Why the "Moral Arc of the Universe" is Failing Us

追加: 2026-05-12

[00:00:01]Hey everybody, welcome to the Czech show where a couple friends hang out on their lunch break and threaten each other and talk about life under ascendant fascism.

[00:00:10]Daniel Moody, it's good to see you. I I I broke the news to you before we started. I'm going to go ahead and let other people know.

[00:00:18]>> I broke down. I bought a tripod.

[00:00:21]>> He's a professional content creator, folks.

[00:00:26]>> Hold on. No, I can't. No, you can't say that type of [ __ ] to me. I uh for those who don't know, I my original setup I told you about this and you were horrified.

[00:00:36]>> I just didn't understand.

[00:00:38]>> Well, I'll tell you a lot of the people who care about me don't understand the [ __ ] I do. So, I I'll say that I was using two books and like an old tripod that wasn't built for an iPhone, and I was using duct tape.

[00:00:53]>> So, you would have to duct tape it every time? every single time I would have to duct tape it together.

[00:00:58]>> Wow.

[00:00:59]>> And then like I ran out of duct tape.

[00:01:02]>> So that's why we're now living in the 21st century.

[00:01:07]>> I love this for you.

[00:01:08]>> It's honestly I'm impressed that you've always had the same look though and you were using duct tape. It's like it didn't look different every time.

[00:01:19]>> You can take the boy out of Green County, but you can't take Green County out of the boy. This is this is the who's your life. You're welcome to it.

[00:01:26]Danielle, how you doing, friend?

[00:01:28]>> You know, I I will say this. The end of last week was incredibly hard.

[00:01:36]>> Yeah.

[00:01:36]>> I think that uh following the Supreme Court's gutting of the Voting Rights Act, I felt like I had been just hollowed out.

[00:01:47]>> There was a point cuz you and I talk on Wednesdays. That happened on what?

[00:01:51]Thursday or Friday of last week?

[00:01:53]>> No, we were I think it happened on Tuesday because we came in talking about it.

[00:01:57]>> Oh, we came in talking about it. Yeah.

[00:01:59]So, it was like towards the end of that it the seriousness and the weight of that just kept rolling in on me like a slowm moving tsunami.

[00:02:14]And by the time that I got to the end of the week, I literally had nothing left to give. I took Friday off. Um I usually do a show and I just I needed time to rebuild my energy and to rest and that's what I did all weekend. Um spent time with family, friends, rested, was off of social media all weekend long. Um because the weight of what they are doing, the ability that they have to accomplish all of their goals >> and the fact that Democrats are goalless, feckless, strategyless, >> worthless, >> um spineless, like >> is the reason why we're here. And so what what came up for me though, Jared, is the amount of black people that died for the right to vote. The amount of black people that were beaten. The amount of black people that were dehumanized to get us to be a fully functioning democracy. And to have that 70 years, 60 year plus later rolled back, taken away, stripped away as if I just felt I felt like a failure. I felt like we have failed this country. I felt like I failed my ancestors who sacrificed so much so that I could be here in conversation with you living the life that I live. And I said, and they said, "Be vigilant.

[00:03:59]Don't take your eye off the ball.

[00:04:02]Progress doesn't keep moving. You have to keep moving it." And I just felt like we failed.

[00:04:09]>> That is such a relatable feeling, and I'm glad that you you put it forward like that. One of the things that I've been sitting with and really really wrestling with is the weight of sacrifice of of of you know as someone who studies history. One of the wildest things for me is when you actually look at it, it becomes so abundantly clear what a blip on the radar human progress is.

[00:04:40]like how like you know people the Supreme Court is the one that gets me the most. It was created specifically to be a backs stop for white wealthy men to control democracy because people don't people don't like to sit with this but the founders didn't like democracy. like they thought it was incredibly dangerous and they spent more time talking about how to tamp down democracy as a threat of tyranny than they did of tyrants.

[00:05:10]>> Like they were much more worried about what we would do if we were allowed to, you know, have have voting and uh representation.

[00:05:19]>> And people say, "Oh, this isn't what the Supreme Court's for." And it's like, "No, you had basically one liberal court in the entire history of the court."

[00:05:26]>> Of the court. Yeah.

[00:05:27]>> Of the entire history of the court.

[00:05:29]Yeah.

[00:05:29]>> So, everybody sort of looks at this and there is a thing. We talk a lot Danielle about American privilege. We talk a lot about being shielded from what empire does and the pain that it causes and the blood that it sheds.

[00:05:42]>> We also have a privilege that we have grown up in a time where many people have taken progress for granted.

[00:05:49]>> They believe that in the exact same way.

[00:05:51]It's the other side of the coin, right?

[00:05:54]The idea that the moral arc of history bends towards justice. The idea that uh that is the same as believing that the American dream and meritocracy were real. The idea that somehow or another this thing was just the normal state of of being and it was just going to continue and continue and continue.

