to any kind of activity that's a group activity, it's like a classroom and as a child, you're going to be exposed to that stuff.

[00:33:49]>> Yes.

[00:33:49]>> What would you say though? So, so we've covered the fact that most kids get socialization, whether it's their faith, community, whatever, sports, extracurriculars, but when it comes to the academic setting, how does she or can she create an environment where the student does have someone else to talk to or do you know what I mean? Like group discussions, right? Like you she can't literally recreate a classroom setting. And there are some advantages we would say to a classroom setting that you can't exactly replicate. Maybe she's not trying to replicate it, but there are some things that the student just wouldn't get in the academic setting specifically. Are there ways that she could >> There are eventually. I think when they're young, it's just like Kathy said, you're not going to have a Socratic discussion, but you are going when you're reading Charlotte's Web with a third grader, you are going to discuss >> the major themes in that book with that child one on-one or even with siblings.

[00:34:48]But um as they get older, I do see an advantage to finding a situation. And sometimes, I mean, for my kids, sometimes it was their youth group at church where, you know, there were some really good discussions being >> um led by an adult, but um but that like the online academy just to take a class or two >> is helpful because then you're with a group and and hearing a discussion. I was really thankful for my um kids having like Martin >> for a teacher and and being able to have that even though >> they were at home with me three days a week. It was nice to have that.

[00:35:27]>> Um there's that Vita Bayata >> group that has just where the kids can just come together and discuss.

[00:35:35]>> There are all kinds of things places now where you can get group discussion. I would not worry about it when they're really little.

[00:35:43]>> Yeah.

[00:35:43]>> After that, there are if you feel like that's an important thing that you can't >> do with them. I mean, I would have really struggled >> to read everything that they needed to read and have a discussion about it.

[00:35:56]>> Yeah. I think that as they get older, and you see this a lot, homeschooling parents will reach out for helps. You know, I'm going to someone for math. I have this tutor. I have That's great.

[00:36:08]you're sitting under someone else >> and you're learning from them and then the school side of me wants to say >> it's okay if you're homeschooling and you're loving it and you do really well and then you get to the upper levels and you feel like this is beyond me. It is better to save the relationship with your child and put them in a really good classical Christian school than to try to struggle through and and not be able to handle that. And and I mean I my mother it was when my oldest sister reached I think high school. My mother said I've taught you everything I know.

[00:36:44]>> And I love that you know like you need to go and and and different people jump into homeschooling for different reasons. Right. And and what is pretty clear with Abby is that she >> she is homeschooling because she thinks this is the best educational environment that she that she can right now. Right.

[00:37:02]I mean, my parents initially started because when my oldest sister went to kindergarten and she she came back being belligerent towards our us her siblings and like we don't want her learning this social stuff. I mean, they were antisocialization on that front, right?

[00:37:17]That's right.

[00:37:17]>> Um, which was smart, right? But that meant that once they kind of when mom felt like she'd gotten to the to the point of I've taught you everything I know, they weren't against schools. It was about finding the right school >> and and so homeschooling can be for a season. It does not have to be we start this kindergarten and we've got to go all the way through 12th grade.

[00:37:38]>> But it can be all the way.

[00:37:39]>> So how did how did you manage that when you were homeschooling high schoolers?

[00:37:44]>> Um well for one thing I stepped into homeschooling not from a negative perspective but a positive. I had been reading some research and books on child development and of course it was the better late than early phase. all the Raymond Moore things. And so I thought, "This is so beautiful. Why would we not do this?" It really didn't have anything to do with the school, the public school or anything. And I actually think that's healthier because when you come to the difficult day, you're not doing it to escape reactionary. You're doing it because you're drawn to the good thing.

[00:38:17]And so you stay with the good thing. And then as they get older, of course, we lived in the west and you know, our boys worked on ranches in their teen years and, you know, did those sorts of things. But yeah, um, you do sometimes reach out to other people. I mean, with our last two, yes, I had someone helping with math. We had a literature co-op on Fridays, so they did have that discussion.

