Business Talk - Cheslyn Jacobs on making banking beautiful and customer-first

Ajouté : 2026-05-23

[00:00:07][music] [music] >> Welcome to Business Talk here on businesstech.co.za and time to talk about digital banking, which as we know is is probably one of the frontiers of finance at the moment.

[00:00:28]It certainly changed the way that South Africans open accounts and move money and really think about banks. But the next frontier will likely have to move beyond the technology towards things that are maybe slightly more intangible, things like trust, service, design and whether a bank can feel maybe less like a grudge purchase and more like something that genuinely works for people. Now, GoTime Bank, who were formerly Time Bank, is now entering a new phase under CEO Chrizanne Jacobs with a refreshed brand. It's got a new app and this bold promise of banking made beautiful. That's an ambition to become South Africa's most loved bank.

[00:01:03]The bank says its new app has already seen a million customers migrate in less than 3 months. Well, it's also expanding its physical presence through dedicated customer hubs in malls across Gauteng and the Western Cape. So, to find out more, I'm joined now by Chrizanne Jacobs, the um the freshly minted, shall I say, CEO. In a sense, Chrizanne, let's start with the phrase at the heart of the brand launch. It's great to have you on.

[00:01:26]Banking made beautiful. It's not usually a category that people associate with beauty. They usually associate banking with fees or queues or passwords and call centers. So, what does banking made beautiful actually mean in real life?

[00:01:42]Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Michael.

[00:01:43]Thanks for Thanks for having me.

[00:01:45]Um yeah, I think and I think you've captured the essence of what we're trying to do quite nicely.

[00:01:52]I think I mean, the bank's just over 7 years old now. We've just over 1.7 million customers in South Africa already.

[00:01:58]Um so we're super super happy with the way customers have responded to what we put out there.

[00:02:04]Um and and I think if you kind of go back to when we launched the business, we always positioned ourselves as a disrupter, as a challenger.

[00:02:11]Um and I think that essence of of of who we are won't disappear.

[00:02:17]And as I'm saying, I think you've captured maybe beautifully and really nicely in relation to how customers order and who they are or what they emotionally experience And and I think that's most probably the biggest driving force for us called the banking this challenge is ultimately what we think the biggest differentiator going forward is going to be is how customers experience you as a business.

[00:02:43]Um and and I think the world's changing so rapidly that maybe 10 years ago that so far down a customer's call it list of list of needs.

[00:02:56]But if one thing's how customers are changing, who those customers are becoming, we actually believe that needs going to go further and further up the hierarchy.

[00:03:05]Um and and the role ultimately the role money plays in everybody's life, we actually think the real experience you have is one that is beautiful and one that creates the sensation of love.

[00:03:19]So how would that happen? What would a customer experience differently tomorrow because of this repositioning to make them think of their bank in such a revolutionary way because it is revolutionary?

[00:03:32]Yeah, so so that it will manifest differently for different people kind of depending on where they are, what it is in the phase of their lives. I I often I often say I love to look at the world through the lens of my kids.

[00:03:44]I've got 11-year-old son and a 9-year-old daughter.

[00:03:48]Um and and they still happen to be the most innocent things in the world, all right? think it's because there's no filter, there's no inhibition. Yeah.

[00:03:55]Almost what you see is what you get all the time.

[00:03:57]I've got two daughters that are 11 and 9 as well.

[00:04:01]Oh, wow. That's That's amazing. So, so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:04:07]And when you look at how they interact with you and you try and go back to when you were kind of like that age and how you were interacting with some of the things, I think there's a vast, vast difference.

[00:04:19]So, ultimate I think as a business today, you've got what is the challenge?

[00:04:23]You've got You've got the challenge of how do you solve your customer needs based on your customer needs today?

[00:04:29]But at the same time, how do you create a business that is sustainable in for many, many years to come?

[00:04:36]And to do that, you have to have the lens of what does your customer look like So, in essence, who is your customer of tomorrow? And the reality, Michael, for most customers of tomorrow are our kids.

[00:04:48]And And the question is, what are they going to want? What are their needs?

[00:04:52]And how do you start preparing your business today to satisfy those?

[00:04:57]Now Now, I think if you think about again your daughters and what they demand is now, even just a few All right, versus what your demands are were of your parents, those things have fundamentally shifted.

[00:05:10]And And I think the approach we've now taken as a business is preparing us for that.

