Inside Goa | Episode 4 | Seema Mustafa in Conversation with Tino de Sa and Sheela Jaywant

[00:00:00]Through what language is the [music] essence of Goa best captured?

[00:00:03]>> To me, it's Konkani.

[00:00:05]>> I think the what makes the difference [music] in Goa, literacy rates are also high.

[00:00:10]>> I think writing is important if people [music] read. Otherwise, sometimes it's the oral that works better. The Goan identity or the ness goykarponn as we say is certainly getting diluted.

[00:00:26]Hello everyone. Welcome to Inside Goa, where we crack the myths, where we bust the stereotypes, and we bring you voices from within Goa to tell you as it is.

[00:00:40]In this episode, we have two seasoned writers and poets who are both passionate about the written word.

[00:00:48]Both are from Goa, but both have spent their lives or a larger portion of their lives outside Goa.

[00:00:55]Sheila Jayawant, who has set up home in many states across India, has written for national papers actually from 1983, and she writes humorous column for Goan newspapers.

[00:01:08]She has won many awards, and she is also a mountaineer. Sheila, we didn't know that about you.

[00:01:16]And has worked in a hospital, in a hotel, and is presently an administrator for three schools in Goa.

[00:01:25]Tino de Sa, an IAS officer, an author, and poet.

[00:01:30]From Harvard University to IAS, where he I think was the longest serving chief secretary in Madhya Pradesh till date, well almost till date.

[00:01:44]Uh he writes prose, he loves poetry. He is from this Goan island Divar, which is actually very romantic because the residents there don't allow a bridge. They want to remain away from the mainland and the influx of tourists.

[00:02:01]And he's currently writing a readable history of Goa.

[00:02:06]Welcome both of you and so glad you guys have come.

[00:02:10]Let me ask you both a question. You can answer it any which way. Is Goa easier to live in or easier to write about?

[00:02:19]>> Well, you see uh I've come back come to Goa just 4 or 5 years ago having lived my life outside Goa. I was born outside Goa. My father was born outside Goa. So, we really coming after you know, three generations. Though we always [clears throat] had our links with Goa.

[00:02:37]But uh my previous experiences of Goa have always been just the mere holidays, you know. Though we did come and live in Diwar and went away and that kind of thing.

[00:02:48]But living in Goa is uh quite different from what people imagine Goa to be. And uh you know, people only think of Goa as a as a holiday destination. And for Goans like me who have also lived outside Goa, Goa also has been just a holiday.

[00:03:08]Living here, one sees and particularly now, you know, earlier on the problems were different. My village didn't have electricity.

[00:03:17]Uh we didn't have plumbing. So, but we had wells in front. We water had to be drawn from the wells. We had to use lamps.

[00:03:25]Fans were not even required. We didn't feel the the the the loss of it. But Goa living in Goa is a different kettle of fish and living in Goa today, you know, the infrastructure doesn't hold up. Uh it's not inexpensive. It's quite expensive living here.

[00:03:43]>> Yes.

[00:03:44]>> So, I think that one one faces all these problems. But writing about Goa, but I suppose that would apply to any place. Writing about some place is >> Easier. easier than actually having to experience it.

[00:03:58]>> Sheila?

[00:03:59]>> So for me any gated community like the housing societies that we see in Dona Paula, or Vasco, these places are no different from living in Bombay.

[00:04:11]It's cosmopolitan. You have the same kind of people who've been to the same kind of schools, or they've lived similar lives, and they've just transferred that to Goa. But if somebody like me, who like he said, you know, my village did not have electricity or plumbing till 1973 or even after that.

[00:04:29]>> So for me, and I still live in a village where uh Diwali is not important, but Tulasi Lagna is.

[00:04:35]>> Mhm.

[00:04:36]>> Nag Panchami is. Holi is not. Shigmo is.

[00:04:40]>> Yes.

[00:04:40]>> So uh it is uh it's a different Goa. So I kind of straddle two worlds.

[00:04:46]One is the cosmopolitan world, and many of my family members have not married to married Goans.

[00:04:54]In fact, my uh eldest Mama, he was amongst the first Hindus to marry a Portuguese woman in 1948, when Portugal was still kind of enemy.

[00:05:06]>> So is this straddling very difficult?

[00:05:08]>> No, not at all. Not at all.

