Sales success depends on understanding four levels of persuasion: (1) Features and benefits selling, where 99% of salespeople operate; (2) Behaviors, helping prospects see what actions lead to desired results; (3) Belief systems, changing what prospects think is true; and (4) Identity, the highest level where people act based on who they believe they are. The sale can be won or lost in the first minute, and salespeople must learn to listen to what prospects mean, not just what they say, to overcome objections and build genuine trust.
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75 Minutes of Sales Training That'll Explode Your Sales in 2026Añadido:
I always say the sale can be won or lost at hello. Like literally, you can win or lose a sale in like the first minute. I had six years where I made close to $3 million in commissions. I looked through everything, not even as a salesperson, but more as a psychologist. So, I went to school to become a psychologist. So, all we would ever learn about patients is how do you change their belief systems? How do you help them change their behaviors? And how do you how to form a new identity?
>> What would be the things they would want to undergo to really master?
>> First of all, I would say there's four levels of persuasion. There's selling.
That's where 99% of sales people sell, which isn't bad, but it's never going to get you at the highest level.
>> Today, I talked to Jeremy Miner, and between Jeremy and I, we both run sales training and recruiting companies. We do over a hundred million a year collectively. So, in this podcast, we break down all the best sales strategies we know. We talk about all the most common objections and how to handle them. We talk about the four levels of persuasion and so much more. So, enjoy the podcast.
>> I want to ask you a question. And probably nobody's ever asked you this and I've always wondered so >> in this had happened to been late 2019 I went through your sales training. It was right at it was right when I was in my >> you went through the 1.0 version.
>> I went through the 1.0 version and so I remember going through these initial modules.
>> Mhm.
>> And it was a lot about like it wasn't necessarily the sales training yet. what you were trying to do is really kind of sell everybody onto the paradigm shift and the big idea around your methodology of selling right and and nq and all that stuff. So you were talking about like the old way of doing it and the new way of doing it and you had like clearly a big idea unique mechanism and at that time like I was obviously my career was in sales but I was also very into direct response marketing >> and I was like >> I haven't even gotten to the sales training yet >> but this marketing like I call it a copy platform like your overarching messaging that everything else in your business your social your ads or whatever stems from I was like this copy platform is really good. I remember going through it and thinking I haven't even gotten to the sales training yet, but like this guy is literally like a direct response like he knows direct response.
>> It's just changing belief systems, right? So I went to school to become a psychologist. So all we would ever learn about patients is how do you change their belief systems? How do you help them change their behaviors? And how do you how to form a new identity?
>> Yeah. Literally all we were taught.
>> So So the and the way I kind of looked at what you were doing is basically there's something called a central marketing thesis. Now like Russell Brunson calls it I think the domino belief in sales. You can call it your sales thesis, whatever it is. But it's the one belief that if they believe to be true that whatever objections become irrelevant and they buy and then within that there's essentially like a belief ladder. So there's subbeliefs >> and there's basically your claims and your proof against those claims to where if this is true and then that is true and then this is true and also this is true, then the main conclusion is true.
And so that sounds like kind of like I said, I'm just I'm I'm I look through everything not even as a salesperson but more as a psychologist. Yes, >> sales second. But really, psychology is sales and sales is psychology with human nature. Once you get to the once you really start to learn how to sell, I always say there's four levels of persuasion.
>> NLP talks a little bit about this.
There's features and benefits selling.
So, it's like here's how the thing does this. Here's the benefits of XYZ.
>> It's kind of like spin selling a little bit.
>> Yeah. And that's I mean that's where 99% of sales people sell. Yeah. Features and benefits. Okay. Which isn't bad, but it's never going to get you the highest level. I would also argue a lot of sales people don't even do that.
>> Okay, that's okay. That's >> you're talking about like out of the sales people who do sales training, you know, who actually six figures >> in commissions, they're the ones selling features and benefits. Okay, valid point.
>> Then you have uh the next level is behaviors.
>> Like if I can start getting them to see what actions or behaviors people do that get XYZ result, they start to shift. The next level of that is belief systems. So like if I ever hear so I would say >> hold on this is really good. So with level two can you give me an example.
>> So let's say I mean it's going to depend on the industry. So like a behavior would be like um let's say if you're selling like a let's just say in the coaching space. Okay. So let's say if you're selling like an ROI offer like you're selling like business consulting to help scale a company. Okay. I can say, you know, after I get their goal, financial goal of what they want to have revenue this next year and what they want their profit margins to be once their operations, let's say, is fixed.
If that's what I do, I can say, so what actions does the man take >> that becomes the person who makes $2 million a year. So that is a behavior.
So I'm starting to shift him into the behaviors of the entrepreneur who does XYZ.
>> That makes sense. I never like labeled it that way, but I remember when I was selling, I would do a lot of times of like making a compare and contrast between this is who you say you want to be, but your actions are over here.
>> And so like the real question becomes is like when do you think it's a good time to align your actions with those words?
Because so far you're 1.0 version of yourself. So, I don't even want to like I don't The biggest thing with with getting them to with emotionally connecting with that other human being or whoever you're talking to is where they feel like you're not judging them because then they get defensive, but they feel like >> you're really concerned about the consequences if they don't change. I'm not concerned that you say you don't have the money because that that's just [ __ ] That's just a limiting belief that they have. But I'm concerned about the consequences for them if they don't come the money to change because I know what's going to happen if they don't.
And they can feel that I'm concerned about that consequence. And how do you how do you make sure that it doesn't come off judgmental?
>> That's that's a trick. It's it's all in your tonality.
>> That's what I was I knew I knew the answer before I asked the question. So, what does a tonality >> like staying on stage two with like the behavior thing and kind of like the actions?
>> How would a judgmental tonality sound versus let's say judgmental I'll say the same thing two different tones. So judgmental would be like well I mean what's the version of you now man? Man, I mean, the version of you now is you're living with your mom in your basement and you're making 10 grand a month.
Like, that's your version. So, what do you need to become to become the 2.0 version where you're making 50 grand a month, man?
>> Comes off a little bit judgmental >> and broy.
>> And a little bit broy. Yeah. But that's I mean, >> heard a lot of sales calls.
>> Lot of people do that.
>> Most people >> I've probably been guilty of that at times.
>> Most people do that because they don't they just don't know. So, I might say so so right now you're the 1.0 version of yourself that's still in your mom's basement making five grand a month. So, what do you need to do? What actions do you need to take right here, right now, today to become the man, the entrepreneur who now makes 50 grand a month? What actions do you need to take right now? So, just soften that tone a little bit. I'm saying the same words.
Yeah. But I'm softening the tone. And the way I like to think about that is uh I don't know if you use this term, but it's it conveys moral authority, which is basically like your your question is the frame of your question is coming across as if you're looking out for their own best interest. Yeah. Like >> so there's that alignment there to where you're kind of like some people call it like having a sales fiduciary type of responsibility almost.
>> Yeah. Like you care about them. like it all it is is like you're showing genuine empathy about their situation and the consequences if they don't change >> and they feel that and there's just more trust there obviously.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Moving on behaviors.
>> Yeah. Moving on to stage three which was beliefs.
>> Beliefs. This is a big one. Most sales people never get to beliefs.
>> A lot of people do what you did. They they don't really label it behavior.
They just say that because they've heard somebody do the track. But if you understand it, the psychology behind it, that means you can come up with like a track on the dime. You don't have to think about it. You know, you don't have these oneliners you hear from an IG or something. So beliefs are I'm always listening to the words they say and how they say them. That tells me everything I need to know about them. So I would say third principle in APQ is listen to what the prospect means, not just what they say. Those are two different things most of the time. So, if let's say if I ask them for some type of goal and let's stick to the ROI and they're like, "Yeah, uh, I want to make, you know, I I mean, I at least want to do 50,000 a month." So, I heard the word least. So, I understand that there's a certain belief system there that they're focused on the least. So when I go to close them, if I keep them in that belief system that the least thing they want, it's hard for me to build a huge gap. So I got to get them out of that way, that belief system. So I'm like, I might stop depending on if it's like if I'm selling to a huge company, it's going to be a little bit different how I approach this than if I'm selling to like a BTOC person. Okay. So I might stop and say, "So can I can I make a suggestion on a on a word that I just heard you say that could be holding us back sometimes?"
>> See, I'm like could be holding us back, not you back. Yeah.
>> I'm not going to accuse. And I'm really Yeah, sure. Go ahead. You said the least. Have you ever wonder Have you ever thought that when we focus on getting the least things in life, what do you typically get?
>> And they'll be the least. And you don't come across to me as the person who wants to get the least things in life.
Would I be right?
>> So, what do you really want to make?
>> Oh, that's good.
>> You see, I'm doing that.
>> Yeah. It's so interesting.
>> It's a belief overcome the belief about the least. And then now I'm changing.
