Sangu Mandanna | Fantasy FanReads Podcast

[00:00:09]Hey there, how are you? Welcome to the Fantasy Fan Reads Podcast, where [music] we gather as friends to chat about our shared love of all things reading. I'm Jess, an avid lifelong reader and lover of cozy conversations. So, go ahead and grab yourself a warm cup of something wonderful, and come on in. Today's episode is an interview with one of my favorite cozy fantasy authors. I'm joined by Sungu Mandana, the author of cozy fantasy novels such as The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches and A Witch's Guide to Magical Inkeeping. In this interview, we dive into all of the amazing things about the cozy fantasy genre and the hope in it that inspires us all. A quick heads up as we get started. This episode is spoiler-free for Sunu's books, but we will be discussing characters and themes from the stories. Fantasy Fan Reads is also the newest podcast in the Fantasy Fang Girls Media Network and as a new show, your support means the world. Please give us a follow at Fantasy Fan Reads on social media. Rate and review the podcast and spread the word to your friends. Plus, if you want to help support every show under the Fantasy Fang Girls Media Network, you can join the Fantasy Fan Club for exclusive content, early access, and ad free episodes, live Q&A, book club, private Discord, community events, and so much more. Go on over to fantasyfanggirl.com/fanclub for more information about the fantasy fanatics and deep divers tiers and benefits where you get all show access.

[00:01:30]Now let's cozy up and enjoy this amazing conversation with Sunu. Hey there Sunu.

[00:01:35]How are you doing today?

[00:01:36]>> Hi Jess. I'm good, thank you. How are you?

[00:01:39]>> I'm doing really well. I'm so excited to chat with you today because in the fantasy fan reads community, we are huge lovers of cozy fantasy and your two adult novels come to mind for people all the time and are like at the top of the recommendation list. So, I'm super excited to chat with you.

[00:01:56]>> Yeah. No, I'm really glad to be here.

[00:01:58]Thank you.

[00:01:59]>> Yeah, your characters have really like carved their ways into our hearts. Maybe not even the ones you would think. Like the zombie chicken might be my favorite and people DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. In fairness, the zombie chicken is also my favorite. So, I feel like Yeah, we're in good company. Yeah, >> absolutely. Oh my gosh. Well, at the top of every Fantasy Fan Reads episode, I like to ask all my guests a few quick questions to get to know each other a little bit. And I'm wondering right out of the gate, are you reading anything right now? And if so, what are you reading? Or what types of books do you enjoy?

[00:02:33]>> Um, oh, so mo I I mean, I don't think I'm I'm not fussy about genre. I enjoy most things. I mean, I have a special love for fantasy and romance, like both together and separately, um, and all the subg genres therein. But I also really enjoy, so when I'm writing, part of like the process or the way my brain works is that I can't read things that are similar >> to what I'm writing >> because it all kind of gets muddled in my head. So, when I'm in the middle of drafting, I tend to read a lot of like crime and thrillers.

[00:03:09]>> Yes.

[00:03:11]>> Because, you know, it's like the polar opposite of what I write >> and it's a skill set I do not have and I will probably never write a crime novel or a thriller. So, it's a safe bet. But right now, I'm actually reading The Someday Garden by Ashley Poston.

[00:03:28]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:30]>> Yeah. it. I just started it, so you know, can't say too much about it yet, but you know, I love Ashley's books.

[00:03:36]I've loved all of them, so I'm I'm excited.

[00:03:39]>> Do you have any favorite thriller authors that come to mind or like crime novels? Because that is my go-to. All right, I'm ready. I need to know your recommendations in the crime world.

[00:03:48]>> I mean, I have phases where I will like >> like I'll find an author or I will and I'll binge a lot. Mhm.

[00:03:55]>> Some recent favorites were um The Mave of Carrian series by Jane Casey.

[00:04:01]>> Okay.

[00:04:02]>> If you haven't read those, you absolutely should. They're set in the UK. They're about this sort of this female detective or Mave who is, you know, solving crimes, doing her thing.

[00:04:14]And there's also like this, [laughter] cuz I'm me. There's also this slow burn with another detective. [laughter] And I'm when I say slow burn, I'm talking like 14 books. Um >> Okay, [laughter] that is slow.

[00:04:27]>> So it is and it's still going. So I really enjoy those. I love I love Karen Slaughter.

[00:04:34]>> Yes, I do too.

[00:04:36]>> I absolutely love it. Um I recently found out that is her actual name, which is wild to me.

[00:04:42]>> I thought that was a pen name for sure.

[00:04:44]>> Think wouldn't you? Um no, apparently that's her actual name. So well done Karen. you um yeah, you did your thing.

[00:04:51]Yeah, I love her books. I mean, all of them actually. I enjoy the series. I enjoy the standalone.

[00:04:57]>> Probably my favorite recently was We Are All Guilty Here.

[00:05:02]>> Oh, >> it's the one that came out last year, I think. Sort of kicked off a new series.

[00:05:08]Um really enjoyed that one.

[00:05:10]>> Oh, I have to check that. I'm behind on my thriller reading because I've been so wrapped in fantasy, but it is definitely like you what you just said like I'm not a writer, but sometimes you're like, "Okay, I've read enough magic. I got to go somewhere else."

[00:05:25]>> Yeah. And for me, I I will always write magic. Always.

[00:05:29]>> But sometimes I just want to read something so completely different.

[00:05:33]>> Yes.

[00:05:33]>> That Yeah. And and thrillers just just get me like And the more unhinged the better to be honest.

[00:05:40]>> Same. And then I recommend them to people and I'm like, "This one really walloped me." And they read it and they're like, "What's wrong with you?"

[00:05:47]And I'm like, "I love it." I don't know.

[00:05:49]>> There are also the ones where, and I often say this to people. I will say, you know, you absolutely should read this book. Definitely read it, but don't think about it too much cuz it makes no sense, [laughter and gasps] >> but it's so entertaining and such a vibe that you will enjoy it. It is an addictive read. Just don't think about it.

[00:06:06]>> It's almost like some books read like TV shows. like you can read them a little bit like I hate to say reading them passively because of course you're engaged while reading but it's like you just said it's that more like I'm just vibing with it taking it in. It's just a good time. [laughter] >> Yeah. And it's that compulsive kind of absolutely like the definition of a page turner.

