This Central Bank Is Getting Ready To Buy Bitcoin | Conner Brown

[00:00:00]We get an email two weeks after we released it with photos from Taiwan's legislature is from a member of Congress delivering our paper to the premier of the legislative yuan, the head of the central bank. I've met many central bankers. Everyone is always extremely skeptical of Bitcoin. This was the first time I walked into a briefing. They had read our report cover to cover. The only reason Taiwan exists is because they airlifted all their gold outside of mainland China and were able to fund a government exile.

[00:00:32]What's up freaks? Thank you for watching and joining us. Make sure you like and subscribe. And I also want to make you aware of the TFTC roundt. This is where serious Bitcoiners and operators learn how to build leverage with Bitcoin, AI, and the company brain systems that will define the next decade. Get in the room.

[00:00:47]Get in the round table. Go to tftc.io/round table. DC. It's easy to get to from Philadelphia. I think I want to be here a lot more.

[00:00:54]>> We need you here, Marty.

[00:00:55]>> Do you? We need you here in the trenches. Yeah, we've got Pub Key now.

[00:00:59]Uh we've got the office set up. We need more Marty Bent. We need rips all the time in DC.

[00:01:04]>> I I I prefer them in person as you know.

[00:01:06]Yeah, >> we've only ever recorded in person. Yes.

[00:01:08]For the third time now, >> as is tradition.

[00:01:10]>> We didn't wait what was it seven, eight years between uh the second and third like we did with the first and second, >> right? We're going to keep these recurring basis. A lot's going to be happening in DC. DC is going to be, you know, the new up and cominging important city, I think.

[00:01:23]>> Yeah. Everyone likes talk about Austin and Miami, but this is where a lot of stuff is going to happen over the next 5 10 years with all the technology changes. Like DC is going to be the true city to be in, I think, in the coming years.

[00:01:39]>> That's why I told you this last time I was here. I've been to the city more times in the last six months than I was in the first 34 years of my life.

[00:01:46]>> Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying it's a great thing. Um, I would prefer it not be the place that the magic is happening. And then, uh, but just with the way things are headed, >> um, yeah, I do unfortunately think it's important that we're here.

[00:01:59]>> Yes. Uh, couple things on the agenda today. We're going to talk about AI, not only the policy implications around AI, but actually implementing it in our businesses, particularly at BPI.

[00:02:11]>> Uh, and what you guys have been up to. I think it's very fitting that we're meeting today cuz you guys launched the Q2 report of what BPI's been up to this year. So, I think starting there and going through all the policy efforts that you guys have been pushing forward and the wins and maybe losses or >> neutral victories you guys may have.

[00:02:32]>> Yeah. Gosh. Um, so much stuff going on, but I think at the corner of it, it's just, uh, this technology continues to improve. Um, whether it be both with Bitcoin and AI, and that is just speeding up the pace of change. Uh, we're seeing it in our organization, we're seeing it in what we're being tasked with um, different meetings and stuff. And so, um, it's really it's been a lot. So yesterday we released what we did over just the past three months and it's crazy. I was reading through it and I just couldn't believe how much we got accomplished in three months and um you know people say like AI is going to like replace all our jobs and stuff and like everyone I know is working harder than they ever have before because suddenly all of these sort of stray ideas that you like I don't have the people or time to do that you can actually just roll up your sleeves and do it with like an afternoon. Um and so yeah it has been sort of overwhelming. We've been doing a lot of new international work. We've been doing lots of new research that we were able to build out much deeper than we had been previously. So, yeah, it's been a whirlwind really since I joined.

[00:03:43]I mean, we last spoke when I first joined BPI and um just the change in the organization since then has been crazy crazy. Um and we're really excited for what it means for the next 5 years of what we'll be able to build build here in DC.

[00:03:59]>> Yeah. Well, let's start internationally.

[00:04:01]>> Yeah.

[00:04:01]>> Taiwan. How did that happen?

[00:04:04]>> So, Taiwan, I mean, this is a perfect example. We had an idea for a research paper. Uh, one of our fellow, we said, "Hey, uh, Jake, you have a background in DoD. Would you be interested in doing a paper on Taiwan's cash reserve, why diversifying into Bitcoin would make sense for them?" And he was excited for it. Um, Taiwan has a really interesting history. I didn't know this, but Taiwan exists entirely because they use their gold as a strategic resource to like flee the country basically. So, the only reason Taiwan exists is because they airlifted all their gold outside of mainland China and were able to fund a government exile. And so, we thought, "Oh, that'd be interesting." Um, we have the research expertise. We'll just do a paper sort of thought experiment. And then we get an email like two weeks after we released it with photos from Taiwan's legislature and they're like, "Your paper was amazing." Um, it is from a member of Congress, legislator C. He emails us photos of him delivering our paper to the uh premier of the legislative yuan, the head of the central bank. And um we were just like, "Oh my gosh, this is crazy."

[00:05:18]And then uh a few weeks after that, we got invited to go and brief them for a week. So um another thing that's been keeping us busy is lots of international travel. So >> what can you share about what was shared in the briefing or the information that was exchanged?

[00:05:34]>> I can say that Taiwan, every person we talked to is really really cognizant of the the geopolitical situation they're in. Um it feels like the the weight of the world is on them and they're bringing it up all the time of they know that uh they've always been in this tenuous position between the United States and China and that every day they feel like the stakes are higher because the strategic importance of Taiwan goes up every day as the compute buildout accelerates and there's more and more value on the island and um it it just leaves them in this like strange psychological position where everyone is thinking about it constantly like what does this mean for us? What does it mean for the people of Taiwan? For a long time, we had this principle of the Silicon Shield uh that America would defend Taiwan's national interest. It would defend them in a military escalation because of how valuable their chips are. In many ways, that's an even stronger case today than it was 20 years ago. But at the same time, it can also be seen as a reason that China is even more likely to intervene because they're now not just um have this historical rift, but they have a strategic element here of uh you know, China is trying to figure out what it means for like could they actually pull off a blockade, all that. And everyone in Taiwan knows that people on both sides are trying to figure out what their plan is. And um that just came through across every conversation we had. We met with people from both the different parties there.

[00:07:16]Um the DPP and the KMT are the two ruling political parties there. Um the DPP currently has the majority and um the KMT as an opposition party is leaning more towards um some form of reconciliation or um you know uh some sort of lessening of uh sort of hostilities with China. And it's it's this really really interesting political dynamic. If you look at all the other policy issues um for the parties, they pretty much agree on I don't know 90% of policy issues.

[00:07:53]>> That's what I was going to ask like how is the partisan polarity over there?

[00:07:57]>> It's uh ex it's very very strong >> but it's just on this issue of >> reconciliation.

[00:08:04]>> What side do we end up what side do we lean towards? Um and I I think that both of them are just coming to grips with it. It's like it's like what everything else we do like it's so hard to predict the future right now because of AI the strategic questions wrapped up in that and Taiwan feels it probably stronger than anywhere else on earth. I mean it's just in the daily conversation all the time. Um, so what I can share is we met at length with their head regulator and for their their financial services commission and um and the central bank of Taiwan and it was my first time meeting um people from a foreign central bank. Super interesting. I went over there not really knowing what to expect.

[00:08:53]So, you know, you you write a paper on Bitcoin. Uh I've met many central bankers you know over the years working in policy and I think everyone has always been extremely skeptical of Bitcoin you know arms length. Oh yeah nice to meet you pleasantries. This was the first time I walked into a briefing.

[00:09:14]They had read our report cover to cover.

