HR for Line Managers

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:02]Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for joining us for tonight's edition of HR mentorship learning series. My name is Olu Yi Adoshu.

[00:00:12]Tonight we'll be looking at the topic HR for line managers and our facilitator is Damala La who we are extremely happy she's back again and would love to keep having her as frequently as our tight schedule shed can oblige her. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to read her profile very briefly. Damula is a senior people development leader with over 40 years experience across the public, private and notfor-profit sectors. She brings expertise in leadership development, organizational effectiveness, employee engagement and strategic HR and is a trusted advisor to senior leaders supporting them to translate strategy into impactful people outcomes. She began her career in HR at Standard Chartered Bank where she held a range of roles and coordinated the diversity and inclusion agenda for the West African cluster. She also served as secretary of the Nigerian diversity and inclusion forum. The forum was recognized by the standard charter banks group awards in 2016 and 2018. Prior to transition into HR, she works in the consumer banking division of the bank.

[00:01:29]Since relocating to the United Kingdom, she managed a team in the department for work and pension, served as the HR BP at Achet and is currently the pioneer HR manager at homeless offshare. She set up the HR function and operations for the organization. Damola currently serves as a trustee of Tony B Hall contributing to governance strategy and people oversight and she's a member of the cha institute of personal development teams valley committee which organizes and delivers learning events and insights for CIPD members. She initiated and delivered quarterly coffee and condense sessions for the committee to strengthen HR relations ships within the network. She holds a first class degree in political science and is a recipient of multiple awards including the Jax Avent scholarship for commitment to public service. She writes and earns our French in her spare time and enjoys discussing world affairs traveling hosting family and friends. Ladies and gentlemen, let's make welcome dam as she anchors the session HR for line managers. Thank you.

[00:02:46]>> Thank you Mr. Dio for having me back. Um it's indeed lovely to be back here and good evening everyone and thank you for spending the next one to one and a half hours with me um on a Wednesday evening.

[00:03:00]Um I do not take that for granted. And um for those of us who practice HR, happy HR day to all of us. Um for those of us that don't know, May 20 is dedicated to recognizing the hard and good work of HR professionals across the world. Um so if you didn't wish your HR HR day today, please do that tomorrow when you get to work. Now let's get to it.

[00:03:24]Um I'll try to leave about 15 minutes towards the end for questions. So I'll go through this quite go through the presentation quite quickly and if you can't hear me have any questions um feel free to drop in the chat and Mr. um ad let me know we can take that um as the session is um going on if you've got any questions for those of us who practice HR we may have experienced situations where um we can see how a certain work situation is going to end and we advise the manager or managers on what to do but they don't take that advice and then when it goes pear-shaped um HR is left holding the bag or you know they're called in to come and clean Or you might have heard that um you you might have heard managers say to you as HR that you know your HR you don't understand um that that's something I've quite quite or I used to see quite a bit not anymore on the other hand as managers you might feel that you know what does a child do especially on this international charity what does a child do anyway they don't do anything but push the work you know to me as the manager or as the leader to do all the all they can do is bring all of these lofty ideas that are not workable.

[00:04:40]Right? So there's that tension between managers or there's usually that tension between managers and HR, right? But the truth is that managers and HR need to work together and collaboratively because managers are what you know one can call the frontline human resources, right? They the face of the policies, the processes, the procedures, the strategy, everything a child develops or even not just a child, everything a leadership team develops. it is the manager that you know that delivers that they're the source of that right so um it's very important that as HR we recognize that and yes managers have a lot on their plate um they have to do a lot of jumping so at times to them having to do now I'm putting in quotes the fluffy or soft people stuff looks like it's not worth their time giving everything else that they have to do right but Um, today I'm going to tell you as a manager that if you get your people's stuff right and you do it very well, you know, you actually get more time to be able to focus on your business priorities and get on with delivering whatever goals and objectives that you have because it's in the people in your team, you know, that are responsible for delivering that. And if you're not managing them properly, right, there's no smooth ceiling. But if you can get that right, there's a lot of, you know, you you you find work easier to do. Um it's it's it's the people stuff that's not done right that usually takes up a lot of management time and causes the stress that feels like oh I I I'm not doing anything but you know the what at times managers will call the HR stuff.

[00:06:20]Um next slide. So for this um I'm going to talk about what we what at times I call the doing function versus the um advice function or decision maker versus you know I'm not an imposter I just have to advise you so as a manager what are you responsible for as HR what does HR do not exhaustive but just a summary in my view usually managers are responsible for day-to-day people management so you're coming to work you're not able to come to work you got a flat uh you usually not call your HR usually you know it's the manager that's usually gets called for that or even for the more serious stuff um where an employee probably has concerns they usually typically go to their manage manager first recruiting and bodying their team members providing technical oversight and expertise usually this is the area where managers focus on a lot or what they feel that this is my job this is what I should be doing and not you know all the other is allocating task and monitoring the quality of work, measuring performance, developing people, supporting teams well-being and fostering the right culture. This is some of the things that managers to do.

[00:07:35]Um though not the topic of discussion tonight, we also find that in some organizations managers have their own deliverables, right? But we won't go into that. What does HR do or what should HR be doing? HR is also responsible for recruiting and onboarding um employee relations and employee engagement, compensation and benefits and learning and development.

[00:07:57]HR is responsible helping leaders mitigate risk so that the decisions that they take actually the people decisions that they take do not cause um problems or issues for the company or for the business. HR is responsible for employee well-being, design policies and processes, managing performance and employee conduct cases, you know, ensuring that employee voice is heard, succession and workforce planning and then this added providing the tools and information that managers need to help the team strive.

[00:08:31]You know, from all of this, we would see that there's a there's a lot of overlap between what HR does and what managers do, right? And what we'll find in some cases is that managers lead on a responsibility and HR provides support and in some other cases HR leads on it and managers you know provide support or deliver. So for instance in terms of recruiting and onboarding of team members right the manager will pass on the job requ does some screening of the CVs right pass on to the manager who does the short listing. HR at times helps with interview questions, you know, job descriptions and all of that. Um, when the employer has been onboarded or has been decided about to be on boarded, they usually be the one to lead around getting their workstation, getting their laptops or this is what the induction should look like. But at the end of the day, it is the manager that is responsible for that team member and the employee. Whatever induction plan HR may have even put together, it's up to the manager to deliver that. So HR can put a wonderful induction or onboarding plan together, but if the manager doesn't do it well, the employee still has a poor um induction or onboarding experience.