[00:06:26]>> Yes.

[00:06:27]>> And Yeah. So I really do I absolutely love a good thriller. Will never write one. I don't have that skill set but that's part of why I [laughter] love them.

[00:06:37]Well, it's a good thing other people have the skill set then so we [laughter] can all benefit.

[00:06:42]>> Yeah. Um, you said you've been reading fantasy. What have you been reading at the moment?

[00:06:46]>> Oh, that's a great So, I'm currently reading Light Wielder by Rachel Schneider. It's the sequel to Metal Slinger that like kind of took the world by storm like a year ago with a cliffhanger. It's romanty, but the first book ends in a way that has you like feeling like you were gas lit for the entire book. So, I [laughter] was waiting for this sequel. So, I'm reading that.

[00:07:10]>> Okay. This is actually really good to know because now I know that if I cuz I hadn't actually come across that one. If I read the first one, I now know the second is there.

[00:07:20]>> Yes. And then I am about to start I have an advanced reader copy of Cararissa Broadbent's new book that will be coming out in the Crowns of Naxia series with her vampires and all that stuff. That's the Serpent and the Wings of >> Yes, that's the first book in the Yep.

[00:07:37]And the fifth one is about to come out and I have that copy. So, as soon as I finish this one that I had to know what happened, I'm going to check that one out. So, I'm fully wrapped up in romantic right now. [laughter] >> That is a great space to be.

[00:07:52]>> Yeah. Do you have a go-to warm beverage?

[00:07:56]We love things in mugs here at Fantasy Fan Reads. Yes. And the cuter the mug, the better.

[00:08:02]>> Yes. [laughter] >> Like I mean I think I have an entire shelf in my house like in the kitchen of mugs that are just there to look at.

[00:08:12]>> Yes. You are our people.

[00:08:15]>> It [snorts] is absolutely like I think there's been like a general consensus of understanding in the house without me having to explicitly say it that we do not drink from those mugs.

[00:08:24]>> Yes. [laughter] >> Those are the those are the pretty mugs.

[00:08:27]Yes. So hot beverage. I am I waver. I have different ones and I have phases. I think I don't know if it's just like the ADHD but much like other things I will hyperfixate on drinks for a while.

[00:08:42]>> So a couple of years ago it was peppermint tea.

[00:08:47]>> Okay.

[00:08:47]>> Except so the way you're supposed to drink peppermint tea is that you steep the peppermint bag or leaves and then you're done. Right.

[00:08:55]>> Me I add a lot of sugar. [laughter] like so much sugar it's it's criminal. People have actually, you know, wanted to to like refer me to the police [laughter] for this. So that I mean like I think that sort of what sums it up is that I like both icy cold and boiling hot drinks as long as they're sweet. So yes, a peppermint tea and my current favorite is a caramel chai latte, which you know, I mean, like I'm Indian, so the whole chai latte thing, I have mixed feelings, but I do love this one.

[00:09:32]>> Do you make it yourself or do you get it from somewhere? [laughter] >> No. No, it's not a job.

[00:09:38]>> Sorry, you just had a visceral reaction [laughter] to that.

[00:09:42]No, my motto on on drinks and food in general is the least effort possible.

[00:09:48]So, it is literally powdered like chai and then you add like boiling water.

[00:09:53]It's like the easiest thing. And then because I'm me, I also add like an absolute dollop of like, you know, the whipped cream that comes in a can.

[00:10:00]>> Yes.

[00:10:01]>> Yes.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah.

[00:10:03]>> Amazing. I feel like you're a beverage person after my own heart because one time I tried to become a black coffee drinker. I was like, "This would be better for me." And then I was like, "Who does this?"

[00:10:14]>> My husband does that. Yeah.

[00:10:15]>> No, >> he is. That man will not drink a hot beverage with any sweetness in it at all. Like he drinks like normal English breakfast builder tea with uh milk, no sugar, >> and he will have black coffee, only black. He will not put milk in it. He will not put sweeteners in it. It's just just there. And he enjoys this. I don't understand it.

[00:10:40]>> That feels like the most joyless experience of all time.

[00:10:43]>> It does. [laughter] He enjoys it somehow. And you know, he will do his usual like and he I think he enjoys the bit now. The fact that I look at him in horror and he says, "Yes, as black as my heart and all that." It's [laughter] like, you know, one of those like those cringy dad jokes that he's because, you know, we have three children, so he loves doing he loves a dad joke. Um Oh, yeah. But yeah, so somehow yes, there are people out there who do enjoy black coffee. [laughter] >> Well, if you could have your chai latte or peppermint tea, your choice, with any two book characters, who would you sit down and have a drink with? And they could be from your own books or just from books you love, your choice.

[00:11:22]>> Oh, you know, that is a great question.

[00:11:25]And the only reason I hesitate is because there's so many.

[00:11:28]>> Yeah, >> there are so many. Right. Yeah.

[00:11:30]>> Um, I will avoid my own characters for the moment just because >> egotistical and all that. [laughter] >> We'll get to them later.

[00:11:40]>> We'll get to them later. So, well, I'm actually looking on my like on the wall of my of my office is a a framed photo of the well a framed like print of the the castle from How's Moving Castle.

[00:11:56]>> It's I don't know. I love that book. I love that movie. It's a very like it's an inspiration for me. So, I have it on the wall. And that is making me think that I would I think How would need to be one of them.

[00:12:07]>> Okay.

[00:12:07]>> Just for the chaotic unhinged energy he would bring to this to this experience.

[00:12:13]And the other one actually, if we're going to go down the chaotic unhinged theme, have you ever read any of Jesse Q Satanto's books?

[00:12:23]>> I have not. So, her biggest like one or like her breakout hit was Dial A for Aunties, which is so funny. But the one I'm thinking of is Vera Wong's Unsolicited Advice for Murderers.

[00:12:39]>> Okay. And it is a cozy mystery effectively in which this elderly I think she's Malaysian like Chinese Malay lady uh finds a corpse in her restaurant and immediately decides that she would be far better suited to solving this crime than the authorities [laughter] >> of course.

[00:13:01]>> And it's just it's also got this found family and she's just so chaotic and unhinged. So yes, I think Howal and Vera and I would have a great coffee date.

[00:13:11]>> Great time. You are the second person I have talked to recently who is having a drink with people from How's Moving Castle. And this is the moment I have to admit I have never seen that or read that.

