Dr. K effectively reframes depression from a terminal conclusion into a manageable systemic condition by integrating biological, psychological, and spiritual perspectives. This dialogue provides a powerful synthesis of clinical rigor and human empathy, offering a nuanced roadmap for those who feel traditional treatments have failed them.
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1 Psychiatrist & 20 Depressed People (ft. Dr. K) | SurroundedAdded:
my grandfather passed away and I felt like I lost a part of myself. I can't get back. I can't fix it. I can't mend it because they're they're not here anymore.
>> So, you know, I'm doing the thing that I love. Yet, I still felt, God, I feel like I've never felt more alone.
>> This protects you.
>> It does >> from being disappointed.
>> It does.
>> But it traps you.
>> Every every day I feel like might be my last.
>> Are you watching this feeling hopeless or broken? Are you doing all the right things but still feel deeply depressed?
I'm John Regalado and from Jubilee Media, this is Surrounded, featuring 20 people who are struggling with depression. Now, if you've seen the show before, you know it's built around debate. But today, we're doing something different. This won't be a debate, and this time the flags won't be used to vote someone out of the circle. They'll signal your desire to speak with our featured guest, psychiatrist Dr. K.
Welcome to the show.
>> Thanks for having me.
>> Thank you all for being here. We're very appreciative of you guys sharing your stories. Let's get into it.
>> My first surrounded claim is you're not broken, you're overwhelmed.
>> Levels, you ready to go? Let's have you in the center.
>> What's your name, man?
>> I'm Levels.
>> Okay. Nice to meet you, Levels. the claim I'll say for me personally I feel like I was broken um I went through uh my uncle passing away um and then the next year my grandfather passed away and I felt like a part of me broke um when he went a part of me died with him so when I went through my throws of depression which I you know I'm still in it you know I had my days my good days my bad days I kind of went down that path of like I I lost a part of myself I can't get back I can't fill that void. I can't fix it. I can't mend it because they're they're not here anymore.
>> What did you lose?
>> Um I feel like I lost my comfort, you know, >> comfort.
>> I would talk to him about kind of like, you know, hey, grandpa, I'm sad. Hey, you know, grandpa, um I'm having a hard time at school. Hey, what do you think?
And you know, he's old. He'll go off and have his little conversation about conspiracy theories. I'm like, oh, haha, that's that's cool. But it's like it's it's nice to have somebody in your corner.
>> Yeah. I mean, I I think this is one of those claims that I I sort of agree with you already.
>> Yeah.
>> When we lose someone, that person's gone forever.
>> Yeah.
>> And we're never getting them back.
>> Yeah.
>> And um it also sounds like he was a really important part of of being a safe space for you, someone that you could talk to.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Can you tell me a little bit more about him?
>> Um well, he was a veteran, so you know, there's stuff he didn't really talk to us about, but you know, he would take us camping and you know, bowling. I mean, I was his first grandchild, so I kind of all my memories were kind of tied to him, you know, going to his house, having pie, even though pie is not the best thing to have, you know, have for breakfast, but it was nice. You know, I think it's a great breakfast.
>> You know, he would take me places. He would tell me like, "Oh, this is my favorite food. Let's try it. Let's go do this. Let's do that." You know, it it was just nice. You know, I have to say my parents didn't do that. You know, it was just like having somebody outside of, you know, your parents. It was nice to have him. So, and and when you lost him, what did you lose with him?
>> I guess my everything. I didn't know how to function. I mean, I have support, but he was kind of like the main per like the first person I would go to. And then he he he died of leukemia.
And for me, um, my family was upset and I was kind of trying to be stronger for them. So, I I didn't realize how bad it had got. Like, I I mostly wish I had more time with him. like I was there for him physically.
>> Well, it sounds like you were also present for your family when he passed.
>> I didn't I didn't let myself mourn. I didn't let myself cry. I was more so like it's okay. I'll be there for you.
And then when they were done mourning, it kind of got to a point where I was like, "Maybe I can be upset about this."
And it kind of triggered everyone around me like, "Hey, let's not do this right now." Like I'm trying to relax. I'm like, "Hey, I'm hurting."
>> Oh boy.
>> Yeah. But it's also like they >> So, first you chose not to mourn.
>> Yeah.
>> And then when you tried to mourn, >> they were already done mourning.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I mean, no wonder you feel broken cuz I I think you haven't had a chance to heal yet.
>> No, not really. But I put it off to the side kind of like he's there, you know, and when I get older and my time comes, I'll get to see him again. That's kind of what kind of keeps me going, that, you know, I'm being watched over. So I I think this is also really interesting because you're kind of saying that what you will never get back, right? Because that's what you're kind of thinking is this person who is safe.
>> Yeah.
>> And here we are and when you start mourning, what do the people around you do?
>> They're kind of off. They're like, "Hey, it's let's not talk about it right now."
>> And and I think it sort of makes sense like I know this sounds crazy, but it it kind of makes sense, right? Because if you weren't given a chance to mourn, if if people didn't make you feel safe, if they didn't take good care of you, and then you like literally like that's what happened. Well, no wonder you would think that this is the only person that'll do it because like he was the only one that literally did it.
>> Yeah.
>> And at the same time, I don't know that that's true forever. Does that kind of make sense?
>> Yeah. But it's like I feel like for me it is cuz I don't address it, >> you know? I kind of I'm like, "Okay, let's put it in a little box."
>> Well, that's because that's what the people around you told you to do.
>> Yeah.
>> If you can find that safety, maybe if you can advocate for yourself a little bit more, and I know this is tricky, right? Because the whole problem here is that people have not been taking care of you. I I think getting getting some degree of like anger and sort of like letting people know around you like how not okay it is.
>> Yeah.
>> That you're hurting and you took care of them and like now it's their turn.
>> Yeah. Does that resonate with you at all or does it send you running for the hills?
>> Well, it does. I mean, like current issues, my grandma's health, I've been more vocal about being upset versus before where I was like, "It's okay. He got to make a choice. You know, we should be happy for him. He can advocate."
>> And And now that you're more vocal, what's >> I'm more I'm more aggressively vocal.
And they're like, "Okay, like we can't do anything about what she's doing." I'm like, "Why?" I guess I'm being more open about this feeling because it's in the now and not in the past.
>> Yeah. So, I'm I'm actually like somewhat optimistic for you. I know it sounds crazy, but >> how could you not mess with >> Cuz I because I I think now you're doing something really scary, but very different, which is you are opening yourself up for other people to help you. And the real tragedy of life is when we open ourselves up to be helped by other people. Sometimes they meet us halfway and sometimes they don't.
>> Yeah.
>> But I I I think give give people a chance. Yeah. Great.
>> We're going to pause here. Thank you. Do I shake your hand? We're going to switch participants.
>> Okay.
>> Sorry.
>> Uh C. Uh you had your flag up. You ready to go to the center?
>> Hi.
>> Hey. What's your name?
>> Uh my name is C.
>> C.
>> Yeah. C.
>> Nice to meet you, C.
>> Nice to meet you. Um so I'm a former foster kid and for all my life um I I've lived differently from everyone else essentially from surviving. I wasn't taught normal societal like behaviors or emotions because I had to take care of myself while being in a dangerous uh environment. And what's interesting is that even though physically, mentally I'm fine and I feel great and I can do my daily task, interact with people, it's still stuck in my body. I feel the depression like like right now I don't want to cry, but for some reason my body just wants to let it out. And before I wouldn't let it because growing up in a Hispanic culture they'd be like, "Oh, I was like, "Why are you crying?" Like, "You want to cry? Okay, I'll make you cry." To where it was like, "Okay, like I can't I can't." But the more that I would hold it in and push it down, the worse it became until eventually I just let it out. It's like my nervous system and my mind are completely separate >> and they're going into different things to where my body doesn't recognize that I'm safe. Like now I'm safe. No one is going to hurt me. No one's coming after me. no one is going to physically or emotionally hurt me, but my body is still in that hypervigilant state. It's where it's always aware. It's always like, okay. And there are times where it's just becomes overwhelming. There are times where it looks like disassociation, night terrors, um to where it feels like it's hard to trust or connect with people. It's it's feels like I'm still in that like physical state whereas like mentally I'm I'm great. I just don't know how to I've gone through the work. I go through depression. I'm taking anti-depressants.
I've taken like multiple classes and courses and therapies, but I just want to understand why this happens so much.
Why is it that my body reacts so differently from my brain? So, the first thing we're going to talk about is dissociation.
You have two parts of your brain, two hemispheres. Your right hemisphere is where we experience emotions. Your left hemisphere is where we're basically logical. I mean, that's not necessarily true, but broadly it's true. Now, here's the really interesting thing. In the middle there's this part of our brain called the corpus colossum. And the corpus colosum is what lets the right part of our brain talk to the left part of our brain. And when people grow up in a very traumatic environment, that thing stops communicating. You may experience that everything is fine.
>> The left side of your brain, which is active right now, is saying, "Okay, we're at work. We're maybe like going to go get some ice cream after work." and you're like living a normal life, but the other half of your brain is screaming. And the problem is the volume has been turned down so we can't hear it or the headphones are unplugged. So even though the signal is there, this part of your brain is screaming, the left side of your brain doesn't really feel it except there are times where it switches over and then we feel all of these weird emotions. Like we feel all these emotions that we had no idea like where this is coming from. feels really inappropriate because I'm like sitting here having my ice cream and my body is telling me like, "Oh my god, we're going to die." or something like that, right?