[00:09:46]That's an example of you know HR leading on something and manager delivery. Let's take um a case of managing performance which is also where another overlap is managing performance and employee conduct. Usually um it's the manager that feedback on whether a team doing appraisals or review or performance review periods. It's the manager that feedback on because again they're the ones that see the employee on what the employees doing well or not doing well, right? Or what should organizations that still use ratings, what should the ratings be and all of that, right? HR is the one that um colleates, if I can use that word, all of that together and then says, "Oh, this is the appraisal for this team, this appraisal for that team." Um and then it goes back to the managers to deliver on whether or not X is getting promoted or you're getting um the salary increase or not or whatever the result of the performance is, right?

[00:10:42]employee conduct cases. In my experience both in Nigeria and um in the UK, usually HR would guide um on that or give a framework of this admissions you can take or not take. Um but at the end of the day, it's up to the manager to say oh uh we're dismissing this person or we're not dismissing this person for example if it's an extreme you know an extreme conduct case. So the manager decides that but then usually it's HR that will write the letter and issue that and I guess that's where at times you know we get that thing of HR has fired me people don't like HR because um even even though HR has not taken that decision right they're the ones delivering u the outcomes to the employee so yes background and now let's get to the meat of it as a manager how do I get um and I'll try to focus more on you managers or or yeah new if if you manage it for the first time um how do I get the people stuff right I'm sure a couple of us would have heard this saying of people don't leave uh people leave bad managers not bad companies again not always the case because people leave for whatever their life circumstances are maybe you know they're getting better remotion or something right but if if a manager has a very good rapport or people feel that they're being recognized in the team the you know usually um um improves retention right sorry I just went back so you have started this by saying managers are the key drivers one second that managers are the key drivers of employee experience and it is um important that managers are aware of that impact right managing people is just beyond what you know technically right it's about how you help people deliver on the job and you would also find this right a lot of people become um managers because they think that it's a they've done well it's individual contributions or performance and it just shows like you know managing a team is natural progression or the reward of doing your job very well again not the focus of this but not everyone is a can not everyone should manage people but in reality we we find that that's not the case so you're doing well right the the next thing is oh manage the team And you know um all of the successes you had as an individual contributor we now expect you to deliver the same as a manager and you find that some people struggle and well some people who are very relational and charismatic at times might not but um managing people a key takeaway for line managers on this call is that it's it's beyond what you know it's beyond your area of your area of focus that you know very well. So how can I manage people right? You have to start with yourself first of all. Start with yourself. Identify what your leadership style is. There lots of resources you can use to do that. Um you can ask people, right? Um people around you, people that know you well, you know, what they think your leadership style is. But there are a lot of resources on the internet that can help identify that. I've put which you won't be able to see now but I've put in a link to one of such tools which is like a personality insight test and I've chosen this one by um Daniel Gleman and it was the one that made the created a lot of awareness around emotional intelligence right so he's just his own leadership um quiz is just or insight test is just one of the many available to managers to take um I would encourage new managers to first of all do that and it's important Identify a leadership style because then you become aware of your strengths, right? The things you can do very well. You become aware of your weaknesses or what we can call your developmental areas, you know, things you can improve upon. It also helps you to create a plan. So because you know yourself or you've identified you know your strengths and weaknesses you're able to create a plan of how can I then knowing that this is who and what I am how can I then manage um my team that's the first thing so know yourself and this knowing yourself would also speak to the point I'll get to about setting boundaries right so get that right know yourself and then don't just take the test and it will be to develop an action plan because just taking a test and knowing your style does not mean um it's not the end of it.

[00:15:19]It's you know then develop an action plan from that um pro that is practicing developing an action plan from that.

[00:15:27]Second thing is getting your recruitment right. This is always in my experience an area of tension between HR and managers especially when you know it's a bad hire. A bad hire cost a lot. Apart from the the monetary cost of the company, there's the time you you put in terms of the interviewing and all of that. There's time you spend on the probation you've introduced person to your team, you know, and then you you have to do all of that process again.

[00:15:57]So, it's always very important to get recruitment right. if you have the opportunity to build your team or replace um team members because if you don't get it right um it does cause a lot of it does cause a lot of issues um and how can you get recruitment right one is be clear about what good looks like or so I've got x number of roles in my team what does good look like what what does a successful person in this role need to be able to do and demonstrate once you've been able to identify that cuz HR would usually lean in. So while HR might help you do like the job description for instance, HR usually lean in on you to give that guide like those job description and then in interviewing um if I can use that word is to is to be very logical and rational and not sentimental in your interviewing. So because it's it's at the interview phase that you make decision on who you're hiring, right? So whatever questions you're going to be asking about the interview, let it be let it let let it be able to lead you to whether this person or not is going to be a right. It's not a fail it's not a fail proof method but at least you you should more than 50% get it right if you ask the you know the right interview um interviewing questions or you you or you're trained. So, and this would when we get to the HR bit, we'll speak about that you're trained, you know, in interviewing skills. Um, the third thing would be to know your team and build rapp with them. So, you know yourself, you know your own style. It's very important again to know your team. You can know your team by observing. Of course, you would hear if for instance you you you grew as a pair and then you you you were made a manager over a team that existed before. You probably already know the personality types that comprise the team, right? And you probably have, you know, you probably have to do some work because you're now growing. You've now gone a step above, you know, former team members or former colleagues. You probably have to learn things or be supported on how to, you know, manage them. But if it's a case that you you you know you you're not very you you don't you've not met team before I would share Mr. Can you help me share that um I'll share something now that can you can use it as what we call starter for 10 that to help you develop um an understanding of what your what each team member is. Are you able to to share the hello?

[00:18:40]Okay, I'm not sure. One second. Let me just get let me get that up. What I want to share the two I want to share.

[00:18:50]Okay.

[00:19:05]So yeah, can everyone see this?

[00:19:12]Can everyone see my screen?

[00:19:15]Oh yeah, I've seen a thumbs up. That's fine. Thank you. Right. So this is something I use um in the organization I work with and it was a colleague that that that shared this. So she calls it she was one that created this um and then shared with with a number of us.

[00:19:31]She calls it washing instructions um and for her she gives this to any new member of a team um to complete again because this this kind of work for her right um to complete so that she at least she knows what the preferences are and then she can work with that right so that's completed but it's basically something like this you know who who you are of course you know who they are how they like to be um how they like to be contacted or communicated with what conditions they like to work in what support they need from you as a manager. Um if again that part of things you're working on is if for instance um there's already an existing team that you're joining what are you working on things they struggle with things they love. Again this this can be amended but just gives an idea if I was meeting a team member that I don't know I'm trying to develop a rel relationship with how do I go about it how do I ask about you know it's not just saying tell me about yourself all of that you know what are the things I can do to be able to connect with them.

[00:20:30]So this um this washing instruction, you know, can do the job. I'll stop my screen and go back to the presentation.