[00:05:16]All right. But the challenge we've adopted is to say, "Perfect.

[00:05:19]Customer of today, their natural expectation We're going to turn it into their natural expectation.

[00:05:27]Now, when you interact with our app and if you have, I think if you interact with the old one and interact with the new one, there's a vast, vast difference. The word we now use is leveling up.

[00:05:38]Um design, user user experience um the the level of how or in tune the app is to what our customers needs are, what we believe their most preferred actions or transaction types are, how we position those things in the app.

[00:05:56]We spend so much time trying to understand all of these things and present it in a way where the customer every single time they think about doing a transaction, they again think about TymeBank because we make it the easiest for them to complete that action.

[00:06:11]And and I think what we get that right, I think we will have a loving encounter with our customers with our bank.

[00:06:20]Yeah, I think a great way to put it and I can just think of my daughters and and as you say the the demands that they make of one as a parent nowadays and having that first conversation around when you can get your first SIM card for your cell phone at the age of 11 because all of my friends are we communicating now for class projects and then you but the expectations are there. She's digitally native and and she can do things on that device that I can't even do and I consider myself fairly digitally native. Uh you know, born in 1980 but it's also that user experience is what we've become used to Chisholm with with everything that we interact with online. You think Spotify and all of these other things and and so that then becomes the benchmark all over the place and also in the economics of banking. You know, it lowers friction, it lowers fees, it it creates better access. So it it's a great business model as well. Now, TymeBank had already built very strong recognition in South Africa before this rebrand. You had millions of customers as you said, you know, a clear challenger bank identity.

[00:07:22]Why rebrand to go TymeBank now?

[00:07:27]Yeah, so so just over 3 years ago we launched TymeBank in the Philippines.

[00:07:32]Um and and that bank has always traded as GoTymeBank in the Philippines from day one.

[00:07:39]Um but also because of how much our proposition has matured in South Africa, what we actually offer customers in South Africa.

[00:07:48]We believed one, there was so much new, so much more um that that we're now providing. We actually thought there was enough in it to completely do all of the so-called name change one.

[00:08:01]Number two, we actually think there's massive power in quality uniformity.

[00:08:06]Now, we take we take immense pride in the fact that this business was born in South Africa.

[00:08:13]It's subsequently been exported to multiple markets across Southeast Asia region.

[00:08:18]Uh and specifically Philippines being our we must get them back.

[00:08:22]Um and and that bank has been doing incredibly well in a really short space.

[00:08:28]So, and and obviously as a business we've got future ambitions of even further global expansion.

[00:08:37]And and the question we were then faced with how do we best position all of our for success? Now, now I'm sure you know about all the big bank brands around the world. I don't think we're able to kind of position ourselves like that.

[00:08:53]But I think you do know or do understand that there's real power in having that level of uniformity.

[00:09:00]Um as the world continues to globalize, South Africa often is a lag economy for for lack of a better but I think that lag can be reduced to hold.

[00:09:13]Um and we think there's real power in the level of uniformity. So, we're opting call it our broader group uh our our broader group name in in the form of GoTime Bank.

[00:09:24]Uh we think that allows to accelerate our next phase of growth one.

[00:09:30]But also number two, actually capture the essence that what we've done is built a business in South Africa that has now become a global enterprise.

[00:09:40]Yeah, and you know, so you know, from what I'm hearing, it it's definitely to align that global expansion, which is you know, through that Philippines transaction really taken off and the numbers there are just phenomenal and and building on what the founder Conrad Jonker has has established in terms of the chassis, leveling up as you say with the app and and I think customers will be feeling that as well. But when you look, I mean, it's a very competitive locally, very competitive landscape and globally I'm sure as well. We're not short of banks in South Africa claiming to be digital or customer-centric or low cost. If you look at Capitec, they changed the mass market playbook. Discover has gone behavioral. Bank Zero and others have pushed digital purity. So very simply, in that lot, how is GoTime different?

[00:10:28]So so for us it's all about the real value to customers.

[00:10:32]So so we believe we've got to deliver real value to customers. If if it's in the heart of the interaction, and where we've done things very very different, and that's something we're really proud of, is we've not at any single time discriminated against any of our customers based on the financial stature today.

[00:10:53]And and I'll give you a simple example.

[00:10:55]If you save with GoTime Bank today, whether you've got the ability to save 1,000 rand or the ability to save 100,000 rand, GoTime Bank is the only bank in South Africa that will pay both those customers market-leading interest rates.