[00:38:39]>> They were reaching out and they were with other people. Yes, definitely.

[00:38:44]I tried having discussions with my kids at home >> as a homeschool mom. They were never interested in hearing from me. They were never I mean it was like I remember one time I don't know why this is so clear but we were talking about the Declaration of Independence and I was you know going through it line by line and I was so excited and I looked up and they were both like what are you it was kind of like when I tried to read Tom Sawyer to them out loud and couldn't do the dialect. You know, sometimes you it's just a fail. Sometimes it's a fail.

[00:39:14]>> But but I will say that I remember having conversations with my sisters and going, "Why is mom so passionate about X, Y, or Z?" Like, we couldn't get it.

[00:39:30]But what it did communicate to us all was this is important. We don't understand it. And years later, I go back and go, "Oh, that all that's all important to each one of us now."

[00:39:42]>> Well, I hope that my children have recognized how important the Declaration of Independence is. Um it it is it is important but um the one I was Kathy you were talking about um Friday co-ops literature having somebody with math >> you know and and just the struggle sometimes between the child saying like I don't respect you in this field if that makes sense or like or like that external accountability and that's one of the things that that she says Justin to external authority is generally speaking like at some point that struggle comes up I think with every homeschooling family >> because the parent is not just the parent but the parent is also the teacher and the grader and all of this other stuff >> yes and it's good to have those other people in there >> too and it's not that >> you know the naysayers are thinking well it's only ever you and they don't realize that at some point the parent is going to be faced with this and is going to is going to reach out to somebody else and say, "Hey, >> even reaching out to the neighbor, right? Like I've got a next door neighbor that if I was if I had kids homeschooling, I'd be like, "I need you to teach music, right? Like cuz I hear you playing your trumpet for fun over there. You know, I know you were in bands. Like you know this stuff, right?"

[00:41:01]Like that's all it takes. But then it gives some sort of external accountability to say >> I don't like you getting your math done isn't for me. You getting your math done is because Mr. Smith is coming here on Tuesday and he's going to expect you to have this done.

[00:41:15]>> It's so good. I mean, I play piano. Did I teach my children piano? No.

[00:41:21]>> I have someone else teach that musical instrument because you can't teach everything. You You don't want to just be there all the time. They have to reach out to somebody at some point. And it's just better. It's good to bring people into your sphere, but you do that at a certain time, right? You just do that. And then when they're all grown, they give you this collection of books for the calendar year and your life is great.

[00:41:46]>> That's right. They are.

[00:41:48]>> And that I mean that's the ultimate thing is that we know now enough people have homeschooled long enough. We know these kids are successful adults and they go to college and colleges love them.

[00:42:01]>> You know, we used to have to be really afraid because we didn't have an official transcript. That fear is gone.

[00:42:07]M >> we no longer have to be afraid because homeschoolers make amazing college students and colleges love them.

[00:42:13]>> So and they they I mean we are hiring students that graduated from here and they are fine. We've hired people that were homeschooled all the way through and they make great employees. Mhm.

[00:42:29]>> So it, you know, just be confident knowing that that you are doing the very best that you can for your children.

[00:42:37]>> I think that's a good note to end on. I Yeah, with the future in mind, too.

[00:42:42]>> The future in mind >> to bring some hopefully some peace.

[00:42:45]Well, >> Abby, thank you for your thoughtful questions. It was it was a a joy to and and passionately address them.

[00:42:54]>> That's great. And thank you, Kathy, for sitting down with us. I appreciate your time while you're here.

[00:42:58]>> This is great to be here.

[00:43:00]>> Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for joining us. We'll be back next time.

[00:43:04]>> Thanks for joining us today on Classical Etca by Memorialia Press. If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe or share this episode or comment. We love to hear your questions and your comments. If you want to learn more about Memorialia Press, please go to memorialapress.com.

[00:43:24]This has been classical, etc. We're so glad you joined us and we'll see you next time.