Stop Hiring People You Like | John Pezoulas

本站添加: 2026-05-22

[00:00:05]Welcome back to the podcast. You know, today we've got John Pizzoulas with us.

[00:00:08]Look, the the industry's number one recruiter. What you're going to love about John is he is he has a 95% placement uh of of executive. Look, if you want looking for the right job, like he's not a job, but the right job. John is the guy who's going to show you how to do that. And today, we're going to talk about all the things that are affecting what's getting you stopping you from getting hired right now. why you are not getting the right job you're looking for or you know what recruiters you're working for and why they're not getting the right jobs. Uh John, welcome to the show today.

[00:00:37]>> Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:00:39]>> You know, in a world where AI is dominant and everybody's kind of going 100 miles an hour, uh you know, what what does it mean in a world? What what do people need to know about AI as they're looking for their next placement?

[00:00:53]>> Well, I think there's two sides of the AI equation, right? there's what skills do you have with AI as a candidate that you need to improve because it's very high demand. Obviously, every company wants to integrate it. If you're an executive that's looking for the next role, the the one of the questions the interview will ask you is are you familiar with AI? Do you have any certifications? Do you know uh how to implement it into our workflows? Right?

[00:01:19]If you're an ops COO, for example, they're going to ask you how to bring AI in to uh their workflows and so on.

[00:01:26]Right? So there's the candidate side and then there's the AI on the business side where you are you're integrating AI perhaps into your ATS or into your recruitment process and the problems that can arise from that and are we seeing the ROI by doing this? I'd say it's um we're in you know it's like the wild west right now. There's a lot of mistakes happening. um you're seeing AI creating hallucinations and discrimination part of the process and bias like it's um it's going to take a while to sort itself out. So no one really knows let's say what was really going to happen but I'd say uh right now it's causing probably more problems than than good until it gets fixed up and and and you know set up properly. AI governance is a big issue as well and I talk about this quite a bit. So, >> you know, I I just had a meeting with with a guy who said, uh, you know, our company, we're we're we're staying out of we're staying out of the AI world. I said, well, that's interesting. You know, in in today's world, uh, you know, just about every brand, every every every podcast we're having, every every entrepreneur is moving forward on AI stuff at at a 10x mode, you know, but, uh, this guy this morning is like, "Nope, we're intentionally not doing it.

[00:02:38]Uh, we're we're kind of doing old school. We're going to stay old school and we're going to let the bleeding edge go first and we might we'll try to be there with the leading edge, but we're not going to be on the bleeding edge of it now. So, I I I get how I get what you're talking about, right? I get that there's a lot out there, you know, but the question becomes is if if an executive doesn't get into AI, doesn't get into uh prompt engineering, doesn't get into agentic, you know, uh uh phil look every every company that's out there is trying to implement all these agents, right? Right. I mean, I think every department in our company right now are are are running to, you know, put agents in every department. Um, you know, what what you know, how does that affect someone trying to get hired?

[00:03:21]>> Well, I mean, it affects you in the sense that like if you don't have it, someone that does have that skill will have the leg up on you in the interview process, right? It's like that shiny disco ball everyone's running towards right now. You're the squirrels chasing these shiny things. uh being an early adopter of AI is is obviously the part where there's going to be the most issues and so on. And so if you're an executive looking for a role, you can say, "Look, I'll help you do it right."

[00:03:47]There's a lot of mistakes that can happen with implementing AI. And if we don't do it right in HR or ops or anything else, uh you're going to see a lot of problems, right? Some people rush and just implement something and they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in AI implementation, right? Um, so you know, you you you want to make sure that you're getting an ROI on on what you're doing. And so far, a lot of companies are uh falling flat with that. So if you can help navigate that for the business you're going to, that's definitely a skill set and not everybody has it, right? People are resistant to learning and so just keeping an open mind, I think, and uh and learning as much as you can. You know, it was about eight years ago. I was at a convention and I was in this room with about 300 people and I was arguing about AI. I was, you know, I mean, construction. So, I was like, you know, you can't bring AI to construction. Look, look, it's and this guy called me out in the middle here, middle of a room, right? 300 people in the room and he and he and he's and I'm stood up and he's and he's going, you know, sir, I and he and he goes and these are the words. He he goes, you're an effing taxi driver. I go, what? What?

