I debated a muslim on the Dr. Daf Show

Added: 2026-05-24

[00:00:00]My next prompt is the Quran is the final revelation of God.

[00:00:06]>> My name is Kora.

[00:00:07]>> My name is Shanasa.

[00:00:08]>> My name is Danielle Olivia.

[00:00:10]>> I'm Marian. My name is Belle.

[00:00:12]>> All right. Perfect. Uh the reason why I picked this prompt is I mostly tried to pick prompts pertaining to Islam just so everybody can get their word in in terms of why they disagree and so on and so forth. But the main reason why I believe that the Quran is the final revelation of God is because I believe that it contains content that only God could have known. You guys obviously agree because I believe in second Peter it actually says explicitly that everything that is prophetic and spoken from a prophet is going to be initially from the Holy Spirit. Right? That's written in second Peter. So if there is prophetic content and so on and so forth, according to you guys, it's going to be coming from God. There's a multitude of reasons why I also believe in this, but I want to hear your thoughts. Why don't you guys believe that the Quran is the final revelation of God?

[00:00:54]>> Yeah. And I actually to almost agree with you. So the miracle of the Quran is that Muhammad is like illiterate, but he gets all these things right. Right. And I don't want to talk about the theology that he gets right or you know morals that he gets right. I want to talk about the stories of the prophets because the Quran is 6,000 plus verses and it contains 1100 verses about stories of the prophets. That's a whole one sixth of the Quran. Meaning if he gets any of those one sixth of the Quran stories wrong then he's not a prophet. Right?

[00:01:20]And so for example in uh 12:3 this is the chapter of Joseph right Allah is saying before this Muhammad you didn't know anything about the story of Joseph and he reveals 98 verses in detail about Joseph and he closes this chapter in verse 111 by saying this is a confirmation of the previous scriptures and a detailed explanation of all things. So it's a confirmation also in its details. And so I read the 98 verses, but then when I go and I search the Torah's version of Joseph, I find incredible amounts of differences and they're irreconcilable, too. You know, sometimes it's like, oh, maybe he was this age and like, no, like they're irreconcilable. And there's 944 differences just in those 98 verses of Joseph. And to me, that that's really hard to reconcile. Um, and the only reason Muhammad would be a a true prophet revealing the correct Quran is that if the Quran's account of the prophets do match up and you probably know verse 10 verse 94 he says if you're in doubt go and read or go and ask those who read the scriptures >> and the context of that is right before it's stories of Moses, Noah, Jacob sorry not Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Noah, other prophets and then like when the Israelites are like settling in in the promised land all these things which are all stories you can find in the Old Testament. And so if the people in the seventh century are in doubt that Muhammad's revealing all these stories of the prophets, they have to go and read the previous scripture. And so when we go and look at not only the seventh century text, but the Dead Sea Scrolls from the 250s and the first century, not even an even extra biblical text, right?

[00:02:48]You have Pho of Alexandria. He's a Greek philosopher, no motive for religion. Um you have the Roman historian Josephus.

[00:02:53]And then you have the Codex, Alexandrinus, Syriak, Bashida in Syriak, Greek, Latin, all these different all these different languages all talking about the same story of Joseph way before Muhammad's time. Muhammad comes with 98 verses of complete contradictions.

[00:03:07]>> Okay, perfect. I want to touch on that.

[00:03:08]It's interesting that you brought up specifically Surah Ysef or the story of Joseph. So, we believe that the Quran is a confirmation of the previous scriptures. It's detailed everywhere.

[00:03:18]However, we believe that the Quran comes and it corrects aspects of the previous scriptures that were changed by the hands of man. For example, we have this verse 15. Wait, hold on. So, in surah 5:15, we have detailed in the it says that the Quran comes to correct the alterations and the changes and so on and so forth. And it's interesting that you brought up the story of Joseph because that's also an instance of the Quran correcting the Old Testament. Let me ask you in the Old Testament where it talks about Joseph's story, is the sovereign in his time addressed as a pharaoh or a king in the Bible?

[00:03:52]>> So you're talking about the anacronistic um putting of Pharaoh's name, right? So the way you >> I'm I'm No, no. What I'm asking is I'm just asking is is he addressed as a pharaoh or a king?

[00:04:01]>> In the Torah?

[00:04:02]>> Yes. In the pre in the Old Testament.

[00:04:04]>> In the Old Testament, he is addressed as Pharaoh because we don't believe that.

[00:04:08]Well, I don't know me personally, I believe Moses wrote the Torah, right? He he it was revealed to him. But I don't think that he compiled it. Does that make sense?

[00:04:17]>> Sure.

[00:04:18]>> So I think it's okay that later on someone wrote in the word pharaoh. I know like it doesn't come until later.

[00:04:22]Do you know?

[00:04:22]>> Wait, so if you believe that it's divinely do you believe that the Torah is divinely inspired?

[00:04:26]>> Yes.

[00:04:26]>> Okay. So you believe that somebody can come in and add a word into the Torah and change it from king to Pharaoh and it can still >> someone add the word crucif.

[00:04:35]But but don't you agree that if something is divine revelation, it can't be changed by the hands of man?

[00:04:40]>> No. No.

[00:04:41]>> So you believe Wait. So you believe >> we have different standards of how scriptures reveals.

[00:04:44]>> Okay. So, so you believe that something can be divine revelation also simultaneously be corrupted because and I do want to let you guys hear. So corruption of a text is defined as an addition, emission or alteration done to said text by somebody that is not the author. So do you guys agree that a text can be corrupted and also simultaneously be from God? What's interesting is you touched upon um surah 6 vers15. Correct.

