The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell - Live Discussion with Johanna & Evie

[00:00:05][music] Well, good afternoon everybody. We are here to talk about the third quarter, yeah, third quarter read of the Fireside Book Club. This is something we do every quarter. uh the three of us plus sometimes Matt, we do a uh read along together with the fireside. We have people read along with us. Um, and this month we read The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. And this is a work of science fiction that is a first contact story.

[00:00:46]And it's a story that has interwoven in there a lot of things with um, faith and there's very interesting alien life in this one in this kind of maybe somewhat near future type of science fiction story. Um, but one thing that we added, this was this was Joanna's idea and I liked it, is we have hidden our thoughts. We have not told anybody anywhere what we thought about it even before we started the live stream. Uh, we didn't say whether we liked it or not. So, we're going to reveal that and then we're going to each talk about our thoughts. This will start spoiler-free and then we will go um into spoilers.

[00:01:24]So, something we're going to do, we're going to reveal at the same time. So, uh Joanna has signs, but like I have t-shirts. So, like if I hold up my green t-shirt, that means I I I really liked it, green for go, yellow if I was in between, and then red if I didn't like it. So, um, are we ready to reveal whether we liked it, didn't like it, or were in between? All right, here we go.

[00:01:47]One, two, three.

[00:01:51]Oh, wow. Look at that.

[00:01:52]>> Am I backwards? By the way, I'm so sorry if I'm in the mirror view. I don't know how to flip that. You're You're in the the right order. No, it looks right.

[00:02:00]>> It looks right. Okay, cool. It looks It looks backwards from my view. So, >> this is cool. We have a We have a thumbs up, a thumbs down, and a thumb sideways.

[00:02:07]So, uh this will prove interesting. So, um well, let's uh let's just work around. I'll go last since I'm hosting.

[00:02:14]So, uh Evie, do you want to start? You uh you held up the red sign.

[00:02:19]>> So, I actually DNF this book.

[00:02:22]>> Wow.

[00:02:23]>> Yeah. I so to be to be fair I I part of it the majority of it is wrong book wrong time I had just read between two fires so I was already coming off of a religious horror book >> and the religiosity going into this was just so heavy and it felt so heavy-handed that I'm like I am not liking this at all and I would have rather I wanted to DNF it as oosed is to push myself through it and not and like hate read it basically because if I if I come back to this at a different time, I I might I have a chance of liking it because John John got me the book. He sent it to me. He thought I would like it and you know, John doesn't have terrible tastes. So, you know, um so as of right now, it's just not the book for me. It's not working with my brain or it wasn't working with my brain and I I DNFed it.

[00:03:19]>> How far did you get into it? probably like less than a 100 pages, which I know is like, "Oh my god, you only read like less than 100 pages and then you dnfed."

[00:03:29]I'm I pretty much know my taste. I'm like, I know I'm going to hate read this if I keep going. So, [snorts] >> never never a good recipe, >> but I'm interested to hear you guys thoughts. Hopefully, you guys what you guys talk about as women are like, "Oh, that's that's interesting. I I should give this another try." So, >> well, I guess I'm next. And I'm sadly, Eevee, I don't think I'm going to be convincing you because I was pretty mixed negative on this book. Uh, >> okay. I wanted to DNF this book so badly. Like, there were times, especially in the first half, I just wanted to throw this book across the wall, like across the room, because I hated the humor in this book. Like, I hated it. And and it's weird because I I had heard that there was humor in it, but I I didn't I didn't realize it was so incessant in this story. I feel like the characters all thought they were so funny and so clever and I I didn't laugh out loud a single time. I just thought it was obnoxious. Uh it it drew me absolutely crazy. I couldn't stand it.

[00:04:38]So for me it was it was a a matter of the execution of that factor. I couldn't stand and uh surprisingly it wasn't the worst book that I read in the month of June but I was really negative on it. Like I said and I don't DNF books if I start them if I read visually. I do not DNF books. Uh, I did immersion read this with the audiobook and the physical copy, but uh, if I just listen to an audio book, I usually DNF left and right. I did not DNF it, though. And I kept forc myself to keep going. And I'll say that in the second half, I did I did feel like there's a good story in here. I feel like there is a good story in this in this book. Uh, I didn't feel like the execution quite worked for me. And I didn't feel I feel like the big reveal at the end was a bit telegraphed. And so it it was it worked.

[00:05:35]It worked for what she was going for, but it didn't blow me blow me away either. I think there are some good elements though. Like I I can point to some good things. So I think I'll be able to speak from that end. Um what style of humor is it? I'm trying to think of how to describe the humor. It's it's just banter. It it's like characters a lot of sexual crass. uh salacious humor. Uh but characters just thinking they're so funny. Like I just remember this one guy is like as what does he say? He says something like as tight as like a finger up a baby's butt.

[00:06:07]Like he thinks that's so funny. I'm like that is not funny. Uh so I didn't think Yeah, that that was the biggest negative for me though was the execution of the humor. Um otherwise like I said some good ideas in there and and also the religious theme was interesting especially because I have a family member who has decided they are going to enter Catholic priesthood and and of course my dad was raised by well he went to a school of priests and so I thought that element was interesting and I'm really curious to talk about that more.

[00:06:39]All right Josh go for it.

[00:06:41]>> So I I love this book. I thought this book was fantastic. Um, and it really surprised me because this is a book that had you told me ahead of time what it was about because I didn't know what it was about. All I knew is that John had recommended this um on my channel at one point and again I like like you said, Eevee, John has a lot of similar tastes to me and I thought, "Oh, this this sounds, you know, John's recommending it as one of his most underrated works.