[00:06:11]Meanwhile, how many black people have been [ __ ] killed and enslaved and used? How many immigrants have been killed and enslaved and used? How many poor people have been killed and enslaved and abused? How many [ __ ] labor unions had to literally fight wars with the United States of America and corporations? How many black people had to be lynched? How many black people had to to march and get just absolutely beaten and killed? How many women How many women and we're not even talking about suffragettes, Danielle.

[00:06:52]We're talking about women who were kept as indentured servants in their own home, who were raped and beaten and murdered and and you couldn't even get a credit card until recently as a woman.

[00:07:08]>> People don't people don't >> they don't point you. It was 1973.

[00:07:14]>> There it is.

[00:07:15]>> 19 like I want people to sit with that.

[00:07:18]>> Yep.

[00:07:19]>> Right. 1973 is when an American woman was able to get a credit card, be financially independent without the signature of her husband or her father.

[00:07:32]1973 >> Mhm. 1973.

[00:07:38]1973.

[00:07:39]And the entire reason that I bring this up is that it's not to shame us because we can feel shame, you know, and and by the way, shame, I think, is useful data.

[00:07:51]It tells us somewhere that we can be different and somewhere where our values or actions or lives don't necessarily align. Here's the thing about this. I think about it. I think about my grandparents. I think about my great-grandparents. I think my dad my d my dad died at 59.

[00:08:10]I have I have family members who died in their 40s. People who were as old as me who drop dead from heart attacks. I think about my family that they their backs are broken by their work.

[00:08:23]>> You know, I think about all of that. And you know what that tells me?

[00:08:27]>> In my best days, it makes me feel shame.

[00:08:30]It makes me feel grief. on my best days.

[00:08:32]It makes me feel a responsibility to [ __ ] fight for all of the people who fought for us before us.

[00:08:38]>> That's what it does. Because that that their sacrifice >> and their pain and their righteous indignation about the way things are, it deserves us to pay them respect and to pay them respect and kind by carrying on that work.

[00:08:54]>> That is so true. And I think that the word shame and the weight that that word and feeling carries is something that's really important to investigate.

[00:09:08]I think that that is what I felt last week. I felt shame. I felt shame at the idea that I was so naive to believe that what we were dealing with was what Martin Luther King referred to as the moral arc of the universe.

[00:09:29]It I actually don't believe it's an arc.

[00:09:32]An arc would mean that we are going over right rather than around and through. I actually think that it is probably a jagged unpaved road that we are digging through a mountain side.

[00:09:47]>> Yeah.

[00:09:48]>> Right. Like that's the moral universe.

[00:09:50]It is consistently digging, chiseling through the calcification of white supremacy, of patriarchy. And every time that we think that we have formed a road, right, they come over and they roll the boulders right back to where they were. And that's what I felt like.

[00:10:12]I felt, you know, there was a I I'll never forget this and I and I I say this I I'll say this small story because it again highlights the naive that I had during the Obama years.

[00:10:30]I had the privilege of going to the White House so many times, right?

[00:10:35]Working, speaking, you know, going to events, etc. I'm living in Washington DC. I'm working for various organizations, uh, you know, leading mo, you know, a voice on national, uh, uh, voice and advocate on movements such as LGBTQ equality, marriage equality, etc. And I can remember us group of diverse activists, advocates, policy makers in the Obama White House really high on our own supply. Really feeling the joy like we were our ancestors dreams as the shirts and the slogan say that we had arrived.

[00:11:20]>> Yeah.

[00:11:21]>> Right. and not recognizing that what we were actually entering was the most perilous moment of American history.

[00:11:33]Because the moment that we reached even the idea of a multi-racial democracy, >> they came in and snatched it all back and then some.

[00:11:47]>> Yeah.

[00:11:48]>> To prove their power, to prove their point. And I did I Nicole just said in the chat, I called it the glitch in white supremacy's matrix.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah.

[00:11:58]>> Right. Obama's eight years was the glitch that we could see something other than what they had filtered and told us was possible. And because of that, we should have been more vigilant, more guarded, more strategic, because we should have known they were [ __ ] coming for everything that we had gained in that moment. That they weren't just going to rest in the margins. They weren't just going to rest and say, "Oh, let these black people, let these people of color, let these queer people, these Muslims, these Jewish people, let them have this place that they believe they've laid claim to."

[00:12:43]And so it was that moment. If I could ever go back, right, get in the time machine or jump on the Delorean as as Waj always says, and go back, it would be to then to 2008 and be like, we're going to get this moment and it's either going to be the blip of reconstruction that lasted for 8 to 12 years or it is going to have the stamp of generational change. But we're going to need to decide to do some serious work and not just celebrate. You know, I I'm I'm so glad we're talking about this because I I think about the Obama presidency like Tulsa before the Tulsa race riots.

[00:13:28]>> Yeah. in black to much like what has happened around this country, they create something of their own and to build up some sort of of even a even a modeicum of power because whatever you want to say about Obama in terms of what he made our our politics feel like, he was completely and utterly constrained by capitalism in our politics. Like it was pretty incredible how he got in and was basically like there's only so much that I can do with this.