So, this is this is a a really really classic situation. I think a big part of this and and the good news is that we can heal from this. Um what's really hard about this is how confusing it is because you see like other people react appropriately to the things that happen around them. But literally what's happened is you have all of these pent up reactions that you've been carrying with you. And I can see that this is bringing up. What are you feeling?
>> I don't know what it is. It's just kind of just what I do is I don't even just let it out. It's as if my body wants to cry, but I'm I'm listening to you and I'm I'm not crying, but my body is.
>> Yeah. See, it's happening right now. And And so what when when you feel this way, what do you do? Um, before it used to be really bad where I would uh like hit my forearm or hit myself and be like, "No, you can't feel this way." Um, to where now I've learned that I let it be, let it process. You know, if I'm going to cry, it's like I I even close my eyes and I go, "It's okay. It's okay. You're safe. No one's going to hurt you."
>> I just breathe and I just let it out.
Because the more I let it out, the more I I let it be. Then it kind of goes through this like stress cycle and I'm able to like be myself again. And then after that, I go hang out with friends, I go outside, touch grass. It's the touch, sight, smell, and feel that I do to kind of be present.
>> You figured all this stuff out on your own?
>> Yes.
>> This is amazing.
Yeah. I think what's so sad about this is just how much of this should have been done for you. I think people don't realize this. The way that we manage our emotions is through other people.
>> Even now, you're sort of like a foster kid surviving on your own, right? And and this is a situation where I think like the the healthiest thing is that someone else should actually handle that emotion for you that you shouldn't have to deal with this all all on your own and and cope with it and that you should be able to cry and get angry and things like that. Right. So like like what a parent does when a kid is like 3 years old and they're learning how to cry, which you haven't been able to do because of what seems like some amount of Hispanic upbringing, foster care, things like that.
>> Yeah. My parents didn't like me because I was gay. So they kept me away from society, kept me away from people. Like they had me essentially say, "You're essentially a demon. So you need to stay in this area and this is how you should act and be. You're quiet. You are so messed up."
>> So that's what I've learned and now I'm trying to readapt to it. And the biggest thing is is feeling my emotions like this. I can control this. I It's so hard.
>> Yeah. So you know there's a modality called EFT which is called the emotional freedom technique. There's a lot of studies now that show that trauma is stored in the body. And I think that these reactions that you're having where you feel like your body wants to cry and your mind doesn't, like that's where like literally stuff is stored is pent up. And I think it's got to come out.
And I think the most important thing, I know this sounds crazy, but I think the most important thing is trying to find someone who will deal with it for you because you've dealt with it on your own for like far too long.
>> So what does that look like then?
It's a great question. Um, sometimes this can be a therapist, sometimes it can be a friend. I I think it can look a lot of different ways. Tragically, you were not given that growing up. Um, and I think this is one of the the saddest things in psychiatry, how how insufficient treatment is a substitute for love.
>> And I think like love really goes a long way.
>> Yeah. That and for me it looks like actions too.
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you, C. We're gonna pause here participants.
>> Um before I call the next person, uh can we fly in maybe some tissues if if people need them?
>> Raise your hand if you if you need to grab a couple.
>> I brought I brought one. I came prepared.
>> That's okay.
>> May need more than one.
>> All right. Uh maybe everybody just take like one cleansing breath. I know takes energy to listen. It takes energy to to share. Uh, but thanks everybody for the generosity.
All right, going to choose the next participant. Leah, I saw your your flag up. You ready to go?
>> Let's do it.
>> Hi.
>> Hi.
>> I'm Leah.
>> Leah. All look. Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Well, I just wanted to for one uh say that I've related to things that both of these people have been saying um before me. First in the in the grief um my dad passed away 6 years ago that has been a significant source of my depression and I have treatment resistant depression but it's it's not for the lack of wanting to be treated. I would do anything for something that works, but like nothing has like it's like my mind is I feel like is searching for more reasons to be depressed sometimes. And also I relate to the dissociation like half of me is like somewhere and the other half is like super depressed. So for example um I'm a musician um and how I cope is actually writing about this really deep dark stuff like suicidality and stuff. I write about that. Um, I was at a show and the and the show was going objectively really well. Um, sorry. Um, yeah, I just looked out at the um, sorry, I don't even know why I'm crying right now. Um, objectively everything was good.
I just looked out at the crowd. Um, and just the I felt so empty.
Um, so, you know, I'm doing the thing that I love. Um, yet I still felt God, I feel like I've never felt more alone.
Um, sorry, I did not expect to cry.
>> Um, >> yeah. Can I? Yes, please.
>> So, Thank you so much for um sharing. What was your name again?
>> I'm Leah.
>> Leah. Here. Here's what I'm hearing. So, here you are. You make music. You use it to cope.
>> But I imagine you like it, too.
>> Yeah, of course.
>> And you're on stage. You're actually like kind of at the height of joy and fulfillment in your life. Like, this is what you came here to do.
>> Yeah. I mean, I'm not exactly where I want to be yet. I'm sure that there's, you know, stuff that can be better, but if we think about, you know, just the moments of joy.
>> Yeah.
>> And you're denied that.
>> Yeah. It's like things are starting for me. And um >> And then >> why am I still not >> Yeah. Right. So So I I'm almost like thinking about how hard it must be for the things in life that are supposed to feel really good >> Yeah.
>> to feel so alone.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And and I I really hear that you're you've got treatment resistant depression. And I I I hear that if some if anything could take this feeling away, right? If anything would just allow you to experience life the way that regular human beings do, which is like when I'm on stage and having a good time and everyone's singing lyrics, I should be having a good time, too.
>> Yeah.
>> And that feels really, really terrible.
Yeah.
>> Like you're being denied the chance to live an ordinary life.
>> Yeah. That's sort of like why it's so bad.
>> Yeah. So, let me ask you this. Why do you How do you understand that your mind is searching for reasons to be unhappy?
>> Well, I'm super judgmental of myself. Um so, >> um my self-t talk is like very negative.
I'm sort of like at a constant like argument with myself. So it's like but I'm also like I know that I have to like accept these thoughts and not argue with them to get better. Like I know the solution on paper. It's just harder to apply and practice. For example, again the stage thing like I'm doing what I love, right? Why is my brain it feels like it's like looking for reasons to be upset. So, here's one of the tricky things I've learned as a psychiatrist, and I I've worked a fair amount with people with treatment resistant depression. Speaking of humility, I think there's three patients that I've worked with that I really have not been able to help that I can think of, and I remember them very well and we tried really hard and I think I I hate that, but >> what do you do about something like that?
uh I mean tried all kinds of things but I I think the good news is that you know for the three patients that I've worked with who have treatment resistant depression I've worked with 50 to 75 that things have worked and the one thing that I would really tunnel down into just cuz cuz we have a little bit of time here is to really pay attention to that part that is searching for a reason to be unhappy. So don't argue against yourself but try shifting your attention away from that towards other things. I definitely tried >> and and I think that that's that's a skill and >> and it sometimes it works, >> right? So if it if it works sometimes then that's where I think learning to be better at it can offer some relief.
>> It's just the fact that it always goes back.
>> That's where we get to part number two.
>> Okay, >> which is to understand why your mind there's a part of your mind that is really really unhappy with being a happy.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. the most alone that you felt is when you are actually should be the happiest. Yeah.
>> And so to really understand what it what is it within you that is looking for unhappiness.
>> We're going to we're going to pause here. Leah, thank you. We're going to switch participants.
>> Good luck, Leah.
>> Thank you.
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>> My next surrounded claim is that hopelessness feels like a conclusion but it's actually a symptom.
Joseph, would you like to be our first participant? Sure.
>> All right. Head to the center.
>> Hey, Joseph.
>> Hi, Dr. K. How you doing today?
>> Good.
>> Good to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you, man.
>> Well, does hopelessness feel like a conclusion to you?
>> That's part of my issues is that when I am super depressed and I'm at the depths of everything, that's where it feels like there's no way out. And so, is this a symptom of something that's bigger or is this my final state? And so that's where I get stuck because I know that this is a symptom, but the overwhelming thoughts is like this is my conclusion.
This is where I'm stuck and there is no escaping this. That's where I feel like I can't gain the traction. Even though I know I'm supposed to and I have the skills and I've met doctors and worked on this, I don't know how to get past that. So I get bogged down that I'm stuck here that >> Yes. So this seems really hard because it sounds like you actually know on some level that this is this is a symptom.
>> Yes.
>> You've worked with doctors. You've learned the skills in your head. You're telling yourself, "Oh, this is just a symptom. This is not a conclusion."
You're you try to disbelieve yourself, >> right? And then what happens?
>> Well, then that's where I've made more progress. I'm not as stuck as I was. And thankfully, but I still have to work on this all the time. it never goes away and I wax and I wayne. So when I'm feeling like I can't gain traction to get out of here and I don't know what my next steps are, it gets so scary that it's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can feel it dragging me backwards and that led to ultimately to uh some very very deep depression uh suicide attempt um the loss of my employment and so that didn't help you know.
>> Yeah. So so what I'm kind of getting the sense of is that you'll struggle for a while but then it feels like inevitably you're going to get dragged down.
>> Right. when I feel like I'm I'm dragging myself backwards and I'm never going to get out of this and uh it's like, "Oh no, here we go again."
C >> can I ask you when you say I'm dragging myself backwards?
>> Yes.
>> What is that? Help me understand why you think it's you who's doing the dragging.