[00:04:53]I first of all he was cussing in a room at me and I'm like whoa I was a little offended. I what do you mean? He goes well look you're a guy who invested in a shield and you're not looking to convert over. I said what what what what are you talking about? So after he did that, it really got me into a place where I started to look at AI like in a whole another way and it it did open my eyes.

[00:05:15]But you know, a lot of us have had to change for a long time and that guy put me up against the fence and you know that was you we're talking you know 2018 and I'm I'm sitting there looking at you know um I the amount of change that's happened because of that conversation was one of the best things in the world that ever happened to our organization. just really got that got us now on on a on a pretty cool path, but it it took someone kind of calling me out on it.

[00:05:43]>> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of resistance. And it's funny cuz in the construction industry, I mean, they're the most one of the few like few industries that's still stuck in like the paper era where they're still dispatching people with paper. It's, you know, there's not the technology is not there yet. They're really behind. So there's a lot of ways to improve the construction industry, let's say, but you have the old school guys that haven't retired yet that, you know, this is how we do it and and so on. Like I get that, you know, and that's I I used to staff in industrial for years. So, uh the amount of places you go in, you're like, "Wow, this is like the 1980s over here where they're working, you know."

[00:06:20]Um so yeah, I mean, look, it's it's going to take a while for everyone to get on board. There's a multigenerational offices too where you have like three or four generations of people working and Gen Z loves AI and these social media and stuff but as you get older like you know people over 50 it's like yeah they're resistant to change it's like learning having to learn the whole new system and you know what was if it ain't broke don't fix you know don't fix it if it ain't broke like kind of thing. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's tough. It's going to take a while.

[00:06:53]It's a transformational thing that's happening.

[00:06:55]>> It's an interesting it's an interesting, you know, little transition, you know.

[00:06:59]Um, as we as we start to look down the road, you know, you're you're working with executives. What's one of the biggest uh maybe mistakes that an entrepreneur can make when they're looking for executives, right? When you're looking for the right team and you're looking for the right, you know, to bring the right people on. I mean, people always say, "Get the right people on the bus and get the wrong people off the bus." What's the biggest mistake they make with getting the right people on the bus?

[00:07:22]>> I think uh and this is it's hard for some founders and CEOs to hear this, but um if you're not a good recruiter, you know, and you're not you don't feel confident in your recruiting skills, then don't be recruiting because then you're hiring by your vibes, right? How you feel about someone. And most times someone's vibe or you know rapport and so on doesn't mean that they're a good employee. It just means oh you like them. If you want to hire a clubhouse full of people you like go ahead. But if you want to hire a company that's going to push the needle you got to you got to have some proper vetting. And if you don't know how to do that that's where a recruiter comes in. Right. And not anyone has the time either to spend you know several hundred hours researching and you know looking to the competition building hunt lists and so on. So, um I think that's the big difference is, you know, um it takes your time and it takes your time away from uh revenue producing activities that you could be doing instead, right? That's another thing is the opportunity cost people don't look at. You know, what did I burn spending two weeks trying to find a sales manager and then I hired a buddy because it was a referral through a friend, right? Oh, this is how a lot of hiring goes on.

[00:08:36]Buddy, Buddy that I know at the at the club referred me to the sales manager and I hired him because he's known. Now, is he the right fit for the company? Who knows, right? But he was a referral. So, I trust them because it's, you know, so this is how a lot of hiring happens. And in most cases, I'd say you're not hiring the best uh person for the job because referral networks are limited. You're hiring people that you like. You're hiring people that are the same culture, I'd say, as you cuz you all hang out together. But that's not always the way to hire for u you know if you want to corporatize your business that's not the way to do it.