[00:13:57]>> Yeah. which you know some presidents go in and they bend the system to their power and others are like I don't know what to do I'm here you know Democrat it's weird how Democrats are mostly the ones who end up in that situation isn't it so and then of course what happens in any one of those things and and Danielle one of the the things that history gets wrong like you talked about reconstruction people treat that as if like oh black people were being so abused in that time period like they really need help black people were incredibly political politically competent. The moment that they got out of slavery, they they were instantly on ready to go. That's why Jim Crow happened. That's why >> 100%.

[00:14:42]>> It wasn't because they they were floundering and they were struggling and they wanted to like really put their boot on their neck. No, they they were great at it.

[00:14:49]>> They were thriving.

[00:14:51]>> They thrived. And that's something that gets lost in all of this. It is the thing that that people need to understand is that glitches as you're calling them. They're not capitalist and white supremacist. They don't acknowledge defeat. They don't see this as, "Oh my god, you reached the top of the mountain. I guess we're going to have to live like this." No, they will kill you. They will burn you. They will hang you. They will change every single rule. In fact, they will do it in such a way it it it's it's it's almost as if the abuse of it is that they're able to do it and they're able to look at you and be like, "I can't believe you thought that this was going to work."

[00:15:34]You know, like a >> a cruelty. It's almost like in one of those old movies where like the villain you the hero's sitting there with their hands like they're hanging by their fingernails and the villain's just looking at them and smiling. That's what this is. And the other side of this that I want to bring up, I was a I was in academia during the Obama presidency.

[00:15:56]And so as a result, I was around a lot of white liberals. Obviously, >> I I know that's a shock to everybody, but I was around a lot of white liberals in academia.

[00:16:06]>> And Danielle, you know what I noticed during the Obama years? one, it was um obviously um the white liberals loved Obama and they loved Obama because he made them feel like >> they weren't racist >> like they weren't and at the same time I think the relief within white liberalom it wasn't just that there was a black president because like that that wasn't really their goal you know he reflected how good they were because They uh one of the most brilliant lines of all time was uh Bradley Woodford in uh Get Out where he said, "I would have voted for him a third time." Right? That that's it's the perfect perfect example of white liberal.

[00:16:54]Obama gave them permission to believe that they didn't have to do anything else.

[00:17:02]Nothing else.

[00:17:04]You're going to brunch.

[00:17:06]>> You're going to brunch. What else do you have to do? There's a black president.

[00:17:11]That's all you need to do. You don't even need to do anything about racism anymore. You don't you and and the funniest thing about this is that the John Roberts argument for getting rid of the Voting Rights Act >> was Barack Obama's presidency.

[00:17:25]>> Was Barack Obama's presidency. And guess what? That's what white liberals believe, too.

[00:17:30]>> Yep.

[00:17:31]>> Racism. We're postracial. Wasn't that the phrase that they all wanted to adapt and celebrate and hold were post-racial?

[00:17:40]>> Listen, one of my favorites of all time, Tanahesi Coats, who keeps it [ __ ] real constantly. What was his argument during the Obama presidency? Hey, maybe it's time to start talking about reparations and wealth redistribution.

[00:17:52]Oh, I I don't I I that's a little I I I don't know about that. Oh, that's a little too extreme, right? Oh, they'll have them on like the Daily Show and the Daily Show is like, "Oh, these are interesting ideas, but I don't know about that." Notice, by the way, how much unpaid labor was there? How how much economic like being held down. They do not want to actually change [ __ ] >> No, >> they want to feel like they >> correct.

[00:18:22]>> They want to feel like they're not racist. They want to feel like they're not homophobic and transphobic. They want to feel like they're not classist.

[00:18:31]But when the rubber meets the road, Obama made them feel [ __ ] great because that was it. We've reached it.

[00:18:38]Okay, cool. Completed. We don't have to change anything else. Everything will be great. And meanwhile, that brings us to where we are now, which is things obviously have to change and dealing with a lot of those people who watch civil rights and were worried about Martin Luther King's extremism.

[00:18:55]>> They're just a new version of that.

[00:18:58]I just, you know, it's the laziness that gets me, right?

[00:19:05]Like, let's talk about the laziness because it is this idea, >> Pierre, it is this idea, >> right? Pier is very he's very militant.

[00:19:18]Um, but it is this idea that like you want people want to live in a society that they don't actually have to think about. Absolutely.

[00:19:28]>> Like they want to live in this instantaneous microwavable society that I don't have to think about that everything just comes easy. And what Obama provided to all of the great points that you made was that ease, right? They didn't have they they weren't the ones that were beaten and brutalized in the streets. They didn't give their blood for that presidency.

[00:19:53]They didn't fight for voting rights.

[00:19:55]They didn't fight for women's rights.

[00:19:57]They didn't fight for any of those things. They just got to literally sit under the shade of the trees that were planted that black people hung from.

[00:20:07]They they just got to be right and they thought and I include myself in that thought that that was it. Progress is about forward movement. It's never about regression.

