Ask Me Anything on the Black Dahlia Case, June 2026

Added: 2026-06-10

[00:00:05]And we are live. Hi everybody. I'm Larry Harish. This is Boxy and this is the Ask Me Anything on the Black Dalia case for June 2026.

[00:00:21]Lots to talk about, lots of interesting things going on in the world of the Black Dalia for an almost 80year-old case. things are things are great. Um, number one, uh, I put the link in the description. David Orjack this morning dropped uh, part three of his video on uh, the allegations on killer in the code and Mr. Alex Babber. I'll talk about that more in a minute, but you will definitely want to go watch that.

[00:00:51]So, okay. Um, first of all, who is this Larry Harish guy anyway, and why is he talking about the Black Dalia case? Okay, I'm Larry Harish, 34 years in daily journalism, 27 of them at the Los Angeles Times. Uh, I was mostly a copy editor, but I specialized in Los Angeles history. And um, I I was a columnist briefly here and there about Los Angeles history. I wrote feature stories about Los Angeles history and I did a blog for a couple of years, the Daily Mirror that was all about Los Angeles history and that's how I got involved with the Black Dalia case was back in 1996. Uh I thought it would be a good story for the LA Times to do. I didn't uh expect to do it myself, but uh the city the assistant city editor at the time said, "Hey, uh do you want to write about the black doll?" you know, I I suggested it as a story. He said, "Great idea. Do you want to do it?" So, I did. Uh, and that that and that is very briefly how I got involved with the Black Dalia case. Um, since then, uh, it has been a long journey. That was in 1996. Uh, I have been working on a book. I've been spent a long time on it for the simple reason that I had a full-time job. I had a family. Um, I was doing blogging and and really um, holding down a full-time job.

[00:02:18]and for a while a family um you know there's only so much time for bookw writing and it's a complicated story. I had to throw out uh some early drafts and just um start over again and it's a I am at the point now where I'm closing in on 190,000 words which is a lot. Uh but you don't get that uh playing uh computer solitire. And uh as you can see uh there's a lot of there's a lot of characters, a huge cast of characters, lots of things to remember. Um and then for the last couple of months, I've spent a lot of time pushing back on uh Michael Connley's Killer in the Codes uh Killer in the Code. Um, and so that's timeconuming and again pushing back on Steve Hodell. Um, which you know Steve Hodell is still saying that he grew up in the Sen house. No, he didn't. His parents were divorced. Every time he says yes, the Sen house was our family home. No, it wasn't. His parents were divorced. He didn't live there. He lived with his mom and his brothers. But he keeps saying that anyway. Okay, so that's who I am. That's how I got involved in the Black Dollia case. Um, I consider myself a historian of the Black Dalia case uh because God knows there needs to be one. There is no there is certainly at this point no institutional memory at the LAPD uh on the Black Dolly case. It was too long ago. Um so really um I am I try to be uh a historian uh and say well we know this, we know that, we don't know this, we don't know that.

[00:04:02]Um, people will tend to dismiss me. Oh, Larry Harish has developed a a suspect and, you know, won't listen to anything else. And it's that's why I always keep that individual in the background. Um, because I, you know, I never push I never push that individual. I never push that suspect. I consider myself, as I said, first and foremost, a historian of the Black Dalia case because there needs to be one. It's an extremely complicated case. There's a lot of details uh to keep in mind. Okay.

[00:04:35]Now, the the the big news is that David Orchack has dropped part three of the uh his rebuttal to Killer in the Code. The link is in the description. Go watch it.

[00:04:47]It's long. It's um it's an hour and um I think it's an hour and 20 minutes, something like that. Uh but it needs to be. David originally did one long video uh as a response to Killer in the Code.

[00:05:01]Who's David Orjack? He's a guy who actually cracked one of the Zodiac Ciphers. He's a very bright guy. Um and so he he did a response to uh the Killer in the Code uh podcast. It's a 10-part podcast. Uh it's on YouTube. It's at killerinthecode.com.

[00:05:21]And so, um, he did he did a response to that. Part one was all about the finagling that self-taught codereaker Alex Bab did um to get the to derive the name Marvin Merrill who's in he's not really anyway.

[00:05:40]Uh, part two is a little bit more of that. And part three is who is Alex Babber that just dropped.

[00:05:49]I have I I previewed it um and uh it is it is a model and and I want to say this absolutely positively. Part three of David Orchack's video um what do he call decoding the detective uh is absolutely a model of what debunking junk science and bogus claims should be. It is exactly what it should be. Uh it it took months. It took months to put it together because David's a very thorough individual. And when you see the video, you'll be impressed with how polished and professional it is. It's quite well done. Um for someone who is I don't think David's a professional videographer, but boy, he could be. It's really it's really really really well done. But the content is also quite extraordinary in terms of u double and triplechecking everything on this fellow Mr. Alex Babber who has come up with all these claims. What a character uh Alex Babber and you know I I helped because research is my passion. Uh so I helped with some of the research on that. Um but David David put it all together. Uh David didn't rely on I mean I would say hey I found this and he would go verify it. Um he was incredibly thorough, incredibly meticulous and he brings the receipts on everything. And quite simply, you know, the thing about Mr. Alex Baber is that it's like Pokemon. Just when you think you have found every shenanigan that he's ever pulled, you find something else. And it's like, oh, there's also this. You know, it it really it really is amazing.