[00:09:17]All the different members of the Taiwanese central bank um had taken extensive notes um and had really really good questions actually um about the reasoning, the practicalities. Um without going into too much detail, I was surprised at their hospitality, their level of understanding, the quality of their questions. Um it was just a fantastic experience. if we want to go back and um yeah, so hopefully more updates on that soon. But yeah, I think that this is something that is easy to forget about is what a signal that the American administration has sent to the world. Um, you know, no one is ever excited with the pace of change in DC or how, you know, fast or slow things go, but things like the executive order for the SB like that is still being digested actively and everyone around the world is trying to figure out what it means, you know, what to do with that. So, it was it was a really really cool experience and um it was my first time being there. So, it was just all around just fantastic. Yeah, SBR, they're fighting over who actually gets control over the reserve right now, right? It's between Commerce and Treasury.

[00:10:36]>> I mean, it was something that we kind of scratched our heads at a little bit when the EO first came out, which was they've jointly delegated authority between Treasury and Commerce to execute the SPR executive order. And um I think they're just still trying to figure out exactly how do they do this? How do they build up the capacity? I mean, it's been sort of embarrassing for the administration a bit. Um, you know, they had that scandal where they gave the marshals funds to, you know, a contractor with shady origins. Sue's son then >> ran off with some of the money. I mean, it's just like uh >> comical.

[00:11:16]>> It's it really is just like a circus.

[00:11:19]Um, so in true government fashion, it's always slower than you would expect, but I do I mean what we've heard is um you know there are lots of things happening um that people are trying to get things stood up and there's just like an endless series of bureaucratic hurdles.

[00:11:40]Um but they say expect something soon.

[00:11:43]So >> two weeks TM we know that well here.

[00:11:46]>> Yeah, two weeks. Two weeks. Two weeks to flatten the curve, two weeks to execute the SPRO. I don't know.

[00:11:53]>> Bring it back internationally. UK.

[00:11:55]>> UK. Yeah. Another thing we went over there. Um, and I guess what we're seeing is what happened in DC and with the new administration has just want all of these other governments are wanting to get the inside scoop from the people that work through the process of what how is the US thinking about this and how can they be a fast follow. That was the we went over to the UK and heard that term like hundred times. the UK wants to be a fast follow and um it was honestly pretty surprising. So I went over there just sort of expecting that they would like throw me in jail if I was looking at Twitter and instead like surprisingly positive. um you know they had just announced a cap on stable coin balances and then the week we went over there they actually rescended that and they're still like many other governments trying to wrap their head around what all of this means.

[00:12:57]>> Um but again surprised by the level of openness we met with people and we did a briefing in the House of Lords. It's a ton of fun. First time being in there.

[00:13:07]Um, it was in the Parliament building, so it like felt like >> a lot of pageantry involved. And >> lots of pageantry. They have statues in there from like 1600s. I tried to take a photo. I got accosted by some security guard. Looked like the Hogwarts like cafeteria.

[00:13:25]But, uh, yeah, surprisingly optimistic there, too. um you know afterwards the head of their uh it's like a head of innovation at their FCA put out a thing about the importance of Bitcoin policy.

[00:13:38]I mean we have to remember like these people they don't even understand the difference between Bitcoin and Shitcoin.

[00:13:45]They don't understand how Bitcoin is different from the parade of horribles they hear about and they are very interested in the story we have to tell. Um, so I I think like the lessons learned is you have to tell the story in a way that relates to their history. You know, when we go over there, we talk about, hey, you know, Newton set you guys up on the gold standard and that paved the way for 200 years of British Empire. So those are the types of stakes that are at play here. And um I think explaining in those like broader historical terms, same with Taiwan, you know, we talked a lot about their historical use of gold is funding government in exile. Relating to those longer term historical narratives for a country. Um same here in America is the key to getting people to understand the policy implications.

[00:14:38]>> Yeah, it's incredible work.

[00:14:42]>> It's exhausting. Um imagine Thank you. I mean, we got a lot more to do. Yes, >> there's no shortage of work.

[00:14:47]>> Well, I mean, you guys are the hot chick on the block, not because of Bitcoin, because of AI. I mean, bring this back bringing this back to Taiwan.

[00:14:55]>> Yeah.

[00:14:55]>> Um, you guys, I think Sam spearheaded the the report basically unearthing that China >> has been influencing conversations around AI data centers here in the United States.

[00:15:07]>> Yeah. Um, that started as like we were saying with AI, you can just do so much more. So it started as sort of like I don't know uh a side bit you know people had mentioned to us um you know Bitcoin miners mentioned to us they've been seeing just unprecedented local opposition and that they've been doing this for years and they're used to some local concerns obviously with any major infrastructure project people are going to have questions. Um, but a few months ago they said, you know, we've we're seeing the same local people that have concerns, typical stuff, but we're also seeing this new thing, which is people from out of town that um while the local people will ask a reasonable question like, okay, what is the where is this going to be located? Is this going to create noise? Is this going to impact me in XYZ way? There would be these people from out of town that would really aggressively say, "This is going to give everyone an aneurysm, right? Or this is going to destroy all the bees in the area. I heard that no bees could ever exist within 50 mi of a data center. Is that true?" Just like ludicrous things.

[00:16:17]And um they were like, "We've never seen this before. Can you guys see if there's, you know, anything going on?"

[00:16:24]We said, "Yeah, we'll take a look at it." And um we just got Sam Lyman that joined. So he came over from Treasury and Sam has experience dealing with this stuff. So he used to work at Riot, right?

[00:16:36]>> Used to work at Riot. He's, you know, done the rounds in like local communities in Texas working on this stuff. and he just kind of started pulling the thread. And you start going through these different layers of nonprofits and all the different activist groups that are on the ground and mobilizing. And um it it just kind of shocked all of us.

[00:17:00]And then it just all sort of worked out in the virality of it because everyone's talking about data centers now. And we were really the first to sort of put all the pieces together and say, well, actually, if you look at all these different projects, we're seeing a common element, which is the party for socialism and liberation um are functioning as at least important organizers in a lot of these debates and they have sort of a you know, dubious history. So, yeah, it's been it's been a whirlwind past couple of months since that story broke.

[00:17:36]>> Who's the individual behind all of it?

[00:17:38]who's very vocally anti >> we don't know who is like it a lot of there's a lot of questions about the organization what we know is that um someone named Neville Singum Roy Neville Roy Singum um is a you know very wealthy philanthropist that lives at least part of the time uh in Shanghai has said a lot of positive things that sort of align um his views with those of of China and he is at least funding some nonprofits that are doing anti-data center stuff. Um it it is there's a lot of dark money involved. It's a lot of it is sort of unclear and we're trying to piece it all together and and understand exactly what's happening. Um but yeah, I'd encourage anyone that's interested in this reads. Um, we have two different foreign influence reports in the case for American AI that sort of go over exactly what this nonprofit structure looks like, sort of all the different elements of foreign influence we've identified. Um, and we've sort of detailed case studies of what we're seeing on the ground. And um the one thing I do want to say is this is not to say in any way, shape, or form that Americans themselves don't have legitimate concerns about this massive multi multi-billion dollar trillion dollar buildout of compute.

[00:19:07]>> Multi- trillion at this point.

[00:19:08]>> Yeah. I mean, it's like huge in its implications. These projects are larger than anything we've ever built before and are going to continue to just scale up over time. People have many legitimate questions about that. How is that going to change their way of life?