[00:05:09]>> No, not at all. And is one losing, one side losing, and the other gaining?

[00:05:13]>> Yes.

[00:05:14]>> That's happening.

[00:05:15]>> Yes, yeah, yeah. The Goan identity or the "Goenkarponn" as we say is >> certainly getting diluted, but that's evolution.

[00:05:23]>> That's because Goa is so small. I mean, not only geographically, even population wise. So uh influxes of population and changes have a magnified effect here. Uh a more magnified effect than they would in a larger place.

[00:05:40]>> Yes. Yes. And it's feeling that also, because it got liberated in in 1960s, right?

[00:05:46]>> 61.

[00:05:47]>> 61. So, it's feeling that it's later this kind of uh what should I say, influx of people and other Indians having found Goa and moved on here.

[00:05:58]>> COVID.

[00:05:59]>> More after COVID. It was not so rapid before that.

[00:06:01]>> Right. So, you know, uh through you and uh through others, I discovered the literary Goa literary writers group. And it's an amazing group which which does a lot of work. It's very dedicated, very committed to writing. It meets regularly. It organizes the Goa literary festival.

[00:06:22]And there's so many storytellers who come together all the time through this group. It's a very very active group. Um is there any reason that you think, Tino, that they it seems that there are a lot of storytellers that that have grown indigenously through Goa? There are lots There's quantity and there is quality.

[00:06:42]Is there any reason? Does it lend itself to storytelling?

[00:06:45]>> See, I I Again, uh you know, to say that there is a storytelling um uh tradition in Goa, uh there is, but I it's difficult to say that this is exclusive to Goa. I mean, there are There's a storytelling traditions all over India. I mean, I've lived in other parts of the country and there has been storytelling There have been storytelling traditions everywhere.

[00:07:12]But but I think the what makes the difference in Goa, uh and not just in Goa, but I would say in places like Kerala and other places, that literacy rates are also high. So, this tradition of storytelling which has remained more oral in other parts of India, in those parts of India where education is higher, it has more earlier on translated also to the written word.

[00:07:39]And that is why uh you one one would imagine that yes, there are uh proportionately a larger number of people who write and who write in quality. It is not because other people in other parts of India don't have stories to tell. It's just that because literacy in in the parts of India where literacy has been more widespread and where it has come earlier, this oral tradition has moved to a written tradition.

[00:08:05]>> So, the languages, you know, which you see in Goa, which we hear in Goa, and of course Konkani, which is the local language. There's English, there's Marathi, and there's Portuguese. I mean, you'll still find people, and particularly the older families, remnants of Portuguese uh spoken, or at least they understand, or they sing in that. Through what language is the essence of Goa best captured?

[00:08:29]And I'm talking now, Sheila, also of history, contemporary >> To me, it's Konkani.

[00:08:34]>> Okay. But then, you miss out Kannada and Urdu.

[00:08:37]Which are also spoken in parts of >> Goa, especially the border areas.

[00:08:42]>> Yes, absolutely.

[00:08:42]>> And Konkani, till fairly recently, was considered a dialect. It was only 1984 or '87 when it was uh included as a language, part of the schedule. So, written Goan literature is very recent. Otherwise, it used to be either in Marathi or in Portuguese, largely not in Konkani. But still, there is written Konkani in the Roman script.

[00:09:06]Especially some of the Catholic priests, they had written some amount of uh work in Konkani, written. Otherwise, it was oral. So, now talking about the Goa Writers Group, I was amongst the earliest members.

[00:09:20]>> Yes.

[00:09:20]>> Uh we have limited ourselves to writing in English. We don't have too many members who write in the other languages that you have mentioned.

[00:09:27]>> Yes. Yes, that's true. Mostly, it's English.

[00:09:30]>> In fact, I was going to say exactly what Sheila was saying. See, and when you to in what language is the spirit of Goa most authentic? I would also say certainly in Konkani. Though I myself am not adept at Konkani, I I understand it.

[00:09:45]When I attempt to speak it, I break into Hindi after a little while. But yes, because in any place, the most authentic voices would come out from Konkani. But as I was talking just, you know, Goa being a small place, influences from that can come in can sweep people off their feet. And whether we like it or not, today English seems to be the most widely spoken language in Goa.

[00:10:16]>> In Goa.