[00:07:44]Uh, and I have to bring it back to team Connley, Michael Connley, his two, uh, homicide detective, retired homicide detectives who are consultants, uh, Mity Roberts and Rick Jackson. How did they not spot this guy? Uh he is such a blatant fraud uh and scam artist and and then um the code guy Ed Gjo and I have I have pretty good reason to believe that Ed Giorgio is still on board with Alex Bab's method of of cracking if you're really into Zodiac stuff cracking the message known as Z13. Okay. Um, Ed Giorgio, the code guy, is is still on board with that, but I don't know. Uh, and you have to ask, how did they not know? Specifically, uh, Rick Jackson and Metsy Roberts, they're retired homicide detectives. They're supposed to be good at evaluating people. How did they get taken by this guy? Because, um, it is it is just absolutely amazing. Anyway, um, I highly recommend the video. As I said, it's very thorough. It's very meticulous. It is long. You might want to break it up, but he brings he brings the receipts. He brings the documentation. And you will not believe what's in there, what the claims that Mr. Alex Bo has has made um in the in the realm of true crime. Okay, watch it.

[00:09:15]The link is in the description. Um, and I have to say the total the total views for David's three uh three videos, they've already surpassed the page views of Killer in the Code. He's already he's already uh beaten uh the page views of Killer in the Code. If that that sort of thing matters to you. Okay, moving on.

[00:09:36]You might have seen an announcement about an investigative team is doing a documentary. You might have seen that they are called Tailtorm. Okay. And you might wonder, hey, Larry, do you know about these guys? Oh, yeah. I certainly do. They used to call themselves Aspen Entertainment back they contacted me back in 2022.

[00:10:01]And uh they were I've worked with a lot of I I've worked with a lot of uh production companies uh doing true crime videos. Uh I don't do I I don't do them anymore. and outfits like this one is one reason I don't give interviews anymore. Um, they came in and they were obviously a very uh novice organization.

[00:10:24]They didn't seem to know what the heck they were doing. Um, but they were very demanding. I want all your stuff. I want everything. And it's like, will you will you give me all your stuff? It's like, no, I won't. Uh, they went to the district attorney's office. We want all of your stuff, even uh what's redacted.

[00:10:43]The the um long story short, the district attorney has released some stuff under the Freedom of Information Act. Um but it's redacted. Names are taken out, addresses are taken out, that kind of but there's a lot of things that are also aren't in there. Uh they only included the typed material uh that is related to the Black Dalia case. There are handwritten memos and stuff like that. Um, there's some material on the Crown Jewel cocktail lounge. Uh, that wasn't released either. Um, so they went in, they, you know, they went in like a bunch of cowboys and demanded, "Well, we want all of that." Uh, they went to the LAPD. We want all the files. Um, they and I told him no. Um, and I call the last conversation I had with Brian Carr, who had been um, the custodian of the Black Dalia case. The last conversation I had with him was, "Hey, have you heard of have you heard from Aspen Entertainment? What's with these guys?"

[00:11:43]And I said, "Yeah, they seem really flaky." And here's why. Um, they kind of sounded like Cold Case Consultants of America. It was a team of investigators that, uh, they had put together, but I went through the I went, you know, being me, I had to research the team of of who they had. And the first person on the team, um, I hunted them down. I think I contacted them on LinkedIn. They never heard of these this outfit. And it's like, "Oh, well that doesn't look good." And, um, I think none of these people had a background in homicide investigation. There was a, you know, document, forensic document examiner.

[00:12:24]Well, that's useless in the Black Dalia case. There was somebody from the US Marshall Service who, you know, tracked fugitives. Well, that doesn't have any application to homicide investigations either. Um, so I I went through all of I went through and I contacted everybody on the on the team on this guy's team and one of the individuals said, you know, don't worry about it. Just take the money and don't worry about it. Well, if there is anything that doesn't describe me as take the money and don't worry about it. I am not that person.

[00:13:01]that's that is not at all who I am. I don't I don't take the not the money and not worry about it. And so, um, the guy came in town, he said, "We're here for filming." I said, "I ain't talking to you." Uh, and that was the end of it. And I thought, "Well, this is just another, uh, half-baked Black Dalia project that fell apart because there are a lot of them." Um, but no, uh, they reemerged. They are no longer Aspen Entertainment. They are Tailstorm. And I looked at oh that's the guy and that I recognize some of the team members whom I contacted and it's like I don't really expect anything to come of it. Maybe I I think they're trying to just jump on the coattails of the uh Killer in the Code and the William Man book maybe. Um but the only thing that was they the guy did track down some of Elizabeth Short's uh family members. He did do that. Uh, I'm not sure what they told him. They don't like to talk about it. Um, so I don't know. But anyway, that's that is the short that is the the short answer on who is Tailstorm um Entertainment or whatever they are.

[00:14:14]And before we get going on the questions, I want to I want to talk about one one thing because people keep mentioning it to me and that is my Van Doran. Hey, Mimi Van Doran is in her 90s. Who's my Van Doran?

[00:14:29]My Van Doran had a a brief career um in the 50s. Uh she was, if you know, if you don't know who my Van Doran is, look her up. She was a blonde bombshell from the 50s. Uh sort of the uh second tier to be polite. And she's still alive. She wrote a book um where she talks about allegedly her friendship with Elizabeth Short. And people keep asking me, "Hey, my van Doran says it's like no." Um, and just an example of this, uh, my van Doran and and you have to be very careful of the the the Hollywood memoir, especially from, um, a movie person who is kind of long in the tooth and might not be real sure what they remember anymore. Um, but just an example, maybe Van Dorne says she worked at the Hollywood Pantageous when she was 13 years old as an usherette. No, she didn't. No. How do I know that? How can I be so sure? Because you go through the want ads from the newspapers at the time and their minimum age to be an usherette was 18. So that didn't happen. But you know, the Hollywood memoirs are just this um it's a genre that you need to be very very careful of. And I will leave it at that. Okay. Um let's go to the live questions. And I will I will tell you now, I've got lots and lots of questions. I've got a huge backlog of questions. I will not get to them all. I guarantee it. But I will do my best. So, okay, let me scroll back.

[00:16:08]Let's see. Let's see. Let's see what we got here.