[00:07:06]Like I'm just going to buy it. So, I picked it up and didn't know anything about it. And I've gotten to the point where I don't, you know, I don't read the blurbs anymore because I think that so much of they they tell you too much about the plot and I I like I guess I've I've gotten to a point where I like to discover and read a lot more. Um, so I didn't know anything about this, but had you told me what this book was about, that it's basically a first contact story where kind of the themes of of faith are exploited quite a bit in here and the central protagonist is a Jesuit priest. Like those kinds of things are not kinds of things that I generally kind of gravitate towards when I read um especially in science fiction because I just feel like, you know, that's those are science fiction. And I think I want more science than faith in there. So I wasn't really um you know I wouldn't really gravitate towards a story like this. But I thought it was mostly handled with a little subtlety um as far as the themes are concerned the further it went on. I thought at the beginning it it was going to be a little bit heavy and I was thinking oh this thing's not going to work for me. And then I felt that as it got more into the crux of the story, the more that we explored the alien life in here that I felt that at that point um I really started to enjoy the book. Um as for the the humor genre, I think the I think one aspect of the story that didn't work for me real well, I think was just characterization in general. Um I didn't feel that that was a strength of hers. Uh this was her first novel and she's not trained as a novelist. She's a anthropologist. So the the parts that were more about anthropology I thought were really well done, you know, as far as the exploration of the alien life um and kind of the two different alien species basically that we that we get to get to know on this planet. Like that aspect of it, all of that was was so interesting to me. Um and I think in many ways because of the characterization might be a little weaker. It felt to me almost like a throwback. Like when I read an azimoff, I don't read it for character or pros. I'm, you know, trying to read the, you know, underlying ideas and that's how I felt with this. Um, I don't know. You said the ending was telegraphed. It wasn't for me. I didn't see it coming. I was, yeah, I was really um I was really shocked by the ending of it. Um, and um, so for me, I it landed because I didn't see it coming.

[00:09:29]>> Um, >> you know, I have a I have a friend who uh who said that she didn't see it either. So, I I don't think you're alone with that, but I'll explain when we get into spoilers how I how I thought that.

[00:09:40]Um, yeah, I also want to say I actually picked this book up not thanks I did see John shout this out on your channel, but I actually I picked this book up thanks to our good friend Bridger from the library ladder. Uh, not to throw Bridger under the bus because I love Bridger and and his recommendations, but I did find this at a used bookstore after he talked about it on his channel. Uh, so I know it's a very beloved book and I feel like I have a very unpopular opinion here, but I do agree with you about the characterization.

[00:10:07]>> Yeah, but I mean besides that, I thought I thought the theming was solid and I thought it was pretty um and again the the juxosition of the faith and the science aspects of it, it just made sense. I mean, when you think about um it was funny because it made me chuckle because the uh the afterward, at least in the the version that Eevee and I have um it has like a chapter called Jesuits in space, you know, which is kind of tongue and cheek, but it uh >> you know, where she talks about um I mean I knew a little bit of the history of the Jesuits, at least missionary work. It seemed like they were always, you know, at the forefront of exploration, like, you know, they were in the east before any other um, you know, westerners seem to be in the east and as far as from a religious standpoint. So, it would almost, you know, it would kind of make sense that, um, if there is this discovery of an alien, you know, an alien planet that the the Jesuits would kind of be on board based on their history. So, um, I found that highly interesting. And again, I think the my my enjoyment of this book leaned into I think the things that she did well and I just kind of ignored some of the things that she didn't do so well.

[00:11:14]>> Yeah, I I'll say that um I I think I felt a little differently about the idea that it explored faith. I actually was here for that theme to some degree because it made me think about Hyperion and the priest's tale and that's my favorite part of the Hyperion story is the priest's tale. So, I I thought that was a cool thing. Uh, and it made sense and I I I like that. Yeah, I like that.

[00:11:38]I think some of the ways that came together, that mission came together were interesting. Like I I don't know how much I buy into it, but, you know, >> yeah, a lot of it it seemed like it was, you know, the the selection of some of the characters that went on it, it was pretty convenient, very >> um, you know, that this very small-nit group of people also happened to be like the main people that were going on this this this journey. Um but then again it was also you know and you know you could see I mean this was written at least 20 years ago because this is 20th 20th anniversary edition um that I have here.

[00:12:13]You can you can see kind of the rise of um you know private space exploration which is what this is. You know this wasn't a thing sanctioned by government.

[00:12:21]So you know perhaps that makes it a little more plausible. But yeah, it was a little bit convenient that uh you know the the the couple that the priest knew really well just happens to go and then this guy happens to go, you know, and all of that. So, um it's a uh you know, it is a thing that, you know, I think sometimes authors have to do that. Um but I loved it, but I won't put it up with the priest tale either. [laughter] >> I mean, that's that's like S tier storytelling >> real. Yeah. I'm putting this here so I can write this down real quick because that is probably right up my alley. And I do remember um in, you know, Shogun that was obviously a a plot point as well about the Jesuits in in Japan. So >> that's right. Yeah, good point.

[00:13:04]>> Cool. I had to write that down. Um one of one of the things we can still talk about this spoiler-free. I just thought jotted down like two things real quick beforehand is um when there's an interview with her in the back of the book and they asked her what's the primary theme of this book and her answer I found this really interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts even only having read a 100 pages I think you can chime in on what you heard of this um her answer to what's the primary theme of the sparrow is she says it's the exploration of the risks and beauties of religious faith which is not what I felt until I thought about it.

[00:13:42]>> No, I agree with that theme.

[00:13:44]>> I mean, the risk the the risks obviously are are a huge part of of this story.

[00:13:50]Um, but the risks and the beauties I find that's very interesting. I wouldn't have I mean I'm not the best theme guy anyway like but if I were to write down the themes I would have said you know religion and science or I might have picked up on the anthropological things having not known her background just because you know that was kind of the lens when we got to the world but um I just found that really interesting the risks and the beauties. I love that kind of juxosition that she puts in there.

[00:14:16]>> Yeah. No, I actually I can totally see that theme. Um absolutely. I'm actually excited to talk about spoilers because I think that's the one part of the story that I find interesting. Like I I that I more like when I say I'm mixed about the story, I think that like I said there are positives about it. There are things about it like that I was thinking there's there's some good elements in here and that specifically I think was done well.

[00:14:42]>> Yeah. I so that that's the one of the things that I was well I I highlighted two things in the amount that I had read um and they one of them was talking about faith he had also discovered the outermost limit of faith and in doing so had located the exact boundary of despair it's from chapter 2 so it's not really >> I wrote that down too in my >> there um so I guess logic ically, I can understand that and I can see the correlations of what she's intending, but from a reader perspective, it it just like I said, it felt preachy.

[00:15:27]Um, if it had been, >> I don't know if maybe that was her intent to be preachy, but if it had been a lot more subtle and quiet and really conversational in those, you know, explorations and discussions of, you know, the risk and beauties of of faith, I probably would have actually been compelled to read it um because of that, despite kind of the very slowness of it, which that's actually another thing of why I DNFed it. I'm like, "This is going so slow. What is going on?" Like, "Grip me with something. Come on."

