ODESSA with Gabrielle Sher

Ajouté : 2026-05-31

[00:00:03]Welcome to Quills and Chills. I'm your host, Rick Clifton, and I'm going to introduce you to the creators who give fear its voice. Together, we'll explore the strange, the unsettling, and the unforgettable. So, go ahead and dim those lights because that conversation starts now.

[00:00:34]Hello and welcome back to Quills and Chills. I'm your host Rick Clifton and today I am joined by author Gabrielle Sher. Gabrielle's work blends horror, folklore, and emotional realism into deeply compelling ways. Uh, and she's here today to talk to me about her latest novel, Odessa. My god, I love this book so much. So, welcome to the show, Gabrielle.

[00:00:57]>> Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:59]>> Um, first of all, let's start with probably the hardest question today.

[00:01:03]What is the book about?

[00:01:05]>> That is a hard question. I don't know why it's always so hard, but um, so Odessa is I call it feminine Jewish folklore, um, Gothic. Um, and it's about a Jewish family based on my own ancestors living in the Russian Empire in 1905. Um and they are experiencing prams which are violent attacks against Jews that were happening during the time. Um and the three members of the family are Yeda who is the teenage daughter, her mom Freda and her dad Morai. Um and she has a little brother Ephraim as well. Um, and it cycles between the three of their perspectives as they deal with the trauma and the violence and um, all of those things in different ways. Um, and when Yetteda is killed during one of the pagms, her father uses her his knowledge of Cabala, which is like ancient Jewish mysticism, to bring her back um, and puts her soul in the body of a golem, which is a character in Jewish folklore, which is a creature made of clay that's built to defend the Jewish people against attacks like these. Um, but it doesn't go exactly as he expected and there's, you know, other monsters kind of lurking in the woods. Um, yeah.

[00:02:26]>> No. Uh, it's fantastic. Uh, before we dive in, uh, I have a bunch of questions. Uh, you know, and stuff I want to talk about because I I'm big fan of the story, but um, I w I want do want to say this. I happen to be on a plane when I started reading this. And my usual go-to on a plane is the in-flight movie versus the book. I I I'm always I'm always like, you know what? I'm gonna read the book and then I'll get one or two chapters in I'm like, okay, I'm gonna switch to the movie. I couldn't put this book down. It just I read it the entire flight and it was just it was just so And so the person sitting next to me was like, "Oh, what is this the book about?" And I'm like, "I don't know if I want it to because it was uh I don't think at the time it was out." I was like, "I don't know if I want to tell you too much, but I was like, "It's folklore, horror." And uh they're like, "Oh, okay." And she got very interested in it. So, uh, I gave her the name. Hopefully, she bought the book. So, >> Oh, thanks.

[00:03:18]>> Fingers crossed. But anyway, it was really great. So, um, so first of all, let's talk a little bit about, uh, some of the characters. So, Yeta sort of begins the story, as you mentioned, living under this growing threat and fear that's surrounding her family and her her village and her community. And, yeah, she's desperate for a life beyond it. So I what I loved about this and I wondered if you could talk about it a little bit is what is it about her world that just makes escaping that feel so necessary for her?

[00:03:49]>> I think there's kind of layers of that for her in particular. I think for all the Jewish people in their community um that feeling of kind of being surrounded and in danger got made that feeling um kind of real for a lot of people but for her like she she's a teenager she's really thinking about herself like she's thinking less about like the political ramifications of things and more about like I feel stuck I feel trapped I'm feel like there are all these expectations on me as a young woman um in like the domestic space, in the Jewish space, like there are all these layers of this like cage that she feels like she's in um and I think all the characters are in cages of their own in different ways. Um but for her in particular, I think she feels this kind of need to run. Um and that's kind of one of the things I really love about her is that she's got this kind of like wild spirit. There there was definitely a lot of that I sort of related to a lot uh you know in terms of like that young uh teenage adolescence of I just need to get out of here and I'm ready to build my life and do all these like these big you know high in the sky dreams and stuff. So I definitely related to a lot of that yada for sure. Um you know one of the other things I really love most about this is that the horror aspect of it wasn't so much supernatural. It was more it sort of began with uh persecution and violence and grief and all of these things that are just painfully human.