[00:20:50]So yes, so knowing your team and building a rapper with them is quite vital because again um you're relying on them to deliver on the objectives the organization has already given you to deliver on. So moving on um and I'm going to stay on this on this part of the it's about communicating clearly and managing consistently. This is an area where um managers are at times missing and it causes some of the um um employee relationship issues that HR is sometimes called in to deal with or help resolve.

[00:21:26]Right? So as a manager you already you you probably have the first view of what the priorities are and your team members discuss um this is what we're expected to deliver. uh you can give your team member a list of 20 things that are the priorities but the 20 things are not the priorities immediately there'll be probably one or two that you need them to focus on and deliver maybe the others are good to do what I found in my experience is that managers just communicate and say oh these are the 20 things so whereas for you maybe number three and four are the most important things the employee is doing number five and six which is easier for them to do or the employee may even be doing 7 to 5 to 20 which they find easier to do. But the main you know the the the core priorities because that's not been communicated to them. They're not focusing on that and then appraisal or reviews come and it's like oh you've not done anything and the person is feeling but I've done number five to 20 right.

[00:22:24]Um and but number five to 20 do not carry as much weight as number two and three. So it's being very clear on what is expected of the employee. Clarity is very key. And on the managing consistently part, right? Um if you've got a team of more than two or three people, you need to be and you need to be seen to be managing them fairly and consistently. Doesn't mean that you manage people the same way. No, because we're human beings and we're not we're all different. But you ensure that whatever decisions you make, especially the again quote the soft ones, whatever decisions you make are justifiable. I am they're not coming from a place of bias and I'll give an example right it's it's usually the case again from my experience I might be wrong but it's usually the case that you might have a team of four people and you'd have one person that goes above and beyond and is over pulling their weight the others are not necessarily floating they just do their job and they need but you have one person that you know that come with me I can I can rely on this person to It is usually easy for a manager to want to encourage again quote unquote that person um and reward them using informal you know informal um informal means. So maybe other people are supposed to, this is a very simp example, maybe everyone supposed to close at 4:00 or because Da is always delivering um can get close at 2:00 or can leave or come in when she wants because she delivers, right? Um and you just allow that and it's not addressed. That's a form of reward, but it's not the right form of reward because people see it and again it will it will it will be coming across to them as not fair and those are part of the things that cause team dysfunction and by time you want to address it you're going to have to do a lot around the team you know building team maintenance and you know building coveness again. So if you've got um a star performer in your team, one thing I always tell my cuz it happens with some of the managers I work with a lot where they won't take a decision and I usually my charism always if it was diary so assuming diary is their staff performer and it's a you know it's a not so pitable decision right and they want to get us like if it was um or if it was Dary that um for instance you know committed this misconduct Um and the range of the range of decisions you can take can say for instance give them a formal warning or give them you know a force warning or you know give them verbal one and all of that. But if it was diary that did this what would your decision be if for instance was diary that bleeding you were going to give a verbal warning ideally that that already shows where your where your leaning should be. There is no need and again this is me giving an example some mar I work with there's no need to go for the hard one because she feel that this is my opportunity to deal with say dam that has not been listening or doesn't do things the way I want her to do it right so let me give her frustrating money so that she know I'm serious right so I would challenge them to if this is your start performer but this um negative decision what would you do and for the ones that you know on on the flip side where it's that you're taking a positive decision decision, right? If this if it was um you know Dula that's not so that just does her job and leaves at 5:00 right if you're going to take decision what would you do so that internal check of this was my best person what would I do actually helps to you know check your bias and ensure that you're trying as much as possible to treat your people with equity uh with equity again I'm caveating it to say that it doesn't mean you have to treat people the same way it's not possible to treat group.

[00:26:26]Um, moving on to that is to be prepared to challenge unacceptable behavior, right? Um, when things that are happening um that should not be happening are happening, don't let it slide.

[00:26:41]This doesn't then mean that you call out say a me publicly and say you don't you shouldn't do that. No, you can pull them into you can have private conversations with them but have those conversations and this is HR company now and document having those conversations um around unacceptable behavior whether it's relating to their performance whether it's relating to conduct and whether they your superstars or not the um managers a lot of managers are not very comfortable having the hard and diff conversation if it's that ahead of having the conversation you need to prepare you need to write and that that I do some of my managers write out everything you're going to say right with the examples um address it because if you don't address it people notice and what you what you're indirectly doing is that you're giving others permission to do the same which you don't want on your team. So, but then you've got to you you know um for some of us we have um team members with very very strong personalities or you you know I don't just want this person's trouble right or this person knows the MD or this person knows the chairman of the board or all of that right um the MD still wants their job the MD still the chairman of the board still wants a company that would you know um be profitable if someone is not doing um their job at the end of the day for them for Most people for most rational people that is the bottom line matters more than you know whether or not you've told off um someone have given a job for not doing their job um properly.

[00:28:19]Um and on to more positive things is to remember to praise excellent performance and conduct. So yes, you've got your um staff performance is very very important that you recognize them or you recognize them using your formal recognition methods. You recognize them by advocating for them, speaking for them in rooms that you know they may not be able to speak for them for themselves.

[00:28:43]Letting people know that this person actually does an excellent job. And at times you know you you're praising the excellent performance of conduct might mean that they end up leaving your team for better things or you know new opportunities. But it's a it's a it's a win-win and a net benefit to the organization. Right. So don't don't um don't over rely on your staff performance such that they um they burn out or they're the ones or you know what we say at times that the reward of good work is more work. You shouldn't do that with your staff performers is is to ensure that you know they're appropriately supported using the right channels um to continue to deliver on the job. Um speaking back to the managing now it will be to develop yourself you know um so you you you know your you know your technical stuff you know your job very well you can do your job sleeping you know but um well not unfortunately but you don't know the HR stuff or the people stuff like HR does so I'd explain that right HR is usually very well aware and knowledgeable about people risk employment law employment legislation what's changing How do you do this? How do you not do that? So it would it would be very good for you as a manager to attend and learn from sessions opportunities that builds your skills as a people manager, right?

[00:30:08]Because this is something um some people again as I mentioned before do this naturally and they know naturally but um it doesn't come naturally to a lot of people but it can be learned if you choose to. So HR is organizing sessions around performance management having difficult conversations doing things around um how do you do probation right and all of that don't just skip them and feel like you know me spending two hours doing this a waste of time no it's not right even if you feel like oh I don't have any um I don't have any problem person on my team still attend that difficult conversations training because when you do right the time when you do need to have difficult conversations with somebody. You're equipped. You already have the uh knowledge to be able to handle those conversations. Related to this is leaning on your HR. Again, like I said uh before, right? HR knows the laws. You you you might know some, but you you you you won't know it in detail as HR does because it's HR's job to know. So when they do give you advice right at times it might be uncomfortable advice or it might not be something you want to do but um if you take anything away from today's session it will be that you should lean into them and listen right and take it because at the end of the day you might be saving yourself you know issues down the line and back to what I said um about identifying leadership earlier setting boundaries being aware of your own wellbeing needs and having your own self as a manager it's almost like you're a parents, everyone in the team comes to you for everything. Boss, have you got 5 minutes? Boss, have you got 10 minutes?