[00:20:21]Right? Because the way that we tell our history in this country is always about forward movement. Never about the consistent and strategic white lash that happens so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves with this thing called democracy. Y >> okay so you know when we look at where we are now it is because in America particularly we want to be able to just live our lives free of care thought intention and action that is truly the American way right and so I don't need to get my hands dirty I live in a time when I can hide hire other people to get their hands dirty. I can hire other people to do the things that I don't want to do so that I can just be. And as we were just living our lives, skipping around in those Obama years, John Roberts and the white supremists in the federalist society were plotting and planning how to ensure that that glitch in the Matrix was only going to happen once and that they were going to institute a Jim Crow 2.0 0 that was going to preserve their supremacy for the next 100 years. You are watching as they are redrawing maps, cancelling elections midway through to redraw maps now to draw out black people to dissolve black districts. That's exactly what happened post reconstruction. There were several black congressional leaders, right, that were in Congress.

[00:22:19]>> No.

[00:22:21]>> And as soon as Jim Crow happened and they were able to redraw those maps, it wasn't for 60 70 years that now we get to this critical place where the Congressional Black Caucus has well over 40 some odd members.

[00:22:37]Now, they looked at that and they said, "Mm- they got too much power. They got too much lip."

[00:22:44]>> And and and by the way, that is an opinion that's also held by the rank and file of the Democratic party.

[00:22:51]>> You're talking about the Congressional Black Caucus. Isn't it weird that the the higher up higher ranking Democrats, they have worse things to say about how the the the Congressional Black Caucus needs to be quieter, needs to be more respectful, have more decorum. I mean, they they walked out of the State of the Union, they had more to say about Al Green than they did about Donald Trump, >> right?

[00:23:13]>> It's incredible how that works, isn't it? Yeah. It's it's really it's really weird how like all of these things they they sort of work hand in hand. And you know, it's it's funny bringing up John Roberts. John Roberts is a liberal. Like he's literally a white liberal. And by that I mean by the larger sense. He goes to bed at night thinking that he is gatekeeping American liberal representative democracy. And meanwhile, you know, others are much more ideologically pure when it comes to this and they know what they're doing. But what is what is happening? the financial incentives are and have always been towards keeping groups of people down in order to maintain artificial scarcity and procarity in order to hold power. So what's happening right now is I think such a transformative moment and there are questions to be asked. So for instance, you said a second ago you can hire people to do things. Well, not maybe for very long. Well, right.

[00:24:17]>> And not just because you wouldn't be able to afford it, but because um I don't know if people know this, but uh before gas was rising up over $5 a gallon, uh Door Dashers weren't making that much.

[00:24:32]They weren't. Also, by the way, you know, I I I man all day long I just watch delivery trucks all [ __ ] day long. And by the way, those delivery trucks, Danielle, they're just dropping off same day orders just all [ __ ] day. Sometimes multiple to a place. That ain't going to keep [ __ ] happening.

[00:24:56]>> That because what do those trucks run on?

[00:24:59]>> Oh, it turns out that uh energy is is pretty when this [ __ ] works. Oh, by the way, Danielle, they're very close to coming up with a solution for this war.

[00:25:07]It's it's just right around the corner.

[00:25:09]I I I know you've heard that before, but it's we're just right there. We're right there. We're just we're dotting the eyes, crossing the tees, you know? We got a few, you know, cues to go over here. But that [ __ ] that that comfort that that that white middle class thing now that it's evaporating, and I it's funny you you brought up the fact that they don't want to do anything, man.

[00:25:32]They get mad at certain things. They'll show up to meetings for certain things.

[00:25:38]They'll come to meetings if you're planning on building housing in a certain place.

[00:25:44]>> Yeah.

[00:25:44]>> They'll come and show up if you're planning on, I don't know, changing the name of the local mascot for the high school team or the college team. Listen, we're just paying tribute to Native Americans. That's that's that's what this is about. It's about tradition. My I went to this school and and we we cheered as a white person dressed up in a headdress and all of that. like why are we doing this? You'll notice there are certain things that that prick them to the point where they'll show up and they'll make noise. It's also really weird. They're always telling us like we want this, we want this, but now's not the time. We don't have the do it right now, which to me because I speak fluent [ __ ] means it's not actually a priority, but I think I should say out loud it is. I don't want to be extra.

[00:26:32]>> Hurry up and wait. And you know what I'm writing right now, Danielle? It's really interesting, isn't it, that places like the New York Times, they're bringing in Hassan [ __ ] to talk about shoplifting so they can get hits all day long on that by nervous, anxious liberals. But meanwhile, they're sitting down for a really, really good discussion with Tucker Carlson. They went to Maine.