[00:19:24]I don't think that the narratives that you know anthropic or some of these uh effective altruist groups are putting out are compelling to the everyday American and that is manifesting in a lot of concerns about this buildout. So all of that I think there are legitimate concerns and fears about AI and these data centers their impact but a proper accounting of this means you need to also think okay is there foreign influence what does that look like because there are strategic questions at play um and we know that our adversaries are savvy they understand how social media works they understand that in modern global great power competition, you're usually not fighting with boots on the ground.

[00:20:13]>> Fifth generation warfare. Yeah.

[00:20:15]>> The podcast I recorded this morning, we talked all about it.

[00:20:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just it is the the modern battlefield is on Twitter and Instagram and um they are I I think that we are just seeing like the latest in >> Well, that's why in the stuff >> we should all be thankful the BPI exists. We try to do our part at TFTC, but you have to engage in fifth generation warfare. And that means going pulling on the threads, writing the reports, >> getting it out there. And I mean, was that the most viral thing you guys have ever done? Finally, not related to Bitcoin.

[00:20:44]>> Um, yeah, it was probably the most viral. I mean, we're on the front page of New York Times last week. So, >> um, but you know, just the beginning.

[00:20:51]Just the beginning. I think there might have been >> I don't know. I mean, the numbers on it have just been insane. You know, it's it's one of those things you hit at the right time. It gets circulated by the right people. Mark Andre tells all his followers to read it and then the internet explodes, you know.

[00:21:04]>> Yeah. I mean, and that's why we're that's why I'm in town today is for the event tonight which is talking about energy policy, data centers, uh the intersection and how we should think about these things, approach them. And I had a conversation last night. If you listen to the previous episode, you're getting this again, but I think it's important to reiterate to Connor. I I was um sitting down with somebody who was uh involved in one of the largest utility companies in the United States and we were just talking shop about like all right how do you how do you educate the masses about this because that's I think one of the biggest uphill battles we have now and Bitcoiners I think know this um more deeply than the AI data center people now because we've been doing this for 10 years but there is a lack of understanding of energy the grid how all these things work how data centers Bitcoin mining operations, how they interact and how they affect um your ability to to access cheap electricity. And that's why I'm happy that American Bitcoin, Pub Key, and PubK are starting this this series, which would go for the next 10 months, but having conversations around these things. And um >> I think to your point about social media, it's like packaging it and getting it out there in a way, which I think your report did very well. Yeah, I mean it's it's so important to tell the story and I do think it is critical to Bitcoin as well is people if if we are going down a path where people are hostile to just energy production generally um that is not good for anyone. Um but but really it it's not surprising what we're seeing either because what we're seeing is uh a big tech executive gets up and says well AI is probably going to be as dangerous as pandemics and nuclear weapons combined. And it in the process is also going to take your job and the jobs of everyone you know. And um yeah, we're going to keep building it.

[00:23:04]like, okay, how is this going to be compelling? Like, this is not compelling for anyone. And I think it's just such a a break from the American tradition of leaning into innovation and entrepreneurship and the optimism of building great things. Um, that is what has made people inspired and want to come to America and want to build here.

[00:23:24]And uh what causes people to get up every day and build great companies is human achievement and greatness and energy is at the bottom of all of that.

[00:23:35]And uh you know I'm really excited.

[00:23:37]There's a lot of really really great startups now that are getting into I mean I'm I'm really glad to see there are startups that are doing real hard tech um energy production breakthroughs and stuff like Veiler Atomics or whatever. Um, you know, I saw that on Twitter. It's been all over my feed. Um, but if we're not telling a compelling story about how technology benefits us with either Bitcoin or open source AI or um, you know, biotechnology, if we're not telling that compelling story, then it's going to manifest in hostility in a million different ways. all the way from the ex hyper local level of not letting any of this stuff get built all the way to federal licensing regimes, KYC for compute, surveillance of all your chat logs. Um, it gets like very very dystopian very quickly when you start convincing everyone that this is this crazy danger that we have no precedent for how to handle. It's just not true.

[00:24:40]It's not how our society was built. Um, we're a society that trusts people with dangerous things. We a lot of people have guns. I mean, in in theory, America itself was founded on the idea that the people themselves can be trusted with dangerous tools, with self-government. I mean, this is like the core of what we believe is that the people can be trusted with things. Um, >> and if they break that trust, they will be prosecuted accordingly.

[00:25:08]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, it's it's it's we've dealt with dangerous things in the past.

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[00:27:12]Check it out. I think I'm back to the AI narrative and it's one thing we've been working on at TFTC2 cuz we've been leaning in and maybe we can spitball some ideas, compare notes to how we've been implementing this stuff. But I think I've been trying to do this more and it's not um an attempt to brag, but I think people the the broader public has an outside looking in view of AI and most of them haven't like really dove deeper than downloading chatbt and interacting with the chatbot.

[00:27:43]>> And I was actually um relieved to see Secretary Basant uh do an interview this morning. I mean, we were clipping it at TFTC, but talking about this exact problem where the interview was asking him, Dario Mod's telling us it's going to take all of our jobs. And you have this secretary of Treasury has to be like, well, like he's wrong about his business. Like, if you actually look into the data, um, I believe that AI proliferating, people learning how to use it is actually going to lead to a um, 10 like thousands of flowers of individual small businesses springing up. you can do the job of 10 men, 100 men with one now. And if you're implementing this tech at your company, which we both are, it is very obvious that that is true. Like you said, I've never worked harder in my life because I can do more. But just >> diving into and really bringing like a real world example of how AI is not taking any of the jobs at BPI, it's extending your ability to do more jobs.

[00:28:44]>> Yeah.

[00:28:44]>> Um, how are you guys implementing it?

[00:28:46]>> Yeah. So when Claude Code came out and then Claude Co-work, it just completely blew our minds. Um, we had been using these tools a lot. I was already, I guess, like a power user of this in many ways, but the transition to Agentic models that can actually do full workflows is just crazy. And so we just sat down early in January and had an all staff call where we said, "Here's what we're doing. We're going to really lean into this. We're going to become the best people in DC to know how to use these tools." Um, and each of us spent, I don't know, I don't know how many hours, right? Each of us just started playing with the tools, right? We said, "Everyone think about these tools.

[00:29:35]Here's a brief overview." We did a presentation for like two hours with the team and said here's generally what they can do. We want everyone in the team to spend a lot of time using these. Think about your existing workflows.

[00:29:47]Everyone has some sort of recurring tasks they do. Um think about how you can build these into recurring workflows and then we want you to present to the team how you're going to use this. And uh the great thing about it is you can then encode those workflows into you know skills. Um and so that was a major unlock for the org because suddenly we just had our team's skill set just started populating you know and every we had a new thing in Slack of announcer skills here and you know people can know how to use them and so it became this force multiplier where if you needed a specific skill to be called um obviously you would if you needed something for research you talk to the head of research arch, but if you're doing something that needs some research, you can call the research skill and sort of like slot that in. And um it was just like it it was an incredible process to see it happen because now we're 6 months past that. And I would say our work product is better quality than ever before. We're getting a lot more traction on social media. Uh it's just very clear to me that there are going to be two types of organizations and we're going to see the K-shaped divergence of the firm. Uh there are going to be firms that start to punch punch well above their weight because they have leaned into gaining the expertise in these tools. And the the best thing about the tools is if your team really understands not only how to use them, but how to improve them over time. Give really good feedback to them. Make sure that the agents themselves are taking notes on your feedback. You can get it so that every error they present to you, you never see it again. Um, and so now we're at a point where not only are we doing the things that we were doing six months ago better, but we're doing things that we could have never done before. You know, like our AI research on Bitcoin's preferring AI, uh, sorry, AI agents preferring Bitcoin. Um, that was hugely viral. We were able to build out an entire website, much more interactive, much more multimedia stuff. we were able to do a the scale of the research that wouldn't have been possible before. So I think that there are obviously growing pains. Um we are dealing with reducing slop all the time. It has become this constant sort of thorn in our side of like how do we make sure there's no slop in the organization because um you know there there are some some like you know stumbling blocks to it or things you have to learn how to manage but >> we deal with this too.