[00:05:28]And I I would love to have you sort of talk a little bit about how those uh those realities uh and that painfulness and all of those things sort of ground this story before the folklore elements begin to enter into it.

[00:05:42]>> I think you know I chose this time and place because it is you know personal to my family. stories that my grandmother told me about our ancestors. Um, and when I did my research into the real life historical aspects, like there were true horrors, horrific real things, and I didn't feel like I needed to make up any actual like fake horror to supplement that. Um, so I think I als I wanted to let that kind of stand on its own a little bit and let you feel the kind of real horrific things that are there before the supernatural elements come in. Um, because I think the supernatural elements more like comment on what's happening instead of being the horrific thing in themselves.

[00:06:28]>> Yeah. No, I thought that was really well done and and uh it really it really kind of resonated with me in a in a way and that all of the horror is actually coming from uh from humans uh and and not the supernatural elements for the most part. So, uh and yeah, that was uh I loved it. I thought it was uh one of my favorite aspects of of the story that you told.

[00:06:52]>> Um this next question, well, it was going to be a little I was trying to stay spoilerfree. Um, but you did sort of mention it in uh in the opening, but um it's but follow my thought process here and then we can dive in if you want or whatever. I'm going to try and be a little vague. So, I'll do that as I try to avoid spoilers. So, hopefully you'll know what I'm talking about, but I just don't want to ruin it for everybody else. But, um so, uh as you've mentioned, Yeta's father resurrects her out of grief. But the version that we meet of Yeta, which is a golem, uh when she returns, she's not exactly the daughter that he lost. Um, and one of the things that you do in this story that I absolutely love is that as a result of that, our relationship to Yeta's POV, and again, I'm trying to be very vague here, so just try to bear with a minute, but our our relationship to her POV and how she's viewing things as the story evolves, it changes a little bit. I loved how you did that and I was kind of curious about uh those uh you know shifting that sort of understanding and those experiences with her. Was it like writing a new character or was it uh like the same character but evolving to a different place than she probably would have had things not transpired the way that they did? Um you know because I think it begins to sort of reshape the her interactions and history with her family a little bit. So, >> yeah. Um, that's a good question. I feel it's more she did feel like the same person, but like she changed in ways that she might not have if she had not gone through the trauma that she did.

[00:08:38]Um like I I think a lot of the change I like one of the things that um I researched for the book was um trauma and how trauma affects the mind and I studied something called narrative psychology which is basically the idea that you know the human mind works in a narrative structure. We understand ourselves and the world in a narrative structure. And when trauma comes into that, it fractures the idea of the self, the story of the self. And um traumatic memory can exist kind of outside of time and not be able to be integrated into the story of the self as easily. And it kind of is like this sharp fracture. And I was so fascinated by that idea. And so when I was writing Yeta like post trauma, which is like most of the book, um one of the things that she struggles with is memory. And so she like doesn't have a memory of what happened to her, but she knows that something is wrong.

[00:09:38]Like she feels different. Um one of the books I read was um the body keeps the score, the body remembers, things like that. Like her body is aware that there's something wrong, something different. Um and even if she doesn't remember, know what it is. Um, so her perspective is kind of still yet but trying to understand this really big scary dark feeling that she doesn't know what it is. Um, and that changes her outlook on life. It changes her relationships. Um, but she throughout writing it I I felt like she was the same person. There is a scene later where she kind of looks back on her younger self and is like, "How was I ever that person? Like I can't recognize myself now." Um, and I think that's like true of like somebody who has gone through trauma of like feeling like you've changed all or feeling like you're a different person. Um, or not recognizing yourself. Um, and yeah, I was just fascinated by all these ideas and all the characters kind of deal with trauma differently and her I got to go really deep into the way that she processes trauma.