[00:31:47]Boss this, boss that before you know it, right? You've not even done actually if you have to do other things. You're not even done your own job because you know you're attending to everyone else. So be let let your team be very transparent about you know when you're available to your team, what you can support with, what you can't support with. um as managers to related to this is be careful about taking on everything.

[00:32:12]Learn to be able to delegate. Right? So someone has come to you with a problem.

[00:32:16]What do they think the sol as opposed to you know already giving them what the solution to problem is? Is you know so you brought this to me what do you think the solution can be? Of course there are times you have to step in and be very directive and be like this is what we should do. But you know um learn not to take on a lot because you're just one person.

[00:32:38]And then the final thing I will mention is giving yourself risk. You won't always get to try as a people manager.

[00:32:44]There'll be decisions you take that you know were not the right decision of the time right um the times you get things really wrong but take it as a lesson. um rather than beat yourself about it take as a lesson and use it you know put it in whatever if I can call it that your your knowledge toolkit of how you do things better um the next time any questions any contributions at this point before we move into the last section I I can't see the chat Okay. Yeah, Victoria got a question.

[00:33:34]Yeah, please.

[00:33:39]>> Okay. Um, good evening.

[00:33:42]>> Good evening.

[00:33:44]>> Thank you. I know I didn't join from the beginning but I got uh a particular area you talked about delegation.

[00:33:54]Now there are some cases where you found out you're the the only person handling this role as an HRO and just as you said everybody has uh every department rather has a line manager but there are some persons that prefer to bring it directly to HR like they they feel their line manager cannot handle this and often times you've drawn their attention to the fact that you don't just bring things to HR you go through your line manager, but you always have this staff or several of them that will say, "No, HR can handle it better. Let me get to her." And at some point, it gets overwhelming and you want to be like, "Okay, this person is standing. This person is waiting. This person is waiting.

[00:34:43]How do you bring it to their understanding that no, you're not supposed to bring everything to me.

[00:34:48]you're supposed to pass through your line manager and whereby that person cannot handle it then HRO comes in but there's just some very funny staff let me not use the word stubborn very funny stuff that will definitely bring it to you how do you handle such cases thank you ma'am >> okay thank you thank you um this I have direct experience I have direct experience um with so I can totally relate so I'll give you so what what I have done right um where we've where where I've found that people come directly to me as opposed to their manager is the first thing that you've done is have you spoken to your manager if you've not spoke to your manager about it or go back to your manager right go back um go back to your manager if you then feel that your manager is not has not handled it right um then you can come to me and I'm also always clear to people because what I found at least in my own experience is that they feel they they they already they they would not like the decision that their manager would take and at times they come to HR to to raise it so that HR varietes that decision. So again where that's where I found that that's the case I'm always very clear to them to say I'm not your manager and I'm not your manager's manager right so if you if your manager is able to just so if your manager is taking the wrong decision I can definitely speaking to the part of employee boss I can definitely challenge them on that right if it's not the right decision but if it's a reasonable and fair decision um just be prepared so I'm always very clear to them and up front to them that the fact that you brought this to me does not mean I'm going to vide M's decision or that you you get something different from me. What they've also done practically in some of those cases is when they find me on the raises and all of that and I'm like speak to your manager and I know that they speak to their manager before they leave my office is that oh just so just so that we're clear and just in case you know I know you're very busy you might miss this or you things might move on just so it's top of mind to you I'm going to send you an email you know I'm copying um or mobile your manager so that you know at least the job we can have that discussion and whatever it is that you discuss Of course, you can, you know, or agree, you can then come back to me, but you have to hold the line, if I can use that word, in referring them back to their manager, right? And, um, at least in my own experience, it did stop. Um, when when they know that your first question is always go back to your manager or at times, like you say, some might be standing and let them know you've tried you you you've waited two days to see me to discuss this, right?

[00:37:30]You could have gotten an answer two days ago if you just, you know, raise it with your with your manager.

[00:37:38]Does that help?

[00:37:41]>> Sure it does. Thank you.

[00:37:43]>> Thank you. So, we'll move on now.

[00:37:53]>> Okay. Good evening.

[00:37:57]>> Yes, I can. Okay, great. So, I have a question. Um, so my question is, how do you handle situation where managers are shying away from their responsibilities?

[00:38:12]Like, um, they're supposed to manage these employees and when, you know, they have issues with their downliners, they just push them to HR. They just want each child to like step in ASAP and you know um absolve themselves of um managing whatever challenge is that is going on between themselves and um the employee. they are just you know basically after getting the task done right but in terms of managing like the employee experience um communicating culture and all of that um they just you know say it's HRO's job how do you um manage such manager and get them to know that it's a partnership thing it's not just I mean this something that they are supposed to integrate in their day-to-day interaction with their downloads.

[00:39:17]>> Wait, sorry. Are you in a standalone HR role or you've got um >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:39:24]>> So, you're just the only HR in the organization?

[00:39:27]>> Yes.

[00:39:28]>> Um and you're likely just reporting to the CEO, correct?

[00:39:34]>> Yes. The Yeah, COO. And but there are other like team leads that manages the different teams.

[00:39:44]>> So if you report to what's the sales view on you taking on you know is this something you've discussed with them?

[00:39:54]>> You mean the co or >> yeah about managers trying to push some of the things that they should be doing to you.

[00:40:03]Well, I mean, so that's the things. The co I haven't um tried to bring it up to him. However, um I haven't tried to bring it up, but um I keep telling the managers that you know this is um part of what they are supposed to do, >> right?

[00:40:24]>> Yes. So the reason I've said about the CEO thing is is because if you keep telling if if you keep telling the managers but it's not being done right then maybe it probably not that maybe it probably needs a higher level of addressing because um I was having this conversation with someone recently where it was like responsible for culture.