>> Well, that's uh my inner struggle. Your inner voice talking with you is like, well, you know better. you know that this is going to hurt, you know, and that that this is something that is bad for you to to bedrot, to to doom scroll, to just feel hopeless. I feel disappointed in myself because I feel like I know better.
>> Would you say that disappointed is is almost like self-loathing?
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> How do you relate to that loathing feeling that you have towards yourself?
>> So, I what happens when that starts to happen is I proceverate on all the issues. I lost my job. I disappointed my family. I lost my identity being a fireman. I mean, firemen are very wrapped up in their in their profession.
That becomes part of their identity.
Fortunately, I tried to avoid that, but it still grabbed me. So, that just really weighs heavy on my mind because I look at all the things that I destroyed or gave up. So, this is what's so tricky, right? Because what I'm noticing is that not only do you have the symptoms of depression, you actually have something else on top of that, which is a lot of blame for being depressed.
>> Yes.
>> After all, you've put in the work.
>> You tried everything, right? And it's a skill. And the every day is, oh my god, it's like every day is a struggle. Every day is a struggle. Do you ever kind of tell yourself if you were different or if I did things better, then like all of this stuff would be working better?
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
>> So, let me ask you this, Joe, and I don't know if this makes sense. There's the depression that you feel and then there's the way that you argue with yourself about the depression. Yeah. The way that you judge yourself for having the depression. What I think is really interesting is that's what's keeping it alive. Do you kind of get that?
>> Yes, absolutely. And I've worked on that with my doctors. You know, um one of the things that my doctor and I used to talk about is um I feel like what worked for me to get traction going was I was going to fake it till I make it. I'm going to act like I'm happy until I acting happy, you know? Okay. Um, so I find myself feeling like if I don't do that, I'm just going to continue to beat myself up and it's just going to keep going and going and going and I'm never going to make any progress.
>> There's a lot of studies on something called behavioral activation, >> which we think that we have to feel better in order to do more, right? I want to feel better so I can get out of bed, right? Whereas there's a lot of evidence that shows that sort of faking it till you make it actually works pretty well. That when we step out of bed, when we force ourselves out of bed, the feedback that we get can actually be helpful. So I I can totally see why that has been helpful for you.
>> I think the the thing that scares me the most and feels so oppressive, Joe, sitting with you is that >> just how much you have to work to have a normal day.
>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
>> And I think that's where it's not so much about dealing with the depression and getting out of bed. It's really changing the way that you relate to your depression. That this is something that sometimes happens to me. For whatever reason, I'm cursed in this way, which I know sounds crazy, but sometimes it can be useful to even think about it like that. But ultimately, changing that self-loathing is going to be a huge step forward.
>> Pause here, Joe. Thank you so much.
Absolutely.
>> Thank you so much. Appreciate that.
>> Thank you for sharing your story. Um Lamar, I saw you with your flag up. You want to go to the center?
Hey, how are you? What's your name, bro?
>> Lamar St. >> Lamar Ol. Thank you for coming up.
>> No problem. I would say that for me, I can't speak as to everybody's journey of where they've been in life, but as far as for me, I feel like this is like the conclusion. A little bit of background on me, I'm a Marine, so I've been in major conflicts. I've trained people for conflicts and everything. After being in those conflicts, I only had a week on how to adjust to being a civilian again.
After that week, I started sleeping in the closet for 6 months. Had all my meals given to me in the closet because I couldn't deal with anything out there.
thinking that after serving my country for eight years that I would come back to opportunities, jobs. I came back to a park bench that I slept on.
So, I feel like I was kind of like left behind, >> you know.
>> Well, you were >> I was left behind.
>> I've accepted everything that I've done as far as like my career over there and it haunts me a lot of things, you know.
It's taken over my life. When I got out, it feels like it's a starter package. I would talk to a mental health specialist. They would hear the problem and then it's like they put you in a category and be like, "All right, here's your trazadome. Here's your alozipine.
Here's your go out the door. Here you go."
If I tell you that doesn't work, then it's it was given to me like I was the problem. It almost seems like I was getting penalized for the medication not working.
>> Absolutely. Right. So, I'm getting the sense that you sort of got judged, that you were supposed to be a certain way, you were supposed to respond, you were supposed to get better, >> and you didn't get better.
>> No.
>> And then they they label you, they bucket you, they put you on on this track, it almost feels like.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. So, what's what's that like for you?
>> Well, that's why I say it feels like a conclusion because after that doesn't work, my my only question is what's next? I've done the the meditations, self-help, uh believe in yourself, you know, go to groups, uh do this, do that. I've done all that and still I'm left with the same conclusion that it doesn't work.
>> So, Lamar, I mean, I I think what's really challenging about this is clearly something is left over from your time in the Marines, right? You're not the same person who went over I don't know where you were, but does that kind of make sense?
>> Yes. And then when you came back, they said, "Okay, for people who aren't able to integrate, take tradone, take Loxipine." Those are heavy-hitting medicines, by the way. Um, and then if you don't get better, then do this, then do this, then do this, then do this. And you're a guy who tried it all. It sounds like you've tried meditation. I'm sure you've tried therapy.
>> I try everything.
>> And if I were to tell you, Lamar, there is something that will help you. There's something that will help you a lot.
How would you receive that?
>> I think that at that point after being through everything I've been through, I would have to put you in a category cuz I would ask you, is it medication?
>> It's going to be group therapy. It's going to be constantly checking in. Like I haven't seen anything different across the board is what I'm trying to say.
>> Great. So good. So now we have a different kind of problem.
>> Okay.
>> Which is that you have learned that something won't work.
>> I think I was taught that something working all this time.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Right, Lamar. I I think the problem here is that the reason nothing is working is because I don't think anyone has really understood what you struggle with.
>> So, where do we go from here?
>> We understand you, man. We understand what's it like. Why were you in the closet?
>> Because just a little bit of history just real quick.
>> Yeah.
>> I did everything in reversal. I graduated from high school in 03 going through a recession in Dallas, Texas.
There was no jobs. I was working warehouses at the time. Three years later after the contract, I go into the Marine Corps and then I take three tours. My job description changed from heavy mechanics and helicopters to now I'm 03 infantry, heavy machine gunner.
Then I switch again to intel. Now I'm doing interrogations throughout the night. And these interrogations ain't ain't, you know, um >> Yeah.
>> But I'm also telling my command, I'm tired. I'm tired. They're thinking physically. I'm talking mentally.
>> Yeah. So, let me say say this, Lamar.
What you just shared with us, I cannot stress this enough profoundly affects every dimension of who you are.
Affects your heart, affects your lungs, affects your cortisol level, affects your mind, affects the way that you cope with things, affects the way that you survive.
Cuz you have to survive this. I don't think anyone can help you unless we understand the ways in which you're broken. You get me, man? We can't.
There's no way people sort of labeling you and sort of saying, "Oh, like Loxipine is going to fix this and Trazadone is going to fix this." That doesn't even begin to touch the surface.
I think if you want any any chance, you have to have someone understand you, right, and and what you struggle with on a day-to-day basis.
>> I think that you can have people that have empathy, but to understand on on that surface level, I don't think I've came across that.
>> I believe you, man.
>> Yeah. But I'm saying like even though you believe me and all this, what does it do for me? What does it do for me?
You know what I mean? Like what does that do for me? After we finish all this, guess what? I'mma go back to that house. I'mma sit down and I'mma contemplate my life. You feel me? I'mma contemplate it. I contemplate it every day. And it's been going on for so long that now at this point, like I said, >> you've been alone with this, right?
>> Yeah. Most definitely. I don't try to put it I don't try to be a burden on nobody. I don't think anybody wants to be a burden on anybody is what it is.
You know what I'm saying?
>> So, Lamar, I I know this is going to sound empty.
Here's my experience. I've worked with I've done a lot of work with veterans.
First thing that I learned is y'all don't come back the same. Each and every one of you comes back a little bit different.
>> Second thing is I don't know that there's anything that I can do or anyone else can do that will actually help you.
I don't know that man. Whatever happened over there was so bad. And there's a new diagnosis by the way called moral injury which is a form of PTSD that is not when something happens to you. Moral injury is when a good person is made to do bad things >> or when a good person watches someone else do bad things. That breaks us in a different kind of way. I will say though that what I'm hearing is that people haven't really understood you and that you've been doing this alone. And I don't know that this is I can't predict the future. I don't know you. Maybe this I'm I'm an arrogant guy who says this, but I would say that since you like analogies, if I take my car to the the shop and no one understands what's wrong with it and people start fixing it, that's what people have been doing with you.
>> Yeah.
>> They've been saying, "Hey, man, this is going to work. Hey, man, this is going to work. Hey, man, this is going to work." Now, as I say this to you, what are you feeling, Lamar? I see you shaking.
>> I'm shaking cuz like I said, after hearing the same thing, it feels repetitive. Feels like I'm in a loop.
Like it just feels like a loop.
>> What What's it like to be stuck in this loop?
>> Every every day I I feel like might be my last. Like you know what I mean?
Might might be my last.
>> Lamar, I'm I'm I'm grateful to you.
>> Grateful. Yeah.
>> Um and and I know it sounds kind of weird. I I can see that you're really struggling. I can see that every day. On the one hand, it feels inevitable and on the other hand, it feels like one day you're going to be off the loop and you're never going to come back, right?
>> Feels that way. And I think the beautiful thing about this, and I know it sounds weird to call it beautiful, is it blows my mind how many people feel the way that you do. There are a lot of people out there that have come back from war, have been cops, have been firefighters, and when they're when they look at you, when they see you, I think what they see is someone who is like them, that they're not alone in this world.
