DF Direct Q+A: Is Project Helix A Console Or PC? Will Non-RT Modes Get Worse Over Time? Neo Geo AES+

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]Hello there and a warm completely unconditional welcome to this the DF Direct Q&A show. Lots of questions to get through this week. Uh joining me first of all Alex Batitalia. Hello.

[00:00:13]>> Hey there Rich. Yeah. Hi. Q&A. I'm here.

[00:00:16]I'm alive. Let's do this.

[00:00:17]>> Okay. There are questions PC specific questions. Hopefully you have some answers. And he's back from dare I say it vacation/h holiday. Let's try and cover all the bases. Slash time away. uh slashabsence John Linamman. Hello.

[00:00:32]>> Hey, good to you. Good to be here with you guys. Rich, of course, and then Alex, the human solenoid battalia. Uh it's great. There's a lot of questions to go through today. So, let's do it.

[00:00:43]>> Yeah, let's crack on. But first, this this video is sponsored by MSI. To mark the launch of Diablo I 4 and the new Lord of Hatred expansion, MSI is launching a new giveaway featuring a one-of-a-kind custom PC. The grand prize is based on MSI's AG series of gaming desktops. This Diablo themed system is a bespoke design built especially for this campaign, meaning it's entirely exclusive and will not be made available anywhere else. In addition to the custom AG's desktop, the prize pool also includes a secondary tier of rewards with MSI giving away 100 digital game codes for Diablo I Lord of Hatred. The entry process is straightforward and there are several ways to increase your chances of winning. By completing specific activities on the giveaway page, you can earn additional entries into the draw. Hit the link in the video description below to find the official page and read through the full requirements. Diablo for Lord of Hatred is available to play right now.

[00:01:48]Okay, so we're going to kick off with this question from Angry Cloud shouting at AI. Um, greetings philosophers of the forge. Um, discussion on whether project helix is a console or PC has been rampant on reset era, reset, reset, whatever. Personally, I find it a bit silly, but it did make me ponder when does a PC become a console and when does a PC become a console? I'm not quite sure what that question means but or why it's required.

[00:02:16]>> No. When does a PC become a console and when does a console become a PC? I think there was meant to write.

[00:02:23]>> Yeah.

[00:02:24]>> Both the series and PlayStation 5 run basically an x86 architecture with almost uh no or very little customized silicon allow for installation and execution of applications even if from a c curated store. In your opinion, when does a console become a PC? Is it when we can drop an XC file from our PC on a console and run it? Is the series a PC because we can access developer mode and run UWP packages? Does the presence of multiple storefronts make it a PC? Or is it like me when I could install Excel on Helix without having to go through a curated store or developer mode? Curious to hear your opinions, musings, and ponderings. Cheers exclamation point.

[00:03:01]Bonus context, but not necessarily for the question. Personally, I do find a discussion of whether it's a PC or a console a bit silly as it has way more to do with presentation and functionality as compared as compared to whether it has custom silicon or can run Steam games, but it is an interesting thought experiment nonetheless. I particularly like the bonus context there because, you know, it's basically answering the question.

[00:03:25]>> Um, I'm going to go to you first on this one, John. Um, because, you know, basically consoles used to be their own thing, right? They had uh custom silicon designed to do various things that you'd want from a console, but you know, things kind of changed in the Xbox 360 period. And then we sort of went full-on AMD uh with Xbox One and PlayStation 4, but I'd still say they were consoles, right? Sure. Yeah. And like as you suggested, you know, in the past, the whole reason for consoles was that essentially hardware was very expensive and a general purpose CPU was not necessarily, you know, a great fit for gaming and developers or, you know, designers of hardware basically split out the hardware functions that they needed for good games. And that was kind of the birth of it, right? An optimized machine with just the instructions necessary to run games well. Uh but obviously as things evolve that we've reached the point where you know development of new hardware has become so expensive and also general purpose computing devices are now more than capable of handling anything you might need and it doesn't make sense to split off and design your own thing. But I don't think the hardware alone is what determines whether something's a PC.

[00:04:38]Although I do have to ask you Rich, what do you think? Is the Mac a PC? Because their their ads from like 20 years ago might disagree.

[00:04:44]>> Yeah. Um well that there's there's a sort of crossover in functionality isn't there but you know they're very much their own thing at the moment but they do very similar tasks. There was a time of course when um they were using PC components basically. That's that's the >> exactly you could dual boot windows on it.

[00:05:02]>> That was a fun time actually.

[00:05:03]>> It was definitely a PC then. Mhm.

[00:05:06]>> Uh but so the way I look at it when people talk about this, you know, aside from semantics, it really comes down to whether you can freely install software as you desire. And in that sense, we could argue since we talked about Linux on PS5 the other day that more specifically the PlayStation 3 was a PC by this definition, right? Because you could install Linux and arbitrarily run software. uh I guess PS2 as well, which is why they called it the PlayStation 2 computer entertainment system, >> right?

[00:05:38]>> I believe so. Um I really think though when people think about it in the modern sense, it's just can I install like Windows and Steam and or Linux and stuff like that. That's what people are thinking in general when they call it a PC. So, if Helix is a machine that allows you to install arbitrary software like that, then I think by the modern definition, it would be considered a PC.

[00:06:04]But if it's still a platform that's locked down and you're not able to arbitrarily install software, then it no longer fits the bill. And I'm specifically talking about the official uh capacity, right? Like PlayStation 5 with Linux, I would say, is actually a computer. It's a personal computer at that point. It it functions exactly like one, but it's not an official feature that they designed the system for. You can't do it without essentially jailbreaking the system. Right.