[00:16:02]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:03]>> I I do think that aspect did get better throughout the book. I think it was a little more subtle. It's also interesting just the the interview that's that's in my addition with her is um she stopped being Catholic at like age 15.

[00:16:18]>> So, yeah. She abandoned her faith very early. And I find that very fascinating that someone who had abandoned their faith would make an exploration of faith such an important part of a book, especially their first book. Uh I found that part of it fascinating. So maybe overcompensating at the beginning anymore. That's surprising to me because I would have expected her to be like, you know, as of current, you know, as of writing it, very active in, you know, the organization, which I mean, to be fair, religion and faith are two different things with an over, you know, vendor overt uh >> overlap. But yeah, I'm actually surprised hearing that. We can explain I think we could explain that a lot more in the spoiler section how she handles that.

[00:17:09]>> But uh I guess the other one other thing to mention uh spoiler-free is that this this story takes place in two timelines.

[00:17:16]So it takes place in 2019 which is the future from when she wrote it, right?

[00:17:20]Because she wrote this in what was it?

[00:17:22]96 in 19 or it was published in '96 and then so it takes place in 2019 and60 going back and forth between those two timelines and that was a that was an interesting choice.

[00:17:36]>> Yeah, it was and I I definitely want to talk about that in the spoiler section because I I think it had some mixed results. There are parts of it I thought worked but uh anyway we can talk about that more. Any other any other spoilerfree things so we can start uh kind of digging in a little bit.

[00:17:53]That's a good question. Other spoiler-free things that we could say.

[00:17:56]Um, >> so this is So I know that there's a sequel to the to this. Yeah.

[00:18:00]>> Do you think this book stands well on its own?

[00:18:03]>> Yes.

[00:18:04]>> Yes.

[00:18:06]>> It seems a lot of people um just that I I've seen comments about this book. Most people um say not to read the second book.

[00:18:16]And um again the interview I read she was writing it at the time and she was very nervous because it was you know had kind of a modern classic and she was scared about revisiting it and following up with you know a character's continued journey. But um yeah there is a sequel.

[00:18:33]I'm so I'm not going to read it. I really enjoyed this one. I don't feel I need to you know continue.

[00:18:40]>> I'm definitely not continuing.

[00:18:42][laughter] I was I was pretty, you know, like I said, I I think the second half was was for me better than the first half because the humor relented a little bit, but um it still didn't I mean there, like I said, I could pick apart some good things in there, but I was so ready to be done with it at the same time. I was like, I'm just I'm ready to be done with this book. So, yeah, it just wasn't quite for me. Didn't quite hit for me.

[00:19:06]So, >> all right. Well, let's go to spoilers.

[00:19:09]I'll put up this banner. So, you've been warned if you haven't read The Sparrow and maybe I've convinced you to read it.

[00:19:15]The other two may not have, but [laughter] you do want to read it. Um, and you don't want spoiled, you know, uh, have a great day. And, uh, you know, stop by and see the rest of the chat when, uh, when you're done with it. But, um, I I think one thing just to start with spoilers, let's let's talk talk about the plotting a little bit.

[00:19:32]>> Sure. Um because we do have these twin timelines and we see that um you know that that our main character, the priest, is is broken in the the second timeline and you're trying to wonder what happened with him and he starts to you know feed those breadcrumbs um throughout. Um I thought in addition to just the book getting better, I felt the second half the pacing was better because it wasn't as disjunct. Um, and and I I get it because I think writing a kind of a dual timeline story is tough because you have to introduce characters on both timelines and you have to make it kind of enough that you're compelled.

[00:20:10]And I did have a little bit of struggle in the first like 100 pages because it was bouncing back and forth so much. But I think once it was established and she was able to stick into each timeline longer, um I felt that corresponded exactly when I started to enjoy the book a lot.

[00:20:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Uh I do think you you have you're on to something about that. Like it does uh it does build as it's as it takes it takes its time in the first half as we're establishing relationships and establishing the whole mission. So, I feel like the story does go all the way back to when uh Amelio meets all this found family that goes with him on this expedition and then from there we end up getting to the point in which we start out in the second timeline at the very beginning.

[00:21:03]So, yeah. No, I agree with that. Don't know if I have much to add to the plot, but >> but I thought that was I mean that was one of the many things I thought that got better. And this being a debut novel, I mean, maybe that's just, you know, learning as you go. And, you know, I mean, who knows today's, you know, publishing. I mean, granted, this is 30 years ago. Um, how much an editor editor really does because it seems like I always used to think editors were really really um contributed a lot to a lot of stories, but it seems like that's not always the case. So, part of this might have been on the job training with her, just learning kind of how to start the story and get it going. Yeah, >> yeah, that was part of it. But, uh, you know, you mentioned family. I did I did find it interesting. I was thinking about the the different, you know, main characters here, and it seemed like they were all except for the found family.

[00:21:54]Well, except for the couple, they they didn't none of them had a family. Like, none of them had anything. You know, you had a priest who's, you know, he's he's a priest, so he doesn't, you know, have have a a traditional family anymore. Um, you get the um I forgot her name already. I'm horrible with character names. Um, the the kind of the intellectual prostitute where she was, you know, doing doing good deeds and and making money like she had no family. Um, >> I forgot her name, too.

[00:22:26]>> Yeah, the couple the couple had the family, but they were a childless family. And it just seemed like every character, you know, there were no there were no traditional family units here.

[00:22:36]um until they kind of found one another um in this in the story.

[00:22:42]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:44]>> I should write down character names when I read books because I'm like after I've read the book, I forget character names like >> is it Sophia? Is that the girl's name?

[00:22:52]Okay. Yeah. So Sophia definitely did not have a family. Um >> Jimmy had a strange relationship with his mother to some degree. I got the impression >> though he did have a mother. Uh, and then like yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think that that made it so it actually served a couple of purposes in a way. It served so that I think that the question of going out on this space expedition wasn't quite as big a decision for them because you know what are we leaving behind? Yeah. But then the second matter of it was uh that once they are on that other planet they have to consider uh the possibility like when Sophia and that other guy screw up. They look so so ee. What happens is they get to the planet. Uh they start to establish a connection with a certain race of aliens there called the Oh my goodness. I'm >> Ruan or >> Oh. Oh gosh, >> there were two of them. Yeah.