>> Yeah.
>> And I don't know if if we can fix you, man. But I certainly know that if you're alone, it's going to be way harder.
>> This is my exotic rising sometimes. It's okay.
>> All right, we're going to pause here.
Lamar, thank you.
>> Snap some to Lamar.
My next surrounded claim is you can be productive and successful while still being deeply depressed.
>> All right, Ian, your flag was up. You ready to go to the center?
>> What's up, man?
>> How you doing?
>> What's your name, bro?
>> Ian.
>> Ian Olaf. Nice to meet you, man.
>> All right, so I think my first problem is I see a bunch of women with red flags and I'm immediately attracted to them.
>> Okay, >> the red flags. Um >> Oh, gotcha.
I want to say like everyone in this circle is aing hero. There are days where just getting to live to the end of the day without doing something yourself is the hardest thing to do and we all did it. I would like to stay in touch with everybody because I think we can help each other better than your your uh training because we have lived it and we know what it's like. I would say like on the surface people would consider me a successful person. I'm a musician as well. Uh the difference is I don't like music. I'm just good at it. I used to love it. I don't want to do it anymore.
I wanted to be a therapist like you cuz I want to help people. And I think like just from the experience is the real education. Being depressed is the education. I'm divorced.
>> Okay.
>> My I woke up one day and noticed my ex-wife's phone was on Snapchat and found out she was cheating on me.
>> Okay. I laid on the floor for three days and did not eat. I wanted to die. I've kind of wanted to die ever since that.
Zero stars. Would not recommend.
>> Okay.
>> I appreciate uh you know, anyone that's trying to help us, but I think we could help each other better than maybe a professional can.
>> Okay. So, it seems like that's what you want to talk about that y'all can help each other better than a professional can.
>> Sure. I mean I I think there's plenty of evidence that uh there are different kinds of help. So a really good example of this is so I do a lot of addiction psychiatry. So there are certain ways that I can help people but uh what we know from tons of studies is that peer support is huge for helping people. Um I remember my favorite moment of medical school was attending an alcoholics anonymous meeting and it was so incredibly powerful. It is a kind of help that that human beings can get from each other called peer support which is very different from psychiatry and I think most of the studies show that both help in different ways but if you were to say that you can help everyone here around you um in a way that maybe I can't um which is an interesting conjecture because you're assuming that I haven't struggled with depression um yeah I mean I I would agree with you I I think that that's >> I don't think I said you >> cuz I did say that uh I wanted to be a therapist too because and maybe that's why you ended up here but I think it's more like the experience is the teacher.
>> Sure.
>> Do we want to do you want to talk about you a little bit or not so much?
>> Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit?
So you said uh you know on the on the outside people would see you as successful. What's on the inside?
um much like the last musician, a lot of self-criticism, a lot of discouragement, a lot of and just in general not thinking I've done enough, thinking I've let everybody that believed in me down.
>> So I I'm curious when you were growing up, did you find that like whether you were happy or not depends on the people around you?
>> It depends a lot on the women in my life if I'm happy or not.
>> Yes. Can you say more about that?
>> Yeah. Um I mean I know that I need external validation especially from women to be happy.
>> Okay.
>> Right. Um so perhaps growing up like my parents were very supportive maybe.
>> Were they supportive or did you find that they were very conditional with their love or support?
>> H um I don't know if I would know the difference.
>> Okay. So I think that's telling. So, so here's something that I've seen and and there's also research um about this, which is that, you know, a lot of times people who are very successful >> and very unhappy on the inside, a couple of things. One is when you beat yourself up, you work harder than everybody else.
>> I do. Yeah, >> for sure.
>> So, that's number one. Second thing is that often times people who are like this believe that there's a choice between happiness and success. It's interesting. There's a term called psychic amputation where you like lop off a part of yourself in order to become successful. Like you have to sacrifice.
>> Oh my god.
>> Oh [ __ ] >> This guy's good. He's pretty good, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> So I just saw your eyes light up. So >> there are things that you want to do, but what do you say to yourself when you want to do something? When I was trying to be good at guitar, when I was coming up, I sacrificed so much socialization just to sit in my room and twiddle my fingers on the instrument because I was like, I'm not where I need to be. It's not time to party yet. I was in a punk rock band. I didn't do any drugs. What the hell?
>> You deny yourself a lot of enjoyment.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. You make sacrifices to become successful.
>> Right.
>> Now, let me ask you this, okay? When you deny yourself a lot of enjoyment, >> does it kind of make sense that your happiness with yourself would go down?
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz a lot of like what makes us happy is when I'm like, I want a cupcake and then I eat a cupcake then I feel good on the inside.
>> I don't eat any cupcakes. You see my revenge body right here.
>> I I see it. Right. So when you don't get that happiness from yourself, where do you think it has to come from?
>> Um, it has to come from outside sources.
Oh. Oh. Oh. therapy, >> right? So, and and and in your case, which outside sources?
>> From women.
>> There we go.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, now you're kind of stuck because now you've sort of created this system where if I were to tell you, eat a cupcake.
>> No.
>> No.
>> Right. Do you want a cupcake?
>> Yeah. I'll take I would like gota worry about abs though. Like that's >> right. So, and and you need abs. Why?
>> So that women will like me, >> right? And then if women like you, then how do you feel?
>> Great.
>> Great. So you've got to make a decision, Ian. I mean, this is only for you to do.
Is do you want to continue living life the way that you have or do you want to allow yourself to be happy with things that you want, giving yourself those things?
>> So I've been instilled with this mentality that if I work hard, like we're all told this as a kid, you're going to get what you want.
>> Um How's it working out? Not not well.
>> So, you want to change it?
>> Uh, so stop working hard and get what I want.
>> That's not what I asked. Do you want to change that?
>> Oh, yeah. Yes. Okay. Of course.
>> It's just a hard society, you know. I I got divorced and found out I was 5'7 and nobody likes that. So, y >> that's hard one to for you to fix.
>> And and Dr. Okay. Could we also I think there's like a specific thing that you're alluding to here, the the need for validation from women. You know, I think there's going to be a lot of guys who might be watching this video who feel that specific need.
>> Uh could you kind of get that on more specifically?
>> I think um so we live in a society where validation from women and this is what's really interesting is amongst dudes is the way that we get respect. It's not even about the women. It's actually amongst dudes. So, you know, if you're someone who really struggles with being very, very susceptible to needing validation, I think a lot of this is because you've been programmed to let parts of yourself go. As long as you are not happy with yourself, you will be dependent on the people around you to get that sense of happiness. And just to give you just a tiny little example, so I struggled to date. I was just terrible at it for many years. And then I decided to become a monk. and I decided to be celibate. And then I was like, I'm done with with women. I'm done. I'm going to just be celibate for the rest of my life. And it turns out that once I found peace with that, that's when I met my wife.
>> It's really bizarre.
>> Um, we're not going to do that, but thank you.
>> We got to pause here.
>> We got to pause here. Thank you, Ian.
Thanks, Dr. >> Thank you so much. Yeah.
>> All right. Uh, Megan, I I saw your flag up. Do you want to go to the center?
Hey Ol, nice to meet you.
>> I think for me um my depression kind of stems from this sort of perfectionist mindset that I have for myself. And I feel like I can't get to a sense of success or um self-acceptance because I feel like nothing I do is ever good enough for myself. And every time I reach those goals, I set higher ones for myself. And it's just kind of a neverending like I'll never be good enough, so why try kind of mentality?
>> And um do you find that being perfectionistic helps you? It it kind of keeps me going in in a sense that like I feel like, you know, kind of what Ian said. I feel like if I just work hard and keep going, that'll kind of get what I want. But it almost feels like that gets farther and farther away the harder that I try.
>> Yeah. But it does keep you moving, right?
>> It does. Yeah.
>> And so if you didn't have that to keep you moving, what would happen?
>> Yeah. We just kind of stop trying. I think >> you'd stop trying.
>> Yeah.
>> And And so what are you trying for? What are you trying to achieve?
>> I think um just happiness, self-acceptance, um success >> and what would you have to be in order to be comfortable to accept yourself, right? You want to accept a certain version of yourself. Right.
>> Right. The version I have in my head that I feel like is just like the perfect like I I don't make any mistakes. I'm I'm good at everything. I have everything that I need or desire and I don't have any flaws I suppose.
>> How did that become the standard? Why did you need to be so good?
>> Comparing myself to others is a big one.
>> Okay.
>> So, I'll see others and what they're doing and think that I need to match that or be better than that.
>> Okay. And um if you were if you aren't perfect, how do you feel about yourself?
>> I don't like myself.
>> Do you remember a time that you did like yourself? when I was a kid, just as I got older into high school and everything, I just kind of stopped feeling good about myself.
>> So, I I think it's a really really really common problem.
>> I think sometimes we forget that um human beings didn't evolve to be happy.
>> We evolved to function. And so, you may wonder like, you know, why is why is depression a part of how we experience things? And I think sometimes people who are very perfectionistic um you know there are a couple things.
The first is that it helps you actually it's a huge motivational component right because if I want to be better then I motivate myself and I keep pushing myself I beat myself up until I achieve this thing and then once I achieve that thing then I will be happy. Um, so I think the first thing is that this doesn't get better.
Because if I were to if I were to tell you, okay, Megan, you should learn to love and accept yourself. Would you actually do that?
>> It's easier said than done.