[00:10:41]>> I I love that. I love that you were talking about this is one of my questions uh is that you know one of the most powerful threads I think in the book is uh you know what trauma does uh to the body and to the memory and and sense of oneself. Um, and you talked about this a little bit, but now you brought it up, I'd love to know a little bit about Yeta and her increasing uh feelings of just being unfamiliar to this new version of herself and how that transformation begins to shape how she now moves through the world. Um, because I think it and and I can I can take this out if it's a spoiler, you tell me. I think this is also a story of uh of autonomy uh at the end of the day and that's really sort of what I got out of this. Like she she's a badass. So I just really loved it.

[00:11:32]>> Um yeah, I it definitely is a story about autonomy. I think that's like the the main arc for her, I think, is her finding her autonomy and being able to make decisions for herself and for her body. Um, and I think that I I'm really fascinated by the idea of monsters and like monster theory and when her I think it was a really good vehicle for her to have this golem body.

[00:12:02]She doesn't know it's a golem, but that she seeing her own body as monstrous, as like something that's unfamiliar or um uncanny. Um, I really love writing things like scenes that are uncanny or things that feel like slightly wrong.

[00:12:19]Um, and I think that the way that she sees herself in as monstrous is part of her like much longer journey to finding autonomy.

[00:12:36]>> Yeah. I mean, I could see all of that late. I'm smiling ear to ear as you're saying this because I'm like, "Yes, I remember this scene." And I remember thinking kind of a lot of what you were just saying, too. It's just there's just it's I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but uh I'm gonna um it was just really well done. I just like I said, there were so many uh things that resonated with me and and things I got very excited about, I just couldn't put it down. So, um I think one of the things I do want to definitely talk about is the family dynamic a little too. Uh I think that this family dynamic and as you mentioned you you know all of the members in this family have their own sort of point of view and and um uh you know in this story and it seems incredibly complicated because I feel like for me anyway that everyone believed that they were protecting each other but by doing that they did that by keeping all of these big secrets from one another. Right. And so, uh, I love how you use that tension to create this strong emotional core for the story. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about those sort of buried truths, if you will, and how they begin to shape uh, or even reshape family as the story sort of unfolds for these guys.

[00:13:48]>> Yeah. Um, I had a lot of fun kind of playing with the idea of family as like a unit. like there it's kind of like an us against the world kind of feeling when you feel like the walls are closing in and like things are not safe outside of the walls of the home. Um but at the same time the you know everyone's individual paths start to diverge and when they start to keep these secrets um the I I love the idea of a secret that's kept because you know it's going to hurt the other person but it's in there in order to help the other person. Um this kind of like paradox of a secret. Um, and I think that pretty much every character has one and there's so much love behind these things that are painful to each other. Um, and I think that's what families do a lot of the time is like especially, you know, if you have a loving family, you're not trying to hurt each other, but you do.

[00:14:48]There there's no way around it. And I think that I I just think that dynamic is so like endlessly fascinating. And it's this like cycle of trying not to hurt each other and trying to help out, trying to help each other and thinking that you're right and that your way is right and that the other person's way is wrong. And um yeah, I just think that's very real of families. And um I really enjoyed that kind of roller coaster of going back and forth between everybody.

[00:15:21]And I wanted I wanted each person to feel a little bit like you kind of believe them. You're like, "Oh, you might be right or maybe this person is right." And every time you get to the next character, like I kind of started feeling like, "Oh, maybe she's right.

[00:15:34]Oh, maybe he's right."

[00:15:36]>> And then like by the end it's like everybody's right, nobody's right.

[00:15:39]There's no like they're in an impossible situation. And I think that's really the point is that it's impossible and so there can't be a right answer.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. No, I definitely uh definitely saw that. So, um but now you So, I don't I don't normally talk about uh craft so much because I don't want to take the mystery away from or the magic away from the story, but now you've got my brain going in a different direction here real quick. So, as you were talking about sort of everybody's got their own secrets and uh their own POVs. How do you craft that when you're writing that?