[00:09:11]>> Well, I think that's one of the biggest fundamental mistakes that we all get blindsided. We or we get too comfortable and we hire people that are like us. And I I tell people, no, find someone that's different than you. Find someone that that that you know, especially maybe the opposite of you, right? someone that uh you know fills in the blind spots that you can't see or you know someone that's you know but often times I'll even see it here at at the co group where a manager will hire you know a very similar looking person or very similar acting person you know young guys tend to hire more young guys you know and and I'll look at them and go guys you probably need some you know depth of weight with with you know your next hire needs to be someone with some senior knowledge and and just the resistance I I don't know if they're just afraid because a person might know more than them it's their ego or or What? But I I you know, one of the biggest trainings I do for the young folks here say, you know, look, you want to find someone who fills out your team in the places that you don't.

[00:10:06]>> Oh, for sure. I mean, I think um the biggest thing we're seeing right now is a lot of agism for people over 45, 50, you know. Um there's a lot of agism at hiring. That's the one ism I think that's still happening. You know, we we talk about all the different discriminations that could be happening in the in the the employment world, but I think the biggest one is is agism. And you're you're missing out on a lot of good experience, as you said, right?

[00:10:30]People that have a variety of experience that they can bring to the table. So, this is really what comes down to like navigating your own bias that you have because everyone does have their own biases towards certain things. Oh, I want someone from an Ivy League school.

[00:10:46]I want someone my age. I want someone that likes the same things as we do. You know, these are all biases that come into play and um this is where using a third party recruiter, we we try to be more neutral and uh we try to be aware of your own bias when we're bringing candidates to you. So, it's all part of that a little bit more. So, look, folks, I want you to hear what he's saying.

[00:11:07]Look, John's really probably one of the biggest impacts you have to who you hire because you you're more someone you're comfortable with or someone you want to hang out with at the clubhouse as opposed to who you hire that's the right fit for the organization. Now, John, is the problem that the person that's hiring can't see that because they they you know, if they could, they'd be filling in that gap.

[00:11:33]Yeah, I think a lot of times uh there's a lack of awareness maybe for um or or they they have that bias of well, it's always worked this way. It's always worked this way. I've always been I' I've always had good hires when I go through my referral network or I've always done well when I hire this type of individual for a salesperson, right?

[00:11:54]I see this in sales a lot where a whole sales team can be a clone of each other.

[00:11:59]You know, there's there's 20 people.

[00:12:01]They're all young in their 20s and uh certain demographic and certain >> I see it all the time. Walk in any fast food restaurant. If the manager is black, the staff is black. If the manager is Hispanic, the staff is Hispanic. If the manager is white, the staff, it is such a biasy. And here I don't I don't I look I don't think they're intentionally being racist. I just they're comfortable with people that are like them. And I think we do that across the industry. If if you look at, you know, how how is that impacting your group and and what's how's that slowing down your organization?

[00:12:35]>> Yeah, I think it just it creates a culture, right? And as the culture is built, it's harder to change the culture once it's built than doing it right from the start. I think that's the biggest thing, right? You see a company with 50 people and it's all a certain demographic. I think one of the things we're also seeing now which is unfortunate is politics coming into the workplace where we're seeing companies that if you're not aligned with our side left or right or whatever we don't want you as part of our team and that's just like you know you got to have a card when you come in and you know blue or red card and but that's that's honestly something we're seeing with some companies where um they're bringing their politics to work everything's so you know intense lately you know and and we're not it's just that >> John that's the that's the that's the part of humans that are just ridicul it's holding you back right that companies if you if you're hiring someone because they have a red card or a blue card you're a special ed person all right just it's it's one of those places where you you got to look at go really that's what you found important when you're hiring somebody as opposed to their work ethic and their skills and their ability to get things done >> to some people. It is though. You know, I've had people straight up tell me if they have pronouns in their profile, we're not interviewing them or if they're um you know, if they're right leaning, we're not hiring them either.