>> Easier said than done. What would stop you from doing it?
>> The like negative thoughts in my head of just not feeling good enough.
>> Not feeling good enough. Right. Right.
And so I I think there there's a element there that you can look for, which is that if you were to accept yourself, what would happen in your life? Let me ask you that. What would your life look like if you had self-acceptance?
>> I think I'd be happier. I'd be less hard on myself.
>> Would you do stuff?
>> Yeah, I would.
>> So, that's actually really good. So, sometimes people get stuck in this perfectionism and they get dependent on it for motivation. It doesn't sound like that's the case with you.
>> Um, so I'm going to share another concept which is, you know, I think comparison is a huge part of perfectionism. Um, one really interesting thing about perfectionism is that it's not like a diagnosis, but it is actually a way that our brain thinks, >> um, predisposes you to things like depression and anxiety.
>> And so, the other thing that I would strongly strongly encourage you to do is to focus less on comparisons, but notice how much your mind compares. Mhm.
>> This is where this gets a little bit more eastern, but basically we have this sense of ego or identity and I like this is who I am and I want to be this thing.
>> But that's like an idea in your head.
It's not really who you are. And another really common thing that happens when we're perfectionistic is we compare our insides to other people's outsides.
>> So let me ask you this. This is going to be really kind of focused. Um, when you do a good job, what are the reasons that your mind comes up with?
Like, why did you do a good job?
>> What does it say?
>> Like, if I worked hard at something, it'll say like, you worked hard at that.
You deserve that.
>> Really? It'll say that >> sometimes.
>> What What else does it say?
>> Um, >> does it say you got lucky?
>> Sometimes. When somebody else does a good job, what does your mind say about why they did a good job?
>> That they're just good at it or they >> talented.
>> They're talented. They're lucky. They just they just got it.
>> They just got it.
>> Yeah.
>> And when you do a good job, are you talented or lucky?
>> I don't often consider myself that. No.
>> Yeah. So, this is really important. um where it's it's so interesting because there's research that shows that when people attribute other people's successes to talent or hard work, but their own successes to things like luck or circumstances or stuff like that, literally you're judging yourself on a different standard from the way that you're judging other people. And as long as you do that, then this will continue.
And what some people find is helpful is when somebody else does a good job to ask yourself, how did that other person get lucky? And when you did a good job, what did you do to deserve it? And it sounds like you're actually sort of halfway there because you do that sometimes.
>> Yeah, I do catch myself um you know, thinking those things, but then it just goes right back to like the thoughts of like, well, if you were good enough, you would you would be able to be as successful as them, but you're not. So, >> yeah. So, I I would really tunnel down into how you learned that you're fundamentally not good, >> right? Because a lot of that is like you are striving. So are you're down here and you want to be perfect because you're up here. The question is where did you get the idea that you're down here to begin with?
>> Yeah, that makes we're going to pause here. Thanks Megan.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh Kashish, you ready to go?
>> Hello.
>> Hi, I'm Kashish.
>> Kashish all look. Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you. So, I'm someone who also feels like um no matter how much I accomplish, the bar is always raising.
As if like um if I get into the law school I want, the next thing is like I have to pass the bar, get a job, and it just keeps going and snowballing. So, it's hard for me to feel satisfied with my success. And I think I've correlated my happiness with it from like the beginning. But I'm also very self-aware of it. So, I'm not sure what should be done.
>> Seems super self-aware.
>> Yeah. So, I'm not sure what should be done for people like me who know the problem but are just unsure of how to go about it.
>> Yeah. So, um, is your happiness correlated with your success?
>> It has been from when I was a kid, and it's I still struggle with that sometimes.
>> What were you taught as a kid?
>> The better you are, the more people like you in the sense of like I was always in the honors programs, getting first place in sports and everything. And I it just kept getting reinforced because I think society rewards productivity and success more than just mental well-being or soft skills.
>> Yeah. What would your parents say about mental well-being versus getting an A? I mean, they would ideally want me to score well, but my parents have never had as high expectations of me as I do of myself. So, usually it's me where I would be like upset in second grade cuz I got a 9.5 out of 10 and they'd be like, "Oh, that's a great score. You're doing amazing." I just like couldn't believe that cuz it wasn't perfect.
>> Do you want that to change?
>> Yes.
>> Are you sure?
>> Yes.
>> Why?
>> Because it's honestly miserable always wanting to meet the next goal and the goal is always going to keep raising. I don't think there's like a solution out of it. I see it as kind of like a circular problem where once I meet the goal, I just go to the next one and it just keeps going and going and going and it seems like the only way out of it is getting rid of that attachment from success and happiness.
>> So, this is going to be a bit hard. So, I'm going to ask you a question.
>> Mhm.
>> Do you want this to change?
>> I'm not sure actually.
>> There we go. Right. So, I asked you, do you want it to change? and then you said yes and now I asked it again and you're saying I'm not sure. So walk us through >> where's the conflict?
>> The conflict is um the reinforcement you get from being successful and like gaining all of it. It just makes me feel more loved and desired or seen as well.
And since I've attached my worth to my happiness to my achievements, it just feels like that's the only way for me to be happy. But I'm also very well aware that that's not true.
>> Very good. Okay. So, so now we come to a really interesting problem which is that you know intellectually this is not good.
>> Yes.
>> Right. But there is a part of you that still wants it.
>> Yes.
>> Right. You know and and as someone who had aspirations to go to Harvard myself, this is something that I struggled with a lot as well. But it comes down to the nature of happiness. So this is going to be a little bit different. But what is happiness?
>> I feel like my answer would be like happiness is is success success but not anymore. or I'm trying to change that.
>> No, no, don't don't don't don't you change it. Yeah. So, when you what you feel happy when you're successful?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. So, right.
>> Mhm.
>> So, then but what does success do in you that makes you happy?
>> It makes me feel as if I'm valuable as if my skills are being put to good use.
As if I'm useful maybe. Otherwise, if I'm just like in bed or not doing anything, I just feel like awful. Like I should be doing something or like I should be maximizing my time.
>> Okay. When you say you should be maximizing your time, you feel tortured, right? Yes.
>> So, there's a lot going on in your head.
And when you are maximizing your time, what's going on in your head?
>> The busier I am, the less I have to think about my feelings and my thoughts and >> Great. Great. Great. Great. Great.
Great. Okay. Okay. Good. Good. Good. So, the busier you are, the less you think.
>> Yes.
>> The more tortured you are, the more you think.
>> Yes.
>> Right. When we become content, I want everybody to think about this. I want something. Oh my god. I want this person to say yes when I ask them out on a date. I want to go to Harvard. I want to do this. I want to do this. Wanting.
Wanting. Wanting. Wanting. Wanting. A lot of mental activity. Mhm.
>> Sitting at the beach looking at the sun >> can still be torture if I'm thinking about all the stuff that I should be doing.
>> If you look at the nature of contentment, I want a cookie. There is activity in the mind. Once I get my cookie, there's nothing in the mind.
There is a certain kind of thing that brings your mind to a calm state.
>> And if you can duplicate that calm state without being dependent on success, then you will be happy.
>> Sorry, we got to pause and move on to the next participant, but thank you, Kush.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> All right. Uh Mileen, your flag was up.
You ready to go to the center?
>> Hey, >> Dr. K. You're Dr. >> Yeah.
>> Mileen.
>> Mileen.
>> Nice to meet you, Milene.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Yes. I do believe that you can be um productive and successful. And the reason that I say that is because I've dealt with suicidal ideiation for the majority of my life. for as long as I could remember. Last year I had um a pretty bad episode. I could not get up out of my bed. I refused to do anything for myself. I lost a ton of muscle. Um I lost the ability to be confident myself.
But the one thing that I was able to do was take my dog out for a walk. even if I'm going through what I'm going through, I'm not going to abandon my dog. I'm not going to abandon my partner. Um, and I think that's a success. um you know and I would like to bring this up because today ironically is my dad's birthday and um he did pass and I wanted to share my story because I want to be productive and by being here and talking about it sharing and listening to people's stories um that's that's a goal that I have succeeded in by sitting here.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I I think it's sounds quite exhausting, actually, cuz I I I can see how hard you try.
>> Yeah.
>> I get the sense that you're always trying to move forward. Um, and that you're not letting the people or animals down around you, right? That that there are lots of things that you're you're that your depression may win on, but you're going to take your dog for a walk every single day because it deserves that.
>> Yeah. Um, I'm so curious. What's it like? I mean, you said you've been suicidal since it sounds like you were quite young.
>> Yeah. Growing up, I was never really encouraged to express my emotions. I grew up in a religious household where um they believed that depression wasn't a thing. They tell me to pray. And, you know, I have nothing against religion, but I also wanted to feel seen. The lack of that took a toll on me and I I bottled it all in and since it's never been addressed. It's so heavy. Yeah.
>> On your heart and you mentioned it earlier that you know it's it reflects on your body and I feel it so much in in like my chest and my heart and it it weighs heavy and you have to put on this mask and just continue on as if as if you're okay. Um >> yeah. So listening to your story, Mileen, I'm I'm struck by something, you know, I've seen which is just so unfortunate as as a psychiatrist, which is there's the burden of depression and then there is the burden of not dealing with depression in the right way. So you actually carry two burdens, right? There's there's all of the negativity that maybe was there at baseline and then there is the rejection from your family. There's the forcing yourself to put on a mask. there's pushing all those emotions down. Half of what I I really struggle with as a psychiatrist is helping people unlearn the things that helped them survive >> like unlearning the habits or unlearning the experiences >> both but I was talking about more about the habits. So, so when you when you grow up with depression >> you have to adapt to survive >> right >> and then those adaptations sometimes become maladaptive >> later on.