[00:16:12]How do you craft that? What's uh are you do you I I can only equate it to like I work in film a lot so I can equate it to timelines in a film like I've got this person's timeline here and this person's timeline and so on and uh how do you how are you crafting sort of these uh these different stories and perceptions with uh with like Morai for example was a very interesting uh background in history and like how how are you putting that together to end up on the page?

[00:16:41]I think that I had these ideas in the beginning of what each character wanted by the end and what their like their be what their starting point and their ending point.

[00:16:53]And it was mostly through revision to get the piece right, the timing of revealing things right. Um because it's so hard when you know everything, you know the answers and your reader doesn't. So really, I think craftwise it's just in revision and figuring out like when to reveal what and who knows what. Um, but I really wanted Yeah, it's so hard with spoilers.

[00:17:20]>> Sorry.

[00:17:21]>> But like to have different characters like the characters know something that the reader doesn't know about. Um, but to have hints along the way that there's like something going on and you find out a little bit more like as you keep reading.

[00:17:36]I think that's what I love most about the story is that there's a I love that.

[00:17:39]That's one of my favorite things in the story is when we as a reader or as a one character knows something that nobody else knows and you know it's coming and it's it's that sha that foreshadowing and that you know all of that. Um but there's so much of it in this. It's just it's perfectly layered in that I just I I loved it. So there's a lot of great it felt like um it felt very sort of thought through and uh planned out. So for sure. So well done. I will say that.

[00:18:14]>> So um I think you talked you touched on this a little bit uh earlier too. Um it's about the next question is really about one of the things I really loved in the story is about how sort of the line between monster and protector keeps moving or shifting throughout the story. Uh and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how that sort of relates to Yeta um and not only how she sort of sees herself uh and but more about how others are like in her family are responding to it as well. Okay, I'm trying to be a little spoilerfree. Sorry.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah. No, I can do it. Um there's Yeah, that's an interesting um point like this monster protector thing and I think it ties back into autonomy and also I I love exploring the gray area of things of questions and especially when you're when you're thinking about family and love and making decisions for someone maybe against their will, even if it's to help them or save them. And like where is the line of I'm doing this for you and I'm doing this without your permission and I know what's good for you more than you know what's good for you. And I think that that's kind of true of women of the time and like be like Yeta being a woman and Freda being a woman and yet being a a child. not really a child, but um um say um a young woman and even if it's decisions that are to help or that are supposed to be good, like Yeta is about to be married to someone she loves, but she's putting off the mar the wedding because she doesn't get to choose whether or not she gets married at all. and that's just like laid out for her in her life. Even if it's to somebody that she loves and she's lucky that it's somebody she loves. Um she doesn't have that autonomy. She doesn't have that choice. And so even if it's these loving decisions, she doesn't want them to be made for her. And I think that that's an interesting distinction to me that it's like even if this is for your own good, I still want to be in charge of myself.

[00:20:38]>> I love it. It's great. Uh this next question is more for you. um uh just kind of a I guess a bigger sort of theme question if you will. But uh you know obviously the deeper that we get into the story, the more the characters tend to blur that line between love and grief and desperation and all the things that are sort of driving them. At what point do you think uh trying to hold on to someone becomes its own kind of horror in a way? Um, I think that Yeah.

[00:21:12]>> How do you know when to let go?

[00:21:14]>> A good question. Um, >> maybe that's a question that can't be answered. I don't know.

[00:21:19]>> I don't know. Maybe I don't know is the answer. But I think there's again maybe a difference of like selfless love and possessive love.