[00:32:41]>> Yeah. You can imagine.

[00:32:42]>> Yeah. But like the long view is like it's just so obvious that you're just going to have the adopters and the people that don't take the time. Yeah.

[00:32:52]>> Does BPI have a company brain?

[00:32:54]>> A company brain? Uh, what do you consider a company brain?

[00:32:59]>> It's a persistent memory system attached to a knowledge graph. So, we have a company brain at TFTC. It's three layered. So, we we uh we've leaned into harnesses. We we used Open Claw >> for 6 months. And then a month ago, >> after hearing about Hermes so much, like watching it from afar, I was like I was like, "All right, let me try Hermes." So I we have our main agent that we use for for a lot of tasks, a TFTC. He's in a VPS that I control.

[00:33:27]>> He we're anthropomorphic. We're anthropomorphizing these uh these machines. The clanker >> is in the VPS and that's where everything sits. So we had the Open Claw and I I basically just went to the the OpenClaw agent that was running on Claude >> Yeah.

[00:33:44]>> 46 and I said, "Hey, I want to try out Hermes. Can you spin up a Hermes harness for me in your server?" and um just let me know when that's set up and then tell me how to create a telegram chat with that >> with that agent and uh I'm going to go from there. So like set it up.

[00:34:01]>> Yeah.

[00:34:02]>> And then connected it. I wanted to AB test 46 Opus 46 versus GPT 55 at the time.

[00:34:10]>> Yeah. Um, and so I had the Hermes harness set up, connected it to 55 as the brain, and played with it for a day.

[00:34:18]And almost immediately I was like, "Oh, this is better than what we've done. So I'm just going to like start using this as my daily driver, but because we had the company brain." So in that same server, we have like a three-layered memory system. It's like flat notes.

[00:34:29]It's like so MD, the agent MD, the skill.md files, daily notes, >> uh, wiki llm. So there's like flat markdown files. Then we have a QMD semantic search vector database which like so if I give a prompt and it has keywords in it'll >> it'll query that database that lives on the server without wasting any tokens and it'll find context of us dealing with that term in the past. And then >> we have cogni cog ne which is like an obsidian vault but it's agent first and so >> um that's the third layer which is more expressive. So you have basically terms and um vaults of particular subjects and QMD will like query like every time we talked about it then it'll go to Cogni like okay we've talked about this in the past like how is it interreational to every other thing that that may relate to this topic and so like it gets like a full context of how we've dealt with these certain terms and it has temporal context to it so it knows like when we've talked about them >> that is amazing >> and then >> it'll go to the LLM like okay Yeah, >> based off all this context, how we frame things. So, it has all of our transcripts, all of our >> newsletter. So, it now knows how we frame things and that is >> that has been the the most ROI that we've gotten in terms of investing the time to build out a particular part of the stack is that brain.

[00:35:49]>> It's really interesting. So, that sounds like you're really trying to get as close as possible to an employee who has been with the org since its inception.

[00:35:56]>> Yes. has seen everything because that's what we're doing every day when we're working there is like you're building institutional knowledge. Um that's very cool. We're a little bit more simplistic. Um we use just the standard like clawed enterprise subscription but we do have a something similar to um a a brain in a sense that we have like a shared set of context files. Mhm.

[00:36:23]>> So we've sort of curated a a a project file that then has you know subfolders for every different arm in the organization and we have at the top a cloud MD file that gives a basic overview of what we are and sort of all of context on all the different files within it and then explain how it can search through those files and understand what we're doing and then each one of the arms of the organization will have its own subfolder for comms or design or research or whatever. And then each of those we have the you know subcloud and MD files for each of those subfolders sort of example workflows example prior precedent and then cross references of all right here is our research workflow. We expect you to do this 20step process for doing a research report and then once you get the user's approval or feedback we sort of have encoded the entire like life cycle of the product. So we'll start with all right if you kick off the research skill it'll start with ideation and then we have specific gates where the user provides feedback and then it'll continue working up the product and then give you another user feedback gate and it'll continue working up the product and then once it finalizes the research portion it'll then hand off to the comms portion or oh it'll hand off to the design and then comms and so we have it just as a sort intricate folder and subfolder system with cloudmd files throughout >> and um >> it seems like an assembly line.

[00:38:00]>> Yeah. Well, you think of it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:01]>> Yeah.

[00:38:02]>> Um >> well, that's the thing. There's like a thousand ways to skin the cat. Like for for your purposes, like it that probably makes a lot of sense for like our purposes. This makes that's that's what's so fascinating is that the um >> the landscape is so wide right now.

[00:38:14]Everybody's like still mapping the territory too. And so I just love hearing >> and honestly like we could use both of these. Like we could probably use a a database like that.

[00:38:22]>> Yeah. um for just context about BPI and what are our positions and what are the papers we published. Um that would probably be a helpful thing to know how to plug in. What I have noticed though is like you do have to be really careful because um you can almost like accidentally context poison yourself where you'll notice it'll keep making an error and then at some point you're like, "Oh, it's saying that because like at some point in my feedback to it, it like left a note for itself that it reads every single time it gives an output and it should not be reading that note." And like I've consistently found like whenever I'm having some sort of capability problem, it's either problems with my prompting itself or problems with the context that I'm giving it.

[00:39:09]Like I'm giving it bad examples of prior work product or something that aren't up to the standard we need and it's drawing on them for design inspiration or something. And so, you know, always like thinking about what is the context for every single prompt and yeah uh trying to like it's almost like pruning or something like a bonsai tree. You know, you want it to like constantly be improved and you know every time you use it you're in some ways you could like accidentally poison the context for future conversations or improve the context for future conversations. Um and teaching the employees that too of using these systems your initial implication your initial uh I don't know impulse would be if it makes a small error okay I can just like fix that myself it'll be a small tweak but if you understand the right way to give it feedback you can provide feedback in a way that what might just be an easy fix for you now is fixed forever if You just explain, hey, this needs to be fixed and keep a note for yourself to never make this problem again.

[00:40:21]>> Make no mistakes.

[00:40:22]>> Make no mistakes >> forever going forward. Um, but it's it is really great to see. It's It's also just really fun. I find it to be like a much more fun way of working.

[00:40:32]>> I do too. It's uh >> I Are you voice to text >> or are you typing still?

[00:40:39]>> I am voice of course. Yeah. Whisper flow.

[00:40:41]>> I use Super Whisper.

[00:40:42]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:40:43]>> Local model local. I know. I We need to be better about this, >> right?

[00:40:47]>> Um >> but uh what And I was just having this conversation with Thomas because I co-write >> the newsletter now with >> my agent. Yeah.

[00:40:57]>> And basically what I'll do actually >> does he have a name?

[00:41:00]>> Martin. He's a more sophisticated Marty.