[00:10:16]>> Earlier on, Konkani lived side by side with Marathi, with Portuguese, and not so much English.

[00:10:22]>> So that brings me to the immediate question is that language, it shapes memory. Does it? And what gets lost in translation? So if it's English that's coming in without that background of Konkani or even Portuguese, then what's getting lost?

[00:10:38]The description. I'll give you examples.

[00:10:40]For example, the coconut tree, at different stages, the fruit and the leaves have different names. There's no equivalent word to these in English. I know because I do the translations. It's similarly for different kinds of rainfall.

[00:10:57]Heavy rain, very heavy rain, but each of these has a specific word in Konkani. See? The same would be true in say Iceland or Greenland where they may have different words for different kinds of snow or ice. Kashmiri in Kashmiri language, I know they have, but similarly here. So a lot gets lost in translation, sure.

[00:11:17]You think so, too? I'm sure.

[00:11:19]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. I think so, too.

[00:11:21]And but the more frightening aspect is not just that the translation is not able to reflect more, you know, in a best way what was really written. The more frightening aspect is as you mentioned that when the trans the language into which things are translated [clears throat] becomes a dominant language, it begins to affect community memory.

[00:11:44]>> Mhm.

[00:11:44]>> And people may just tend to forget that these things actually you know this variety of and and with the nuances of the mother tongue then seem to get lost in the collective memory. That to me is the uh the most frightening aspect of of this.

[00:12:02]>> So what if I asked you both to give me one example or what is actually getting lost and what you've seen getting lost in front of you?

[00:12:12]>> See see to I feel that the the the biggest blow you know Konkani as Sheila pointed out was included in the scheduled languages of the constitution in the late '80s.

[00:12:29]>> Which is pretty late.

[00:12:30]>> as a scheduled language. But but the Sahitya Akademi had already recognized it as a language and was giving awards in it even before that. So that's recognition by the Sahitya Akademi actually was was a big boost to those who believed that Konkani was a full-fledged language and not just a dialect say of Marathi. Yes, it's very closely related to Marathi but so are Oriya and Bengali.

[00:12:57]>> Yeah.

[00:12:58]>> And Assamese. That doesn't make them you know all Spanish and Portuguese or whatever.

[00:13:01]>> Doesn't make them the same language.

[00:13:03]>> They have grown together from the same root side by side. Whatever. That's a different point. Now when Konkani became you know got this status, the difficulty is that I I think that again as Sheila pointed out Konkani has two tradition two major traditions of being written in the Devanagari script which is among some of the oldest along with the Kannada script and also being written in the Roman script, or otherwise people call the English script, but actually the Roman script.

[00:13:32]There is Konkani written in the Malayalam script also, and the Kannada script also, and the the Arabic script, but principally Roman and Devanagari.

[00:13:42]Now, when Konkani became an official language, uh well, for official purposes, they also said, "We will recognize only the Devanagari script." That's fine.

[00:13:53]Sometimes, for convenience, you recognize one script. But, in practice, you have to allow, like if there are state awards, if there are you have to allow uh both kinds of scripts to to enrich the language, in fact, have a big interscript transcription, if not really not really translation, but transcription between the two. But, unfortunately, that policy has not happened, and by putting the two scripts at loggerheads with each other, the language itself is suffering. Suffers.

[00:14:28]This becomes a problem I see as a big problem, which can be sorted out. It can still be sorted out.

[00:14:34]>> Uh so, when uh Sheila, when you write humor, and uh it's is it part of Goan tradition? Because you do find that when you're speaking to a lot of Goans, there's an ironical sense of humor.

[00:14:49]There's a sense of irony often in the way they speak, or even if they're talking about going to the market. So, is it something Goan, or is this something imbibed?

[00:14:59]>> I have seen it uh largely amongst Goans, let's say, in I don't know if geography has anything to do with it, but say the humor in Jodhpur, they uh people take offense much more easily than used to be over here.

[00:15:15]Here, people are far more easygoing with their humor. You can see it in the marketplace with the fish Absolutely. see it. Also, there is a difference between It's strange, but there is a difference between say how the Catholics speak their company and Catholic humor versus how the Hindus have their humor because, you know, they involve the gods in it and it's a different category.

[00:15:39]>> Can you explain that in a little bit?

[00:15:41]>> Okay, Ram naam satya hai, murda bada mast hai.