[00:06:32]>> That's right.

[00:06:33]>> So, it falls outside that scope. So, I think that's basically what it comes down to is providing that Project Helix does what we think it's going to do, it will basically fit the definition of a PC, which also kind of makes sense considering Microsoft as a company, right? I mean, the original idea was uh Windows on a console, right, for the Xbox, but the designers kind of shot that down because at the time things like Windows 2000, whatever, XP, they were not well suited to that sort of device.

[00:07:06]>> You had to give up so much processing power to Windows uh to make that viable that it didn't make sense. And that's why I think they went with the more streamlined custom OS and APIs on the original Xbox. But now we're at the point where that's no longer really necessary. I mean, Windows certainly has its problems though, as you know, we've talked about many times, but we're at a point where I think it just makes sense.

[00:07:29]And I think Xbox series and one also are derived from some like the Windows kernel, if I recall, like there's there's Windows DNA under the surface.

[00:07:38]You just can't arbitrarily run software.

[00:07:41]>> Yeah. Well, it's a it's a very interesting philosophical question, you know, is the Steam machine a console?

[00:07:46]Probably not. is the Steam Decka console. Well, maybe it's kind of like there's there's a sort of weird feeling about it, but fundamentally we are looking at a convergence of the two things. And it is, you know, perhaps ultimately just going to come down to to a presentational issue and a curational issue. U because if you have a console, there is still the expectation of plugandplay gaming. Um, Alex, what do you think?

[00:08:10]I think there's two things that since we're getting so close now and the thing that starts separating things more into the PC category is like I think of like very basic things I do on a PC that locked off devices have trouble with.

[00:08:24]And for example, one of them is I plug in a USB stick with any files I really want on it and they're fully accessible on the host machine or I can take host files from that machine. they're not locked away in some sort of encrypted proprietary format that only ex works on Xbox or something like that or only works on PlayStation or you know these are things that kind of disappear when you get into console because they don't want it to be jailbroken and exploited and people cheating and all these things or just you know protecting their IP. So when I can do that with a PC that's a nice little bit of freedom that you get there that I really like. I also think that one thing that would maybe speak against the PS3 being a complete PC, and this is just me being technical, is that I like the one thing that I'm liking with Rich's new uh Linux on PS5 thing is he's getting pretty much all of the hardware there.

[00:09:19]>> Uh actually running stuff. And uh I think that's one thing that I that Helix has to provide is it gives you full access to all of the hardware while doing the the like free form user PC mode. And I think uh that is another thing like you have full control over the hardware from the software environment you're in it. And I think I think that's uh one of the things that's going to separate Helix from whatever PS6 is. Um, and I I guess you know the last thing is the separation between the two with Project Helix is just the fact that you're going to still play be able to play console games on it through backwards compatibility, but I don't think Helix software is going to be Helix written software. I think it's just going to be PC games. Um, and that is a for someone like me, I think it's a good thing, but as a if you're someone in the Xbox ecosystem, maybe you would need to consider whether you find that acceptable.

[00:10:19]>> So interesting.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah. I mean, I think it's uh it's an interesting discussion, but kind of academic really because Microsoft is saying it's like, you know, you can do these things with this piece of hardware and I actually find all those things quite exciting. You know, I think it's a really good a really good idea to differentiate themselves because, you know, we've been talking for years now that an Xbox has to differentiate itself from a PlayStation in order to find its own audience. Um, just doing what PlayStation does hasn't really worked for them historically. And when they do something new and different, then, you know, I think that's going to be very very good for them. And the idea of you know being able to license that chipset that um architecture to other manufacturers I think is also a good idea. You know it's new ideas which is which is kind of what we need here. Um in terms of like you know whether whether Helix itself is going to be a console or PC. Well Microsoft are calling it a console and I suspect that in terms of like the um the Xbox ecosystem that will be brought to the four in a way that it might not be on a more PC- like device. But if you've got the option to do everything, I think that's pretty pretty awesome. Um, let's move on to our next question. This one from Daro in brackets. Dan, it emerged recently that Microsoft's code name for their lean I mean a steam OS quote unquote beating Windows iteration is called the K2 initiative. In mountaineering circles, I'm loving this context here. In mountaineering circles, K2 is known as quote unquote the Savage Mountain. Not as tall as Everest, but more technically challenging. Could this be a sign that Microsoft is finally seeing the challenge ahead of them as the existential threat um it has surely by now become? There's talk of Steam OS matching performance. Um a smaller footprint, less memory use, less AI clutter, less pre pre-installed software, and a quote unquote 60% faster fully rebuilt start menu.

[00:12:10]If you're sort of like bigging up the start menu, that's kind of like kind of crazy, isn't it? How optimistic are you that it will be enough for a quote unquote fresh start rather than a slow motion scene from cliffhanger? Um yeah, this this Windows K2 stuff, uh Will did an article about it. Um the initiative emerged in a in a article from uh Zack Browder at Windows Central and um improved gaming performance um is is mooted the faster start menu, less annoying updates, a more responsive file explorer, taskbar flexibility, less prominent AI integration. Um Will actually added some uh of his own um wishes for K to make the Xbox app as bulletproof as Steam. I think we're all behind that one cuz, you know, it's it's kind of like one of these things where you load it up and you just don't really really feel as though it's reliable. Uh, one click telemetry opt out. That's also good. Local users accounts. I'd love to see that, but I don't think it's going to happen. I like this final one. Stop asking me things repeatedly.