[00:41:03]>> That's amazing. Okay. So Martin is trying to trying to make somebody recognizing that I I don't have the capacity to to store files in in my brain like right >> Martin does on a server. So he's more sophisticated he's going to be >> be better. But I was just talking about this Thomas cuz Thomas like I was writing the newsletter here at PubKy earlier and by writing the newsletter it's like hey basically my flow is I'll I was showing you yesterday I sent you a screenshot of the BPI Q2 report which we covered in the newsletter today and basically I yesterday when that came out I sent a note to our Bitcoin brief uh topic in our our Telegram chat and said hey I want to talk about this tomorrow when we go to write the newsletter like this is one of the things we're going to cover. Um, so I'll do that and I'll do like anywhere from five to 10 links and then morning morning of it's like, okay, pull up all the links, all the emails I forwarded to you about stuff I want to cover and let's I want you to based off of the engagement that we've gotten in the newsletter in the past. You have access to that data um on the back end of our CMS like structure the newsletter in a way that we'll get the most engagement. Um but like so we're filtering the I'm definitely covering these topics um machine you know uh based off the topics we want to talk about which is going to resonate the most with the audience and what they may deem most important. So like we have a lead story and then signal stories. Um so then it comes back to me it's like okay I think this should be the lead today and these should be the signal stories and here's how I'm thinking about framing it. And then I'll be like, "Okay, I understand why you're framing it this way, but like let's tweak this, that, and like I talk for like 10 minutes like, "Okay, here's what I want to cover frame." And then it's like, "Okay, I think we're at a good spot. I like the lead like signal stories like let's go right." And so that puts together a draft gets in the back end of our ghost CMS and I read it twice and then give final edits like, "Okay, you messed up here." Uh, and then we hit send and everybody's like, "Oh, you're not writing anymore. You're going to like lose that skill." And I thought that for the longest time. Like I actually shied away from using >> Claude for writing for for a while. But now I feel more comfortable for two reasons. One of which is the company brain is there. So it has that institutional knowledge of how we frame things, how our >> even how our opinions have evolved over time and how like how we the the voice and the the positions that we have on certain topics and it's able to inject that based off of stuff that we've talked about on the show and written when I was still manually writing um in years past. Um, the second thing is I had a conversation with somebody, you know, we're not going to dox him on the show. Uh, and he completely changed my mind because people were worried like, "We're going to use the art of writing."

[00:43:37]And I do still I do write. I do type. I tell people like I don't type in. I do sometimes.

[00:43:42]>> I do still write handwritten notes. I I like that art. I should It's an art form that should never die.

[00:43:47]>> But he described it to me. He's like, "We're basically just returning to the the era of the scribe." Uh, and he he changed the way I prompt cuz he the way he describes it to He's like, "When you're talking to these things, since it's an LLM with like a matricy vector database in the back with like points of association, like you need to give it as much context as possible so it can eliminate points of association in that matricy to give you more narrow output."

[00:44:12]>> And so what you do is you you pretend like you're Napoleon Bonapart.

[00:44:16]>> You took it out of my mind. I was just about to say this, >> right? So, like after a day of battle, you get back to your war tent and you have like 10 scribes, one for >> munitions, replenishments, one for like war philosophy, like ah, one for strategy, like here's where we messed up today.

[00:44:31]>> And you just talk to you spin up a bunch of sessions and each session is an individual scribe that you give a bunch of context to. Yep.

[00:44:39]>> And it forces you to think from first principles and really articulate what you're trying to get out there.

[00:44:43]>> It's so funny. Bitcoiners, we all just like come to the same conclusions independently. Um, have you read Napoleon's biography?

[00:44:49]>> No.

[00:44:50]>> Oh my gosh. Okay. Andrew Roberts, Napoleon, a life.

[00:44:54]>> Mhm.

[00:44:54]>> Best book I have read >> in a long time. Um, just incredible. Um, I think about this all the time.

[00:45:03]Napoleon was like the most incredible human I've ever read about. He would do this. He would go back. He would triple dictate. He would be able to dictate faster than his scribes could write things down. And so he was one of the only people in recorded history that had this ability where he could do exactly what you said. He could dictate 10. It's similar to a grandmaster chess player who goes and plays 20 different games simultaneously and comes back and he can remember the context for the the moves he's planning. Napoleon would do the same thing with writing these really just incredibly detailed and important letters to all the different world leaders. Um, all of his different troops, his different, it's crazy the breadth of what he was able to cover.

[00:45:49]But yeah, he would go back to the tent and after a day of the most intense fighting in documented history, he would then go and dictate a letter on the importance of building a local bridge in a rural municipality in France. And then follow that up with a letter on the need for a girl's education academy because there really isn't one in this certain area of Paris. And then he'd go onto another one and dictate something about, you know, preparing his army for invasions in Russia. I mean, it was just incredible how he's able to do this. And I do think that that is what these agents allow us to do is multiply human agency. And that is the good timeline.

[00:46:28]The good timeline is that the best aspects of human greatness, achievement, and will and vitality are multiplied.

[00:46:38]And I feel that happening when I use this. Um, but I do think it is something to be really cognizant of how you're using the tools. Like if you're using it in this dictation sense where you are able when I'm using it um, you know, and dictating to it, I can say so much more than I could possibly type cuz I can just talk forever. All of us can yap.

[00:47:03]>> Um, typing can be exhausting and um, >> it's slow. I type slower than I think.

[00:47:09]>> Yeah, exactly. is you actually like I feel like I lose some fidelity of my thoughts to commands when I write. Um now there are certainly many things that you have to really carefully phrase and write correctly and uh you know that is in publications and things like that that I do I think you should spend more time thinking about exactly what you're saying, phrasing it, refining it like a sculpture or something. Um, but for just raw output and ability to impact the world, the dedication model is just incredible. It's awesome. Yeah.

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[00:50:13]Now find Sovereign Health and Sovereign Healthcare. What uh what's the rate of adoption of AI tools outside of BPI in the city? Is it big or is it >> um I expected it would be a lot higher than it is. Um >> well I I have I have this theory that like Bitcoiners are just like early adopters to all this stuff. Um >> this is what I was just thinking is like every time I talk to a Bitcoiner about this stuff, they have some crazy workflow because we just lean into new technology. And I mean I've talked about this with like Thor and Galaxy and Skyler on the design stuff. every Bitcoiner I know at all these different places in the industry or different types of jobs or skill sets like all of us have independently come up with crazy interesting ways to use this stuff. uh when I talk to people at traditional think tanks like they're not this isn't even on their radar you know there's just like an institutional inertia for a lot of these more legacy institutions I think this is true you know Zack Shapiro head of policy he's finding this at the law firm level you know he's um >> he's beating the drum I mean he's going on BPI policy hour I feel like has been like Zack like like lawyers you better start vive coding better start using this >> well he wrote an article that went viral and then like he from that had so many attorneys reach out to him that are, you know, at major law firms and they're just so frustrated. I mean, I I dealt with this. It was frustrating for me in 2022, 2023 when I was working at a firm here in DC of just how hard it was to use any of the tools in the way that they're meant to be used. And um that was when the tools weren't even that capable, >> you know, like we couldn't even access it on our laptop. Now they have some mediocre tools, but it's all sort of like baked in stuff um like Weslaw AI and stuff like that. And Zach has done a great job of just saying no, you need to just integrate it top to bottom and you will be able to provide professional services at you know onetenth the cost and twice the quality. And I think that has really surprised people at what he's been able to pull off. And then from that, I've met lots of other it seems like what's happening is there's lots of senior associates or young partners that are breaking off from law firms and I'm sure this is happening in other fields too where they're realizing, hey, as a solo shop >> Mhm.