[00:16:12]Um, are there any living relatives of Elizabeth Short? Yeah. Um, nieces and nephews. I mean, her sisters are all gone at this point, but but nieces and nephews um are still around. I will point out for the benefit of Mr. Alex Babber that none of their relatives are named have the last name Short. Uh he at one point said, "Oh yeah, I talked to Elizabeth Short's cousin who was named Short." No, there none of absolutely none of Short's relatives are named Short. None of them. Why not? Because there were five girls. Okay. And so the kids all took the dad's name. There are She has no living She has no relatives with the last name of short. None. No.

[00:16:59]Uh Okay. Did I watch I am the night?

[00:17:02]Yeah. It's fantasy. Okay. Let's go over here to one of the Oh, here's a qu here's something else I wanted to talk about because Mr. Alex, somebody asked about, "Hey, Alex Babber says blah blah blah blah blah."

[00:17:18]Okay, there when um Oh, you know what, Eugene, let me That's great. No, I have not. I almost forgot about that. I heard back in March. Uh it was March 4th, as a matter of fact. Uh Michael Connley was thinking about having me on his show. Um the last I heard from him was March 4th. He said, "I'll think about it and get back to you in a day." Well, we're in June. I haven't heard from him. I I kind of think maybe I'm not going to uh but no, I haven't heard. Thanks. Thanks for asking, Eugene.

[00:17:52]That was so long. I kind of forgot about it. And after after uh David Orshack's video, I'm not sure Michael will want to pursue it. When you go to killerinthecode.com, u it says chapter 11, the ironically titled chapter 11 coming soon. Well, maybe not. I can't imagine what Killer in the Code would do uh for a second season. More of the same. Uh they don't seem to be really disposed to having any skeptics on board. Um so I think they pretty much I think they pretty much exhausted what they've got. Anyway, uh somebody asked and he said, "Hey, Alex Babber is talking about a canvas bag that was found uh during the investigation. What's the story with that?" Here's where this canvas bag and the canvas bag is in the world of Alex Bab. The link to the Zodiac Motel where Elizabeth Short was supposedly murdered, but not really. Just just in the world of Alex Babber and getting some television time where he dragged a TV he dragged a TV crew down to this little crapo motel uh from the 40s. Uh here's the deal. After Elizabeth Short was killed, people found all kinds of stuff that they thought might be clues.

[00:19:11]Discarded clothing, um, rusty knives, um, all, you know, just random really random stuff. Uh, and one of the things and a certain wristwatch that Steve Hodell made great, uh, he tried to make that into a clue that was bogus also.

[00:19:32]Anyway, there was a ca an old weathered canvas bag that was found um and the story appears with a photograph uh January 22nd, 1947. If you want to look up the picture of what it looked like, uh it was a weathered old canvas canvas bag uh found at 9th Avenue and the Pacific Electric Rideway, which was the street car line that is now the train tracks um along Exposition. So, it's kind of close. But the idea being that oh well uh in addition to the heavy paper sacks that were found at the crime scene uh in proximity to Elizabeth Schwar's body on South Norton Avenue. Uh there was also this canvas bag. Well, if you read the newspaper coverage at the time, you will see that Ray Pinker of the Crime Lab took said canvas bag, which was old and weathered, and examined it. They didn't find blood on it. Only in the world of Alex Bab did they find blood on that. Really? No. No.

[00:20:39]Uh more more from T more from Alex Bab. Anyway, um but let's let's unpack that a little bit. Uh he says, "Well, it's what was used to deliver ice." And what are we talking about with delivering ice? Okay.

[00:20:57]Many, many years ago, children, not everybody had a refrigerator. They had what was called an ice box. And an ice box had ice in it. And um people would use that to to keep uh keep keep things cool. uh you'd get you'd order a block of ice. Okay, we're talking 1947 now.

[00:21:19]And the Zodiac Motel uh believe it opened in 1946 and the ads at the time say nice kitchens. Um and so nice kitchen, you know, the ice box was Pay at that point. It was old-fashioned.

[00:21:34]Uh ice deliveries were going out. people had refrigerators. And so it seems very likely certainly certainly in some of the old uh more recent newspaper ads for the Zodiac Motel, they had refrigerators. They did not have the old-fashioned ice box. So the idea that the motel was getting ice delivered is pretty ridiculous at this point. And I should point out as Mr. Uh David Orchack has already pointed out the Zodiac Motel did not have bathtubs. They had showers. Uh some of the ads say tiled showers and it is widely believed that Elizabeth Short was, as everybody knows, cut in half most likely in a bathtub. Uh there are some other ways that it could be done, but some sort of large basin that would accommodate a human body. And so, um, no, the the Zodiac Motel did not have bathtubs as much as Team Connley and Mr. Baber would like like them to have bathtubs. No. No. And they will go so far as to say, look at the classified ads and say, "Oh, well, see, it says bath. That means bathtub." No, it means bathroom. Uh, you look at the ads, kitchen, kitchenet, dinette, bedroom, uh, bath. That meant bathroom, not not bathtub. So anyway, um but that that is the story on the canvas bag. It really had nothing it really had nothing to do um with the murder of Elizabeth Short.

[00:23:09]It is just more wishful thinking by um a true crime con man. Okay. Uh let's see.

[00:23:18]Let me go back over here to the live questions.

[00:23:21]Let's see. Do you agree that the FBI files are useless in this G? Not totally useless.

[00:23:27]Uh, but you have to you have to know what to look for. As a matter of fact, when I do the Black Dalia book club, which will be June 16th, I'm going to talk about the FBI files. Um, and I will I will just mention the the Black Dalia book club. I started that because I got sick of t of talking about Steve Odell.

[00:23:48]He says the same thing every time. Uh, he's a onetrick pony. He repeats himself constantly. And no matter how many times you call him out, he still says the same thing. He is still saying that the Sen house was the family home. No, it wasn't. No, his dad lived there. Uh, and Steve and his brothers lived there later on when his mom was really up against it and had no place to stay. But no, his parents were divorced. He lived with his mom and his brothers. Uh, but Steve will keep telling you that we lived at the Sen house. No. No. Uh anyway, I got I got tired of talking about Steve Hodell.