[00:15:44]Okay.

[00:15:45]>> Yeah.

[00:15:45]>> So, this is something that would not be there in the Catholic thing. The Catholics things would have There are jokes about uh Mother Mary or there are jokes about uh Jesus visiting the Pope or Pope visiting Jesus, something like that. So, you have different categories of humor, which you don't find in other places because the communities are different.

[00:16:06]>> Right. Right. So, uh maybe you would also dwell a little bit on what Tino was talking about. The fact what while he was while he was speaking, what really came to my mind was that is Konkani literature rich like you have Tamil literature, you have Bengali literature, you have Urdu also. Is there richness in all these literatures?

[00:16:30]>> In written literature, no, because the writing part of it came much >> Much >> later. You know, if you have the data tradition when they were grinding Heta Pandit's book, for example, has grinding stories.

[00:16:41]>> Mhm.

[00:16:42]>> So, we have ova. Oviya is a kind of verse.

[00:16:45]Couplets which are sometimes made spontaneously and sometimes they are traditional.

[00:16:51]So, there are many such forms of small poems or small stories which are local, which are ancient, but not necessary written. Considering rich, long epics and texts like that, we don't have to my knowledge.

[00:17:06]But then, there's a problem, isn't there? That even like in the literary group, say the writers group, most of the people are writing in English.

[00:17:15]Why are they not writing in Konkani or why are they not more I don't mean them who's There are other platforms.

[00:17:21]>> There are other platforms. There are Konkani >> Yes, there are people who write the Konkani >> academy, you have the Delgado. There there are In fact, one of our Goa writers group is Bhai, you know, Damodar Mauzo, and he writes in Konkani. He writes in Konkani.

[00:17:34]>> I know theater. There's a lot of Konkani theater, which is >> You know something which people miss is that the first the first book ever to be printed in the Indian subcontinent. I would say the first book to be printed east of the Suez was printed in Konkani.

[00:17:53]In the Roman script, but it was a Konkani book, the first ever.

[00:17:57]>> How interesting is that?

[00:17:58]>> Within within a few decades of the Gutenberg press being invented, the Gutenberg press was, you know, was brought to Goa, and in the 1600s, a book in Konkani was published.

[00:18:13]>> How interesting.

[00:18:13]>> It was the Krist Puran.

[00:18:15]>> Yeah. [clears throat] So, what are the stories about Goa which are not being told?

[00:18:21]The stories of the migrants.

[00:18:24]Migrants haven't come here in the last 6 months. They have been coming in for a while now. When I say in recent times, at least for the last 15 to 20 years, their stories have not been really noted or told. And some of them are here now, second generation born in Goa. So, they are Goans by domicile. Some of them most of them that I come across because I live in that environment or work in that environment, they speak they put their children into Konkani medium schools, whereas Goans don't.

[00:18:55]And they speak Konkani very fluently.

[00:18:58]Why are their stories not being told? I think because we don't interact with them.

[00:19:03]>> I would say again, these stories are not being told as yet because you need to have some of them become writers too.

[00:19:10]>> Mhm.

[00:19:11]>> But even among established writers, like there was something that opened out to me myself. You see Prakash Paliencar, who also writes in Konkani.

[00:19:20]And he was he got also the Sahitya Academy Award for for for children's literature recently. But, I'm referring to another collection of his short stories, which was translated. Now, he writes in Konkani. I don't read Konkani. But, I read this collection of his, which was called the bitter truth And I was you know uh amazed and also a little bit shocked.

[00:19:50]Because all those stories are authentically Goan.

[00:19:53]But, they are from a Goa that very few people realize is also as much part of Goa. You see, we have this you see Goa itself was sort of a colonized by the Portuguese in two large in two different eras. So, one is called the old conquest, which are basically Tiswadi, Salcete, Bardez, you know, what is if you look at a map, it looks like central Goa. We say north Goa and south Goa. But, if you look at a map, it's like the central portion. But, the other parts of Goa came much later. Came 250 years later. And they were largely acquired through treaties, you know, with the ranees and with the raja of sounda and others. Now, those new conquests which are actually not 450 years under the Portuguese, but only about 200 years under the Portuguese have a not been latinized to that extent. There is a different tradition over there. And these stories of Prakash Paliencar showed me that all that is Goa, too.