[00:11:13]Not only market-leading interest rates, the same interest rates to both those customers.

[00:11:18]Now, I'm I'm not sure who you who you bank with or how long you bank with them.

[00:11:23]And and if you're really interested in doing the exercise, simply go to their website and you'll see a table on all of their websites that differentiates interest paid to customer based on how much they can save.

[00:11:35]Now again in our challenger mentality, I can with a high degree of confidence question whether that's the right thing to do concerning whether South Africa find themselves or ourselves as a country one and what that actually means for our people.

[00:11:53]Now for years and years and years 100,000 rand saver, their money was never ever allowed as hard for them as the 100,000 rand saver.

[00:12:04]We've never thought that's what's right.

[00:12:06]We've never built a product to do that.

[00:12:08]So we've introduced our savings mechanism to allow every South African's money to work just as hard for them as anybody else's.

[00:12:18]And April, we offer market leading interest.

[00:12:21]Now Now again, I spoke earlier about our customers' needs are changing.

[00:12:26]The other reality and as you rightly said, we became in South Africa and by and large all of their business models are very very similar.

[00:12:35]Their pricing and structure is very similar, the way they pay interest to customers is very and the challenge you have is that all of you the so-called outlier who's doing these things differently and sometimes customers think that you're the one doing it wrong because all of them want to do it in a specific way.

[00:12:50]But like I said, the customer needs are changing. I promise you your daughter's going to look at these things very differently when she has to make this decision.

[00:12:58]And like I said earlier, I believe we are now doing all of our pricing to ensure that customers of tomorrow we are right at the top of their Yeah, and I think chief amongst those has got to also be the way we interface.

[00:13:11]I mean, we've all got cell phones almost on us from the time we wake up in the morning and the alarm goes off and you switch it off on the phone to the time you go to bed and you're setting that alarm again or whatever it is. I mean, and the new app I mean, it's already passed a million customer migrations in a matter of months.

[00:13:30]It's a serious adoption number. What what do you think explains the pace of that migration?

[00:13:37]So so one I think all of them are some bent up one and and I think we also pride ourselves in the fact that we've always taken this feedback to heart and and not necessarily always delivered on the timing they wanted us to deliver it on.

[00:13:52]Um but I think we can confidently say we've always taken that feedback to heart. One.

[00:13:57]Um and number two to to a certain degree we've we haven't introduced this necessarily in a big bang way.

[00:14:03]You know, so so so the mark our marketing team refers to it as breadcrumbing, slowly introducing these new enhancements.

[00:14:12]So that's I think what the team has done an amazing job in creating this demand in the market.

[00:14:18]Number two is that the way the world's changing again, Michael, is that you know we've become so dependent on information from our trusted sources.

[00:14:30]All right, so the old school word of mouth phenomenon.

[00:14:35]And I think that plays such a that must probably play a more important role today than it ever has before.

[00:14:40]Now now the new app has delivered the real real value to everybody. It's completely changed the user experience of our customers.

[00:14:49]Now your very early adopters, I can tell you that they've most probably brought on three, four, five people that they know who's traditionally used us anyway.

[00:15:00]And that's why we've consistently seen this fly with stake now and on a daily basis we actually see more and more people adopting the new app than they did the day before.

[00:15:10]And and we believe it's because what we've is that what we've given customers is that they are at at a at a tangible level at experience enhancements.

[00:15:21]And like I said, when you do those things what often happens is that will say they repay that favor by adopting, by embracing, and more importantly by spreading by spreading Yeah, and it certainly doesn't help that you've got that flat savings rate as you say of of of of 10% and free PayShap payments under 5,000 rand, no charges on overseas card transactions. I mean, that's real value. But when it comes to designing the the user experience, it reminds me very much of the late Steve Jobs when he was questioned about the early iPhone and he said sometimes customers don't understand what they want until you design it for them and then they realize and there's like a maze you know, that or a light that comes on.

[00:16:03]Often when you look at banking apps today, especially in the legacy sort of call it incumbent space, a lot of it feels to me like it's been bolted on and it's becoming a little clunky, a little difficult to navigate. There's just a lot going on. What are the key features that you've approached designing this new GoTime app with that genuinely improve the customer experience if you're just to dive into some of the detail?

[00:16:29]Yeah, and I and I and I and I and I think again even in your question the answer is so the way we even I look at the world is customer first.