[00:26:58]>> They went and sat down at his kitchen table. they want to understand him more, right? And and they'll ask him qu he'll bring up Israel and then they'll change the subject real quick because they don't want to actually deal with what's going on here because they also don't want a critique of Israel out there at the same time. They're trying to mold him into their good, perfect boy. And why? Because the same [ __ ] people who would look you in the eye and say hope and change and they'd wear the Obama rising sun logo and would say I would have voted for Obama a third time. You know what they're doing? They got a little appetizer. They got a little anytime a little appetizer that they're trying they're trying on the fascist.

[00:27:41]>> Yeah.

[00:27:41]>> They're seeing how it looks. They're putting it on in the the changing room and looking in the mirror and they're like, "Ah, I mean, it makes me a little bit uncomfortable, but it's kind of better than the alternative, which is black people getting louder, brown people getting louder, immigrants, women, gays, trans, poor people getting louder. That's what they're afraid of.

[00:28:03]And they're comfortable if those people are put in their place. And quite frankly, some of them don't know it yet, but unconsciously, even as they're screaming at the Supreme Court, they're actually pretty happy about it because they unconsciously know that white supremacist and fascist are going to be the people who give them the actual representation that they want, but they can't actually admit that they want >> straight facts on facts on facts. I think that when people have said Democrats and Republicans, two sides of the same coin, I think that we are absolutely experiencing that reality in real time right now because they are two sides of the same coin and what they care about, what they hold dear is white supremacy. Now, for a moment, I want us to think about the reasons why they fear black presence and power. And the reason why white liberals as well as white conservatives who are on the same spectrum of white supremacy and patriarchy, the reason why they fear black presence in power is because they fear that then they'll turn into the minority and they'll be treated just as poorly as they treated those people.

[00:29:33]that they gaslight into saying, "I don't know why you need these special rights or entitlements," as Clarence Thomas said, because you know, everything is fine for you. It's the easy test. Put together a room of white people, ask them how many of them would like to be black >> for a day, for a week, and you will see no hands go up in the air. Well, why is that? Because I thought that everything was hunky dory. I thought that everyone was treated the same because you know good goddamn well that you are not treating people the same that racism and discrimination and oppression run through your veins.

[00:30:20]And see the thing is and this is why I believe that this country, this empire needs to fall. And it is because white people believe that everyone thinks and operates the same way that they do.

[00:30:38]>> Yes.

[00:30:39]>> With a mindset based on abuse and extraction.

[00:30:44]And the funny thing is is that until they introduced their colonist imperialist ways on the rest of the world, that's actually not how other nations were working. As a matter of fact, hold on. There were no [ __ ] nations. There were no borders, right?

[00:31:06]As a matter of fact, people were just coexisting with the land and with each other. I'm not saying that there wasn't tribalism and this that and the other thing, but what I'm saying is that white colonist imperialists introduced borders, nation states, mine, yours, I take, you give, they introduced that entire way of thinking, the beginning of capitalism and extraction. And so their belief system is that if black people and brown people were to get power and then assert their presence that then all the things that they stole, hoarded, and took would then be taken away from them.

[00:31:56]Right? Except as we have said so many times over, you are lucky that what black people want is equality and not [ __ ] revenge, right? Because in the in my heart of hearts last week, all I thought about was revenge. All I thought about is like, you know what? I am tired of trying to work with and work around and figure out these laws and these systems that every single time we get we meet you [ __ ] change, right? So why keep playing, right? Because y'all keep flipping the [ __ ] table. So, at the end of the day, it is we talk about self-examination and consciousness um and the understanding of how society works. And I believe that white liberals and conservatives are two sides of the same coin that absolutely know how to [ __ ] gaslight and manipulate the people for the same ends. one just wears a [ __ ] uh Black Lives Matter hat and a pride t-shirt, but does the same [ __ ] [ __ ] that the one that's wearing the Confederate flag waving, you know, and the MAGA hat does the same goddamn thing. It's the same person in a different [ __ ] outfit.

[00:33:18]>> And by the way, are so [ __ ] self-righteous about how better they are ethically and morally. Oh my god, it's incredible. You You nailed it. And I want to add three things to this that I I I I'm itching to get to. First things first, when I wrote The Midnight Kingdom and I learned the history of white supremacy, I I was under that old mindset. It's like, well, I mean, you know, the the Anglo Europeans, colonizers, they just had better technology, Danielle. They just had better strategy. Do you know what their superpower was? It wasn't being white. It was being [ __ ] liars.

[00:33:56]It was more savage than the supposed savages that they were murdering and enslaving. They came their main innovation. It wasn't weaponry. It wasn't strategy. It was creating systems of oppression and extraction and destroying people's realities and lives.

[00:34:17]What they did is they spun a nightmare that we're still trying to extract ourselves out of. We're still trying to get out of second point. You know what I'm [ __ ] sick of, Danielle? I'm sick of posts and and articles and politicians saying, "Oh my god, the damage Donald Trump has done to America's leadership in the world.

[00:34:44]Spare me with that [ __ ] shit."

[00:34:47]America's leadership in the world.

[00:34:52]>> Mhm.

[00:34:53]You're you're talking about leadership that enslaves children.

[00:34:59]>> Yeah.