[00:52:45]>> I can do what a team of 20 would do and do it at better quality >> and keep all the money.

[00:52:50]>> And keep all the money.

[00:52:52]>> Yeah. Um, so cool to see. I mean this dovtales into an important point that we we definitely should discuss which is like policy around AI like as we're describing it is incredibly powerful and I think it's incredibly important to make sure that we're able to utilize these tools in the way that we know we can moving forward. And so like policy around AI um whether it pertains to the models you can access uh and the energy debate around how those models are being trained and how the inference is being delivered uh is extremely important and it seems pretty chaotic right now.

[00:53:33]>> It's very chaotic. I constantly think about what we did with nuclear energy, right? We invented basically unlimited energy and then we banned it and built enough weapons to blow up the world many times over. I mean, we we basically did the absolute worst thing possible with that technology. And I'm really really concerned we're going to do the same thing.

[00:53:56]>> It took us what 50 years to get back to a semblance of sanity and nuclear policy.

[00:54:01]>> Yeah. And honestly, we're really far from it. Like the NRC has done an unbelievable amount of damage on the nuclear energy. uh on the nuclear industry. And what's so funny is if you go back and you actually read the announcement of the NRC, all the different major nuclear industry heads were like, "This is a great new day for America. I can't wait for America to build out nuclear under this new leadership of a nuclear regulatory commission." I mean, people were just like patting themselves on the back. The people in Congress were super happy with it. The industry loved it. And it killed all the progress. Um it just became filled with people like if you listen to um the guy who is the head of the NRC under Obama, he will openly get on stage and brag about how nuclear is the worst technology. We stopped it in every way we could. It's not going to save anyone.

[00:54:53]Um it it's very funny. So point being, I'm really concerned that we're going to go to the same place with AI. Um the government just the nature of the institution struggles so hard with understanding exponentials or understanding um just reasoning about existential risk I feel like is this way to just like oneshot the government. You know, you have someone uh like in during COVID lockdowns, right? You have uh someone like Trump who in theory is pro- freedom, pro- innovation, prot, you know, small businesses, etc. They said, "Okay, there's a risk here that this could be some sort of major catastrophe.

[00:55:43]We're just going to shut everything down indefinitely.

[00:55:46]>> Print a bunch of money.

[00:55:47]>> Print infinite money." like they just can't reason about when someone says, "Oh, this is existential." Like just logic goes out the window. We saw it with nuclear. We saw it with the pandemic. We saw it. We're potentially seeing it now with AI.

[00:56:02]I do think that the admin the current administration is somewhat inoculated to restricting AI, but it is >> we're still at the very early innings.

[00:56:16]>> How many people have died from AI?

[00:56:20]Like we haven't had a major catastrophe.

[00:56:22]I think that inevitably like any technology, you know, you invent ships, there's going to be shipwrecks. You invent AI, some people will use it as a tool for bad things or accidentally use it to cause some sort of harm. Um I guess my point is we are seeing pretty strong calls for heavy regulation of this technology before we've even seen any of those uh you know uh misuses or harms manifest >> or on the other side on the positive side explored the full potential of it.

[00:56:56]>> Yeah. Or explore the full potential of it. And so I'm just worried that um without someone explaining in clear terms the optimistic case for human flourishing with AI, how this is a complement to human agency, greatness, achievement, um and all of the sort of knock-on benefits it can bring to individuals, localities, states that you're going to just, you know, go down a pretty dark path of you'll get surveiled, closed, permissioned AI thiefs.

[00:57:34]Um, you know, there there are people in the administration that defend open source, but is that going to stand up over time if we have open source that's at the capability of Fable or five times better than Fable? I really hope so. It it has to in my mind for us to have a free society. Um, but there's strange winds blowing in DC and I feel like there's a lot more money coming in on the restrict side.

[00:58:02]>> What's whispering in these winds?

[00:58:04]>> Yeah. I mean, just one example, uh, Trump's sort of one one of Trump's like uh, ground game lieutenants. Um, her name is it's escaping me now. I think it's Lisa Kmer. She used to she ran like the Stop the Steel grassroots campaign.

[00:58:23]for the 2020 election and the dispute over that.

[00:58:28]She is now being funded by effective altruist.

[00:58:31]>> Oh gosh.

[00:58:32]>> To run a new campaign called Humans First, which is like a MAGA aligned um anti- AI anti-A.

[00:58:41]>> Yeah. Populist AI. So I will say that the doomers um the people that want to paint this pessimistic view of AI they are very very savvy about how to play in the conversation. the frontier model providers themselves. I mean, I think Openi's sort of backed away from it.

[00:59:02]Like, seems like Dario and Anthropic are leaning into it and one has to wonder >> view their their marketing or how they're positioning things with a lens of skepticism because it's an easy way for them to get a regulatory mode, which if you're following economic incentives is probably something they want at the end of the day. It's really difficult to like actually figure out motives >> and that is what's difficult about all of this. You know, I do think there are some people that genuinely think AI is dangerous.

[00:59:32]>> Paperclip problems >> and yeah, we're going to get paperclipipped um and that they are not doing this like Yakowski is not seeking regulatory capture. Vicowski genuinely from the bottom of his hearts wants to blow all this stuff up.

[00:59:45]>> Um, and for whatever reason has just been like oneshotted by these doomer scenarios. Um, and then I think there's like there's just this whole spectrum of different people that are all it is a really strange set of bedfellows of people that are pushing in the same direction. Um, you know, you start to think through it, you have foreign influence, right? strategic adversaries, of course, they want to undermine the use of the technology. You have, let's say, radical environmentalists, people that want to develop civilization.

[01:00:16]>> Yeah, Musian. Um, you have um economic populists that have legitimate concerns about job displacement and they're confused about where they're going to fit into all this. You have people that are just uh your classic run-of-the-mill socialist, you know, Marxist type people that generally believe that all this should be redistributed.

[01:00:40]Um, you have the national security hawks that think only the government should have access to technology and we need to restrict it to just a few bureaucrats.

[01:00:50]Um, then you have like the effective altruists. You have the incumbents uh that are playing for the frontier regulatory capture game. Like all of these people are angling in a similar direction sort of rowing in the same boat. I don't even think they're working together, but it is just this weird thing that we haven't really seen with any other. Typically, you have like pretty strong set of of voices on both sides. This is sort of a a weird place where people that in no other scenario would they be sort of rowing in the same direction are all for one reason or another lining up and I'm genu I'm deeply concerned that our ability to use open source models or use these things uh in a way that maintains our privacy is compromised because of that. you know, um, it was 2023 when Daario was testifying in the Senate that open-source AI is headed down a very dangerous path.

[01:01:53]>> Mhm.

[01:01:53]>> That was 3 years ago. Um, so I I just think at the end of the day it would be just terrible if we are the ones that are getting the short end of the stick again >> uh, as a result of all of this. Um, and that's why going back to the beginning of the conversation, DC is going to be very, very important for the next 10 years. I I mean, my ability to predict what's going to happen is just so low. I just it's all bets are off on on what's going to happen with the rate of progress, but on the policy front, there are dark sort of winds blowing in DC.

[01:02:31]>> So, I got a comment and then a followup.

[01:02:33]>> Yeah. comment is uh comparing uh open AI strategy to anthropic is actually pretty funny because Sam was just like you want 5% of the company >> we'll just give you we're not going to we're not going to fearmonger we'll just give you 5% give us we'll just cut you in give us the moat cut you >> and >> interesting strategy >> so that's the comment follow up give the optimistic view >> I feel like a lot of the a lot of the conversation is focused on the pessimistic view and defending against that pessimistic view and not enough is focused on what is the optimistic outcome. What is the optimistic path?