Then I'm going into the identity. You don't seem like the person >> who wants to get the least things in life. That's an identity shift. Like negative identity.
>> Then I'm going to say, "So, what do you really want?"
>> So, there's a couple things with that.
Number one is I feel like cuz I it's funny cuz you label it so well and that's something that when they give a goal that's too low where you can tell like they're just not even confident in themselves. You kind of have to intervene to sort of reset. But I feel like when you do that you do a couple of things. Number one is >> they're like they internally I think when you would do that they're like first of all holy [ __ ] this guy's like really actually listening.
>> Like I can't just like I can't get anything past.
>> Yeah. they they can feel that you're very present. And I think for the rest of the conversation, it's one of those triggers to where >> it starts to force more honesty and candidness >> out of the rest of the conversation because they know like, >> "Oh, I can't get anything past this guy."
>> Trust you more.
>> Like they can kind of they're like, "This guy sees past the mask." Yeah.
It's it's like look, we always talked about this. Tony Robbins talks a lot about it, but like even in like psych 101, our professor be like every patient you ever meet's going to wear a mask when you talk to them? And it's like how do you get them to want to take the mask off and tell you what's really going on?
>> And so that's the it's just it's the same thing in sales. Yes.
>> So like how do I get them to take the mask off and really open up and tell me because then it's over. It's like a done deal 100% of the time. They take the mask off, it's over. I I preach that to my sales team all the time is like we have to force them to have like an actual honest conversation because especially with like small business owners too, >> you know, like like here's one of my favorites. Have you ever asked a small business owner on a um sales call, you know, hey, what's your revenue last or what's your revenue right now? And they're like, well, you know, about a million dollars a year.
>> Then later we might be kind of diving in to diagnose some of their marketing and sales problems and we'll say, okay, great. Well, a and just based on last month, what was last month specifically?
And they'll go 40k.
>> And it's like the sales person that says they make 100 grand a month and they've done it one time in six years.
>> Yeah. And so it's just one of those things where I'm always like you have to force like the the things behind the wall to come out. Like you have to kind of be this type of person because they once they see you're not a regular salesperson too and they know that okay, I can't [ __ ] this person. This person >> they look at you as an expert. Yeah.
They if they know they can't [ __ ] you, they trust you that you can get them the results. If they feel like they can just [ __ ] you, they don't trust you. How you going to get them results if they can just [ __ ] you?
>> And when you can flip that dynamic, too, you're so much less likely to get [ __ ] at the end of the call in terms of excuses or this or that because they're like they already have this feeling of like >> I got to be honest with this person. I can't get things past this person.
They're really present. When I I like I talk a lot about preventing objections from happening and what you just said there is the the biggest way you do it is literally getting them to take off the mask. They literally overcome any concerns they have themselves.
>> Yeah. And what's so interesting about that is it's not objection prevention through like a little word you said or or a rebuttal that you memorized.
>> Sure. It's almost in a way how you showed up and how you were present in in a sense to where like you flipped the dynamic to something that really they probably never experienced before. They never thought about it with a sales >> really never like I always say like second part of NBQ is situation questions. So how do I find out their real situation? I always say the real situation, not the surface level stuff they tell you because you got to know like when you first start asking these questions, you're pretty much getting the surface of what's really going on.
Most sales people accept the surface level answers and just go to the next question on their damn script. And I'm like, there's zero emotional connection.
It's all surface level. It's vague, generalized, surface level answers. And you get a lot of I want to think it over, talk to my spouse if you're selling to consumers, you know, call me back next quarter, research objections.
And it's like, >> but they showed up to the caller, they answered the phone, you had this conversation. How did they go from like having this problem, they raised their hand if they responded to some ad, they've raised their hand basically saying, "Help. I don't know what's wrong necessarily, but something's wrong. So, how do we go from there to like I need to think about I need to think it over. I need like it doesn't make any sense to me. So, there's something missing in that conversation that caused that to happen.
>> So, that was level three. We still have a fourth level.
>> Then we identity.
>> Yes. Of course.
>> So, you know, Sigman Freud, you know, you've probably heard it.
>> Highest driver of all human behavior.
>> Exactly. So, just paraphrasing him.
Basically, people do who they believe they are. So they make their decisions based on the identity of who they believe they are. So if I have somebody on there that believes that they have like a uh there's two types like a superior complex where you know maybe as a sales training company that uh they're superior like hey I need to get to this goal but I think I can do it myself.
I'll take a few tips and do it myself.
And then I have to speak to that person differently than if I'm having somebody that has an inferior complex. They're like the training is awesome. It works but it wouldn't work for me because I'm never successful at anything. Right?
They're not necessarily going to tell you that. Okay. But I have to change I have to I have to get them into that identity of the person who is a forward thinker who never gives up. So like for example remember I'm listening to what they mean not just what they say. So when we're in future pace in in what we call solution awareness, we're asking like, "Hey, so before we met, like were you out there looking for XYZ other potential solutions to >> and they're like, oh, you know, like um yeah, you know, I let's say you're you're selling to a business owner and you're a marketing agency, for example.
Oh yeah, you know, we went with, you know, XYZ marketing agency and it just it never really worked out." Well, hold on. How do you mean it didn't work out?
So I'm going to take them back into the pain of that past history. And then after I do that where they feel that pain, I'm then gonna say, "Wow, I mean it sounds like you're the type of person who never gives up." So like a lot of people because if if they say, "We've tried a few things in the past and it didn't work out and you're in the same industry selling something very similar, what's the likelihood that you're going to get some type of an objection at the end?" No matter what it is, like talk with my partner six times, do more research, think it over. But in reality, it was, is this going to be just the same thing? Am I just going to lose more money with this marketing agency?
>> I have to understand that that belief system is probably still in the back of their mind.
>> So, how do I take change that belief system and build them into a new identity? So, all I'm doing is flipping that frame where instead of looking at as like a negative like, oh, they've tried all these things in the past.
Maybe they're not going to think mine's going to work. I'm just going to flip it and say, "Sounds like you're the type of person who never gives up."
>> I say the same thing. And then I say, >> "So, if if if I can ask cuz I'm I'm really just curious. like you've tried this and you tried that and you tried this and like you're not a quitter. So like I guess why is this so important to you? Like what has you keep it on?
>> What happens you like Yeah. What happens you like what >> I might have gotten that from you by the way.
>> No, but it's really good. But it's kind of like a different version of >> because you're basically taking their previous behavior and you're kind of like essentially communicating that hey that's kind of abnormal. That that's like a really good thing. Exactly. So like that's a little abnormal and then you're asking them to justify that behavior to you in a frame that essentially makes them convey why do they need to do this now though exactly without being like the crazy or not crazy but >> super lame saleserson on a script. So John uh >> 10k a month sounds good why is that important now and you know and then be like well obviously I want to make more money.
>> Yeah I want to make more money like >> they don't know how to camouflage it.
>> Yeah. So it's you got to have the context. Yeah, I that's what it's so funny like you know I'm sure you get this too if somebody will follow you for years on Instagram or YouTube and like they'll get off stage like man I've learned so much from like your YouTube videos and stuff and I'm just like I'm just looking at them like gosh like they just don't understand the context because it's like just because you do a 15-minute train on YouTube like if you don't understand the context of why you're saying this here or what happens if the question doesn't land like yes >> how do I need to loop back around and reask it a different way if I don't understand all the ins and outs It's not really going to help you a ton. Will you sell more? Probably. Are you going to like two, three, fiveex your sales? No.
Because it's like it's like uh you know what neurosurgeon masters brain surgery from watching YouTube videos? Does anybody master anything by watching IG reels? Unlikely. They're like little tips. They're like little golden nuggets.
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>> So, but back to the identity. So, really what I just did there, and that's just the start of the identity frame is really I'm helping them change the belief of what them going through those negative experiences actually means.
Now, >> Tony Robbins says this best. He says, "Human beings are storymaking machines, right? We all make up these stories in our lives and then we attach a meaning to said story, right?
>> Does that make sense? So your prospects do the same thing.
>> So they have a story that marketing agencies, let's say if I'm selling to market agents are bad because they've had three that didn't work out.
>> So anytime they start talking to a marketing agency, that means something.
So I'm changing the meaning of that to now, wow, this bad experience you've had, this has led you here. And it sounds like you're the type of entrepreneur who never gives up. So now I'm starting to shift their belief of what that meaning means. And then I'm going to go into identity frame. It sounds like you're the type of person that never gives up. And your spouse, let's say if I'm let's say they're really small business owner, it's just them. And your spouse, let's say I'm talking to a guy, she's lucky to have a provider like you that is that forwardinking and never that is that never gives up and knows they have to make the hard decisions for themselves.