[00:35:00]>> You're talking about leadership that that cozies up with dictators everywhere they can find them to tame the savages because some people Danielle, they're not fit for democratic representation.

[00:35:13]You know, they're that's the problem in Palestine. They they're not able to handle >> they couldn't rule themselves. They they couldn't make decisions.

[00:35:24]Oh my god, these people are incompatible with democracy. Isn't it weird how everybody who has something that we want is incompatible >> incompatible with democracy?

[00:35:34]>> And Danielle, isn't it weird, by the way, that that's what white supremacists say on the far right, but that's what also liberals are saying whenever they're in their international bodies.

[00:35:44]Well, we really just want to help this country. Do you? Or do you? That's why we have 800 bases around the world.

[00:35:52]>> Or do you want to help yourself resources and their labor? And by the way, I'm speaking about every [ __ ] neoliberal piece of [ __ ] that runs the Democratic party and is in all of their think tanks and their institutes. Oh, we just really want to help them, Danielle.

[00:36:10]We want to help them. You want to help them? Leave them the [ __ ] alone.

[00:36:14]>> Alone.

[00:36:15]>> Leave them alone.

[00:36:18]And that brings me to my third and final point, Danielle. And I'm saying this, maybe there are people who are watching this and maybe they're uncomfortable with this conversation. Maybe they're uncomfortable with our past conversations in which we talk talked about our increasing revolutionary energy. I I I'm not speaking for all modern revolutionary people, but I would like to offer you a message. If you're uncomfortable with this, we'll make you a deal. I know in your mind that you're imagining some sort of a retaliatory, revolutionary bloodletting. We'll make you a deal. We'll create a sustainable, more ethical, more moral, better world that you can live in and your life will increase by many, many magnitudes. Your children, your grandchildren, your family, your neighbors, your lives will increase. And here's the deal. Let us [ __ ] punish the worst.

[00:37:18]Let us perp walk these [ __ ] Let us send them to the HEG. Let us [ __ ] get rid of the child rapists, the serial murderers, the [ __ ] fascists, and we will create a world that will be better to live in. It's not that fantasy you have in your head.

[00:37:40]That's the racist authoritarian painting you a nightmare.

[00:37:43]>> Come on.

[00:37:45]>> That's what that is. You are your own jailer at this point. Give up on incarcerates.

[00:37:53]You got to see them as political prisons. Stop looking over here and telling vulnerable people they need to be quiet. The only thing you have to gain is everything and all that is going to happen is we'll make a better world and we will hold the worst of us accountable. That's it.

[00:38:09]But here's the thing. Folks don't want accountability.

[00:38:14]>> Don't want >> They don't want accountability because the only thing that we're saying, right?

[00:38:20]>> Learn, understand, right? Understand how we got here. This isn't just about Donald Trump. You are tripping. If you think that this is just about Donald Trump, Donald Trump is an avatar for all of the things that white patriarch patriarchal supremacy imperialist society has done over the course of America's 250 years.

[00:38:45]>> There's been a lot Trump's, >> right? But there have been so many. And so it's like again when people get focused on just this one person, this one administration, you miss the lessons that are being taught right now. This [ __ ] has been going on.

[00:39:07]This [ __ ] has been going on for centuries, right? They've just been brazen more brazen about it because they are in the who gonna check me stage of their war on like the world.

[00:39:22]>> They're heat check.

[00:39:23]>> This is Yeah. This has been this this has been this is extractive oppressive body like you say what would happen if we left people alone? You know what would happen? The UK would have no [ __ ] money.

[00:39:38]Nothing.

[00:39:39]>> Everything they The UK would have nothing.

[00:39:42]>> They would have nothing.

[00:39:43]>> Nothing. They make nothing.

[00:39:46]>> Everything they get is from extraction.

[00:39:50]>> Like they got no oil. They got no [ __ ] food. They got nothing.

[00:39:54]>> They don't even have anything to put in their own [ __ ] museums.

[00:39:57]>> They got nothing. Everything would be empty. And that's the [ __ ] that like people really need to understand. It's like when you look at these na these quote unquote wealthy nations without their imperialist footprint and the [ __ ] the [ __ ] >> doctrines that they put together that allowed African nations to get their independence in the 1960s and the 1970s.

[00:40:25]Folks, they rope these people into indentured servitude where they are still paying their enslavers for quasi freedom.

[00:40:36]Look it up. Like if they did not have that, if they did not have the debt that they were able to collect from from these nations, they'd all be bankrupt.

[00:40:48]I think all the time. Danielle, when I when I was writing the book and I actually studied what happened with the Haitian Revolution, I had to go for a walk.

[00:40:59]Let me tell you, let me tell let because I will say this when I learned about the Haitian Revolution because I will tell you that as a Jamaican, the way that white supremacy and colonization turned Caribbean nations and African nations against Haiti, right? Made us made us look down upon Haiti. And now you see that Haiti is the reason why we all exist and breathe quote unquote liberated air.