[01:03:08]What could potentially happen in the future that that many people will look back on and be like, "Wow, that was actually massively beneficial for me as an individual and society at large."

[01:03:18]>> Yeah, I think that the optimistic view is a proliferation of this technology and our ability to achieve even greater heights of human achievement. Um, and what that looks like is broad. It has so many different uh ways that I see this going, whether it be for healthcare or education. But I do think that America has this incredible tradition of saying we're going to experiment. We are going to embrace a new technology before everyone else. And we're going to do it in a way that preserves freedom, preserves privacy, preserves autonomy.

[01:03:58]And what that looks like for AI is again choosing to lead the world and rising tide lifts all boats. I think that if it's done correctly that the people that have been left out of the economy in in rural America that have just been hit one thing after another with losing jobs overseas, just being left out, having brain drain to metropolitan areas. I think those people stand to benefit an incredible amount um because of the the benefits of energy production that we're going to, you know, we're going to need to build this stuff out and there will be economic benefits for those people.

[01:04:37]But I think really the upside in my mind is it does allow for an unprecedented amount of human agency. And this is only if we have AI that is free in the sense of what advice it can give you and is it going to genuinely do be an extension of your will or is it going to restrict your ability to operate. So the the doomer case is we're going to surveil everything you you say everything you ask and if you have a tough question then we're going to tell you the party line. The optimistic scenario is we're going to give you an AI that is aligned with your interest that wants you to maximize your human capability and the the possibilities for our species I think are even like still underexplored. Um our education system is terrible. Absolutely terrible. I went through a public education and I feel like I'm probably 10% developed of what I could have come out of. Um like you look back to the education systems of like ancient Rome and Greece and the trivium and like how rigorous they are and how uh you know the the people that came out of those. I think that we can have access to like the true great heights of civilization >> like Socrates being your teacher like >> Yeah. Alexander the Great.

[01:06:05]>> Yeah. Having having like you know I mean uh I think about this all the time but I think that each human has so much underultivated uh capability for creation. And I really see this as there is a distinction between consumption and creation. And that the the bad path is that we are relegated to infinite consumers that we're going to be fed a algorithm that we have no access to and it will provide endlessly stimulating entertainment for us to consume and that is a dark path. The good path is we are all empowered to self-create in ways that is you know difficult to imagine but um each one of us has cap latent capabilities I think you know I took up just sort of as a side hobby I took up painting a couple years ago >> I got into art history like this I like this >> and then uh started drawing and then I said drawing come on like the real skill is painting so I started doing painting thing started learning how to do like oil portraits and stuff. Um, and the possibilities I mean this is just like what the internet can do is the internet can connect you with >> Bob Ross, >> the best teachers in the world, right?

[01:07:28]Like I was able to find a painting instructor used to serve at the um academy in Florence and I took online lessons from him. He is fantastic.

[01:07:39]Steven Bowman, he's awesome. I highly recommend. Um, and then >> I think I need a Connor Brown original in my office.

[01:07:46]>> Yeah, well, I'm I'm working. Maybe we can we can work on a side commission, but um this is just like a microcosm, right? This was only possible because of the internet, the ability to reduce the cost of incredible education. Now, what does it look like when you multiply that to direct feedback from um these agentic systems, right, that have the ability to provide customized feedback. One of the best things for improving my painting abilities has been I'll get an hourlong call um with a guy who is a fantastic painter and um he'll review my work from the past month, provide some feedback, he'll draw on it and um that is that hour of my month is probably responsible for 70% of my mental improvement. You know, learning a skill is is partially just like learning the motor skills, but it's mostly >> having an expert come correct you.

[01:08:46]>> Yeah. And the mental heruristics, right?

[01:08:48]>> This thing you didn't even know you were doing wrong and you have an expert like, "Oh, looking over your shoulder like that. Do this. Don't do it that way.

[01:08:55]Like, shift this way." And boom.

[01:08:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. Pulls up, you know, uh, Photoshop and paints over it and says like, "Oh, your your value structure here is wrong. like this area of the face is way too dark. And you're not understanding that because the eye perceives like values in a near distance at a different, you know, uh level than than reality. And you have to like step back, you know, he'll he'll give you like advice that is very simple, but it actually completely changes how you paint. You know, he's like, "Well, technically you're standing too close to the painting, so you have to walk away 8 feet, >> take a couple seconds, and then walk back. And then you sort of can your eye like >> adjust um all these sort of small things. Point being that's one hour a month and it's expensive and even then it's incredible to have that access. This is just one way in which you know you can imagine a great AI teacher is available 24/7 to provide customized feedback and provide those insights constantly. And so again you're unlocking these new heights of human achievement and creation. And I think what I struggle with and what everyone is struggling with is the algorithmic consumption complex that just gets you in the doom scroll forever.

[01:10:15]>> And the optimistic view is you have agents that are acting in your own interest. You have freedom on the technology. you can select it for yourself and you can choose um to to use the technology in a way that sort of makes you the best version of yourself. Um that's just one example, you know. Um I see this across every sector and also filling in just like more time to to self-cultivate like the great gentleman scholars of Yore, you know, they were able to do that because a lot of them had been gifted like massive estates and had people that uh freed up their time to pursue new creative endeavors and academic endeavors and catalog every single insect that had ever been found in their local area. like they were freed up with material wealth to do those really cool human endeavors to and uh I think that the the optimistic scenario is that we're going to see the same thing. We can see the same thing and then we can >> come back to your war tent and >> go back to your war tent >> or to your scribes like here's what I learned out there. Here's what I want to work on. Yeah, >> it's funny like I've taken up gardening.

[01:11:24]Um >> dude, good for you. I want to take up gardening. It's uh we haven't >> I don't have a I'm I'm in a pod pod dweller right now.

[01:11:31]>> You're a pod dweller? You got to get out of the pod, brother. I was a pod dweller for a long time.

[01:11:34]>> But it's good. You like it?

[01:11:36]>> I mean, I'm just getting like we we moved into this new house. It's a beautiful >> 112y old property. Um so it's nice stone old building pre uh pre federal reserve acts. We've got a nice English garden in the background and it's >> we're the fifth family to ever live in this house. And so like I feel a duty to the property to to treat it well. on beginning to understand the the nature of the landscaping.

[01:12:01]>> You're a steward.

[01:12:02]>> Yes, >> we can all be stewards.

[01:12:04]>> Yes. Yes. I'm a steward of the It is our house. We own it. But it is a property that >> Yeah.

[01:12:09]>> when our kids are up and they're out of the house, maybe they'll buy it. Maybe there was one >> one family that bequeafd it to their their children. So, uh they got two generations in that house. But who knows? But for the time being, I'm still I got to be this house is >> bigger than our family. It's a it's a property that we have to steward. Is it a lot of upkeep because of its historic nature? I mean, >> it's it's strong. Good bones.

[01:12:29]>> Okay. Good bones. Yeah. Are you gonna get a physical clanker to walk around and help you?

[01:12:34]>> I don't know. I imagine eventually. Yes.

[01:12:37]I don't think the physical clankers are uh dex dexterious dextrous enough or >> I don't know. I've seen some crazy hand demos like >> Yeah, but like getting up the steps and all that. I'm not sure if they're there yet. We'll see.

[01:12:49]>> Oh, they can get up steps.

[01:12:50]>> Okay.

[01:12:51]>> You think Optimus can't get up steps right now?