Because I talked to a lot of business owners and you'd be surprised how many of them let some negative like crappy marketing agency just completely prevent them from ever getting like the right leads where they can ever scale their business. You know what I mean?
>> So that's the start of that. And so like oh no I would never do that. Like literally they they're probably like you're starting nobody's ever going to argue with themselves like that they're a person who gives up.
>> Yeah.
>> They're like yeah I never give up.
You're basically using their identity to confirm the question that you asked in a way that sets the belief that you want to set.
>> So whatever it is, I'm like, "Wow, you sound like you're the type of person that's a forward thinker." I I mean, it doesn't really matter, but they're never going to argue with that. It's not like they're like, "Nope, I'm not a forward thinker. Nope, I always give up." Like, they don't they're not going to argue with that even if they always give up.
They're not going to argue with that because that's what they want to be.
Nobody wants to be the person who gives up. You just never think that you give up. You never think that your life, wherever you're at or what's going on is your fault.
>> You never take most people just never take responsibility. I mean, you know this.
>> Well, and it's also like, you know, you've heard that book that's like the most persuasive nine words or do you know it's by Blake Warren?
>> No, I the one sentence persuasion lesson or something like that. But one of the ones is like you want to confirm their uh suspicions. Yeah. Which part of confirming their suspicions is giving them like, oh yeah, like I exactly that's what it was or like basically alleviate alleviate alleviating that it's their fault. Yeah. It's not your fault. Exactly. That's what Brunson talks about in his copy. So then I'm going to So at the end of that uh you know what I mean? They'll be like, "Oh, no. I would never do that." So like if I sold like final expense insurance, I mean it's the same. We teach all these frames and all these images. They're just little tweaks. Wow. Sounds like you're, you know, so if they, let's say they're like, "Oh, I, you know, I'm looking for this policy for, you know, uh, you know, I I don't want to have my my kids pay for this when I pass away, you know, depending on the context. I'm not going to say this early on, but depending on what they say before, I might then go into an Wow, it sounds like you're the you're the you're the type of person that's really responsible and and your spouse, I mean, she's lucky to have a provider." So, if I'm talking to a man, I'm going to say I'm going to play to the ego. She's lucky to have a provider like you. So I'm gonna say provider, right? Because the man provides. You know, if it's a woman, I'm going to say in your spouse, he's lucky to have an independent woman like you.
>> That's good.
>> You see the difference? I'm playing to the the ego state, okay? belief systems, you know, you know, provider like you that is that, you know, that forward thinking and knows they have to make the hard decisions sometimes for the family themselves because I see how I'm like sublim I don't stop and knows they have to make the hard decisions for themselves for their family sometimes because I talked to a lot of people and you'd be surprised some of them they don't really care about leaving all that burden and stress on their kids when they pass. You know what I mean? It's really hard for a male to be like like disagree with that. They're going to be like, "I would never do that to my kids."
>> And then I'm going to reinforce that identity. Like, so for you, like, >> were you born that way or is that something you had to learn?
>> Oh, that's good.
>> So whether they say they're born that way or they had to learn, they're now bought into the new identity. It's really hard for them at the end.
>> Yeah.
>> To be like, I need to think this over.
All right. And if they do, it's like really easy to help them overcome it at that point.
>> That's good. What about somebody staying on stage four who has the superiority complex?
>> Who's kind of like the, oh, I think I know it all. I might need a couple of things.
>> I mean, we get I mean, you know, selling to sales people.
>> I was just about to say I was about to say while we're on this topic, you can talk about, you know, what's different about also selling salespeople because it's just a it's kind of like a one of a kind unique thing.
>> No, they're high egos. Even if they make 50 grand a year, they're like think they're the best mother effers in the world. I'm like, >> yeah, >> what's going on? And I'll do a little aside like I've had people back when we did our B TOC sales training they'd be like I mean they'd be making 40 grand a year and they're like well >> you know the way it should really work is I mean you I you should be training me for free because you know the company should be paying to actually you know paying you guys to place or whatever.
And I'm like you'd be different if you were good and I' I'd be like it really just depends on how you want your boss to view you. What do you mean? Well, I mean, for example, the reason why people come to our training programs is because, you know, they don't want to be viewed like going to their boss like begging them to like buy training for them to make more sales because then they might think you might leave with that training to one of their competitors, right? They want to be viewed like by the boss as like somebody investing in their own skill level because your boss is investing in the business. So, they want somebody that they're going to promote into leadership that's already investing their skill level. So, like which way do you want to be viewed by your boss? So like I'm going to frame that.
>> I call that the who do you want to become frame? You know it's like who do you want to be? The real question is do you want to be this or that. I think the real question being a little aggressive in some way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's but but with let's say if a business owner gets on there um you know that first connection question we might ask you know especially if they're a larger business is I'm not going to talk about scaling the business because I might offend them. I might say yeah I mean that's a that's a big reason why a lot of companies or space come to us because look they're smart. They know that there's always higher levels to get to even when they're at the level they're at now. So like what level are you looking? So I'm like always saying like they're smart. They know I mean you're a top salesperson. You That's why we love working with top reps like you because you know there's always another level to get to.
>> Yeah.
>> So I'm not arguing that they're bad. I'm just refraraming that the reason why they're here is because they know that there's always another level to get to.
>> And what's down and even with your body language, you're actually creating the gap.
>> Exactly.
>> You know because there has to be a gap.
And what I like to say is there's two types of like there always has to be a problem in the sale, but there's two types of problems. There's a pain where somebody knows they're below par, they're below average and they're just trying to get back there.
>> But then what a lot of people sales people struggle with is the second one is there's an unfulfilled desire. Yeah.
>> Where it's like they know if they did nothing, it's not like they're going to be on the street.
>> Yeah.
>> But at the same time, they know they're capable of more, you know? Yeah. And so anyways, I'll let you continue, but just as a quick thing to dive into, a lot of sales people I work with, they'll complain to me, what do I do about a guy doing 10 million a year like he has no pain? And so as we're going to try to get him to open up and tell you the pain.
>> Yeah. As we're going to the superior superiority complex, touch on that as well.
>> Yeah. It's it's the same thing. So when I get on there, you know, because you might ask a question like, oh, we're always, you know, they'll be like, oh, we're just looking to sharpen our sword.
We're always look to improve. Yeah.
Vague.
>> Yeah.
>> So most of us be like, oh, great. and then go to the next question. I'm like, "Dude, you're toast at that point."
Like, you just like that's called non-committal languaging. Yeah.
>> So, if you let a prospect just give you a bunch of non-committal languaging throughout that conversation, what's the likelihood they're going to commit and buy at the end >> or even go to the next step if you're selling enterprise and next step demo?
Like unlikely.
>> Well, and the way I like to explain it too is the whole the whole call is really about the gap. Like that's the whole frame of the call. So, if you just like lay over and accept that non-committal language, like what what is the rest of the conversation even going to be about? Because the whole conversation is supposed to be about the problem because really sales is a demonstration you could solve a problem for somebody else, you know? So, what else are you going to talk about? You don't even have a topic of the conversation. The first thing you have to do is establish >> after the sale can be won or lost at hello. Like literally, you can win or lose a sale in like the first minute. I don't think most most people think that >> like when you go to close, that's when you win or lose. And I'm like, dude, it's not like when you give like, "Do you want the red one or the blue one?"
Like, "I want red." It's not like that caused them to decide to buy. They'd already decided they wanted the red one before you asked the damn question. So, it's it's interesting. But like with superior people, you just play into their ego, you know? Like it's the same thing. If they're like, "Yeah, we're just always looking to improve." Yeah.
Well, we never have businesses coming to us that that want to sell less. They always want to learn how to what? Sell more, right? Is that why you came to us?
So, I'm just reframing. I'm kind of like playful. I'm going to be more playful when I try to reframe beliefs in the beginning because I I I might not have them disarmed yet where they'll accept a frame.
>> It's like what we talked about diffusing the pressure.
>> Exactly. If I get the guard down because my playful tone now they're more relaxed, the nervous system's calmed and then I can be more like serious and like in their face later on. You do that too early. You're going to piss people off.
>> Yeah. So, what's like the tactical thing you would do? Let's say they say, "Oh, we're just looking for ways to improve."
You reframe them.
>> Yeah. what ways do you feel like you might need to improve?
>> Yeah, I'm just going to take it. I could either that. Well, what ways do you feel like you might improve? Or depending on how they say that? So, if they come across like kind of cocky and like surface like, oh, well, we're doing good. We're just we're just always looking to improve that tells me like their guards up. So, like I'm going to switch and I'm going to be playful.
Like, well, we never have companies coming to us that want to learn how to sell less. They always want to learn what? How to sell more, right? Is that why you came to us?
>> And I'm like, they're like, "Oh, yeah.
That's why we came here." and now I can go into it. But if they're like, "Oh, you know, we're just I mean, we're always wanting to improve." Well, what areas do you feel like you need to improve in?