[00:41:32]>> Danielle, for people who don't know, the the the slaves of Haiti rose up and and and they threw off their chains and they were so good at it. They were so unbelievably good at it. People don't know this. For people who don't know, you know how the Nazis like started causing a problem and all of the quote unquote civilized nations of the world fought against them. By the way, they didn't fight against them because of the genocide. They fought against them because they were trying to take their colonial holdings. That was the problem.

[00:42:04]You know how everybody got together and they fought them? Every major world power got together to fight the Haitians. And by the way, what was the Haitian sin, Danielle? It was taking revolutionary energy from America and France seriously. The black people thought they took the words to be literal. All men are created equal. Oh, [ __ ] great.

[00:42:30]The time is here. Oh, by the way, for people who don't know, that's what happened in Vietnam, too. In Vietnam, they were like, "Oh my god, this the words of Thomas Jefferson are beautiful.

[00:42:40]we need to do something about this. They fought every major power in the world and they beat them >> and since then they have been what?

[00:42:54]Beaten down economically. Their leaders have been murdered and they have not been able to be sovereign because of the audacity.

[00:43:04]>> What happened was they weren't able to conquer them militarily. So they rolled out the worst type of economic terrorism. And Danielle, I'm going to bring this around to what we've been talking about.

[00:43:18]And these [ __ ] liberals, these [ __ ] Hillary Clinton getting on [ __ ] camera. They just can't get it together.

[00:43:29]I just I I don't know. You pieces of [ __ ] trash. You You know what? It's a funny thing, too, Danielle. It's very very funny. When I was studying the Confederacy, I read all of their journals and their magazines. They don't talk about those in school, you know, because that would be really upsetting.

[00:43:47]You know what was at the heart of it, which is really scary. We always watch these movies and we we see slaveholders who are just like beating, you know, their slaves and all of that. They're just like these types. The way they slept at night is they thought they were being parental. They thought that the people that they enslaved weren't capable of living in the world. They were protected.

[00:44:08]>> That's what their That's what their Bible Let's bring it back, Jared. That's what their Bible told them.

[00:44:16]>> And guess what, Danielle? Isn't it interesting >> that supposed liberals who Oh my god, they're so They love black people and they want to help black people, but black people just can't get together. I don't know. Well, they've got things like, I don't know, Sister Soldier. They just can't get it together yet.

[00:44:36]>> They just need help. They just need help. If you want to help people, leave them the >> Leave them the [ __ ] alone, >> man. like, and I'll just say this because I know we I I I often um uh go after mainstream corporate media, but it was like four years ago now that the New York Times did an extraordinary expose on Haiti. Like it was it it was honestly it was like I I was like who like the New York Times allowed this to come out like the truth about the Haitian Revolution about why Haiti is the way that it is and it was coming uh on the heels of yet another ouster of another prime minister and the rise of the gangs and all of these things. And I say this because my girlfriend is Haitian, my brother-in-law is Haitian, my uncle is Haitian, right?

[00:45:41]Like, and it is to learn about again.

[00:45:46]And I and I I people always ask me, Danielle, you know, I'm a a white progressive woman or man, like, what should I be reading? You know what?

[00:45:56]Study up on the Haitian Revolution.

[00:45:58]>> Yep. study up on the Haitian Revolution so you can free yourselves from the idea that Haitians don't know how to rule themselves to exist. Understand the ways in which the United States and France and the UK have consistently murdered their murdered the oppositions, taken away their ability to farm, killed their [ __ ] pigs. Like just I mean like like just just learn about that and you will understand so much more.

[00:46:38]>> And by the way, can I add on to that because I I'm [ __ ] fired up. I'm so glad we're having this goddamn conversation. Okay, I want to add one more thing. Read about Haiti. Read about decolonization struggles. Read about the movements that were created in this country. the actual movements that that created change. Basically, everything that you've been told that like some great white president created was building off of actual grassroots individual movements. Everything from progressivism to the New Deal to uh suffrage to civil rights to gay rights, trans rights, all of study the actual movements. And let me add one caveat, Danielle, because that's the secret.

[00:47:23]That's the road. And and personally, that's what I'm studying to try and help people. Guess what? Do it. Don't [ __ ] post about it online.

[00:47:35]The white world disease is having to be performative. And guess what you're doing when you do all that? You're actually distilling the actual revolutionary energy of what you're doing. Because we have been taught to perform goodness and ethics and morality. And guess what? If that's what you're doing, you're not doing it to change the world. You're doing it to change the perception of you. And you have fallen into it >> of modern liberalism that has been perverted and twisted and turned into a commodity by guess what? It's our old friend, everybody. [ __ ] capitalism and as a result it's not going to change anything. Period.

[00:48:23]>> I mean, you know, it's always so incredible because I never know where these conversations are going to go and I want folks to understand that like Jared and I plan nothing.

[00:48:36]>> Nothing.

[00:48:38]>> We literally just turned the camera on.