[00:40:44]Yes, HR is responsible or can shape culture but culture is delivered. What's culture? Culture is what the employee experiences every day at work. That's what your actual culture is. no matter what the strategy on culture says, right? So, um the the the managers need to be you probably need a higher level of intervention in communicating that clearly to them. Right? That's one. two would be again things that I've done is find out from the manager and I've put that this is part of I will still go through the slide about regular checking with managers to build a trusted advisor relationship is what's your greatest so using the example of some of the managers I've worked with where they have they they they not able to they're not very not that they're not able to they're very very uncomfortable having difficult conversations right um I'll give an example so where this person that you know the performance wasn't man all of that and the manager was refusing to to do it right so at some point we have to have a sit down what's your greatest fear why why you why don't you why are you not able to address these issues with this person seeing the stress that is causing you and then the person opened up about some of their own personality you know I'm not confrontation I'm not this I'm not that and then we we began to have that person around us because it's your job as a manager to have both the you know the to give both the good news and the bad news. So what I did with that pastor with that um manager was a lot of coaching around you know this how to have this conversation and like I said before you you know even if it comes to the um the part of writing things down write out everything so we just want write down everything you want to tell this person what are the issues again very clear feedback these are the things you're doing well these are things you're not doing very well write it out right and you know we'll go into a meeting with that person. So what I've done with some of them is to then attend so I'm in that meeting with them not leading the meeting but there for support. So um I'm putting into this meeting because XYZ has happened and you know will I talk about how to you know to change things right. So um it was a lot of it did take a lot when I say it did take a lot it took about like almost six six months to one year. So eventually get right get it right with this person but it was a lot of coaching right. So you might have to do that on one hand but then you need your senior leadership to be able to intervene and say actually um sorry I can't see your name and all of that but this person is not going to be effective in their job right if they're having to step in. So organizations do good cop bad cop but you know um assuming your name is my name should not always be the person delivering she's not the person she's not the person's line manager should she she doesn't have the examples she doesn't have the experience and part of your role as a manager is to be able to you know give feed it back so you might have to take it you know approach this in the two ways one you know get your senior leadership or your your manager to intervene but then work with that manager, those managers, let maybe that that that becomes your priority on coaching them to be able to >> to have those conversations. But um you um raise your hand up. So does that answer the question? I can't I don't know who >> it good evening. Um, Miss Lamala, thank you once again for showing up for us.

[00:44:41]>> Well done.

[00:44:42]>> Yes, just to um um as an addent to your some of the things that you clearly very well explained um you know both for the first lady that asked a question and the other lady as well. Um, one of the things that does not allow for um, some people to take on being able to have difficult conversations with their, you know, downliners or, you know, when they're leading a team is because there's no clarity as to their role as team leads or as line managers.

[00:45:18]So, in the UK, they have people that are just managers. They don't have any staff that they manage. they're just called managers. So they just manage the job and the work and all of that that they do. But they have some that are called line managers. And that was because just like um um Damala said, some people do not have the the um the temperament, the kind of personality to manage people, but they can manage the work very well.

[00:45:45]So the ones that they would use as line managers are the people that they know have that temperament because you're going to go through an interview anyway before you can become a line manager. So they will know that you have the temperament. So one of the things that you need to do in your organization is to state clearly what the roles of those managers or the line managers are and what the escalation you know cut off should be before they can bring it to you as HR to then intervene into whatever the situation is. And um just like she said sometimes you know you would have we call them like an observer. So if you have someone you cannot have you are unable to have difficult conversations with you have an observer in the room so that they kind of you know give you that support and you write it is so we cannot overemphasize the fact that you must write down no matter how confident you are as a manager write down everything you want to discuss you want to say it is very very important they used to call you know HR people back Then you know that when you see us, you also see a pen and paper with us, a pen and a notebook.

[00:46:57]There it is always there because not only are you going to write down what you want to say, you're also writing down everything that the other person is saying as much as you can, you know, because at some point you're going to read it back to them to say, did I get you well? Was this what you stated? Did you know did I understand? Did I capture this very well? And then you can make amends wherever there's a gap in what you've been able to capture. So first you must if it's not a culture within your organization you must start building that culture that culture of saying this is where we draw the line for me to intervene for me not to intervene if it doesn't get to this stage I'm not it's not it doesn't have to come to me and all of these things you also need to let them know that you know you have your own work and the more you they keep you know intruding into your own time you will not be able to do but that can be on a high level when you're talking to the higher managers and the CEOs and CEOs and let them know that if this thing is does not become a culture within the organization this is the impact is going to have on your work and they those people will not grow as managers they will never grow because if you don't deal with situations you won't grow you won't be able to you know is the more you surmount the situations you deal with the more knowledge and experience you gather as you as you go along so those are some of the things that I would want you to go back with you know alongside what um all the other training that we've gotten tonight that it has to be you know it has to be clearcut otherwise you would always have that intrusion into your personal time and they will always bring it the more you take it on the more they'll bring it to you that's the that's the that's the part the more they see that you are able to take on you know they've just you've just become a dumping ground for them no this is not our job HR will sort it out sometimes they afraid because they don't want to face it sometimes it's because they feel that they genuinely feel that it's not their responsib ibility, you know, to to brief query or to have, you know, difficult conversations or to do this and that. So, you really need to um start pushing that forward. Thank you very much.

[00:49:02]>> Thank you very much, Amoba. And yeah, you've you've um kind of touched on my first point on how HR can help. Um so just building up I I I won't take I won't over explain this um over explain the the uh that first point but how does how can HR help managers be good managers um and the first one I said third if you can reading it is that help build that their skill sets right especially for people like mentioned that might have been um individual performers right in contributors who like I said for you know managers I just thought the the natural progression of you know of all of the good work that they've done is for them to become people managers. So your organization how do we how should interviews be conducted how do we manage probation how do we have conversations you know difficult conversation we just said what's our approach to pay and promotion right so it's it's good for man when it come especially when it comes to that rear motion um and again hopefully a lot of managers understand need for confidentiality that the fact that you know HR or senior management shares some information with you does not then mean you share that with your team But giving that giving man just those understanding right actually around this pay cuz that's another issue that that's another area of if I can use the word tension giving them an understanding of how these things are done right helps them again to know how to approach and discuss these things with their team. Second is provide support materials you know so tool kits um at least in my own organization we we created a lot of tool kits one around you know um having well-being conversations having difficult conversations um my employee scenarios um my team member has come to say xyz right the tool kits for that that they can easily refer to um one thing when you're creating tool kits is this is to keep it simple Again remembering that managers already have a lot to deal with and they probably will not read a five page or 10 10page document. You know how can I pass how can you pass on the information you want to pass on to them or the support you want to pass on them on paper. How can you you know make it as concise as possible? One thing that I've done in my organization that's also worked well for me uh is so managers have this one pager where it's just HR needs to know right and this is my responsible as a manager so at least the the the the first level and second level managers in my organization know that you know against example of explanation point that if it's not if it's if it's not in Dala's box of to know you don't bring it to Dala or anybody body in our team, right?

[00:51:54]We can deal with that. You can come, you know, at a later point you see us doing lunch or something say, "Oh, I just want to let you know this." That's fine, but you're not bringing it up. So, keep it simple, but have those manuals and scripts too. So, for some of the managers, you know, we already have scripts written where what they then need to just do is plug in the examples.