[00:13:17]If I say I don't if I say I don't want to switch to Edge or tell you that I'm going to use the computer for what I'm going to use the computer for or sign up for location tracking or activate phone integration, then for the love of God, remember that choice. If I turn on my computer after an update again and get the same euphemistic change of browsing settings prompt again, that's it. Linux time. Uh K2, Alex. Um, I mean, it's great that Microsoft is seemingly seeing that there are fundamental issues with Windows. Um, it's all about delivery, isn't it?

[00:13:51]>> It's all about delivery because now I'm going to bring up a a forum post here because I want to say this is the 30th to 40th time since the year 2005 that Microsoft has done this. Uh, that they always say there's a forum post here that originally was on NeoAF a long time ago. And I remember even commenting on the thread, but a person collated all the times Microsoft had a public um a public statement about how they want to revitalize Windows gaming uh because they keep throwing it under the bus or just ruining it. And there's there's these these these, you know, between 2005 and 2013, there's at least 15. And then after that, we know all about all the stuff that they did with DX12 bringing, you know, console games forward on it day and date. Um, you know, they there's tons of public statements about them wanting to do this, yet for some reason it like goes up and then it just keeps going down ever since like, you know, Windows 8 actually was kind of like a pretty dark period I feel like sometimes. Um, but yeah, I I don't want to believe anything that is leaked about Microsoft stuff or even what they put out publicly until I see it tangibly in front of me running and doing the things I really prefer it would do. Um, like like uh Will's wish list is wonderful. It it you know it maybe even eclipses my own. Um, and I think all those things are what I'd want, especially the local the local accounts. Like >> Microsoft's really making it hard these days to have a local account. You have to do really fishy stuff. Um, including custom ISO installs, which I don't think is probably the best way to let people do that. Um, so I think uh at this point in time I would love it. Uh, but I just don't trust them. I I hope that this is whatever K2 is. The timing on the article when they talk about it like a year ago, like a half a year ago or something like that was really weird because I'm pretty sure these the roaring volume of people hating Windows has just like like how how high does that volume have to get for people at Microsoft to hear things. I wonder what metrics they had access to that made them realize this. Um because they were kind of out of date like this is something that could have been done easily uh two to three years ago when we kind of started uh with our first Windows 11 hate on this channel. Uh I'd say um so yeah, I just like John probably has something to say here, but I just think I can't believe it until I actually see it and touch it.

[00:16:29]>> Right, John? Uh indeed though I will say I give him credit for very specifically calling out all the things that people don't like right now. Specifically saying oh less AI integration when AI is such a core part of their business now being able to say yeah we'll tone it down. Uh just saying that out loud is is a big step. I think one thing I would like to see will mention the Xbox app and I feel like the app store and Xbox and everything I'd like to see more integrated into Windows. Like I don't think Xbox should be like a separate app that you have to load. Like you want to click a button and it's almost like directly integrated into the operating system, right? Cuz as it is, it just it behaves so weird and just feels so separate from this from the platform. It it basically feels like a third party launcher >> at this point only less reliable and it shouldn't be cuz it's Microsoft's own operating system. So better integration there would be nice. We've beat the drum many times for a long time. Uh, and I really don't have much else to say about that kind of stuff other than maybe if they're >> they're serious about that start menu, it's time to bring back the Rolling Stones.

[00:17:39]>> Hell yeah.

[00:17:41]>> Like they did in 1995 or that start menu.

[00:17:45]>> Yeah.

[00:17:46]>> No, I I mean >> start it up without lag. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

[00:17:49]>> Exactly.

[00:17:50]>> God. And I think just finding ways to reduce everyday annoyances is going to be key. And I feel like a lot of software is at this point where everything's become so bloated and they've just sort of like thrown up their hands as far as like optimizing for low memory conditions. Uh and it's not just Windows. We see it in a lot of software Adobe uh where just like there's a lot of room to improve that experience and speed things up. We have exceptionally powerful hardware in our machines these days. Um, I actually think Microsoft really should pay attention to I mean obviously they have less control, but you look at what Apple's done with the Apple silicon stuff, right? Uh, even the the very first M1s, those things still feel fast.

[00:18:40]Yeah. And the thing that stuck out to me is like on a Mac when you when you're talking about memory, right? When you have low memory, it doesn't mean that your system feels slow. It's just that eventually you bump up against the wall and it's like, "Okay, I don't have enough memory for this type of operation, right?" But the system up to that point feels really quick and responsive. And that's just kind of nuts that even like 6 years on that that same hardware is still like as usable and fast as it is, >> right? and making sure that even when your hardware becomes outdated, the overall experience is snappy. It doesn't feel like it's lagging or acting weird, like you just want it to work well. But again, of course, I also recognize there is a much greater challenge there with the rich backwards compatibility with older hardware and just the sheer volume of hardware available in the PC space.

[00:19:31]But some work being done in that direction would be great.

[00:19:34]>> Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:36]One thing I always want to throw out there is I don't think the legacy support of Windows is the thing bagging dragging it down. That stuff, you know, if it ran well, if that legacy stuff ran well on a Windows XP machine, >> it's going to run really, really well on a 9800 X3D. Um, I think it's just really that them having lost sight of good computing performance, good UX, and not constantly trying to sell you stuff.

[00:20:02]Like I' I've said it before, but what if K2 offered you the the ability not only to just have a much more customized Windows experience, but have one that is way more customized to you? And you can even give more money for that. Like I would literally pay more money to to remove Windows features that I hate like one drive.

[00:20:23]>> I would pay to remove >> Yeah, you can remove programs and I do it regularly.