[00:16:40]And my so so so we know we've got to understand what our customer Only from a product functionality perspective, but I get money from a user experience perspective.

[00:16:50]Uh obviously compared to what I is legacy, we we are a lot younger.

[00:16:56]Right? So I think the way we've architected our business is completely completely different.

[00:17:02]Um I'm sure you're aware that the biggest buzzword in across all of industries today is data.

[00:17:07]Right? And how important I thought it is, but more importantly how important understanding what the data is showing you is.

[00:17:16]Now, one we are a customer first business, that's why we keep it simple.

[00:17:20]business.

[00:17:21]So, a lot of decisions we make is in what the customers do.

[00:17:26]You know, something as simple as Michael potentially pressing two of the wrong buttons before completing that transaction. If I had visibility of these kind of transactions, maybe from a process and my experience perspective, we need to swap these two things around cuz it increases your rate of success next Now, having having that kind of data as a result of one is massively powerful.

[00:17:51]But, more importantly, having the ability to use that data to greatly improve whether that is whether is whether that really exists.

[00:17:59]And and I think we've done an amazing job of understanding how that data can deliver, continue to deliver real value to our customers by doing so.

[00:18:07]But, the real challenge for GoTime will be the challenge for a long time.

[00:18:13]Is cuz the reality is we're not going to get younger as a business.

[00:18:16]We're not going to get smaller as a business.

[00:18:19]The real challenge for us as a business is something with open arms and get excited by them.

[00:18:24]Is how do we maintain that level of agility?

[00:18:27]How do we maintain that level of innovation um as the business grows? And that And that And that challenge is something that we're excited by.

[00:18:37]Yeah, I Well, listen, as a business that is still, as you say, growing and scaling and but but you're showing phenomenal growth and these numbers are It's so interesting to to listen to you think like that in still what is a very early part of your journey and it shows you that um it it's very much a core focus of the business. And I think will remain one of the key strengths, that agility. I don't see uh GoTime being uh overly hamstrung by corporate bureaucracy anytime soon.

[00:19:09]Let's just put it that way. Um What What are the more interesting parts of your strategy is this move into customer hubs in malls. And it's almost going from clicks to bricks kind of speak. For for for a digital bank, it maybe sounds counterintuitive. But I guess as you grow, it's always important to meet your customers where they are or where they are. But let's hear it from you. Why does a bank built for the phone still need a kind of physical presence out there in in kind of shopping malls?

[00:19:38]So so we've got again we we've got this business I said that says the more digital the world becomes, the more human you need to be.

[00:19:47]And and at at the heart of it, the so human is money.

[00:19:53]You know, our customers are still human beings. The reality is that I think for a very long time human interactions become really really important.

[00:20:02]And I think potentially more more important areas are more emotive than others.

[00:20:08]Now now the reality is that you approach how you manage your money very differently to how you manage what is clothes you're going to go and buy a new meal at what movie you're going to go and watch at the cinema next week. I think I think the emotion that drives how you make those are very very different.

[00:20:27]And because we believe that on the money side, that emotion is higher, you're a lot more cautious by nature.

[00:20:37]And as digital as we are, we actually think that human interaction and physical presence bridges that gap.

[00:20:46]So we've got this one word that we created and we call it phygital.

[00:20:52]Physical and digital combined gives us phygital.

[00:20:55]And we think with the rebrand and the launch of our customer hubs, I spoke about this leveling up of our business.

[00:21:03]It brings that to life in a tangible way for us.

[00:21:07]All right? And and it's that age-old thing of oh, I've used this thing on on my phone all the time. I've heard about it. I've heard about it.

[00:21:16]Suddenly, I see a physical manifestation. It becomes real for me.

[00:21:21]So so so again, the bank has just said that we've built an amazing partnership with Pick n Pay across the country over the years.

[00:21:29]But again, the data showed us that our business has matured to a stage where our customers want us or want to see us independent.

[00:21:39]Uh and and the customer app stream brings that to our customers. So we're excited about that expansion, but um and and hopefully by by the middle of this year, we have hundreds of customers.

[00:21:52]Given that evolution though, and you say you look at the data and the partnerships have served you well, I have read some reports suggesting that Gold Time has exited Pick n Pay while continuing to expand its kiosks through Boxer and and TFG alongside these new mall hubs, obviously.