[00:05:06]Surah 6 vers15 says that Allah's words cannot be changed. What's interesting is if you read that verse in context, verse 114 says that that's talking about the Quran. So 115 says that these words cannot be changed. 114 says that the previous revelations were not God's words.

[00:05:20]>> No, I believe that the previous revelations were God's words.

[00:05:21]>> Does the Quran that the previous revelations are God's words? I just want to know.

[00:05:25]>> Yeah. Wait, hold on. Yes. The previous scriptures are God's words. However, Allah does not promise to preserve the previous scriptures. Why? Because they're not meant for us.

[00:05:34]>> Very convenient. How come that's the problem with that?

[00:05:36]>> I ask what was preserved. Like so only let me conced this okay so some of some of it was preserved some of it wasn't right so can you can you list some things that were preserved for example the stories of the prophets >> yeah you can say the aspects of the stories of the prophets because we believe in something within Islam and it's also quite interesting because this is >> aspects of it so not all of it >> yeah aspect >> that's actually incorrect according to the Quran can I tell you >> no no no according to the Quran it actually says explicitly right it says that these um these previous scriptures were altered in some ways it says in surah 5:es 13- 15 it speaks about the children of Israel changing the words around. So it's not talking about necessarily >> is it talking about textual corruption?

[00:06:10]>> It's talking about corruption vaguely.

[00:06:12]So it doesn't specify textual nor >> not perfectly. We have very >> very good >> not perfectly. Okay.

[00:06:18]>> Very we have very good Torah that are preserved from way before that. And so if a group of Jews actually IB even says this with two vers 7078 where there was a group of Jews who knowingly corrupt the scripture, right? And so if you know the truth, how do they know the truth?

[00:06:32]The text has to be there. So >> yeah, the text was within the time of Moses, right? Because verbally, >> wait, no, no, not by necessity. Because the Quran specifies that the Torah was given, it was entrusted to a group of individuals to preserve. The Quran specifies that it was and then it was also entrusted to John Baptist. No, no, that the Quran says it was. Wait, no, no. The we're talking about what the Quran says. The reason why, and I want to tie it back to what we were talking about, which is consistency and confirmation, right? Because she said that the Quran confirms the previous scriptures and the Quran says that Allah's words are not changed. the verse that she brought specifies which means that in >> I wouldn't use that verse for my argument.

[00:07:10]>> Yeah, I I'm just addressing it because I didn't get to fully before you jumped in. So, um Surah 6 115 when it says God's word and this is going to tie into what you said because we're talking about corruption now and whether or not God's word can be changed. God's word in this instance is not unrestricted. It is speaking specifically to the Quran and about the Quran. It's not speaking about the previous scriptures because even if in some hypothetical instance if we had the entirety of the Torah and the Injil with us in our laps it would have been abregated. It wouldn't have been binding upon us. But just to touch on your point because >> what does confirmation mean? Could you just define?

[00:07:44]>> Yeah, confirmation means that you can say that it has divine origins. Now >> what's the Arabic word for confirmation?

[00:07:49]>> What what do you mean?

[00:07:50]>> Like when it says it comes to confirm the previous scriptures.

[00:07:55]>> Okay. So in 1211 it's a different one.

[00:07:56]It's task. I'm probably butchering the >> it's it's variations of the same word.

[00:08:01]>> Yeah, it's it's variations of the same it's inah3. It's in for example surah 5 and it goes on but you confirmation doesn't mean that you say that every single word in a specific uh scripture is preserved because we as Muslims and you might have heard this verse before believe that although your revelations have been corrupted in some way which you also agree with. You believe that there are instances where there are things that were changed later.

[00:08:25]>> Yeah, I know your stance. We believe in something called general confirmation.

[00:08:28]>> Very good. So what so but so I'm trying to press here. You said general, right?

[00:08:31]So not all of maybe prophecies of >> Yeah. What we have today some of the stories of the prophets but I want to bring up so 2 verse 252. Okay.

[00:08:39]This is talking about stories of the prophets again. So for example Saul, right? Because you believe Saul was a prophet. And so what happened in two from two 246 to 252? It talks about Saul's story. It says that Saul and his army charged at Goliath. It also said that he tested his army with a river, saying, "If you drink from your hands, you're with me if you're not." And then it also says that the sign of his kingship was that the ark of the covenant would come to him. If anyone has read the Old Testament from anywhere in the world in any language, they would know that those three things are completely completely divergent from what the Torah says. And then I imam al-rai and uh Ib kir they have a commentary on 2 vers52 which says these revelations are revealed by Allah and you Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam are truly well it doesn't say truly are a messenger and so the commentary on that verse says and they're coming in the 13th century by he's says uh these details sorry this story is conforms to the exact manner at which they still have in their books today. That's what Ib says. Immazi says there are no differences in this. He says there's no differences. And so even your scholars think that during the time of Muhammad and even in the 13th centuries that the Old Testament stories from both books should be the same. That's what Kafir says. That's what I imazi says. I you can go look. I'm not going to deceive you. Your soul's on the line. Okay? I've read the taps in Arabic as well. I don't read Arabic, but I've confirmed it. And so I just want to say that to you and then I'll just add this last point. The again the the miracle of the Quran according to you guys is that Muhammad is illiterate but he gets all the details correct and we see that all over the place and so he gets he gets thousands and thousands of details irreconcilably incorrect in the stories of the prophets and I as a Christian I can never come and say he is from God because that just doesn't make sense.