[00:13:23]>> And now I feel very left out.

[00:13:25]>> You know, you will love it. I really think you will. It is just so, you know, I mean, for the to this day, I don't know if it was written originally as a children's book because it does it reads like one, but it also doesn't, if that makes sense. Completely ageless and timeless. It is adorable. It is. Yeah. I just The movie like the is a little bit different, but they're both stand on their own >> as very, very good pieces of art, and I think you will enjoy them. Who did the other person pick? The Sophie.

[00:13:58]>> Yes, Sophie is a favorite of mine.

[00:14:01]>> Too sensible for this particular chaotic coffee date.

[00:14:03]>> Well, yeah. You built a different coffee, David, than [laughter] they did.

[00:14:08]>> I have this little piece of scrap paper going over here with my very official Crayola marker and I'm like writing down all of your book recommendations [laughter] on this like scrap I have cuz this is a treasure trove. My >> TBR. I I could go on for a while on Yeah.

[00:14:24]Who would you pick out of curiosity?

[00:14:27]>> Oh, that is a great question. Oh my gosh. So, I have different ways like I think about this one like you did like a little chaotic or do I want this cozy coffee date, but I also think of characters that I just want to like hug and be like it's okay. Like the mom in me wants to be like it'll be okay. And so, one of them is DM from Pen Cole's Kindred's Curse Saga. She is the ma female main character of that series and she's so young and she's going through so much and I just want to be like it'll be okay, you know? Like I just want to like give her a hug.

[00:15:04]>> I'm going to write that down. I haven't read that.

[00:15:07]>> Oh, it's so good. And the fourth book, which will be the end of the series.

[00:15:11]It's these ones that are all orange above me here. Um is coming out in early September. So, you're like jumping on the train at the perfect >> like almost a complete series. And then I also love another I don't know if I'd really call it completely cozy, but it has that vibe at the start is the assistant to the villain series by Hannah Nicole Mayor. And I would sit down with Eevee I think because Eeve is another character.

[00:15:33]>> Great. I came to that series relative well I say relatively late obviously it's still going but I think the first one was had been out for a while when I started. I think the second one had just come out when I started reading it. Yes, I do adore Eevee.

[00:15:47]>> Yes. So those would be my two. I also think they could just like girl talk together, have a little bit of a fun time. [laughter] I don't know.

[00:15:54]>> Oh my goodness. Well, my last question I have for you before I have some questions about like you as an author and your journey with books and writing them, and this is sometimes the hardest one for people, so we'll see. But how does reading bring you joy? Like when you think about the joy of reading, what do you think of? Uh I mean I think probably the easiest if somewhat simplistic answer is the escapism.

[00:16:22]>> Mhm.

[00:16:22]>> But you know it's an interesting thing because sometimes like we were just talking about Karen Slaughter like you wouldn't exactly want to escape to those worlds. Like I mean you know why would you? [laughter] Um but it's I don't know. It's this strange kind of maybe it's because even in like most thrillers, especially the ones I enjoy, there is a sense of closure and justice at the end. And I think right now, especially the world we're living in, we sort of feel very much like we're in dire need of of seeing somebody get their comeuppance, you know, [snorts] even if it's just this fictional serial killer.

[00:17:05]We need someone to like we need to be told that things will work out and you know the bad people will will not be allowed to keep being bad to put it simply. And then of course you know with things like cozy fantasy and children's adventure books and >> it's just that >> I enjoy [clears throat] being in this new world sometimes it's because it's a world I want to actually be in. It's like I wish I could live in that world.

[00:17:34]Like one of my favorites for that one is it's a middle-grade fantasy novel called The Trials of Morgan Crow. I think that the series is called Never More, but the first book is The Trials of Morgan Crow, and it is just this delightful middle-grade fantasy, which has this incredibly intricate, fascinating world that I would love to visit.

[00:17:53]>> Nice. And then, you know, there are also the worlds that you don't necessarily want to visit, but they're just so fun to be in for a little while.

[00:18:02]>> And I think, yeah, that's part of the joy is that feeling of escaping whatever reality we're in now or sometimes even see reading a book that acknowledges the reality we're living in, but gives us a sense that there's something better on the horizon.

[00:18:21]>> Yes.

[00:18:22]>> Yeah. So much of the joy from reading is escaping is hope and you know and also I think I'm in my kind of angry woman era you know [laughter] I think there comes a point and you know and this is this is a fault like a societal fault not a fault of any individual person but there's a thing that like we sort of internalize when we're younger as women that being angry is just unattractive and unacceptable and >> at some point hopefully Y and we unpack that and then we realize actually we have every right [laughter] to be angry. And I think that sometime like I'm in my 30s now and I think that is very much I'm at that point where I'm like I don't particularly care about whether you think it's acceptable or attractive that I'm angry. I am.

[00:19:11][clears throat] And so one of the things I really enjoy about reading is books that will give me that sense of vicarious, you know, revenge stories and just >> Yes. Like, yeah, just that kind of thing.

[00:19:24]>> Oh, I've really gotten into like feminine rage in books lately. Like, everything you just said. And then the discourse online drives me crazy because people are so much harder on female characters than they are on male characters. Male characters can burn the world to the ground. And it's sexy, you know, and female characters are rightfully angry about the injustices in their world. And people are like, "She's a little bit much." [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:19:53]>> No, she's not.

[00:19:55]>> It's usually kind of like they boil it down to we're being whiny.

[00:19:59]>> Y >> um like female rage is sort of infantilized as whiny and and you know, just a little Yeah. a bit much like you said. Whereas male rage is arguably a lot more dangerous and is somehow sort of validated as inevitable.

[00:20:21]>> Yes. Yes. Like it was just meant to be that way. That Yes.

[00:20:25]>> This is just how men are. They are angry. And the thing is, yeah, everyone like we're humans. We're all ang bizarre that one form of anger is almost venerated. and and [clears throat] >> by virtue of that often turns toxic so easily >> whereas the other is infantilized and dismissed. But I agree with you like it is nice to have stories where we can escape into that or see versions of that and then like feel it for ourselves and like I learned so much about myself from reading characters who maybe are acting in ways I wouldn't have or you know like oh I didn't even realize that was A POSSIBILITY YOU KNOW and it's really cool >> and I [clears throat] would say that like so many of these books like in reality we wouldn't actually behave this way. We wouldn't actually want to go on these, you know, wild revenge sprees, but they're very satisfying to me.