>> It depends on how they say that.
>> So remember, I'm always >> listening to what they mean, not just what they say. I can listen to what they mean by hearing their tone.
>> Yeah.
>> Because that's how your brain deciphers.
And so, let me give you a scenario because this is one where sales people will they'll ask me about it, but you know, maybe the saleserson says, "Okay, well, what's the next level for you look like?" And they'll be like, "Well, I'm at 10 million. I want to get to 30 million." like, "Okay, well, what's what's keeping you from being able to get there?" And the person just goes, "Well, just time, right? How would you handle that?" Or would you not approach that?
>> I don't think I don't think I would set myself up.
>> You wouldn't set yourself up because I think that's I I'll give you a band-aid approach, but I don't know if I'd because I'd get more specific. That's a good question. Like, um, you know, what level do you want to get to? But like, okay, so you're 10 million now. Let's say that we came in. What am I selling?
Just give me something.
>> Well, you could just do sales training.
That's fine. So, you're at 10 million now. Like let's say that we came in and we trained your people, you know, the right disarming techniques, the right questions asked at the right time.
Where do you feel like you could get in the next 12 months if your reps really started to master this?
>> I'm like, like I'm really pacing out the question because when you pace out questions like that and you kind of end in a concerned tone, your prospect will think deeper about what you just asked.
This is verbal pacing rather than just me going fast. Okay. So, I'm going to get more specific. I'm attaching if we came in and did this, this, and this.
So, I'm already at future pacing here.
Where do you feel like you could get to?
I'm always going to say feel because I want to keep them on their emotional side of the brain, not think. That's logical. Okay.
>> So, where do you feel like you could be?
Right? And I'm just going to like lower that tone. Uh, and it causes them to think a little bit deeper. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean they're just going to be like, oh, 30 million like open wide up. They might just give you a stupid answer like I don't know. I think we get to 15. Oh, so 15. I mean, is that your humble goal? I mean, what do you really want once you have the rest? You can tell me, man. I'm It's, you know, I'm not going to go I'm not going to go post it on Instagram. You I'm not my guys be like, you can tell me, man. I'm We're not going to have Jeremy post on Instagram. You know, they'll laugh play like, "Oh, man. If I really could, I'd really like to do 30." Okay, 10 to 30.
That's a big difference. Why is the 30 million important to you? So, but I'm going to ask that more serious. So, I can go literally go play full tone and then like in a second like back to serious.
>> Yeah. I like to say if they like especially if they say it quickly like 30, I'll be like, "Okay, well, it seems like you've >> thought of that or considered that number before." So, I'm I'm curious like why that number >> because it it kind of again it it shows you're asking them to justify a behavior to you. It's like they have to qualify to you opposed to the other way around.
And it also seems curious because it shows through I'm listening that like, oh wow, it seems like you were set on that. It seems like you had thought about >> seems like you've already thought about that number. Why that number? Yeah. I mean, like here's the thing. Like every rep looks like this perfect word trap, but what you just said and what I just said basically accomplishes the same thing.
>> It's the principles, right? You kind of have to know like there's that uh principle in NLP where it's like if you know the outcome a lot of times and you stay present on the sales call, the right thing will actually come up. if you are sound in like the principles and >> and that's the problem with most sales people is they they're never really they're never really present in the conversation. Why? Because they're always thinking about what should I say next? What should I ask next? I don't know what to ask next. That's the problem because they're not really listening to what they mean.
>> So they're just like accepting some answer and going to the next question they just thought of. But when you understand the psychology and the principles behind it, like quite you have a framework. You're always going to stay in that framework. Like we always teach frameworks, right? like from connection questions to commitment questions. But within that framework, I have flexibility with that framework because I understand the psychology behind what I'm looking for at each part of that conversation. So I might say some, you know, I can take whatever they just said to the last question and instantly tweak the next question like in like a nancond, not even think about it. You know >> what I tell my sales people is they need to train so hard to where they can almost like a meditation. They can rest their attention on every word and facial expression of the prospect. And their training needs to be good enough before the call to where as woo as this sounds, the right thing will just come out. Like that's probably how you are if you take a sales call. I mean you've done a tremendous amount of training. It's like you're not even thinking. It's like you're in flow state which is literally like almost flow state is like the >> combination of meditation and performance almost like you're not in your head. you're in your body and actually things are coming through you.
I know it sounds >> No, it's it's true. Like, you know, one of our reps like brought me in to like say hi to this 50 grand package this this business owner was buying from us.
It was like 50 grand up front, then like another 150 over the year or something like that. And I thought I was just coming in to say hi. So, I come in, I say a few words, ask him a question. I can tell he's not 100% bought. I can just like like hear it in his tone, right? He's this big hedge fund manager in New York City. And I'm like, "Okay."
So, I really like started probing in and diving in. And it took me like I was a little bit rusty, you know, but it took me like 15 minutes and I'm finding out like 15 minutes later the reason why he wants to train for his team is because right now he's like closing all these big deals and he's like in his what mid50s and he wants to get a valuation on his company in the next five years and retire. But he's like, "Dude, >> I got him out of it." He's like, "Dude, when I get this valuation, you know, instead of getting like, you know, 800 million, I'm probably only going to get half of that because the business is tied around me closing these big deals."
And so I'm like, "So, who do you need to become? You know, who So, what do you need to do right here, right now to become, you know, you know, to become the business owner that's able to exit for 800 million because your team actually can do what you do." And so, that was his biggest why. But the rep had never found any of that out. It was all surface. And then he started I started diving in like why him wanting to exit was so important at that age.
And he's like well my dad was you know worked till he was 80 and we never saw him. And now he's like going back into like his childhood and this is why he wants to change. So that's identity stuff. Yeah.
>> And when they're like when they're bought in like I have to change because my dad was never present. My rep is like how does that have anything to do with his team selling more? I'm like it has everything to do with it.
>> Yes. Yeah. Well, the other thing is too is when you can actually get them to tell you a specific story about the why.
Like Tony Robbins calls it the moment of decision.
>> When they have to reexlain that to you, >> more importantly, number one, they're telling themselves, but also by reexplaining that emotional situation, it brings those emotions to the surface.
And those emotions are the emotions of what?
>> Yeah.
>> Change. Yeah. They have a it takes them to that they have that pain from the past. Their pain. I always say the two biggest emotional drivers cause someone to change are pain of what's going on now, current state, and their past. So, right, there's an example of he felt pain from the past, his dad not being around, >> which automatically causes your brain to have a fear of future pain, right?
>> That he's not going to be there for his son >> because he's still working.
>> So, automatically, when I take him back to the past, it causes the brain to have that fear that that's going to keep happening or could happen in the future.
>> Yeah. And that's when it's like you said, it's easy for them to want to change at that point.
>> Yeah. So, when I talk to, you know, our mutual friends, Matt, Eli, bunch of other people, >> what we always say about you is uh it's like the guy's tonality is unmatched.
You know, you got the best tonality. So, but I'm curious because I also know uh some people will criticize, you know, maybe your sales training or whatever because they maybe think the tonality is not replicatable, you know, oh, you know, doesn't work for me cuz Jeremy's just got all, you know, he just has that special >> how yet.
>> Yeah. So, but I'm curious, how do you really like if I'm a sales rep and I want to train how to do the tone the right way?
>> What would be the things they would want to undergo to really master it?
>> First of all, you want I mean, typically we hear that from people who are not clients. They're just following me on Instagram.
>> Well, they're just talking [ __ ] >> They're just you can't master anything from 60-second ress, right? Like I went through I was trained tonality, body language, verbal framing which is how do you frame simply by the sound of your voice >> but that's what actors and actresses are taugh. I was I was trained by Larry Moss. So he's an acting coach Leonardo da Vinci's a client Jennifer and no Jennifer Gardner Toby Magcguire a bunch of Hollywood. So he teaches like actors and actresses how to use your body language, how to use your tone, verbal pace because that causes people watching the show to stay engaged, you know, draw them in.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> So like if I if I what I always say to our clients, I'm like if you look like if you just come in your office and you just put the NPQ headphones on and you get in NPQ mode now, then you take them off at the end of the day and just go back to how you normally communicate, it's going to take you five times longer. M >> you just got to use this in everyday life. So let's say your girlfriend comes home today and she's like, "Oh my gosh, it's been such a stressful day." If you like stressful, concerned, tone, put your hand on your chest, shows that you care. Like, oh, how do you Hey, how do you mean by stress? What's going on? Like concerned tone? That type of stuff. Just doing that in everyday life. When you get into a sales situation, you don't even think about it. It just instantly happens.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it's just daily. It's just like doing daily things like that when you're talking to people >> and and what do you think cuz I've seen some people let's say they tr they're trying to do the tone and >> sometimes like cuz what you do so well is you can you know have the concern tone but also like in some of the beginning of the sales situations it's a little bit of like the confused >> tone depends on the context. Yeah.