[00:24:24]So I said, "Well, let me do the Black Dollalia book club." So in case you're interested in that, the Black Dollia book club is the third Tuesday of the month, and I talk about what's been written on the Black Dalia case. The first one was a Pulp Magazine story from the 1940s, 1948. Then I did the memoirs of journalists who had covered the Black Dalia case. I did a combination of a newspaper story and a radio show. Uh I did some early crime anthologies and last month uh I finally worked my way up to Jack Webb and the badge. Uh Jack Webb played a critical role in shaping uh the narrative of the Black Dollalia case. So that's what the Black Dollalia book club is. I'm slowly looking at all the resources on the Black Dalia case. Um the bottom line being that none of this stuff is totally reliable. You can't take anything as gospel. And so the next one will be uh the FBI files. Uh well, it sounds great.

[00:25:23]Oh, the FBI files must be great. Um they're somewhat useful in that you can see um how they identified Elizabeth Short and how they played the newspapers off against each other, that sort of thing. Um there's some interviews uh in there that will really get you on the wrong track. Uh there's an interview in there with a guy named Peter Veter. uh who claimed to have had a one night stand with Elizabeth York. He did not.

[00:25:50]He did not. Uh but he was he was uh a a um he was a prolific liar and so he claimed that he had a one night stand.

[00:26:00]Anyway, um there is an interview with him uh in there and some stuff like that. So it isn't you you have to already know the Black Dolly case before you go into the FBI files and there are some newspaper clippings uh if you're looking for that. Although these days uh the newspaper archives are all online except for the Los Angeles Examiner uh for January 1947 that is that is MIA but all the other newspaper articles are online uh on these online either newspapers.com or genealogy bank one or the other. So you can look that stuff up and read it for yourself. Um okay let's see. Okay. Now, last I keep starting at the beginning of the alphabet and I never get to the end. So, I'm going to start at the end of the alphabet and work my way forward here.

[00:26:52]Okay.

[00:26:53]Do you believe Armand Robas encountered the killer of Elizabeth Short? Will your book cover the wider suspected werewolf killer series of murders? Okay.

[00:27:04]Did What am I talking about with Arman Robas? Uh, where are you? Where are you?

[00:27:10]Ah, here you are.

[00:27:15]All of that comes from Black Valley Avenger.

[00:27:20]What happened was after Elizabeth Short was killed, uh, very briefly, the killer, and we know it was from the killer, uh, took some items from her purse and he put it in a little monarch envelope, this size envelope, okay, not very big, and he mailed them to the Examiner and other Los Angeles newspapers. Uh it included uh some snapshots, birth certificate, um business cards, random little pieces of paper snapshots, that kind of thing.

[00:27:52]Anyway, after that, a lot of people started sending in prank mail. And there were these letters signed Black Dolly Avenger, which of course Steveodell loved. Uh but there's a picture of a young man later named uh identified as Armand Robas. Okay. And there's all this stuff about how his wallet was stolen by a quote unquote footpad. It's just a thief. Really just an it's an archaic expression for a thief. And um you know it's no I I it was a total prank. it. In my opinion and in the opinion of the original investigators, the only legitimate correspondence, the only legitimate mailing in the Black Dalia case is the envelope that contained her belongings. That's it. All the rest were pranks and crackpots. I think there were a couple of people who who sent in anonymous tips meaning well but I think in general they were they were pranking the cops. So no I don't think Arman Robas encountered anybody. I think it was just it was a prank. Uh will I will the book cover the wider suspected were werewolf killer series of murders? No. Not not unless they're pertinent. Uh because it's easy to get into all these other uh random murders. Uh I do talk about some that are significant but from from the point of view of the police and and and it really I'm looking at for example just to get into the weeds uh the lead detective Harry Hansen looked at some of his other homicide cases. Um, one of them that was particularly trigger warning here, um, particularly notable occurred a couple years earlier. It was a guy named Otto Steven Wilson and he was picking up uh, prostitutes in main street bars. He would lure them up to a flop house hotel room and then kill them and and try to cut them up. And he, not knowing how to cut up a body, he did a horrible job of it. He it was uh when you see the crime scene photos, they are astounding. Uh so I talk about that that that sort of thing, but in in terms of the whole litany of all these other unsolved murders, um nah. Now they're a distraction. They are really a distraction. And the reason is people don't like it when I say this, but the murder of Elizabeth Short was one of a kind.

[00:30:36]Yes, the guy never killed before. He never killed again. And I am quoting Harry Hansen on that. Uh they knew about serial killings at the time. They did it it, you know, it's not a new phenomenon.

[00:30:49]Um, but when you look at the totality of what was done to Elizabeth Short, not just trigger warning, not just the mutilations, not just the cutting in half, but the the blows to the head, um, the the mutilations, um, that kind of thing. It's a very particular kind of killer, and you just don't see that kind of behavior anywhere else. There just isn't any. I know. I've looked because and I say this because I started out in the same place. Oh, it was a serial killing and the cops just didn't recognize it at the time. No, no, there's nothing like it. And you know, all the people who want to play uh the Black Dalia edition of Clue. Yeah. One of a kind. Okay. Uh let's see.

[00:31:42]Are any is any relatives of the shorts alive? Yeah, but they're not named short. Uh, did you watch I'm the night?

[00:31:48]Yes. What is the crown jewel cocktail lounge? I must have missed that part.