[00:20:29]>> Well, the thing is it reinstalls itself afterwards. That's what I'm saying.

[00:20:33]>> So, like I don't want to have to constantly be like every single Windows update I'm turning off stuff that have that have been turned on again. And I'm like, uh, this is pretty bad. One one of the things that continue to shock me about Windows, and I know they've explained reasons before, but like it's built on on old Windows technology to the point where you still have like multiples of things like two control panels.

[00:20:59]>> Like, oh, I have power options in two places >> and they behave slightly different.

[00:21:04]Network options in two places. Like it's absurd to me that all these years on we still have these like split control panels and like different options. And not only are they different, but like the whole dialogue box around them looks completely different stylistically. Like the old legacy stuff, it looks like Windows like 8 era stuff or Windows 10, I guess. And then it's slammed in with the you get the Windows 11 aesthetic around that on its own stuff. And it just like it just feels so cobbled together still at this point where nothing was really thought out and like re done properly. And I feel like they really just need to step back and like think about this experience and rebuild it.

[00:21:46]>> Mhm.

[00:21:47]>> Uh so we'll see.

[00:21:49]>> Well, they've done it before and hopefully they can do it again, but uh it is it is all about delivery.

[00:21:54]>> Um >> that's the problem though, Rich, is when last time they did it like the full revamp was probably Windows Vista, right?

[00:22:01]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:02]>> And and I think that's the problem and that's probably why they're scared to do it is that when you do these full revamps like this, the the initial usage period is probably going to be even worse than what you came from, >> right?

[00:22:15]>> I mean, even Apple faced that when they switched to Mac OS 10 originally, you know, it was a it was a huge pain for them. It was a big pain with Vista. You know, it was a big pain when people moved from Windows 98 to like the the 2000 XP era. like these things are not easy to do but I do think it's important.

[00:22:34]>> Okay, let's move on. Got this question here from Regordless. Hello Jets exclamation point. Will rasterized visuals look worse than ever going forward? With an increasing focus on ray and even path tracing, studios might be tempted to invest less time and effort into the rasterized versions of their games. We've already seen games looking pretty bad in their nonRT modes. Do you do you think this trend will continue or might devs abandon abandon rasterized visuals uh for larger games and go with lower fidelity RT like Pragmata aka Dad Space?

[00:23:06]>> Dad Space.

[00:23:08]>> Oh dear. For weaker hardware and focus on path tracing for stronger devices.

[00:23:12]Cheers. Well, this is an interesting point, isn't it, Alex? But fundamentally, you know, it seems to be like this is like the sort of glass half fullall view on the evolution of graphics and graphics getting better and um yeah, I mean it is the case that RT games are becoming more of a focus and but there are still fallbacks to enable um nonRT hardware or to accelerate performance if that's what you want. Um, I'm seeing this as just like the evolution of graphics as opposed to um a conscious effort to make rasterized visuals look worse, right? Uh, as an example, when software rendering was petering out, uh, the software modes in a lot of games, uh, has were missing things like transparency effects, uh, multiexturing, uh, you know, filtering on textures and stuff when you would turn them on. And there were legacy support options towards the end just to allow other people to play the game. Or if you for some reason didn't have like a power you had like a really low power graphics accelerator or GPU but a really strong CPU then you can maybe get more performance I guess. But uh yeah I I kind of view it like that. I don't expect developers if they have already a ray tracing mode and they're uh spending all their artistic time making the game that way to find a perfect balance where they uh by trying to make them more similar to one another uh kind of make them too similar to one another and you don't see the benefit anymore. There was a presentation at GDC by the developers uh at Sucker Punch regarding Ghost of Yotai and they mentioned how their one of their goals which I kind of question whether or not it was a good goal was to make it so that the hardware RTGI offers similar visuals to the game's standard GI which wasn't using RT and to and as a result of that you know there were scenarios where they there could have probably been way better visuals actually with the RTGI on but it was like mixing systems there to make them more similar looking and I feel like that isn't a way forward that I don't know if I agree with and I don't think a lot of devs will want to do because it the the predev time to make that actually work is probably not too great and then you know like you're essentially not giving the people who bought better hardware like the better visuals maybe that they crave Uh, so I don't think that's pretty good.

[00:25:52]I think in the future more devs will uh abandon rasterized visuals, and I do think they're going to look worse and worse because the games are going to be designed around technology that is fundamentally different and allows different lighting scenarios, different gameplay scenarios, and the there are no fallbacks for those things in rasterization. They just look worse, and that's how it's always been. But people are now starting to see that that is the fact. Um, I think people just kind of did have rosy vision about a lot of things like areas in games that are indirectly lit and moving objects have always looked terrible in rasterized games like just people just kind of got used to it. Um, so a lot of games when they design it around it like uh what is it? Not praada dad space but Resident Evil Reququum like the game's opening scene is just indirect skylighting which is pretty bad in rasterization if there's moving objects.

[00:26:45]So, I feel like uh I feel like this is just the way forward and it's how things have been always.

[00:26:51]>> Mhm.

[00:26:52]>> Yeah.