>> And so anyways I see some people maybe they overdo it.
>> Yeah. and the pro, you know, in in an effort to try to stay a little bit neutral and not sort of have authority, the prospect just like tramples them, right? So, what do you tell the sales what what do you tell the sales people who are making they don't rehearse it enough? Like like look, if I if I want to be an actor who makes $20 million a film, like how much do you think Johnny Depp or Leonardo like role plays this role before they just go and shoot it?
It's not like they just get the script and just run in there and shoot it, right? They literally like rehears this thing like tons before they even get in there.
>> It's like Steph Curry's like he's not shooting three-pointers just in the game. He shoots like 500 three-pointers a day, seven days a week.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So, they just don't rehearse enough. I'm just telling you like most people do not rehearse this stuff a lot.
They hear it one time. They don't even really write it down and they try to mimic it and your brain can't retain that. Like if you hear me do something like that on a IG reel and you try to then go out and do it on a call 15 minutes later, you're going to forget probably 80% of what I just did there because your brain literally loses retention that quick. So what helps our clients is just everyday life. That's how they communicate. So they might like, you know, be playful. Like they sit down and somebody askked them like, "How you doing today?" "Oh, you know, just hanging out, being crazy over here.
What about you? Doing anything crazy?"
Like just stupid stuff like that. So like when I get in a sales situation, I don't have to say the same thing every time, but because I understand the principle, I literally can shift and do something else, you know, like we had uh you know, we had one of our sales people, he's he now started his own sister company, but this is a long time ago. Instead of saying, oh, you know, if the prospect ask how you doing today, like, oh, just hanging out being the boring guy, he would say like, oh, just hanging out being Asian. Because he was Asian.
>> Oh, I know who you're talking about.
>> And and people would just laugh. But see, he understood the principle. You know, we weren't saying to say that, but because he understood the principle of that, he could shift it to him and his personality.
>> Yeah. What about because I've always trained virtual. I've always done virtual, you know, I guess I'm a little new school, but you guys train a lot of in person.
>> What about in sales physical body language? Like what are some of the top two or three keys there?
>> I think um I think a lot of sales people have been trained this thought that you got to mirror the prospect. And I'm I'm totally on board for that. But eventually, you got to get the prospect to mirror you if you want to take more like get them to qualify to you. You don't want to do everything they do. So I can shift in and start doing some things they're doing, but eventually I'm going to start getting them to shift more my way. So just it's just more qualification. So like I said, I'm listening to what they mean, not just what they say. So if I can see them, even if I can see them virtually, I can read kind of I read their tone, right?
how their tone sounds is going to tell me a lot. But I can also read their body language. You know, if they're like, um, I think I mean, I think it could work when you ask like a closing question.
>> Yeah.
>> Hold on. You think it could work or you know this is going to work, you know?
So, it would depend on what they the call.
>> I just say you you think you I just laugh like what's really going on? What do you >> I got to get there right now because those are two different types of people, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Depending on what I'm selling. Yeah.
>> So, I'm going to say that. So, with body language, you just have more advantage.
I always say if somebody gets on virtually and they have their camera off, I want to try to get their camera on. I can't sound creepy, though, right?
Like, oh, I want to really see who we're working with, blah blah. Like, that's [ __ ] creepy, man.
>> But like, how do I get their camera on so I can see their body language?
Because that just helps me decipher what they're really thinking. If I have their tone and their body language, I have an advantage for sure.
>> Yeah. How do you get their camera on?
Uh, it depends on the context, but like typically it's so funny because a lot of people like I hear them all the time now. Can you hear me? Can you see me?
I'm like that is not what we train. We never get on there and just say, "Can you hear me? Can you hear me?" Like, why would you say that? Their camera's already on. Of course they can see you.
Like don't be stupid. Yeah.
>> You know, so like if the camera's off, so if you want to say, "Can you hear me?" I might say, "How well can you hear me? My mic is messed up." How, hey, how well can you hear me? I I was just on a call and they couldn't hear me very well. Don't say, "Can you hear me?"
Because that's a different answer. Yeah, I can hear you, but maybe it's not that well. Hey, how well can you hear me? I might start with that. You don't have to. Hey, how well can you hear me? My mic was messed up with the with one of our clients. Oh, I can hear you pretty well. And is your um is your video broken? I I can't see. Is your is your video broken? So, like I'm acting confused. Yeah. Right. And hey, I can't um is your I can't see. Is your is your video broken? And a lot of times like Oh. And they'll just turn it on.
>> I do the same thing.
>> Okay. But a lot of people like is your video broken? I can't see you. I'm like that's not what I did. Like I'm acting like I'm confused. Like I I don't understand. Like is your video broken or I because I can't see you. Like I'm acting confus is your video broken is different than hey your camera's not on because if your is your video broken forces them to correct the record. No, my video is not broken.
>> And then it's hard for them not to turn it on. They feel awkward socially. And then if like well I just I don't you know I just I always keep my camera off in these calls. Dude, well what's going on man? It's 12:45 over there. You still in your pajamas or what's underwear?
>> I say I say underwear. Yeah. say, "Oh man, if I knew that was the case, I would have wore my underwear on here."
Like, "I put my pants on today just for you. Like, you're killing me right now."
>> Yeah. As long as you're playful, like they'll just laugh and turn it on, man.
>> It doesn't matter. It's just It's cuz it's almost socially embarrassing at that point for them to still keep it off.
>> It's really hard.
>> Yeah. Let's rapid fire some objections, you Okay, cool. So, the these are the most common ones people want to know the answers to. So, the classic I want to think about it. Uh, sounds good. You know, can I just uh think about this?
Get back to you in three or four days.
>> It depends on what you sell. So, give me an industry.
>> Um, let's do I first sold lead generation training to real estate agents.
>> Fun fun market. Good way to train if you're a beginner.
>> It depends on the context. If I had them open or not open, let's just say I had them open. I'm going to say So, say that to me again.
>> Well, define open and not open because some people might not understand what you mean.
>> So, openness like I've got them to remove the mask. They've opened up emotionally. Yeah. Right. And I', you know, like >> they understand the consequences of not changing. I'm going to say it a little bit differently than if they've been like really really closed off.
>> Well, let let's assume open for this one.
>> Okay, let's do it. So, say that to me again.
>> Uh, I mean, it sounds good. Like, this sounds great. I just want to take a couple nights, think on it, and then >> maybe I can, you know, get your number.
Um, you need to take a couple of nights to think about getting three times as more listings so you can stop losing $50,000 a month.
>> Well, I mean, it's obviously I I want those results.
>> Well, why do you want those results?
>> Because my business hasn't been doing as good as it.
>> And why has your business not being good as it could be?
>> Because I Well, I don't have the right lead generation system in place. So, how's that going to change if you keep pushing this off?
>> Well, I I I agree. I I just want to take some time to make sure this >> Why do you agree, though?
>> Well, I know I have to do something.
It's >> Why do you know you have to do something? Because a lot of people would say, "I know I have to do something, but then they never do anything about it."
Have you seen agents like that?
>> Yeah.
>> And where do they typically go?
>> Well, they don't do well.
>> Okay. And you don't sound like the type of person who doesn't want to stay not doing well. So, what do you really want?
What's going to put you in the best position for you to get an extra three listings a month, an extra 50 grand a month?
>> It's doing something. I just got to make sure this is the right thing.
>> Well, tell me why you getting three extra listings and 50 grand a month would be the wrong thing.
>> Wait, say that again.
>> Tell me why you getting these extra listings would be the wrong thing for you. Because we all know where you're at right now is where >> is it the right thing or the wrong thing?
>> The wrong thing.
>> Why?
>> Because I don't have the right lead generation systems in place.
>> Okay. So, if we continue, if we still stay that person that keeps pushing it down the road like a lot of agents do out there and we keep pushing that out, how will this actually change?
It won't change.
>> Okay? And here's the thing, like I'm sure it's not your real intention to keep this $15,000 in your bank account for the rest of your life and just hope and pray it stays there with inflation, right? I'm sure your real intention is to never have to worry about money again in your life, right? So, what's going to put you in the best position where you become the person who actually gets an extra 50 grand a month in your bank account >> is is probably doing doing >> and I'm going to go through that now. I might have to reframe you 17 more times before I get there.
>> So, so let me ask a few questions for the audience. Number one, some some sales people think that you maybe should never cut somebody off, but you cut me off several times.
>> So, interjecting.
>> I'm interjecting. Well, hold on, John.
What caused you to say that? See, the reason why I can do that and get away with it is because I've already built a gap in that conversation like where they felt massive pain. Yeah.
>> And have a fear of future pain and I can get away with that because they trust me.