[00:23:53]>> Yeah, there were two of them. I'm thinking of the first one. There was there's this benign species there that they come across who is very gentle and kind and curious and and and this this species they they get along with really well but at a certain point they find them kind of boring [laughter] which is interesting. Um but this one there's a Janna Ata and the uh runa is it runa?

[00:24:17]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:19]>> Yeah. The runa. So, the runa species are very kind, very loving, and affectionate and tender. And this is so when it comes to I'm going to backtrack a little bit.

[00:24:30]I'm so sorry. Um, well, let me finish the point I was going to make actually.

[00:24:34]So, when they get there, they they find out at a certain point that they have screwed up in terms of their capsule to get back on the ship, like getting enough fuel to get back to Earth. And as a result, they realize they might have to stay on this planet for the rest of their lives. And so, in a way, becoming this found family makes it all the more realistic to them. Like, they're able to adapt this idea of like, okay, this is the last of my humankind family. Like, this is what I have left and and what I have to connect to. So, I think it served that purpose as well. So, I'll just finish with that point and we can go on from there, too.

[00:25:13]>> Yeah. No, that's a good point. And I think that's one aspect. Um, I like that. I don't I'm not huge on like hard science. Um, and this was not hard science, but I do like that it gave you very clearly that, you know, the concept of when you're faster than light speed, you're traveling at a different pace.

[00:25:31]Um, you know, you're you're I I forget the term, but your conception of time passes at a different speed than her. So that they knew that basically when they came back like most of the people they knew would be dead um you know if they got back because they would be traveling. I guess it's um theory of relativity I think is broiled in there.

[00:25:52]But it didn't give it the high science treatment which I like. Um and I think so many times like space exploration is not portrayed that that way in science fiction at least in the things I've read. Uh, like I know the the Forever Award did a really good job of this. Um, just talking about the the the temporal aspects of of time where you're perceiving it differently because you know when when Alio gets back in 2060 or whatever, he's just a couple years older, but you know, like 40 years have passed on Earth. Um, so I think that's I think that side of it um, you know, certainly time debt. Yeah, that's it.

[00:26:27]Um, you know, that side of it certainly I thought was was portrayed pretty well.

[00:26:31]And I think you're right because of these characters were unconnected except for the couple that went um it did make it again maybe maybe again maybe it was a convenience to to make it easier for all of those characters to travel. Um of course the Jesuits they'll they'll do it because that's their that's their calling and that's what they do but the other characters I guess um you know that's a different different uh situation.

[00:26:56]>> Right. Right. Uh, and I I will go backwards a little bit from here because the quote that you quoted, Eevee, I like I said, I also wrote that down. And I think that this is to me why it was so highly telegraphed that the ending would be as terrible as it is. Um, and that is because it says here, following what you read, it says it was at the moment that he learned truly to fear God. And at that moment, I'm like, "Oh, wow. God is to be feared. Why is God to be feared?"

[00:27:31]Whereas all the other Yazuitits, they're under this impression that he's having a crisis of faith because he betrayed God.

[00:27:37]And I'm like, I I knew. I was like, "No, he didn't betray God. He feels God betrayed him or God showed himself to be something to be feared." And so obviously, he discovered something really bad on this planet that shows the darkest side of God possible. And uh and obviously he's scarred. He has migraines. He has PTSD. He has scarred hands. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to add that and we'll get there, but basically what happens on this planet is that they come across that species like we were talking about the runa and then after everything seems great and peaceful, what happens to Alio as a result of that is like throughout the journey of the book he you get the sense of how he became a gazuit that he comes from a very troubled past and it was maybe the only possibility he thought he saw for having some sort of meaningful existence. It seemed very existential to me the reasons why he joined the faith, which is interesting because I always thought the Yazuitits had to be so devout uh that they had to feel this really strong real calling from God. And I mean, I think every priest has to feel that. But it seemed like his arrival at that decision was still not as intimate as other people. like he doesn't feel like he has had the voice of God talk to him. He hasn't felt like he had this that has this strong personal connection to God. And there is some I think there is some nuance in how that's described at times. But what happens for him is when he gets to the planet and he meets this species who are so kind and gentle and loving and he's able to because of his facility with language communicate with them and and build a bridge to understand one another to to be able to communicate. It's like he has this incredible spiritual revelation of like this is my calling. this is the most beautiful thing in the world and like hallelujah like this is the the the most blissful possible experience he could have because of this experience. So I I just want to make that clear that that's really important to the faith part of his journey from going from maybe a a troubled past existential commitment to feeling all one with God. Like there's even a line that talks about that like feeling he's discovered God. This is the beauty of God. So, speaking to that theme you were talking about, Josh.

[00:30:09]>> Yeah. And I think it's I think it's just so fascinating that um you you gave this character this supreme command of languages, which in itself I found fascinating because I'm sure there's people like that, people that can, you know, pick up languages really, really easily. And um when it was interesting the way that's that the author broke that down at times when he was explaining how things worked. I found all of that fascinating. So, I don't know if that's just if that's linguistics or if linguistics in any ways is a is a branch of anthropology in some way that you know she knew all of that. But I found all of that interesting. And then but like what you're talking about the scenes where he's communicating with with these this first alien race and uh from the the eyes of the others like one of the other Jesuits writes back to earth saying you know like he is a saint that we need to you know elevate him to saintthood be from what I'm seeing here. Um and uh but but what I found interesting was after that after we start to when you start to really learn who they've interacted with because for so long cuz they there's time jumps in here, you know, for so long they're trying to discover deeper things like for him he's trying to discover, you know, their faith. He's trying to discover those sorts of things. and you start to realize that this this sentient species either isn't super intelligent um or they're just very underdeveloped and uh that's when you find out about this other sentient species which changes the the entire story. Um that's something I really liked about this book too. I I read a I wish I remembered I read a science fiction book long time ago maybe 20 years ago at least 15 years ago that was a story about like modernday story where one of the other off offshoots of homo sapiens like survived and they were kind of like clairvoyant.