[00:21:30]>> Oh, great. There's point >> like >> I think that the love like the love of the different parents in the story starts to diverge in that way and you like they show different types of love to their daughter and um of a yeah of a love of like I have you or I want you or a love of I can't let you go. Like there is a love in letting somebody go. Um, but again it's I think it all comes back around to autonomy and like listening to a person and like literally just paying attention to what they want and respecting what they want even if it's painful to you. Um, and I I think I think there's also a danger of like self-sacrificing love. Um, and like that's maybe another extreme that's not quite in the healthy zone. But um yeah, I I really enjoyed exploring lots of different unhealthy types of love. Um I think that's usually a little more interesting to read about. Personally, I like the toxic stuff, but um there's but I also wanted >> you and I are going to get along great.

[00:22:45]>> But I my mom always is like, "Can you write a happy story about, you know, people who love each other and like everything's great?" And I'm like, "But that's boring."

[00:22:53]>> Yeah. Pages. Come on.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah, exactly. Um, but I also wanted to have a story that had hope in it and that had an example of the right kind of love that this person needs.

[00:23:07]>> Yeah, it's really great. Uh, so this story, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the tradition surrounding uh golems and uh, you know, how like bringing that in and making it feel emotionally grounded and lived in because I feel like you did that very very well. uh you know and as you uh I wonder if you could talk about like how much did you immerse yourself in learning about these traditions? It's probably a little more of a research question too. And what aspects of them stayed with you most deeply while you after you were done writing?

[00:23:38]>> Um yeah, I had a lot of fun doing folklore research. I knew the like vague stories just from growing up. But um the golem is typically this kind of lumbering soulless kind of stupid big oaf of a creature made of clay and um usually created by a rabbi using like Hebrew letters and like numbers and all different kinds of rituals. There's many there's multiple different versions where golems are made in different ways and I kind of chose a couple um that I liked and um but normally they kind of obey their they have to obey their creator. Um, but the story, even though the stories are typically set in like some kind of pag type situation where Jews are in danger and need a protector, um, there's a kind of like funny element. There's usually like humor in it where the golem responds to orders too literally. And it's kind of like I call it like Amelia Vidilia style. they'll like whatever you're you have to be so careful with what words you tell a golem to do because they will do a ridiculous thing um like to an extreme and so I did not go the humor route obviously I went the horror route but um I like golems don't typically have a soul they're not they don't typically look super human they kind of have this like gravestone shape to them um which I loved the on the cover they kind of made her head look like the original golem shape. Um, but and they're usually male. So, I definitely changed a lot of things.

[00:25:29]because I took liberties, but I it was important to me that she was a woman and like to tell this story of a female golem because it was like so perfect for the story that I wanted to tell where she feels like she has no choice but to obey her father's rules, obey like society's rules, and like even without this magical element of being forced to obey her creator, she would have to kind of do that anyway. Um, so it ended up being like really a perfect vehicle to discuss the topics that I wanted to. Um, but I really loved there's more research that I did into other folklore that might be a bit of a spoiler, but um, I just love there's so much scary stuff, really good stuff in Jewish folklore that I'm still researching and always finding new things that I think are amazing. Um, so I just feel like it's a gold mine and like I love stealing from it. I'm trying to remember other folklore things in there.

[00:26:35]>> Well, I will say this. Um, and again, I'm be careful about spoiler here, but it goes back to that uh that that theme of autonomy. Um, and it's her like going back to what you were saying about her creator. Um, there's that moment where uh her uh where Yeta and her creator have a where she finds her own autonomy.

[00:27:00]I'm gonna leave it. I'm being vague.

[00:27:01]Sorry.

[00:27:03]>> You know what I'm talking about. And for me, when I read that, I was like, "Yes, I just I loved it because I don't think I realized it until he realized it." And then I was like, "Oh, wow."

[00:27:18]It was really great. Really, really fantastic. I don't know if you know who I'm talking about.

[00:27:22]>> I I had Yeah, I do. Uh I had so much fun with that element of it. Like when there's a kind of magical like supernatural rule. Um I had to be really careful with what the words that he said to her and because if he said gave an order, she would have to do it. And um there was a there's like a scene where he's like, "Stop asking me questions."