[00:21:04]And I would say to an English-speaking audience, even in Goa.

[00:21:08]Those stories have not been told.

[00:21:11]Also >> Right.

[00:21:12]>> So >> Right.

[00:21:13]>> All that needs to be, you know, there needs to be a lot more translation, uh so that uh one is able to be exposed to the richness of of this heritage of only this 3,600 sq km place, but it's rich indeed with all its varied uh heritages.

[00:21:32]>> Heritage. So, you know, uh we discussed about how uh language, you know, languages, things are lost in translation, stories that are not being told. Is there something you would think of immediately uh which you are worried about that if it is not told, it's going to disappear from Goan culture?

[00:21:54]And your next generations won't know that this happened. I mean, do you feel sometimes that sense of urgency that you should be writing or somebody should be writing about some issue? Can you think offhand of about that?

[00:22:08]>> I would say that it is uh rural Goa which has been written about, but it needs but rural Goa in trans in transition, even urban Goa in transition also needs to be written about. Because I don't know. I mean, things are changing so fast.

[00:22:23]>> Not being recorded fast enough.

[00:22:26]>> also, you know, it may not be as romantic because always, you know, writing about something earlier is sounds more romantic and probably sells more because that fits into a very nice beautiful uh bucolic picture.

[00:22:41]>> But uh but Goan transition needs to be written about because otherwise we'll only have the Goa of memory and the new Goa >> Which is >> Yeah, the transition is is is also very challenging.

[00:22:55]>> But what gets lost with a language gets lost is uh in my school there's an ayah who is a tribal and she has a lot of wisdom that comes out with little idioms and phrases. I'll give you one example. Walk away with that.

[00:23:11]If you eat a divine it is good for gastric problems. It's big but when you say it it is so sweet to the ear.

[00:23:21]And she had many such she has many such things which have a lot of wisdom behind them. Much of that will get lost. So the beauty of the language is one thing the knowledge is another thing and how it is >> Both are getting yes yes absolutely.

[00:23:38]You know >> [clears throat] >> we have again in the writers group a lot of young writers. Do they look at Goa differently?

[00:23:46]And are they writing differently also because of that?

[00:23:50]>> They well it's a different age.

[00:23:52]I I can't live their world so I really don't know. Probably they will not be able to the ones whom I know interact with they will write in only in English. I don't I have not come across anybody who's writing in Konkani or Marathi or Kannada.

[00:24:09]Because we've not sent our children to quite honestly my generation and the next generation in the world that I come from English is their mother tongue.

[00:24:19]So it ends with me.

[00:24:22]You think that?

[00:24:23]>> Absolutely I agree entirely because that is the case also >> Everywhere we're losing language knowledge.

[00:24:30]>> But that young people also need to consciously consciously attempt to find an authentic voice and not be always influenced by Americanisms and American ways of writing. Not that that's bad I mean I will enjoy that but in order to see some people imagine that in order to make your writing your story or fiction authentic you have to just use a few Konkani words here and there and put a little asterisks and down right, you know, >> Starts with a Konkani word.

[00:25:05]>> But that is not authentic. You see, you can write an authentic story without a single Konkani word. What you have to get in in an authentic way is an authentic way of expression. And and and authentic feelings. Your characters have to be multi-dimensional.

[00:25:22]And people who write well are able to do that. But if you want to be authentic to Goa, then you have to catch that in the Goan context.

[00:25:30]>> Right. To do that, you have to be exposed to when you say culture, it's not just theater and it's also food, the clothes which are worn at different times of the year >> [snorts] >> or different times of the day.

[00:25:43]The the way a bath is taken, you know, sometimes oil bath, sometimes not, whatever it might be. I give you an example. Today, if you go to most Goan restaurants, there's tomato in everything. But our cuisine never had tomato, very little garlic. Milk was not not a thing at all till I think Amul came into our lives. Milk was not a thing. So, even our sweets are not milk-based.

[00:26:11]>> Yes.

[00:26:11]>> So, all this is somehow it comes into your language. Like a person would not be putting tomato in khadkhade. If you're describing something in a story, you have to be aware of that. You can't say, "Oh, she put this that." And I'm saying this because of some experience that I have had. Or somebody is distributing pedhas after wedding. No, it has to be kadyacho ladoo.