>> Because of the trust.
>> Because they trust me. Now, if I'm not very good at sales and like I've triggered the hell out of them the whole time and they've been closed off. Is that going to work? No. But I'm not going to put myself in that position.
>> Yeah.
>> I always like to say, "Let me pause you for a moment."
>> You know, that's a good It's like very disarming in a way. Hold on. Is another good one. Another one you could do is like, yeah, sure. I mean, you can think about it for, you know, a day, a week, a month, a year, 10 years, even 50 years.
But where is that going to get you at the end of the day?
>> That's good.
>> So, I can do that, too. I can just be playful. And then, but where is that going to get you at the end of the day?
>> Hey, if you're enjoying this video and you want to work more personally with either me or my team, we can help you in two different ways. Number one, we can help you install a marketing system so you can generate more leads and ultimately scale the revenue of your business. Or B, we could help you with your sales team by placing setters or closers in your business. and if they don't perform, you don't pay. We can also help you scale your sales team, systematize your management, all of that stuff as well. So, if you're interested in either of those, there's a link in the description or in the first comment.
You can check it out. Now, back to the video.
>> Also, the other thing I want to point out is you ended every single thing you said basically with a question, >> right? Why is that important?
>> Because it so depending on what the question is, it gets them to buy in.
like you would say, "Well, they would do this." Like, "Why would they do that, though?" So, that's behaviors, right?
So, a lot of sales people will stop.
They'll they'll ask the question that I just asked and they'll say, "Well, like, well, that agent would they would do it." And then and then they'll just try to close. Like, well, hold on. Why would that agent do it?
>> And so, I have to get more buy in, more commitment. Okay. Now, depending on what they say there, well, that the agent would do it because of that, that, and that, >> right? And you don't say and like notice how you said something. I'm like you don't sound like the type of person who because I got you to say like oh those agents out there never go anywhere. And I then I came back and said well you don't sound like the type of person who never wants to go anywhere. Would I be right?
>> So what's going to put you in the best position now? I'm going in for the close again. If that doesn't work then I'm going to come back and loop around with another frame.
>> Uh there's here's the thing because the thinking over objection that obviously we all know that's not a real objection.
They're not going to go think about anything. No. Nobody does that. They have some type of concern.
>> Yes. that what you're saying is not going to get them where they want to.
So, if I can find out what the real concern is and then I help them overcome that concern, it's pretty easy. How do I do that? I got to get their guard down first. Yeah.
>> So, if I have an open person, I've already got their guard down so I can get away with what I just did. If they're closed off, I have to do that a little bit more skillfully. I can't necessarily call them out yet. I might say, "Sure, that's not a problem. Um, yeah, you can call me back in a a week, a month, a year, 10 years, 20 years, I don't know, whatever you want to do. Um, just so I know, uh, because maybe you get back to me in a couple weeks. What was it that you're wanting to go over in your mind? Just so I know what questions you'll have when we talk again.
>> Yeah.
>> A lot of times they'll say, "Well," and they'll tell me the concern. They'll be like, "Well, it's just a it's just a big decision. I need to see if we have the budget."
>> So, now it's I don't have to say and think it over. It's just a money objection, and now I'm going to go there.
>> Right. So, you know what's interesting?
I I suppose see intuitively I know what you're saying because if I have somebody who I've really connected with >> the first approach you did was a little bit more I wouldn't call it steamrolling but it's kind of more steamrollish right I so intuitively sometimes I'll break my own rules and I'll do that >> my standard though is do actually what you just did which is hey no problem and then what I do is I assume I you know no problem I can disarm them >> and then what I do is I say you know and let's just take the decision off the table for a second Think about what we talked about. You know, we talked about step one, step two, step three. So ultimately, you could get result. And so I have no problem with you wanting to think about it, but like what do you think is keeping you from being less than 100% certain that that is actually going to work?
>> Yeah. Because now you're going to get the real concern >> because that reveals what the real concern is. And the reason I ask it like that is I take think about it and then I basically convert it to oh, like I almost mishar it as you don't think it's going to work. And so I spit that back out of them. And guess what? A lot of times what they either like get the real objection or oh no no no I I do think it's going to work.
>> Hold on. Why do you feel like it's going to work?
>> Oh no no no. When they come back and say that yes you know I do think it's going to work. I'm going to say well why do you feel like it's going to I mean is it going to take them back in the feeling side? Why do you feel like it's going to work? So I'm going to get them like well I feel like it's going to work because of this this and this. And depending on what happened in that conversation then it depends on what frame I'm going to use next. But that just you you did well. First of all you have to disarm them to get their guard down. So, if they've been kind of like surface level with you, that's the approach I'm going to take. If they've been if I've got them really open, I can be really direct with those frames and they'll they'll just go with it >> because they already trust me. And once again, it also depends on what you sell.
Like for sales training, we just look at them in the face. We're like, how many of your prospects give you that same objection?
>> Mhm.
>> They're like, "Oh," and they're like, "Well, what do you say to them?" Well, I say blah blah. Well, how many of those actually buy from you? Okay. So, what do you feel like I should say to you? And a lot of times like oh let's just do it.
>> But I can get away with that in sister.
I can't do that if I'm selling cabinets.
>> It's like fourth wall selling.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's likereneurs you can get that with too you know.
>> Yeah. Exactly. You can do that with like some business people. They're small business owners and sales people. You obviously if you're selling like you know flooring you're not going to say that to the prospect. So it really depends on the industry.
>> Okay. Let's do a coach. Let's say who's uh coaching business owners whatever.
>> And let's go. Oh, this sounds really good. I I definitely want to do it. You know, I just need to talk with my wife before I do this and then maybe we can follow up.
>> How does your wife feel about you scaling your business to $10 million a year?
>> Oh, she's very supportive.
>> Why? Because a lot of a lot of spouses aren't.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> They don't believe their spouse could actually do it.
>> I picked a good one. You know, she's always been supportive with what I've done. Just we have a shared bank account. So, I just want to make sure that, you know, she doesn't see 10 grand leaving the bank account then.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, >> because I mean, in reality, like if you went to her right now, >> I mean, because how do how does she I mean, how does she feel about you losing? You're talking about 500 grand a month right now. How does she feel about you losing 500 grand a month simply because you don't have the right leads yet?
>> Well, she's she's stressed about it because she sees me stressed.
So, is she more stressed about you losing $500,000 a month or would she be more stressed about you investing $10,000 into your business where you now get to $10 million a year?
>> Yeah. Well, I just think >> like if you thought about it, which would cause her more stress?
>> The 500 grand.
>> Why?
>> Well, it's a lot more money.
>> Yeah. And how many months are we going to keep pushing it down the road where we keep losing 500 grand a month? Are you okay with me saying that? Can I stop you for a second? So, >> did you know that you you you really interjected right when I was about to give you an answer you didn't want?
>> So, why did you do that?
>> Cuz I could tell by your tone like you were starting to go down a negative path and I could tell by your facial expression.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Talk more about that.
That was good. You know, it's so funny.
I I do the same stuff. It's like because it's it's almost like there's always like these parallel universes all the call can go on and it's like I got to keep it >> on the track I want to keep it on. And sometimes it's just like you have to >> interject it.
>> Anytime somebody says that I really like >> dude I mean I had an 18ear sales career.
>> Yeah.
>> I saw a lot of prospects. That's why a lot of people that like start their own sales training companies after like selling for six months. I'm like you just you don't know enough yet. You haven't talked to enough prospects. You can't like it takes a lot of people to talk to before you really and I'm like trained in this stuff like trained to like see it, you know? But like if I only sold a year and I started my own sales training company, like I wouldn't know anything because I I don't have all the wisdom and experience of that just right there of what I just did.
>> Yeah.
>> Because I've talked to so many prospects. I can tell when somebody says I really want to do this. What that means?
>> Yes.
>> It's never been like I really want to do this. Where do I pay like that? That's I you know I you know this sounds great.
I really want to do this. Does anybody say this sounds you know this sounds great with this tone? Does this this sounds great. I I really want to do this. So where do I pay? Like nobody says that. You know the butt's coming.
>> I know the butt's coming. So I'm gonna interject. Hold on. Why do you feel like you really want to do it? So I can already tell I know what's going to come. But it's like, man, I I like I I have to do this. Like I know I need this like and I I'm going to wait because that tone more certainty in their tone tells me that I'm going to get that >> maybe closer to the answer that I want to.
>> Yeah, that was good. That's one of those things that you only can really learn from experience in some ways. It's very hard to teach that through a Google doc, >> you know, a script.
>> Very hard to be like if if tone looked like, you know, it's like a lot of times hard reps, you know, because I do training called, you know, the last like seven months I I started doing a couple training calls a week for my reps and stuff rather than some of our trainers.