[00:21:17]>> They sure are. Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, not that I want to I mean, this is a weird segue from anger and revenge, too, but I want I want to kick off kind of the middle part of the interview here, a little bit more about your books and you as an author.

[00:21:34]And I'm wondering if you could start off by telling us a little bit about your journey of being an author because I know many of the people listening probably know you from your two adult cozy fantasy novels, but that is not your only catalog of books. In fact, those are the more recent.

[00:21:50]>> Absolutely. I think it's it is one of those things about um I think like all creative industries whether you're acting or you know art or writing a book there's this idea that if you don't >> sort of get it like right and I'm putting right in air quotes here because obviously you know that's not an objective measurement if you don't knock it out of the park the first time then that's it over you're done >> and I'm very much and I'm not you know ashamed of it or that I'm I'm a late breakout. I my you know, like you said, my sort of my big breakout hit was The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches, and that was I want to say my eighth novel. I had books before that. I have I still to this day I get emails and messages from readers who love those books, >> but it's not they're not the ones that sort of >> hit. And you know, and that's partly timing. Like [snorts] I am a big like I think I' I've reached the point in my career where I'm not going to downplay my own kind of hard work and my own skill >> because it is hard work and there is skill and talent but also there's luck and I think it's disingenuous to pretend there isn't that so much of success kind of depends on luck and timing [clears throat] and who says what about your book when that is entirely part of the reason that I wasn't didn't have particularly big breakouts before that.

[00:23:20]I'm also, you know, I think we grow as writers.

[00:23:24]>> I'm a much better writer than I was when I was 22, which is when my first book came out. And yeah, it was a [sighs] h it's been a weird journey. This is something I've always wanted to do.

[00:23:36]>> At no point did it ever occur to me that I wouldn't do this in some way. Not necessarily professionally, it's just that I was always going to write.

[00:23:45]It was the thing I did for fun.

[00:23:48]>> And so I was very young, sort of 15 I think when I first started published.

[00:23:53]And you know, let's not even go into the the cringy things I sent out at the time. They will never see the light of day and nor should they ever. [laughter] But I think one of the great things about things like that is that you start learning early how [snorts] to do things, how to submit to an agent, how to format a manuscript. You know, these are not these are not the most important things in a writing career, but they do matter because when you're well, you know, it's I think it comes back to like that basic concept of obviously the content is the most important thing. But the presentation does matter >> and so you kind of learn that early and you know, if nothing [clears throat] else, every single manuscript I wrote, however terrible, was sort of a stepping stone that helped me get better. And so I did this for a while and then I think when I was 22 I finally wrote a manuscript that was worth publishing and it went nowhere. I mean it was published. It's called The Lost Girl and it came out in 2012 and it's hardly anyone has heard of it. It didn't sell very much. It was by all kind of accounts a failure. M >> what was really interesting about that is that people who did read it >> then asked to see something else >> or people who read it but didn't >> necessarily want anything else just wanted to tell me how much it meant to them >> and these are the things that kind of keep you going when you think okay I failed and again I don't really see it as a failure anymore I did at the time but now I kind of see it as yet another stepping stone another building block and it took 6 years after that again not ashamed of this it's just the reality six years to write another book that anyone was willing to publish >> and it's kind of been non-stop since then it yeah it has been a very strange journey lots of ups and downs lots of times when I absolutely thought that I was never going to get anywhere >> I was still going to do it because it was what I love to do but I I did and you know, I'm now in the extremely fortunate position of writing full-time and being able to do that, >> making money from my books, which was, you know, always the dream.

[00:26:15]>> Yeah.

[00:26:16]>> And it's Yeah. I don't know. I don't want to be trit and say it's, you know, don't give up, but that is sort of the fundamental of my journey is that I >> sort of, again, air quotes, failed a lot of times >> and kept going. But you know what I will say is that the only reason I kept going is because I loved what I was doing.

[00:26:40]>> Yes.

[00:26:41]>> And I think that love, that passion is what carries a lot of young writers through. And you need it because it's a it's a brutal industry. Lots of rejection, >> lots of and then, you know, even after you get past all the hurdles, like I just said, you can be a fullyfledged published author and still get nowhere.

[00:27:00]>> And passion is the only thing that sort of keeps you going. I mean, there's like a couple things about what you just said that resonate with me deeply, which is like we have the choice of what we do with what we perceive as failure, right?

[00:27:12]Like moments where you said you felt like you failed. You could have taken a left turn and been like, "Well, this is not what I'm doing anymore, but the passion and how important it was to you kept you going, right?" And I think sometimes those moments of failure teach us what we're really passionate about, right? like is this something I'm willing to push through these failures or these hurdles and keep going or is this really not you know what I was >> no do right >> yes it is one of those things it very much is a litmus test for how much you want it >> and and the thing is there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting to that point and realizing you know what this isn't worth >> the heartache I don't love it enough and that is also a great answer cuz you know >> now you know that that passion can be turned to something else. But for me it was an unequivocal well yeah this sucks but I'm going to do it anyway.

[00:28:06]>> Yeah. And I've talked to so many authors like I can tell you you are not alone in like the story that kind of follows this like man I was just doing what you know trying my best and all this stuff and I've talked to so many people who the theme of what they ultimately said about their author journey is >> I'm glad I didn't give up >> right because eventually I found my voice and I found you know and it just like you said like the right moment the right time things happened and it's never too late It really and and often in life we trick ourselves into thinking it's too late to do something.

[00:28:42]>> I honestly I think one of the most beautiful things about storytelling is that there is no kind of ceiling as to when you can start or when you should do it. You know, I often compare it to sort of sports and athletics and things like that. And yes, there are physical limitations to a lot of things. Like if you're passionate about gymnastics and you don't start early on, chances are you're [laughter] not going to be able to do it later on. I mean, it sucks, but that's what it is. Whereas with art and with writing, there is no, you know, you can be 73 and start. There's nothing wrong with that. You can be 35 and start. You can be >> 15. [laughter] If you're like me, you may not be writing very good things, but you can still start. That's the important thing.

[00:29:32]>> Yes. Absolutely. Oh, I love that so much. I'm so happy for you. I know you have more recently though published another middle-grade novel. Correct.