[00:26:36]So, these things matter. When you are writing a story, you would need to know what the culture is.

[00:26:42]>> My mother tells me but she lived in Anjuna when she was young that when tomatoes came into the Mapusa market, they were imported from Belgaum. And it was like a special day then, you know? So, therefore they were not used in everyday cooking because for some reason I don't know why tomatoes didn't grow on the You know, like an import.

[00:27:00]>> Yeah, we used to carry cauliflowers, carrots, and peas so that my grandmother could see. So, from Bombay it was carried.

[00:27:07]>> It was not there. Different vegetables, different vegetables that grew here. Not that people didn't have things, but they were different vegetables that grew.

[00:27:15]Now, of course you get everything everywhere throughout the year. So, you know.

[00:27:19]>> So, the language is also like that, right?

[00:27:20]>> Yes, absolutely.

[00:27:21]>> And then the writing gets reflected as well.

[00:27:25]>> So, if you're writing a story set in Goa today, yeah, you would be eating all these things. But, if you purport to write a story of Goa 50 years ago, then these things should not be there. Just like you wouldn't write a story set 30 years ago and people picking up a mobile phone and it would be as odd as that because mobile phones didn't exist, you know, 20 or 30 years ago.

[00:27:46]>> But, even now like a colleague of mine, she traveled to Jodhpur and then she went to Dubai, she went to Kashmir, and all three times she came back and she said, "I did not like the food because there was no sheet curry."

[00:27:58]And we're talking 2026.

[00:28:01]It reminds me of you know, I'd got a lady who was working for me in Delhi.

[00:28:06]She was totally Bengali, didn't know word of any other language. So, I was sort of training her, very nice older lady.

[00:28:14]And I asked her to get some apples from the other room. Uh And she went around dancing around and came back and they were right there on the So, I said, "This is And I said it in Hindi. I said, "Say."

[00:28:29]Thinking that's what she'll understand.

[00:28:31]And she said, "Oh, you are you were saying this?" In my And she was totally Bengali speaking rusty. She said, "In my language we call it apple."

[00:28:41]>> [laughter] >> So, when I got married yeah, and I moved to the north and I had to speak in Hindi. There were hilarious mistakes.

[00:28:50]I'll tell you those some other time.

[00:28:52]>> No, tell us one.

[00:28:53]>> So, I went there and I said ek pao de do.

[00:28:56]>> Yeah.

[00:28:56]>> And he said ek pao kya de do?

[00:28:59]So, I said ek pao de do. And I couldn't understand why is he saying ek pao kya?

[00:29:02]I just want that pao.

[00:29:04]>> So, you wanted the bread.

[00:29:05]>> Yeah. Or ek pair de do. That fellow was lost, you know, kis ke.

[00:29:10]So, yes.

[00:29:12]For pepper, I didn't know what to say.

[00:29:14]So, chota chota gol gol like that.

[00:29:18]That happened. From there, I moved to Tamil Nadu, where nobody knew Hindi or English. So, there again we had to learn a lot of languages. Yeah, the internet and the mobile phone has changed many things.

[00:29:30]>> Yes, it's amazing.

[00:29:33]So, last question. Is writing a way of preserving Goa? Is it doing what it should in Goa?

[00:29:42]>> Yes, writing is certainly a way of preserving a part of Goa. I'm here environment, ecology, there there are other ways, but writing influences people, influences thinking. Writing can preserve. Writing has always been a way of preserving the past and transmitting it to the future.

[00:30:01]Is it doing its job in Goa? It is doing it, but there is much more that needs to be done.

[00:30:07]And always always >> I think writing is important if people read.

[00:30:12]Otherwise, sometimes it's the oral that works better.

[00:30:17]Every script starts with a written word.

[00:30:20]>> Starts with writing. Yes, yes, something.

[00:30:22]>> Yes.

[00:30:23]>> Even if it's got to be translated into a movie or into a drama or into any kind of way you Somebody is writing something somewhere. You have a book in front of you.

[00:30:34]>> I am a pen and paper person still.

[00:30:37]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, generation, I think.

[00:30:40]>> Even if you use your mobile, someone has to type it in your mobile. So, yeah, writing you can't get away from.

[00:30:46]>> Well, thank you so much. This was very interesting for me, and I am sure it's going to be very interesting for the viewers. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.