[00:13:59]It's like it goes both ways. It's >> No, I got here and and I can get how they can be distracting and and how you know, look, I don't care what you are.

[00:14:07]Just are you willing to come to work at the company? Are you willing to work real hard? Are you the type of person that wants to pull your head out of your gatokus and go get some done?

[00:14:15]Right. I mean, when when we're looking for people I'm looking for aptitude, you know, I'm looking for people that have got the desire to go and and and and push past their own their own even comfort zone, right? And if you know, when I interview people, I'm looking at all right, what have you done and what are you are you up to being because we're look, we're going to lean on you here, right? Our organization is, you know, it never been better. The company culture, you know, we had an issue with somebody gossiping around here. It made it about an hour. It made in about an hour and there was a like a get together like, "Yeah, you will never do that again. We don't do that in this organization. It's toxic. Wherever you picked that up from in your life, it doesn't happen at this organization because it just undermines your ability to be in a room with people comfortably."

[00:14:57]>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it culture starts from the top down, right?

[00:15:01]So, it's really just modeling the ray for your people and uh and making sure that the levers that you bring in around you are sharing those values, right? So um part of our process sometimes is doing like a values assessment. There's several uh testing you can do in assessments to to determine okay what is everyone's values are they aligned in terms of the value they bring not only the value they bring but the values that they have internally right honesty respect things like that that are important to the organization. So uh it's important to be aligned for sure.

[00:15:35]Well, I mean, look, you've you've hired I mean, you ran a $25 million team, you know, with more than 300 people in it. I mean, what's the difference between a good manager, you know, you know, and from one who actually knows how to hire or manage people to scale a business?

[00:15:50]>> Yeah, I think when when I was hiring managers to run offices, uh, you know, it was very much that EQ factor, right?

[00:15:58]Knowing empathy, uh, being a servant leader. I think those are some really key skills for uh for managers that are, you know, people managing, you know, um life is stressful enough, work is stressful enough, having a manager that can at least um empathize with you, have show compassion, you know, obviously be driven towards the KPIs you have for the manager, but also knowing how to work with it with uh his or her people to uh to achieve them, right? Sometimes some people you're managing need a strong hand. Sometimes they need a supportive hand, right? Knowing when to change. And every individual you're coaching is is different. And so that EQ factor they have, that emotional quotient they say or you know, people ski is another way to say it is just being uh the most important. A lot of times people that get primarily into management are just like your top sales guy. You're like, "Oh, he's a top salesperson. Make him a manager. Give him a team." That's not always the case. like Michael Jordan may not be the best coach, right? So, it's that coaching skills and the EQ skills that they need besides being an individual contributor. It's not it's a different job. And so, we we shouldn't be promoting the top sales rep to uh management.

[00:17:14]>> I've made that mistake plenty of times or the top project manager into it. And just because someone performs at a job does not mean they make a great manager or can can do well there, right? Right.

[00:17:26]I mean, I've I've gone through that that uh role and I've done that myself where I promoted someone because they performed well at the job they were doing and uh you know, you thought, well, you know, they're they're doing good there. Let's move them up. They'll they know the role well, >> but they get into management roles and it's just another skill set that's just not you know, they're they're just they're not there and then they suffer, right? Then it puts them in a place where they really suffer. Well, it could also be that the the person that was uh let's say your top salesperson, for them, sales is easy. So, they don't they have trouble coaching the people that are struggling because they don't understand their struggle. For them, it's like, "Oh, it's so easy. Why can't you do it?" Like I did, right? And they don't get it. Like if you hire someone that's like a mid-level salesperson that had struggle, understands the struggle, the grind and all that, um they can empathize better with uh their people because they understand it's not always easy. Is you know if you're the top performer where you walk on water, you know, there's some sales people that just everything they touch is gold, right? It's hard to translate that to your team, right? It's a secret sauce you have. It's your style. It's your charisma. Whatever it is, not everyone can can copy that.