[00:29:41]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:29:42]>> Yeah.

[00:29:42]>> Uh Vana and the Wild Hunt that came out last year and the sequel is out next year.

[00:29:48]>> Amazing. Oh, that's so exciting because my ne I had a question for you about that about someone who writes for different age groups and I'm wondering how that kind of works for you like kind of what comes first like do you set out and you're like I want to write a middle-rade novel or is it more like the idea comes first and you're like who is this story for? Does that make sense?

[00:30:10]I'm wondering about that like hopping around. I guess that's an interesting question because the answer depends so much on where I am in the journey. So when I started out when I was first writing like the lost girl for example my first book I didn't intend that to be ya I was you know 20 writing this book I was pretty much a young adult and so it seemed natural to me to have a teenage character. So, the story came first and then the audience.

[00:30:43]Now, because I'm further along in my career and because most of the time when I start a new book, I'm already contracted in some way, I have to think about things like the target audience first. So, I do have to think, okay, what am I going to do? Is this book going to be is this next one going to be for children? Is it going to be for adults? And then structure the story around that. That doesn't necessarily mean that the story does instill it's still the most important thing but I do have to keep things like audience marketing salailability it's not the most creative part of the process but it is necessary when like I think that's probably the difference between doing it for fun which I do miss sometimes and doing it for work is that you do have to think about things beyond just the creative story. So yeah, I would say now as a writer, most of the time I do start off with okay, so this book is to be for kids.

[00:31:42]>> Gotcha.

[00:31:43]>> And then build from there.

[00:31:45]>> Do you see yourself continuing to write in different age groups like as your career continues?

[00:31:52]>> I think so. Yes. I think I'm going to slow down a bit. [clears throat] What I've discovered is that um it's exhausting to write multiple books at the same time and which is to say I think I need to kind of cut back kind of work on one book at a time just for myself for my own creativity for my own kind of you know for the for the semblance of the life outside work that would be lovely to have >> but I still want to write multiple age groups. I still love writing for kids and I love writing for adults. So, I will probably continue doing both. Just >> spread them out a bit more.

[00:32:35]I must admit my question was a little bit selfish because not that I don't appreciate I'm a teacher, so I appreciate a solid children's young adult novel, but just as a personal reader, I'm like, I want more grown-up books. Like, there will [laughter] absolutely be more grown-up books. Um, that is what's happening next. That's what I'm working on right now. It was an interesting question and a selfish one all wrapped up.

[00:32:59][laughter] >> Well, I want to zero in on your two current adult novels, A Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches and A Guide to Magical Inkeeping. I love them so much and I'm wondering I think probably one of my favorite things about those novels is the found family in both of them. like you write a lovely cast of characters that are so unique and individual, but they work together and they complete each other. And I'm wondering what is the process like for you in planning such a varied cast of characters? Like knowing what type of character you need and who's going to come in when because they really are books with quite a variety of people or animals in them. So what does that planning look like for you? [sighs] >> That is a great question. Um, a lot of it is feel or vibes as I am one to say.

[00:33:54]In fact, it's quite an unsatisfying answer because a lot of it is instinct and feel.

[00:33:59]>> Good.

[00:34:00]>> Who is the central character? Cuz I usually I have them first. Not always, but usually they come first and then I think, so who have they got in their lives >> or who are they going to find and how does that work?

[00:34:14]>> So, you know, with like a witch's guide to magical inkeeping, for example, Sarah was the heart of the story. And I knew very early on that she was going to have an elderly, well, semi-elderly great aunt who was going to be her, you know, primary caregiver. And then it was about who is Jasmine, who is this great aunt, and then how do we build out from there?

[00:34:38]Who are the other people? And then because you know a lot of it also ties into setting >> with that book because it was an inn.

[00:34:45]There was a lot of fun in Okay, so who's going to be at this in who else is going to turn up and just refuse to leave ever? [laughter] and you know and that and sometimes the question like I ask these questions and my answer is always well what's the most fun answer I can possibly come up with because for supporting characters I like to have fun with them >> I want them to feel fully three-dimensional like people with real desires and fears of their own but I also want them to be fun and >> ideally a little bit unhinged you know and so that's how you end up with things like Ruru the zombie chicken or Nicholas who just lives as a knight 24/7.

[00:35:32]>> And I know and I love him. I love him because again and I think what's important for me is that I take the silliness and the whimsy and the fun and I make sure that it's grounded in something real. Like with Nicholas for example, he's dealing with a lot of sort of internalized guilt and a need to break away from an oppressive privileged family. And he translates that in his head as I'm going to like I want to be somebody who protects rather than oppresses.

[00:36:05]>> And I'm going to take this nightliness seriously.

[00:36:08]>> And so it's silly and it's whimsical, but at the same time it comes from something real. And I think that's how I like to make it work.

[00:36:16]>> I love that. And that c that so much comes through because not that I mean I must admit I love the main characters in your stories, but the ones that make me like like clutch my heart are characters like Nicholas because I feel like you are showcasing these parts of humanity that sometimes we don't even recognize in ourselves. And like there's always a character in one of your books that I'm like, [gasps] I relate to this so much.

[00:36:43]Like even if it's not the main character, there's someone that I'm like, "Oh, I get it. I get it. I feel seen." And it's it's so fun that you have such a wide cast of people who are coming from all walks of life or ethnicities or backgrounds. It's so fun to read. So I think your answer was lovely. That was a very satisfying.

[00:37:03][laughter] >> I'm glad I'm glad that it was. I always feel like you know the like the fundamental answer which is that I have to sort of feel my way through it just not very helpful but it is the way it works. [laughter] >> Well I'm wondering if you were a character in a found family dynamic.

[00:37:21]>> Which archetypal character would you be?

[00:37:24]Like there's always like the grumpier one, the chaotic one, you know what I the type one. So who who are you?

[00:37:30][laughter] >> You know a little bit of all of them to be honest. Um, I can see myself, again, I think this is one of those things where if you'd asked me 10 years ago, my answer would have been different, >> but now, you know, at the ripe old age of 38, I very much feel like I would be that sort of somewhat grumpy, [clears throat] >> somewhat I mean, no, I wouldn't even say grumpy. I would say cranky, like fully like I want to be asleep. Why am I having to do things? that person who also, you know, simultaneously takes in every kind of stray and that comes their way. Like I can see myself as a slightly chaotic, extremely grumpy matriarch of a found family. [laughter] >> Like I would absolutely need to be in charge.