[00:32:06]And I just found it so fascinating because you know like evolution you know certain certain um you know species kind of die out certain species thrive. Uh so I found it very interesting in this story how we got two sentient species on this planet and um we got to really know the first one and then we get to know the second one. we find out they're very very different and that the first ones the the runa you know they're kind of like surfs they're kind of like indentured servants for this the second ones um and so that part I I really enjoyed that aspect of it because I thought that was just a really interesting concept that I really except the one science fiction story I could think about I hadn't really seen this anywhere so like anytime I'm reading and I see something new it's it's something that I'm if I if I like the idea I love the idea if it's something new for me Yeah. Yeah. So, so I guess we can go ahead and reveal since Evie hasn't read it. This is actually serving the discussion in a way because then we're kind of forced to talk through >> a recap.

[00:33:06]>> Yeah. So, basically this other species that they discover, the Janna Ata, I think is what they are called. That might be slightly off, but they they discover there's another species that is uh I guess up the hierarchy, if you will, on this planet, and that they use the runa species basically like cattle that they they end up picking them at times uh and like farming them or eating them. And so they get a pretty uncomfortable confrontation with that.

[00:33:44]Uh there's a little more to it than that, but did you want to add anything about the Janna Ata species, Josh? One thing I found very interesting was um something that when the humans discovered it and they started talking about it, some were horrified, but then Amelia was able to say, you know, this is just what they've they've done with is basically they had a form of population control with not just the runa, but with the them as well. I mean, they were only allowed to, you know, produce children if they were, you know, a certain level and things like that. and and um because the one thing they notice when they first go to the city is the first thing they notice is they're going through the city and there's like there's no poverty, there's no homelessness, there's no anything like that. And then they find out why and they find out because they basically call the population or control the population.

[00:34:40]And it's one of those the humans are horrified by it. But Alio's saying,"Well, you know, is it worse to have, you know, too many people that we cannot feed, that we cannot clothe, that we cannot house?" And so I found that little just reveal of this new species very interesting, even though from our perspective, it's kind of a dark and and evil thing. You know, I thought uh she was able to kind of give you both sides of of um that kind of issue. I feel like that's very anti-atholic, too, to say, "Oh, well, you know, maybe it's for the best that we call this species that's so not Catholic."

[00:35:16]>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

[00:35:17]>> Viewpoint. Um, but yeah. Uh, so yeah, exactly. So they find this way to to call the species as Josh said. And what and the other thing we should probably mention is that gender works completely flipped when it comes to I think it was just it was just the the runa, right?

[00:35:38]Where the genders are flipped. So, so even the runa, they mistook all the male characters for female characters and and so it's it's it's like the females are the ones who are more of the protectors and >> uh yeah, it's just like a very flipped gender dynamic. Um, and that was interesting. And then the the big Oh, sorry. Did you have a g to say something? No, I was just I was just going to say after you were done that um as you guys are talking um you know it's this obviously seems like a more sociological cultural anthropology type look at these this these species both of these species and it's just reminding me of Shroud by AdrienChaikovski.

[00:36:26]Oh, interesting. I was thinking more of Luin, but yeah, I haven't read >> I know Tchaikovski is inspired by Luin.

[00:36:32]So, there you go. Yeah, >> you know. Um, but yeah, so Shroud is like basically a anthropological look at aliens and really who are the aliens? Is it the h are the humans aliens? Are the aliens aliens? Like it's really interesting the that's all that I was thinking of as you were you guys are talking. Like wonder if Adrien Tchaikovski read the Sparrow and took some inspiration there.

[00:36:58]>> Am I incorrect in saying that Steven Ericson's an anthropologist?

[00:37:02]>> I think he is. Isn't he? Yeah.

[00:37:05]Archaeologist.

[00:37:06]Anthropologist. Yeah.

[00:37:09]>> One of the >> archaeologist. Ar I know he was an archaeologist.

[00:37:11]>> Okay. I thought he was an anthropologist for some reason. I mean I mean both fields are fascinating.

[00:37:16]>> Gosh, I I don't know. Now I'm like >> Yeah, I'm not sure either. It just looks in my head. because that would make Okay, we got to Yeah, I mean that would that would make sense because um like his in Malaz and how well he's able to develop the different cultures and make them seem so distinct.

[00:37:35]>> Um so I mean that that kind of makes sense.

[00:37:38]>> Yeah. I want to say he's both though.

[00:37:41]Maybe I should look that up. I don't know. Um but yeah. Yeah. Uh there's definitely quite a bit I think of thought put into that. And what additionally can be a scientific element that's brought into the story is that they have the humans of course brought seeds >> and they brought seeds. This is part of the tragedy is that they brought these seeds >> as like a peace offering as something they could contribute. And >> unfortunately this doesn't go well. Uh what ends up happening if I recall correctly and it's been over a month now since I've read the book. So please correct me. Uh but what ends up happening is that as they feed the runa species, it causes them to go into a f fertility cycle into um estrus. And so they end up populating too much and this causes a mass butchery episode with the John Ata coming through.

[00:38:44]>> Yeah. Take it. Take it Josh. What else?

[00:38:46]>> Yeah. And and along the lines with that is um also realizing the runa just through their interactions with the humans realize that yes they're they're subjugated but they're also there's more of them and that starts to scare um the Jonoata or however you say it. Um so that's another reason for them to you know continue kind of the the butchery the domestication of this other of this other species. But it's in that butchery that that several of our characters get killed because they, you know, they see that them coming in and they're killing children and they try to get in the way and they're just they're just butchered right alongside them. Um, you know, that's kind of that's kind of the the beginning of the end um of the story.

[00:39:30]And there's some horrific very horrific things after that.

[00:39:33]>> Um, like the last the last 50 pages of this was brutal. I mean, just total total brutality. um at the end of this book um which I guess you know looking back some of it was like you said Joanna you you kind of saw it coming like some of it was broadcast but some of it I didn't see coming and then I like realized like just beforehand like what was going to happen so it wasn't like a big um big surprise like when he like he when he kills um when he's in the cell and he's in the cell forever and he just decides he's going to attack whoever opens the door next. And then he unfortunately kills the one Runa child that was was his, you know, um I don't know what connection you'd call them, but uh and then I remember back that he had mentioned that he killed her um like way early in the book.

[00:40:27]>> Yeah.

[00:40:27]>> Um so that I guess was was I guess some of the breadcrumbs were laid, but um what happened to Alio I didn't think was it still shocked me when I found out.