[00:22:09]Is is that correct? And and what changed then in your distribution thinking?

[00:22:13]Because we we also know that Pick n Pay is going through a bit of a rough patch at the moment.

[00:22:18]Yeah, you know, and and and Pick n Pay have been amazing digital partners of ours over the years and and Pick n Pay and Boxer have been outstanding ones um for that.

[00:22:29]Um so so the only the only change we made in that Pick n Pay we simply removed kiosks from the Pick n Pay world.

[00:22:37]Our customers can still do the full set of transactions that they could always do inside that world. That capability will always remain inside inside that environment because again, as a as a fully regulated uh retail bank, uh we fully integrate with the national payment system. So therefore, customers have utility at any of these places. So at a transaction level, no no change But between the parties between Pick n Pay and ourselves, was the the best next step for both businesses to be Capitec and ourselves.

[00:23:06][clears throat] Uh and and that's what we've done. And what our response our response was was the part of customer hubs. All right? Uh and from a timing perspective, Capitec and ourselves, all right? Like I said, just over 7 years old, now Um I've I've been at the bank since day one.

[00:23:27]We used to speaking to used to some of these things, but I don't know.

[00:23:30]The reality is 12.7 million customers.

[00:23:34]You take a Bank customer today, you've got 20 years and older and have a South African phone number. And 12.7 million one in three 3.2 eligible South Africans are already Bank customers.

[00:23:52]It's a crazy ratio when you think about that.

[00:23:55]You said we've got to meet our customers where they If we've got one in three eligible South Africans already as customers, they are now all over.

[00:24:06]And we've got to meet them where they are. And we think our our launch of customer hubs is a natural extension of that.

[00:24:13]On the issue of digital divide in South Africa, obviously, we're a country with great inequality still. And it comes back to an earlier point that you you don't feel it's fair to be offering uh differentiated interest rates necessarily, given the need to solve for that inequality at a broad societal level. And we often talk about financial inclusion. Do you Do you see physical hubs also as a way potentially for solving for that?

[00:24:40]Yeah, so so so So, I think in the for the immediate future, it's not done.

[00:24:45]But I think that will change too over time. And the question is how we prepare ourselves for that change. So, again, if you you can go to our team.

[00:24:52]Talk about our kids for the again, Michael. I I'm not sure, but my 11-year-old has will been I'm assuming your girls have never been into a bank branch either.

[00:25:03]And then the question you've got to ask yourself is do you ever see them do you ever see them All right. So so that that evolution is happening.

[00:25:14]It's happening at different speeds in different markets.

[00:25:17]One.

[00:25:18]Number two, think about the role your girls now play in your life versus the role you played in your parents' life from an information flow perspective.

[00:25:28]I think back in the day we all we ever did was listen to our parents because they always knew more than we did.

[00:25:34]If you think about your relationship with your the amount of things they actually teaching you is mind-blowing.

[00:25:44]Right? And that's because this change is happening.

[00:25:48]so-called higher LSM pockets because information is so much more available to them.

[00:25:54]Right? Is it the role or the role that our generation of customers playing in our parents' generation of customers' So even though yes we came with customer power that I think we do today, we do believe that customer needs have evolved as well and we're very very well aware of that.

[00:26:13]is we've got to pay careful attention to when that new change is and what that new becomes and then we have to be in a position to respond to that.

[00:26:21]But where we are today, we think it's on the right thing to do.

[00:26:24]But any any partners in the value chain Yeah. A great example there and yeah I I can't imagine that would my daughters ever want to go into [laughter] a bank branch. That's certainly not their list of top things to do on the weekend. Now, you you've announced that GoTime is going to give staff shares in the business as well. Um and it always speaks to the culture of an organization when you try and empower your own people but take me through the thinking of of the decision and and and the timing.

[00:26:56]Yeah, so so the best time is always now, I suppose.

[00:27:03]You know, if you decide to do it, the best time is always now.

[00:27:06]But I think the thinking around it, um, my colleagues, is all the essence of ownership.

[00:27:12]And at a much broader level, we always say we exist to unlock human potential.

[00:27:18]And and and the easiest thing to do when we say we want to unlock human potential, we always think about it through the lens of our customers.

[00:27:26]The reality, we have people who make this How do we unlock their potential through We think this is one vehicle to do that.

[00:27:37]Number two, you spoke about the inequality Now, if you want to unlock If you truly want to unlock human potential, I think you've got to be able to hand and heart and make a meaningful meaningful contribution.