[01:12:53]>> I I'm not sure. Yeah, I do you want to buy the first iteration or you want to wait like two generations?

[01:12:57]>> This goes back to like I would never in a million years have a closed source clanker in my house walking around going up my stairs.

[01:13:07]>> Yeah.

[01:13:07]>> Never.

[01:13:08]>> Yeah. Like I won't get I won't get a room to vacuum for that reason.

[01:13:11]>> You know, if I get to like run my own, you know, if I get to choose what software goes on there, >> I might you get to build >> I would still be use the models to build the software to go on there.

[01:13:22]>> Yeah. I mean, I I would still have I would still have some like really weird concerns about it, just like the idea of having some robotic entity walking around my home. But yeah, I would certainly never do that if it was a closed source surveillance tool that is phoning home >> all the time to, you know, Silicon Valley.

[01:13:46]>> Um, >> and the government.

[01:13:48]>> And the government.

[01:13:49]>> Yeah.

[01:13:49]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah, it' be like a hardware wallet or something, right? I want to know the firmware. I want to like feel really good about what I'm using.

[01:14:01]>> Yeah.

[01:14:02]>> So, very important, very important stuff.

[01:14:05]>> And on a positive note, we had uh we had an Americanmade open weight model released this week.

[01:14:13]>> Inkling.

[01:14:13]>> Yeah. Inkling. Very interesting. Have you used it?

[01:14:16]>> Not yet. No.

[01:14:16]>> Yeah. It just came out yesterday.

[01:14:18]>> Yeah.

[01:14:19]>> Yeah. Um, >> I'm excited by that.

[01:14:24]>> I hope that it keeps going in that direction. You know, it seems like every company starts off and they say, "Oh, we're the open source company. We're open AI. Open source is at the core of what we do.

[01:14:35]>> We're a nonprofit.

[01:14:36]>> We um we're going to, you know, then Grock was open source. They they released something early on and there was there was talk about this.

[01:14:45]>> Facebook fumbled it, >> you know." Yeah. Same thing. Facebook.

[01:14:49]Oh yeah, open source. That's really what what's going to be the future. You have Llama and now Spark is closed source.

[01:14:56]Like I do hope that we have someone who is just willing to put the frontier open source and publish it. Um >> we'll see. I don't I don't really know what to expect from the company. It looks like it's like a little bit beyond behind the frontier. So, >> we we can't live in the world the world where China decides they're going to be the open source leader and all the American labs just sort of close up.

[01:15:21]>> It seems insane to me.

[01:15:22]>> Oh my god. Such a such a strategic blunder for the US if we end up uh restricting open source and then the entire world just downloads China's open source uh ways. You know, like think of the strategic benefit you can give a country if the entire world is building on your open source stack. It is way deeper than, oh, it's not going to talk about TMN Square. Okay, that's that's not that's just kind of like, you know, a parlor trick or something. What really is at stake is China creates a best-in-class open- source model. It's better than anyone else can put out.

[01:16:02]It's cheaper and it somehow is really really good at programming for Huawei Ascend chips and terrible at using Nvidia chips.

[01:16:13]>> Mhm.

[01:16:14]>> You know, it's just like it it makes these little tweaks that each one incrementally actually really helps China's strategic position. And of course they would do that. I mean, the soft power you get of leading the world's open source models and having those just be slightly better at doing things in your interest and slightly shittier at doing things that are um, you know, against your interest. Huge.

[01:16:38]Huge. Um, >> do you think anybody in the administration realizes this?

[01:16:42]>> No. I mean, I don't we're we are still so early in the conversation, but >> somebody clip it and send it to them.

[01:16:49]>> Yeah, if you someone could clip that, send it. Um, I would say send it to Sax.

[01:16:53]He's not there anymore.

[01:16:54]>> Mhm.

[01:16:55]>> Send it to Lutnik. Lutnick would be a good person to send.

[01:16:57]>> Primary Sax partner, Craft, you've been on the show. Get it to him. Get it in his hands. I'll text you.

[01:17:03]>> Um, >> bringing us back to Bitcoin, but combining the two. I mean, >> been a thesis within Bitcoin for a while. the abundant future that's going to be unleashed by by AI is going to make the need for a sound digital distributed currency like Bitcoin even stronger. Are you more or less convinced of that? Um >> Oh, absolutely. More convinced.

[01:17:26]>> But it goes back to what type of systems are we going to be allowed to have or do we have? Right. Because I do think that capable open source systems that are trained in a neutral way are going to prefer Bitcoin. Our research has shown that if you just query them as they get more capable they generally prefer this is across different models they prefer bitcoin and stable coins. So I think that in a world where people aren't putting their thumb on the scale, then the possibilities for Bitcoin, its use in agentic commerce are just >> I it's hard to even imagine because agents are going to have so many fewer barriers uh in using this as everyday payment compared to humans. You know, they're digitally native. Bitcoin's digitally native. just is going to click for them.

[01:18:20]You know, Nick Zabo wrote about like the mental transaction cost and stuff. They don't have any of that stuff. So, it's going to be huge for them.

[01:18:26]>> Um, and I think will be naturally adopted because how much Bitcoin content is in their training set? Like every RIP you've ever recorded is somewhere in uh you know the the training sets of the frontier models like uh GPT3. One of the tokens was GMAX from Gregory Maxwell. He was actually one of the GPT3 tokens.

[01:18:46]>> That's insane.

[01:18:46]>> Um, and there was only like a small number of tokens. I forget. They only had like 20,000 unique tokens or something. So, like Bitcoiners are prolific in our content output. Our arguments are right and are good and are consistent and appeal to machines. You know, it is a tech forward approach.

[01:19:06]So if we have open permissionless free AI then I think that the implications for Bitcoin and its adoption are massive. Um, but if we have a dystopian scenario where all we have are surveiled and controlled AI thiefts, then it would not surprise me at all if uh the players start putting their thumb on the scale. I almost I almost uh hesitated in releasing our AI research about how agents prefer Bitcoin because I know that many of the people in the frontier labs are, you know, socialistleaning or sort of anti- libertarian leaning. And >> one of them has his own shitcoin.

[01:19:59]>> I would I was Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I was worried that just by releasing that they might be like, "Oh, we need to like alter the training set because Claude likes Bitcoin. We can't have that going on." Um, but I I think that like ultimately open source software will provide the counterwe and will be sort of the mechanism that Bitcoin is uptaken by these agents. So, but if if we are sort of in this like FFT endgame, which is easier to happen than people want to admit, I think then they easily could say, um, great. So, as part of our frontier testing for releasing a new model to the public, it has to really like CBDC's.

[01:20:43]>> Mhm.

[01:20:44]>> Or >> or these preferred stable coins.

[01:20:46]>> Or these preferred stable coins. Um, you know, >> running on the X42 protocol.

[01:20:50]>> Yeah, >> that's what you prefer.

[01:20:52]>> Yeah, exactly. So, that's kind of where my mind is at is we're going to have to make sure we get that scenario.

[01:21:00]>> Well, I think we could keep going for hours, but I know you have to get somewhere. I'm going to be back down here a lot. We'll do this more frequently.

[01:21:07]>> Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We're going to have plenty to talk about. So, >> yes, we are. 10 years 10 years of very important things happening in the city.

[01:21:14]>> Yeah.

[01:21:14]>> All right. Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way. Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and add free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that. $5 a month gets you every episode a day early ad free. Helps the show, gives you incredible value. So, please consider subscribing via fountain as well. Thank you for your time and until next time.