[00:31:54]Well, maybe you did. Okay, there. If if you if you go to the if you partake in Los Angeles's death tourism industry and as you can imagine with Hollywood and whatnot, um there is a thriving death tourism industry here in Los Angeles. uh they re revisit various crime scenes and I I have some experience with that. I was involved with a group uh that was originally called the crime bus. Now it's esoteric and they are maybe the premier death tourism industry uh in Los Angeles. There are graveline tours. There's there's others. Um you you know you get in a limousine and you drive around and you visit crime scenes and all that kind of stuff. Um, okay.

[00:32:44]They pushed the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge, which was south of the Builtmore. Okay. What's the Builtmore?

[00:32:52]The Builtmore Hotel was where Red Manley left Elizabeth Short on the night of January 9th, 1947. In reality, she left the lobby maybe 10, 10:30 at night. And we don't know where she went. Nobody knows. Nobody w nobody can really truthfully honestly say that they know where Elizabeth Short was from the time she left the Builtmore until the time her body was found on January 15th. They don't know. That's hard to admit. And so one of the answers has been the co the Crown Jewel cocktail lounge which was a few blocks south of the Builtmore. And the reason that uh comes into the conversation at all is because of one of Elizabeth Short's roommates, a woman named Anne Toth, who was really an aspiring actress and sort of, you know, uh entry level starlet, that kind of thing. Very pretty lady. Um did some stand-in work, that kind of thing. Um but she had a boyfriend uh who was in the milliner uh business. Uh he made hats. Uh, as a matter of fact, and when you see references to Elizabeth Short having a Leo Joseph hat, okay, uh, he was the Leo in the Leo Joseph hat company. Anyway, uh, his office was near the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge. And so Leo and Ant used to meet there and so Ant talked about the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge and um, Elizabeth Short might have absorbed that. The thing to remember about Elizabeth Short was that she absorbed other people's stories and would repeat them as if they happened to her. Um, and and that's one of my main complaints with uh Killer in the Code is they have done absolutely nothing uh to look at the victimology to really look at the kind of uh individual that Elizabeth Short was. But you're really you have to know you really have to know who your victim was. You have to as much as you can understand uh their motivation and their beh if you if not their motivation at least their external behavior.

[00:35:04]Case in point, Elizabeth Short frequently said she had a jealous boyfriend. She didn't but she would say that she did. It was one of her ways to keep as a single woman to keep women at uh to keep men at bay. Uh there's the story about Elizabeth Short's encounter with the police woman. Well, that wasn't Elizabeth Short. Uh, and team Connley will go go to the mat on, oh, it was Elizabeth Short. I mean, it was Elizabeth Short, and the police woman identified her. No, it's in the it's in the news accounts that the police woman once she saw because the identification was based on a verbal description. Once she saw um once she saw a photograph, the the iconic mug shot of Elizabeth Short, then um then uh then she said, "No, it's not." backed it off. So anyway, there were that's that's kind of how the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge got dragged into it at all. Uh but she was never there. There is no reason to believe that. Anyway, Elizabeth Short would repeat stories uh that she that that as if they had happened to her. And so Ann to stories about the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge, Elizabeth Short might have repeated them, but she was never there. I mean, you have to understand Elizabeth Short was the kind of person who would get dressed, say she was going to work, come home in the evening, and talk about her day. Not true. Totally fictional. Totally fictional. She didn't have a job, but she would act as if she did. I mean, she's something. She's tricky. She She's a challenge. Anyway, that's how the Crown Jewel Cocktail Lounge uh gets dragged into it at all. Okay. Um, let's see.

[00:36:48]Could I address the nature of the relationship between Best Short and Gordon Fickling? Were they lovers? Why did they separate? Did they break up? Or was he called to active duty away from LA? I understand they kept in touch and he sent her $100, a considerable sum back then, late in 1946. Did he think they still were in a relationship or was he just being generous to an ex in need?

[00:37:09]No one ever seems to mention him as a suspect, so I assume he has an airtight alibi, but I am not certain. Okay.

[00:37:17]Air tight alibi. Yes. Gordon Fickling was an airline pilot. Um, Elizabeth Short came out. Elizabeth Short had been engaged to a guy. The guy was killed at the very end of the war and I'm not going to get into that now, but it's easy to His name was Matt Gordon and this other guy was Gordon Fickling. I interviewed Gordon Fickling. Uh, as a matter of fact, they met in Florida and he subsequently was uh stationed in Long Beach, California. And so after Elizabeth Short's fiance was killed, uh Matt Gordon, she uh reconnected with Gordon Fickling. Uh she took the bus out uh to Los Angeles, Long Beach Routler, and stayed in a an apartment for like a week or something like that. And then they came up to Los Angeles and stayed at a hotel.

[00:38:06]And then he went his his happy own happy way. uh he was about to get uh discharged out of the service and so by the time Elizabeth Short was killed uh he was he was back east. He was on the east coast um flying for an air for an airline. Um when I interviewed Gordon Fickling, he minimized their relationship uh tremendously as anybody who had any actual contact with Elizabeth Short did. They didn't talk about it. either they didn't talk about it at all or they minimized it tremendously. Uh if you go through the old newspaper clippings, you will see that the newspapers republished Gordon Fickling's letters and all that kind of thing. When I asked him about the letters and said, "Well, there were he said, "Well, there weren't very many letters." Uh he just said, "Well, I enjoyed her company." And that kind of thing. Uh he did send her money. That's true. Um but no, he didn't he wasn't called active duty. he got out of the service and went went and was a um an airline pilot.

[00:39:10]Pretty sure it was in North Carolina. He had been a bomber pilot. Um he was in the so-called ferry command that they were building bombers in Long Beach. And so he would fly these completed airplanes around the country. That's what he did. Um but he was he was a um he was a bomber pilot. Uh whereas her fiance had been a fighter pilot. Big difference. Uh okay, let's see. Um, where are we here?

[00:39:40]80th anniversary of the murder. Safe to assume the killer has departed. Yeah, probably. Um, yeah, I mean either that or 100 years old. So, yeah, probably. Or 100 years or more. So, yeah, probably.