[00:38:19]>> I feel that deeply. I was thinking about this question when I wrote it and I was like I was looking in the mirror. I'm like who would I be? and a thousand% like the person like I love a little bit of chaos but I would clean up after everyone like this house before we go to bed.

[00:38:33]>> A lot of like anger in my in my voice.

[00:38:36]Yes. Oh yeah. I [laughter] would be cracking the whip and saying no. If you're going to make your mess, clean it up. [laughter] But yeah, it's it is a fascinating thing because a while ago I would have said I would probably be, you know, the the fledgling sort of looking for that place to belong.

[00:38:54]>> Yeah.

[00:38:54]>> Whereas now I feel sort of I'm older.

[00:38:56]I'm more settled and I kind of feel like >> I am happy to welcome you if you were looking for a place to belong.

[00:39:04]>> So I'm sort of like on the other side probably like you know in the actual in a narrative I'd be the supporting character. [laughter] not really the main character looking for space anymore. Um, yeah, which is fine actually because there's way too much drama in main characters lives.

[00:39:22]>> True. Very true.

[00:39:23]>> I very much like it like in terms of the actual characters in the books, I sort of see myself as an Ian or a Matilda. I will welcome you all. I will be slightly chaotic and unhinged, but you know, I'm there for you.

[00:39:37]>> Mhm. I love that. I love that. I don't want to I don't I have I have a little bit of main character energy in my own life, but if I don't know that I have enough to be like [laughter] the main character of like you said, there's too much going on. Like I'm too for this.

[00:39:50]>> I think what I've learned over the years is that I enjoy not having main character drama in my life. I don't need that.

[00:39:59]>> Well, one of the like maybe more funny critiques of the fantasy genre is always like where are the 40year-old main characters? And I'm like, they're busy not doing this. [laughter] >> They are just enjoying their lives. They Yes, very much so. Um, I mean, the book I've got, the book I'm writing right now, I can't say too much about it, but [laughter] like the main characters are 36 and I've already forgotten the other one's age. I think 41. [laughter] >> Okay.

[00:40:29]>> Okay. But you know the gist is that they are they are settled but also they have entirely unwelcome main character dramas thrust into their lives and you know >> oh my gosh well I mean on top of the amazing casts of characters in both of these books you also have created settings that are darn near a character themselves in in both books. They have opinions. They are magical and they insert themselves into the story. I'm wondering which one of the settings so if we're thinking about like nowhere house or the inn, which one would you want to live in and why?

[00:41:09][sighs] I do I love the idea of the inn. Um I created it. It was always supposed to be kind of a character of its own.

[00:41:18]>> I love the idea that it's sort of like this beacon in the dark for people who need it, but also a shield. telling the people who would do you know it harm. Um but I also feel like the inn is the sort of place I would love to visit. Again this this comes back to the fact that I need a little bit more peace in my life and there is just one too many chaotic things going on >> at the end. Nowhere house is I mean I guess may probably of the two that's the one I'd pick because again it is this wonderfully welcoming soft beautiful setting. Like I'm a sucker for like pretty houses and like sort of like the cottage core vibe, >> but it is also more less in and more home. It's less less of, you know, ins [laughter] and outs.

[00:42:05]>> Yeah, >> I think I would find that a little more calming.

[00:42:08]>> I agree. I I struggled with I was thinking about this because I was like, "Okay, well, who am I signing up to live with?" Like, it's not just >> That is also true.

[00:42:16]>> And I'm like, "Who is more chaotic for me?" three young witches learning their craft or an undead [laughter] chicken and a talking fox, you know, like. So, I was like, I don't know. Again, I'm like too old for maybe either of them. I'm not sure.

[00:42:34]>> Yeah, I'm thinking [laughter] about this. Well, I mean, no, I am a parent of three children. They're not as young anymore. So, so I feel like I could come to terms with that. I can get my head around the idea of three young children being chaotic in a house. the, you know, zombie chicken, I love the idea of him.

[00:42:50]I would welcome him into my home any day. But Clem the talking fox, like she's a step too far. She is the one.

[00:42:59]>> That one is trouble. I loved writing her, but would I want her in my life? I don't think so.

[00:43:06]>> I mean, now that you really bring that to the forefront, >> I probably couldn't live with Clemi either. like if all been said and done, >> the thing is she is very lovable in her own way and she is very loyal in her own way, but she is, you know, she's she's fundamentally self-absorbed. She is chaotic. She is she's trouble like capital T trouble.

[00:43:29]>> I agree. [laughter] She is. Oh my gosh.

[00:43:32]Oh, I love it. But I Oh my gosh. I just have so many things I love about your book. I feel like each of these questions is just like, "Let me tell you something I love about your book and you tell me how you did it. [laughter] I love that.

[00:43:42]>> I do. But I feel like another one of the things I so much appreciate about the cozy fantasy genre is the way that we get to be cozy and still have emotional depth, right? And I think sometimes when I talk to people who haven't read cozy fantasy, they're like, "But does anything happen?" You know, like, and I'm like, "No, you don't understand."

[00:44:04]And like people might not be stabbing each other with swords, but there is like great things happening for these characters and lessons to learn. And I'm wondering how you balance making sure like what are some of the things you have to consider when you want it to be whimsical and cozy, but you want that depth and you don't want to go like how do you balance that? I feel like that would be hard.

[00:44:26]>> It is. It is tricky. It's a lot of trial and error. I do try different things because for me it is very very important that I like and it's not even so much balancing it. It's like much like with Nicholas, it feels real and true to me when the silliness and the whimsy is grounded in something real. And so those two just come hand in hand with me. And it also works the other way around where sometimes when there's something real and hard, you sort of mask it or escape from it or deal with it by kind of leaning into the more joyful things. So it is a lot of playing around with that of writing scenes and writing sort of plot lines and then thinking, hang on, do I need to strip some of this back? Do I need to add more? because sometimes it is also tonally I can talk about these things and I'm not going to shy away from anything I want to talk about but the way I'm discussing it or the way I'm presenting it might not be right tonally for the book and so I pivot a little bit and so it is a lot of trial and error it is a tricky thing to balance and and you know I absolutely don't get it right first time round I do a lot of edits a lot of drafts a lot of rethinking. Like my thinking time is the longest part of my process and it like for anyone on the outside it looks like I'm sitting around doing nothing but that thinking time is so important for the process for me. And so, you know, sometimes midway through a draft, I will just stop writing for three weeks because things are just kind of and they need to sort of work themselves out in my head first. And a lot of that is sort of then going back and then I've I change the things I just wrote because something I don't sort of draft from beginning to end without stopping. I edit as I go. I change things. I need things to feel right to be able to move forward. Yeah. It's just a lot of trial and error. But it I mean it works. And then like what I also love to tell people is like these books like yours at the core of your two adult novels, we still have an oppressive rigid system that is affecting our characters, right? The guild. And we see this in maybe more traditional fantasy as well, but it's like we're having a war with oppression, you know, and you are writing more >> like the everyday versions of these things, right?

