How REDWALL Shaped Our Childhoods

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:05]Unfortunately, Isaac's not here for this because all three of us grew up with Red Wall. We all love Red Wall, but we are going to talk about Red Wall as our main component of the episode today.

[00:00:14]>> Actually, all three of us kind of agree with one of the best Red Wall books being The Long Patrol, which is interesting because I I don't know a lot of people that have necessarily got that far in the series.

[00:00:24]>> Yeah.

[00:00:25]>> You know, a lot of people love book three. They love Salamander. A lot of people love Um, why don't you why don't you tell us why? I mean, I remember you saying Long Patrol was your first or second. So, >> yeah, dude. So, I mean, I love all the Red Wall books to be honest with you.

[00:00:41]Like, I think as a series, they're all pretty amazing. Um, I mean, there's definitely weaker and stronger ones. Uh, the long patrol though specifically, I think one of the greatest things about Red Wall as a series is that it doesn't treat kids, you know, it write it's for kids, but it treats them like small adults. It has a certain level of respect for them. And I think the Long Patrol with the characterization and like, you know, the development, what they go through in the book is kind of like the best one of the best examples in that series of that. you know, it's not just like it's not I mean they're like I said, you know, they're all actually kind of they they all have kind of mature content, like a little bit mature content for the age, but as far as like the violence and stuff goes, but I think that one specifically as far as the character building and development and all that and all that kind of stuff is really like the best one of the best examples in that series.

[00:01:36]>> Yeah, I agree.

[00:01:38]>> I do have a hard time here. Do you think that Red Wall Do you think that Red Wall reads different as a kid? Because I read it as a kid and now I've read it as an adult and a lot of the stuff that sticks out to me as adult didn't register as a kid whether I didn't know it yet, whether I didn't really comprehend because it it is middle grade, but it's not really middle grade. It's not what we would consider middle grade now in 2026. I don't think >> based on based on how we talk about YA, based on how we talk about what middle-rade books are supposed to be.

[00:02:05]Not only is it pretty comprehensive actually really per American reading level at this moment in time, >> right, >> but the material like uh Alia or whatever the the red book where where Lady Rose Eyes I think that's I think I'm right. Lady Rose Eyes uh >> sounds right.

[00:02:25]>> Her death actually is one of the it's one of the only books that's ever made me cry. Like actually cry. You know, you tear up a little bit here and now in books, but like I actually cried because it was done so well, which I think attests to Brian Jock's writing because to be able to write this animal character that translates into human emotion in a middle-grade book and to do it well enough to make an adult man cry. Maybe I'm a wuss. I don't know. But it's pretty impressive.

[00:02:53]>> No, dude. I mean, J dude, he is an amazing writer. Honestly, like Red Wall is universally almost everyone I know, pretty much everyone I do know, I can't think of anybody who didn't like it, who read it as a kid. And I mean, even as an adult, you go back and you read it and like you said, you know, it's it hits differently, there's layers and layers to it. It's not just like a simple story for kids. Um, but I mean even beyond that, you know, like if you look at some of the other stuff that he's written, I don't know if you've ever read anything else that he's written besides Red Wall, >> but uh he wrote this other series and it's like about the about a kid who was a on the Flying Dutchman and then he ends up in service uh to like this angel a um and stuff. It's a really interesting series of stories, but um it's really like emotional and like inc it hits so much harder than you think it's going to for like a kids book, you know, cuz so so kind of just the rundown is this kid survives the Flying Dutchman going down and but for being pulled out of the uh you know p pulled out of the ship and all that, he has to go around and help people. He lives kind of forever. him and his dog live forever and they just go around helping people but he can never like settle in one place uh because he always has to keep going to the new place and help new people and so it's like man that series just like Red Wall you know it's like as a kid you're like wow this is pretty intense but as an adult you're like wow that really hits hard you know >> yeah yeah actually Mike Mullman weighed in to say how he tried the first red wall He read it 45 years ago.