[00:39:56]Um, is the old bus station where Elizabeth Short came in on still there or torn down? Um, there are a couple of bus stations involved. She came into uh the bus station in Long Beach and I've I don't remember if that's there or not.

[00:40:14]Uh there was also a bus station in San Diego. I don't recall. It's been a while since I did that research. Um I my recollection is the bus station in San Diego was part of the hotel. There was a hotel there. Um, the bus station in Los Angeles, um, I haven't been by there recently. It was a Greyhound station for a long time. Um, it's in a crummy neighborhood just like Red Manley said. Um, so I, you know, she she she came into uh Long Beach and then uh she and Gordon Fickling came up to LA. I am not I'm not sure about the Long Beach uh Greyhound station uh to be honest with you. I' I'd have to go back and look at my notes. Um the the Chicago the the bus station in Chicago uh is still there. It's a Trader Joe's in case you're wondering. Um but uh and there was one in Hollywood. It was on Kena and I think that I think that bus station was gone. Uh, I think that's where she caught the bus to go uh down to San Diego was the bus station. It was um I'm think it was on Kena in Hollywood and I think that one's gone. Um, okay.

[00:41:35]Let's see. No. Uh, do I think she may have met her demise at a room at the Cecil Hotel? No. The the Cecil Hotel thing is absolute garbage. Um there is no connection at all between Elizabeth Short and the Cecil Hotel except people want it to be true, but it's not true.

[00:41:53]No. No. Um the the the genesis of that is that somebody thought they saw Elizabeth Short during her missing week at a bar next to next to the Hotel Cecil.

[00:42:09]They didn't. Uh, as I said, nobody knows where Elizabeth Short was from the time she left the Builtmore until the time she was her body was found. They don't know, but there's no connection to the Hotel Cecil at all, except for a very good PR campaign. Um, that's it. Let's see here.

[00:42:30]Uh, what do we got here?

[00:42:34]Oh, this is all Alex Bab stuff. I'm gonna I'm gonna skip that for now.

[00:42:40]Let's see. I heard the the site where the body was found was used for illegal dumping of trash.

[00:42:47]Um, oh, this is interesting. I heard that the I heard the site where the body was found, that would be on Norton Avenue, was used for illegal dumping of trash. Is that true? Also, I had a work friend whose dad was in the LAPD and he said he kept four bullets of 38 and the last two were 357. He said if he ever did get into a shoot, the first four bullets were from the LAPD. last were two were from him. Okay, let's talk about that for a minute.

[00:43:12]The the the site where Elizabeth Short's body was left on South Norton Avenue, not off DGEN as Steve Hodell will tell you, or on Degnon or Dgnen and Norton are the same street. Steve Steve really wants Elizabeth Short's body to be left on Degman uh because it fits into his whole scenario, but it wasn't. Uh Norton Avenue. Um, and so was it used for illegal dumping? Yeah. In in the sense that when you look at the crime scene pictures, there's a sign posted right in the middle of the block that says no dumping. Okay. Now, the kind of dumping that was going there was generally yard clippings and stuff like that. Just to get into the long explanation since you asked, um, Los Angeles even then was u concerned about what was going into the landfills. they weren't doing recycling.

[00:44:05]What they do did instead was they had incinerators and they would burn up everything and then what wasn't burned would go into the landfill. Well, of course, if you're burning all this stuff, you get tremendous smog, which was which was one of the main uh components of smog was everything people were burning in backyard incinerators, which is why they don't exist anymore.

[00:44:25]Okay. So, was it Yeah. I mean, when you look at the crime scene photos, um, there are looks like card, maybe a couple of cardboard boxes, that sort of thing. Um, when I interviewed Betty Bersinger, the woman who found the body, she said there was some broken side uh, glass on the sidewalk. Uh, she had her little girl in a stroller and she was trying to steer steer the wheels of the strollers through this broken glass on the sidewalk and she glanced over to her right and saw at the body of Elizabeth Short. So, yeah. Uh, as I said, and when you when you look at the photos of the crime scene, if you look real carefully, you will see um a sign that says no dumping. As for your gun question, um, dad was in the LAPD, except kept four bullets of 38 and the last two were 357.

[00:45:14]Well, that only works if you've got a 357. Um, you can fire 38 special uh ammo in a 357, but the standard sidearm for the LAPD at that time uh in the 40s was a 38 Smith and Wesson. I think mostly 38 Smith and Wesson, maybe Colts. Um, but in in either event, it was 38 special.

[00:45:37]Uh, I'm I'm pretty it was they definitely it was it wasn't 30 38 gun nut gun nut stuff here. I don't think it was a 38 Smith and Wesson. I think it was 38 special.

[00:45:50]Um, and yes, you can fire 38 special out of a 357, but you absolutely cannot fire 357 out of a 38 special. That doesn't work. So, uh, if you if the cop was issued a 357, which doesn't seem very I don't think the I don't think the police at least in the 40s were carrying 357s.

[00:46:08]I think they were carrying 38 specials.

[00:46:12]So, there's your answer. Um, gun nut time. Okay. Um, let's see. Cecil Hotel, is there DNA found on the letter that was sent to the police? Ah, the DNA question. One of one of the perennial questions is DNA in the Black Dollalia case. Okay, remember our envelope here.

[00:46:34]Okay, what did the killer do? The killer wiped down everything with some kind of solvent. It's not clear whether it was kerosene or gasoline or what it was, but it had an odor. when they when they opened the envel when they opened the envelope uh or or when they got the contents of the envelope, they could smell a solvent and they could the stuff was the material was still wet. So, the chance of DNA surviving uh whatever the killer used as solvent, probably not. Uh and and the other thing is you don't know who handled uh that envelope because it went through the postal system. The out the outside of the envelope that went through the postal system. It is theoretically, I guess, possible on the back of the stamp if the killer, you know, licked the stamp as in the olden days that, you know, people either licked the stamp and put it on the envelope or if you were in a business office, uh, the secretary would very frequently have a little glass dish with a sponge in it that they kept wet.