[00:46:59]systems exists, right? And in your books, we therefore we see some of your main characters feeling like they've been outcast or they are outcasts by these systems and they're trying to find their place in this world. Why do you think maybe that theme or that kind of everyday version of that theme resonates so much with readers or or why was it so important for you to include in your books? I think it sort of all comes back to that feeling of and I think most people unless you are one of a very select few privileged people most people at some point feel a sense of am I enough for this particular >> place do I really belong here do I fit in I think you have to have a certain level of ingrained self-confidence is probably the nicest way I can put it ego. Um, sort of like a narcissistic inwardlooking. I'm the only thing that matters is probably the more, you know, realistic way to look at it. Very few people don't question themselves at some point.

[00:48:12]>> Yeah, >> it's usually the tech billionaires and that's how they got where they are by not at any point questioning themselves [laughter] or what they're doing.

[00:48:21]But you know obviously on the other end of that very very wide spectrum are people who are marginalized in so many ways >> and obviously you know I'm not you know ticking boxes but growing up I I'm neurode divergent I have ADHD but I was undiagnosed until my 30s >> so there was always this sense that I wasn't quite clicking with the world around me and then you know when I moved moved to the UK and started living here.

[00:48:53]there was that immigrant kind of understanding that do you actually do do you belong and you know and you know how far do you change yourself to belong [clears throat] and I think so much of that comes out in these books where for me the answer and again I'm not saying it's the only answer or the right answer but for me the answer is not to change but to >> carve out space where you can be >> wholly yourself and if you can't find that space to make it And yeah, like you said, these are there are rigid systems in place and that's how the real world is. And again, it sucks, but it is what it is. And we can fight that. We absolutely can. But for the most part, most individual people are not going to break this system. But what we can do is resist it in our own ways and make spaces where the system has less of an oppressive impact. And so that's how you get the inn, which Sarah has carved out a space where that is safe. That is a sanctuary.

[00:49:58]>> Yes.

[00:49:59]>> Where the bad things, they're not they're still there, but >> you're protected from them because you have people who get you.

[00:50:08]>> And with nowhere, again, it's sort of a refuge. It's a place where these particular adults have said, "No, >> nobody is going to get to these children here. we are going to make this a space where they get to be themselves. And Ma, who's never felt comfortable being wholly herself, >> this is a revelation to her. She comes to this place and she's like, >> "What do you mean I don't have to like mask so much of myself anymore?" And yeah, and you know, to come back to what you were saying about sort of the idea that because nothing happens, air quotes, but the thing is these stakes are they're smaller, but they're just as important for the people involved.

[00:50:50]They're not worldending stakes. The thing with cozy fantasy is that it's very rarely about saving the world, but it is about saving things that are important to the people. You know, you've got, let me save the coffee shop I just built. Let me save the bookshop that I love so much. let me save this home and these children that I've taken in. And these are things that resonate with real people cuz as much as we love as much as we love like the stories where good versus evil and you know, right, >> evil is vanquished and the world is saved and you get to be a hero wielding a sword. And I love those stories as much as anyone. Sometimes it's more relatable and more satisfying, at least for me, to read something that even if there's magic, it still feels like it's possible.

[00:51:36]>> I agree the whole time. I mean, I I could listen to you talk about this for a hundred years. We're just going to sit here. But it's your books and other books that are in this genre are real people solving their real problems in the best way that they are capable of.

[00:51:53]>> Yes. And I think sometimes, like I said, I love a broad, huge, fantastical, worldending story, but that is never going to hit as home to me as a character that feels like they could be my neighbor.

[00:52:07]>> Yes.

[00:52:07]>> Doing, you know, real things in their comm like you've taken the broad scope to these characters community. What change can I exact for my neighbors, the people right around me? And that feels so real. And [laughter] that's why it's so gripping because I will never do some of those other things, but I can make changes in my own town. I can care for my neighbors. I can care for my family.

[00:52:30]>> It is very much that that question of I can't change the world, but I can change this little space of it that I occupy.

[00:52:39]>> And if not change it, at least make it as welcoming and safe as possible for myself and for the people around me. Oh my gosh, I have goosebumps thinking about how much I love this genre for what it does. And I just I want more people to find these books and realize >> it's down to hope. I think at the end it's just that that sense of yeah, everything's a little bit crap, but not even a little bit. I mean, everything is terrible, but it is possible to find something better and to make something better. And and I think one of the things with cozy fantasy as well is that because it's a narrative, because it's a fantasy, >> there's very much a sense of agency.

[00:53:23]It's not about waiting for things to get better. It's about doing what you can to make it better in the space you've got.

[00:53:30]>> Oh, I love it. I love it so much. And I know we were talking before we pressed record that a gorgeous deluxe special edition paperback is coming out of the Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches not long after this interview will be airing. and I will be shouting from the rooftops for everyone to pick up this book if they haven't already because now it can be sparkly and purple and how much better could life be. But I'm wondering for new readers who might encounter your story who didn't before, what is one major takeaway you hope they will get from Ma's journey in that book?

[00:54:03]So Mika's journey is fundamentally about, you know, like we were saying, finding connection, finding a space where she gets to be wholly herself in a way she hasn't yet in her life. She's 31. She's not like, you know, I mean, again, obviously, you know, [laughter] the metric of humanness, she is still a young person. Yes. When you think about protagonists in novels, she's not young, >> but she is 31 and she hasn't yet found that space. And what she finds at Nowhere House is that these people, they are flawed people, sometimes chaotic, sometimes, you know, rash and reckless and sometimes very, very grumpy, but also hot cuz that's important.