[00:40:38]>> Yeah. I I I want to go and add one thing too is that so Alio and I think one other priest was it Mark I can't remember there was another he and one other priest get taken prisoner while everybody else gets butchered so the old married couple Sophia Jimmy all of them are dead and so it's it's one thing to endure that form of a shock and as they're taking him prisoner he's trying so hard to refuse food because the food that they offer them is that of the runa. It's the that's what they eat. So that's the meat that they're offering him. Um and yeah, and so uh that there's that tragedy. And then when they the thing is like at the beginning they do make it clear that his crimes are that he ends up killing the one child that he was very bonded to, who looked up to him, who had this special connection to him, who Yeah. And so he he's accused of that crime. He's additionally accused of the crime of being in a brothel and he's I think there might have been another crime involved as well. And so, like I said, I already knew I had in my head I'm like, he's the victim, but how is he the victim? And how because I I could see the priests were seeing it one way and that this is not correct. And then what we find out is that when he's taken prisoner, and this this was clever, and I I didn't catch this until the end, but um he he's taken prisoner and he's thrown into this cell and he gets sodomized and beaten and it's of the I want to say it's like connected to the musician who ends up who is the one who's broadcasted the music that brought them to the planet in the first place.

[00:42:24]So, they originally go on, they originally find out about this uh other life because there are music signals that come through that Jimmy hears. And when he hears the music signals, they're like, "Oh, it's like music of the spheres. It's this beautiful harmonious connection that we're going to have with another species." And so, at the end, the tragedy of that is that that's the music. The music is playing. And the music not only is playing while he's being sodomized and beaten uh and demeaned after the tragedy of losing his fam his fam found family, but there the music is mocking him at the same time.

[00:43:01]It's it's mocking him as he's getting as he's getting abused. Uh so it's uh yeah and it's it's pretty bad. Like I I I thought okay it delivered it delivered on how bad >> it reported to be at the very beginning.

[00:43:17]Um and so again this going and the the crisis of faith going on from there is that his issue is that he has to uh believe in God.

[00:43:30]The there oh man I wrote this down and now I don't have my journal in front of me but the idea is that if he believes in God he has to he has he has to believe it. There's this crisis between believing in God and then fearing God versus being an atheist and fearing himself. I remember there was some kind of split like that in his faith at the end. But maybe you remember better than I do. It's been a while.

[00:43:57]>> Yeah, I don't I don't remember that exact argument there. But uh for me the the the powerful part was, you know, we in the the the later timeline, we see this broken character that's that's struggling PTSD. he doesn't want to talk to anybody and he doesn't want to um you know deal with what had happened.

[00:44:16]Doesn't even want to say what had happened and he's accused of these crimes that he was you know vol that he was voluntarily in this brothel and all of this and then when you get to the big reveal where he finally breaks down and says I was raped. um when he gets to that moment, you realize that the father superior or whatever knew this all along and just kind of had to break him back down for him to realize and to accept that he was a victim. Um and I guess part of the the the trial of faith is, you know, why would a why would a just god allow something like this? Um, and if there, you know, if there is a god, why why would why would he or she let us to let us go through this? Um, so I I liked the the second half character journey of of Amelio as he finally, you know, confronted that and then you could almost see after that scene how um just kind of that that singular moment of him admitting how he had been victimized, how he changed after that and he was able to, you know, not just break down and and uh, you know, want to be sleeping all the time and and staying away and uh talking to everybody that he could actually start to heal from what what he went through. Um and all of that kind of came I mean you look back and it kind of makes sense but it still came as a bit of a surprise to me just the way that that unfolded. Um, I think the one thing that was also just thinking about this parallel with this, a lot of times when we have religion in fiction, especially in like science fiction, it always seems like the the the religious folks are either the good guys or they're demonized. And I didn't feel that, you know, she picked a side here because like the the way that they treated him, some of them, the the priests trying to get to the bottom of this were horrible.

[00:46:13]And then you realize some of them were just totally empathetic towards what had happened and and especially the one that knew what was happening. It was just trying to get him to get to a point where he could start to start to heal.

[00:46:26]So I did like that aspect of it because I think a lot of times religion in fiction is portrayed very black and white and I think she did a good job at kind of giving you both black and white in this story.

[00:46:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and another thing and and I'm going to leave here in a second so I can go get my journal in the other room and find what I was talking about because I feel so bad that I don't have that quote in front of me. But uh I I also add though that um yeah, I think that the other thing that she does when it comes to the priest's journey is that she gives you in the future timeline in the60 timeline, he's interacting with a few other priests and he's learning about what brings them to the priesthood and uh how like for example, one guy becomes a priest because his wife tragically dies in a car accident. he is responsible for. He's sick. He needs to get a tissue. He reaches into the glove compartment, loses control of the car, car crashes, his wife dies, and then he decides to become a priest. And then, additionally, it talks about the people who come into the priesthood never having had sex before. And so there's a lot of discuss not a lot but there is discussion in this book about celibacy and how priests and then it's kind of silly but it's like how priests take care of it and this whole kind of joke about well it's because we have hands and then at the end he doesn't have functional hands. [laughter] >> I'll be right back.

[00:47:58]>> Yeah, Eevee he's he's torture when he's tortured they disfigure his hands. Yeah, that that we see at the start like he's all like he has to wear the g special gloves or whatever or someone develops the special gloves for him. So, >> I thought that was interesting.

[00:48:12]>> And it's it's he doesn't realize at the time that he's going to be tortured because the two species speak different languages. So, he really only has one character that he can talk to because he's learned the runa language. Uh so he can only talk to this one character who understands this language who ends up turning out to be, you know, the kind of a the primary villain here. Um so because of that, he doesn't even realize what's happening to him when he's kind of taken to this capital city and and all of this.

[00:48:44]>> Okay, I found it. I I got it right. It sounds like I got it right.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah. which is that, you know, he needs to believe in God, but if he does believe in God, then the cost is terrifying because it's that idea of like a god that would do such a horrible thing. And uh but if he becomes an atheist, he blames himself. Uh so I don't know. Uh interesting. I thought it was also interesting though too because there's a quote earlier in the book that talks about like when the priests are talking with him uh yeah it says like there's a priest who is in a conversation with him and I don't know exactly what scene this is uh there's no form of death or violence that Yuit missionaries have not met Yuits have been hanged drawn and quartered in London disembowled in Ethiopia, burned alive, uh poisoned, crucified, starved to death, beheaded, drowned, and it goes into all these places. I'm not going to go through all that. We have been terrorized and intimidated. We have been reviled, falsely accused, imprisoned for life. We have been beaten, maimed, sodomized, tortured, and broken. So, I thought it was interesting because that's I think at the trial or no, maybe it's just with one of the with the the general, the Yazuit general. So, he's going through the list of all the horrible things that Yowits have gone in the past. And I mean, if you look at Catholic history, uh the history with the martyrs is grueling. It's awful. So, I don't know.