[00:26:52]>> Yeah. Um I'm just looking at the Steam hardware survey top 20 GPUs um um there's a well obviously the vast majority of them support rateracing. I think there's like maybe four that don't out of the 20. And of the uh some of the ones in there integrated graphics um GTX 1650 they're going to be having trouble just from a memory perspective in running the latest games. anyway whe whether they're using ray tracing or not. So I think there is sort of like a you know obviously you know as more advanced graphics hardware appears um the need to accommodate um nonrtgpus diminishes. I do think there are, you know, good reasons to have that fall back though because, you know, um, proliferation of handheld devices, that sort of thing. That's that's something that's quite, you know, and of course integrated graphics in general on laptops, you would like to be able to run your games, right? But the focus is clearly moving on. Um, John, so this this makes me think about the whole like uh, a lot of people don't like ray tracing, right? We've been very positive on ray tracing and do like it, but I I've really wanted to take the time and like try to understand like what is it about this that people don't like? And fundamentally, I think it comes down to uh different tolerance for various visual artifacts, right? Like when I talk to Alex for instance, uh you're very much somebody that sees floating objects, you know, poorly indirectly lit scenes, you know, you see all the issues that rasterization can offer or struggles with, right?

[00:28:29]>> And that bothers you.

[00:28:30]>> Um, a lot of people don't actually notice or care about that stuff. And what they do care about is image uh consistency and like uh I guess temporal stability, right? And one of the downsides to ray tracing as we make our journey to increasingly more sophisticated tracing uh it has been this the whole dnoising aspect and all the other sort of like temporal instabilities that are introduced along the way. And I think we generally fall on the side of we're willing to tolerate some of those uh temporal instabilities uh in favor of the increased lighting precision. But if you're somebody that wasn't bothered by the lack of precision in those scenes and just never noticed it, um then you're going to find these new techniques, especially on lower-end hardware, to be annoying. A lot of people do. They don't like to see those artifacts. That's what their eye picks up. they didn't pick up the other thing.

[00:29:31]And I and so in that sense, I fully understand and I can respect uh why people look at this stuff and they don't like it. I do think there is quite a gulf in terms of the quality of the rate tracing implementation and that some games are far noisier than others. And unfortunately, it's not just the RT noise either. There's plenty of other uh issues that can arise with modern rendering techniques because it does rely a lot on uh sort of like averaging things together across frames, right?

[00:30:03]This sort of temporal update, you know, it's whether it's anti-aliasing, dnoising, etc. All of that stuff does add up. And older games definitely just look different. Um for instance, it's the same with TAA where it's like, you know, people don't like TAA. It's like why? Well, they think it looks softer, but it's solving insurface aliasing, which is something that's always driven me nuts. But some people don't care.

[00:30:26]They want those like super sharp MSA edges. And again, that's kind of their prerogative. And I I think the challenge to software engineers here is just how do we how can we solve these problems with temporal stability uh in a cheap enough fashion that most users of our game will not experience those problems and I think that is something that companies have been working towards right that's where ray reconstruction was born that's the reason for its existence the same with AMD's solution like They're they're clearly working towards this. They're working towards techniques to sort of remove these issues. Like I would say DLSS has reached the point where it does genuinely in many cases look significantly better than native 4K because it is actually trying to reconstruct a super sampled image rather than just like a native 4K image. But it certainly took a while to get there and not every implementation is created equal. And so when we're talking about removing rasterization versus RT, the conversation then it gets tricky because obviously to make rasterized visuals match or look anywhere near ray trace visuals but with it requires a lot of work from the development side.

[00:31:45]Basically a completely separate pipeline. And if you already had those capabilities in there, you can do it.

[00:31:52]There is a time punishment for it, right? like there's a huge time cost to baking out lighting. Uh this is something that the ID guys talked a lot about when they shifted towards ray tracing for Doom Eternal or sorry for Doom: The Dark Ages because if they had continued with the Doom Eternal method, uh the amount of time spent baking out the lighting would have increased like tenfold and it would have just made adjusting the map design and like working on the game far more difficult and probably would have added like another year to development. So, like there is a cost there, but it's finding that balance where you can make it look good enough to please as many people as possible and that's just not easy. So, I really I I don't know. I've just been thinking a lot about this problem because like a lot of people push back against it and I just wanted to understand why. And I think I see why. I think it's a lot simpler, John. I think it's a lot simpler. Basically um you had a whole generation of games that were built with rasterization in mind and then you had like these tacked on raid facing features and um uh a lot of people turned on those raid tracing features saw their performance drop by 40 50% and couldn't you know couldn't really see a huge upgrade to the experience in line with the um with the performance cost and therefore raid tracing is a scam. I think that's the sort of main argument I've seen about >> I think that's where it stems from Rich, but I don't think that's the whole argument either, right? Like there's a lot of people that pushed it back against Doom: The Dark Ages, for instance, versus Doom Eternal. You saw so many comparisons be like, "Look what we had in 2020 running at like a thousand FPS, you know."

[00:33:27]>> Yeah. Mhm. I mean, um, it's interesting that Dad Space, Pragmata, is brought up in this question because, um, uh, it's one of these games where clearly the developer intention is to have raid facing active and without it, it kind of looks a lot worse, which I think is kind of like Regardless's point there. That's really interesting, Rich, cuz I actually saw people arguing against the path version of Pragmata even. Oh my god. And it and the reason was was like they're like, "Oh, it looks darker without path tracing." But I'm like, "Okay, I get that." But like the blue lights over there, like directly in front of you, produce no no actual like scene light.

[00:34:10]They're just like dots that show blue, >> right? And I guess so there's also this disconnect between what something should be and what I guess personal preference.

[00:34:20]Like they're like, "Oh, I like the darker look." And that's fair enough, but like if the artist places a light in the scene, like should the light cast light or not? And that's kind of like gets into the weeds of like this whole artistic stuff cuz clearly there is a big blue light there. But even in the normal ray tracing mode, like it doesn't really like produce the kind of glow that you would expect. Uh only in the path tracer does that stuff factored in.