[00:52:15]And I also tell managers, and I'm showing this again, too, there's nothing wrong with you going into a meeting to say that to be sure that I'm very prepared. and so that we're having a proper and honest and unbiased conversation. I've written down all of these things and I'm going to be referring to my notes. There is nothing wrong with being upfront and clear to the team member about that. Um conduction tells for managers on any HR policies and processes being introduced.

[00:52:42]So again, you give them the eye level, oh this is the employment law changes or this is what this means, right? Speak to the managers. So if it's that it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't always have to be that you're bringing them into a training or bringing them out. It could be that you're going to their team meetings to explain this is what's changing or they've got manager meetings um this is what's changing this is what this means for you this is what you should know this is what you should come to me for as HR if you know you need any support be transparent this I find a lot and it's very important for us in HR to be very transparent on the risk and rationale behind what whatever advice we give right uh because again some of the time managers Don't managers think that we're giving the advice just because which is not the case and it's at times we feel like oh um can I be open um you know this a lot of confidential information that we wrote can we be open to ms about that as much as possible without breaking confidentiality let them know right and so one thing that's also worked in the previous organization I've worked with is some of the er cases or conduct cases that we deal with right we we anonymize them and share them with managers so that they learn from from them. Oh, so this is what this this was the result. What could we have done differently? Again, you already um a manager might not have that problem yet in their team. But then they have a similar problem in the team. They likely refer to that because probably read it somewhere. So it's at the back of their mind. Um this next point worked very well in one organization I also worked with. It was to organize pet learning circles and sessions for managers. So HR doesn't have to be part of it but you know you've got model managers managers who do who you know who role model what a good manager should be right you can organize sessions where these managers are sharing their own experiences with fellow managers so that those ones learn you know learn from that and also have support outside of each other they can go to for advice and um I've mentioned this before it's regular checking with managers to build that trusted advisor relationship So they don't have to come to you for they don't have to come to you before you go to them, right? So um I have have like a schedule. So are we meeting? So am I having a so for for me for instance with senior leadership my direct peers I have weekly oneto ons for with some of them monthly oneto ones with some of them some is bi-weekly with the managers below monthly with those below quarterly but there's always that visibility and checking in with them so that you know before even issues brew or they're thinking about stuff they've already surfaced that and if you need to influence their ideas or their views at that point, you know, you're able to do that. And finally is to encourage a culture of feedback, right? And this is directly with teams. part of some of the issues um organizations sometimes face is that employees that is the people on what I'll call the shop floor feel like you know um we're not heard um nothing's going to change and at HR level we can influence that and we again influence that by being visible if you're for instance the head of HR or you're senior it doesn't have to be you doing that if you got HR business partners admin coordinate you know your HR coordinators you know, you can use them to you um you can use them as avenues to be able to get feedback that you can then feed into your to the managers that you're supporting you, you know, oh, we've heard this, we've heard X, Y, and Z, right? Um is there anything to it, you know, or it might not be true, but it's something you should be aware of and you should work on, right? when people see that some of the feedback that they give um is being actioned, they they come up with, you know, they're more confident to to to surface stuff. And when they surface stuff, it's it's um better for the organization and it's also better for you as a manager because you're able to deal with things, you know, before they um escalate.

[00:56:58]Um that's that from me. We'll take more questions, more contributions now.

[00:57:04]Everyone's got the floor.

[00:57:13]Any questions or comments? I can't see the Yeah, Uncle K. Yeah, I can see. Yeah, carry on.

[00:57:26]Okay, Dar. Yep.

[00:57:30]Hi, thank you very much. This was really interesting to learn um especially from the line manager side. Um I have a question. Um obviously a lot of organizations are going through structural changes. Um and there's a lot of sort of business pressure. How can one handle um the pre business pressure like the conflict that you have to deliver um for your team to deliver but also um alongside the employee well-being and are there any toolkits that you would advise HR um that HR can support on that we can ask our HR teams to to provide?

[00:58:14]>> Right. So to be clear, so you're so the question is as a manager, >> how do I balance the business needs versus some of the restructuring that is happening?

[00:58:25]>> Yes. Productivity, employee well-being, retention. Um yeah, and then what support can um align manager request from HR with that?

[00:58:36]>> So um I'll start with the what support can manager request from HR. Um would go back to part of what I've I've just shared. So my team is coming to me um on questions say for instance it's redundancy my team and we've not yet announced for instance who is at risk of um who's at risk or who's likely going redundant and my team is coming to me for that um I'm a new manager I don't know how to approach that you can definitely go to your HR for that on guide on how to have those conversations right um but speaking to the first point about balancing the business pressures and managing productivity so first of all if organization is going to restructuring. Um I think at a senior level they would there will be a slight expectation that until it's completed um um performance might not be might deep and wouldn't be what it should be because everyone is worried. Um, usually I I don't know if your organization does and I hope they do. Um, they usually support for those of us who are from Nigeria. I don't know and you can just, you know, comment if it's a thing in Nigeria now where you've got like employee assistance programs. Is that a thing?

[00:59:55]>> No, I guess not.

[00:59:57]>> Yeah. Well, it depends on the organization actually.

[01:00:01]Right.

[01:00:02]>> Multinational.

[01:00:03]>> Yeah. It's not popular yet.

[01:00:06]>> It's not popular yet, but some some are already taking it on.

[01:00:10]>> Right. So, if your organization does have one um does have one, it will be to use those because they're partially independent, right? It will be to use it will be to it will be for you as a manager to sign post your team members to use those resources. In cases where say you're in Nigeria and it's not a thing and people are genuinely worried.

[01:00:31]I think this is where the giving yourself grace and knowing what you need to focus on as a manager comes in because you probably the one carrying all of that and you you probably have to be the one giving them assurance. So again it's it's been it's been realistic as to um until this is over until the restructure is over probably my job as a manager is providing assurance um and reassurance uh and supporting the team's well-being in the sense of well you can you can you can ask them not to worry they will worry but it's what can we do what's in our control what's not in our control and trying to focus on that Um whilst also again taking a step back where you know it becomes too difficult back to what I said before about you know setting boundaries and young selfcare knowing where things might be you know where oh I'm not able to support with this it's very fine to be able to tell your team and I think that they won't mind that you know I don't have the answer I don't know this you know let's wait and see and just carry on. Does that help?

[01:01:41]>> Yes it does. Thank you. And if you don't mind, can I ask another question?

[01:01:46]>> Okay. Sorry. Sure.

[01:01:48]>> Oh, no. Sorry. I'm happy to pass along and come back to me. Thank you.