[00:47:44]And so instead of having to lick all those envelopes, they would use that.

[00:47:48]Uh, and the same thing for the envelope, uh, the the flap of the envelope. Um, maybe if if if the guy licked it or maybe he used one of those little things to wet that was a very common desk accessory. Um, maybe the back uh of the some of the larger pieces of newsprint maybe again uh whether whether it survived this long, but I wouldn't say it's real likely. Now, is it what's the likelihood that the LAPD is going to investigate that? I'd say none. I I would say absolutely none given the given the attitude of the LAPD uh on the Black Dollalia case. Um they want to they are going to just keep it locked up. And the whole attitude is that uh it it take anything to do with the Black Dollalia case, press news conferences, uh interviews, anything like that. That takes time away from investigating cases that can be will result in arrest, a prosecution, and a conviction. Okay?

[00:48:53]They don't want to waste some time on something that is never going to get solved. Uh so their attitude is, you know, yeah, it's there. It's it's kind of in mothballs and that's that. So, I don't think I don't think the LAPD is going to pursue it. Um, yeah. Any Okay. Astro Motel. No. No.

[00:49:14]That that again, there's a lot of stuff about the Astro Motel in in Boxy and um No. Uh it's just there's there's really no connection to it. People want there to be a connection to it, but they investigated the hell out of that. Ray Pinker of the Crime Lab. Uh, one of the, you know, I think they went in there with luminol. I I think I think they pull up the baseboards. They would frequently pull up the baseboards to look for blood. Uh, they did that in um Mark Hansen's house as well. Uh, who's Mark Hansen? Very quickly, Mark Hansen was the uh partner in a in a nightclub, the Florentine Gardens. Uh, and he let Elizabeth Short stay with him rentree uh for a while. And a few years later, he got himself shot, uh, and was in the hospital. And at some point, um, I think they tested, uh, the bathroom, certain parts of the house, uh, for blood and didn't find anything. Uh, they also bugged his house, um, and but didn't find anything. So, um, yeah.

[00:50:21]Anyway, uh, let's see here.

[00:50:25]DNA. Yeah, Astro Motel.

[00:50:30]Um, okay. Has any verified or unverified alleged information been found about the whereabouts of Dr. Bailey during the missing week? No.

[00:50:40]It is very difficult to do much investigation of someone who lived a long time ago and lived a very unremarkable life. You know, I mean, who is Walter Bailey? Walter Bailey is the guy I have developed as a suspect. And very briefly, Walter Bailey lived a block from the crime scene. Okay. He was a prominent surgeon living in Los Angeles at the time. He lived a block from the crime scene with his family on South Norton Avenue. And his daughter was friends with Elizabeth Short's older sister, Virginia.

[00:51:17]What happened was this. Virginia got engaged to a guy named Adrien West. Uh he was in the Navy. He went back to uh MIT for advanced training and radar during the war. He met Virginia Short.

[00:51:32]They got engaged. Uh he was assigned to a ship here on the West Coast. She came out to the West Coast to Los Angeles uh to be close to him whenever his uh ship would come back into port. And so um that is how she got and how did how did what was the connection? church. Uh Adrienne West was a devout Presbyterian.

[00:51:56]At least some members of the Bailey family attended the same Presbyterian church and that's the connection. Um but Virginia Short was acquainted with uh a member of the Bailey family. There's pictures of them together, so that's that's really inarguable. Um but Walter Bailey in general lived a pretty unremarkable life and so you know without having like a date book or a calendar or something like that where he was dayto day it's really difficult. Um there are a few things but um it would be nice to have more you know but that's the nature of research is you you know you just don't have this stuff. Um let's see.

[00:52:49]Okay. Do we know if her blood was drained before or after she was cut in half? I assumed after but recently heard it was actually before.

[00:52:58]Okay.

[00:53:00]Trigger warning.

[00:53:03]What what was the cause of death with Elizabeth Short?

[00:53:09]Um blows to the head. She was hit across the forehead and loss of blood. Okay.

[00:53:15]Shock due to So she had a concussion.

[00:53:18]There was bleeding in the brain. When they when they autopsied her and opened her skull and examined her brain, they found bleeding in there. Okay. Um, you can tell from some of the mutilations whether she was alive in the sense that her heart was beating uh if there's bruising along the track of the of the cuts and it seems likely that um she her heart was still beating. I would like to think she was unconscious at the time when when the cuts to her mouth were done cuz there was bleeding along uh there was bruising along that. Um but she was exanguinated and in order to exanguinate somebody which means drain it body completely of blood um you need to do it right after their death. Uh it it's like any large animal. Uh if you are and I have spent time watching videos of guys dressing out, you know, pigs, beef, uh cattle, livestock, stuff like that. And they have to be deer. Um they have to be bled out right away or or the blood will will not flow. And so for her to be exanguinated um the blood had to be drained out immediately. Um so that that that is the best that I know there. Being cut in half was probably uh later. Okay. Um but a lot of other things were done were done to her also. There was a lot of mutilations that um you know besides the cutting in half uh in terms of uh there are a lot of crisscross uh the the original detectives described them as tic-tac-toe or crisscross marks stuff like cross-hatching. Um so different places of the body. The meaning of that probably only had meaning to the killer and to you or me looking at the body we can what did that mean to him?

[00:55:30]Uh, okay. Let's see. Does Steve Hodell think George off Jean Spangler as well?

[00:55:37]We don't know that Jean Spangler was killed. He he thinks so. Uh and and Steve Odell has to do some fancy footwork because his dad had just been arrested on charges of molesting Tamar.