[00:54:49][laughter] >> Well, of course.

[00:54:53]>> Of course. Yeah. I mean, again, it's a romance. Um, [laughter] but what she discovers is that whatever their flaws, these people are fundamentally kind and willing to unbend whatever rules they've built up in their lives about what's acceptable and what isn't and to open up >> to new possibilities. And I think probably what I would love and what I've always wanted readers to take away from this book is that sense that you may not have it yet, but there is somewhere. I promise you, even if it's somewhere that you have to contribute to making yourself, but there is somewhere where you can be you and you will be loved and welcomed just as you are. And you know, and it's it's a hard thing to believe. I mean, for a long time, I didn't believe it. When you've always felt a little bit on the outside, >> it is a hard thing to believe. But if there's one thing that I've learned and what I try to do in these books is to show [clears throat] that it is always possible.

[00:55:52]It's like it's back to what you said about the joy of reading that hope that that like good will come eventually, you know. Oh. Oh, I love it. I love it.

[00:56:03]And I hope so many more people continue to pick up your stories and experience these worlds. I love it so much. I have to ask one last thing before I get to the last question of the interview. And I don't know if you can tell me this or not, but you hinted a little bit about another adult novel. you are writing >> is it can you tell me is it interconnected in the witches universe or because you know how your the two books are they exist in the same universe right with the guild and everything is this one um it's so [laughter] it's it's really tricky because they're very tonally and you know sort of vibeswise they're all very similar books but they're all three very much. They can stand on their own. You don't have to read them in any particular order.

[00:56:54]>> But yes, this is another >> cozy romantic magical >> Okay, >> book. [laughter] >> Okay, I >> cozy romantic fantasy. Let's just go with that. There is a witch in it as well.

[00:57:09]>> But again, it is completely standalone.

[00:57:11]You don't have to have read any of the others, >> but you probably should. I I'll say that to everybody.

[00:57:17]>> I would love [laughter] you to read them. Yes.

[00:57:20]I'll be I'll be the pusher if you won't.

[00:57:22]I will get All right. So, the last question that I have for you has nothing to do with anything we were previously talking about. I call this section of the interview the chaos question because it's just we're I'm throwing a curveball. I did not tell you this question ahead of time for spontaneity and I just want to have a little bit of fun with it. I've had some good times with these. So, my question for you, I guess it is a little bit of a magical question. That would be the tiny connection. If the animals in our real 2026 world could talk in [clears throat] ways that people could understand, what everyday animal do you think would be the rudest?

[00:58:01][laughter] >> That is such a great question. Um, a crow.

[00:58:07]>> Okay, >> I am absolutely in 100% of the like crows are a vibe. they are what I would like to be um if I were not me [laughter] like I think the thing every I think you know by now there's so much crow law that everybody knows that they never forget a face they hold grudges like like nobody's business but they're also incredibly loyal if you've been kind to them and you know that just feels like yes I absolutely I will be loyal if you've been kind to me and I will hold one hell of a grudge and I think that because of the nature of who they are, a they fly, they see all sorts of things.

[00:58:48]They [snorts] clearly do not, you know, give Can I swear? Am I allowed to swear on this one [laughter] or should I just not?

[00:58:55]>> We We usually are pretty swear free here, but you know, they don't give too anything about anything. Yeah. So, I think they would be the rudest if they could communicate. They would be they would be gossip, which again a vibe. Um, [laughter] and they would be incredibly rude, but also delightful company. I I expect >> like it. I hadn't even considered a bird for this answer because I got stuck on cats and I was stuck on house cats.

[00:59:28]>> I do. I think a lot of people assume cats are incredibly rude and that's probably true, but I'm going to go with crow.

[00:59:36]>> I like the crow answer. I'm into that. I think that cats and crows would be different types of rude though. Like cats remind me of like playground bullies a little bit like you are all beneath me. Cats would be very like I simply do not have time for you or any of your crap. Whereas a crow would be like let me tell you what I just saw and what kind of unhinged behavior is going on in number 12. like, [laughter] >> oh, the gossiping would be good because we have >> they're not crows, but they're like crow adjacent. These like medium-sized blackbirds that live in our neighborhood and every morning they're in this one set of trees just you can tell they're just trading stories.

[01:00:22]>> Yes, they're just filling all the tea.

[01:00:24]Absolutely.

[01:00:26]>> Hands down.

[01:00:27]>> And so they should.

[01:00:28]>> I also wonder I sometimes think the squirrels in my yard are telling me off.

[01:00:32]Like when I chase them away from my plants, I feel like they then go to the tree and they're like chir like doing that squirrel thing where they chirp at me and I'm like, "You don't like me either." [laughter] I don't know.

[01:00:45]>> Yeah. I think I feel very judged by cats. I think it's that aloofness.

[01:00:50]>> Yes.

[01:00:50]>> Any experience I have with a cat makes me think that they are judging and finding me wanting. So, you know, I do see that. I can see the cat thing.

[01:00:59]>> I love the crows though. I love it so much. Oh my gosh. Well, Su, thank you so much for being here to chat with me today about your journey as an author, about all of the rabbit holes we went down and your fabulous cozy books. It was truly a delight.

[01:01:14]>> Honestly, thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. And yeah, this was this was a great time.

[01:01:20]>> Oh, thank you. And thank you. Thank you.

[01:01:22]Thank you to everybody out there for coming in to join us as well. Hopefully, you're off to find a great book to read or perhaps find a warm hug in one of the books we talked about today. A quick reminder to go ahead and check out the Fantasy Fan Club in the link in the description. And if you're interested in checking out other shows in the network, be sure to give Fantasy Fanfellas a try.

[01:01:41]It's a super fun podcast hosted by Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fang Girls, and Book Talk star Steven Walker.

[01:01:47]It's so fun and they have been deep diving Brandon Sanderson's Mistorn.

[01:01:50]Also, please give me a follow on Fantasy Fan Reads on social media or me, your host, The Lost Books of Jess, on Instagram. And please give Sangu a follow as well so you keep up with all of her new releases and special editions. It sounds like we have some amazing things coming our way. This is also a new podcast, so please rate and review. It helps us so much. And share us with your friends who love all things cozy. All right, goodbye everybody and we will see you again next time.