[01:01:52]>> Okay. I'll come back to you. I can see Olu do.

[01:01:57]>> Thank you very much. That's been Damala.

[01:01:59]That's been a very wonderful presentation so far.

[01:02:02]>> Thank you.

[01:02:03]>> Oh, great. So, uh I had a question that during an interview session, uh there was a question that was asked. All right. So the HR reports to the MD and then >> the MD of course has um board of directors. Okay, that probably uh is answerable to. Okay, so the question the MD has the question. So if the MD of a company starts um uh misbehaving and then um maybe commit some fraud or uh some some things that that that contravene to the policy of the company as a HR of the company what do you do how do you handle it?

[01:02:53]>> Right? So two two approaches two approaches to this right. So if if you're in the UK that's kind of almost simp simple to handle because um with that as a child so you report to probably the CEO or the CEO or whatever but you still kind of like have a line to the board. So you can take that up directly with the board, right? Because um if you see committed a misconduct, an investigation will need to be done, you're not assuming or if there's an allegation of a misconduct, >> right? Um it needs to be investigated because the even if the owner of the company, at least in the UK, um it still needs to be investigated and um checked whether or not there's some truth. If there's some truth, if there's some truth to it, then you follow your processes. If it's in Nigeria, Yeah, that was my answer actually. But the MD said that uh you don't report to directly to the board.

[01:03:49]>> No, you you at least in my experience, you have a line to the board.

[01:03:54]>> Oh, you Yes, you'd have a line to the board through the people committee or remission committee or whatever the committee is, you you would have as as the head of HR, you in my experience, you would have along the board. Okay.

[01:04:11]>> So, you can take that up there because it needs to be even if it needs to be investigated, right? Because there might be truth to you, there might be no truth to you, but it needs to be investigated.

[01:04:21]And you know, yeah, you you would have because the um there's also a conflict of interest for the CEO, right? You can't investigate yourself. So, that would need to be separate.

[01:04:36]>> Yep.

[01:04:38]>> Okay. So you were stopping, you were now giving a scenario Nigeria.

[01:04:41]>> Oh, sorry. Yes. So if it's Nigeria, yes, sorry, let me start. If it's Nigeria though, um might be dicey. Um but if you've got a compliance function, you can raise it confidentially, but it still needs to be regardless, it still needs to be investigated and checked, right?

[01:05:02]even if they were the owner of the company because um in these days where uh there's a lot of reputation there's a lot of companies face more um in social media companies face more we can give examples of companies like that companies face more reputational risk right um someone has said something you don't do anything about it you do investigate it and then next thing you're seeing on social media and even this year alone we can give examples of where we've seen you know senior leaders in organizations in Nigeria, you know, um um facing the ro of social media for um misconduct.

[01:05:39]So, yeah, you will still need to check that out. Um regardless, >> very well. Yeah, but you said of course you need to investigate, right? That's very very apt, but how do you investigate? So, Della just mentioned whistleblowing.

[01:05:55]>> Yeah, there's whistleblowing in the UK.

[01:05:57]Um I don't know if it's I'm not sure it's very strong in Nigeria, right? Um or speak up. I'm not sure that's very strong. But if someone has made an allegation and it's the same regardless if you made an allegation, you should be prepared to back up the allegation with evidence or why you think that this is so you need to give people um you need to give HR or if it's compliance that then takes over because it's a senior person, you need to give them something to work on, right? You can't just make a malic well it might not be malicious but you can't just make an allegation right without anything um for the team to investigate. So I can't just say for instance Dr. slaps the mola um without saying when what day happened, when it happened, if there were any witnesses, right? So the the the the report or the allegation should at least come with basic things that um that can form the basis of an investigation.

[01:06:57]>> Is that okay?

[01:06:59]>> Yes, I think it's clear.

[01:07:01]>> Thank you very much. Thank you.

[01:07:04]>> Okay. If if I might just add a little bit to that. Yes. Uh in most structures in Nigeria, most organizational structures structure in Nigeria, um the organog is such that HR does not really report to the board, reports to the MD or the CEO. Um I think it's only majorly I say most structures anyway it is the audit that has a dotted reporting line to the board and also to the MD. Okay. So in most organizations like that HR's hand may be tied and sometimes they may have a dotted reporting line to maybe the um governance committee or something like that at the board. Okay. But um in a scenario like that, I think somebody has dropped their answer is good to have something documented to the MD. If there's a mail where you will just write and say your view that um MD in my view I think this breaches the um process of the organization or this can be seen as an infringement or something that is just advise that thing in an email. have it on record that you have said your own. Keep the email even if you know that what this man has done is outrightly wrong or has gone against the policy of the organization or has done something illegal you know have it documented and if you have a very strong whistleblowing system well usually I don't advise that but you might have to do that and do a whistle blow okay with substantial evidence that they won't have to come back and say, "Well, this is baseless and doesn't have sufficient information to see it through." So, if you have sufficient information to back it up, you could do an anonymous whistle blow, if you strongly feel that well, the the good in that whistleblow is better than what what the MD is doing. So um in that kind of structure well that that might just be it for you. So sorry to have um jumped in.

[01:09:28]>> Yeah that's fine. Sure. We'll come to you but in the case where audit might have a reporting line because you don't know whether the CEO has done it. This MD has committed the misconduct or not right. So if you if you're sending them and you don't want to tip them off. So I would be worried about sending the but that's my own personal view about sending the CEO an email just to say that this has been you know said about you and all of that because you don't know whether they've done it or not and if they've done it you don't want to tip off beforehand. So if there lines where for instance HR does not have it does not have like a line to the board right but has a line to audit um it could be and I use the word compliance it could be that you raised that with them and just check it out is there any truth to this except maybe they've brought you the evidence and you you know it's very clear that this year has done all of this then maybe that email will work but I would say if you're not Sure. Then maybe do some investigation first.

[01:10:32]Chihi, I'm trying to look at the time.

[01:10:35]Um, please you have the floor.

[01:10:39]>> Yeah, good evening everyone. Thank you very much Sam. Yeah, I have two question. One is relatively to this word that is just being answered and that is when the evidence is very glaring and that line manager uh maybe is related to the chairman of the board and there are evidences that this person was involved in a fraud and they will say no just forget this person other staff members will invest investigated but for this person just forget it. How would you handle that? The evidences is so glaring. They were involved in a fraud but the chairman's wife say no for this person don't talk about it. You can go on investigating others. One two when you have a line manager that is very toig people have been reporting about that same person. You've tried reaching out to the person one on one and most times she will just feel like HR cannot do me anything. H I know I know the chairman's wife. So at that point too, how do you handle such manager because me I've tried once trying to send a mail to the GM who I report to and copy the executive director. I just did a me to make it official like you said just to have something to back up because people are leaving out of her toxicity. She's very toxic. You'll be in meeting people are standing to complain about her. They even crying at that point there's nothing you can do. So how do you handle such situation as a h?