[00:50:24]Well, I I I I don't know that the point she made in this book, it was bad. I'm not denying it's like as bad as you could possibly get, but is it worse than some of the real accounts that have happened historically?

[00:50:38]I don't know. I don't know.

[00:50:41]>> Well, you could almost even consider, you know, the Jesuits when they go to the Far East, that's almost like first contact, you know, totally different cultures and things like that. So I think um you know this is just another >> kind of similar story of of perhaps and maybe that's why she you know included the Jesuits because that's historically something that that's been part of their order. Um but I don't I don't know in necessarily 2026 if that's still the case or not. But I do know that uh like one aspect that really hit me really close is when they um decided to fund the mission. It was like this and you know I I was at the Vatican museums in March and like there's a lot of money there. So >> I can easily sell a couple paintings and and go to space in a minute. So uh you know that that that felt real very real to me.

[00:51:35]>> Got it. Yeah. Yeah. I I did like that description of what the Vatican is like in60 because there's Yeah, like you said, there's just so much history there. I've never been myself, but that's pretty cool. You were just there, by the way. So, >> yeah. Yeah, it was. Although the the wealth makes made me a little angry because you realize like how much good they could do if they sold a lot of the art, but that's another discussion.

[00:51:57]>> Yeah, [laughter] for sure.

[00:52:00]>> Yes. Yes. Um, so, so yeah, like I said, I don't know that I I mean, it certainly does explore the theme that she was describing, uh, given the, like I said, I think you get that arc with the existential beginning of his faith journey, the moment when he feels like he's fully realized God and his purpose, and then to the end where he is he's between trying to decide which is worse, being an atheist or believing and God is real.

[00:52:31]So, I think that that that was >> that was done. That was I mean, she she achieved what she was going for. I I think it's interesting that um you kind of give these basically these you've drawn these two options and it it does seem very black and white options.

[00:52:50]>> Is there a third somewhere in the middle there that you know?

[00:52:54]>> Exactly. Yeah. I would think I mean I like I'm not I'm no longer Catholic either but I I'm certain that a Catholic would come up with a third. I'm certain like you know what I mean? Like they wouldn't say yeah they would not say oh this is because God wants you to fear him and it's not because you know you should blame yourself and be an atheist.

[00:53:18]There's a whole other little section and there it's probably shrouded in mystery.

[00:53:23]It's probably like we can't fully understand what God >> God's agenda is, but he loves you and you know this is could be just further evidence of his love that you're here and I don't know there there's there's something they would say as a creative third. That's a really good point.

[00:53:43]Yeah, but it's it I think it was a good depiction just because of the trauma of his crisis of faith at the end and it seemed very real to me >> where a lot of the again we talked at the very beginning how maybe the characterization wasn't super strong in this book. Um I thought at least the internal aspect of Amelio was was handled pretty well um as far as you know the things that he had to confront at the very end. Yeah.

[00:54:11]>> Um, one other thing I I do want to talk about is uh Sophia, was that her name?

[00:54:15]Um, >> yes, Sophia.

[00:54:17]>> So, very interesting because apparently this is kind of a thing where very rich persons will find like intelligent children in poverty, put them through school and reap the benefits of their education. Like I thought this was a total total fabrication, but apparently this is something that actually goes on.

[00:54:38]Had you had you heard of Have you had you heard of this or am I just in in the dark about this?

[00:54:44]>> I've heard stories of that. Yeah.

[00:54:47]>> Which I find just fascinating. And which for her she was fine with it because it wasn't it wasn't sexual prostitution.

[00:54:53]It's intellectual prostitution where she's trained to do all these things.

[00:54:57]But you know she has basically this I mean for lack of a better term a pimp who h gives her jobs to do and you know they get most of the money. she gets some of the money um but had brought her out of poverty. I found that aspect of that character just very interesting. Uh the character itself was fine. Um you know I I didn't really have a deep connection to the character or anything, but the idea of the character I thought was like something I'd never seen before. And then like you you do a couple Google searches and you realize like, oh yeah, this this actually happens. Um which kind of blew my mind a little bit. I I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but I seem to remember that we find out much worse has happened to her in her past as well.

[00:55:44]>> Well, yeah, she was she was >> trafficked. Was that the idea? Yeah, she was originally and then somebody that, you know, purchased her for potentially the sexual purposes, you know, found out she was intelligent and then just realized and um, you know, realized that she could be so much more and could make money for them and um, >> I just I just found that just so interesting. Um, >> yeah, I think that that's like and maybe that was her situation in which uh, indentured servitude. Yeah.

[00:56:18]>> Yeah.

[00:56:19]>> Yeah. Maybe it was a situation of I'd way rather be intellectual property than being sexually or whatever. So, >> well, and I think she I think she did say that at one point where it was a it was a better option for her, but uh like the you know, the older couple, they were horrified about it >> and then they eventually, you know, they eventually are the ones that were able to, you know, kind of buy her freedom.

[00:56:42]Um but uh yeah, I just found that very interesting because that's something um like I hadn't seen before and then you find out like yeah this it's kind of a thing.

[00:56:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh I didn't realize that either honestly. So interesting. Um yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I have anything to add to that. She became such a strong love interest in the story. You got the impression that she was a source of temptation for Amelio and there was a hovering question throughout the story of whether he was going to break his vows to be with her or if there was going to be some kind of love triangle that emerged between him and >> and Jimmy or whatever.

[00:57:24]>> I thought her marriage came out of nowhere because I thought that uh I thought that she was really in love with Alio even though they couldn't love one another. Um and then all of a sudden, oh, she's married. Oh, she's pregnant.

[00:57:36]Okay, here we go.

[00:57:37]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, >> that that kind of came out of nowhere for me.

[00:57:40]>> Yeah, it did feel like it very rushed that whole section.

[00:57:45]Agreed.

[00:57:46]>> I think it I think in general the time jumps didn't bother me though, except maybe that one. Um I think the time jumps kept things moving forward and kept it realistic. You know, I think sometimes in stories like this, you know, you learn too much too fast and and it uh doesn't seem real, but when you find out, oh, they've been here two years, living them of the runa, you know, and and you find out that all the things they've learned, it it makes makes a lot of sense, >> you know. Uh, another book that does the dual timeline that I love is The Dispossessed by Ursula Ka.