>> Yeah. But then the problem is you can't just take those away, >> right?
>> Right. Because if you take that away, you're left with nothing or too much emotion or you're in bed all day or all these kinds of things. And that's why it's so like tricky that you have to like unlearn something while learning something else. And it it's really hard.
>> Yeah. And that's why I focus on alignment. You have to align your habits with your goals. Even if I'm unhappy at that moment, if I change that habit, it'll change the outcome and the result of how I feel about what what comes out of it all.
>> Does that work?
>> It's worked so far.
>> We have to pause here cuz we're out of time.
>> Thank you, Mileen.
>> My final surrounded claim is that if therapy didn't work for you before, it doesn't mean that nothing will.
>> Alexander, are you ready to go to the center?
Hi, nice to meet you.
>> Thank you for coming.
>> Nice to meet you, Alex.
>> So, I'm curious to know what made you choose this uh particular claim to bring to this.
>> Uh so, I I think that somewhere along the way, we started saying that there's a right way to deal with depression. We said go to a psychiatrist, take a medication, go see a therapist. And there are a lot of people who are struggling and we said this is the answer. This will help. This will fix you.
And um my experience has been that that isn't always the case.
>> And there's a ton of new research. Um the wildest of which weirdest trial I've seen to date is uh for a stool transplant, which is what it sounds like. We take stool from one human being and then we transplant that stool into another human being. And it turns out, yeah, it turns out that this has been shown to improve depression because the bacteria in your gut produce tryptophan and tryptophan is a serotonin precursor.
>> And when we boost serotonin transmission in the brain, it sometimes helps people with depression.
>> For far too long, I think we've assumed that depression is a mental illness, >> whereas I think there's a lot of physiology to it. And so, I think there's still a lot of options out there.
Yeah, I mean I know there's the only so much that psych psychiatrists or psychologists can do when you're in therapy. They only have an hour to diagnose quickly treat or figure out something a quick solution for them in and out especially like in America for healthcare and stuff like that. But what kind of protocols do you think would help other people who are struggling that maybe aren't seen or like instead of just oh here's a medication try this and see what happens and what are the like traits that you would say oh this person would need something else.
>> So one thing that's really interesting is there's uh evidence of inflammation in the brain with depression. So as your inflammation level goes down there is a good chance that depression improves.
There are studies that the one study from 2003 found that exercise was just as effective as therapy in treating depression. Um it certainly helped some.
I think there's a new wave of evidence-based psychotherapies what we call the third wave. These are basically like the eastern things. So mindfulness um a big uh thing that I think people can learn how to do this is a skill is to be cognitively flexible. So often times in depression our mind thinks one way and then we think to oursel that's the way that it thinks learning to think >> therapy >> not necessarily CBT but CBT is a a portion of this literally holding contrary views at the same time.
>> Um so even though if I break up with someone I may think to myself I'll be alone for the rest of my life and this was a terrible waste of my time. At the same time, it can also be true that one relationship gives you more experience to be successful at the other one. So, holding contrary claims is another really big thing. Um, dietary changes, we know that certain kinds of gut bacteria will actually improve depression. I think there's a lot out there that can be really helpful.
>> I understand that cuz a lot of the therapies that people go through are the talk therapy and the medication therapy.
I've been on SSRIs for a very long time.
I recently stopped taking them for the past maybe five years and I found that it really didn't help. But the other forms of therapy I've tried, they help, but it's I always get back into the loop of where like then I go through two weeks of, oh man, I don't enjoy this anymore. I don't enjoy I get the the anhidonia or the lack of motivation to do the things that I used to like or I'm not getting the same ump from what I was doing. What are the treatments after that? What are what am I supposed to do?
>> Yeah. So I I I think you know what I'm hearing is and this is unfortunate.
Sometimes you can do everything right.
>> Mhm.
>> And you can still feel like [ __ ] >> Mhm.
And there somewhere along the way we got this idea that if I do more right stuff, it'll fix it. It'll fix it. And I think this the thing that scares me the most as a psychiatrist is that it doesn't always work.
>> It hurts that people have to try so hard to just not drown, >> you know, and and I wish I had an answer that there was some way to make everything better. I think that's the real struggle. There's something really weird that I've seen happen and I wish I knew how to make it happen, which is sort of accepting that you know what, this is something I'm going to have to deal with for the rest of my life.
>> That once you sort of accept that, there's sort of a burden that can be eased up on. And then once there's a little bit of that easing of the burden, things feel a little bit easier. The weight becomes easier to carry. And I don't think it fixes everything, but I've seen some people really do get way better and then everything else starts to work a little bit more. But I think there is that fundamental like grappling with the unfairness of being born with the curse of depression.
>> Okay, we got to pause there. Thank you.
>> Yeah, thank you so much, Alex.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh Taylor, >> hi. How you doing?
>> Hey, Taylor. How are you? Fist bump.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> People coughing up in here. Sorry.
>> I'm one of them. Okay, >> I have reached a place I'm not a big fan of psychiatry, no shade. And uh have been in therapy for a number of years.
I've done group, I've done individual, I've done cognitive behavioral therapy.
That was my favorite.
>> Okay.
>> Hence the, you know, and then I do a lot of grounding exercises. As far as my depression goes, it's changed over time.
The one that I suffer from now, unfortunately, is PMDD.
>> Okay.
>> Which is the pre-menstrual depression.
>> Uhhuh. And it is horrific in a sense that I'm very confident. I'm funny. I'm cute. My body is tea. I get money. But every two weeks my world is about to get rocked. And there's nothing I can do about it. I just strap in, buckle up, and just wait for the freight train to come. And it is so unfortunate as far as that goes. It's just like, where are you left with that, you know? And then I'm also in a place where I have been on the front lines politically and I also benefit from certain privileges in my life like we're not in a war torn country and uh that is kind of where I find joy which is actually awful to say nonetheless is like I don't take those smaller things for granted right what happens when you can't do anything about it at all it's just like what does one do at that point I heard you talk about Buddhism and that was really exciting to me because that's what saved me.
>> Okay.
>> I uh I was raised Catholic which is rough and then uh when I got sober uh I was introduced to spirituality.
>> Okay.
>> Would you say that the spiritual realm and the spiritual practice and even a metaphysic practice can be a solution in this sense where there's nothing else working?
>> Absolutely.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Um would you like to hear more?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. So let's start with some data.
>> Okay.
>> So what's you know something really interesting you were talking about how you know there's a lot of terrible stuff going on in the world today. One of the things that I found really confusing is why all survivors of genocidal conflicts don't have PTSD.
>> Wow. You know it's kind of weird right when we think about it. There's like terrible stuff happening and and like the bad stuff is happening to everybody.
Like that's the whole point of a genocidal conflict. But actually the majority of people don't end up psychologically traumatized in a way that impairs their function or debilitates them. One of the key things that we discovered when we tried to figure out why everyone who survived a genocidal conflict doesn't have PTSD is something called meaning making. So it turns out that our human brain has something called adaptive misbelief. So human brains are designed to believe in all kinds of things that may not be true. Mh.
>> And the reason is because it's like the height of psychological copium. We have to make sense of the world around us.
And this is what's really interesting.
I've worked with a lot of people with chronic pain. And I think this is a really hard situation because we can't really figure out what's wrong with you physically. There isn't a diagnosible thing that's going on. It's probably something in the brain, but um but there's nothing we can intervene on. So if like if you you know if you've got a stomach ache, but there's like nothing wrong with your stomach, then you just have to deal with the ache. So I think this is where making meaning, making sense of your suffering is a huge part to finding relief, >> right?
>> And if you look at some of these Eastern spiritual perspectives, you know, they'll say that you can't control pain in life, but you do have some degree of control over whether you suffer or not.
>> Yes.
>> And and this is where there are certain evidence-based, you know, techniques. I practice a lot of stuff that is not evidence-based because I spent years studying in India. But I I I think that unfortunately as a doctor, I mean, you're talking about PMDD and how there's nothing you can do about it.
>> Yeah. You may not be able to fix that, but the way that you handle it, >> you can handle it in ways that seem to be better in the sense that you can achieve some degree of peace or you can handle it in ways that can enhance your suffering. There seems to be a lot of data to support that as well. I happen to think that that's true.
>> And we we got to pause there cuz we're out of time. Thank you, Taylor. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, yeah. Sorry.
>> Thanks, Larry.
>> Yeah.
>> Daniela, you ready to go to the center?
>> Hey, >> nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you, Daniela.
>> My depression was um it started in 2024 >> when I was diagnosed with um stage 4 Hodkins lymphoma.
>> Okay.
>> Which is a blood cancer. And honestly, I can say that in those um situations, there's really nothing that could have helped me other than being healthy.
>> Yeah. I mean, what um Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious. What are you thinking? I'm How am I going to respond to that? Do you have an idea?
I feel like there's nothing you can possibly do in that situation because you can't solve the root of the problem which is the cancer.
>> Yeah. So if we can't and I I agree with you there's tons of research that shows that people with diagnosed who are diagnosed with cancer experience depression. Interesting thing is that's that's not just a psychological thing.
It's also a physiologic thing is in stage 4 cancer your immune system is going whack. There's inflammation in the brain and and I think that this is like you know you're you're right that if you are diagnosed with something that could be a terminal illness that the most natural reaction is to be depressed.