[01:12:25]This is um well it's quite surprising that um because it's it's quite surprising um to me if the chairman's wife is saying but so this is the chairman's wife I'm not the chairman correct >> yes not the chairman but >> so the question are you able to tie yeah are you able to tie this to your bottom line because if I'm losing money I I don't think and that's why why use the word surprising because if I'm losing money because of someone's misconduct that is not being, you know, that's not been addressed and I'm still saying, well, I don't mind losing this money, just leave the person. Um, I I would find that very surprising. So, maybe another approach would be to to to show in monetary terms the cost of, you know, the cost of this person's behavior. So if we five people have left and we've had to replace them how much has that has that cost us maybe if we put it in narrow terms that might be something well I don't know the dynamics of the chairman and the wife relationship and all of that but maybe putting things in you know narrow co terms might might help. Um and if that doesn't help, this may be where you lean back on your own on your understanding that which I tell people um I tell some colleagues at times in my team is as HR we're not advis we're not enforcers right we're not decision makers we're advisers and I mentioned that at the beginning where you know you give advice or you say this is not the right thing to do or this is the right thing to do don't do it and at the end of so good that you send the email Right. And you've been even able to document that. But maybe try another approach as to showing the cost of this person's um behavior for the second one.

[01:14:17]What's the I think the first one is related to that. What um could you remind me of the first question again?

[01:14:24]>> Person is involved in fraud with clearing evidence.

[01:14:28]>> Yeah. But the immunity they said forget this person. You can go ahead and take actions on the other members, staff members, but this person should be exonerated even when >> this person is a line manager.

[01:14:40]>> Yeah, he's a line manager.

[01:14:42]>> The again and have they seen so is the um a question again that the chairman and the wife would have to answer and maybe at this point again you just document that this is it and this was the um instruction I was given. if your values can allow you know again some of it might be values do I want to do I want to be in this kind of organization in the first instance but again that's separate conversation it's to document like you've done before that X Y and Z were involved in all of this um to be clear you're saying remove Dola and then investigate the other people just so if it comes you know if the the shoe drops is that you were very clear advice and be be prepared to challenge and clear on why, you know, everyone should be investigated. Um, but I'm quite it's quite interesting that, you know, you you got it sounds like a familyowned business, but you don't mind losing, you know, losing money um to cater to a family member or a relative or whatever the relationship is. But yeah, in that case it will be to to to have it documented like you've done the other one that you you said this person should not be investigated and let them come back to you or they might not even come back to you to um but at least you've got your evidence um for that and yeah more for you is the values. Is that the is that the place you want to be? But really it's there's not much um you can do if the business owner you know is refused to take action and then we'll go back to Dary.

[01:16:30]Thank you. You just about hit the nail on the head when you say you know for me you're in a toxic environment. There seem to be sacred cows that are untouchable within the organization because of nepotism. You know, somebody knows somebody who knows another person.

[01:16:49]That's not a place for a solid HR person to be. One of the ethos of being an HR is that if anything is going wrong, um leaving is always an option. Res resignation is an option. you can explore that start you know looking at your exit planning towards your exit because it's there's no point in you looking at things that are not being done the right way in the first instance when you join the organization one of the things that I always push for HR people is that when you join any organization what are the their consequence management like what happens you know what what how what is the uh I'm trying to use the right words now.

[01:17:40]What what um what sort of framework or structure do they have in place for consequence management? Is it to such extent that it can affect you know the MD or the CEO who is the owner of the organization or are they exonerated from that so there's no consequences to anything that they do or is it to such extent that okay if it's that MD then we are going to call in external auditors or forensic auditors or something something you know that can come and look at it if that's that's not in an organization that organization is not going to it's already there's something already wrong where you have people that are untouchable. It's already wrong. So if you join an organization these are some of the things that you should look out for and they are red flags if they are not in place. They are red flags. So for me you know start planning your exit just put your exit kickstart your exit plan because all of these things has to be in place. You can't have an organization where someone is telling you that not even the MD is the MD's wife. Maybe they're in cohorts together.

[01:18:48]That's why they don't want to be they don't want that person to investigate them or they don't want anybody to query them. Maybe they they're doing it together and it's a case of if this person gets exposed is going to have a knock on effect on me as the MD's wife.

[01:19:03]So it's it's it's not it's not a good place for you to be pleased and for anybody else you know that's on this call. It's not a good place. Thank you.

[01:19:12]>> Yeah, thank you Dar.

[01:19:18]>> Hi. Um, yes, thanks for coming back to me and some amazing questions. Um, I just have like a really general question about HR capabilities um over the next 5 years and what would be most critical for managers. There's a lot of organizational changes going across the globe and I want to know what you've kind of observed and what you advise managers to be most prepared for.

[01:19:47]Um that's a big one. Um in my view it will be the ability to deal with change and to to be adaptable and flexible because things are very fluid and things would always change. um a business could have a like you said before a business could have a priority today and tomorrow is facing a restructure or things change. So, it's that ability to be able to manage change um and be flexible that I would say is a skill that um managers and everyone generally should should should have the ability to be able to adapt and um for lack of better go with the flow um given the work environment that we have that we're work that that we have now would be a great skill.

[01:20:36]>> Thank you. You're welcome. One last question. I don't want us to go. We're almost eating the 30 minutes mark. So, last question. Last comment that can I >> Okay. Before we leave that, can I quickly ching something to that question?

[01:20:51]>> Sure.

[01:20:53]>> Okay. So, part of the future of HR to me is that I think um well, it's not future anymore. It's actually here that HR is more and more people centered now. Um so and also part of what we're going into is the emergence of AI um and how that is also going to be changing the world of work. So um yeah you have said it that person should be adaptive. Yes. Because of what is coming. But we must also be aware that um the reality the future is already here and AI is actually going to change the world of work and how we see HR in the future. Thank you.

[01:21:43]>> Thank you very much. Um Uncle K I guess was that you?

[01:21:51]>> Yes. Yes, it's me.

[01:21:52]>> Good. Yeah. Thank you. So that's it from me. Um, thank you all for your time. Um, I really appreciate the engagement and I hope that for everyone that has joined, we found it very um, useful. Um, over to you Mr. Okay. Um, I think Dr. is a little bit busy right now, but Right. Okay. So, thank you everyone for joining. Trust you've again found it useful. Um, enjoy the rest of your evening and the rest of your week.

[01:22:35]>> Thank you so much.

[01:22:38]>> Thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:22:46]>> Facilitator. Thank you so much.

[01:22:52]I'm