[00:27:51]distribute wealth value that your business is creating to the people that's helping create that.

[00:27:59]And number three, for me personally, we don't we don't run a business. We don't We don't have a policy where we try and separate personal and professional.

[00:28:09]We think they're exactly the same thing.

[00:28:11]We actually want our people to be the best versions of themselves outside of the office.

[00:28:16]And and and if you're the best father you can be, the best mother, the best brother the best sister you can be, you're going to be a really great employee.

[00:28:25]Now now, when you have that level of ownership, you come to work every day knowing that contribution I'm making is not only helping the business grow, but it's helping me and my family grow.

[00:28:39]And and we think that kind of tangible manifestation of contribution becomes be important in the way our people see themselves in South Africa.

[00:28:50]So, and and and so we super super excited uh about this program.

[00:28:57]Because all our people inside the business will have an additional incentive to see GoTime Bank become the most Yeah. Yeah, that alignment, but also, you know, it it it helps employees understand the value, the risks, the horizon of ownership, all of those things. And you know, I think Chazen, there's there's this broader conversation that we have in South Africa. We talk endlessly about transformation or ownership or participation in the economy and who actually feels like they have a stake a vested stake in the future. I do think employee ownership is probably one of the more practical ways just to make those ideas tangible inside high-growth companies.

[00:29:37]Um you know, if if it is possible. Now, I know GoTime is part of the broader Time Group story as you said, and it includes obviously operations beyond just South Africa and our specific issues. You've been backed by major global investors including the likes of New Bank. You've reached unicorn status after a series D funding round. I mean, how does that global platform change what South African customers get as you are on this rocket to the moon?

[00:30:05]Yeah, so so again, so like I said, the world's globalizing and I ain't joking now, and I think that's going to continue increasing.

[00:30:12]And I think as South Africans, I think we're going to start seeing ourselves as a much bigger part of that whole. And And we actually think that's important on a psychological level for our people.

[00:30:21]You know, as a country, what we definitely need to do is find ways very quickly, in my opinion, is to catalyze real economic growth on the ground. And I think we're a really a great example. I mean, the two countries we had banks operating in Philippines and South Africa um at a GDP per capita level, South Africa's GDP per capita is actually twice the size of that of the Philippines.

[00:30:46]Philippines has approximately twice the number of people.

[00:30:49]So, at a total economy size, same size.

[00:30:53]But, the Philippines is growing at around 6%.

[00:30:57]And when you in that country, you can actually feel and see that economic growth on the streets of the country.

[00:31:05]All right? And I when I'm there, I'm like, "Geez, this is energy and you get this get this feeling of hope and you can see it Now, I can't help but think when South Africa starts growing at 3, 4%.

[00:31:23]What that actually means for our people and how that manifests on the streets of our country.

[00:31:28]Now, the story we're trying to build, the story we're telling about this we're hoping is just one ingredient of a catalyst to accelerate what South Africa can and become.

[00:31:41]Now, the more we see ourselves as individual level, the more we see ourselves as active participants in the world is I think all these small little things start becoming incremental benefits to how we operate.

[00:31:56]And that's why again with the rebrand with being quality proudly I can still say today being the biggest part of of the Discovery's global story today still.

[00:32:06]Hell, we carry massive responsibility in executing and executing that strategy. You know, and and and ultimately when it's all said and done, what actually happens being in the business today, this business will not be around forever, my hope.

[00:32:20]Is that we'd want to look back and say the contribution we've made has made a meaningful difference to the lives of ordinary South Africans.

[00:32:29]And ultimately that would be success for me.

[00:32:32]No, I mean and it's huge and I think you know, I I speaking to David Buckham of Monocle Solutions recently. He wants to do a study on the economic impact of the banking and financial services sector on the South African economy. It is one of our bright spot, broadly speaking, and and has continued to grow and punch above its weight at a global level. And I think what what you've achieved at GoTime Bank is an example of that. Now growing into the high-growth Philippines and elsewhere. I hope we can get to that 3-4% in the next few years and and actually see that change on the streets, Caslin. But it's been great chatting to you here on Business Talk and hearing a little bit more about the rebrand and the strategy and and the ongoing evolution of one of South Africa's great digital banks here on Business Talk. Thanks for your time.

[00:33:23]Thanks for having us, Michael.

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