[00:04:34]Oh, had he read it 45 years ago, his opinion would likely be different. Just so everybody knows, Isaac is a brain of the operations. So, me and Mike are we're on a struggle bus trying to figure it all back. Also, just going back real quick, I saw Rose comment about >> if you can back up why you don't like something without personal attacks, it's fair, which of course I think we all agree with. But as long as you keep it on the work itself and don't go beyond that, um, it's fair. But going back to what you were saying, I mean, I think Brian Jocks just writes this.

[00:05:07]I mean, the quote is what about he doesn't have sympathetic villains, right? We live in a time right now where so many villains are sympathetic. He said, "I try to create very clear moral signposts of what is right and what is wrong. I won't have sympathetic baddies and schizophrenic goodies in my books.

[00:05:25]And I think you read the books, you know that the bad guys are clearly bad. They suck. The good guys are very heroic.

[00:05:31]They're who you root for.

[00:05:34]>> Um, God, that's the exact cover I have.

[00:05:36]I love that one.

[00:05:38]>> Sorry, I forgot to put that one up there a second ago.

[00:05:41]>> And I really think, first of all, he does a great job, right? He does a fantastic job at that. I think now in a time where so many people want sympathetic villains or or so many people are doing sympathetic villains that having this really black and white like hey this is the moral compass this is the code you go beyond that code you're not good you're bad there's no line there there's no >> there is one book what is the book with uh is it the tagarong where he's >> oh yeah yeah >> that's the only one that really walks the line but it's still clearcut or bad but >> for that book it is interesting that He has a character that kind of toes the line of where he belongs.

[00:06:20]>> Yeah. No, and I mean he did he did kind of have a little bit of that cuz I mean in the Outcast of Red Wall, if I remember correctly, he also had uh one where you know the character kind of gets thrown out of the red wall. He's he kind of almost gets I don't want I don't remember if it was like he's like kind of framed for something or like they just think he did something. Um, but yeah, it's, you know, he he there's a little bit more complexity there than just the straight black and white, I think. But, you know, it does work.

[00:06:51]>> Yeah.

[00:06:52]>> So, someone said this the other day. I want to know if you agree with it that Red Wall is the middle-grade equivalent, and I know some people in the chat are probably gonna eat me up about this or on Twitter later, the middle-grade equivalent of Lord of the Rings, of what it accomplishes, of the size of the world, of the of I think of the impact.

[00:07:12]I mean, obviously, there's no Lord of the Rings movies. So, as far as media go or no red wall equivalent of Lord of the Rings movies, so as far as media goes, it's not there. But >> I think I think The Hobbit is the middle-grade equivalent of Lord of the Rings. But um but no, I I I I see where you're coming from and I definitely think that there's some merit to that statement. Um I think the morality, the way that he plays with stuff is kind of, you know, it's very comparable. Um like you said, you know, there is the there is the clear good and evil side. There's uh surprising depth to the characters.

[00:07:48]Uh there's a lot of, you know, intense scenes for sure. A lot more intense than you think there's going to be. um going into it. I think uh but you know one thing too as far as what you want you want to say if you want to call it the middle grade um Lord of the Rings I think the big thing about Red Wall is that it's very timeless which is I think the best comparison to Lord of the Rings you know um even if you've never read it or even if you've never heard of it if you give it to a kid nowadays I think it would hit them very much the same way it hit us back when we were kids >> you I hope so. We didn't quite have all the outlets and social things that that they have now, but I would hope so because like I said, even as an adult, I just reread Well, I just got the last two books, so I do have to get on those after The Wheel of Time and a couple indie books. I want to get on them. It's not like Red Wall's long read, so it's not that bad. Um, but I just got the final two books I've never read.

[00:08:47]Uh, Mike says, "I was 16 when Red when the Red Wall book started coming out, so there's no chance in me being a fan."

[00:08:53]There's still a huge chance. I just reread it and I'm definitely not 16 anymore and it was great. Actually, it was better as an adult. As a kid, I remember being like, "Wow, this is super cool." Especially because Robin Hood Disney was out around the same time or whatever. I remember watching that. Um, and it was just I remember seeing I was at the what are those called? The book fairs that we used to have. I forget what it's called.