[00:34:47]Like you're kind of picking and choosing the lights. And man, it's complicated in terms of like how do you approach this stuff?

[00:34:53]>> Yeah. I think you know the other thing of course is that um you know it is Pragmata is built I think with rate tracing in mind but it is a rate tracing technology that's defined by the technical limits of having to run the game at 60 Hz on a console. You know is is that the developers intention or is it the developers being forced to make compromises because of the technology they got to deal with? It's a really really tricky uh conversation there.

[00:35:17]Anyway, let's move on. Uh, bunch of questions here about the same thing. I'm going to bunch them all up together.

[00:35:23]Therefore, horizon of a new day. Any chance you will discuss the AES Plus on the Retro Show? The announcement sent shock waves through the Neo Geo community, but the silence for DF makes me a little sad. Just a little, I promise. Will calling asks, I was wondering what you guys thought on the Neo Geo AES Plus being launched in November. Could this be a model for other systems given that games tend to last longer than the systems? Allan, the infamous Allan from the Discord. Uh, the legendary Allen. Hi chaps. What are your thoughts on the Plyon Neo Geo AES Plus?

[00:35:54]It's not emulation either, but powered by a re-engineered uh re-engineered legacy ASIC chips. DF John was shook from what he was saying in the Discord.

[00:36:02]Were you shook? Um, and seemed super hype hyped. Maybe you could get an interview of them. What do you think the chances are of any new releases being made? This is an interesting one. Um, let's just sort of put the the hardware for aside for a minute, but you know, not talking about it is fundamentally because it's news. New news goes in DF Direct and um uh you away, John. So that's why it wasn't in DF Direct Retro Show. I mean, you can answer that one, but it's not like Shun mode is on for this particular piece of hardware, is it? No, I mean I just didn't think about it when when I recorded the retro show with Corey cuz we did that on a whim in his basement and like we didn't have time to prepare the news cuz I was not, you know, I was technically still on holiday, >> but I wanted to do a super show with him while I was there cuz it was fun.

[00:36:52]>> Yeah, that's all.

[00:36:53]>> Okay, what about the hardware itself? It certainly does seem very very interesting.

[00:36:58]Yeah, this is extremely promising and it's actually a bold direction for this sort of re-release because it's something we really haven't seen from with an official branding on like ever or at least in the modern era essentially where a new company in this case it's like playon uh is able to release and create a new machine that runs original cartridges but also ex has enhanced features right like compared to say like the mini console boom where it was just like these little SOC based boxes that were closed systems. They ran emulation and then they, you know, they were HDMI devices that you hooked up to your HD TV. This seems to have all the functionality of the real system, the original Neo Geo, including analog video output, which is really awesome. Uh, but they've also added in things like HDMI output and other modern features. And it seems like there's going to be even more to it than that. And in addition, they're making new games, which I think will also allow uh other developers maybe cuz there has been Neo Geo games released over the years, right? Like you got Zeno Crisis from Bit Map Bureau. Uh I think they're working on Final Vendetta as well. So that should almost be done. Uh, there was all the stuff from NG Dev Team, which is that German company that does a lot of retro inpired games, stuff like that where like I feel like they could maybe strike a deal and get new cartridges made based on these games for this system. So, it's essentially a chance to sort of rebuild this out of something new, >> right? Yeah.

[00:38:37]>> And I think that's super exciting.

[00:38:40]>> Mhm.

[00:38:40]>> Yeah. Alex, I don't suppose you have too much to say about this one, but Well, when I was like around 2012, I was actually considering getting one of these uh the older originals Neo Geos, but at that time um you know, the ones that were reasonable in price and the games that were reasonable in price was the the CD version. And then reading online about how that injected a whole bunch of loading times into games that would be less than than great, I actually decided against it. Uh and you know, I could never afford the AES version. Uh, so this this is uh this is a great thing for all those people who are maybe turned off from the G Neo Geo's retro community due to the price of the premier model, the one that you'd really want. And I think that's great because it's kind of been it's kind of been like reached holy grail status, I feel like. And uh you don't have a lot of opportunity there to get one uh the premier model and this will just open up that market again. It's kind of like if someone were to make like a new, you know, Windows 95 capable PC these days or a DOS PC, I would also champion that.

[00:39:50]I'd think that'd be a really cool hardware thing. And this is this is sounds only awesome to me.

[00:39:55]>> I guess the main thing, Alex, is that uh we have companies like Analog and the like that have been producing like new versions of consoles, but uh they they've essentially been unofficial, right?

[00:40:05]>> True that. These guys actually have the official uh Neo Geo license. And that's kind of the difference here is that they're able to officially call it a Neo Geo and re-release games for it. And it's it's taking it like one step further, I think, which I think is super cool. Yeah. Okay, cool. Good stuff.

[00:40:22]Let's move on. Gore Guts asks, "Yes, Digital Foundry gentlemen, exclamation point. Benchmarks of the Arc B70 Pro have arrived and they have it performing in the 5060Ti tier. I understand that the market is tight due to VRAM prices and all, but do you think that Intel made a mistake by not releasing a B770 and keeping that card for AI only? Is there a market for a 5060 Ti tier card with copious amounts of VRAM? This is coming on the heels of the news that Celestial will remain exclusive to integrated GPUs. Me thinks we've gone back to Elizabeth in England there. We think this would have been sold this would have sold like hotcakes given the value it would have provided especially considering that the B580 is selling so well and is basically your only good option at that price point. Curious to hear your thoughts. Cheers. Exclamation point. I think this is you know a business decision driven by the fact that I suspect that uh the B570 and the B580 are losing Intel money with every unit sold break even at absolute best.