I was like, yeah, I got to teach these guys how to really sell. Our conversions were like 39%. I'm like, we got to get to 50. Like there's like our brand is big enough where because we're looking at some of these calls like 15% of the people that show up buy no matter what the rep says. They could be like my seven-year-old daughter and they're ready to pay, right? Like we should our conversion should be higher. And so a lot of the reps in like well Jeremy like uh where should I use that frame?
>> I'm just like you might not use it at all. It just depends on the context.
Like there's no straight jacket interpretation like after they say this you're always going to use this frame.
Yeah. Like you know what I'm saying?
Like, but if you teach them like the principles and the psychology behind it, that's when they have flexibility, know what to do. But it's it just takes a lot of times experience, you know, like our reps will be like, "Man, you know, I'm I'm I'm collecting 300 300 grand a month. Like, when am I going to get to, you know, 800 grand a month?" I was like, "It's just going to take time, man." Like, you you literally have been here for six months. Like, it it takes time.
>> Let's do one more.
>> Yeah, let's do it.
>> Okay. So, um you know, this sounds I mean, this is the best option I've heard. so far.
>> Hold on. Why do you feel like this is the best option, man? Are you just Is that what you say to everybody?
>> Well, yeah, sometimes that could be trouble, but I mean, seriously enough, why do you feel like this might be the best option?
>> Well, so far out of everybody I've spoken with, this is the best thing that I've heard. I like how you guys focus on tonality and sales training and um you know, mindset around the reps and deciding bas.
Well, they're not doing it right now.
>> Yeah. So, what happens if they don't get that today?
>> Well, here's the thing is, >> see, I'm going to try to cut that off just because I hear it.
>> I couldn't even give the objection.
>> I couldn't give the objection. I was like, man, >> give me the objection this time.
>> Okay. So, I was like, damn it. I couldn't even [ __ ] >> That's objection prevention. You just cut the objection off.
>> Cut it off.
>> That's what I mean by cut them off.
>> Go ahead. Um, the best option I've heard so far. I just want to talk with one other company on Monday and then make a decision from there.
>> Yeah, sure. Uh, what are you um You can always get back to me in a week, a month, a year, I don't care. What are you hoping that other company's going to say?
>> Well, maybe that they're as good as you guys and they're for less price.
>> Do you think they're going to say they're worse than us?
>> Well, what saleserson says they're worse than the other sales person? Have you ever met one of those? They always say what?
>> Oh, they're the best.
>> Yeah. So, obviously, what do you think they're going to say?
>> They're they're going to think they're the best.
>> Yeah. Now, you said something about cheaper. So, is like the the cheapest price the most?
>> Well, I was just kind of being I was kind of being funny, but you know, I just want to see what they have to say.
>> Yeah, for sure. I'm just going back to the price, though. Like, is the cheapest price the most important thing to you or actually like the skill level where you get to $20 million a year?
>> It's it's a I want to make sure it's working.
>> Why? because you know whether it's 10K or 20K I mean the results are going to be you know 10x that if it works.
>> Yeah. So let's say you go to this other company and let's say that you feel like they can generally solve some of the same problems that you're having now and let's say the price points are somewhat similar. I mean how would you then decide who to go with?
>> Well I guess I'd have to sit down and look over the proposals and >> Well, the proposals are going to be all fancy and good. But I can send you a fancy proposal. But in all reality, what's what's you see all that? What's going to cause you to feel like who you should go with at that point? You can tell me. We're on we're on the same team.
>> Yeah. I guess just intuition. What does your intuition say right now?
>> That's probably you guys.
>> Why?
>> Yeah. I just I just I mean that, you know, I kind of wanted to just make sure I made a good decision.
>> I mean, look, we all know people out there that just, you know, and I'm not saying you're this type of person. the person says one day I'm going to do it or I'm going to do a lot more research or you know your business. How many of your prospects say that to your sales guys like I'm going to do more research.
I'm going to talk to a bunch more companies and you know where do those where do they typically go?
>> They just don't do anything.
>> Yeah. And you don't sound like the type of person who doesn't want to do anything.
>> No.
>> So what do you really want?
>> I want to do it. So uh >> so I might go >> break down break down that track for me real fast.
>> Oh there was a lot of nuances there.
Where do you want me to start?
>> Uh, I mean, I'm It's like it was like a slippery slope. So, I don't know. I guess at the beginning.
>> Oh, god. So, the first one when I cut you off, I can already tell by your facial expression and your tone that an objection's coming. So, the first thing I'm going to do, well, hold on. Why though? Why do you feel like it's the best option, though? So, I'm going to get because I want them to tell me why it's the best option and more importantly, tell themselves.
>> And and again, it redirects that path like they're going down a path. You can kind of see it and it just >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm redirecting that path.
Now, that doesn't mean like 99% of the time they're still going to come back with the objection, but what I'm doing there is I'm trying to take them from it's usually the price or the cost, right? I want to take them from that price or costbased thinking to focusing back on the result. So, that's why I go there first. They're like, well, the reason why is we have to have the tonality. We want to get to 10 million.
So, now I'm starting to reframe their mind back into the end result. Okay? And now they're going to come back usually and still say the objection, but now I'm starting to refrain them into that result, which gives me more leverage.
Remember, I'm not doing this to them.
I'm doing this for them so they overcome their [ __ ] stories and they can have what they want, you know? And so the the second time uh when you when you said that, what did I what did I say? You said you wanted to go look at some different companies. I just agreed. I'm like, "Yeah, that's not a problem. You coming back in a week, a month, doesn't really matter." What are you hoping that company's going to say to you? So, by you answering that, it's not all the time, but most of the time, your answer is going to kind of tell me what you're what's holding you back with me, maybe they might say, well, I just want to see what options they have, you know, what their price points are. So, I'm like, okay, cost is an issue, right? In their mind, that tells me that. Okay. And whatever they say there. Now, they might come back say, well, I just always look at different options. Oh, yeah, for sure. What are you hoping those options show you? So, I'm just like, they just didn't give me an answer. I'm like, oh, yeah, sure. Like what what are you hoping those options are going to show you? I'm just literally like loop back around and reass the same question a different way.
>> Yeah.
>> Until I get you to open up.
>> Yep.
>> And so you told me you said, "Oh, you said uh I just want to what did you say?
I want to compare things.
>> I just want to, you know, dot my eyes and cross my tees or whatever."
>> Cross my tees, see what they're, you know, you know if they're cheaper. You said that. I heard that word. So maybe like So is the So I'm immediately went to like I'm going to try to get the cost thing. So is the cheapest. So I always like really even if they say I want to look at a lower price or I just want to compare prices I'm automatically going to say so is the cheapest cheap sounds bad and most people don't like the cheap >> is correct the record thing again.
>> So I'm going to reframe them again like so is the cheapest price the most important thing to you or actually like scaling your company to $10 million a year. So that's taking them out of price or cost space to get to the end result.
And even with your body language, what you're doing is you're I don't even know if you did this intentionally, but you're separating their option versus your option like this.
>> This is the bad option.
>> Yeah. This is what you want.
>> Yeah. It's almost like the whole, you know, when you're selling from stage, like they point to the doors, you know, >> it's the same thing. So, I'm doing I'm even if I'm on the phone, I'm still doing that because that affects my tone.
If I just sit there like this, it's not going to come out the table. So, is the cheapest price the most important thing to you or getting XYZ result? She's like, "Well, of course we want the result, but why though?" Most sales people like they'll copy my comparative frame, but they don't know how to go three steps further because they're not in our training. Hold on. Why though?
Notice how my tone goes down. Hold on.
Why though? Boom. And they'll tell me why. Or they might waffle again. And I'm just going to loop back around. And then what did I do to tie it off there? I don't remember.
>> I don't remember either. But but what I like but what what you know the one thing I think that a lot of people can take away from this is >> that clearly a lot of times is just a buyer defense mechanism >> and they don't even know why they're saying it. So when you start pushing on it with questions with the right tonality that don't make their put their guard up even more, >> it just kind of falls apart. It >> just kind of falls apart.
>> They're just kind of like, "Yeah, I don't even know what the [ __ ] I'm doing.
>> We should just do it."
>> It's like, you know, they're just like, "Oh, you know, I guess like I don't even know why I said that." Exactly.
>> It almost breaks them out of like they're kind of in like almost like a hypnosis in a way.
>> Exactly. It's exactly why I taught our sales people to do that first with if we're training a sales like if we're talking to a saleserson or even a company literally I train the first thing is like how many of your prospects give you that same objection? They'll be like oh you know a lot of Yeah. And what do you say to them? And a lot of times they're like oh let's just do it because they're like this is stupid. Why am I getting this objection? Literally like you just said, but it depends on what you're what you're selling if you can how you can actually do that. But it's having that playful tone like getting their guard down. But then sometimes I can't stay playful all the time. It's got to get more serious cuz I'm I'm like concerned about the consequences if you don't do this. So the reason why they that people don't understand why they are pushing off is because the brain was only built for us to survive. It was never built to thrive, to keep us safe.