[00:18:36]Yeah, that's great. You know, um, when you're building a business and, you know, for the entrepreneurs that's listening out there, building a team, you know, when you're going to hire your first executive, I mean, this is this was probably the biggest suffering I went through. My those first executives that I hired, I you know, I I here I wasn't ready for him. I I just I wasn't ready, right? Because I I still I'd hire an executive and I would step on their air host the whole time. What uh what kind of advice would you give a give a you know firsttime entrepreneur hiring you know an executive team?

[00:19:10]>> So when you say you're not ready I think the way I take it it more as is um you're not ready to let go.

[00:19:17]>> That's exactly right. It's exactly >> you're not ready to like >> That's exactly right.

[00:19:21]>> And I saw this recently. I can give you a story. So they was the head of um these medical clinics CEO um you know they they had been running it let's say 1015 million business by themselves as a head you know they had managers but they were the head executive and they brought in exe an executive to support them. They much needed it because they were working 80 hours a week right they couldn't let go.

[00:19:45]it was hard for them to let go to say okay now this is your baby or this is your responsibility and you're accountable for it and I'm going to be hands off cuz you're always thinking well I can do it faster or I know you know like are they doing it correctly and it's that fear especially when it's your own company to uh to be able to do that but you have to be able to delegate otherwise you'll never be able to grow because one person can't do it all and you're going to kill yourself with stress and and everything else so I think that's the hardest thing is that mental that building the trust with them is important, you know, but also mentally like being, you know, being able to let go of control. If you're a type A person, I don't I don't I don't even think it's the control more than the truth is as an entrepreneur, your business is continuously evolving, right? And not being, you know, one of the gifts of being an entrepreneur is you're essentially you're pulling your company forward, right? There there's no like I start business today and then if I just do this every day that the same things will happen. I'll be fine. The truth is it's it's it's always weaving.

[00:20:51]And to find someone that can weave with you, it takes an enormous amount of trust, you know, and and you you've got to be able to be one, you got to be able to set a vision clear enough that they can they can see it because if if you're changing your mind on your vision every day, um, you know, it's impossible for someone to lead your team, you know, to an everchanging vision. It just it's it's it makes it even more impossible.

[00:21:16]So I think one of those things you got to be ready and and you have to be able to disseminate your vision of where the company needs to go into the people's hands that that can do it and then just trust that you know not just trust because that'll never happen.

[00:21:30]Entrepreneurs will never just trust but you have to s be able to stand back in a way and know that you know look if I give them clear enough direction I set a clear enough vision of what I need to go to they will they will the people I've hired are smart enough people. Now, that wasn't something easy. I I I paid a woman more than 15,000 bucks a month to come in and lock me in. She used to lock me in my office. She would literally lock me in my office. And she would say, "Today we're going to lock you in your office." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" She goes, "Yeah, today you're not allowed to you're not allowed to go talk to any of these people. They're they're they're you have six meetings a week you get to have. Pick the six people you want for six one-hour meetings. That's all you get to have. You can't talk to you can't walk out there and tell them what to do all day. Can't you can't do that." And that took a lot. I mean, that that's that's a tough one. That's a tough one for an entrepreneur to let go and let let your organization run itself.

[00:22:18]>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not easy and it's a process of building trust, of building the the right team, you know, and and being aligned on where you're going, right? So, I uh I've totally seen that many times. It's it's tough. Uh but that's part of maybe your individual growth too as a leader, right? It's like knowing that, you know, this is a team sport, you know, and uh we got to build a team and you can't build a team if you're on top of everybody all the time.

[00:22:47]I hate micromanagers, you know, if you're if you're a prideful person, you hate a micromanager. So, like if you're going to micromanage, you know, like get out of here.

[00:22:57]It's it's a it's a true sign of of of a trust, right? You be able to trust your people. Um, and in a world where a lot of people also aren't, you know, you you got to be able to set the tone and have them go do it, some people won't step into it, right? There still are people who want to be led rather than want to be lead want to be leaders.