[00:09:16]>> Classic.

[00:09:17]>> Yeah. And I remember seeing run and I was like that book cover is cool. Let me get that. And I remember being totally like captivated and like, whoa, what the heck's happening here? Uh, but reading as an adult, the world that he builds and the way he uses the animals and the different personalities and I don't know, it's it's way more intricate than I realized as a kid, obviously, when I was a fourth and fifth and sixth grader reading these books compared to an adult out of college. Well, and that kind of goes back to the whole reason that we're actually talking about this subject of Red Wall is, you know, Netflix just fumbled the whole thing with Red Wall and lost the license. And so that's why Red Wall's in the news right now and why we thought to talk about it in the first place.

[00:10:04]>> And Mike Mullman would love everybody to know that. Sorry Tim, you are a child.

[00:10:08]And I mean that positively. Thanks, Mike. I'm okay with that. Um, yeah. I'm I saw a lot of rhetoric about whether it was good that Netflix lost it or not. A lot of Red Wall fans, Red Wall fans are really hardcore. Red Wall fans remind me of Supernatural fans. Is it everywhere?

[00:10:29]>> No. But those core fans are, >> man, they're strong. They're like really, really into it. Uh, >> yeah.

[00:10:36]>> A lot of them were like, "Good. We don't need to see Netflix ruin Red Wall." But I'm on the opposite camp. I actually I've wanted a Red Wall movie series, show series so bad that >> there wasn't one.

[00:10:50]>> Yeah, but like I want a new one to see what they actually do, especially in a time where TV is actually accelerated beyond movies realistically.

[00:10:57]>> Yeah. I mean, honestly, dude, I really I'll tell you my dream, which probably will never happen, is uh some some someone like Studio Gibli taking on Red Wall. That would be the most amazing thing from in my opinion of all time.

[00:11:12]But uh I I do think an animation would be great and especially like we're talking about, you know, it's such a timeless series and I think kids nowadays would really connect with it.

[00:11:24]I think it sucks that it's, you know, I think a lot of streaming services would be not amazing, would would not put out a great product. So it has to be the right one. So, I get where the Netflix haters are coming from.

[00:11:38]>> I would trust HBO. Netflix I don't really trust for good reason. HBO I would actually trust to do >> a pretty decent job. Can you bring up any of these comments? I'd like to bring up Algo's comment.

[00:11:52]>> I don't know how you do it.

[00:11:55]>> Uh >> oh, this one.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah, there we go. Oh, no. No, the one below it.

[00:12:01]>> Hold on. Um, yes, there we go.

[00:12:06]>> Oh, sure.

[00:12:07]>> Our chat screen is also up there, though.

[00:12:11]To answer Mike's question, no. My My Tales of Battle is inspired by Red Wall and is Grim but it's not. Well, I guess it's kind of Grim Dark Red Wall, but it's like Red Wall and Game of Thrones had a baby. And then not that I can write like Brian Jocks or or GRM because they're my two biggest idols. I cannot write like them.

[00:12:30]Maybe by time I'm Maybe by time I'm your age. Mike Mike Mullman, not not you, Mike.

[00:12:36]>> I was gonna say you're you're a long way from Mike Mullman.

[00:12:42]>> Yeah, I I would have been interested to see what But I'm also a weird person. Uh in the group chat, obviously you're a part of it. I'm on the opposite end of almost everybody with everything because I do really enjoy most things. I I can watch almost anything and enjoy it. I can read almost anything and enjoy it because I really take my own perspectives out of everything and I hit it to enjoy it. So, Rings of Power, I know it's not popular with a lot of people, especially authors. I can enjoy it for what it is. I know it's not Tolken's direct work. I know it's not, you know, the Lord of the Rings movie set in TV. I know this, but I can still enjoy it. There there are lines. The Wheel of Time show can't really enjoy very much. I tried. Can't do it. Um, Stranger Things last season, fumbled.