So anytime there's something new or there's something unknown to the brain, we look for external validation to want to push it down the road. That's why we say we want to talk with our spouse. So if it doesn't work out, the spouse won't blame us. That's why we say we need to talk with our financial advisor because if it doesn't work out, it wasn't our fault. So it's external validation. So our mind feels like it's safer to keep pushing it down the road, which we all know pushing anything down the road is very unsafe.
>> Yeah. And it's also actually mentally exhausting because most people live their lives with hundreds of open loops.
You know, I always thought, you know, I try to train my brain to just close the loops as soon as possible because it's actually mental baggage.
>> It's so true.
>> That weighs on you.
>> Yeah. It's stressful for sure. It's like being in a relationship and you're like, "Oh, I shouldn't be in this relationship." But yet, you keep staying in the relationship so you don't like, >> you know, hurt somebody else's feelings or you really like their parents or you like their, you know, their sister or something like their friends and like you don't want to hurt them so you just stay. But it's like you got to close the loop.
>> It's a lot of times all the baggage that weighs on you throughout your life is usually in direct correlation to the lack of hard conversations that you haven't had yet.
>> So true. With yourself.
>> Yeah.
>> With yourself and with other people.
>> Tony Robbins session. I love that. There we go. So, we went on a we went we were talking about scaling. We went on a massive sales detour, but it was too fun. So, just going back and then we'll wrap up. Uh what does seventh level at 100 million or 200 million or 300 million look like to you? Like what has to change? What do you think if you think about what that looks like? How does it look >> as a as a company? You know, we're on pace for 50 this year or right around that range if we stay at our current numbers. um you know to I'm a really big believer and it goes it kind of goes back to Cardone I've read one of his books I can't remember that he talks about when his company was at 40 million like he was there for or 30 or 40 million a year he was there for a while and they couldn't quite figure it out and then it was their executive leadership team he's like you like to go from 40 to 100 it's all your executive leadership team and having leverage like having the best department heads >> and most people you you know like when you're when you start up a company you kind of start throwing bodies into positions like, "Oh, this guy's average at sales, but he seems like he's really good with numbers. Let's make him head of operations."
>> Never done it in his life. Yeah. You know, so as you start bringing in more cash, if you have those same people running those things and they didn't grow into that, like they didn't gain knowledge to really scale that, which most of them don't, some of them do.
We'll grow the company. It's like you have to replace him with somebody who's already done that thing, who's already took a company from 40 to 200 million as a head of operations or whatever it is.
So, you know, that's that's one thing we've been working on the last six months is taking different, you know, people in those leadership positions that maybe not their best position they could be in and either moving them to a different position where they're better suited for and then bringing in the right type of person who's actually done that thing that we want to do in that department. So that has helped us this year for sure and we'll continue to refine that and do that. We've got our AI that's rolling out right now. That's going to be big for our enterprise level type of clients. Um yeah, it's going to be fun. I think it's good. And then we we're rolling out our placement stuff right now. So a little bit of extra revenue coming in from that. So that's good.
>> Right. So and I agree. I mean I always think talent >> training companies first is the best.
>> Not really placement companies just kind of on this side. Like we don't charge for the placement for the rep. They're paying for the training. Uh, but it's it's something that employers have asked us to do, which I just didn't feel like we had the the uh foundation to be able to to fulfill it, if that makes sense.
>> It's a lot.
>> I I've heard Yeah, it's if if it's one of those things where my own uh naivity >> and just kind of being a little delusional helped because I just thought it would be kind of easy.
>> And then I, you know, I was good at sales, so I sold a lot of people. Then I just constantly had to build the ship as I went. Yeah. And I would say, you know, we went through three major iterations in how we've run the entire recruiting department and now it's a 20 person full sight goal. Like it runs like an actual I I didn't come from recruiting background.
>> It's like an actual recruiting department.
>> And uh we're super proud of it. But holy [ __ ] if I knew how hard that was going to be when I first start, I just wouldn't even have started it. I would have tried to sell a course.
>> You don't know what you don't know, right? So I mean it took us six years before I felt like we were at a point where we had the foundation and the right people to fill it. I won't do something even if it makes us a lot more money. I will not do it um if we can't fulfill it because the brand I want the brand reput I want the brand to be here 30 years from now, 50 years from now.
Even when I'm not here, I want it to still be here. I've just seen too many like companies like just go crazy selling, but they don't fulfill it all.
And then I mean you they're a dime a dozen in this.
>> Yes, of course. And so, okay, so again, if you think of, let's say, crossing nine figures, even beyond nine figures, is that still mainly going to be working with the individual salespeople? How much of it do you think is maybe landing more enterprise type of clients or mid-market type of clients?
>> Yeah, more enterprise because landed like a $900,000 placement deal with the employer, you know, >> you're not going to have an individual pay 900 grand for that, you know, >> and how do you get those people? Because everybody wants >> Yeah. the enterprise mid-market client, the big deal, right? Everybody wants that, but it's not always as easy as, you know, sending them a cold email. We we've always, you know, like I don't feel like until the last six months, we've done a really good job at working from the bottom up because we get, you know, we might get like 15 to 20 high ticket buyers a day. Anywhere from five grand to 25 grand every single day of the week, seven days a week. Y all those individuals sell for companies. And I'm like, why did we not have a system in place here? Because we we have like 42,000 testimonials. We have a lot of testimonials. So why not when these people get in the training, why don't they get a call by one of our B2B reps that only sells to companies and be like, "Hey, welcome to the training, blah blah blah blah blah. Who do you work for?" Yeah. Who does your sales manager want the team to sell more and work at a refer? So we started doing that recently and that's worked out really really well. I don't know why for 5 years we never did.
Why? That's like it is one of those things. It's pretty off, you know, it is like you have it right there because really if you look at the way I would think about scaling your business is that yes, it probably is going to be through landing those enterprise deals.
How do you land them? Well, you just happen to have a front-end marketing mechanism that literally creates champions.
>> Yeah. Corporate champions.
>> Look, this saleserson was literally nowhere to be found and now he's our number two guy out of 2,000 people.
Like, how the hell did that happen?
Yeah. you know, so it's like you already have a person that's already showing the proof of that. Um, a lot of companies do see your ads though. You'd be surprised.
>> Well, you know, and this is the thing I've learned. This is part of the reason I'm going to also because I tried to make ads specifically, let's say, for enterprises because I want to sell bulk recruiting deals, etc. >> But, uh, what's tough is to make ads work, you have to be able to monetize the small business because that's 80 90% of the traffic.
>> But, you know what's interesting is so I I I tried to go right for enterprise. It couldn't work. But then I thought about the ads I already run which is they mainly are small businesses 80 90%. But if you look at every single almost big 40 to I mean in our industry in the coaching training industry let's say 50 to 100 mil is pretty much like as big as people get.
>> There's like a couple people >> and there's not that many. I mean there's of course like Tony Robbins numbers like that's what's on the top end but the thing is is even through running the ads whether that's a branding thing or a word of mouth thing >> I've worked with probably 95% of almost all the companies who are on the >> sure >> top echelon and so part of it when we go to home service is I'm still going to focus on monetizing and helping the small businesses but I know by the nature of just being in that market that like it's it's almost like Yeah, >> like you will get people. I mean, I have booked, you know, weirdly, we booked, I think, um, >> not Spirit, I just think Spirit because they just, that's an airline that just closed down. Who is the Sprint? Is that a cell phone company?
>> Yeah, Sprint.
>> Yeah, we booked Sprint through a LinkedIn ad. So, you can like do it, but you have to have the kind of the you have to have a be able to monetize >> like by so by Lindy, uh, you know, that that owns the Ram Stadium, LA Ram Stadium. They're a new client of ours a couple months ago and their senior vice president just saw he just followed me on Instagram.
>> That's how that lead came in.
>> Yeah. And a lot of a lot of my best stuff too has been from social media.
It's kind of >> it is interesting just because >> you know you you tend to think social media is something that's like oh that's for 25 to 34 year olds or whatever. But >> people are on social media watch. You got executives that are on Instagram just like you are. Yeah.
>> You know if they're if they're it's just all how you target you know >> uh it's how you're it's targeting the right type of person. Our ads have shifted recently, uh, which is really, really good for us. So, our marketing spends gone way, way down, and we're getting a higher qualified lead. Our AO obscreed, >> right? Just it's it's like, how did our AOB increase and our ad spend went way down? We get more leads. There, there you go.
>> Yeah.
>> There's always a new level, I guess, >> doing good business stuff. Yeah. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're also probably going to like this podcast I also did recently that you can check out by clicking the screen right
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