[00:41:22]So, you know, if they have this higherend silicon, um how can they actually make um money from it? And um that's how they've done it. They've decided to market it as a AI card with 32 gigs of memory. Um if there was a B770, you wouldn't have got the 32 gigs of memory. You'd have got 16 um at best.

[00:41:42]I think that's the bottom line. Uh in terms of like I mean it's a shame that we don't have a B770 out there. But at the same time, if it is going to be more expensive to make than a 5060Ti and they're losing money on it, I can kind of understand the decision even if it is a bit sad.

[00:41:58]>> Um, Celestial being iGPU only. I mean, that's kind of like Intel's bread and butter laptops and that kind of makes sense as well. But it again, it's a real shame because we really wanted that third player in the discrete graphics market. Um, Alex, >> yeah, they just weren't competing in um die area for performance and that is key to keeping things cost effective at this uh lower-end level and them doing essentially what I would call the Nvidia Nvidia Quadro play where it's basically the exact same damn card with like a different driver.

[00:42:36]>> More memory.

[00:42:37]>> Um, it has more memory, you know, like whatever. I I I also I'm disappointed by it too. I I always want to see the graphics card market on PC being shaken up by Intel as much as possible. They did really well with XTSS. I feel I feel like all their cards have been, you know, beyond the problems with drivers and driver performance, which they seem to have largely gotten over to a degree, largely. Not always though, um that I feel like this that could have been amazing. But the current way things are with the market, them actually breaking into it would mean costing them a lot more money and maybe just not being worth it in the long term. So yeah, Gorgett, I'm feeling exactly as you do.

[00:43:26]Um I actually haven't seen those benchmarks as of yet. I did see the card releasing and I looked at its price and I thought, whoa, okay. Um, it's it's pretty it's pretty good for if you want if you're into that I want to run local AI stuff, but for other people, I don't think that would be a worthwhile investment, you should get that 5060 Ti 16 gig or 5070 or, you know, even higher in that in that case or the AMD equivalents where you'll be, you know, have more reliable driver situation, better day one game coverage support potentially. And uh yeah, so it is a shame. I wonder what comes after Celestial. They haven't announced the name yet to my to my knowledge. You know, we >> Is it Druid?

[00:44:12]>> Make that up.

[00:44:13]>> I just Yeah, you could have made that up, but that is another DND, you know, universe thing or just real life thing if you if you're still a druid. Um some people are. Um, so yeah, I guess I'm curious now about Druid if Celestial's only IGPU.

[00:44:34]>> John, what do you make of all of this? I mean, diversity in the discrete graphics space is a is a great thing, but at the same time, >> extremely it's a it's a Intel is a business, I guess, >> I guess.

[00:44:46]>> Yeah. But so I think that it can be argued that the the research and development that goes into creating higherend discrete GPUs actually pays dividends in terms of like trickling down to other elements of the company's products, right?

[00:45:00]>> I think it's pretty obvious that the work Nvidia is doing in in the gaming graphics space actually directly benefits every other thing that they do, >> right? because they're pushing they're pushing a certain bleeding edge uh to target the very challenging gaming market. Uh and I think it pay it pays off. So while I was away though, I kept seeing articles pop up and I'm wondering if you can clarify this that Intel was looking to leave the discrete gaming GPU market behind. Is there is there any truth to this? Have you seen anything on this? Well, they're saying that that the Celestial, which is the third generation arc, is going to be IGP only and um fourth generation Druid is up in the air. So, you know, who knows? We don't really know at this point.

[00:45:45]>> We just don't know yet. I I sure hope that's not the case, basically. And uh I think it's important and I think they really should consider like how important this sort of research and development can be for >> other products. Okay, agreed.

[00:45:58]>> Let's move on. Question from Marcus.

[00:46:00]Hey, Foundry Man. exclamation point. Uh, Lego Batman Legacy of the Dark Knight just released a PC spec sheet that bakes upscaling and frame generation directly into its targets, including 1440p and 4K quote unquote 60 fps modes that appear to be 30 fps based with frame generation. The minimum spec is even stranger. Low 1080p at 30 fps with FSR or XCSS balanced and frame generation enabled. Is that effectively laundering a 15 fps base into a 30 fps minimum while also presenting 30 fps as quote unquote 60 fps higher up the chart?

[00:46:34]Should spec sheets ever use frame generation this way? Surely frame generation should be built on top of an already playable base frame rate, not part of the baseline requirement. I hope you have a great week. Exclamation point. Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Marcus. frame generation should be built on top of an already playable base frame rate, not part of the BA uh baseline requirement.

[00:46:55]Uh is there anything to add to that, Alex?

[00:46:58]>> Uh there isn't actually much to add to that. I'm very wondering why they would put out any sort of spec sheet with the I mean, the spec sheet has like great art on it, by the way. Looking at it right now, I'm like, "Ah, this is all branded. It looks great." And then you scroll down and you look at it and you're like, "Oh my goodness." Um, so I I think if they had wet their finger and put it to the wind, they would have seen every single time a developer's done this, there's been massive controversy about it. And surely the people putting out the spec sheet have some semblance of how people react to spec sheets online. That's maybe their job. So, they probably should have known uh that you shouldn't put frame gen on a spec sheet unless it is about unless it's about targeting HFR, so high frame rates. Um, because it is an additive solution to give you that high frame rate experience that you might not otherwise get with high-spec features enabled. So, I feel like this is a a big misstep. I think in the end though, the game will probably perform much like other games that use UE5.