[00:55:50]And in order for uh that timing to work, to fit together, um George Odell has to be arrested for molesting tomorrow. He's got to get out of jail immediately and then then instantaneously go connect with Jean Spangler, you know, and it's like, yeah, the guy's already under investigation for for molestation. Do you think he would want to go, you know, uh get rid of some actress? And there's nothing to show a connection with George Odell and Jean Spangler at all. George uh Steve Hodell just wants it to be true. Um again, we don't we don't know what happened to Jean Spangler. We just don't know. Is she dead? Probably. Um but she might have disappeared and reinvented herself in something else. People do that occasionally. Um, and in my opinion, the finding the person in Griffith Park, that was a red herring.

[00:56:48]That was to throw everybody off the track and it certainly worked. Um, but you know, in in the world of Steve Hodell where whatever is true is what he he wants to be true. Uh, you know, yeah, he thinks so. Uh, quick question here.

[00:57:06]Have you ever read Bill James book, The Man from the Train that connects us?

[00:57:10]Yeah. No, I have not read that. If if Bill James is the guy who who um does uh saber metrics and statistics and applies them to true crime, I'm really not interested in in what he said. I think did he do I think he did the big anthology and there's something about the black doll in there. It's like yeah that that just doesn't work for me.

[00:57:34]>> Uh okay.

[00:57:36]Okay. I'm going to ignore I think I've dealt with that question. Okay. One more from the live questions here.

[00:57:43]Uh let's see.

[00:57:55]Um let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Do I think the killer knew Elizabeth Short?

[00:58:01]Oh, yeah. Yeah. Whoever killed Elizabeth Short, it was personal. It was very personal. There was a lot of anger directed at her. what was done to her was very um personally directed. Uh whereas Zodiac uh Zodiac was just hunting uh couples that were making out on lovers lanes. He didn't care who he killed. It didn't matter. Uh with with Elizabeth Short, it was definitely directed at her as Elizabeth Short. Um do I think that she died at the Builtmore? No. Um, a written note in a cardboard shoe soul is a date of December 12th. A head shot of uh, no, a writ a written note on a cardboard shoe soul listing a date of December 12th, 1942 and a head shot of you know what? I think that sounds familiar. Um, and that's all I'll say about that. Um, I think somebody sent that to me. Um, you said Mity Roberts knew very little about the case. Did Did she know anything at all about it? I don't know.

[00:59:13]Uh, what I And what am I talking about here? Missy Roberts was the custodian of the Black Dollalia case after Brian Carr. Uh and when Brian I went went to lunch with Brian Carr uh when he retired and uh he said I don't know who's going to get the Black Dalia case after me but whoever they are they will never know it as well as I do because they won't have the time to devote to it. And indeed that's what Mity Roberts told me in 2015 when I talked to her. Uh she said her captain ordered her not to spend a lot of time on it. She didn't. Um, I think she was probably briefed on the key questions. Uh, I think she probably knew that. Um, but there's there's a lot of things that are really Black Dollalia 101 that at least based on what she said in Killer in the Code, it's like, wow, she doesn't know that. I mean, and it really is it really is Black Dollalia 101 that that she doesn't know. And that's why I say um somebody needs to be the historian of the Black Dollalia case because there's no institutional memory left. And I I will this is a good place to wind it up. Um people want to think that the kind of the first step in undercutting uh to to solving the Black Dolly case is to undercut the original investigation. The police were corrupt. The police were inept. Uh they they something fell through the cracks. Well, no, it didn't.

[01:00:39]Um, it was an exhaustive investigation.

[01:00:42]I will I will tell you right now that the investigation of the Black Dollalia case was state-of-the-art for 1947.

[01:00:50]Okay, that goes down hard with some people.

[01:00:54]Oh, the LAPD was corrupt. They were bump. No. No. The two lead detectives were especially Harry Hansen was an old pro. They'd been on the department for years. uh and Finus Brown, his partner, and it was a state-of-the-art investigation. They went out and interviewed people and interviewed people and Anton said, you know, they would interview me and then, you know, I I'd hear from them and they would ask me questions again. Um, so it was um, as I said, it was state-of-the-art. All of that is lost now. Uh there is in in boxy here there's the uh undated LAPD summary on the Black Dollalia case. Uh and that's pretty good. There's one minor mistake in there where I think it's probably written by Finest Brown um that the the newspapers nicknamed the Black Deli case. They did not. Elizabeth Short got the nickname down at the um drugstore in Long Beach. She was actually called that. Um but yeah, I mean Mitsy Mity by her own admission said she was told not to spend a lot of time on it and she obviously did not. Um you know, as I said, from the LAPD's point of view, it makes perfect sense because the LAPD is interested in spending time on cases that are going to arrest in an arrest, prosecution, and conviction. Nobody's ever going to be arrested in the Black Dalia case. Nobody's ever going to be convicted. No, it's never going to happen. And so for them, it's just a big time suck. And I will I will leave it at that. Okay, let me conclude with this.

[01:02:37]Uh June 16th, Black Dalia Book Club, I'll talk about the FBI files. Um and go watch David Orchack's video part three.

[01:02:49]It's it is terrific. It is absolutely a masterpiece of debunking uh a a true crime fraudster. Everything should be that good. Really, the the link is in the description. Go watch that video.

[01:03:05]It's fantastic. Ed Edwards, I'm talking to you. Go watch that. Go go go you and spins need to definitely go and and watch that um and watch that video. It is fantastic. Okay.

[01:03:19]Next. Next. Ask me anything on the Black Dalia case is July 7th. Okay. Will I have heard from Michael Connley by then?

[01:03:27]I don't know. It's not looking good. I have to say it's been almost three months. Um, but killerinthecode.com says season two chapter 11 coming soon. So maybe. Okay. And that is it. Watch David Orchack's video. Black Dollalia Book Club on June 16th and say goodbye Boxy.

[01:03:53]Okay, see you in a month.