[00:48:41]But I think that I think that what is important right now I guess you know what I will say is that I am so much more revolutionaryminded than I think I've ever I think I'm almost going back to my teenage years when I was just learning about the Black Panthers and I was learning about like black empowerment, black revolutionaries. ies, etc. And I was, and I and I say this because I grew up in a majority white suburb in New York on Long Island. And so I had to teach myself, right? Like every project that was given to me by English teachers, history teachers was always like, "What black [ __ ] can I learn today and force them to have to read?" like that was always my mentality. How can I teach my white teachers, right?

[00:49:43]>> Um, and teach myself at the same time.

[00:49:45]And so I was >> I was super revolutionary minded when I was young. Then I I became like, I don't know, a kind of like corporate [ __ ] gay that was just like, we'll assimilate, we'll do this, we'll do that, blah blah. And now here's my emotional arc, which is life. [ __ ] all of that cuz it doesn't matter. You play by the rules. You learn the rules. You follow them. You do. And they flip the table. So at some point you have to decide for yourself like how you're going to show up and be.

[00:50:24]>> I hear from people all the time and they're like, "Oh, I've been reading your your books and I've been like listening to your stuff for 10 years."

[00:50:31]like when did you get so radical? And I was like, how are you not?

[00:50:36]>> Like what?

[00:50:38]>> At this point, if you aren't possessed of of of revolutionary fervor, I think you're kind of doing it wrong.

[00:50:45]>> Like you're you're you're not treating this the way it deserves to be treated.

[00:50:51]There's no saving this. Like, and quite frankly, if you did save it, >> what part are you saving?

[00:50:59]>> What are Yeah. What are you doing at this point? Like it's like a you your boat sank and you hold on to one timber and you're like, "Oh, I've always loved this boat."

[00:51:10]Like, oh, >> so good.

[00:51:12]>> This boat's so good.

[00:51:14]Like, it's what what do you at this point? You're you're living in denial and delusion. Like, at this point, if you don't if you don't want to figure something out and change it, I I don't know what to tell you. I really don't.

[00:51:26]>> Yeah. I just I think that I think that I have had to change my perspective on what saving looks like.

[00:51:39]>> Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> And it is not this country. It is myself and the people that I deeply care about and the belief system that all empires fall.

[00:51:52]All empires fall.

[00:51:54]And what comes in its place does not have to be a replica of what fell but just a little bit lighter. Right? Like we can be radical in our thinking to dream bigger and to create something that is deeply possible and human focused, right? And it doesn't have to be a replica of what America was.

[00:52:20]>> And that thing's not going to be lighter.

[00:52:24]There's no way. There's no way that suddenly people are going to be like, "Yeah, you know, the entire American empire fell. I think it's time to maybe cut into Citizens United a little bit."

[00:52:34]Like that's not how this works.

[00:52:37]>> But that's what the when we sit around and folks talk about midterms. Like that's how it sounds.

[00:52:42]>> Danielle, people are talking about packing the Supreme Court and it's like Democrats can't even say that out loud.

[00:52:50]Democrats can't even say it took it took Joe Biden his entire term to even leak the rumor that he might think about adding a justice and then they couldn't even it's it's it's it's what it is.

[00:53:03]It's what it is. But I'm I'm glad to be on this journey with you. I'm glad that uh we're both feeling it.

[00:53:09]>> I've just everything I've recorded for the past week, I've been hot. I'm just being late >> because again because if you're not hot, if you're not angry and I mean like what I think revolution is and I know that we have to go but what I think that revolutionary thinking is and the the work to consistently try and decolonize our minds, right, and our spirits and our spaces is like strategic rage.

[00:53:35]That's what revolution that's what it means to be a revolutionary to me. It isn't just like to be hot and angry and just swirl around. It is to have strategic rage.

[00:53:47]>> Surrender, Dorothy.

[00:53:51]Just hand them over. Just hand them over. Hand them over. I want to say real fast before we go cuz uh the the project we're doing I think deserves this. You talked about like how you used to be or how you used to be in in public or whatever. You were actually the reason why I started to be more outspoken. It was when you guested on an episode of the Muckreak podcast. You and I like started getting hot, you know? We started the we started moving faster and I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] I can let it go.

[00:54:23]I can let it [ __ ] go." So that that was I remember that very specifically.

[00:54:28]That was that was a wonderful day for me where I was like, "No, I'm doing this different." So, I just want to thank you for that.

[00:54:34]Oh, Jared, you have no idea. Anytime I I remember guest hosting, guesting, and being a guest on on your podcast, and I remember getting off and saying to my girlfriend, "Oh my god, he's [ __ ] brilliant."

[00:54:51]>> Like, good lord.

[00:54:52]>> And I was, "No, I'm not going to stop because this is the truth. Why else would I do a show with him?" I was like I was like, "He's [ __ ] brilliant.

[00:55:03]Oh, I'm going to go and be somewhere in the dark now. All right. Thank you, Danielle. Good as always. You're too much. All right. Bye, everybody. Be good.

[00:55:13]>> Bye, everybody. See you next week.

[00:55:15]>> Good lord.