[00:13:25]So, there are certain things that I can't get on on, but I do mostly enjoy things.

[00:13:30]>> I agree with you partially. Like, I know where you're coming from. I get it.

[00:13:34]Like, I definitely feel like I can be more lenient than some people when it comes to adaptions. Like, I know adaptations are going to have to change things because of the change. You know, you can't put an entire book in a movie or a TV show. You know, it's just it it doesn't happen. It's not possible. Um, but I will say the thing like for for instance Rings of Power like you were talking about. I feel like it they changed kind of the fundamental like idea behind it, you know, like the um like what Tolken was trying to get across in a way. I guess I don't know if that makes any sense, but it didn't feel >> Oh, yeah.

[00:14:21]That way I'm not alone. But continue.

[00:14:23]>> Oh, well, no. I mean, I, you know, I don't know, dude. It's Rings of Power.

[00:14:28]It just didn't feel like Tolken to me, you know, watching it. Uh, it felt like a completely different thing that they just kind of wallpapered uh Tolken's aesthetic over.

[00:14:39]>> I think it's difficult. I mean, first of all, you have a guy like Peter Jackson that made an incredible series of films.

[00:14:47]So just there there's going to be a gap.

[00:14:50]You're going to TV, there's a gap. You don't have all the rights, there's a gap. Um I will say I think I separated it early on knowing that it wasn't going to be the direct descendant of Lord of the Rings. So for me it was okay. And I think I could do that with Red Wall knowing that hey this is not going to be as good as the books, but let's see what they do and hope that they stick to the source material.

[00:15:12]Right? That's the big issue with with Wheel of Time is they didn't stick to the source material at all.

[00:15:18]>> So, I think I I am really lenient in general. I am a positive person. Um, as far as Rings of Power goes, season two, uh, Charlie, whatever, the guy that played Sauron did kill it. Maybe that's why I liked it so much because I love Sauron. I love um, what is uh, crap.

[00:15:35]What is that old book that >> um, the Similar Sim Similarian? Is that what?

[00:15:43]>> No, not even the one by him. It's all about the devil. Now I can't remember what it's called. We even read it in university. Now I can't remember. I'll think of it at some other point. Um, >> but I I would have been interested in seeing the Red Wall show. I'm kind of I've actually been putting off reading the last two Red Wall getting the last two Red Wall books because I once they're gone, I probably won't go back and reread the series again, >> right?

[00:16:05]>> Maybe I will. Who knows? Maybe one day.

[00:16:08]But like it's saying goodbye to my childhood basically once I'm done that series. That's the book that really tied me into being a writer.

[00:16:14]>> It's influenced both of both Yumi and Isaac. We've talked about it.

[00:16:18]>> Um I think it's influenced a ton of people as as we've said >> and I think saying goodbye to that is actually saying goodbye to a huge piece of like why I got to where I where I am, why I even started writing fanfiction, why I included animals after college, why I even got into writing it all in reading. It's it's all Brian Jocks. But I mean, you know, at the end of the day, just because you finish a series doesn't mean it has to be out of your life forever. You know what I mean? You can always reread it or you can read it to somebody else. Um, you know, you can pass it on to the next generation. I think that's the whole reason >> a TV show excites me so much, you know.

[00:16:57]>> Oh, yeah. Well, that's the thing is like if they did a TV show, I'm like, "Okay, I have another another outlet of this, right? Another growth to this." I mean, for your book, when you were writing The Scion Conspiracy and you were getting toward the end, did you put it off at all? Were you like, "Oh my gosh, like once this book is done, once I'm done, this book, it's done." Like the book itself is done.

[00:17:18]>> I'm kind of the opposite, man. Once I started getting to the end, I was like like really putting in more time trying to get to the end because it was like once the end was in sight, it was more that middle part that I was like procrastinating. I was just like, "God, this is I'm I'm like just as far from the really exciting beginning as I am from the really exciting end." And now I'm like at this middle part where it's just work, >> you know?