I think that we also have um you know a subsp specialty of psychiatry of trying to help patients with cancer.
>> Um you know sometimes we help people cope with the prospect of death. We help them grieve the life that they could have lived which they no longer get to because of cancer. And I'd like to think that we're able to alleviate their suffering in some way, but I would not I mean, when you're someone who's been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer at quite a young age, I can't imagine that anything is going to fix that except for exactly what you said.
>> So, would you say in those situations therapy and psychiatry is kind of pointless?
>> Well, so that I would say no. and and I think there are plenty of patients I've worked with who have would would agree.
I think it depends on define pointless.
>> So my thing with psychiatry is um they kind of just help the person cope but they don't solve the root of the problem even not just in like cancer but in other situations.
>> Yeah. So I think when psychiatry um in some cases where it's practiced poorly that's what we do.
>> So I I think psychiatry is a field I think we made kind of a I don't know if this is a mistake. It feels like a mistake to me that we stopped accepting responsibility for patients happiness.
We started saying that we can teach you coping skills. That that's the best that we can do. We can't actually improve your life. We can just improve the way that you cope with your life.
I don't think that we do that all the time, but I think it happens way too much. which I think psychiatry as a field will throw in the towel very easily. Um, and that too is not necessarily our fault because I think there's a lot of stuff that we can't control. Like we can't cure people's cancer necessarily. Um, but I I do think that psychiatry when it's practiced in the best way is not about coping. Coping is just what we do to help people put the fires out. Then you get to the real work. I think coping is not the last step. It's the first step.
>> I'm sorry we have to pause there um and switch participants. But thank you.
>> Thank you.
Sterling, are you ready to go?
>> All right.
>> Hello.
>> Hello.
>> Hi. My name is Sterling. I use they them pronouns.
>> Okay. Nice to meet you, Sterling. Thank you for sharing your pronouns.
>> Yeah, happily. Um so something for me is I think therapy is like a good avenue and and psychiatry is a good uh door to open it up but I feel like there's outside components that need to be done at least in my personal experience to like continue like growing positive mental health.
>> Can can you share more about that?
>> Uh yeah like I do think like mental health and physical health is tied. So like sometimes it is internal as well as like external like your mental health versus your body trying to heal like old scars or old traumas and just finding the balance between like what can really make you happy and bring you the peace and joy that you're like looking for long term.
>> Yeah, I I mean I I completely agree. So I I think that you know when you say psychiatry is a as a start I think there is a portion of things that we can do and I think what we're discovering is that a lot of your mental functioning my mental functioning our brain exists within a body.
>> Yeah.
>> And the nature of the body can profoundly affect the mind. Um you know I learned this when I went to India and I started studying yoga. I I was in a really bad mental space.
>> Sure. And there's a lot of evidence that shows that when we do some of these mindbody practices like yoga or taichi, it rewires our nervous system which will then affect our mind. Um, so I completely agree with you and yeah, >> having moments or classes where I was able to put myself into my body, realize, oh, I carry shame here. Like physically, I was like embarrassed to dance or to try something new. And it's working the muscles to like be open to like healing and like loving yourself, which is something like I know I've struggled is just allowing myself to be okay or or sit in my emotions.
>> Yeah. And and what what has been your experience of working with your body?
>> Something I found like uh that I really enjoy is like uh stage combat. So it's just something that um it forces me to think how I react, how to keep my partner safe and just uh being beyond myself.
>> So there are two kind of I agree with you, but there are two things that I'd love to share.
>> One is um so there are some interesting studies that show that when people are depressed, their physiology is constricted.
>> So their heart rate stays in a very narrow range. And when we're healthy, our heart rate will kind of go up or down because we get excited and then we get sad, we get tired, we get happy. Um, and so there's there's literally evidence that shows that if you change your physiologic level of activity, Yeah. that it'll improve your depression. Um, and there's a really interesting version of this, which is sometimes when I would have patients uh who were having a panic attack, we tried one thing, which is we would step outside of my office and then we would run as fast as we can for 60 seconds in a park. And something really cool happens when you have a a panic attack is, you know, your heart rate is elevating, but if you actually push your body even more and you run really fast, then you feel exhausted at the end of that.
>> Yeah.
>> And when you feel physically exhausted, it actually slows down your your your heart rate, >> brings your respiratory rate under control, and in some cases can really help with the panic attack. And I I completely agree that I think the body is the most underutilized tool in the treatment of depression today. All right, we're going to pause there. Thank you, Sterling.
>> Thank you. One more.
>> Lucia, are you ready to go?
>> Lucia.
>> Luca. Nice to meet you all over.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Thank you for coming today.
>> Thank you. Um I did want to like mention like earlier she um what what was your name again? Yeah, Alex. Um was talking about how like some people do like workouts or like anything to like take their mind off of it. And I feel like I'm the poster child for that. like working out and like reading and all these other hobbies, but it still doesn't feel like enough for me. And same with therapy. And it's different for me because like I did group therapy and then I also did like DBT therap group therapy. like I still feel this like emptiness and this like shadow like following me because also my depression is different because I don't know if anybody else has like another mental health like that they deal with that kind of like coincides with their depression because for me I have I just got diagnosed last year with BPD. So my depression is like a whole I also have a problem with seeking validation not necessarily from women but like other people and I like sort of kind of immerse myself in other people's to find like me in a way and I just I don't know. Yeah. Um, Lucia, thank you so much for sharing that because I I I'm I'm glad that you shared um the sense of emptiness that comes with BPD. So, I think sometimes when we talk about depression, we think we talk about it like one thing, but depression is a way that you feel and there are lots of different contributions to that. So, uh I personally have learned so much from my patients with BPD. It's been some of the most rewarding and difficult clinical work I've ever had to do. So I'd like to just talk about BPD for a second if that's okay.
>> Yeah.
>> So for people who don't know there's a certain kind of depression where see we we walk we go through the world and I have a sense of who I am >> and I carry that with me wherever I go.
Right? So if someone calls me an idiot I have some sense that I'm not an idiot.
When someone has BPD that can be absent or very very quiet.
>> And so the way that they feel is literally determined like a vacuum. It's a void that gets filled up by the way that people treat them.
>> Yeah.
>> So if someone treats you really well, you feel great. And if someone treats you really poorly, you internalize that.
>> Yeah.
>> And so um couple of things about BPD is that it's actually one of the things that improves really well. So I I think like uh at 16 years out from diagnosis, 95 plus% of people actually won't qualify for the diagnosis anymore. So it is something that can get healed. But I I think that it's really really hard before it happens. And I think that a lot of the stuff a lot of the work that I do around BPD is about really getting in touch with who you are. It feels empty. It feels like a void. Um and then the reason that people get diagnosed with this is because >> they're they're they're missing often times there's trauma early in life. So >> I wanted to yeah touch on that is that like I am like also religious. I'm Jewish. I converted after I graduated in 2024 from high school. And like once again, like I've I've done all of these things. And I think also what makes it hard for me with my BPD is also like the amount of trauma that I've been through because >> I also went through a loss. Like I lost my father from COVID 6 years ago and he was never in my life. Like never knew him. And I also do seek my validation from relationships because I've never had that father figure before >> and it's like the abandonment of everything. And that's why also like I sought >> conversion also to like help me move through it. But >> like yet again like it still feels like >> there there isn't that like light for me because of how much like other trauma that I've experienced too.
And I I think that that's what's really hard. So So the thing is since since you're there's that kind of void inside.
I don't know if this makes sense.
>> Yeah.
>> The hopelessness can fill up that void and then you will feel you will feel full of hopelessness, you know, and and that's what I've seen with people with BPD is that when you're feeling down, it fills up every cell of your body and then it just it's so big.
>> Mhm. The good news, there is a way to find that stability within yourself, to find a sense of self that kind of like is a is a a life raft and and once it's kind of there, then people can really start to stabilize around it. And like I said, the outcomes from from BPD are actually quite good. Just because it is one of the most painful things, that has nothing to do with how long it will last. That has nothing to do with its permanence.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, we have to pause. We're out of time. Thank you, Luca.
>> Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
>> All right, we've come to the last part of the show. Dr. Kate, great job so far.
Um, we want you to look around the circle and you can select somebody you haven't spoke spoken to yet. Um, or somebody who you know you want to keep exploring what they're going through.
So, you can choose anyone in the circle, but just take a moment, select them, and then let us know why.
>> Okay. So, I have someone in mind, Lamar.
>> Okay. What? Lamar, let's let's go with you.
>> Uh Lamar, do you have a claim? Um because we'll actually start with you sharing your claim.
>> Uh I would have a claim, I guess, in my opinion that most therapists or psychiatrists don't truly believe in the ways in which to help. It's almost like you go to school long enough for something that you feel like you can't turn around now, like you've been in it, so let me just go forward and let me just >> play the game almost. You know, I hate to >> put stuff the way I think it, but it's like a game is just how I feel. But, um, I've heard what you've told others, and it's some things that I find to be quite out there.
>> Like what?
>> Like the swapping of the shite.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I like >> I think like this is the point that we've got to now. Like if someone gets my [ __ ] they going to be messed up for a little bit cuz >> Right.
>> Like, but you see what I'm saying? like now we're just throwing spaghetti against the wall hoping that it sticks.
I don't know.
>> Yeah. So, so I mean, so we can we can talk about that specifically if you want. I I agree. I mean, the reason I brought her up is cuz I thought it was like absolutely insane, >> right?