[00:58:17]>> Yeah, I need to read that.

[00:58:18]>> I don't know if you'll like it. I I'll be honest, like I I feel like I have a special love of that book. Devi, have you read that one? I can't remember.

[00:58:26]>> I have. I uh It's not my favorite Leguin, but I see why people despise it and I see why people adore it.

[00:58:38]>> Basically, just like Jared Henderson, maybe Pete and >> I I really like it. It's one of probably the most I love it >> intellectually stimulating books I've ever read.

[00:58:50]>> Yeah, I I I was surprised how much it got me emotionally, too. So, I don't know. I feel like I'm alone on the hill.

[00:58:57]I think like I said, just like Jared Henderson and me were just like the only dispossessed stands. But otherwise, I feel like most people don't love it. But um but yes, it does it does a dual timeline in a different way. It doesn't dual timeline to meet in the middle the way this one does, but at the same time it I I love the way that she handled that that structure. Banks use of weapons. I keep hearing so much about the culture series. I It was going to be my choice for the book club pick at one point, but then I changed my mind. [laughter] >> But we have many more quarters to continue.

[00:59:35]>> That's true. That's true. By the way, did we say what whose books the Sparrow was?

[00:59:41]>> Oh, we didn't. Go ahead. Whose was it?

[00:59:43]>> Was it me? It was me.

[00:59:46]>> Yes. [laughter] I don't think we ever made that clear. So, >> it was my pick. So, sorry. Sorry. But I loved it. So, hey, [laughter] >> I ended up reading both my pick and your pick that month. I read uh Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang >> which was a 1976 award-winning book I think in science fiction and it has to do with cloning and it's post-apocalyptic uh standalone and so yeah. Yeah. Um I'm glad though that this one because uh obviously we're late this week saying that was on my science fiction TBR. This book almost made it onto my science fiction TBR video because I had it on the shelf but I was like I already have that 10. I probably shouldn't add another one, but it worked out because I actually own the book. So, yeah. And then Eevee, you chose the Jin. What? Gollum.

[01:00:35]>> Oh, Gollum and the Genie, which >> I am reading right now. So, >> Oh, do you like it >> so far? Yeah, I I'm really liking it.

[01:00:43]It's very The way that I've described it uh in the one message that I pretty much have sent about it is um it's very magical.

[01:00:55]writing, not in like a fantastic sense, but in more of a wondrous sense of it.

[01:01:00]Um, and Helen Gwer is really balancing the historical with the fantastical really well. So >> nice.

[01:01:09]>> Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it's always nice to add science fiction into Is that science fiction? Actually, maybe I should ask.

[01:01:16]>> It's it's I think it's it's in the literary fiction section, but it's really fantasy.

[01:01:23]>> Oh, okay. fantasy.

[01:01:25]>> What's interesting is I found this in the literary section of a used bookstore. It wasn't in the science fiction fantasy section either. So >> cool.

[01:01:34]>> I think that all just all depends on who's filing them. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> probably. Yeah, >> because I because I often see like Ishiguro I've seen in both. He seems to be more in the literary side.

[01:01:45]>> Probably more literary. Yeah, >> but sorry. Claire and the Sun science fiction. [laughter] >> Oh, it is 100% science fiction. Have you read it? That's That's the only one I've read. Yeah.

[01:01:54]>> Oh, I didn't know you read it.

[01:01:55]>> I read it when it came out. Yeah. So, like way before everybody else, but um >> Yeah.

[01:01:59]>> Yeah.

[01:02:01]>> Definitely science fiction. Yes, >> for sure. Well, any final thoughts on The Sparrow? Um Eevee, did we uh convince you to ever pick it up again?

[01:02:11]>> I I mean, honestly, yeah, I think so.

[01:02:14]It's just one that I'm probably going to have to reset my expectations. I mean, obviously now I know it's very slow slow moving having started it. So, I'm just going to have to meet the book where it needs to be met. Like, my expectations were like, "Oh, it's this is science fiction. It's going to be like not fast-paced, but I didn't did not expect how slow the introduction and the buildup to the to the I guess the the plot was going to be. Um, so now that I've reset my expectations, we've discussed it, I know what to expect. Um, I'm hoping I will enjoy it. So >> maybe you'll get along with the humor more than I do [laughter] it.

[01:02:55]>> Maybe.

[01:02:57]>> See, I just I just glossed straight through the humor.

[01:03:00]>> It didn't really I guess it didn't bother me enough that, you know, I didn't I didn't laugh out loud at any point either. So >> yeah. Yeah. It was just one of those things. I didn't think it would bother me as much because I was like, well, you know, maybe it won't land for me, but maybe I'll really enjoyed the story. And I was surprised how much it just clashed. It was like a tonal tonal clash for me personally. But but yeah, like I said, good good things in the story as well. Um I don't know. [laughter] And I guess I'll just reiterate just again based on what I'm hearing from Josh and Joanna how they're describing the totality of this book. Go read Shroud by Adrien Triikovski.

[01:03:39]>> Oh, there you go.

[01:03:40]>> I wrote it down, too. So, yeah. I mean, I I loved I mean, the the things I loved, I think Joanna, you appreciated >> Yeah. in this book like the the anthropological side of things, the scientific side of things, even if there were I mean, even though I I really like the book. I mean, I admit there there are the flaws in there, but um you know, I I certainly enjoyed my time with it.

[01:04:03]>> Cool. Nice. Yeah.

[01:04:04]>> All right. Well, thank you all in the chat that came and hung out. I know this was early. Normally, we give like the whole month to read it, but we had uh just scheduling issues with with all of us and uh a lot of travel and all that all of that. So, uh, thank you for hanging out. If you're here on team replay, you know, drop us a comment below and then just stay tuned. We will do another fireside read. We'll put up a poll, I guess, in we'll put up a poll in September to read together something in October. So, uh, you can come and vote on the fireside fireside book club and um, we will, uh, we'd love to talk with you about whatever we read in October.

[01:04:41]So, thank you Eevee and Joanna. This was a great chat. Thank you again for the chat and everybody have a good rest of your afternoon.

[01:04:49]>> Bye.

[01:04:50]>> Thank you.