[00:27:46]And so for like the rest of the book, I couldn't or like the rest of whatever time, I couldn't have her ask him any questions. Um, so I had to phrase everything in a statement, even if she wanted to find something out. Um, so it was kind of fun being in a prison of my own making and figuring my way around those rules.

[00:28:06]>> I love that. Um, all right. So this is my favorite question. Uh, I asked this of everybody, um, but it's like without giving too much away. Is there a moment or a sequence in the book that you're most excited for readers had to have experienced? Before you answer that, I'm going to I want to tell you mine, but I've already told you most of mine in most interviews. So, I'm actually what I'm going to do this time is I'm going to pull out a quote uh because I loved it. And uh when I read it, I had to stop and I read it. I reread it like 10 times because it's just such a it's such a fun sentence. It's just really really really great. And I think that as I thought about it long and hard, I'm like, well, this really does kind of sum it up, uh, you know, in a big way, and it comes towards the end, but I don't think it's a spoiler, but like I said, if it is, I'll bleep it out. You tell me.

[00:28:53]>> Um, all right. So, it's a sentence that you wrote that despite the constant pain, Yeta was having a grand time being dead. And I love that sentence so damn much.

[00:29:05]>> Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, that's not that doesn't have a spoiler. Yeah, it was just it was just really it just was it stuck with me. Like I said, it just jumped out at me and I was like, "Okay, I have to write this down. I have to like we have to we have to talk about this. I have to bring it up." So, >> but for you, what is there a favorite moment or sequence or something that you're excited for readers to sort of get to experience?

[00:29:30]>> I there I think my favorite moments to write were the kind of gothic scarier moments. Um, uh, there's a scene where Yeta is looking out the window and screaming, and I really like that one. Um, >> I love that one, too. That was one of my I had a list and I was like, that was one of them as well.

[00:29:51]>> Yeah, that was fun to write. And then, oh, anytime yet in the woods, I I love the woods are kind of like my comfort place when I was writing. Like, I just loved sending her there. Um, and having these scenes in this, I felt like I could really like smell it and feel it when I was there. Um, so any of those, but also there's a scene where Morai is at the graveyard and I really like that one, too.

[00:30:19]>> Yes, I think I know the one you're talking about. So, is that earlier?

[00:30:24]>> Yeah.

[00:30:25]>> Yeah. But I also I love the quote you chose. I feel like, you know, part of why I wanted Yeta to literally die at the beginning and come back to life is because I I was really wanted to portray her experience of trauma as like a living death of like feeling like she's dead but being in pain, which is the opposite of being dead. Um, and then all of like her existence in so many ways is just this paradox. She's a walking paradox. Um, so yeah, I'm really that's I'm glad you chose that quote. I think it does have it up.

[00:31:01]>> Yeah, like I said, I read it 10 times. I was like, "Nope, we have to talk about it. I love it." So, well, Gabrielle, thank you so much for your time today.

[00:31:09]The book is called Odessa. This is the cover uh that uh that we were just talking about. So, go check it out. That book is available everywhere now. And like we always say here at Quills and Chills, please go support your local bookstores whenever and wherever possible. So, uh, Gabrielle, how can our audiences find you online and on social?

[00:31:31]>> Um, you can find me on my Instagram, which is, I believe, Gabrielle_shure.

[00:31:38]Um, and I post about my, um, events, book events. I have a website, gabrielshure.com. I also post my events there. So come and see me. I love to talk about horror. Um yeah, thank you so much and thank you for having me.

[00:31:54]>> You got it. So I will put that uh I will have that on screen for the video version. I will have it also in the show notes for the audio version and u when this is ready I will also tag you in the socials so everybody will know how to find you. Good.

[00:32:08]>> Perfect.

[00:32:09]>> All right you guys, that's it for Quills and Chills. We'll see you next time. Bye guys.