[00:23:20]>> So, you got to be careful the people you hire that are they willing to take the ball and run with it. There are people on your team that are ready to go take the ball and run with it. And there are some people in your team that that keep going, am I doing it right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing it right? Right.

[00:23:31]They they need that. So you you got to know that difference and that's a that's a tough one. So John, you know, um you're a Greek Greek family and uh you've got some uh you got some a lot of kids now. You're raising three kids. Uh what's that taught you about being uh you know, what's that taught you about leadership?

[00:23:48]Well, in terms of like modern the ray, it definitely taught me to in terms of trying to be a role model for them, you know, showing them uh day-to-day just how to conduct themselves in public, things like that, how to how to act. Um, you know, being with dad definitely has taught me a lot more than I've learned in business, let's say, especially with twins where uh you know, the first three years with them was something else in ter taking care of them and it was like a boot camp. So, um, yeah, it teaches you a lot. Teaches you to be humble.

[00:24:19]Teaches you to, uh, have empathy and, uh, you know, your EQ skills, like people skills, cuz they're all their little old little people and, uh, and how to treat each one differently as they need, right? I have a son and two daughters and my son's the the biggest crybaby of them all. So, >> that's it's not true. I mean, look, my I' I've got lots of kids and uh I will tell you the boys are mama's boys and and the and the girls are are daddy's girls and uh for sure I would young young boys could be a little a lot more crybaby than than the young girls and then somewhere there's a switch that happens but uh uh it usually takes you know usually takes 10 or you to get that you know into that those older years for them to you know catch up and find their their boyhood. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:08]>> Yeah. Well, congratulations on that.

[00:25:10]Well, it's it's great having you on. You know, if we were to leave entrepreneurs with one kind of final bit for them to really get, you know, what are the things if if you were to say them, hey, look guys, you're going to hire me, but these are the couple things I want you to know before you hire me to to make to make your hiring successful. What John, what are those things?

[00:25:28]>> I think the biggest thing was uh communication, you know, and in being a true partnership is that what we're trying to do with our customers. It's like let's sit down and talk about where you want to take your business. What's your goals? What's your culture? Like really, we want to be an extension of the CEO or the founder, right? And we want to really narrow their looking for and how they're wanting to build their business and and having that constant feedback. Like this is not a process where you just hire us on and then oh, we're sending a resume in two weeks and and you go with that. It this is very much a collaborative process where it needs engagement from both sides. We have weekly meetings. We have a client portal. All these things are to facilitate this kind of meeting of the minds, right? We have to be aligned together to uh have those best outcomes.

[00:26:15]So, you know, they need their commitment of their time. Absolutely.

[00:26:19]>> All right. Awesome. Well, I I appreciate having you on the show today. It's been amazing getting to know you and getting to know a little bit more about best practices for hiring great people. I mean, look, with a 95% uh retention for over a year, I mean, that's look, I that's unheard of in the business. You guys are the top agency out there, really performing well. That's why you guys do all the big big projects. So, John, it's great having you on today.

[00:26:42]>> I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

[00:26:43]>> Hey, uh, hey, audience members, hey, uh, another amazing week last week. I just want to take a second to say thank you.

[00:26:49]You know, we got the we got the YouTube button in the mail. Yeah, look at that.

[00:26:52]We got 100,000 subscribers. I just want to take a second and say thank you to each and every one of you guys for uh, being here with us, for, you know, following this journey with us. You know, uh, last week we had another breakthrough week with how many downloads we had, but we noticed that a bunch of you guys still are not subscribers. If you could take a second just right now and like and subscribe or or hit that if you're on Apple uh or or Spotify, hit that five stars, it does make a difference. It helps us get great guests on here and uh we're just so grateful for each and every one of you and it doesn't cost you a thing. Uh, but it does help us out quite a bit. As always, thank you for listening.