>> Um and then and then the even crazier thing, the even crazier thing, these people were insane to begin with, is that it worked. Well, I guess I guess my question would be for you then.
>> Out of every out of everyone that you've spoken to today, do you truly feel as if you've helped anybody at all?
>> Do I feel as if I've helped?
>> I don't know.
So, one of the key things I've learned in my life, Lamar, is to not trust what I feel, to act independently of what I feel. What do you do with those who just seem like they can't find a way out, can't get any better?
>> I mean, in my case, I keep trying. And I I love this question, by the way, Lauren.
>> Um, so one of the challenges that I have is I don't know when to give up on a patient because let's say I I work with let's say that we start working together and I work with you for two years and you don't get better at all.
>> Mhm.
>> Do I give up at that point or is 3 years maybe 3 years could do it? There's a conversation we'll have which is like okay therapy does not work psychiatry does not help you what now what are we going to do are you willing to not give up with me >> I guess up to a certain point but like I said we just keep on hitting our head against the wall then it's like at what point is it is it like I don't know what words to use but at what point is it stupid like >> yeah so so like I said I've I've had three patients in my career okay and I've seen somewhere between probably 500 and a,000 people that I really don't believe I've been able to help. Those are the three that I tried everything that I knew and learned a bunch of other stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> The other thing that I've learned which is really really hard, I know that this is going to have a lot of skepticism.
See the nature of depression is that even if you're getting better, you won't notice it.
>> How does that help? If you don't notice that you're not getting better, how does that help?
>> Because you are getting better. So, I'll give you a really This is weird, right?
I know this is weird. So, Twilight Zone.
I I I had a patient who came into my office once, couple years in.
>> And he said, "Dr. K, I'm just as bad as when I showed up, you know, like I I've been coming here for 2 years. I'm no better." And then I asked him, I said, "Well, how's your work going?" Because they had struggle trouble with work. And they said, "Work's fine now. I'm not getting in trouble anymore." I said, "How's your relationship going?" And he's like, "Relationship is going okay."
Like, they had troubles with their relationship, but they were doing better. Um, they started taking their cholesterol medication. there were many things in their life that had improved, >> but they didn't feel like it had improved. And then I I told him that day, I said, you know, I I think you're not depressed. I think you're unhappy.
And there's a big difference between those two things.
>> Doesn't one lead to the other?
>> I mean, we would hope so, right? And I think the two are connected. And one of the interesting things is that >> if you weren't in therapy, would you potentially be worse? It's hard to say because I've taken therapy and so it's like, you know what I mean? Like >> and Lamar like >> it's like a hydro almost like one head chop one off and two more grow back like >> and and and so that I I think I think you're dealing with a a profound sense of skepticism. I wouldn't even call it hopeless, but I I think you've learned that nothing seems to help. Like I said before, I think the biggest problem that people have had dealing with you is that they label you really fast and they think they know what will help.
>> Yeah, I think so, too.
>> But I've seen too many people in your situation >> Mhm.
>> who have gotten better. And so I stupidly, foolishly, I know it's dumb. I choose to keep trying because when I'm hopeless, I could be wrong. And when I'm hopeful, I could be wrong, too. So then the then we're left with one basic question which is when we don't know what's going to work. We don't know is it going to work? Is it not going to work? How are you going to respond to that uncertainty?
>> I don't think there's no direct answer to any of that. Like I think at this point I just roll with punches. Like I just rock with punches at this point.
I'm really running off of fumes in this last little bit of my life. Like I truly believe that. So >> yeah. I mean you've been running on fumes for a long time. They carry they can carry you way farther than you may have ever realized which is what's insane dude.
>> I think but see that's the point. It used to be I persevered through it like no matter what happens as long as I'm breathing I I keep on going >> but at this point now >> I done hype myself up hype myself up hype myself up >> doesn't work >> doesn't work no more. It ain't always rainbows and gum gumdrops. Like I mean it's the world is really shitty. Like it's not >> When was the last time it was rainbows?
Can you even remember?
>> Nah, not actually. Like I've been in survival mode so so long that when I see something that may potentially be a happy moment, I I shun away from that [ __ ] cuz I feel like it's a a fleeting moment like it's not for me type person.
>> Oh wow.
>> Yeah. I'm not going to lie.
>> So even even if there's a fleeting moment of happiness, you turn away from it.
>> I turn away from it because I I've been dealt shitty hands. You know what I mean? Like when the sky starts to open up, sun comes out, I'm looking at like, nah, where's the rain cloud at? Like, damn, how this cuz why everybody like this?
>> When someone turns away from the sun, how dark do you think their life is going to be?
>> Pretty sure it gets darker. But if when the sun is out and it's still dark, though, you know what I mean? Like >> you're the one who's turning away.
>> Yeah, because I've already been I've already been I guess conditioned.
>> I I want you to think about that for a second, Lamar. I I don't doubt that you believe this for a good reason because you've learned, right, that even though there's sun, it ends up being rain clouds anyway.
>> Yeah.
>> This protects you.
>> It does.
>> From being disappointed.
>> It does.
>> But it traps you.
>> Yeah. There's pros and cons and it most definitely is pros and cons. So, because I don't know how to really cope with this, >> the only thing I can do is just to lock it away and lock myself away. You know, no matter how it sounds, no matter how crazy it may look like to anybody else, I know the reason why I do it. You know what I mean? So, >> let me ask you this, Lamar. When people try to help you like a therapist, do you still keep it locked away? Yes, you do.
>> Yes, I do.
>> Yes, you do.
Now, we have another problem, which is that there are people around who want to carry it with you, but you won't give us a chance.
>> No.
>> Cuz I've tried that before.
>> You have?
>> I've tried, but I always got rejected. I always caught the bad hand of it all. So after a while of getting your hand hit too many times, you don't want to put your hand out there no more. You feel me?
>> What was it like for you to come here today?
>> Hard. Hard. Like real hard. Like crowds and groups and [ __ ] Like I don't do that.
>> What do you think that some of these people who are sitting around us? What do you think they think about you?
>> I guess some would say it's brave. I guess some would say whatever, but I I honestly don't know. I don't really think if they did think that you were brave. I guess at this point it wouldn't matter cuz I've been called brave for other things.
>> Do you run away from it?
>> Do I run away from it?
>> Respect from other people. Appreciation.
>> Yes, I do. Actually, because like I say, it's not Yes. It's It's not an everyday occurrence on to me. It's a fluke. It feels like a fluke. You know what I mean? I don't know how to put it, but I just don't feel like it's real. Like it's based in reality for me.
>> Yeah, I get it. Let me tell I felt better being in the war zone than when I left the war zone. Only because it's not fake. If you don't like me, you don't like me. If I don't like you, I don't like you. But there's no fakeness in between it. I get more scared being out of war because of all the masks that being worn by people. You see what I'm saying? So that's another reason why I just >> It's simpler over there.
>> It's It's way simpler over there. And I think it's not so much the war that has people messed up. I think it's just being in that situation so much that it becomes like home to you. It becomes like something that you need. I I had a sense of worth. Uh but when I got out, I don't know what changed. I try to I try to be that Marine that comes back It's just shitty, man. It's just shitty.
It's not what was told to me. Like, you do this, get the honorable discharge, and America take care of you. Like, all this type of stuff. So, I've been fed all this. I believed it wholeheartedly.
There we go. Like, I'm I held on to that hope.
This to be shattered, man. Just to be shattered in a way that touched my my Achilles heel. Like, I've never been touched like that before. Like hurt, all that type of stuff. after serving and and doing all this is just to be tossed away.
Ain't nothing you can really tell me at this point because now I'm pissed. I'm in piss mode. Really, I'm pissed. You feel me? I'm beyond pissed. So when you try to come in with the ness, okay, that's cool. But in my mind, that [ __ ] temporary. We ain't got no connection like that. You're a good person. You're a good dude. I'm sure everybody's good in here. But at the end of the day, I just me personally, just the way my life has gone.
No, man. It's just this just ain't for me right now.
>> I'm I'm glad you're sharing your anger with me. You've been told a thousand times, do this and it'll work. And it's never worked.
>> It's never worked.
>> Never worked. And then there's this whole business about turning away from the sun. I think what's going to be really interesting is I I I don't know how to help you. I believe you can be helped. And I think there's something that I'm going to kind of leave you with, which is this is going to be a video that's going to be watched by millions of people.
And all those people are going to watch you and they're going to think something about you and they're going to say something about you.
I think what they say about you and what they think about you is going to be profound.
I wish there was a way that I could flip a switch in your head and have you receive that the way that normal human beings get to.
>> Yeah. Lamar, thank you for for coming all the way out here, man. And sharing, >> we we're out of time.
>> I I think I see a lot of strength and resilience, which really gives me hope.
It reminded me why I fell in love with psychiatry.
>> Oh, I think it was really healthy, very respectful. Um, he had a lot of interesting points. Kind of opened my eyes a couple times to some stuff, which a good therapist should do. Uh, generally speaking, it was very interesting to see where everybody was at emotionally and mentally with their part of their journey.
>> It took me a while to even open up about being depressed. And for years, I was ignoring it. And I thought, if I just pretend I don't have it, it's fine. It's so important to me that people talk more about it.
>> Thanks everybody in the circle for sharing. It was tremendously generous of you. If you're watching this video and and you're going through, you know, similar experiences, we hope that this video offered you some insight. Know that it's okay to not be okay and we see you. So, thank you for watching. We'll see you next time.
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