[00:48:07]uh based upon everything here, the fact that the RTX 2070 Super is even mentioned at all for recommended specs, uh which is probably going to be going to be like 1080p high settings or something like that if it's the usual um the usual uh UE5 standard stuff with software lumen. I'm presuming this they just have a really misguided unfortunately misguided series of columns here that could have been split up in a different way that show different you know they could have showed 1080p instead of 1440p right there with frame gen and DLSS they there's tons of ways to draw out a spec sheet that make your game look much more favorable than how they did here um because no one's going to play with a 4070 at 4K with frame gen enabled to get 60. That's going to feel awful. Uh probably. So, this is just a bad decision and it's kind of funny. It's uh well, yeah, I guess that's the way to put it. I mean, I guess the only reason you do it is to lower the requirements for the for the GPU, right? And I guess on the minimum side of things, GTX 960, I mean, come on. This is like very very old GPU now. It's not even supported driver stack anymore. So that means the game support it must be DX11 enabled or something like that which is really weird because 960 960 never got later shader model support for later DX12 features. So it definitely can't run the latest UE5 without the DX11 mode that's hidden away in UE5. So it's totally weird.

[00:49:45]>> Bizarre.

[00:49:46]>> Yeah. I mean this is basically sort of uh foder to all of the people saying these technologies are use being used as crutches. I mean that's that's the the sad thing here. This is like a monumentally poor decision. Um John thoughts?

[00:50:02]>> Uh I I feel like the requirements aren't weren't saying that 15 fps base with frame gen necessarily.

[00:50:10]>> Well, that's the implication, right? If you're at low at 1080p at 30 fps using frame generation, then your base frame rate is going to be at best half that.

[00:50:18]>> No, I feel I feel like they're saying you can play low at 1080p at 30 fps or use frame generation.

[00:50:26]>> There's no war in there though, is there? Oh, actually, you're quite right.

[00:50:30]The low at 1080p 30 fps with FSR or >> Yeah, >> I think I think actually no, no, no. I think that I think that the original point is correct. FSR or XCSS balanced and frame generation either. So maybe >> maths is either or I'm skeptical that they would actually recommend that though. That seems insane. Like if that's actually what they're recommending, then they're morons.

[00:50:57]>> Like that's a terrible experience. Like >> I I just it's such a stupid idea to frame Jen up to 30 fps that I I hope they're just like mis like I hope everybody's misreading this and they just wrote it poorly because like surely they can't be recommending it. Please tell me no.

[00:51:15]>> The thing the thing that's going to happen is that everybody is now going to test the middle specs to see what the experience is actually like. So, the one thing I'll say is that if it is UEI5, like I presume because um TT Games abandoned their custom tech and moved on to UEIE, uh a 4070 cannot play these games at XSS or DLSS quality mode uh at 4K like they recommend. There's no UE5 game that runs at 4K60 with internal resolution 1440p on a 4070. There hasn't ever been one that uses Lumen, Nanite, or any of the the other higherend technologies there. So either they're issuing those technologies or it does actually mean frame gen enabled >> scale.

[00:52:00]>> Okay.

[00:52:00]>> Which aren't >> both are less than ideal situations to a degree >> to say the least.

[00:52:05]>> I guess we just need to wait and see uh when the game comes out how it actually performs and uh and to to test this this 30 fps frame gen situation. It's not going to be great. Let's uh end with this question from Richard Leadworst. Hi guys. Greetings from Chile. Not really a question, but just wanted to let you know here that pico is a very vulgar word for the male organ. So, you really make me laugh every time you mention how impressive the pico upscaler is. Keep up the good work. Exclamation point. Does make you wonder what else we're saying in other languages, you know, whether we're insulting people's mothers or stuff like that.

[00:52:40]>> I mean, you remember uh there was that the word spaz, as I found out, should not be used in the UK, >> right? But it's okay in in America, right? I mean, Working Designs, the company, they had a that offshoot label called Spaz, which is for action games, right? Nobody batted an eye, but now I see why they would never have released that in the UK.

[00:53:03]>> Yeah, it's uh usually not a very nice word in a lot of languages, I think. Uh I think pico though comes from just means small in like isn't that like a Isn't that what it is? It's like a >> like pico8 and everything, >> I think. I think. Doesn't pico just mean small?

[00:53:20]>> Maybe.

[00:53:21]>> Yeah. So, it could. Yeah.

[00:53:24]>> Well, >> it's it's the progressive image uh compositor according to Guerilla Games and Nixis. So, yeah.

[00:53:32]>> Isn't there a game publisher called Pico these days?

[00:53:36]>> Pico Interactive.

[00:53:38]>> Yeah. So, there's a picoggram. It means one trillionth according to Mariam Webster's dictionary.

[00:53:44]>> Okay.

[00:53:45]I guess uh in Chile with >> Well, of course, Sega released the Pico kids console, which is slightly unfortunate if you're in Chile, I guess.

[00:53:56]>> Yeah, they they renamed it there, I hope.

[00:54:00]>> What are you selling to my children?

[00:54:03]>> Anyway, let's let's let's just put all of this aside now. Let's put male organs aside for the time being. Uh that was the last question, if you can call it a question. Uh therefore, the end of the show. So, please do like, subscribe, share on the off chance you enjoyed it.

[00:54:15]Ring bells for notifications, that kind of thing. Do you have supporter program?

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[00:54:41]Bye-bye.